Diagnosed Psychopath Reveals Exactly How He Picks And Manipulates Women...

Diagnosed Psychopath Reveals Exactly How He Picks And Manipulates Women...

Author Name:The Shadow Sessions Podcast

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@TheShadowSessionsPodcast

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVLPNJoY_Xo





Title: Diagnosed Psychopath Reveals Exactly How He Picks And Manipulates Women...

Author Name: The Shadow Sessions Podcast

Description: Find out which pattern is quietly running your life: https://deprogramher.com/pages/quiz-p...

Link to the book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062507540/...

"I just don’t feel any guilt or remorse for him. I didn’t, and I don’t. It’s just not there.”
Lewis was 24 when he punched a man so hard he thought he had killed him. He covered the man’s head with his coat, waited for the police, and later learned he had survived.
What never came was the guilt.

Lewis was diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder at 18. In this episode, he sits down with Hiba to explain what psychopathy actually feels like from the inside: the absence of guilt and remorse, what love means when you don’t experience it as a felt emotion, why he sees relationships as transactional, and how he has learned to consciously behave in ways that make the people around him feel loved.
But Lewis also explains something more unsettling: how someone like him can listen closely enough to identify another person’s needs, fears and desires — and potentially become exactly what that person is missing.

“We will understand it better than you understand it yourself.”
This episode isn’t about turning psychopathy into the stereotype of the violent, calculating villain. It’s about what happens when someone can understand your emotions without experiencing them the same way and the difference between having psychopathic traits and choosing what you do with them.

00:00 Inside the mind of a psychopath
02:27 Lewis joins The Shadow Sessions
02:30 What is a psychopath?
04:08 How Lewis was diagnosed
08:08 The prison sentence that changed his life
10:00 Nature vs. nurture: are psychopaths born or made?
11:06 What love and significance feel like to Lewis
14:38 Relationships as transactional
18:40 What it’s like not to feel love
19:52 The emptiness and boredom Lewis experiences
21:44 Psychopathy as a spectrum
23:38 “It almost feels like my destiny is to be bad”
24:25 What intimacy feels like to Lewis
27:26 Consciously learning how to make someone feel loved
28:28 Masking in everyday life
30:48 Can women spot a psychopath?
31:35 “You’re just not going to know”
34:07 How a psychopath listens and reads people
34:28 “We will understand it better than you understand it yourself”
35:37 Manipulation, morality and where the boundary is
36:23 How Lewis builds a moral compass
40:06 Masking and performing emotions
42:36 How Lewis gets people to trust him
46:03 Manipulation, gaslighting and love bombing
47:12 “Love me, love me, love me”
49:15 Choosing someone who won’t recognize the behavior
52:04 Lewis realizing he had been love bombing
54:03 Prison, rehabilitation and therapy
55:13 What triggers Lewis today
57:37 His need to feel significant
59:18 Why Lewis speaks publicly about his diagnosis
1:00:49 Quickfire questions
1:03:30 “Someone still trying to figure out himself”

IN THIS EPISODE
Psychopathy · Antisocial Personality Disorder · Guilt & Remorse · Love · Relationships · Manipulation · Love Bombing · Masking · Morality · Trauma · Nature vs. Nurture · Rehabilitation

FOLLOW LEWIS
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lewisraymon...

FOLLOW THE SHADOW SESSIONS
Instagram:   / theshadowsessionspodcast  
YouTube:    / @theshadowsessionspodcast  
TikTok:   / theshadowsessionspodcast  

FOLLOW HIBA
Instagram:   / hibabalfaqih  

CONTENT NOTE
This episode includes discussions of violence, childhood trauma, sexual abuse, suicide, addiction and manipulation.

