Brain Hacking Masterclass - Neurosurgeon, Neurologist & Psychologist | Dr. Alok, Dr Sid & Havovi,TRS
Author Name:Ranveer Allahbadia
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@ranveerallahbadia
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnlelCMXwUU
Transcript:
(00:00) Highly experimental beginning with my friends. We have a psychologist, a neuroscientist and neurologist in the same room. Take that little k. What do you think the overlapping part of all your fields is? >> The brain. The thing about the brain and neuroscience, everybody looks at it differently.
(00:21) What is fascinating about what you've done Ranir has got us all together here so we can see the the brain as a whole. There is an entire theory around the preffrontal cortex which is the evolved brain. Its main job is to not to decide what to do but to justify the decision that the subconscious brain is taking. >> Wow. Would you be open to taking >> I asked >> doctor licensed ketamine therapy >> because we are >> you just mentioned what's happening in the mind of a person who decides he wants to take his own life >> things that I've observed and seen is
(01:04) that they genuinely feel that they are >> so if we had to give advice to parents what advice would we give them >> make them fail If your kid has been succeeding all throughout school, parents would be very happy. But that's not a really safe thing. >> There's autism which is increasing in numbers.
(01:26) Uh probably 100 years from now more and more children might be born autistic. >> We should probably stop looking at autism as a disease and just think that okay all kids are born different. adult ADHD very hot term and it's almost become a status symbol >> to say this sad when people walk into my clinic and I say everything's fine with you they're like really >> I want my money back >> do you guys think it's useful for every young person to take a step back understand the structure working of their brain and their mind >> yes I think it's a big disservice that
(02:00) we don't teach neuroscience in school everyone should learn attempting something very new on the Ranir show. These are my three favorite brain experts. Havi Hyderabadwalla, one of our country's top psychologists. Dr. Sid Warrior, one of our country's top neurologists and Dr. Aloc Sharma, one of our country's top neurosurgeons.
(02:28) We spoke about the brain from every possible angle you can think of. We're trying to bring out more depth through these conversations. If you've enjoyed any of the neuroscience conversations that we've had on the Renvi show, I hope you watch this one till the end. Send in your feedback.
(02:44) We're going to be doing a lot more group episodes to bring you richer, more dense conversations. I'd love to hear your feedback in the comment section. But the experiment begins now. I had a blast, learned a lot and I hope that you feel the same way by the end of this very special episode of the RA show. Group podcast are here Highly experimental beginning with my friends. Some of the smartest people
(03:29) I've met in my life through the show are together in the same room. Take that nicl kas. >> Welcome to my beautiful brainy friends. >> Thank you for having us. >> We have we have a psychologist, a neuroscientist and neurologist in the same room. Yes. >> What do you three think the overlapping part of all your fields is? >> Uh you know the easy way to answer that is the brain.
(03:56) >> What's the harder way of answering the same question? >> Okay. Because okay we have a psychologist, a neurologist and a neurosurgeon. >> Mhm. >> The thing about the brain and neuroscience, it's the only field where the examiner and the examine is the same. You see when when you're studying cardiology the brain is studying the heart.
(04:19) When you're studying astronomy the brain is studying you know the planets. When you're studying neuroscience our own brains are studying the brain. It's the only field where this happens. >> And there are so many layers. You know the brain is the only organ of or the nervous system that's been not understood at all simply because of the layers and simply because as we were just discussing before everybody looks at it differently you know so psychologists from the time of Freud have looked at the brain differently and neurologists have looked at it
(04:50) differently more from a disease and a disorder point of view and neurosurgeons have looked at it differently again from what is structurally wrong in the brain and neuroscientists have looked at what's happening at the cellular level. So each one of us sees a different part of it. >> If the brain was an elephant, somebody seeing the trunk and somebody seeing the tail and somebody seeing the leg.
(05:10) >> What is fascinating about what you've done, Ranir, has got us all together here so we can see the the brain as a whole. Do you guys not meet meet each other in your regular lives or do you all meet each other in your regular lives? >> I actually do like I was telling the two of them that I have a very holistic practice.
(05:30) I never look at something as I'm going to fix everything for you. I can't do that and I'm very like honest and real about it. If I have not specialized in it, if someone's having migraines and I feel like it's not psychosomatic and it's actually a functional issue, I will hand it over to the experts. I will not go in that direction. So >> and it helps to meet and discuss cases from different aspects like he said you know like you're looking at an elephant and I will look at it from the trunk and the torso and the legs.
(06:00) So >> I mean eventually we do reach that same place because as a neurologist say if I've been treating migraine patients for the last 10 years I have realized more and more that without a psychologist that patient cannot be treated in their entirety. So as a neurologist there's a certain amount of stuff that I can treat in that patient but there is a psychological component to a lot of diseases which doctors would just sort of ignore or say that but we don't do that with any other disease right if I find that somebody's
(06:35) liver functions are abnormal I will involve a gastronologist but if I find that somebody's stressed why should I ignore it so very similarly in my clinic as well I I have a psychologist now who works with me full-time. So, we end up working together. >> I think something I've brought up in common in all your individual episodes is this statement about how uh neuro science is often about the hardware of the brain >> and then psychology is about the software of the brain.
(07:04) >> Yeah. >> I would like to know from you guys about that border between the two. >> You know, um >> I I basically believe there isn't a border. the they you know they there is a lot of overlap there. So you can't really separate it's like trying to say that bulb and the light uh can you separate the bulb from the light? >> So the hardware you know is without the hardware there would be no light.
(07:30) >> Okay. But just the hardware wouldn't give light. So we believe it's you know it's time we started looking at the brain as one. Now again just to let you know the the brain is again like uh it's called a holon or you know like there's a Greek god called Janus. >> You know about Janice Janus is a two-headed god Greek god.
(07:52) One head is in front, one head is at the back. The the month January is named after Janus because in January you look back at the year that's gone and you look ahead at the year that's coming. >> Wow. >> Now the thing about the brain it does two interesting things. It looks inwards at what is happening inside, okay? And it looks outward at what is happening with the brain.
(08:15) So the brain is this genus-like structure which is constantly evaluating what's going on. Your hunger, your thirst, your breathing, your respiration, everything in the brain. It's constantly monitoring all of that, right? At the same time, it's monitoring what's happening in the outside world and trying to merge both together.
(08:29) So the brain is really like the Greek god Janus >> and that's what makes it unique. M >> seems like there's too much pressure on it. >> There is there is >> it's unbelievable. I mean if you actually if you try to even think of what the brain is doing every second you know you'll completely collapse. Okay. I mean you know it's just because there are millions and millions of neurons.
(08:52) Okay. Now again a very fascinating thing about the neurons is the neurons are not one continuous wire. There's an interface between every cell. We're talking of 10 billion neurons and between each neuron there's a gap called a syninnapse in which so it's like if this is one neuron and this is another one there's a gap where there is a chemical transmission so a chemical neurotransmitter has to be released from here to here to stimulate this and to think that millions of cells are getting simultaneously you know stimulated
(09:23) sometimes excited sometimes inhibited for the smallest thing to happen. Yeah, >> we just talking of the conscious mind, the the subconscious mind that's controlling everything. Even the world's biggest biggest biggest, you know, uh computer or the massive data center can't compete with what's actually happening in one human brain.
(09:47) >> Uh I would love to just know whatever's going on in your head, ma'am, >> right now. because I know I know you're seeing things from a very uh psychology perspective and I actually think that there's a very young Gen Z audience in this room as well. The three of them are like I think 20 21 22 years old.
(10:05) So uh that's the audience and I also think that unfortunately that audience is said to be aging faster and having more mental health trouble than we did >> and then I compare to you guys >> uh you know where I feel that I think this doctor said to me almost the same age but >> uh we had a slightly tougher time than you guys I think >> like I think there was a little more mental the genzies are having a lot of trouble.
(10:31) >> Yeah. So how are you viewing this whole conversation about the brain? And I would also like to ask you how you're viewing the brain objectively in your own life. Is it evolving? What's happening from a societal perspective? >> I feel uh what's happening right now like first just to take uh this part ahead you know there's something called neurosception.
(10:53) M >> it is so magical to me when I read it the first time I was like does this really happen where at a subcortical level at a subconscious level your brain already knows what it is going to do >> neurosception yes neurosception and it's it's amazing and it comes because you've had all of these experiences in your life now I'm the abstract part they are the slightly more concrete part of these things so for me I like to concretize certain things so that people understand it. Anyways, our brain understands what
(11:27) is concrete. Like if I try to describe a cup to you versus show you a cup, you will be able to understand the cup better than me actually describe it to you. >> One is that coming to like what's happening society, I think um a couple of things it's multi-layered. It's not one thing at all. I think just the way uh resilience is going for example like Dr.
(11:54) Sid and I were just talking that you know resilience was I mean our times I think we were way way way more resilient. >> Yeah >> and slowly somewhere along the way >> maybe it's a part and parcel of parenting like that's a very very big thing >> cuz even the parents have their own issues. Yeah, because parents have their own issues. Then you're coming down.
(12:15) You're passing on those things. You're passing on those patterns. If you have unresolved issues, you will unknowingly unknowingly pass it down. So, and you don't have control as to how you will perceive what I say. >> I got to pause you there just for a second. Could you define neurosception once again so that we can move forward with clarity? Is it like intuition? >> No.
(12:40) So, neuros neurosception and please correct me if I'm wrong. both of you all right um neurosception from what I understand I'll try and simplify it because I think audiences love the simplification uh it is the part of the neurosception like uh what Dr. Rahaluk just said that when something is going to get fired at some level, it already knows it's going to fire at a particular point.
(13:05) >> And this is again very very abstract. It's like how we say subconscious unconscious because we have references of patterns. >> It is already going to happen at some level >> like for example >> uh it would be hard to give an example. What would be a good example of that? >> I think um we can talk about Breitbart potentials here >> where u suppose if I decide that I want to pick up the glass >> right? >> Yeah.
(13:33) >> Now that's a good point. >> At some point I have made a conscious decision to pick up the glass. If I had EEG electrodes on my head around I think 350 milliseconds before I actually move. >> Yeah. You will see a spike in my brain which is subconscious which means that a part of my brain knew that I'm going to pick up the glass before I have consciously decided.
(13:58) >> Wow. So there is an entire theory around the preffrontal cortex which is the evolved brain. Its main job is to not to decide what to do but to justify the decision that the subconscious brain is taking. >> Okay. So the brain is the CEO of the body and would you say that this PFC is the CEO of the brain? >> Of the brain.
(14:22) >> It's doing all your conscious mind stuff. >> Yes. >> Okay. Now back to resilience. So why why did you bring up neurosception and then link it to resilience? >> For me what has happened I think because we are taught in a particular way and then it is transferred down and everybody's going to be a different parent and a parent could be even somebody who's not biologically related to you.
(14:49) It could just be a primary caregiver. Today parental figures are even teachers. So tomorrow what my teachers also have said or done will play a role in my in my cloth of consciousness and unconsciousness. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. >> I have a question ma'am. So with every generation if resilience is falling is it because the level of expectation is different in each generation uh where each new generation sort of is brought up with expecting less hardship.
(15:24) Is that a relative thing? Maybe because our parents or our grandparents grew up with this expectation that as in every set of parents are softer progressively. expectation of hardship is lesser. They think that they would have a better >> there is that segment of parents who want to make it better for the generation that is coming.
(15:46) So there are a lot of things that we learned on our own and nobody taught us right but we learned the hard way which is why maybe we are way more resilient than the generation that is to come >> because this happens in medical colleges all the time where every new generation of residents think this is I cannot take it and the senior sick we had it worse than you.
(16:09) >> Yeah. Yeah. like today is something very simple like people are typing their files out and I'm like we've written 100 pages >> and they're like no it's too hard. I'm like okay all right we had to submit like 10 15 cases and you know right now it's ending at three and four cases. I'm like by the third case you actually know how to talk to somebody like where where is this going? Because that's the crazy thing about resilience that we will suffer at whatever level we are put at.
(16:41) So I remember when I had gone to KM recently now KM medicine has close to 25 residents per year >> and same number of patients. So that means that many patients are getting divided between 25 residents. >> At our time we had 16 and we thought we were having a tough time. So why are these kids crying? They have almost doubled the number of but 5 years before me there were nine.
(17:07) >> Wow. >> And 5 years before that there were six. >> And every batch feels like I am getting the worst deal. And after this even if there are 50 I'm sure those restaurants will also complain. So is resilience just suffering at where you are based on your expectation? If you're enjoying this conversation and if the growth of the mind is a subject that appeals to you, definitely go check out Swaha.
(17:37) It's my meditation app which I've built out over the last 5 years with the intention of helping you improve the quality of your life through boosting the quality of your mind. Now, back to this group podcast. What I've seen and I'd love to know what you think, doctor. uh what I've seen with younger hires that we have in any of our organizations is that uh they're very good at jobs for a short time and then you need to keep them entertained and you need to keep like switching their roles which was very different than >> uh when we were 22 years old.
(18:10) >> We see the stark difference. >> I remember Nal Rabi Khan saying that one of the biggest demons of the modern time is over stimulation >> that there's just way too much going on in the world. I boil that down to AI usage and short content usage. >> I just wonder from a neuroscience perspective what is doing to like neural patterns in the head and if that is on any level linked to affecting psychology which is then linked to affecting resilience which is then linked to affecting work performance.
(18:37) >> Now what has happened is from a neurological evolution point of view see we've we've grown up you know from fishes reptiles mamalians to human beings. So our lower brain so we have three parts of our brain. There's a reptilian brain, okay, which is the brain stem which just deals with the immediate hunger, thirst, food, etc.
