Psychology of Confidence: Narcissism, Toxic Love & Male Identity | Mark Manson | FO503 Raj Shamani
Author Name:Raj Shamani
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@rajshamani
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig1VtIEFkcI
Transcript:
(00:00) Why is it like that more women are attracted towards really toxic men? >> A toxic relationship is very exciting. The emotional highs are very high, the emotional lows are very low, and there's a certain addictiveness to it. Even when this person is treating you like crap, >> today we're joined by Mark Manson, the three-time number one New York Times bestselling author whose ideas have changed the way millions of people think about success, happiness, relationships, and meaning.
(00:26) What's the most psychologically damaging tactic that pickup artists use against women? >> There's a thing called the neg. It's when the man will intentionally say something to make the woman feel insecure. And the theory behind it is that when you make people feel insecure, it is human nature for them to try to win over your approval and um they want to be validated by you.
(00:47) In this conversation, we talk about the myths we've been sold about success, the psychological traps of modern life, and the difficult truths that most people avoid discussing. Why are women attracted more by status? Women aren't just attracted to status. They're attracted to the potential of status. This is why you see a lot of women will be attracted to a man who kind of has nothing going on in his life.
(01:09) They kind of have this sense of like, well, if I can just help him figure it out, he's going to go places. This episode is not just meant to entertain you. It's meant to make you pause, think, and maybe even question some of the beliefs you've been carrying for years. So, take a moment, remove the distractions, and listen carefully.
(01:27) What's one brutal truth? Nice guys need to hear that just being nice is not enough. >> A nice guy is not actually nice. He's being nice because he thinks it's going to get him something. And that's not nice. It's manipulative. But the thing is is like women are not dumb. They sense this and so they are immediately turned off by it. But how do you differentiate them? The person with fake confidence versus real confidence.
(01:46) >> It's actually very easy. Tell them no. >> What do you mean by that? >> Tell them they're wrong. A narcissist is not going to tolerate it. A confident person will be like, "Oh, okay. We disagree. Let's talk about it." >> Theory by Rene Gerard. Women want men more than other women want them. Do you think that's true? >> I wouldn't be surprised.
(02:02) Female attraction is driven more by status than male attraction is. What's one manipulation tactic you believe everybody should learn regardless of what field they are in? This episode is brought to you by our travel partner, Gobo. Check out the link in the description to download the app and avail exclusive first-time user discounts.
(02:31) Before we start today's episode, I have a small request. If you find these conversations valuable, please subscribe to this channel. It helps us bring more powerful guest and valuable insights for you. >> You don't have very high cons in India. >> Uh you know it's funny. I've been there twice and it's about almost 10 years apart.
(02:58) The first time I went was a long time ago and it was as a westerner it was like very shocking and then I went back 10 years later and it changed a lot. So it just it's just developing so quickly and it's >> um yeah it's just it's it's like growing so fast like it just >> when first time you went to India and then next time it was better. >> Okay.
(03:21) And something which still bothers you about >> um so the first time I went I think I was just I was shocked at at the the the amount of poverty. Um and especially like how condensed it was in certain parts of India. Um I had seen poverty before. I'd been to many poor countries before but I'd never seen that much in like that small of an area.
(03:45) >> And so I think that was that was very shocking. >> The density was high. Yeah. Um the second time I went I saw I saw less of it. I mean obviously there was still poverty but like it didn't seem as overwhelming or constant everywhere I went. Um and things seemed I mean India is always chaotic.
(04:08) It it seemed a little more organized and a little bit more structured and um and it just everything seemed a yeah a little bit more in place. Um India I mean India's tough. I I don't dislike India. I it's just such an extreme like like you you will have one of the most beautiful experiences of your life one day and then see one of the most horrific things you've seen in your life the next day.
(04:36) Yeah. >> And it's in the same place, right? And so it's just I you know coming from the US like we're not used to that. It's it's it's just very jarring to be like taken from one extreme to the other than back again. And um but I I I really do like India. I have a lot of fans in India now. And uh I love the food. I love the culture.
(04:59) Um I love some of the music. So I'm a fan. It's uh but yeah, that article was years ago. >> It was it was a long time ago and it it definitely got it definitely got over there and a lot of people got angry and upset. So, uh >> yeah, but see that was your opinion. At the end of the day, everybody can have different experiences.
(05:22) So, I mean it's as a as somebody who's from India >> and I've seen parts of it and I've seen the most rural areas to the most exciting and the rich areas. >> Yeah. I understand where you're coming from, but it pissed me off as well. >> Oh yeah. >> I'm not going to lie. >> Yeah. >> But you're like you can you can have your own opinion. Yeah.
(05:42) >> What still bothers you about India? What do you think? >> I don't think anything bothers me about India >> this time when you went was there anything that you noticed which anything which was still true from the article that you wrote in 2009? I think it it was it wasn't that anything it wasn't that anything wasn't true anymore.
(06:07) I just think it it it had I think two things that happened. I think one is India changed which is India developed quite a bit >> and then the other thing is that I got older and my understanding of the world changed right and >> my understanding of how different parts of the world are evolved and developed as well.