Transcript:
(00:00) Today I have a psychopath sitting in front of me. >> I don't feel love, happiness, satisfaction, [music] fulfillment, an emptiness. It's a flatness, a boredom. >> And I'm going to ask him exactly [music] how he would manipulate you, how he'd choose you. >> A normal psychopath or sociopath or narcissist.
(00:18) They're going to benefit and you're not going to benefit. >> How he'd get you to trust him, how he'd figure out what you need, and [music] how he'd use it against you. >> Well, I went to prison for the third time at 24 and I punched a gun in a taxi. I actually thought I'd killed him, so I got my coat off and I put it over [music] his head.
(00:33) But I just don't feel any guilt or remorse for him and I didn't and I don't and it's just not there. >> Do you know why Lewis has publicly spoken [music] about being diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder? He's also spoken about severe childhood trauma, addiction, and [music] the life he built afterwards. >> I wasn't emotionally nurtured.
(00:51) There was no I love you. There's no hugs. There was no emotional support. There was trauma from brief sexual abuse [music] to trying to commit suicide. However, not every psychopath is intentionally manipulating you. >> Inherently, I think my character is bad. I fight against it. Sometimes it feels more comfortable to be bad, but it almost feels like my destiny is to be bad.
(01:09) >> Lewis is a psychopath that will help you understand how manipulation [music] actually works while it's happening. What is a psychopath? >> A psychopath [music] who would >> not the red flags you recognize 6 months later, the first conversation, the charm, the attention, the tiny tests you don't know are tests.
(01:26) I just can't understand how anyone else might think or feel. And and people say, "Well, how can't you feel that? Surely you must feel that." And it's like, "Well, that's like asking a blind person to explain [music] what the sun looks like." >> So, for the next hour, I'm going to ask Lewis to take us inside that process.
(01:39) >> I'm going to love bomb this person so they think that I'm this perfect person, which I'm not. And then I'm going to pull the rug from underneath their feet, and I'm going to leave them with nothing. >> Where did you learn the love bombing from? Um, before we start, let me ask you something directly.
(02:01) If this show has ever made you feel less alone, or if you've ever sat here longer than you meant to because someone finally said the quiet part out loud, then please make sure to subscribe. It's completely free and it's the one thing that helps us to keep these conversations coming. Now, let's start with today's episode. >> Lewis, welcome to the shadow sessions.
(02:27) >> Thank you. >> I'm going to start off by asking you a question I think everybody needs the answer to is what is a psychopath? >> Well, this is something that almost nobody understands unless you probably are a psychopath. Even the experts I've seen online have their own personal opinion of it, but they're still even getting influenced by the sensationalism of what they believe a psychopath to be.
(02:48) People will think of this serial killer or this evil uh cold, shallow, remorseless person, which >> what we see on TV, you know. Yeah. >> Which of course there is an aspect of that. uh myself personally I was diagnosed with an antisocial personality disorder which is a set of personality characteristics that are inherently quite bad or definitely antisocial and it comes with a lack of feeling low affect so lack of empathy guilt remorse uh shame fear >> and of course if you have that lack of emotional response then you're more
(03:18) likely to do things that are bad for yourself and others >> um and that's when the behavior takes part and that's when the the symptomatic display of those issues are more prevalent and uh people would say, "Oh, that's a psychopath because they've done that." Um, however, the ones that are more aware of their behavior [sighs] >> um and they're trying to control that and manage that on the outward, they wouldn't be displaying any symptoms.
(03:43) You know, they would be operating differently and they're functioning differently and they are very different. Uh, but you wouldn't know it. Uh, and they lead a, you know, a big part of society. um whether it's politicians or surgeons or military personnel, we kind of need these more logical strategic thinkers um in the dynamic of how we function.
(04:05) Um they don't inherently make bad decisions a lot of the time. >> How were you diagnosed? >> I was displaying these antisocial symptoms from a young age like from prior >> what are those symptoms? So our viewers >> behavioral uh like getting in trouble in school and then get in trouble with the police, you know. Um I was very naughty and I was arrested.
(04:23) I had an an asbo which is antisocial behavior order where I was banned from the like local area. I couldn't be with more than two people. Had a curfew and this was at the age of about 13 years old. >> Because you were fighting or >> No, I was just causing lots of crime, lighting fires, smashing windows, stealing things, shouting, swearing, you know, just being mischievous.
(04:40) >> Mischievous. Okay. >> But um as that progressed, I got expelled from school. I was arrested. I went into Young Offenders Institution and then I become violent. drink and drugs paid a factor. And I was in and out of the probation and the court and the system. >> Yeah. >> And one of these things that I had to go to was a pre-sentence report, which is where you go to probation.
(05:03) They analyze your background circumstances and then they they prepare a report to give to the judge for your sentencing. So, it's a bit more of an informed decision on the day. I went to this appointment and I just didn't really understand the concept of okay, I need to put on a good perception of myself because at this point I was very dysfunctional and I just didn't care about anything including myself.
(05:19) And they said because I was in uh court this time for really violent crimes. I'd already been to prison a few times >> and I was 18 years old and I was uh looking at 8 years in prison for grievous bodily harm >> on on multiple people actually. It wasn't just one. Um and they said, "Do you not care that you go in prison?" I said, "No, cuz I didn't.
(05:36) And do you not care that you've hurt other people?" I said, "No." Um, and most people would act on their best behavior on this appointment, but I just didn't. And then she sent me for a psychiatric assessment. And I thought that was another part of this probation assessment, but it wasn't. It was because they' seen something different in me.
(05:51) And then in that um assessment, it came back with this antisocial personality disorder. But of course, at the time, I didn't really care. I just thought, okay, everyone probably gets diagnosed with that. I did Google it and I did see all this psychopath popping up and all sorts of things. Um, but I thought, you know, just another thing that goes along with the system and I kind of discredited it as this guy thinking I was this not a goody two shoes like him and I must just be mental to be able to commit the kinds of crimes that I was, but I was in full control.
(06:11) It was actually not until I was much older and I actually turned my life around, which is of course another topic, where I realized although my behavior had changed and I wasn't violent, I wasn't getting arrested, I wasn't committing these crimes and doing the negative destructive behavior that I was doing that I still felt different and I still noticed that I was inherently different.
(06:31) And that's when I looked back at the diagnosis and realized that I still on this list. Um, and yeah, antisocial personality disorder is the clinical diagnosis. Uh and then psychopath is more of a sort of label that we put on a cluster of those uh conditions. >> Yeah. So till that age, so 18, you just got diagnosed.
(06:49) You're there's no like recovery plan. They didn't tell you, okay, we we need to get you to a psych word or we need to start looking at the behavior. You were actually sent to jail after that. >> Yeah. Well, actually not for that time, interestingly. I mean, back then um or still now, I'm not sure, but I know that my scenario was it wasn't that they diagnosed you in order to help you.
(07:07) It was just a level of understanding. And I think most people in the prison system probably have some form of diagnosis of something, especially a personality disorder, maybe not an antisocial one, but there's many types of personality disorder. And I think a lot of people uh probably have some sort form of condition.
(07:21) >> And it was just something that got marked down and that was it. I managed to cuz I went on trial. Um I actually pleaded guilty, but my friend uh that I attacked some a group of people with, he pleaded not guilty. So we went on trial for 2 years. And because we managed to stay out of trouble and we and I was always good at kind of putting a suit on, >> saying the right things, looking like I was, which I kind of was in a way, but I I didn't get sort of put in the same category as most other criminals because
(07:48) I looked well. I could smile. I could say I'm sorry. I could look presentable. And I kind of looked like a kid that had gone down the wrong path. And I it was always quite lenient. I was it was always quite lenient on me. I was able to get a suspended sentence and I had like tag and community service and all these things, but I did end up going back to prison though.
(08:05) >> Okay. What was your pivotal moment to saying, you know what, I need to change this behavior. M well I went to prison for the third time at 24 and I punched a gun at taxi coup and um I actually thought I'd killed him because I punched him uh very hard and his face his head hit the ground before his legs did and it just there was a thud >> um that just sounded like death as morbid as that sounds.
(08:32) It was just this >> deep thud in the night and then I looked over and he just was not moving. His face was planted into the concrete and then this slow dark trickle of blood came out of his head. Um, and I just thought he's dead. So, I looked at the a corner and uh I was at a train station and I saw a camera.
(08:48) So, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to go to prison for that." So, I got my coat off and I put it over his head. That's how much I thought he was dead. And um they put in the back of the prison uh police car cuz I waited for them to arrive cuz I knew there's no getting away from this. Cameras there. And then the ambulance came and everyone was all rushed around him.
(09:05) And then they took me to the police station. They wouldn't tell me until the next day if he'd have died or not. And luckily he didn't. but he was in a coma in the end for 3 days and he had a brain hemorrhage and they said I would have got 3 years but because I pleaded guilty at the scene they gave me half off. So again I was always had this lenency and know a lot of people would expect me to think that that was the turnaround moment.
(09:23) >> Um >> you know the thing that I always find it difficult not difficult to admit but I I'm reluctant to admit this part is because a lot of the work that I do now is trying to break the stigma of this condition but at the same time there's things that I say that just cannot be seen in a positive light.