(18:57) Then there's the paleomalian brain which has, you know, has an emotional content to it. It's it's, you know, it deals with uh a lot of very powerful driving forces. And then there's the newer brain that we have now. What happened is when we evolved, the evolution between the lower and the higher brain was sudden.
(19:18) The human cortex has grown very rapidly. If you see evolution, >> no organ has ever grown so suddenly. Which is why the higher brain doesn't normally has no direct control over the lower brain. When a between the higher brain and the midbrain there is there is a problem because everything the higher brain says the lower brain may not listen.
(19:45) Like for example, >> for example, you may know that eating junk food is not good. Okay, but your midbrain would, you know, want to eat that or you know for anything. It's true for addictions. It's true for almost every you may know getting up in the morning and going for a walk is great for your health.
(20:00) But your lower brain, you know, midbrain will want to sleep. >> Is it is it more anim animalistic than the highest? >> Exactly. So it is purely animalistic. So if you remove a higher cortex, a lower brain is exactly like that of lower animals. Okay. So the brain stem is ex it's called the reptilian brain. There is no difference between that part of the brain between us between any reptile. Okay.
(20:21) And if you go a little higher that brain the paleomial brain is just like you know a goat a sheep or horse or lion or anything else. There is no difference absolutely no difference. But we have superimposed on top of this the higher brain. >> Uh I just got to kind of accumulate everything you said and then I'm going to pass the ball to ma'am. Mhm.
(20:41) >> Uh >> so we spoke about the higher brain and the lower brain. Lower brain is very animalistic. Please help me out, Dr. S. >> So far so good. You're on track. Very good. >> Uh responsible for all your involuntary actions. Uh often responsible for many of the negative uh emotions that you feel. >> I assume greed, lust, anger. Absolutely.
(21:04) The seven cardinal sins of all Christianity. It's all lower brain devilish >> all the things that the Bible, the Quran, the Gita, everybody tells you don't do that's all >> like while you know it's so cardinal in some senses I think also if you use it the right way >> right like it's so wrong when we say anger is wrong anger is not wrong it's where you use it >> like if you go your whole life suppressing anger you are bound to have some flare up in your body which is going to lead to some kind of stroke or some kind of
(21:45) inflammation or something right like we talk about the mind body connection so you know it's not about it being completely in the wrong it's what you do with it >> you know the irony is that um >> you might feel anger from a lyic system like your old brain >> and it's not that animals don't fight >> you know animals fight each other all the time where there are tribes of monkeys fighting other tribes of monkeys.
(22:11) >> What is interesting though is that the ability to create stories >> is such a prefrontal cortex >> ability. >> And so if your lyic system say gets angry at someone, >> the preffrontal cortex can create a story >> that it's not just this person, >> it's actually their entire religion. >> Yeah, absolutely.
(22:36) That is a uniquely human capacity >> to take an individual anger >> and convert it into >> using your prefrontal cortex. >> I also feel it's part of the collective right like when you hear people enough saying oh it's this particular community or it's this particular tribe when you hear that enough also the software registers you know the story.
(22:58) >> Yeah. >> Right. And then it's very easy to make that association >> with the firing of everything that exists. >> Yes. Okay, >> I'll go back to that accumulation of thought. >> Uh, low brain is about uh >> the the animalistic tendencies. >> High brain >> can be assumed to be the PFC. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay.
(23:20) Uh that is responsible for all your human tendencies. All these neuroscience buzzwords we hear like neuroplasticity, the growth of the brain, uh the central aspect of self-improvement, >> I would even argue positive emotions like love, uh compassion, perhaps all that comes out of the higher brain. >> Yes. >> Well, that's that's being >> it's a bit of a blend.
(23:40) >> Wow. Cuz animals can be nice as well. >> Yeah. >> Because um yeah, >> let's put it this way. um when when your lower brain doesn't act, >> you won't feel love. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Right. Ultimately, if there will be no motivation. So if you look at it from a neurochemical perspective, uh what we identify as love uh is essentially dopamine and oxytocin which is very much a lower brain function and the higher brain will put a story on top of it.
(24:18) >> Gotcha. >> So the predominant function of the higher brain is to take an emotion and kind of fit it >> into your world view. >> But that emotion will exist in the lower brain. I almost feel like your whole job is around the higher brain. >> I was just thinking that that I was going to be like you know what can also go terribly terribly wrong is that when we sort of at again at an emotional abstract level.
(24:47) We have been taught to romanticize a lot of positive things at some level >> and that gives you a great hit of dopamine and then you just go at it to a point where it becomes toxic. So whether we talk about hope in a relationship, any sort of relationship, we talk about love, right? Love gets people into so much trouble all the time, right? But you're still like going at it because you're a romantic or and you know, love looks like this and love looks like fighting and Yeah.
(25:22) So you know, just sit down, take a moment, take a deep breath, you will see what's wrong out here. No is >> do you guys think it's useful for every young person to take a step back understand the structure working of their brain and their mind >> and then gave their absolutely absolutely I think it's a big disservice that we don't teach neuroscience in school everyone should learn >> absolutely uh okay >> like think of this right like at 18 uh we get a driver's license okay imagine a kid learning to drive without ever being
(25:58) taught acceler but we are somehow expected to navigate life without understanding that okay the amygdala will threaten you uh will get activated when you're threatened the prefrontal cortex is supposed to gain control over your lyic system in order to control your emotions these are things which are affecting us why are we not taught this >> in fact I think it's absolutely like I don't know what the nice word for it is, but to get someone to choose math, science, commerce at the age of 16. Yes.
(26:34) >> Oh god, >> what a scam. >> What a disaster that is. >> It's too early. >> It's too early. >> Yeah, >> you're so busy making mistakes. Actually, you know, you should have a window for making some mistakes. >> What made you choose engineering? >> Uh my mom, >> the true Indian answer. >> I I I would argue something similar for the three of you, sir.
(26:57) Uh but um um >> and a second question why didn't you take medicine when both your doctor parents were doctors answer both together. >> Yeah. Just a rebellious uh bone you know just just because >> your lower brain your animal brain said no medicine. >> Yeah. Yeah. Even today like all my loved ones know that they shouldn't tell me what they want me to do >> because then I don't do it.
(27:15) I want to do the opposite. >> It's too much of that animal brain at play. >> Why engineering? Uh no no no uh selfwilled uh decision. >> Okay. >> It was just it was just parents of me do it. And I'm glad I did it. Honestly, when I look back, uh it it exercised my brain in a way that I'm using even today. And >> did you do it for your parents or you did because you wanted to do it? >> Uh for my parents.
(27:37) >> If you had to go back and die hypothetically, would you still choose engineering? >> Yeah. You >> if I knew what it gave me um at what I've become at age 32 thanks to the engineering then yes. But at 22 I would have definitely said no. I would have said no till about 28 29. >> And it's kind of linked to this uh angle of curiosity.
(27:59) I think engineering really sparks your curiosity in a weird way because it teaches you how to think in free space. >> So you apply that free space thinking to a lot of different to almost every aspect of life. >> So what would you tell a 18-year-old listening to the podcast who wants to do something and their parents want them to do something else? I've not met this 18 year old actually because right now everyone's doing whatever they want to do and which is no and a curse. Yeah.
(28:24) See >> we have people in small town. So we are talking about the larger cities you know but there are a lot of people coming from smaller towns you know who who actually face this because you know this this question and what would you tell them? Uh I have a very hardcore way of looking at life which is that like I believe in going to the gym and building your muscles and training and making your body more flexible >> and therefore I'd say that choose a tough degree between the age of 18 and 2122 something that'll challenge you
(28:51) because >> if you begin with a really really tough like situation I think the rest of life becomes easier >> that's based on what how I have seen life >> like I feel it was important to take up something really difficult at between 18 to 25. >> Uh, it made the rest of my life very very easy in comparison. >> Okay, that makes sense.
(29:11) >> I I'd love to know what man thinks. >> I would actually send everybody for a psychometric assessment. >> Ooh. >> And because that really helped me while I knew I was made for the humanities, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to do media because, you know, when my psychometric assessment came, it said you would do very well in mass media.
(29:32) I've landed up here somewhere. >> Uh, then it said social sciences. It said interior designing, it said a bunch of things for me and I think that really helped me. So instead of going helter skelter and figuring out what is it it's I think it really helps to have someone just you know sort of take you just go to a accreditated institution do a credible sort of psychometric battery of test which will give you your aptitude your IQ uh you know your personality and above all I think this is something people don't look at interest
(30:06) >> you are here today because of interest it has got nothing to do with anything any robot can eventually replace you and do your job depending on what it is right but it is your interest today that he has the seniority he has the seniority I have mine you have yours right that's what has kept us going and people >> even people come to me also but madam engineer bane dra I'm like bane but he will not be happy like look at our country people are still like >> committing right trigger warning to everybody. So interest plays a very very
(30:43) key role. Also personality. I have some very meek people coming to me and saying I want to be a forensic criminal >> psychologist. I'm like do you know yourself first >> because when you sit on this side and it's not Netflix >> and you have to hear a bunch of things do you have the skin for it? M >> you just mentioned suicides and this is something which has intrigued me you know since I was >> what is it what's happening in the mind of a person who decides he wants to take his own life because survival is a very
(31:19) fundamental basic instinct in all animals >> yes >> where what is happening in their mind that somebody says I don't want this question >> I think the one of the main things that I've observed and seen is that they genuinely feel that they are alone. >> Alone. >> Loneliness is an epidemic. Even today, even with AI, even when we have people around, if you have decided >> that you are going to do everything on your own today for example, in fact, I lost somebody last month to it >> and that person I realized like I
(31:59) couldn't see it. I had such close proximity. one of your patients? >> No. Uh, she was actually somebody who was like my spine. She ran my home. Like I could go to work because she was there. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, she wouldn't complain. She would be a beast. >> And that's the thing you see from the outside, right? Like people are tough and they're doing it and they're at it and you're, you know, we're sitting and glorifying it.
(32:25) We're like, "Oh, you know, amazing. Damn good. You're strong. You're strong." You're not realizing how alone people are today. Yeah, >> like even uh it was the blue whale challenge right during the pandemic where you know the last of it is where you actually >> unfortunately like cut yourself in a particular manner >> the target was malleable teens. Mhm.
(32:48) >> Yeah. >> That's when your brain is like most susceptible. You feel alone. You are hormonal. You feel like nobody wants to like pay attention to you or understands you. >> And they were the best targets. They were the ones that you know unfortunate the success of it. Those were the targets >> and they were not able to come out of it.
(33:11) >> I have like two really like burning questions. Go. Uh the first question is that is loneliness the nucleus of all suicides? >> See I feel it's a one of them is lonely the other is like your patterns patterns play out everywhere. If I have been programmed in a manner to not speak, okay, and to not confide or to not have friends, right, then I will walk that path because I know no other path till I go and get help.
(33:44) That's why people say you should go get help, talk to people, right? What you're looking for is you're looking for a different perspective. You're looking for a different belief system. You're looking for a different story that your brain has not learned as you were growing up. like you know how we've seen hardship hardship over hardship like that so it's very important to go and get the help because of this so that somebody gives you a different perspective >> what's happening in the mind you know I I'm particularly sensitive to these
(34:12) students you know the need exam and you know >> it pains me when I read this what's happening in the mind of that student >> who's got his whole life ahead who's got supportive parents they are not alone now okay >> and just because they haven't made it through an exam or something has gone wrong They think what's happening >> it's they have taken it upon themselves to not uh disappoint anybody.
(34:37) >> Oh okay. >> And when you carry that burden >> right which is something that unfortunately our culture again glorifies you are carrying this burden right nobody should rest nobody should sleep. You can see how much of a chaos that is with respect to both your fields. Like people are not sleeping and people >> genuinely in the new generation people are glorifying lack of sleep.
(35:05) They're like oh you didn't sleep bro amazing. >> What come you will burn out by the time you are 25. >> That's very interesting. Yeah that's very interesting. >> There is a there is an unfortunate different angle to this as well. Uh they did this study where they took a bunch of people who were almost about to um commit suic >> and they did their spinal tap.
(35:30) So they put a needle in their spinal cord. They took out the CSF >> and they saw that in all of them the serotonin levels were very low. M >> and what they concluded was that serotonin is sort of the chemical of hope. >> Yeah. >> If hormone >> serotonin gives you the ability to value what you have. >> So even when when we talk of loneliness, >> we might be surrounded by friends.
(36:00) >> Yes. >> But if our brain is incapable of valuing those connections, we think that are they are there but are they really there? What is the point? What is the point of me living another? So if serotonin levels are that low, your brain's innate ability to look into the future and see hope >> goes away. >> Yep.
(36:21) >> So of course such an act for such an act to happen that balance has to be thoroughly you know misplaced. >> And that is the problem that it's a matter of hope. So if we had to give advice to parents whose kids are between 18 and 25, >> what advice would we give them? All all of us? >> Make them fail. >> Make them fail.
(36:43) >> Fail. Okay. >> So I really believe that if you >> Oh, so that's very interesting >> because um so okay the good analogy is the gym. Okay. So suppose if you have done a very high intensity workout >> and you are completely out, right? like you're tired >> but you recover in half an hour you feel better and one week later when you do it again you are better in 15 minutes and then in 5 minutes >> your body needs to build that memory that you might feel like there is no hope >> when your trainer makes you do that 50th
(37:17) squat for example you might feel like you're about to die >> but you know you're not going to even if your muscles are screaming with pain >> but that is a memory that your brain needs to build that you might be in pain but this is temporary. Pain is not going to remain. >> A child who's grown up in comfort.
(37:38) >> Probably that neat failure >> is the first time that they have experienced distress to that level. >> Yes. >> They've never experienced it before. >> That's true. That's very very true. >> How else will they know how to cope with it? >> They better fail. So in fact now I've kind of flipped it around like if if your kid has been succeeding all throughout school parents would be very happy but that's not a really safe thing.