(09:37) you know, it's just like inherently bad and people just will not like me because of it. But I just don't feel any guilt or remorse for him and I didn't and I don't and it's just not there. I've tried I've done all sorts of therapy and all sorts of different shamanic escapades in the jungle in Bali and you know for years and years and there's not even a flicker available for me.
(09:56) Um you know cuz it's part of this condition. >> There's the age-old debate in nature or nurture. Is someone born a psychopath? Is someone is is a sociopath or a psychopath created? And I think it's a bit of both. I think I had a pre predisposition for it. I think my dad and my mom are very similar to me actually, which shows that there probably is this predisposition to it.
(10:14) But it doesn't necessarily reach fruition on its own if the environmental circumstances, you know, exaggerate it throughout your adolescence. So I think I wasn't emotionally nurtured. There was no I love you, there's no hugs, there was no emotional support, there was trauma. And my environment only displayed anger.
(10:31) And I think if you have a predisposition to it and then you're exposed to that kind of environment, I think it can develop. I think if id had a really nurturing, loving upbringing, I think things would have been different. But maybe I would have always been this way I am. I'm not sure. >> And there's a lot of psychopaths who still come from uh families that are nurturing and loving and then they you're just different, you know, and that's where the whole uh nature comes in, right? Like you're born that way.
(10:55) um some of the neurons are just not firing in the right way and the right chemicals are not available in your brain and so forth. >> So that's interesting. So what was the moment where you're like I have to change? >> It was a selfish selfish thing really. It was um I'm keeping end up in prison. I'm 24 years old blaming everything and everyone around me um not taking any responsibility for myself.
(11:15) And I rang up my friend when I was in prison. This is a whole another conversation, but because I don't feel love, happiness, satisfaction, fulfillment, I don't feel any of those. I only feel anything that's kind of stimulatory that feeds my ego. Significance is probably the closest thing I could sort of associate to love.
(11:33) If I feel significant by somebody, then that's love to me. It's not love to other people, but it is to me. And when I was younger, I didn't really feel loved. I don't know whether or not I wasn't giving it, I wasn't getting it, or I just wasn't able to receive or feel it. >> Who knows? Um, but I didn't and I went on this sort of quest to feel and to feel significant in various different things.
(11:54) Um, but one of them was the violence. You know, I did get a Yeah, it sounds bad, but I did get a bit of a thrill from it. And I also love the notoriety and the way that people would speak about me, even if it was bad. You know, I didn't mind as long as people were talking about me and I felt known, seen, significant, it was enough cuz I didn't have anything else.
(12:09) >> If I had some sort of positive element of significance, maybe I would have latched on to that. But I didn't. That's all I knew. So when I called up my friend, he said, you know, I wanted to say what this what are people saying about me? I've gone to prison for like for beating someone up.
(12:21) And in my warped view of the world, that was a good thing. >> Yes. >> Which is just insane to think about it now. Now I'm more consciously aware. And I wanted to see what people were saying about me. And he said I was on the front page of the paper. And I was like, okay, cool. What does it say? You know, borish and violent, they said.
(12:34) Um, thug as well on another one. >> And cuz I'd racked up 19 convictions by this point at 24 years old. So this isn't just a couple of, you know, drunken things. This was like constant throughout my life. He also said, "Your friend has posted a picture of you >> and it was a friend that taken cuz I used to take pictures outside the courthouse, you know, and or when I just got released from jail, you know, I literally proud of it cuz to my friends their values, you know, were also the same.
(12:59) " So, >> so you were like the big man like look at him, he did that, right? >> And um I had taken a picture outside the courtroom, but my friend had found one of me outside the exact same courtroom seven years before and he posted it on Facebook and he said nothing changes. And it's quite kind of like a throwaway post from him >> almost like to me to to be funny, you know, but to me it kind of did hit home because I thought because other people had said things like that before, but I just dismissed it because it came from
(13:23) my friend. >> I kind of thought, well, he's actually right. 7 years has passed and nothing has changed. And it wasn't like, oh, I need to get my act together, but it was just like, well, I'm going to end up keep on going back to prison >> and this is not kind of I think there's more to me than that.
(13:37) And then I went back to my prison cell and I just looked at myself in the mirror which is like this scratched off piece of metal. I could barely see myself but I just kind of got this realization that I was the problem [clears throat] >> from that moment. And it was quite exciting and I got quite um obsessed with the idea of changing myself.
(13:55) I've got a very addictive personality. So >> drink, drugs, gambling, sex violence, everything that gives me a feeling I will abuse. You know, luckily I I latched on to the idea of changing myself would be my next thing. And [clears throat] uh but I I got quite sort of theatrical with it in my mind. I think I was thinking about I'll change my name. I'll move abroad.
(14:12) You know, I'll get with some woman that has some rich family and I'll just completely invent like this different version of myself, which I I had good intentions behind it, but I just my brain thinks of extremes and it wasn't controllable back then. side but I I've latched with that excitement idea of starting a fresh and and yeah that's a whole big sort of journey of rehabilitation after that but I've never looked back since you know 12 years on >> the 24 year old version of you pre-change what was your description of
(14:42) love and relationships how did relationships look like for you >> quick pause because this episode might have actually activated something when we talk about manipulation the conversation usually focus on the person doing it, what they did, how they operated, what to watch for. But here's the question that actually changes things.
(15:04) What was already in place that made it work? Not a flaw, not a failure, a pattern, the trained habit of reading a room and adjusting yourself, of putting someone else's comfort above your own signal, of calling it kindness when it's actually fear. that got installed somewhere long before this person arrived. There's a 2-minute quiz that names the pattern underneath it.
(15:28) Go to deprogramher.com/quiz. Again, deprogramhur.com/quiz or just click the link in the description. Now, back to the episode. The 24year-old version of you pre-changed. What was your description of love and relationships? How did relationships look like for you? Well, it wasn't something I was necessarily consciously aware of back then.
(15:51) It's only from a lot of work and a lot of comparison with other people that I've been able to see what's normal, what's different about me, how I operate because we only have our own map of the world and we're only kind of just going through it and trying to make sense of it. I don't think we ever fully figure it out.
(16:05) But something I've realized about me, which is again not something I really like to admit so much, but >> it's just the truth. I see relationships as very transactional and I can make sure that I'm doing good in those relationships. So, I'm not just taking, but it's more of a conscious decision. Like I really find it difficult to see a relationship that doesn't have any benefit to it. Um has to have value.
(16:22) And I know most people would see the value in just a connection, just a warmth, just a whatever. I don't know how I can really tell you. But for me, because I don't feel that I don't really see the value in just having a friendship for a friendship's sake. >> Tell me more. What does that mean? Like I don't value I don't see a relationship or a friendship just for a friendship's sake.
(16:41) So what is the value for you there? >> Well, it depends on what stage in my life. Um >> back then. Let's look at back then and we'll go to the transformation. My friends were all people that I would um commit crimes with, sell drugs with. Nowadays, they're people that I would do business with. My friends are my business partners >> only. >> Mhm.
(16:57) [clears throat] >> I've done business with my handful of friends, you know. >> Um and back then, I guess the relationships were given me something in a in a in a sort of less tangible way. But there's this kind of codependency where you sort of seek uh parts of yourself in other people. And I think that I would always pick people that were very opposite to me that kind of balanced me out.
(17:18) So I'd pick the very homely, very loving, very supportive, nurturing women because it kind of must have gave me a part of myself that I didn't know how to give myself. But I've always just been quite selective in terms of the so-called uh circles of relationships I give myself and put myself around. >> Did you ever feel like the relationships back then were enough for you? Like they filled up cuz you couldn't you said you can't feel love.
(17:42) So, >> what did you feel in those relationships? >> Well, this is an interesting one because I always I never thought when I was younger that I didn't know what love was. Uh, it's only when I kind of have gone through life more and I've seen other people's perspectives I think, oh, actually, I don't have that.
(17:57) But I have love, but it's just not a felt sense. >> It's a thought. >> It's a thought. >> Yeah. It's a it's I think love. And I know people just can't get their head around that. The difficulty with having like an antisocial personality disorder is I just can't understand how anyone else might think or feel.
(18:12) You know, I can only guess. >> And and and people say, "Well, how can't you feel that? Surely you must feel that." And it's like, "Well, that's like asking a blind person to explain what the sun looks like, you know. They could tell you it's probably yellow, but it's obviously more than that, you know, or what the sky looks like, you know, but they can tell you how the birds sound, you know.
(18:27) " >> Yeah. And if people want to understand kind of how I see the world, it's it's them trying to imagine what how I see it and trying to imagine how a psychopath operates. Most people think, well, how could I even process what that would be like? Well, that's how I that's how I >> that's how you feel about normal people.
(18:42) >> Yeah. But the difference is I intellectually understand things. So love to me, >> for example, I have to see it. I have to I have to be able to like write it down almost in my mind and go, well, that person did this and that and that. They must love me. M like deductive reasoning. >> I don't know what that is.
(18:59) >> Deductive reasoning like because they did A and B and C that means D is true. >> Yeah. And it's not even a a conscious [clears throat] like thought. It's just something clicks in my brain where I say that person loves me and that allows me to then say well I must love them when I when they meet a criteria in my mind.
(19:16) So if someone said do you love them? I think I'd probably have to think well first of all I would say yes or no but then I would think how am I coming to that conclusion because it's almost subconscious. And then I would think about it and I'd say, "Well, I'd probably kill or die for that person." >> That would probably be the closest extreme version of if I would.
(19:32) And if I wouldn't, I think, well, probably I don't then. >> But there's no feeling. >> It's like black and white in your brain. >> Yeah. And there's no there's no feeling to it. Like >> there's no feeling to it. >> How does that affect you as a human being knowing like you can't feel love? >> Yeah.
(19:47) Yeah, I mean this is something I've not really spoke about on podcast and I I wish I would more because it bring a lot of awareness to the fact that it's actually quite difficult. You know, I don't want to say it's as difficult. Um I like parts of it. That's so, you know, I'll start with saying what I like about it. I like the fact that I'm not emotionally influenced by a lot of day-to-day scenarios.
(20:07) Like I, you know, I'm in this industry now. I see people that have high emotions and the empaths and I think I would not like a bit of that. You know, you're you're having meltdowns. you're, you know, burning out, you're, you know, you're stressed, you're overwhelmed, you know, you got self-doubt, you know, you're scared of everything.
(20:22) I just don't like the idea of that. So that's having that out the way is advantageous. I can achieve things quite easily because I just have a set of list of things to do and I just do them and I don't see any there's no emotional barriers holding me back. >> So I like that. >> Yeah. >> And my brain has to overcompensate strategically.
(20:36) So I feel like I am sharper intellectually and logically. I can visually see maps and things of how I do things when I explain that to other people and they don't have the map a lot a lot of the time. Anyway, you know, if you're blind, you'll hear better. And I think in that respect, it's allowed me to intellectually understand things.
(20:50) So, I like that part of it. Um, but there is just this uh there's a an emptiness. It's a flatness. It's not necessarily depression or I'm not sad. I'm just ex I just exist, you know? >> Nothing really makes me feel truly happy. It just makes me feel >> it's like if you if you achieve something or you win a game, you got a little Yeah, that was good.
(21:14) But it's not like a deep felt sense of fulfillment, you know, and it a boredom as well and just constantly striving like I have to achieve something next or I have to be busy in order to feel stimulated if I stop and then I feel flat. Um, and there also is the element of I I it's a contradiction because I see other people and they have these brilliant relationships or I overhear a conversation.
(21:39) I think that's just naturally flowing for them. There's no agenda, there's no outcome to it. They're just present in the conversation. I think I'd like to have that, but then if someone comes and talks to me, I just think go away. So, it's like this contradiction of I want the closeness, but yet I hate it at the same time.
(21:54) You know, someone can, you know, I want I want to be able to feel in that way, but yet I don't like it. I can be jealous of other people's relationships, but then inherently I don't want those types of relationships myself. So, this contradiction can be confusing. >> How does that contradiction sit within you? Like, how does it make you feel? I mean, what does it make you think? That's a better question.
(22:09) Well, my natural default is to move towards the things that I know work for me and you know are more in alignment with the way I operate. So I I have to make my life good. You know I have to travel. I have to experience things. I have to achieve things. You know I have to live a great life to be honest.
(22:22) Otherwise I don't think I would be able to function it. Um >> so I you know I do the things that fulfill me in my significant stimulatory successful egotistical grandio way. You know that works for me. But then it there's obviously this you know lingering thought of but I would like to have a bit of what they have you know and then I try and I can't really the biggest battle for me is you know psychopathy I believe is on a spectrum you know there's people that would just murder you and laugh about it and want to do it there's people that will cry
(22:54) over a piece of music you know >> there's this emp empathy and this psychopathy >> and I am in no illusion that I'm on that extreme end of the scale you I could say things that would shock you definitely to help me meet the criteria but I am not I don't want to be bad. I would part of me would kind of like to remove it but also part of me also likes it. So it's difficult.
(23:18) So there is this I get a flicker every now and again like I've felt a little something >> but it's almost you know every few months and it's just like oh and it's gone then it's so small >> and that's because you've worked on yourself right but if you haven't worked on yourself that flicker is more reoccurring.
(23:36) Well, the flicker is the the the feeling like I can feel a flicker of um >> of just human, you know, like because it's I I couldn't watch a film um and feel any kind of way about it or any of, you know, I could watch the most devastating story or the worst murder series or I just feel nothing, you know? is um but every now and again feel like a really emotional moment that randomly hits for some reason I'm just oh and there's and it's not even enough to acknowledge it's just weird there's something and it's not even it's for a second and it's gone I don't even know
(24:09) what it is but I think most people experience that throughout their whole day around things that don't even matter but for me it's like once every few months or whatever and I think oh so it's there and also I've done like uh psychedelics and I've experienced feeling through that so I know that my body has the capacity for it so you know sometimes I you know, could I fight harder to get this better range of emotion? Um, but that's quite uncomfortable because then I also come to the realization that I need to accept who I am because I I
(24:37) compare myself to other people and I just go, "No, >> that's just not me." And there's a part of me that really feels and this is a difficult thing to like villains and things and sometimes I just I do identify with the psychology of it and it's like inherently I think my character is bad >> you know but I'm I fight against it and you know sometimes it feels more comfortable to be bad.
(25:00) I'm not I don't I don't conduct that life but it almost feels like my destiny is to be bad. >> So imagine living with that you know. Do you feel any guilt or shame when it goes like I'm inherently bad and my nature is bad? Does it come with any thoughts of this is bad like judgment or is it shame? Like >> it's neither.
(25:17) It's just I know intellectually that I it's I don't want to be that person >> intellectually. Yeah. >> But I don't I don't feel guilt or shame at all. >> At all. >> No. >> Okay. I have a question cuz when you were saying that you think of love, all I could see is like my idea of like love is like end of the day cuddling with your partner uh on the couch watching TV and doing absolutely nothing.
(25:42) Just in that moment that embrace that feeling that to me is like >> that if you were put in that situation, >> what are you thinking and feeling in that moment like that small intimate moment of just being cuddled up with somebody? Are you feeling anything? What are your thoughts in that? >> Yeah.
(26:00) I mean, this is something that I think is really interesting because I think a lot of people will use the word, how does that make you feel? Yeah. >> Or they I felt like this, but actually they're describing a thought. I think it's less about thought than most people think. There's a feeling there, but there's a lot of thoughts there.
(26:14) Like, >> for example, if you buy a new car and you're getting in it, you're like, "This is my car. I feel good." >> Do you actually feel good or do you think that this is a cool car? You know, you're happy to be in it. You're happy to drive it. You're proud of it. But do you have a warm fuzzy feeling in your chest associated to an inanimate object? Probably not.
(26:30) >> And >> but that's a car. That's why I said partner. >> I know. But that's what I'm trying to explain that that experience you have. You don't feel a feeling, but yet it still gives you something. You still enjoy it. >> And you know, unfortunately, it doesn't sound right. But I think that's probably how I experience people.
(26:44) >> You know, I can still do the I have a partner, go home, and glad to see them, cuddle up with them. >> I just don't feel a warm fuzzy feeling in my chest or whatever it would feel like. I don't even have to explain that or describe it. Okay. How do your partners react to knowing you're not feeling anything? >> Yeah.
(27:00) >> Thinking it. >> Yeah. Well, it's only the partner I'm with at the moment that truly understands it. I mean, my my ex-wife um she kind of knew, but I don't think I fully learned to enough to fully communicate it. >> Yeah. >> But this the new partner that I've got has only known me as kind of fully sharing about everything and she's got enough content to deeply learn about me now.
(27:24) So she's just fully understanding of it. You know, it's just like any other condition. And do you know what? It's not just prevalent in psychopathy. Like low emotional affect is prevalent in many other things as well. Some people on the autism spectrum for example. And they lots of autistic people have great relationships and not not some of them find it difficult.
(27:41) But I just think that we're moving into this world now of neurodyiversity and people understanding and people communicating more than they ever have. And I think we're just all different, you know, and and actually I accept my partner for who she is, which is a massive empath. Then I told you we kind of did like, you know, ying and yang kind of thing.
(27:55) She's just emotional, very emotional. And I guess there's part of me that must crave that cuz it balances us out in that way. But yeah, I find it inconvenient that she's stressed and overwhelmed and panics and you know about everything and I put up with that. So she has to put up with me and that's that's okay. >> So it hasn't been there was no part of your life where your psych like your you being a psychopath has affected the relationship.
(28:20) You got to find someone that truly understands it and appreciates that dynamic because it is different. And um the thing is I'm not a dysfunctional psychopath. You know, I I'm fully aware of my behavior and how I could inherently turn that bad or destructive or toxic. And I've got to be very careful.
(28:37) But I've also really understood psychologically what what good is. It's not a natural reaction, but it's something I purposely do. So, I know the love languages and I know that I've got to be there and say nice things and you [clears throat] know and I do all and give and make sure that the love is being received but it might not just be it might it's mimicked almost it's uh >> it's created.