(38:03) >> Okay. >> It's not >> they should be failing in some way. Maybe maybe in sports maybe in martial class somewhere. >> Yeah. I see a lot of quarter life crisises around me and it's often the kids who are the top of the class. >> Okay. >> Uh lots of that around me. >> Oh yeah. I've I've had gold medalists come to me and say I don't want to do this anymore.
(38:23) And I'm like I don't blame you. Tell tell us more on that. >> Is there is there something about uh the age of like 30 31 like between 30 and 35? Does something happen? Because I'm seeing a lot of volcanoes erupt around me. >> I think you're just done pleasing other people and you realize this is not what you want to do and then you know the authentic part of you takes a stand and says this is not me and me is something different and then you go and embark on that particular path.
(38:48) I have a few questions that are still burning in my head from your last bit and I'm also going to accumulate everything you guys have said. >> One of the accumulated points is that game/sport slocial physical activities are important. >> Very important. >> That's the and and I'm I'm 100% sure effects of serotonin.
(39:07) >> Absolutely. >> And lots of other Yeah. >> Yeah. And just the abstract qualities like failing, failing, resilience and thinking and creativity, problem solving, everything, everything that we do on a phone, we used to do in person at one point in time. >> I I'd probably think that it's also important for adults like as in after >> 25 30 you still need to keep up some kind of group activity.
(39:29) >> I mean, play therapy is a real it's a real thing. It's a real field. Um the burning question I still have in my head to you from about 15 20 minutes ago is that do you visualize mental health like a spectrum like especially when you're dealing with clients who have varying degrees of mental health? >> Okay.
(39:50) >> Do you see it as like one bar and then you try to like make it easier and take it from red to green? >> Uh we're talking about like somebody's journey. Are we talking like that or are we talking about >> if the three of us come to you as clients? Sure. >> And we all have different degrees of mental health.
(40:07) >> Sure. >> In your head, how do you visualize mental health? >> Do you physically view it? >> No. So I I like my my personal way of doing things is to understand somebody's blueprint and you know we are taught in this manner especially at a clinical level to see what is not there. When someone comes to me, the first thing I actually try to see is what do they have that I can use? >> What do they have that you can use? >> Yeah. Mean.
(40:35) >> So what what is already existing in you >> that I can build on? And this is a take of positive psychology which is a very neon psychology >> and strength building is a very very real thing. >> Like for example what like >> so for example let's say an artist comes to me. >> Okay. >> Okay. And let's say he's a painter.
(41:00) All right. His world view is very skewed, doesn't love the world, etc., etc., whatever. Is facing some sort of trauma in life or coming out of a trauma, whatever it is. >> Uh, I would never tell that person to stop painting. In fact, I would be like, paint, paint as much as you can. M >> in fact I would use his paintings to in our sessions to help me crack what is going on in his world because >> wow >> yeah that for me is like very important so I don't really see it like a physical scale per se I will look at your
(41:35) blueprint I will look at like what's happening really in your system it's a very like unconscious way of like assessing somebody where I'm you know I guess with time with the wisdom of a therapist you're able to be like acha maybe we can work with this. Maybe we can work with this. Maybe we can work with this.
(41:53) We don't always have to fill some void. >> Okay. >> That is >> I'm almost sorry that I'm asking you this question. Okay. But because I'm an engineer, I try visualizing things. >> Sure. >> Uh like machines. >> Sure. >> How do you visualize people's minds? >> Oh, no. I don't visualize. For me, it's a lot of abstract gut feeling. Okay. uh it's obviously part of my training also where I'm not going to go a miss if someone is giving me symptoms I'm going to take that into consideration as well >> you know but the other qualities that people try to teach you which is really
(42:30) weird to me maybe I'm a fortunate person but like when someone tries to teach you in college kindness and empathy like it's weird to me because those are traits that I have and I had the luxury of growing up in a in a safe home M >> where I could exercise all of these things. >> Uh the root of my preceding question is that I want to equip listeners >> with tools.
(42:56) >> They obviously can't self therapize but whatever the closest thing is to that. I want to give practical takeaways like how we got one takeaway in terms of hey it's great to >> do a physical activity. >> Yeah. >> Just it safeguards your brain. Uh what else? >> I would ask people to focus on hygiene. When I say hygiene, I don't mean just physical hygiene which is like very important to like all of us when somebody steps into our office.
(43:24) That's one of the first things we see. I would say mental hygiene. Get off your phones. Okay. Maybe you want to have some part of your day that is dedicated to phone time. Maybe that's 20 minutes. Don't touch your phone. Otherwise, otherwise we're living with our phones. like >> it's like right here or right here which is so bad.
(43:44) >> Uh hygiene and another aspect spiritual hygiene. >> Uh fiscal hygiene. >> What what is spiritual hygiene? >> Think about something that maybe like has you at a spiritual level whatever that is. For some people they'll be like oh but I'm agnostic and you know I don't believe in anything. Okay maybe sometimes you just want to go sit somewhere and do nothing.
(44:08) Maybe that's your version of spirituality. Okay, fine. Okay, take some time out. Like everyone's so plugged in right now. You have to plug out because our brains are not meant for so much plug in time. Modernization has really really messed up our nervous systems. >> Okay. Like uh it I mean you have children, toddlers, right, with like screens right here while they're eating.
(44:35) >> Yeah. M >> and that's not okay at any level. >> Yeah. And modernization seems to be messing it up further. >> Absolutely. Like then I think like financial hygiene and then just intellectual hygiene like all of these things need to have some space so that you are able to align your nervous system as well.
(44:58) Right? This is what you are doing like you are ingesting this just the way you focus on food and eating properly and eating right. M >> you have to be very mindful of the you know they say the people you meet the books you read the movies you see that's all very very real because at some level it will translate out into your life.
(45:16) >> Yeah. Intellectual hygiene would be all these choices. >> Yeah. All these choices like what are you reading right now or what are you doing right now which maybe you are upscaling upskilling etc. Like what are you doing for yourself? M >> it's important like especially you know especially when clients come with let's say early onset of dementia Alzheimer's etc.
(45:37) We tell them we tell them please do new number work we tell them go ahead learn a new language keep those parts of you alive >> it's very very important. So you start now and whatever you do now at like let's say 30 40 is going to decide what it's going to look like at 60 70 80 you know and even if you are affected genetics if you get affected anyways after doing all the hard work maybe it won't be as bad >> as it would or could have been >> right like please correct me if I'm wrong >> no you're completely right and as an an extension of this there is something
(46:14) else that's happening that the world is sort of not aware of the increasing incidence of ADHD and autism. >> You know, when we were smaller, ADHD almost did not exist. And now almost every alternate person has ADHD. I mean, everybody's got some degree, >> including us, maybe. But autism in 1995, one out of a thousand kids had autism.
(46:37) >> One out of thousand. >> Today, it is one out of 31. >> Where is one out of thousand and one out of 31? And the year before this it was 1 out of 36. The year before this was 1 out of 44. One out of 50. So if you look at every year 50 40 36 31 just imagine what the next is. >> Is this the evolution of the human species? >> Exactly.
(47:00) In some ways it is but it is also you know it's something which is not understood because what is happening is a very interesting question you asked and we've studied this through neuroscience because we do the brain scans of kids with autism. We've done almost I've treated almost 8,000 children and when 8,000 children when you do their PET CT scans these are functional scans.
(47:21) Uh we see parts of the brain that are not working but we see parts of the brain that are working more. So whereas we've noticed and this might interest you their cerebellum in all in every 8,000 children that we've done their cerebellum is completely hypometabolic >> and the liyic system the medial temporal lobe >> including that's why they can't speak they have no attention no concentration they can't go to normal schools uh but we find that the visual area the oxipital area and sometime part of their prefrontal cortex is hyper metabolic
(47:53) >> that's what creates an Elon Musk that's What creates a Bill Gates in fact Bill Gates in a TV interview 6 months ago he wrote he's written a book called source code actually said in the interview as a child he had all the symptoms of autism he described the symptoms and if you you know if you if you see Bill Gates and Elon Musk you'll see a lot of similarities you know >> Leon Messi >> yeah Messi of course and then you can go back to Albert Einstein yeah >> kind of seems no and nobody like that has a hyperactive cerebellum that man
(48:21) has insane balance >> that has anyway so what's happening is that what what she said is now extending to society as as a whole where we have a large number of people with ADHD. Now what happens with ADHD is people like this can't go through the normal education system which is about wrote memory.
(48:42) It is about sitting with a book memorizing and going and you know so the no education system now was structured at a time when there were no calculators when there were no computers when information wasn't easily available. >> Uh we had to memorize the battle of Panipat. Now what is the relevance of knowing who won or who lost in the battle of Panipat today? Okay.
(49:03) And if you want to it's available in your hand. So I believe it's important that we restructured our education system to now cater to the next level of humans. As you said that autism is the next level of human evolutions because these kids can do stuff we can't do. They are masters at nonverbal communications. They can literally read your mind.
(49:23) They know what you're perceiving. They their understanding is so amazing. Uh and and our PET scans are showing that they have visual memory because their visual c their entire oxipital cortex completely hyper metabolic. That's why Einstein, you know, he saw somebody traveling at the speed of light.
(49:38) Nobody could do that. It requires a bra a brain like that to be able to see beyond. It requires Elon Musk had asperers as as he openly talks about his autism. He he he did something nobody's done. You know, when I when I learned my driving in the 1980s, I never thought one day cars would go without petrol. One man changed everything.
(49:59) He's talking of setting up colonies on Mars. He got neurolink. He's talking, you know, stimulating the brain. there's no field that he has not not touched. >> So this is the next level of human evolution. However, there is a increasing number of children who >> cannot speak because now the autism earlier that they had was a different type. It was called the spectrum.
(50:20) Today we are having kids who cannot talk. They're totally non-verbal. They are extremely hyperactive. They are aggressive. They can't go to normal schools. And so these children need a a different kind of help and support. And um >> you're saying it's a high degree of autism. >> We are seeing a severe it's called there's a word for it profound autism.
(50:37) Profound is a more severe in the sense see Bill Gates and Elon Musk could talk. They had speech. Okay. >> They were somewhere on the spectrum. >> They were somewhere they but but now we having about 20% of our children with this profound autism where you know all the because there's no medicine for this except for you can use some drugs to calm their hyperactivity.
(50:58) uh there are some medications but there's nothing there's no surgery you could do of course we have been treating them with our cellular therapy and we've been able to reverse we've got a 90% success rate and uh but we are now focused and there again you spoke of neurotransmitters uh we found something very fascinating we've been studying their neurotransmitters and for example we found that their dopamine you know is less the gaba is less >> and we have found that serotonin is elevated you know and the epinephrine is elevated Now uh we did something very
(51:29) fascinating. We're not only seeing the blood neurotransmitters in the blood we actually because during a procedure when we do cellular therapy we take out uh bone marrow separate monuclear cells and injected into the CSF. So we actually get CSF fluid. Now we were among the first to actually in the CSF identify what is going wrong.
(51:48) You know which neurotransmitters are less which are more. So not only we documented that for the first time uh and it's it's sent for a publication uh it's in preprint. I'll share the paper with you. Uh we actually showed the connection between neurotransmitters in the cerebrospinal fluid in the blood. We also checked in the urine and the stools.
(52:08) Now this data was overwhelming and that's where AI came to a help. We asked AI to sort of put it all together and for the first time ever in the world and it's a matter of great pride that we actually started connecting the dots what's going on in the brains. Okay. And the most fascinating part was we did it before and then we did it after our cellular therapy procedure and we found the balance was corrected.
(52:29) >> The the things which were higher before had become uh you know come down the ones which were lower had come up. So neuroscience is kind of now helping us and just may be in the future because what you said was very fascinating that uh you know children committing uh or met people committing suicide at uh the levels were abnormal.
(52:51) >> Yeah. >> Uh I don't know where but you know maybe you know we'll have to start looking at our people and start intervening earlier. >> We have to put neuroscience to good use. So could you could you jenzify all the biology >> right now like the cerebellum stuff uh the inference from the studies just like so essentially um autism is a state where kids are perceiving information from the outside world >> differently yeah >> from what we used to consider as normal.
(53:29) M >> so earlier there was a clear definition of okay this is normal and so anything outside of this normal is abnormal >> gradually we realized that not every kid perceives the world in the same way at the same age and because kids brains are constantly evolving how they perceive the world at five may not be how they perceive the world at 15.
(53:49) So a lot of kids may grow into being closer to the mean. They may start off as outside the mean and kind of grow into the mean. So different kids will perceive different senses differently. Like some kids might be like more prone to audio stimulus. Some kids might be more prone to visual stimulus.
(54:10) That depends on the way that their brain areas are firing. So if your occipital lobe, which is for vision, is more active, then you'll be more prone to visual stimuli. And if your temporal loes, which are for hearing, if that they're underactive, you might not listen to things much. It could be sometimes the other way around. Also, some kids might really be into music.
(54:29) They might be able to see patterns on a piano keyboard and hear notes that other adults can't. So, that is why autism is now considered as a spectrum >> because it's neurodeivergent. So, it's just are you diverging away from what is considered as normal. There is now more and more sort of um pediatricians who consider that we should probably stop looking at autism as a disease >> and just think that okay all kids are born different >> and can we just make them functional are they functional in their way >> maybe it's our expectation that we will
(55:08) teach in this one way and fit they are diseased that sounds unfair >> just like how everybody has a different height and so we don't expect everyone to wear the same shirt. >> Can we have a broader way of dealing with kids and then they will be normal in that way. >> X-Men >> X-Men is a great example. >> I would give example of Sachin Tunar.