(28:56) >> It's called masking for neurody divergence, right? So, it's like it's also masking for you. You have to kind of put on a mask >> with my partner at the moment. No, I don't mask. But I obviously just consciously need to say, well, if I want to make you feel loved and I'm not going to be able to radiate it to you, however that feels or looks like because you're not going to get it, and I'm going to look cold a lot of the time, and I'm going to say blunt things, and you know, so I have to make up for that by making
(29:16) her feel as comfortable and as loved as she could. But I think everybody everyone should do that. Most people only display like one love language, but they don't meet their partner where they're at. So it's good for people that even that have emotions to communicate that love in a way that can be received. >> Yeah.
(29:29) >> I just have to be more consciously aware of it. Um, but dayto-day, I mask massively. Like my partner sees a version of me no one else sees because I'm very >> you're safe there. >> Yeah. And I can just drop I can take the mask off and it's not like a horrible person all around but it's just like it's just it's just um there's less facial expression there.
(29:45) I I look more moody all the time. Um I'm speaking with a load of uh character in my voice. >> Yeah. >> And um Yeah. And I Yeah. I can just be me. >> Yeah. Before we sat down, we spoke uh about how you're connected to multiple psychopaths around the world and talk to me a little bit about that. like >> yeah it's so it's so fascinating because I I didn't decide I wanted to be a public psychopath you know it was a diagnosis that I've had for a long time uh and it was when I did this documentary with Netflix that the psychopath was the most interesting
(30:15) thing for people and I think it's just due to a rise of neurodiversity and just people are just understanding people's sort of genetic or psychological makeup now yeah since then I've I don't know if it's because the the algorithms feeding it to me or the reticular activation is firing where you become more consciously aware of it because you know you're a part of it but yeah there have some more sort of publicly sort of uh known psychopaths because before it was if you if you're a serial killer then you're a
(30:39) known psychopath but there wasn't people that you know successful and stuff like that that sort of come out of the woodwork >> but yeah I see them online and I connect and I get to know different people and I've also sort of learned about the people that don't sort of glamorize it because obviously with podcast I try not to do it but for the podcast I could easily >> feed into the sensationalized narrative of psychopathy and it is the things that people want to listen to because it's interesting. But I really try and fight
(31:05) against that. I don't want people to see this sort of scary remorseless although that's a part of it, but this remorseless person is going out there and doing harm because it it's only it's only a proportion of those that are choosing to do harm. >> Um even though it might feel more natural to them to do it now, they're still making a choice to do that.
(31:22) [snorts] So I try not to feed into like the stories about how bad I am and how horrible I could be to someone uh and just sort of share a bit of truth on it. But yeah, it's it's becoming a good way to get views. >> Mhm. >> So there are lots more people doing it. >> Mhm. And >> not lots actually. There's a handful.
(31:38) >> There's a handful of people doing it. Like but wouldn't you look at that perspective as also preventative? If I know how a psychopath uh thinks then I can avoid them. >> Yeah. And that's Yeah. That is a good benefit of it for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, when I started off this podcast, I you know, most of our viewers are women and they're a lot in coercive control manipulators, you know, terms like gaslighting and and um psychosis and all of that and and he's a psychopath and women use that all the time. We have a lot of these
(32:05) documentaries that are coming out. So, like the the one about like um Micah who's like the pastor's wife, etc. You see, so you saw different kinds of psychosis and that as well and and course of control and manipulation. and we have a lot of victims on this show. From your perspective, and it doesn't have to be your own uh way of doing things, but what you know about psychopaths, what can women look at and say, "Oh, okay.
(32:31) These are behaviors that I need to pay attention to because this man could be a psychopath." >> Quick pause. Here's something no one admits. It's easier to sit with a stranger's darkest secret than your own. You do it every week on this show. someone else's pattern, someone else's shadow safe because it's not yours. There's a book that turns that light around.
(32:57) Owning your own shadow by Robert A. Johnson. The parts of you you buried so well you forgot they're still steering. You can listen to it on Audible with the link in the description. You're good at reading other people. Now try the one you skip. Now back to the episode. What can women look at and say, "Oh, okay. These are behaviors that I need to pay attention to because this man could be a psychopath.
(33:22) " >> I mean, it is a difficult question because, you know, quote unquote, if they're a good psychopath, you just won't know. >> You're just not going to know. Uh they're too good [laughter] cuz they're so good they don't even know they're doing it. You know, like that's something I talk about.
(33:38) I was never this calculating psychopath that has this criteria if I do this, that, and the other. But I could manipulate and I could charm and I could get the things I wanted. I was very dysfunctional though, so it wasn't as obvious because I was, you know, manipulating people to sell drugs for me and what have you.
(33:49) Um, but I still do it now and but I try and use it for good now. You know, I try and turn manipulation into persuasion. I try to turn grandiosity into being a charismatic leader. And you know, I have been able to build, you know, successful business. And that's, you know, people could see that as skill >> or they could see it as potentially manipulation.
(34:09) You know, marketing I believe is manipulation. is understanding people's wants, needs, pain points, desires, fears, objections, and being able to speak to that in a, you know, you know, coherent way to be able to get an outcome. So, I can do it for sure. In terms of how you could spot it, I think you only usually spot it if uh someone's not doing it very well [laughter] because and it also doesn't always have to be um exploitative.
(34:34) You know, a psychopath can be dysfunctional in a sense where, you know, they're they're they're on self-destruct mode and they could say, "I want to go down and I'm going to take you down with me." And then that's the most toxic relationship where they're in self-destruct and they're also bringing someone to their level.
(34:51) A normal psychopath or sociopath or narcissist is someone that is going to be more um obvious in their control because they're going to benefit and you're not going to benefit. And that becomes more obvious because they're benefiting from everything. and you kept, you know, the the other person keeps getting, you know, um, hurt because of it, [clears throat] >> you're going to over time realize that you're being hurt.
(35:11) A more constructive psychopath is someone that says, "I'm going to benefit. You're going to benefit." And then you're never going to really know. >> Oh, you called it a constructive psychopath. Tell me more. I like that term. >> Another one I coined is um, transmuted psychopathy. You know, where you can transmute negative attributes into positive strengths and they don't always have to be negative.
(35:29) You know, I talk about this so much because this is the biggest thing. Like I am like I said earlier there's a contradiction because I am grateful for a lot of these skills because if you look at any successful business person a lot of them display quite psychopathic behaviors you know they can take risks they can be bold they can be um strategic they can be have confidence manipulative but persuasion you know they you know they can be you know used for good.
(35:52) Um but in terms of like a relationship if you're if you're a good psychopath you know a good psychopath [laughter] but you will listen and you were truly deeply intellectualize and understand you know because we don't have the emotion we have to like I said we have to compensate and our brain is just looking for all the clues and listening deeply and internally to what you say and is has taken bits of information from everything that you say even if it doesn't seem like much.
(36:15) And the thing is, we will understand it better than you understand it yourself. Because most people don't know what their deep desires are, or their traumas are. They're just acting on autopilot. So, someone might tell you a story and I might say, "Okay, that's because you you're trying to gain control because you probably lost something in the past.
(36:30) " I might ask a question to find out what you lost. And now I know and and then all I need to do is, you know, provide the remedy and you're going to be dependent on me, you know? So, and that's just to me, this is like something that I could just pick up in a in a conversation. Whether or not I'll do that or not is is another another question.
(36:45) >> Yeah. Wow. So you actually like mapped it out right now. So you said first thing was you're going to identify the person's need >> and then you're going to ask curious questions to find out deep the deeper need >> and then you're going to give them the remedy. >> Yeah. And it's pretty obvious. I mean most people do it on a day-to-day basis and they don't they're not aware they're doing it.
(37:07) Um, like all trauma and all coaching, it comes from somewhere, you know, and you only have to ask two questions and you stem it far back and it doesn't necessarily create an epiphany for them because they're not seeking it or they're dismissing it or they're trying to um avoid it. But if someone who's deeply listening to to gain information, they will pick up on it. But absolutely. Yeah.
(37:25) I mean, >> what makes you say, you know what, I'm not going to do that. Like I have just gained this piece of information and I'm not going to do that. It has to be more of a conscious choice and and whether or not I fully don't do it, I don't know. >> I I I would like to say I don't do it in a way that's um exploitative of other people.
(37:44) It's difficult cuz I don't know where the boundary is of morality. I don't know [gasps] >> how cuz I mean we teach like in sales you're taught persuasion, how to build rapport, all these things like inherently pretty bad things, you know, how to break objections, how to you know what's ethical and what's okay and what's not. I don't know.
(38:03) Um, but yeah, I probably do exploit people's emotions and feelings and desires. I just don't know what part of that is acceptable or not. >> Do you get your moral compass from like what society or culture or people around you are or in your mind you're always making that decision fresh for yourself? >> Yeah.