(55:31) See his father Sachinar you know went to school I don't think he went to college but his father figure out when he was small that this guy's great with the bat >> and instead of putting him into coaching classes you know he he got him a cricket coach and see what he became. Now imagine if his father had forced him to do medicine or engineering that would have been a disaster you know and we would have lost you.
(55:52) So Sachin Telur is a great example of how parents exactly like what Sid said understand what their kids are naturally good at even if it is unconventional >> even if it is different. >> Okay. So loosely I think there's two topics going on simultaneously here and I'd love to know if they're linked. >> There's autism which is increasing in uh numbers.
(56:14) >> Absolutely. U it seems like the next stage of evolution for the human species is uh this stage that we're talking about. >> Uh so probably 100 years from now more and more children might be born autistic. >> Is that too farfetched a statement? >> Based on the current statistics and these are statistics from the US CDC center for disease control.
(56:34) You have to see that graphic on the website. Every year there's an increase in about 10. Like if it was like I said it's one in 31 now it was 1 in 36 1 in 40 1 in 50 1 in 60. So if you just see that graph for the last 15 years and there's no reason that anything has changed that that will not based on data >> there will be a much higher incidence and you'll say but why aren't we seeing it because the the people affected now are still children right these people are going to become adults in the last 10 years that's when it will hit society
(57:08) >> okay >> um probably in a good way >> possibly because there's something very unique about kids autism you know in fact I've written in a book I've written my preface it says these kids they don't know how to cheat they don't know how to lie they never backstab you they have a beautiful you know you know everything we think good in human beings everything we think God should be you know these kids have it they have a purity of thought and purpose in my book I say I wish the rest of the world had these qualities
(57:37) >> is it just America or we seeing this all over the world >> all over the world in India as well massive increase in India massive >> okay >> but we also have to um factor in that our ability to sort of identify >> these kids has also kind of gone up. We are thinking about it >> more.
(57:57) Parents are more concerned >> that they will notice that something is so earlier say if you have 10 kids right and couple of them are a little different along with the rest of the crowd >> but now parents have like one kid two kids and they are more observant they feel like oh my kid doesn't do this exactly like every other kid let me take them to a pediatrician so our barrier for seeing a doctor has also come down significantly.
(58:27) So one of the reasons why the diagnosis rate might have gone up >> is also because people are more aware, people are more concerned which is a good thing, >> right? We need them to be um identified so that >> parents can also be trained on how to deal with these kids. >> Okay. The other topic that's parallelly going on here is adult ADHD >> which is very hot with >> everyone my age and younger at least I see this a lot of self diagnosis.
(58:54) Uh, and we'll get to that. I have to cap out one talking about it. >> We have things to say. >> We have things to say. >> Uh, yeah. And it's almost become a status symbol >> to say that when when people walk into my clinic and I say, "You don't have and everything's fine with you." They're like, "Really?" >> Yeah. I want my money back.
(59:16) >> Like, I don't have a diagnosis. Why don't I have a diagnosis? And I'm like uh >> shouldn't you be happy that sub now we have another like trajectory that we can work on and walk towards >> right but no everyone I guess again you know the whole social media and the buzzwords and all those things like >> and I was telling them and them as well uh use psychometrics don't just go around saying self diagnosis I have ADHD Mhm.
(59:49) >> Uh >> how do you know? >> Okay. >> U we'll just park this ADHD thing here >> for some time and then come back to it. >> Uh there is a question from the previous chapter that I need to run through all three of y'all. >> It's almost like a game we'll play. >> We spoke about how the education system is not equipped to handle the modern brain or to equip the modern brain for modern adult life. Okay.
(1:00:13) So as brain experts, as people who counel, guide, uh help so many people, you guys have a different insight on the workings of different kinds of brains. >> Yeah. >> So we'll go one person at a time. Each of you give one sentence which is basically like one input for the right way to educate a modern day child or teenager.
(1:00:40) you know, what is one thing you'd focus on um in terms of school? Ideally, just give one sentence and we'll we'll we'll keep passing the passel. >> Sure. Um so, one of my biggest learnings about how the brain learns is movement and learning are intricately linked. So, throughout evolution, if you think about it, every animal will learn something on how to move.
(1:01:07) like you're either hunting a prey or running from a predator or picking up a fruit or whatever it is. All learning is movement. We are the first species to segregate movement alag and learning alag. So we have a separate PT class >> and we have eight hours where kids are supposed to sit in one place and only learn. It is unnatural. So from all the neuroscience evidence, if there's one change that needs to happen is incorporate more movement into learning and most of the kids who the teacher says are they don't sit in one place. They're not meant to sit in one
(1:01:44) place. They're kids. >> The reason that this whole system happened was because in the industrial revolution, parents didn't know what to do with kids and they just had to be in one place. >> So incorporating movement into learning will probably make for better students. Assuming that we can't redo the education system, do you have at least start with this? >> Yeah, the only thing I have to say is find the like a very practical solution is because uh I guess that's what parents would want and also kids would want is that choose the right education
(1:02:15) institution. Today you have your IB school, you have your SSC school, you have your Waldorf, you know, education system. Choose the right system. If you know your kid has high functioning, for example, please don't torture that child and put that kid into an SSE school because you will be called. I know instances of parents and caregivers who are called because the child has given a definition or written extra in an exam >> and the teacher is offended.
(1:02:50) >> Wow. How did that become our you know normal real and as a teacher you should have that power right like because we've taught right have that power and wisdom to say this kid is not meant for this class please take this kid out of here and put the child into a place where he will be you know he will grow >> but how does a parent know about the options available >> like and what are the options available >> I mean honestly like if you just go on the internet right You have all parents decide honestly it starts from
(1:03:24) conceiving. I've seen my friends do it the moment they get pregnant they are deciding what school to put their kids in. I would say take buckets out. God forbid your child has special needs. Suppose your kid is high functioning. That child is not going to be able to sit in an SSE class. >> Okay, that kid is going to be meant for a very different system because of how his nervous system is.
(1:03:49) You can't expect that kid to sit around. Pick an institution where and you know Bombay has really progressed. I can speak about Bombay and a little bit about India as well. They have now made spaces for quite the spectrum. So today if you don't want to specialize in one thing and you want to specialize in two things, right? I have the choice.
(1:04:11) I can do a dance minor economics major. >> Wow. >> Great. So find find your fit and that's where like getting assessed is like really important. If if the parents feel that something is happening, my kid is not playing the way the other kids are playing, look at it. >> How does one get assessed? >> Uh find the the panel is here.
(1:04:34) >> Okay. You go to a neurologist, psychologist. >> Yes. Go to go to somebody who is able to look at people in a holistic manner. Number one is what I would say. >> Okay. If you're going to be pure science also or pure abstract therapy also, it's not going to work. At least I can say that for >> the the Indian culture system. Yeah.
(1:04:56) >> Okay. Because we are very diverse within ourselves. >> We're not just thinking like an individualistic culture. We are a collective. Sometimes there's way more heart than thinking. >> Okay. So it's important to go and find the person who's able to assess you. Mo mostly it'll be like a psychologist. Okay.
(1:05:19) Go to any education institution which actually has you know a ton of psychometrics that they do. There are some colleges that do this. >> Maybe if you're not very affording you can find an intern and be like do you want to use me as a guic? But you give me the right assessment. >> Right? So there are ways to figure it out. Like >> genuinely if people ask me I message people and I tell them where to go and what to do because there are far out and few psychometricians that I trust and I believe also like that is very very important. How you read a report is what
(1:05:51) like decides where you are going to go as well. I think that happens for you all as well at a physiological level. >> Yeah. >> So I think that is very very important. The earlier you assess the better the development of the individual will be and you yourselves as caregivers as parents you all will have lesser stress then somebody else who's equipped and trained to handle what your needs are are attending to you.
(1:06:20) >> You know while this question is for children I think it also applies to adults. >> Yes it does. >> And there's there's some anecdotes that adults can take away from all these >> for sure. For sure. I'm a big believer of like finding your space and finding your village and finding what really interests you and sticking by it.
(1:06:38) >> That's very very important. >> The only thing that I would add to this is there is a risk in psychometric assessment of a premature definition of oneself. So we all if suppose if a kid gets assessed and they read that okay this is who I am >> right >> uh so important to add that clause that that doesn't mean this is all you can be >> yes >> so that part has to be added because we don't know how that kid will grow >> and we might they might add other aspects to their identity later >> I actually say this to my adult clients
(1:07:16) >> that you are not your depression >> exactly >> you are not your depression You are not your anxiety. Anxiety is something that has happened to you. >> It's like someone having cancer or stroke. You are not stroke. >> You Yes, you have the disorder. >> So, it's difficult. But with time, I think people learn to realize.
(1:07:36) I'm like, if you're able to see it for what it is, >> you will be able to act >> and that is important. Awareness and action are important. If you have awareness and have no action, can't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> so here um now you rightly said it's difficult to change the education system.
(1:07:58) It won't happen overnight and it's difficult. But what can change is the way their parents approach their kids. I always say our children are born through us but don't belong to us. Okay. Very often we think our children belong to us and what we do is and this is a known fact that whatever a parent did not get in his in his or her childhood or whatever suffering he had he tries to overcompensate for that in the children right >> children can't be corrected they they don't know they're small they don't have control over their lives the education
(1:08:34) system can't be changed but the parents can so if you just do this look at the half full identify what they are naturally good at keeping your likes, dislikes, your past history, your whatever's happened to you, your traumas, putting that aside and say what is my child naturally good at? Because if that child then makes that into an education or a vocation, they are right on top of it. They excel.
(1:08:57) We only excel in what we are naturally good at, >> right? >> So identify the natural talent as well as go for >> parent skill coaching. >> Yeah, I think so. I think that's very important. >> Yeah. Maybe the best thing that a parent can do for their child is to go to therapy. >> Oh, I was just telling one of the team members and I and I genuinely like I give so much credit to Jenzie for this.
(1:09:20) Jenz is bringing their parents to therapy. >> Interesting. And I absolutely love that they don't come for many sessions but they show up the people who are hardwired to like go through you know the daily struggle and low and all of those things >> much against their beliefs they show up because the kid is like you have to come if I have to go you have to go I think it's only fair and somehow they bring the client >> right >> and I think that's amazing and it's true if I have had a bad experience with failure. I'm going to make sure my child
(1:09:55) never fails. >> Absolutely. >> Exactly. >> So, deal with your monsters. >> Okay. Uh now we can open up this ADHD tangent again. >> And uh what I really want to address is >> new cases of adult ADHD. >> I think you'll have to help us out a bit here >> because uh what I have been told by some of the people I spoke to before this episode is that >> uh what is traditionally thought to be an ADHD diagnosis has changed a bit now because of short content usage.
(1:10:26) >> Like the definition of ADHD has changed a bit. The definition of how to diagnose it has changed. >> There's a very raw >> uh bunch of thoughts. So I would love for you to clarify that. >> Uh I personally believe after 11 years of creating content uh a content creator's job in essence is about predicting where society is at.
(1:10:48) >> It's very very difficult to make content nowadays. It's becoming more and more difficult. It's also becoming very difficult to make long form content like this. >> Uh I do think that this particular episode will find it st >> uh for the most part >> you have to keep your content really short. You have to keep it crisp.
(1:11:06) You have to edit heavily. >> Uh that's a reflection of where society is at. >> Sure. >> Uh couple of tangential questions. Firstly, the self diagnosed ADHD rubbish that's going on. >> Uh let's address that. And secondly, >> what is real ADHD that's actually happening around us and is it even >> is it even bad? >> Okay, I mean it depends on what you do with it, right? If you realize that you have ADHD and you know how to hone in on your skills, like one of the things, one of the traits of ADHD people is hyperfocus. If I like something, I'm
(1:11:42) going to kill it. Like I have friends who are pilots who have ADHD. >> So with the help of therapy and medication. Yes. And obviously he got assessed. Assessment is very important. And whoever is assessing you needs to look at you at an individual level as such. Uh you have to see that person's lifestyle.
(1:12:13) Am I doing any sort of like drugs? Where is my attention actually going? Because sometimes attention is not just a factor of like you know ADHD. It could be because you are doing drugs because there's lack of sleep because just your sickardian rhythm is totally totally off >> you know and obviously these two can vouch for that that you know a lot of things get fixed when you live better right? Do you live according to your rhythm? Like I'm not going to say wake up at 5:00 because I don't wake up at 5:00. Okay.
(1:12:47) Find your rhythm. >> Definitely find your rhythm. So like for example, the last time I was on your podcast and you know we did like a little fun activity of drawing, >> right? Uh I wouldn't assess that drawing just like that. I am going to ask you whether the person drawing was a professional person who was drawing the test.
(1:13:11) We did a very quick like DAP for funsies to be very honest and they were like oh ma'am you know interpreted. So you know did the little thing and one of the things to actually like understand is that does this person come from an artistic space? Does this person have a hand? because then my interpretation is going to you know obviously come off on it >> right like maybe then the test will look great >> all right but in fact that is just the person's artistic ability >> right >> so my diagnosis will be totally off then so >> is is scrolling increasing ADHD
(1:13:45) >> okay so before that pause I think before we call it ADHD >> we kind of need to look at Not every person who has trouble focusing >> has ADHD. >> Absolutely. I was just say that very because it's attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder. ADHD is a childhood disorder with a huge genetic component where there is attention deficit plus hyperactivity.
(1:14:16) They're jumping, they can't sit still, there is no ability to control their motor movements. >> Okay. This is a dopamine network dysregulation. >> Gotcha. >> Right. So there is a genetic component to it. Not everybody with the gene will get it. But if you have that gene and if there are certain environmental factors, you will get those symptoms.