(38:22) I just have to intellectually sort of go off what other people are doing and try and make an assumption cuz I think most people would get a physical reaction when they're doing something wrong or when they're violating somebody else. >> Yeah. It's in your heart. >> And I just don't get that, you know? So, I don't really have an indication of when something is crossing a boundary or not.
(38:38) >> Okay. That's big. >> And so, when somebody tells you, "Hey, Louis, you're crossing my boundary." What is the initial reaction for you? >> I've never had anyone say that to me. [laughter] >> No one's ever said to you, "You cross a boundary." >> Yeah. They didn't know I have. >> Well, they probably not aware that you've even crossed the boundary >> because the thing is if you do it in a a respectful way, you can get what I need and you can fulfill you can give them the remedy.
(39:00) >> They're dependent on you but they got the remedy, >> you know. So, I don't know again when >> you could look at that as you're manipulating someone's needs and desires and wants and fulfilling missing parts of them. Uh you could also see it as you're completing a person. You know when does this romantic ideology we have of the you know the prince and the princess they usually come and save the day and provide everything they want and make them feel complete right you hear that they make them feel complete and
(39:23) that missing part of themselves something was missing until I met you you look at that in romance and you think well that's a brilliant thing but you could also see that as a way of becoming codependent >> I think it's the intention at the end right am I am I doing that because I want a healthy relationship or I'm I'm building a healthy relationship I'm figuring this out or I'm trying to get something out of But I think intention plays a part of where we go in this conversation.
(39:46) >> Absolutely. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of people that that have psychopathy that are unaware and don't want to change and they're just going out to they they say they're like vultures that are there to drain somebody, drain a victim, drain a source. >> We we've seen that.
(40:01) I've seen that a lot on social media lately that psychopaths go like, "If I put my eyes on you, or psychopaths actually, they're like, "If I decided to destroy you, I'm not going to let you go until I destroy you." And that becomes a choice. >> Exactly. And that's that's not a psychopath. That is somebody who has psychopathic traits that has the ability and >> to do that that is choosing to be bad.
(40:21) You know, there's it's 1% of the population and that are psychopaths >> and up to and if you're talking about sociopathy 5%. And these are the ones that are diagnosed and are that are aware they have it. You know, I speak to people the people comment on my content all the time and they're like, I've never identified with so much in my life.
(40:38) Didn't even know that I was different until I heard that. It's more prevalent than you think. these people would have the condition, but it doesn't mean to say they're going out and committing harm from it. These but there's also people that commit harm in the same way that still feel a lot. They do feel a lot, but they choose to push past it and just hurt people anyway.
(40:51) >> Yeah. >> Um there's a big mor morality conversation about this because there are a lot of people that don't choose to do negative behavior, don't harm people, learn to control some of the impulses, um that make a conscious decision to be good. Yes. >> And to help other people. Um, that's why you see psychopaths that are in the the high-skilled jobs such as the surgeons so they can operate under pressure or the military or the politicians that could go to war.
(41:18) It's obviously difficult to do that if you're emotionally burdened all the time. Uh, but they're choosing to use it for a greater good and maybe self- serving as well. But but then there's also people on the other end of the spectrum that might feel [clears throat] deeply, might be very empathetic, but might choose to not do any good in the world, might choose not to help people.
(41:33) So the morality, the question around morality isn't necessarily who feels the deepest. It should be Who's choosing to do the most good? >> Who's choosing? Yeah. >> Because you can feel deeply and be an empathetic person and a kind soul and cry when someone has trauma or whatever, but does that actually mean to say you're a good person? Because you might turn the other way when someone needs help.
(41:52) >> Correct. That's true. >> There's um this whole thing about like psychopaths masking and being very good at showing emotions or pretending to show emotions. Have you ever experienced that where you like can pretend to cry or pretend to feel emotion? >> It's just acting, you know, if you do things your whole life, you know, it's not difficult to do.
(42:14) It's uh you see how it should be and you just do it roughly. It's probably not perfect. But there's also an element of truth to it because again, not everything is created from a physical uh sensor, you know, physical visceral, that's what they call it, um a visceral feeling as opposed to a cognitive feeling cuz you can you can still I can still experience empathy.
(42:32) It's in my brain. So I can say, I know that's bad. I know that's sad. I want to do something about it. I want to help that person, but I just don't feel anything associated to it. So sometimes I can I can be mentally if someone died, for example, I don't know if I would feel anything, but I would definitely be mentally distressed.
(42:48) Like, oh my god, that what do you mean? You know, that can still happen. M >> you know my face still you know people say they have no oh if you spot a psychopath if they don't have wrinkles on the head it's like [sighs and gasps] >> that's just not true because a we're going to make the wrinkles by doing the faces anyway but also just because we haven't got an emotional response doesn't mean we don't have any response at all >> um so I can be mentally distressed by something I can be hyped and you know excited about something but it's just
(43:16) some of the underlying emotions that don't necessarily create the reaction >> because hype is sort of an emotion. So if we were to say like what are the two emotions you feel cuz you definitely feel anger >> or think anger you know and so there's also this excitement type these your primary emotions. >> Yeah.
(43:34) I wouldn't say it's excitement because that's a real like happiness like I can't wait for that. It's more of a stimulatory adren adrenal response. >> So you know when you have a coffee and you're like oh yeah that's just that's the closest thing I'll get but you're not going you know it's a different type. And the aggression, I've never really understood that, you know, but that's just something that people with psychopathy and antisocial personality disorders can express.
(43:55) Restless, irritability, disconnect, and aggression, >> okay, >> are the things we experience, which are all the negative ones. >> Mhm. >> And there is it's not like I can't say I've had no happiness. Like >> it's difficult because I don't think people understand their emotions even if they have them. If you say how you feel.
(44:11) >> Yeah, emotions are complicated. >> Yeah. I don't know really. I guess a bit this, bit of that, you know. So once you don't have them or you have very limited range, it's even more difficult to articulate. And you know, it's sometimes a bit of a combination of thought and feeling. >> If somebody met you and immediately they didn't trust you, how would you get them to trust you? >> I mean, I don't know whether this is a manipulation thing or if this is just something that I hold to my sort of code of ethics because I have a code of
(44:37) ethics. It just doesn't feel natural. It's something that I've decided upon is the right thing to do. Something that I've decided is authenticity. you know, if I can just be as truthful as as I possibly can, that I believe is the the only thing I've got going for me because I've done some really bad things and and on paper it could be perceived as someone just stay away from.
(44:57) But if I can be as truthful with people and just explain as negatively as it could be perceived, then that's something that people lean into and trust. >> Is that how your first date with your partner went? >> To be honest, yeah. I mean, there is definitely an element of people don't like to be deceived.
(45:13) People don't like to be lied to. People don't like to know where they're not where they don't stand. Something with me is like I'm very >> [clears throat] >> uh brutally honest. Um like I don't know if it could be perceived as like I've actually just gone for an autism assessment recently. I'm due to get that back, but I think I probably will be diagnosed with it.
(45:29) Not because I necessarily have it. I might do, but also because there's a big overlap of the condition between that and psychopathy. But um or antisocial personality disorder for the more clinical term or maybe have both. Who knows? And even it's like we're trying to find ways to sort of label people, but we're all obviously very diverse and very different.
(45:47) But I'm very blunt like um I don't know whether it's I just don't see the value in it. But if someone askked me a question, you're typically going to get answer, you know, and it doesn't work so well with women because they're trying to ask these comforting questions a lot of the time and I get a very direct answer. I remember what it was now.
(46:03) were on a boat from Thailand and there was recently a very similar boat in Bali that had capsized uh and and set a flame or something. A few people died and my girlfriend was really scared. She said, "What's the chance we're going to are we going to die on this?" And I said, "No." She said, "What's the chance?" And I said, "About 0.5%.
(46:17) " You know, but I was just it's just the way I am. It's just very logical. It's just like that's actually the chance you're going to die probably in my opinion. That's what I'm going to give you. Not know you'll be fine. Don't be silly. It's just like about 0.5%. So that's enough to get scared of. So the benefit to that though is because I have just almost decide not to have a filter and just like you can get what you get and I'm going to give you a black and white factual answer.
(46:36) Although it's unsettling to kind of hear the responses sometimes at least I think that women certain type of women around me would feel a little bit more in control knowing that they get what they get and there's you know they can they can trust [clears throat] it to a certain extent to me anyway cuz I'm quite different in a sense where there would be manipulation and lies and deceit in the background.
(46:56) Um, I don't do that with my partner now, you know. >> But you did in the past. >> I've never like there's these psychopaths online that talk about there's this one guy who said that he would he went into a nightclub and he told her that he had a terminal illness in order to sleep with her. Like I've never done anything like that and I never would. I never want to.