(1:14:38) And most kids with ADHD, if you go back and ask their school teacher, they will say the adult ADHD that you're talking about. How many people who say they have adult ADHD also have that hyperactivity where they're jumping from place to place. They just have trouble focusing. And there are many reasons for having trouble focusing.
(1:15:05) So before you call somebody adult ADHD, have you ruled out like ma'am said, have you ruled out drugs? More commonly, have you ruled out anxiety? >> Yeah, anxiety is simply anxiety, depression really affect memory, they affect your attention. And these are things that people don't talk about. Like before the the podcast started, I was talking to him about how I met two physiootherapists who are focusing on fascial work >> and as a part of anxiety all your muscles, your spine, your frozen shoulder, these are byproducts.
(1:15:41) These are somatic issues that people with anxiety and like depression have restless leg syndrome so common in depression. Exactly. >> People don't talk about it. hypermobility so common. >> So like an example, if I give you a presentation to make and you are focusing on it and I light a fire in this room behind you and I tell you to focus, will you be able to focus? You will not.
(1:16:07) And I cannot diagnose you as ADHD because you're not able to focus. Even if that fire is imaginary, which is what anxiety disorder is, right? So if for an anxious person, there's always a fire burning somewhere. They're not able to pay attention. Just that isolation may if you take they may look like they have an attention deficit problem, but they actually have an anxiety problem.
(1:16:29) >> My intuition is that most adults >> who have an attention problem actually have an anxiety problem. >> Anxiety? Yeah. What%? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We wouldn't know. >> It's a hard >> Let's take an average between your answer and your answer. >> Oh man, I want to say eight. >> 8%. >> No, eight out of 10 people. >> Eight out of 10.
(1:16:49) Yeah, I would say that as well. >> Eight out of 10 people. >> Yeah. Any adult who had a relatively normal childhood and then they developed attention problems later. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Because like so much stress and burnout, >> it's going to >> Okay. Because the overarching topic here is this adult ADHD situation thanks to scrolling.
(1:17:07) >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> There's also ADD >> which is without the HD without the physical running around. >> Yeah. without the physical running around is just basically towards focus that you're not you just can't focus. >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm just thinking of the average one in two adults that we see around us who have just >> scroll too much.
(1:17:28) Doom scrolling >> has led to like some kind of changes and then it's definitely affecting their >> productivity. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Performance at the workplace. >> How can it not? >> Yes. How can it not? >> Uh it's like going to the gym and you know your brain is a muscle. So if you make it work a particular way, >> uh it's going to go into that direction.
(1:17:48) >> Yeah. You know, so uh there are some counternarratives to doom scrolling that if you basically curate your feed, it can be good for your mind. >> But I argue that >> scam. >> Yeah, that's what I think. >> Okay. >> I don't think there's anything dooming. >> So here's what happens. Uh when we talk of attention or focus, yes, it is essentially dopamine coming into your prefrontal cortex helping you find motivation to focus on one thing.
(1:18:20) Dopamine is a motivation chemical also. >> So when you show me something new, there is a dopamine spike. I'm thinking, "Ooh, what is this? Let me pay attention to it." Okay, so this is that initial spike of focus. What happens is that initial dopamine goes away. And if I'm able to still sustain, dopamine comes back >> because now you're discovering new things about that thing and I can sustain my attention for a while longer.
(1:18:48) But if I give up after that initial spike and I want another thing and another thing, I am training my brain that attention. That is what scrolling is training all of us, right? So our attention like ma'am said is like a a muscle like anything else. And when we scroll, every time we switch on a new reel, there's a dopamine spike.
(1:19:15) After 30 seconds, we're bored. So we scroll again. Each scroll is you training your brain that this much dopamine spike is all you are capable of. And so you never experience that sustained dopamine that comes from long-term attention. And everyone from the age of 5 to 85 is going through the same. >> Correct.
(1:19:33) And the younger you start training, the more deeper that learning goes. So I feel like all of us are still saved somehow because in our formative years we did not have the concept of scrolling. >> True. >> That's true. >> We will not know until another 20 years what has been the effect. >> So do you know that >> this effect in 20 years? Yeah.
(1:19:53) >> Right. Like so today when we look at stories of how um kids used to smoke in the 50s >> and cigarettes were allowed in operation theaters. >> Now it sounds so ridiculous. >> That is what is going to happen in another 20 years when you realize that kids were allowed phones to scroll in. >> That is exactly it.
(1:20:16) Because neurochemically there's no difference between scrolling and playing at a casino. It's the same thing at a neurochemical level. It's the exact same thing as a slot machine. >> Would you allow a kid to play on a slot machine? >> Slot machine. Yeah. >> You know, the sad news is that this clip won't be pumped by algorithms.
(1:20:34) >> Hey, it might because the algorithm will want attention. >> It It probably will. This clip, if this clip goes viral, that'll be so ironic. >> Share this clip. Share this clip. You want to solve this global doom scrolling issue. Are there activities to undo this damage caused by the doom scrolling of the last four or five years? >> Put your phone away.
(1:20:55) >> Can I give you a more practical one? Watch longer videos. >> Yeah. So, >> I actually feel that's better. >> That's true. A friend of mine who has ADHD is like, you know, I'm stuck here. Like, I'm just stuck here. And I said, okay, I won't take your phone away because that also is very aggressive for somebody who's been glued to their phone.
(1:21:16) So I said you know let's decrease like Instagram actually has this time capsule 15 minutes half an hour. Nobody does it obviously but like yeah I mean guilty I also I'm like 15 minutes more 5 minutes more >> but decrease for decrease yeah skip for today bad day skip for today. >> So decrease the time and then eventually like I I uninstall Instagram.
(1:21:41) >> Yeah. like if it wasn't for my journey with you starting from you my Instagram would not be on my phone >> or move to YouTube. I genuinely feel >> long format is a >> go to long form and switch to things that have a sustained information curve >> wherein your brain is processing information and then learning information related to the first one.
(1:22:06) So you're still on that same topic. So look at videos that are 15 minutes, 20 minutes long and just think it training your brain. That's fine. See all of us drew grew up in uh the time of television where we are watching 30inut episodes. That was all right. Right? So entertainment is not a problem. Getting uh getting fun out of things is not a problem.
(1:22:31) But this 8second fun never existed before. This mechanics of 8-second fun that you explained is what's causing so-called adult >> AD ADHD. >> Yeah. It's it's the difference between like lifting a weight, holding it, and then putting it down versus the person who's doing this continuously in the gym, right? They're different. >> They function differently on muscles.
(1:22:51) >> If you keep doing this in the gym, eventually you damage your back. >> Yeah. So my question to you is this whole adult ADHD thing that's forming in people's heads, >> what kind of sadness will it cause in the long term >> or distress will it cause? >> I think ADHD does have a component of sadness and depression and anxiety that comes with it.
(1:23:12) So, if anything, I've seen a lot of people in a functional freeze state who actually think they're on their phone and doing something pathbreaking by just doom scrolling and saying, "I'm on my phone." But actually, they've checked out. They've checked out from their phone. They've checked out from their brain. >> They've said bye to everything.
(1:23:31) They're just on a couch and your one hour just goes. >> Nothing has happened. But see, this is clinical. what I'm saying is clinical in nature also people who are burnt out also do this this is a great way to check out and it just then keeps you know the loop is on >> the loop is on also the type of content you are ingesting >> like you know they say that your phones are picking up stuff so if I'm going through a breakup and then I get you know content on only like breakup breakup breakup you are just the neurochemicals that will get flushed
(1:24:07) into my system will be a >> full different level of you know demons unfortunately. >> So when you come to therapy I'm not just up against how you're thinking but I'm up against your nervous your physiological nervous system >> and to you know to move out of that space is hard. It's very very hard >> you know this is the way I look at it in life there is what I call signal and there is noise >> you know >> and you know people like Elon Musk and Steve Jobs they are like almost 100% signal signal is where you only give attention to something that's
(1:24:46) important something that's part of your plan you know what you want to do and noise is just all the rest of the clutter >> so it is important that If we introduce some of these things like the learning to you know introduce yoga for example you know which actually calms your mind because when you do yoga you go into a different um brain wave pattern you know so now when you're doom scrolling your brain wave pattern is a very different one and uh we have different brain wave patterns like we have when you're like
(1:25:18) we are right now talking so our brains are on beta we are all our brains are activated on a beta wave >> uh let's say before this you were preparing for something >> you know you were reading something or you're concentrating you are in a >> gamma phase >> let's we just now took a coffee break that time our brains went into alpha wave >> uh let's say just before sleeping you're tired in bed we are in a theta wave and when you go to sleep we in a delta wave right >> now when you're doom scrolling you're you're actually now uh
(1:25:50) when we are talking we are in beta okay but there you are in a gamma but a distorted sort of gamma because it's not There there is no you're not concentrating on something you're continuously uh flip-flopping over there. >> So undistorted gamma is when you're focusing on something. >> Yeah.
(1:26:04) You're reading let's say you're reading a book you're that's undistorted gamma. So what we have >> is that good to be an undistorted gamma. >> Yeah. When you learn education it's concentration. Okay. >> So what is happening with ADHD again is they can't do the gamma waves aren't that that strong. They aren't able to use their gamma waves as well.
(1:26:22) Now here meditation is helpful because meditation is basically all about alpha and theta waves. That's all. Meditation actually gets you into alpha is when your mind is calm but alert. Theta is when your mind is calm but sleepy, you know, drowsy. So meditation puts you there. And once you're in that state, okay, once you're in that state, uh it's very easy to now sort of make your way around this other pattern.
(1:26:51) So you have to break that pattern. You you cannot just stop it. You have to replace it with something. Yeah. >> Now it could it could be like a physical activity like mentioned. It could be >> uh so if yoga meditation is introduced in colleges and the dangers of this are taught to student to students in school. >> Yeah.
(1:27:08) >> Like you're right when we are small you could smoke you could smoke an aircraft. Okay. Uh you could smoke an aircraft once upon a time. I've smoked an aircraft so I know it's unbelin the last ain >> good times good times >> I remember the thrill of sitting in an aircraft because you're an aircraft >> what could you smoke an aircraft >> that time it was only cigarettes >> okay >> is again like >> so uh yeah >> high man >> the new drug is oxygen remember that >> but what was see at that time it was considered the in thing you know you
(1:27:43) wanted to be in you you smoked you know you smoke everything, you know, because because because because the Beatles did it and our our pop star did it, everybody did it. >> But then a gradual change happened like you mentioned where now smoking is not considered happening anymore. You know, it's not considered good to smoke.
(1:27:59) >> Um >> so that shift has to happen I believe in schools. Okay. M >> and uh the dangers of of of being on social media because see there's a difference between the way we perceive social media and this generation. We use it as a tool. We use it to communicate. We used to get information. They live in it. >> It's their reality.
(1:28:24) Okay? They live in it. Okay? It's not it's not outside of that. So once you live in it now everything that's happening there affects you directly. Right? Now there is only one way you must have something else that satisfy you where you get your dopamine fixed like you mentioned you know where you have your other neurotransmitters all balancing out >> so uh like we have a you something called glutamate which is a excitatory stimulus and there's gaba which is inhibitory all right >> so then you have to you have to use this balancing out there many in the brain
(1:28:57) there's a balance for everything all right so what you have to do is if something is working more you have to counter it with the other and that's when you get balance. >> So I think the solution is going to be in schools. Okay. I'm not so much worried about adult ADHD because most of the adult ADHDs I've met >> they're actually doing quite okay in life. Okay.
(1:29:16) They're they they they perceive they have this issue but they aren't doing >> they aren't doing badly. They're living independent lives. >> Figured it out. You to figure it out. >> I'm concerned about the children. Yeah. I'm I'm concerned about the children, the next generation who, you know, who who may go out and then >> not be able to read a book. Okay.
(1:29:33) I mean, just imagine that. I'm not saying boots are important, but you should be able to to do that not be and my main concern as I see more of them >> is their social awkwardness. If you if you know you see Elon Musk and Bill Gates, you'll notice a social awkwardness in them. >> And that I believe is a greater problem because now the interface between humans is lost.
(1:29:57) You know, we grew up when we came home, we played cricket with our building friends, okay? We we played whatever. You know, today there is there is no that human interaction is gone. Even in classrooms, people aren't interacting. You go out for holiday, you know, you go out for a holiday, a family holiday, and everybody's on their phone.
(1:30:09) I wonder that social awkwardness leads to weak social connection which then leads to mental health issues. >> Yes, it does. That's exactly correct. >> Human beings are everyone's had is this history notebook? No, this textbook humans are social animals. We live on like therapeutically we speaking we live on transactions.
(1:30:31) >> There has to be a give and take for us to feel like we exist and we are alive. That's why people whether good, bad, ugly, they want to talk to people. They want to interact with people. Some people get themselves into trouble knowing that there is trouble also because that's how we function. We are not meant to live in absolute loneliness.
(1:30:54) >> Okay? It's one thing to be solitude. It's another thing to be lonely. >> Right? And when you're removing the human factor from your daily life, literally it's going to just make human beings weaker. >> And I've got a simple solution. I tell people, decide three things to do for the day and decide it the night before.
(1:31:15) Okay? And write it down. And this is something I practice, you know. So whatever you want to do the next day, write it down. Because when you write it down, >> it it's your your sleep works on it. And then >> just decide three things. three things that will further your agenda, your cause, your purpose, your mission in life.
(1:31:30) >> Just do these three things. Now when you do them now, you get a dopamine high from that from having accomplished something and slowly uh and we've actually used this with people. We find that they change. It's a slow shift. >> Uh this is not like a it's like a ship that will slowly the r will turn around >> but you have to give them that option.
(1:31:47) It's a simple thing three things in the day that will further your agenda of life. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Yes. Yes, we we have to move into the final planned segment of the show. Okay. Uh because uh I think that currently especially around me I see this as a very relevant topic. >> Uh >> I don't know polite way of saying this.
(1:32:07) >> It's like substances mixed with the brain but it's substances that affect the brain. >> Okay. And I'm not just talking about like alcohol or we >> uh I categorize this in four different uh categories. >> The first one is neutropics. I think it's called like nura gum which has become a very popular thing in the west.
(1:32:25) >> It's basically chewing gum that makes your brain quicker >> and it's probably also the beginning of a larger story >> like the sto like the movie limitless where you you take something you become smarter. M >> second is uh very India specific uh medical marijuana has become legal but they just call it vijaya >> and you get gummies which you can just like order home from e-commerce websites >> I'd want to actually know what this is going to do for mental health in the long term very nuanced conversation >> okay
(1:32:57) >> third uh ketamine therapy which has been brought up on the show >> where a psychiatrist will take you through a psychedelic experience And fourth aspect is just free psychedelic therapy. Go to the Amazon, do I ask >> I just want to know this from brain experts, mushroom therapies, all that. Uh is when you guys go for your conferences where you'll meet peers from your industry, I'm sure this comes up as conversation.
(1:33:27) >> So surprisingly little. >> Yeah. So this is not really discussed much amongst at least amongst neurology colleagues. It very rarely comes up except for cannabis. >> Can I add a fifth one? >> Yeah. Yeah, please. >> Peptides. >> Okay. >> Which is the hot term in Silicon Valley now. >> I was going to say coffee and chai >> because literally that's the fuel of India as we are speaking >> like the biohacking wave that's going on. Everyone's using the word peptides.
(1:33:55) Right. >> So over to you guys >> and let's take it category by category and just I'd love to hear your opinions even if it's like you know negative opinions on these subjects. >> Yeah. So I'll talk about cannabis first. So the only um uh area where we talk about cannabis as a medical product is in epilepsy. So uh there are now a couple of uh very good studies that had come out that in drugresistant epilepsies uh where other medications don't work epilepsy seizure there are cannabis based medicines that have worked. So essentially cannabis or
(1:34:35) THC acts on CB-1 CB2 receptors in the brain and both of these receptors influence the way that neurochemicals go across the sinapses as sir was talking about. So sinaps is the space between neurons. Neurotransmitters go from sinaps uh neuron to neuron and CB-1 CB2 receptors will affect those transmissions.
(1:34:58) It can basically slow the whole thing down. So if somebody's having seizures that means unregulated electrical activity this can just calm down the whole thing. Now most cases of marijuana use is not for this. >> It is for recreation. Right? People either take it as a gummy or they smoke it. Now for a long time people thought no harm.
(1:35:20) Right? People thought that cigarettes are harmful but marijuana cigarettes are not harmful. That is not true. So the harm that cigarettes cause is from the carbon particles that you're inhaling. Uh marijuana cigarettes have the same problem. If you're lighting up a joint, you can get all the problems that cigarettes can cause.
(1:35:39) The tar carbon particles go into your lungs. And cannabis itself over a long term 10 years, 20 years can cause cognitive slowing. So it is not like this safe thing that people assume it is. Now the last time I spoke about this on a podcast there were 100 comments saying oh I've been smoking for 5 years and nothing happened.
(1:36:00) Sure there are a lot of people who have smoked cigarettes and nothing happened. But the chances are like 6 out of 10 7 out of 10 people get some problem over a over a lifetime. It's the same thing here. You can get early onset memory loss if you've been smoking marijuana for a long time because logically you're smoking a chemical that is going into your brain to numb everything down.
(1:36:23) The problem is that for some people who are anxious, smoking that cigarette calms them down enough that now they can focus. Which is why a lot of people say that, "Oh, I've smoked a blunt and now I can focus. I'm locked in for 4 hours." >> Sure, but you are using a harmful way to solve a harm that is already happening.
(1:36:45) >> Right? So that doesn't really work. You are kind of damaging yourself from both sides. So if you are anxious, find a healthier solution than this. >> Yeah, for sure. I I have a lot of clients who actually do this micro doing. They are like, "Oh, but I'm not doing the whole thing. I'm doing I'm like, yeah, this is like again slow poison.
(1:37:08) Poisonous poison, >> right? And with alcohol, >> they just, you know, it's it's also glorified by culture. The 6:00 a.m. Sorry, the 6 p.m. sundowner alcohol. Huh. end of the day unwinding ritual they some people have made it a ritual right and it really helps them regulate and it's sad right because the anxiety levels are then that high that they need to do this on a daily basis now you know the body becomes tolerant after a certain period of time so it's difficult like with respect to like since you spoke about psychedelics I've had a couple of clients go do
(1:37:49) psyched And my my experience is that they've come very enthusiastically and they're like, "Oh, I did this. I went I went to and I did Iaska." And I'm like, "Okay, great. All right. So, what did you find?" >> And they're like, "Oh, we found these facts like, you know, I have this insecurity and I have this block and I have this this this and I'm like, didn't we talk about this in therapy?" M >> so I genuinely feel not tooting my own horn but if you do that kind of deep level work right uh there was nothing new that my clients came and told me
(1:38:28) that we had not spoken about already >> I guess maybe the bend is curiosity that maybe I'll find something new over there but honestly if you show that authenticity without inhibition >> in therapy You don't need the drug >> is the fear of being, you know, figuratively naked >> mentally in front of somebody, >> right? I've taken away the anxiety by just inducing the drug into your system and removed all those inhibitions so you can speak, you know, like how Dr.
(1:39:02) Aloc says, you know, kids, no inhibitions. They'll tell you like it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um these herbs were meant to be uh the psychologists for people in the jungle who didn't have access to >> Yeah. >> mental health professionals. >> Uh but they're being abused by >> Yes. >> urban dwellers or >> Yes. >> Uh have you >> seen bad effects come out of psychedelic use? >> Uh not personally. No.
(1:39:30) I think like uh just to add to Dr. said I think when um marijuana is used medically for like paliative care >> poppy seeds for cancer for pain for people who are in >> you know pain that you can't imagine >> okay fine all right but this recreational already we are doom scrolling >> we don't need to add the >> vijaya candy >> vijaya candy and all those things we don't need to do that cocktail to our system.
(1:40:03) >> I have this take on anything that can change your cognition. I think we should treat these chemicals with a lot of respect. >> Yes. >> Which I feel is not given uh when it comes to lighting a maruana joint or going on an ayahosa journey. Ayoska at least there is a lot of ritual around it. >> Yes.
(1:40:30) and you feel like okay you've done something huge >> if that same level of respect is attributed to maruana I would actually not be so harsh on it because I believe that anything that can cause an altered state of consciousness is a powerful thing right because it is changing the way you look at the world and that is a powerful tool there are now I think recently 3 four years ago there was a study that came out of uh Brown Duke's University >> on mushrooms.
(1:41:02) So psilocybin uh being treated being used as a treatment for drugresistant depression with incredibly good results. So patients who've not responded to anything else, one dose of psilocybin and 6 months later still seeing they have a lot of improvement. So anything that is capable of creating that level of altered state of consciousness is potentially opening a door where you can now add therapy into that and change the way that they look at things.
(1:41:33) ECT is at a very broad level doing the same thing. >> But if you are doing it as a recreation, >> are you giving it that respect? And if you're not respecting something that powerful, it can harm you. M that's my large take on it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to put a neuroscience perspective to this. We've already discussed the subconscious mind and the conscious mind.
(1:41:59) Basically this is the higher brain, the PFC and the lyic system. What all these psychedelics do? And okay so before that if I were to use an analogy the lyic system or the subconscious mind is the accelerator in the car. >> The PFC is the brakes. It's our frontal cortex that tells us what not to do. If we didn't have a frontal cortex we would be just another animal.
(1:42:31) Right? So there the brakes there the accelerator and the brake. Now what all these psychedelics do is they take off the brakes. Okay. So now you have your limbic system, you have your emotions, you have your subconscious mind which is there and once that good, bad, right, wrong, all that goes off, you are now in in a very different state. Uh my take on this is using any anything whether it's tobacco or alcohol or marana or alaska once in a while or occasionally there is no harm in it.
(1:43:02) Okay. I I the harm comes when you start using it regularly. >> And the basic reason why the why I I you know I'm upset when somebody's using it all the time is because what it does fundamentally to your sleep pattern in our sleep you know we have four stages of sleep. The first three are nonrem and the last ism.
(1:43:29) In them sleep the mind is doing housekeeping. It's actually taking all the the emotional trauma of the day, connecting it to memories in the past and converting it into dreams. All these psychedelics destroy the sleep pattern. This sleep pattern is extremely important for our mental health. It is extremely important for our physical health.
(1:43:49) It is extremely important for all disease patterns. And we've done a podcast on sleep. You know, we discussed this in great detail. >> You're also including tobacco and alcohol in the same category. >> Everything. I'm saying everything. anything that intoxicates >> because what these do is they basically hijack the synapses like set said so we so we have nerves I'll just exemplify what he said we have nerves all the nerves are connected through a gap there's a physical gap one nerve here one nerve here there's a gap and the transmission of electric current through
(1:44:14) this gap is through a chemical all these agents hijack this okay they they take it over and now you know what should naturally happen doesn't happen and this is my Main concern with these is the effect it has on sleep >> because now everything else gets disrupted. So you get temporary relief. You feel good for some time >> but it messes you up completely because internally your natural systems of mental housekeeping, physical housekeeping all of that >> completely go away.
(1:44:45) So when you get sleep for example your brain actually contracts uh because there is a lot of waste matter produced in the brain through what is called the lymphatic it's called the glimpmphatic system. M >> all the toxins in the brain that's you know you notice if you don't you sleep 2 3 hours at night and when you wake up how you feeling you're feeling sick you're not feeling good because the toxic material has not been washed away it's literally like you know you you have a room it's it all gets messed up clothes here there bathroom clean and
(1:45:09) when you come back nothing is clean how would you feel so once in a while all these things are okay so long as your prefrontal cortex knows what it is doing right >> if you want to do the you're sitting group of friends and you want you know you want to spend time exploring that's fine the danger is in the addiction not in the chemical >> right because the addiction then messes up the natural systems that's why basic fundamental >> but things like alawaska because there is a ceremony now now there is there's the other side the good side
(1:45:44) >> particularly things like alawaska because see a lot of things that imprison us okay that don't let us do what we want is the pain and the trauma that is there in our subconscious mind. Very often things from childhood that have told us what to do, what not to do and that limits us. You want to do stuff but the already programmed subconscious not letting you do it.
(1:46:08) >> So if this is done ceremonially okay then it actually releases some of that. So there are reports of it being very very useful. you know I have not taken it but I've contemporary taking it just to explore you know what it is like to free up your subconscious so there is a good side to it okay uh but when it gets anything good if you misuse you know will will cause damage >> um okay little brutal question to all three of you >> okay and sorry in advance >> uh if yall are comfortable with it on a scale of 1 to 10
(1:46:44) >> at this stage of life where are your mental health levels right now. >> Oh, interesting. >> One being terrible and >> one being terrible and 10 being perfect. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> Because no one's life is perfect. >> In fact, I've only met monks on my show where I felt like, yeah, they're all right.
(1:47:04) >> I don't think I've met any other profession which is all right. >> I just wonder how the brain doctors are. So to preface it I I would if I can describe what a good mental health state is. If you have the capa and this is health overall not just mental health. If you have the capacity to function and do whatever it is that you are motivated to do and any obstacle that you face whether physically or mentally if you have the resilience to overcome that.
(1:47:35) So whether it's an infection or whether it's your boss saying you have to you're fired that's a mental obstacle if you have the capacity to absorb that recover from it and get back to functionality that is health >> right whether that's physical health or mental health from that perspective everybody has an upper limit like you could be the healthiest person in the world mentally or physically and something big enough can break you so there's nobody who has perfect mental health.
(1:48:09) Eventually, a bad enough incident can break you. >> The only thing you could hope for is >> something that has broken you last year, >> would it break you today? >> Yeah. >> And if the answer is no, that means that you are healthier. >> Yeah. >> And that's all you can hope for in life. >> That's a really good adaptive nervous system.
(1:48:31) That's what we're looking for, you know. And technically, we call it a veagal tone. >> Yes. a tone, >> a veagal tone like in your vag system, right? You have uh the capacity to move from a joyous state to something fearful, maybe collapse, but also again come back. >> Okay? >> You know, so you're going up and down a sort of a ladder.
(1:48:57) Okay? Think of yourself on a ladder. Okay? Where you have an optimal, functional, joyous space. Then you have what we call fight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? And then you have a complete state of like collapse which also serves you >> when you need to be served. Like when it's it's going to protect you at certain points in some cases, some cases maybe not.
(1:49:22) Maybe it's so overpowering the stimulus that it breaks you. >> Can you come back from that? Can you go back up one notch and then find this? then go here. >> There's a Hindi word for this. I don't know the English equal. The Hindi word is terta. >> But how stability stability >> so good nervous system is like adaptability to be adaptive and >> equinim equanimity.
(1:49:47) >> Equinimity equanimity. >> Equinimity is a wonderful word that actually explains that >> same as veagal toll. >> So terta has a slightly different connotation. It assumes that you are immovable. M >> that is not the case with human beings. We are not meant to be immovable. So the idea of mental stability I think is pushed a little too much.
(1:50:10) None of us are stable. Imagine you are in an ocean right and you're swimming. A wave comes. It will push you behind. Doesn't mean that you're not a swimmer. >> Yeah. >> Right. A wave will come. It'll push you behind. But if you have the energy, can you swim forward? And then it >> enjoy the wave. Maybe you want to do that. >> And now if you are a 5year-old, even a small wave will push you behind.