(47:11) >> Those for me are very extreme. But there are like the narcissistic psychopath that just want to feel good about themselves and they use everybody. And unfortunately a lot of women fall for that type. They have their [ __ ] together, you know, they're successful, they're smart, they exhibit all the signs of um a great partner, and then they chase you, chase you, chase you, get you in, and then once you're in, >> your whole world changes. Yeah.
(47:38) >> And we've seen so many victims on this show um of that kind of relationship and they're like, "Oh, they're narcissist." That's psychopathic a little bit because you're like on the hunt. And I've heard and you can confirm that that the the chase, the get in the love is one of the most important things for a psychopath.
(47:59) >> I mean, absolutely. Um, you know, going back to that example that, you know, this guy said he had to, you know, tell him he had a a terminal diagnosis. I mean, it's not necessary to say that, you know, there's other ways you could sleep with a woman than say that. If anything, that's probably not the most productive way to go about it.
(48:16) getting pity in order to sleep with someone wouldn't make me feel any particular way. I would I'd rather them want to, you know, but yeah, there are things that I do for sure. Um I wasn't really that aware of them. Um they come from a different place and this will be hard for people to understand. There are people that will deliberately gaslight, manipulate, love bomb, things like that.
(48:35) I think I've probably displayed those in the past and certainly uh still even some to this day, but I I do them unconsciously and they're coming from a different place. They're not. So, for example, uh love bombing. I do that and I've always done that. But it's not ever been I'm going to love bomb this person so they think that I'm this perfect person, which I'm not.
(48:56) And then I'm going to pull the rug from underneath their feet and I'm going to leave them with nothing. However, that has played out because um there is this chase. There is this like love me, love me, love me, want me, admire me, respect me. Uh and then when you get it, when I get it, there is an element of this box has been ticked and it has been complete.
(49:12) Therefore, it's like okay, what's next? It's not the element of it's not the I want to hurt you. It's >> I've done this >> and I and it also it all could be called avoidant >> and like you know detachment styles attachment styles there's anxious avoidant all those. So there could be an element of wanting to be close to somebody getting it and then actually not liking that closeness and pushing that away.
(49:35) So it's almost like you want to be love but then when the love is available then it's like well actually I don't want that now. And that's the contradiction that's difficult to understand. So I have even this partner recently uh that I've been with for the last couple of years um when I first met her I was like you know lovely dates. The second date was in Dubai you know it's just like you know then it was like you quit your job live with me we'll travel the world together but that's just how I am. It was just extreme.
(49:57) >> It's intense. It's extreme in the beginning and it's just like I'm just you're filling her cup up. >> Yeah. It was it did come to an end after that first initial burst. uh because I don't know I justified in all sorts of ways like I need to be on my own need to think about things and it was true to a certain extent but I wonder what element there was of me avoiding the closeness uh but it was never done intentionally to hurt her that's what people probably will not understand they would just think oh you know how can you treat a
(50:22) woman like that how can you lead her on but it was it's almost unconscious it's like I wanted it >> I think one [clears throat] of the most interesting things we've had in this conversation that you you tell me it's unconscious behavior because we're assuming it's conscious behavior right Oh, you're a psychopath and you know you're doing this on person and this man is intentionally harming me.
(50:41) Now you're like, "No, actually there's an element of this that I'm just operating as I am. I'm not even aware." And that's why when when you get the feedback like from a woman like she'll be like, you know, Louis, you're gaslighting me or you're love bombing me right now. Does that >> register anything in your brain or are you like, "Do I need to look at my behavior or are you like absolutely not? That's how I show love.
(51:03) " >> Yeah. I mean, sort of cliche of a a psychopath who would pick the victim is probably unconsciously in the same way where I would probably pick someone that wouldn't be aware of that. >> They would never know they wouldn't know what a gas line or love bomb was. You know, it wouldn't make sense to uh >> to work uh in that sort of scenario where someone was fully aware of those things.
(51:25) So, I don't know if I've ever consciously there probably is an element of me Yeah. avoiding someone that would call me out. >> Yeah. It's not again it's like not a conscious sort of deliberate thing of let me pray on the most vulnerable weak but it's like oh you know we all have unconscious behaviors I mean our relationships are always very difficult and there's always things playing out that we don't necessarily spot in ourselves but other people spot in us >> and I guess that was yeah >> cuz I've never had someone call me out on it but with this relationship I
(51:53) consciously made a choice to come back so you know I'm not painting myself as being this um >> you know hero that came back to you know carry on a relationship I should have done it in the first place but I was able to have time to think about it and realize what I was doing and the patterns that I was having and I and I came back to that relationship.
(52:09) But if I look at the early stages of it, it was probably quite toxic. >> Unconsciously >> unconsciously toxic. I mean, she did have everything provided and then it just left. So from her, it was very painful. >> Of course, in your head, were you thinking I'm doing the best I can right now? To be fair, this specific scenario, I was um married before obviously meeting her and then we the relationship broke down and then you know a time later uh I met this new girlfriend and at the beginning it did seem like not the right time cuz I just got recently
(52:38) out of a marriage. She was living in America. I had a son there and it was just chaotic. So in my mind it was it's not the right time >> and then when you have a justifiable reason for it seems fully valid. So that was my reason at the time. It's not the right time. I need time to process. I don't know if I'm jumping in too quickly. I need to think about it.
(52:57) And you could look at that and go that was the right decision. But at the same time, someone got hurt in that. >> Did you communicate whereas like what's your relationship side? You do you do you can do you sit there and think that's how she feels and I'm thinking about two people and how or I'm just thinking about myself.
(53:12) >> Yeah. No, I I I try to. >> Yeah. >> I don't always get it right though and sometimes I can miss it. like at that time I you know I [snorts] she she knew the situation I was where you know you know a little while ago I was in this relationship and uh it was a bit soon >> and I told her about that so she in my mind it's kind of you know what you're getting into and I never promise her anything but obviously if you get taken around the world and meet someone that you think you know you're really compatible with then it's obviously
(53:40) going to hurt that person and I should have really consciously known that it wasn't going to hurt me but it was going to hurt her but in in my mind she was kind of knew knew what she signing up for. That's why I thought it was okay when I just called things off. >> Where did you learn the love bombing from? >> Again, that's that wasn't a conscious thing. I didn't know I was love bombing.
(53:57) >> Yeah. >> I thought you weren't laboring it. You thought it was >> I thought I was being Prince Charming. I thought this was a good thing to do. >> It was uh >> it was only when I intellectually started to understand these concepts, I was like, "Oh, that's what I've been doing. I've been like seeking this approval and need and I wanting to feel sort of powerful and significant and trying to draw this person in uh rather than sort of like >> deeply connecting with somebody on a on a more natural level. It's more
(54:21) superficial. >> Mhm. >> But yeah, I didn't know that until I learned about it. >> Yeah. This is just making me feel like how many people out there are doing all these behaviors and are they're completely unaware that they're even doing them. And because we now have terminologies, a lot of the judgment is they are aware >> and maybe they're not.
(54:38) >> No, I mean, like you said, 90% of this podcast is women. >> Yeah. >> Men aren't watching it. [laughter] >> They don't know they're doing it. >> Yeah. That's crazy. Like that's why we need to get them to watch it. Yeah. I I think it's uh women are so aware of it today that they're like, "Oh, I was gas lit. I was this. I was that.
(54:55) " Like they're very aware of what's happening to them. And I'm like, and then we're assuming that the other party is doing it intentionally. >> And I think that's one of the fallacies we're breaking in this conversation is you are a diagnosed psychopath and you're like, I was completely unaware that I was doing these behaviors.
(55:12) There are psychopaths that are aware, but that's also a minute percentage, but the general, you know, uh, mass is probably living there not knowing. It's like we watch a lot of also these love TV shows and you're seeing all these absurd behaviors on these TV shows like love is blind and love and you're like oh my god he's gaslighting or he's doing this and that >> and the character might not even be aware that they're doing it.
(55:36) It just kind of goes like oh my god therapy therapy is the solution for everybody right get in a relationship the first thing you do is get a counselor or go do the Gottman Institute uh of relationship therapy because how else are we going to know? Well, I talk about I had the luxury of hitting rock bottom.
(55:54) You know, I went to prison for this violent crime. I was a drug addict and alcoholic. I was gambling. Uh I was selling drugs. You destructive violence to myself and others. You know, it was and I was able to go I went to prison, but then I also got access to rehabilitation inside there. So, I went to rehab. I had counseling, psychotherapy, AA meetings.
(56:14) When I was released, I went to rehab for 6 months. And I thought they were going to teach me how to not drink and not take drugs. But really they taught me about myself, you know, learning all these concepts to just articulate everything that was going on in my head. It just felt stuffed and I didn't understand anything.
(56:27) Just autopilot >> and so many assumptions of how the world worked was just completely false and wrong. >> And [snorts] going through that process, it I just realized that it was beneficial and I just ran with it and just learned more and more and more. But most people don't have the luxury of the desire to work on themselves in that way.
(56:41) >> Yeah. >> Has to get really bad usually before they go, okay, now I've got to, >> you know, that's like fortunately the position I found myself in. But if things aren't really bad, a lot of people just kind of leave it as it is or leave it unchecked. They don't really realize how much of an impact it's having or how beneficial, you know, therapy or, you know, any form of personal development could have on them.