(1:50:36) If you're 30 and you're an athlete level swimmer, a small wave will not push you behind. At what level would you say you're 10 on 10 healthy? Like that doesn't make sense. >> But if you are a good swimmer, you can keep swimming. >> And as you go back, if a big enough wave will come, you will feel threatened. So your body will go into a sympathetic state.
(1:51:00) You'll feel threatened, you'll feel afraid. So like ma'am said, you can go into either fight where you like fight the wave or flight where you might say okay I don't want to swim anymore or fawn where you'll say please wave I don't want to swim you know you are trying to fawn or try to gain the wave's approval so that the wave doesn't push you back.
(1:51:18) >> Yeah like befriending >> befriend all of these are defense mechanism or freeze. Uh >> I can't do >> what this question on a scale of 10 >> on a scale of 10 >> yeah we we have to commit we >> I think uh >> I think my nervous system is pretty adaptable. So >> on a scale of 10 >> seven 10 being good and one being very bad.
(1:51:41) >> I think on most days I would be like >> I would like to think seven eight >> a bad day would be a six maybe. But I've also like >> keeping in mind the people I'm around and all those things, I think I bounce back faster >> for sure. >> Then four to eight would be a better answer. I have had days where I'm four.
(1:52:01) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like >> the reason I asked the three of you this question is because you'll constantly meet people who are on a much lower end of that scale. >> What's yours? >> Mine Mine is a nine. Oh, lovely. I love it. >> It's that oxygenation. >> It's all the oxygenation. Okay, I'll tell you the reason.
(1:52:21) So, I live life one day at a time only. Okay, >> one day I wake up in the morning. I wake up to I go to my balcony and I say I actually say it loudly. I've been doing it for many years. Today is the 9th of July 2026 and this day will never come in my life again. >> So, I'm going to make today special and and it took me almost 5 to 10 years to get to this date.
(1:52:40) >> So, when you start living life one day at a time and you make each day special. Now, it's not like unpleasant things don't happen. Bad things happen, horrible things happen. Okay. But I will still tell myself today is still going to be the special because this day is not going to come my life again. >> Doctor said, >> um, so my number would be 4 to 8 because on some days it's a four and some days it's an eight.
(1:53:05) And for me >> I I'll know that I'm healthy if I can come back from 4 to 8. >> So earlier I used to I realized that I was under so much pressure from myself to be an eight all the time. Mhm. >> And I think this is something that medical students go through because you are a you're a doctor. You're in a you're in a hospital.
(1:53:24) People are suffering all around. You have to be composed, calm. >> You are not allowed to suffer. The idea that you can suffer is an alien one. You almost learn to suppress that. And it took me a long time to realize that I have been suppressing so much of my taken off your plate. >> Correct.
(1:53:45) So, it's taken me a lot of effort to just wake up and admit that you know what, I'm not feeling good today. >> I'm not happy. Just to say this much took so long. The first time I said it, my wife was like, "Wow, you're a new person." >> And turns out she knew all along when I was unhappy. It's just that I didn't know.
(1:54:07) So it's almost like an exercise for me if I am sad that I am sad because that's how I know that okay next day is a six and the next day is an eight. >> If I say every day is an eight >> something's wrong with you if every day is an eight. >> So I have I kind of I've kind of embraced that now. Okay, some days it's a four, some days and honestly uh having that two extra points >> gives me a little bit of wiggle room because some days is really special.
(1:54:32) you know like so I I go diving that's my personal joy >> so there are moments when I'm underwater >> which are not comparable to all the other moments of my life so I cannot say that I'm an eight there also and here also this is a 15 >> so I like that fluctuation >> and I feel like the more you are able to fluctuate >> the better it is right because I think structures which are too uh rigid can break but if you are able to kind of flow more you are able to bear things better so on some days I want to be a four >> you know that's just
(1:55:14) >> yeah that's really authentic like it takes a lot and especially like uh I'm going to say it in whatever manner but I think it's so difficult for men to be authentic in that state and be like I am not okay because of all the cultural priming that has happened that you know it's okay to be angry it's not okay to be sad.
(1:55:38) >> Huh? >> You know and then when people are doing it differently it's really really like refreshing to see that. >> Yeah. So the the the challenge is that just because you don't say that you're sad doesn't mean your body is not sad. >> Correct. >> It doesn't mean that you are not suffering all the neurochemical consequences of sadness.
(1:55:58) It's just that now you have not addressed a problem that is facing you anyway. >> So then you're wondering why are all these things happening? It's happening because you're sad. >> So the sooner you admit it, the easier it is to fix. >> M okay. There is a tangential question that sprouts out of the your answers >> which is that all that remaining two points remaining three points remaining one point.
(1:56:22) >> Mhm. >> Would you be open to taking >> Dr. Licensed ketamine therapy. Wait a second. What was What was your number? What is your number? >> Um >> I swing >> before latent and after latent. >> Yeah, >> I was going to say he's gone through a lot. >> That's a very apt uh you know input. >> Uh cut. >> No, no, no. It won't it won't be cut.
(1:56:52) It won't be cut. >> All right. uh because I actually think that this is something I can share with the world and I think it's an important life learning ad which is linked to a lot of the topics we spoke about. Mhm. >> Um so 4 years pre-laten I moved out of my mom's house moved into Versova to grow the show. >> It grew like crazy but as it kept growing I felt like I kept getting lonier and sadder >> and a year prior to latent happening I think was like my worst phase of mental health uh where I should have actually
(1:57:21) come to you ma'am but uh I was just too much in my momentum of work. So in that phase I was 110% between like a 1 and five. >> Okay. >> Okay. And uh >> once latent happened there was such a large explosion. Obviously during it I was like a.1 but >> you might have been a minus also. I wouldn't be surprised rightfully.
(1:57:45) So >> I had I had a lot of funny people around me. >> That village is important. Yeah, we've documented all this and anyway that I was definitely a point one in that phase maybe 2 three 6 months post that also I was on like a one two >> uh >> I'm going to say so since my relationship has begun like for me I've just realized over years that when I'm in a stable relationship it really >> what's the word for it like regulates helps me regulate myself and this relationship is going somewhere >> that that range now uh because of the
(1:58:23) relationship but also because I understand how the world works better. I understand how human society works and I understand how temporary everything is >> including adulation and fame. >> Uh I'm very light right now and now I swing between a six and an eight. >> Oh, that's cool. >> Yeah.
(1:58:41) Which is uh and it's not just for the sake of good PR and good branding. I'm actually like in a much more light place. M >> so uh I see the I feel like I'm a whole new person but I had to go to that point and to reach the a higher range >> because your priorities also shift very heavily and your definition of what matters really changes for very long I've toyed with the idea of living in Goa >> and I'm trying to now just equate that whole reality >> we will come visit >> yeah the the dream the dream is to host like >> see I call all of you guys all star of
(1:59:13) the podcast because we've done multiple episodes. So dream is to have these allstar based podcasts but out of go where I get to host my friends over a weekend in my house and we also get to create cont because my friends are really smart. So >> uh that's the creative dream. Now let's see >> but >> write it before you sleep.
(1:59:30) >> Oh yeah, please write this. It's also such a challenge um because none of us really know how to deal with social media. >> It's it's not something that we have learned over the last thousand years. No, it's also changing like continuously. >> Absolutely. So, >> I mean for someone so seasoned like him, he has to keep adapting to like what's happening, >> right? So, when we are dealing with social media backlash, >> it's such a new phenomenon like for the brain, for us as a human being, how do we deal with a million people upset at
(2:00:03) us, but all of them anonymous? >> That's not something that we know. >> It it's so new and so novel that you don't feel bad. M >> he was like oh it's like you know when you touch those thousand pins together one of the pins doesn't poke you it's kind of like that >> so it it became like maybe that was my perspective and the perspective of the people around me but >> it was uh numbing in a very nice way like not I wouldn't say nice but you know what I mean like you know that thing in terms of what I want to give
(2:00:33) the world is uh >> I don't know whether it's an antidote or whatever I want to call it but uh basically I think this firestorm happens in everyone's life at some It could happen in the form of a parent's death. It could happen like >> you know something could go down. I'm sure you guys have seen versions of it.
(2:00:52) >> But also the phase that preceded this firestorm was a very nice face >> and even that happened very randomly. >> The only thing that stayed constant through it was the actions >> and perhaps the self narrative. >> So yeah. So one of the things that the brain unfortunately plays a trick on is that when things are going very bad >> um we go we go into our primitive brains >> and our primitive brain does not understand the concept of time >> primitive brain okay >> so like our lyic system uh our emotional brain doesn't understand that this
(2:01:30) calamity is not forever >> so to the primitive brain it's only here and now. So if it is there that means it is there forever and that's it's I'm never coming out of it. So this is actually a great advice to give which is just put one step in front of the other because the element that we don't think about is time.
(2:01:51) We always think about oh how do I solve it? What action can I take to solve this problem? >> It's actually just time >> like time will take you out of it. time will calm down everything and then you go from your limbic to your prefrontal you are able to think rationally again and then you are able to find better solutions but for that you just need time >> anything that can help you pass the time is a healing >> I have to end that last tangent we were on about neurotropics peptides I mean >> uh okay the way I would position this question is that um a couple of things
(2:02:30) there's So there's Iawaska where people often report meeting an entity which is female and then that female entity guides you through the process. >> Uh I don't remember which university it is. I think it's Stanford but they've started this thing called drip therapy of uh DMT where through an IV uh the DMT is administered.
(2:02:49) >> Yeah. >> That sustains your trip for longer >> where everyone who's going through that therapy reports seeing the same I think township. They all go to a physical place where they able to interact with entities and come back with knowledge. >> Um, this is one I don't even know why I'm placing this thought module.
(2:03:09) I found it very interesting. >> Uh, could it be that higher realities are opening up? Uh, second second aspect that I'd like to bring up here is uh this ketamine therapy thing which is legal in India if medically supervised. We had a psychiatrist on the show some time ago. um Dr. Atre and she has a clinic right here on Ju and she does these like ketamine journeys for people.
(2:03:36) >> Yeah. >> Um >> now the question is to you guys not as medical professionals but as um human beings >> would you do this ketamine therapy to make up for those lack of two points lack of one point like as doctors what are your opinions? >> No >> no >> I would not >> you wouldn't. >> Okay. Wow.
(2:03:58) out of curiosity maybe but not as a way to be happy >> none of this leads to happiness that's a different journey >> yeah and it would be so temporary like what am I going to do with this temporariness I think it's also because of the sort of people that we are >> we're basing our answers on that right so >> you think there are there's a prototype in terms of a person who is suited to a therapy like that >> maybe yeah if you're looking out for if you're somebody addicted to like temporary relief that's your person >> like drug addiction.
(2:04:28) >> It could be drug addiction. It could be I mean drug any kind of addiction comes from some sort of mostly some sort of trauma, right? It's not just about drugs. It's about the addiction itself. It could be porn, it could be substance, it could be shopping. So I mean if you're looking for temporary relief then maybe you'll go in that direction.
(2:04:50) >> Okay. So ketamine therapy does have a role to play in psychiatric treatment. >> Yeah, it does. and it's it's pretty potent and it's shown great results. >> So essentially it creates like an uncoupling of your consciousness. So you don't become unconscious in ketamine. You just have um sensory dissociation.
(2:05:09) So you no longer feel but you are still aware. So people with ketamine therapy or people who have undergone ketamine anesthesia sometimes report out of body experiences where they feel disconnected from their body. So there are um and these windows are potential you know um opportunities for therapy for changing somebody's uh thought process for changing the way they think about something.
(2:05:39) So just giving you an example suppose if somebody is really afraid of fire they've been in a fire accident at some point and so every time they see fire they feel traumatized. Now theoretically when you are going through ketamine therapy you could talk about fire without having that sensory experience of it being all over you and all of that and so you are able to rewire the way you look at fire.
(2:06:00) This is theoretically. So these are great areas to explore to look at how can we use these drugs for medical treatment. Um but not something that you do when you're eight on 10 and you just want two more points. >> Let's do two more. I sort of reinforce what he says. There is a medical need for this where I think it's very useful.
(2:06:21) >> Yeah. >> Uh but I don't think it should be used as an exploration something to try because you never know the other side. You never know what happens. >> A lot of it's uncontrolled because you're not supervised after that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Not supervised after that as >> and you go home and then you don't know what's what's happening after that.
(2:06:36) >> It can still be in your system and >> no it's short acting but but still you know you don't know what you've what you've unleashed within yourself and you might find it difficult to handle. So yes, there's a medical need. If you want to open a window for a particular treatment and you need this, I think it's definitely a great >> Yeah.
(2:06:56) >> You know, >> uh I had a friend I think who was diagnosed with BPD once >> and she had ended up doing uh a mushroom therapy >> and she's one of the only people that I have heard >> say that it was not good for me. It unleashed a lot. Yeah, >> I mean to be very honest even weed does that for some people.
(2:07:16) It'll you know it's supposed to put you in a zen space but I have known of people who've gone into absolute fren frenzy and like anxiety attacks like panic attacks >> like a bad trip. >> Yeah. Like if that's what you want to call it. Yeah. >> The remnants of that remain like after >> Yeah. I mean she remembers it.
(2:07:37) So that's the thing like I think it also depends on what point of your life are you taking it and >> a lot of you know genetically if you're susceptible to like you know just putting it like psychosis for example if there's bad mental health in your family >> and you've decided to go on a trip right >> you might just cross over and go on a trip forever >> because see essentially what do the psychedelics do like LSD or uh mushrooms they act on your serotonin network.
(2:08:08) So serotonin is the way that you perceive reality and when your serotonin uh receptors get changed and there is a flooding of serotonin your reality starts to shift. Now we are assuming that once the chemical leaves your brain you are able to go back to your old reality. >> What if it doesn't? >> So then what if your reality remains shifted? It's still rare but there are reports of psychedelic induced psychosis where people have had like almost uh schizophrenia like symptoms where they're unable to come back to this
(2:08:44) reality. >> So it is a risk especially like ma'am said if there is history of schizophrenia in your family if there's history of psychosis it is again I'll go back to this anything that creates altered sense of state altered consciousness um should be treated with the utmost respect. >> There's a price you pay to alter your consciousness. Yeah.
(2:09:04) Yeah. On some and I mean it's very unfortunate at least you know with respect to uh physical medical ailments we will know acha my grandfather had it my mother had it my chacha had it my mama had it mental health most people are not able to tell me whether there's somebody in their family who's experienced anything I would have to ask you a question like hey do you think there was somebody in your family who you felt was different for example like and if they were different, what was it like? >> Yeah.
(2:09:35) >> You know, what did you experience or what did you hear or whatever it is? Like people have no idea what's happening in their families with respect to mental health. >> You would have to diagnose them first before >> Yeah. Like I'm like and I'm like it needs to change. Like go home, find out, ask questions.
(2:09:51) And >> unfortunately back in the day a lot of stuff went undiagnosed. It would just be like anger. >> Yeah. >> You know if someone's hitting you it's just anger. No, it's not anger. It's way too frequent to be anger. >> So, >> okay, I think we're almost out of time. >> Mhm. >> Which is why this final question. >> No.
(2:10:12) >> Uh, did you guys like gain anything from just like this interaction today? >> Oh, it was great fun. >> So much fun. >> Was it stimulating with like the students? >> Yes. >> Oh, yeah. I think all of us are always looking for people like this to sit and like it feels like we're hanging out and chilling out.
(2:10:31) It doesn't feel like oh we're here for an academic conversation. >> It's just been so >> interesting thing is all three of us are neuroscientists you know >> but all three of us look at the brain differently. >> She sees it from the mind point of view and the mindfulness point of view. >> Sid sees it from the neurological disease disorder >> neurochemistry drugs point of view.
(2:10:52) I'm a surgeon. I like to fix things. So I like to see things from how do you fix it? You know >> now because all three of us are looking at the same thing differently. This is a complete holistic approach you know. >> So so that's the beauty of what we are sharing that we are looking at the same thing.
(2:11:08) We're just looking at it from different perspectives >> and then what this leads to is a complete picture. Got >> um the final question for you guys because peptides and neurotropics new topics >> uh they are the hot topics now. uh say in the next 3 to 5 years peptides become legal in India, >> neutropics become the rage. Would you guys take it yourselves? >> No.
(2:11:31) >> Uh no. >> Yeah. >> I will okay I'll explain um like a way that I explained to a patient recently who asked me this question. >> Imagine if you have a glass okay and that's your like your brain health. >> Now you fill the water all throughout. Maybe the last couple of drops that you're adding before it starts to spill that is neutropics and peptides. Okay.
(2:11:58) So yes, there is a chance that neutropics and peptides will improve your brain health. But compared to what is going to improve your brain health the most, this is a smaller percentage >> like sleep. Good night. >> Yes, absolutely. So if your basics are not in place, no amount of neutropics or peptides can fix it.
(2:12:23) But if your basics are in place, think of athletes, right? So uh the physical equivalent in athletes, say Ronaldo, he'll sleeping well, eating well, exercising, sure, but he will still go that extra mile to gain that slight edge over his opponent. >> That makes sense. But if you are a cognitive athlete and you want to function at that level and everything else is sorted, sure try it up.
(2:12:50) >> But just peptides or neutropics is not going to make a difference if you are sleepd deprived or stressed. >> It it won't help. I mean it's never helped if you the honestly my first session is all about fixing people's rhythms. >> Yeah. If you are not sleeping, if you are not eating, if you're only on coffee, and then you're telling me you're anxious, >> yeah, >> I can't I can't fix this.
(2:13:18) You're going to have to go fix it in the first week. At least start that rhythm >> so that we can start thinking and talking clearly from that perspective. If your nervous system is upside down, >> whatever I say, sure, you'll understand. >> Okay. Will you be able to do it? you won't be able to translate it. >> So, it's all in that translation where the work lies.
(2:13:42) And I think that's the difficult part like no one wants to put in the discipline or the hard work, you know, it's just easier to do the the short-term thing and fix fix. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh any point sir? >> No, nothing. Again, uh I believe all these things have a medical purpose. So, there are medical indications where these things are useful.
(2:14:02) Various neurological conditions. Yeah, >> I was among the first to start using this for head trauma at scan hospital for stroke. So there are medical indications where this works but I would not take it uh for the reasons people are taking it now. >> What I found in medicine is if something is indicated biologically and you use that intervention >> only good things happen.
(2:14:23) >> But if it's not indicated okay and you use that >> nothing good will come out of it. Okay. So there is a medical need but definitely not for just you know >> brain enhancement brain boosting. >> Okay. >> And just um one thing that keeps coming up uh in health in health conversation is that anything that previously took 6 months of effort.
(2:14:51) >> If someone is saying that here is an intervention that will give you the same result in one week. it's likely to be a scam. >> Now, maybe they intend it, maybe they mean it, >> but it will eventually get proven to be a scam because that's simply not how biology works. >> Exactly. >> Right.
(2:15:13) So, if some chemical reaction or a muscle building or a a neural network getting built, if that takes 6 months and if you are able to push it into one week, >> that will have consequences that you will find out later. >> Yeah. So it's the same thing with GLP ones also. >> I was just going to say that >> you can do it for a I mean a year or two max after that it's all on you.
(2:15:36) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So all healing because any intervention that supports the body's healing will take time. Now here there is a difference between the western approach to disease and the eastern view of thinking. M >> the western the American you know they approach disease like a villain like an enemy you go after it you medicate it radiate it you know okay AK-47 destroy it operate it so they look at disease as a villain eastern thinking Indian Tibetan Chinese look at disease and disorder as a victim not as a villain and say something has
(2:16:13) gone wrong either genetically environmentally lifestyle that something has given way and the philosophy of eastern medicine is make the body stronger, improve the body's immune system. So there are just two different ways of looking at it. Of course, there are times you have to combine both. >> So when you improve the body's ability to handle the situation and this takes time, the western is about quick results, you know, get results right now. Whereas this takes time.
(2:16:40) Anything that makes the body heal itself will take its time. You can't fast track it. you if if if you know if you have a skin cut the surgeon can suture it but that healing will take few days if you have a broken bone that will take its time you can't fast track it >> so likewise all diseases uh where you use interventions to heal they firstly they are safe they take their time and they give you more finite results they are not transient results where you take something you feel good for a while and then that disappears
(2:17:11) >> so I think this is the different approach and we have to somehow combine both you You know we have to use >> the eastern system method you know thought process of healing and maybe use western technology like I told you >> yoga is about pranayam you know which is also hyperaric oxygen now since we can't do it you put yourself in a machine you know and get the same result you're using the technology >> to give healing the eastern way >> got it okay uh I was going to summarize this entire episode >> wow >> good luck with that
(2:17:45) >> ahead But then I thought, ah, maybe not. So, thanks for being here, guys. Uh, this is a lot of fun. Thanks for giving us our first summarized by saying, what did you get from this episode? >> Um, social, physical, and intellectual and spiritual activities are very important to keep your brain healthy in the long >> and your mind uh hearty.
(2:18:11) >> That's that's what I gain. >> Okay. uh in like one line. Of course, I've oversimplified uh after the overload, he's like physical, mental, spiritual. >> I I was going to go about every point. But uh I think uh well, it's about like finding physical rhythm, intellectual rhythm, spiritual rhythm >> and try staying there as much as you can.
(2:18:37) Also anticipate the firestorms uh will come but uh be be kind of mentally ready to >> traverse through them >> and seek help >> you know if you if you can't handle yourself not everyone can do it themselves I think >> seek help is a great great takeway >> yeah u in saying all this I'm waiting for neural link to become legal and usable and then I just want to see what it'll do I do think that that's going to be the next stage of human evidence >> why would you want Um just I'm curious.
(2:19:07) >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> It's very very interesting because only thing is it'll mod you'll be able to modulate your brain instantly which is good but it's also dangerous because you know you might want to keep feeling happy all the time which is which may not necessarily be very productive. So I I I also have like a very strange kind of input on what true happiness is for me but like the absolute peak of happiness I felt was when my meditation habit was very very strong.
(2:19:36) The physical fitness stuff has always been strong but uh there was a phase where I meditate every day for maybe like 3 4 years >> and as you keep meditating regularly and you make it longer basically your meditation technique is able to lead you to a place of thoughtlessness >> and that state of thoughtlessness was my 10 on 10 happiness >> and as I kept maintaining that over a couple of years my average happiness had increased a lot >> that that's you like really conquering your nervous system.
(2:20:04) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> if you look at your autonomic nervous system, there is the sympathetic side and the parasympathetic side. And you're it's supposed to be equal, but all of us are so experienced in navigating the sympathetic side, which is hustling, going after things, running after things, >> growth, all of that.
(2:20:22) >> There is we have experienced anxiety. We have experienced panic. We have experienced extreme panic. >> But very few of us have experienced the other side. What does it mean to go so deep into parasympathetic? >> Because if you can go one way, your nervous system has the capacity to go the other as well. >> But we haven't experienced it.
(2:20:44) And I think that is what true meditation gives you. >> Not not sleeping >> but consciously going to the depth of parasympathetic will seem something like this >> where there is no anxiety where you're completely in a blissful state. I think that scares people also because they get so used to living in an anxious state, in a burnt out state.
(2:21:06) >> They don't know what they're going to do or what happy looks like. Also, building happy is very hard. >> Yeah, >> very hard. Negative addictions are just so quick. So quick. >> That's the unfortunate thing, right? For those who are used to noise, >> silence can seem like a threat. >> Yes, that's true. >> Right. They cannot be bored.
(2:21:29) They cannot sit for even a minute without interruption stimulation >> all the time. >> Which is why people are always on the phone. Even in a break in conversation, there is a feeling because second is because we are so used to being in the sympathetic side of things, >> right? So the parasympathetic >> is one that we should explore.
(2:21:53) Like we all have the capacity in us >> to go into parasympathetic but we don't because we're scared. We're so used to this. >> Yeah. You know how Elon Musk says that probably 10 years from now jobs won't be a thing >> and everything will be taken care of. Some utopian version of socialism will begin. >> Uh I think people if that is the case I think people should concern themselves with physical health, mental health and the spiritual health.
(2:22:17) I mean even if it's not the case people should still concern themselves >> like we learned to be bored. If you ask a kid nowadays to be bored oh man >> why just the kid like a young adult also they're like bored? What's bored? Let's go get coffee. Let's do this. Let's do that. D I'm like no sit. >> Like what do you mean sit? I'm like sit.
(2:22:40) >> Elaborate further on what you said sympathetic and parasympathetic. I'll just elaborate a little further. The sympathetic nervous system has been given to us by nature to save our lives. >> So when the lion is chasing the deer, the deer has to run like hell to save his life.
(2:22:54) That time your blood pressure has to go up, your heart rate has to go up, all your you need maximum glucose. So glycogen converts to glucose, you know. So your entire body, your muscles are tight, your uh anal sphincters have to shut down, you can't pass tools. Now this is the body sucks in all the energy and pushes it to the heart, muscle and brain.
(2:23:14) Now this is meant to be used once in a while when your life is in danger. But what are we doing? We are using this all the time. So something which nature gave us to use once in a while we are using it all the time. >> We are just we are on >> the sympathetic nervous system is destructive because it you know it it takes everything maximum and destroys stuff just to save your life.
(2:23:35) Nature's given us a parallel system the parasympathetic nervous system that he spoke about that does the exact opposite. You know it lowers the heart rate, lowers the blood pressure, converts, reduces glucose, lets your endless spinters open, has a effect on your pupil dilation. Now this is meant now when is this activated? Like we were sitting outside and three of us were having coffee and discussing this a parasympathetic goes on when you're with friends when you chill when you know >> it automatically comes on. Now nature
(2:24:00) has given us this compensation problem. We don't use that. All right. We our sympathetic nervous system is so on all the time. So what was given to us to be used once in a while to save our life we are using it all the time >> and that system is destructive and all modern illnesses hypertension diabetes renal failure cardiac all are >> all all of them are because of over stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system >> and gastric issues like a lot of people with IBS oh my god like >> so everything is >> you're always stressed like it's
(2:24:31) >> acidity reflux >> yeah yeah >> um you know what I would have died to bring into this conversation would have been >> no no it's the thing is you know to do justice to this topic I think we need philosophers in the room >> what is it >> consciousness >> oh >> I think it's related to what all three of youall are doing but I think that's a great sequel episode >> we should do that with philosophers in the room like monks or >> something you know uh so let's end this episode here because this opens up a whole >> Thank you for having this vision
(2:25:02) >> really fun thank you for being here I have a activity to recommend to you guys and also the audiences. Very very therapeutic. >> Uh I highly recommend watching uh the animated 2D version. I think it released in 1950 something. >> Uh animated 2D version of Alice in Wonderland. >> Okay. >> And watch it again.
(2:25:27) There's a lens of watching it as a child and you just think it's a cool interesting >> kind of funky story. when you see it as an adult, it's actually a narrative on psychology and how she goes inside her own mind >> and just watching that film, the way it's done, the way the dialogues are written, it forces you to look with it.
(2:25:44) >> So, great ending note. >> Thank you. Thank you to you guys. Thank you. All three of youall are healers and I think that subliminally you'll also spread a lot of healing through this conversation. So, thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, entire team. Heat. Heat.
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