(56:59) >> Is there anything today that triggers your uh psychosis or psychopathy? drugs and alcohol if I drink and yeah that's like I have I can control myself when [snorts] I'm clean and sober but if like [clears throat] with drugs and alcohol I've just completely gone like my eyes glaze over and I just you know I can't be controlled so that's just something I can't do you know we haven't really gone into my story but there was a is a deep issue with my dad like my dad called me a buffoon when I was younger stupid
(57:27) never amount to anything probably my I mean I've had lots of trauma from you know brief sexual abuse to um trying to commit suicide to um losing a baby when I was older. All these traumas have kind of obviously affected me, but the one that really sticks out is my dad. Like that's the one that I know where it started from because whenever I do any therapy or talking, that's the one it goes back to or whenever I >> feel triggered.
(57:51) There's something to do with my dad there. And I think that's, you know, quite common with a lot of people. It's a lot, you know, the people closest to you, your mom, your dad, partners, things like that. But I think, you know, it's very brutal thing to say, but fortunately, he's he's he's dead because I I think that he would I wouldn't be able to be around him for a second >> because every time we had conversations, it would just turn into a like blind rage with each other.
(58:16) And I've been able to get my get my life back on track >> because he's out of the picture. But if he, you know, yeah, if he was around, I think that'd be very difficult to cope with. I don't know. really digging into those things I think could set me off. Like when I was when I was younger and aware of myself, if anyone made me disrespected me to make me feel stupid, that would that would trigger me.
(58:36) It be the tiniest things like when I was in rehab, uh we were playing Scrabble and someone tried to tell me a word existed when it didn't or something like that. And I just, you know, I could feel this rage, you know, and I've had I still can get rage. Um there are triggers there, but I'm more aware of them now.
(58:51) And that and if you become aware of where it comes from, it doesn't actually affect you as much. Like in that moment, I didn't think because of this word, you're making me feel stupid. You're disrespecting me. You're making me feel like my dad. You're making me feel this insecured young child that doesn't know how to. I didn't think of any of that.
(59:03) It's just immediate um like >> yeah, >> entitled aggression where I actually feel like they are fully deserving of whatever I do, you know? So the more therapy you do, the more aware of yourself, >> the pause between that reaction, that trigger and the reaction. Yeah. >> And it doesn't actually affect you as much cuz you go, "Oh, it's that again.
(59:23) " >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is there an unmet need from your parents that you're still looking for? Here's the part I want you to pay attention to. Coercive control only works on someone who was already trained to be controlled, not weak. Trained. The habit of staying, the instinct to explain away the feeling, the way you made yourself smaller so the situation stayed manageable.
(59:49) None of that came from nowhere. It came from somewhere earlier. A place where your needs weren't convenient. Where your doubt was dramatic. Where keeping the peace was more important than telling the truth. What you heard today was extreme. Your version is quieter. But the same route. The quiz at deprogramhur.com/quiz names the pattern in 2 minutes.
(1:00:16) Click the link in the description and find it out. Is there an unmet need from your parents that you're still looking for? >> Yeah, there's the the significance one that I spoke about, you know, because I didn't feel the love. Um, and again, whether that's the nature or nurture, I don't know, maybe they provided some love to me. I couldn't feel it.
(1:00:33) Or maybe they could have done a better job of sort of supporting me and making me feel it and or maybe a bit of both. But because I feel the significance well when I say feel it's again it's more stimulation but significance hits with me and it does feed into like the narcissism the grandiosense of self. So now I know probably a combination of the trauma and the condition mean that everything that I do is trying to fulfill that need like I want to be successful in business.
(1:01:03) Why do I want to make a impact in the world? Yeah. But why? Because >> you want to feel significant. I want to feel smooth. I want people to know that I've done it. If I did it in some secret way and no one knew, I probably wouldn't care. So, yeah, it does fulfill me in a way.
(1:01:17) It's uh and I know now that I'm on this everlasting climb of the next thing that will make me feel a bit better. If I do that, I feel a bit better. If I do that, I feel a bit better. Then I do it and I realize I don't. So, I actually know now that I I'm either never going to feel what I'm looking to feel, which is one thing to come to terms with.
(1:01:30) There could be there could be an element of peace where I go, I'm not going to feel those things. Give up or >> But if you give up, what's going to happen to you? That's true. That's true. Exactly. And that's that's why I let that program play out. I know that this climb is not going to magically make me feel any better, but actually it serves a purpose of keeping me going and stimulated.
(1:01:50) Um or maybe I'll really dive back into therapy again and uncover something else that kind of clicks things into place a little bit. I don't know. Um it's an everlasting evolving thing really. I'm always learning more about myself. >> What are you doing today to bring awareness to your diagnosis? I mean, [sighs and gasps] I've been on Netflix as a documentary.
(1:02:09) I've written a book, I'm on podcast, things like that. It's not the core work that I do. The work that I do is actually more um coaching, training. And cuz I deeply understand how normal people operate from the um educational standpoint rather than more experiential. I'm quite different. It's not like I coach other psychopaths or anything like that.
(1:02:28) It's almost like a side thing that I do to bring awareness, but it has an impact on other people as well. Hearing it from another perspective because I think the main thing isn't necessarily other people that are experiencing uh these toxic relationships that can be helpful as well. But I think just the fact that I'm able to be open and authentic despite any repercussions, I think is important for people that they might be able to share their story or be more them because I think most people aren't being true to themselves in some way or
(1:02:51) another. Whether it's, you know, a masking because of a condition or just not fully embracing who they really are because they're trying to fit in or be accepted by people. So >> I just try and be honest even if it doesn't sound right. Um cuz I think also a lot of people aren't as perfect as they make out.
(1:03:08) they've probably been quite toxic or done made some bad decisions or >> everybody has, you know, like we we've been born into this world with invisible rules that were followed and behaviors were not even aware of. So, every single person's got a list of conditioning and flaws and part of our journey is just becoming better than yesterday.
(1:03:25) Like there perfection doesn't exist. We're never going to be perfect humans, you know? So, I I completely resonate and agree with that. Um, at the end of the shadow sessions, we usually have a list of quickfire questions. I have some for you. Are you ready? >> Yeah. >> What is the most dangerous lie you've ever believed? >> Probably that I can't change.
(1:03:48) >> And I still sort of battle with that sometimes, you know, but of course you can change parts, you know, change your behavior. But I think before I thought you are who you are >> and I've now realized that you can change parts and evolve and adapt even if you are inherently a certain way. Um, but I think before, you know, when I my dad might tell me I was stupid and I'm I've done bad things, therefore I'm a bad person, I inherently thought that's who I am and I'm never going to break out from that. And as as a result, I
(1:04:13) never even tried and I never even put myself in situations where things could be more positive or where I could get access to help. So I think, you know, with beliefs and identity, if you feel a certain way, cuz a lot of people around me was confirming that as well. My mom said to me, "We all know you're not going to make old bones, Lewis.
(1:04:28) " um cuz she thought I was going to die young. Um and people just accepted that's who I was and I kind of did as well. And and if I'd have held on to that belief and identity that I was this bad unlovable person that was incapable of change even in a different way, you know, than I might have thought at the time, then I never would have done anything that I've done now.
(1:04:49) And you know, I probably would have been dead or in prison again. >> What are you still unlearning? >> I mean, ironic is linked to that. Everything's a contradiction because I still want to unlearn more about the fact that I'm bad and unlovable, you know, because I do feel that. I do. Well, I say feel I do identify with that.
(1:05:07) >> I think that >> Yeah, I think that it's easier to use language that you'll understand. But I think and identify with the fact that I am this bad person, but I'm learning to be pretend to be good in a way. >> But I much prefer to just completely drop the identity that I am bad and actually just believe I'm good.
(1:05:24) just difficult when there's a a condition maybe or a trauma that's completely masking that. Yeah. >> So, I think letting go of more of that would be, you know, beneficial. >> Charm or fear? Which one is more powerful? >> Fear. >> Forgiveness or acceptance? >> Acceptance. >> Loyalty or love? >> Loyalty. >> Love or desire? >> Oh, love.
(1:05:53) doesn't >> you don't believe [laughter] that one. >> Yeah, I know. I mean, but if I'm just weighing it up. >> Yeah. >> You know, I would I'd still like to think that I have love. It's just not a felt sense. And I still crave and desire that although it's uh >> What do you fear most? Being hated or being misunderstood.
(1:06:07) >> I'm both of those. [laughter] I don't fear those things. I don't fear is one of the things I don't get. >> And if there was one sentence that you can say to describe who you are today, what would you use? >> Someone still trying to figure out himself. Yeah, I haven't got the answer to that. I'm on a quest to figure that one out.
(1:06:26) >> Louis, thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom, and for sharing your story and trying to help people a little bit understand what a psychopath is. And uh yeah, thank you for being here. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for sitting in the dark with us. Some conversations end and you move on.
(1:06:45) Others follow you into the rest of your day. If this was one of those, let it. Don't rush to fix what opened up. The understanding matters more than the fixing. This is the shadow sessions where not all darkness is dangerous. Until next time, stay