(06:27) So, you know, that that article was written when I was 25 and then I went back when I was 35 and and I'd been to probably 20 or 30 other countries by that point. And um so yeah, you you you go back with a a different >> What were you like when you were 25? >> I I was uh I was I was a [ __ ] American kid, you know, like I was just with his backpack going to see the world.
(06:53) I think I was very idealistic and um probably in many ways naive. Um, I didn't really Yeah, I I I I I don't really think I had any understanding of the rest of the world. And um or or my understanding of the rest of the world was like just stuff I read in books and I thought I understood and um I think by the time I mean at this point I think I'm a much more realistic about just how the world is.
(07:21) And >> so that article was written by 25 What do you say? >> You're making it sound like I I agree with you. Now, you know, it's really funny because I I I think that article was very well written, but I I do think it was too harsh. Like I I look at it now and I think it's it's too harsh or it's not nuanced enough.
(07:45) Um it could have been more nuanced. Um but it it was an honest experience. Like that's how I felt. >> Fair. Everybody can have different experiences, you know. In fact, one of the guests on the podcast said, "You get extremely offended when you know that someone else is telling truth." >> And that's I don't want to say that what you what you experience must be entirely true or whatever it can be, but >> that's why it pissed people off.
(08:13) >> Yeah. >> Because a part of it in 2009 must be true. >> Yeah. I mean, >> or else you won't get offended. Well, the funny laughing off. >> The funny thing is is when that that when that piece went viral in India, I got a lot of emails from Indians saying, "You're lying." And I'm like, >> this is what I saw.
(08:33) Like I'm not I'm not just going to make this up like it. The other funny thing about that funny story about that article is I uh so I wrote that article. It went viral. It went viral in India. I got hundreds of emails from Indians saying, "Well, what about your country?" And I was like, "You know what? All right.
(08:52) And so I sat down and I wrote an article [ __ ] all over the United States. And then that article went viral. And then I got hundreds of emails from Americans being like, "You're lying." So you know, you just can't you can't win. like okay do you love that part about you that go out [ __ ] on people and then get like lot of emails and attention that much that can be a good brand building tactic as well at least when you're 25 and not >> yeah I mean back then I think I was more I was more disagreeable back then um the the thing that is true is that I have
(09:34) always really liked saying the thing that's true but nobody else will say. Like I've always really even when I was young, I really adopted that role of like, okay, there's this thing that everybody's thinking and nobody's going to say. I'm going to say it, right? >> And it gets you into trouble sometimes. It also is a huge asset sometimes as well, right? because you're and many times you're doing people a service if you're willing to say what what everyone's thinking but afraid to.
(10:10) Um but yeah, sometimes you you just kind of become an [ __ ] >> Do do we get a new article now about India now that you're wise? >> I would love to go back. I actually I really want to take my wife. Um >> it's just it's India so far and it the thing about India too is is it's so far and it's so big and diverse that it doesn't make sense to just go for a week or 4 days like if you're going to go to India like you go to India right like you go you go spend a month you go to the north to the south um you go to the rural the urban so I think one day I I
(10:51) would like to go there with her um and revisit it. But um but yeah, it's probably not. >> Let us let us host you next time, okay? >> And then we'll show you a different side of India. Probably you'll have better words to say then. But did you notice anything about what the culture differences in terms of just how how society is how easy it is for Americans to not give a versus Indians because we are so family oriented and like did you notice any of that? >> Yeah, I it's there's definitely like a clear emphasis put on
(11:31) family and uh hospitality. I mean I've talked to plenty of Indian readers at this point both in India and you know in the United States >> um and it's the the cultural stuff comes up a lot because it is each culture has different expectations and different expectations cause different anxieties or different concerns.
(11:59) So um and yeah in India a lot of that revolves around family uh pleasing your parents um you know performing well uh honoring your family like all that stuff and it's we don't have as much of that in in American culture but um you know the result is the same there's expectations placed on you those expectations cause you to become anxious to give too many [ __ ] um and then it it makes decisions difficult Yeah, because it's so difficult like when I compare America versus India, >> the first and the foremost comparison is individualisticdriven society versus
(12:36) communitydriven society. India has a lot communitydriven society where you have to put community interest over self-interest. >> Yeah. >> And then you have to take decisions based on the family, the community, the the religion, the society, everything. >> And then you come at the last. Do you think that's healthy or not? I personally think both have trade-offs.
(12:58) Uh, and it's it's it's kind of pick your poison. >> Um, and I think both of them bring valuable things to people, right? So, right now here in the United States, a lot of thought leaders and pundits and academics are saying that we are in the midst of a a not just a mental health crisis, but a loneliness crisis.
(13:22) And a and a big part of it is that just people people in US they don't know their neighbors. They've lost touch with their family. They live in completely different cities from their their family. Um they live by themselves, right? And and there's all of these mental health problems that Americans are starting to have because they're so isolated and alone all the time.
(13:41) They're just focusing on their own work, doing their own thing, trying to improve themselves all the time. And so that's not healthy. And I so it's like that community focus would probably be good here to a certain extent but then it's you also look at the great things about the United States right it is very individualistic and if you do have a goal people celebrate you pursuing that goal here um they they celebrate you achieving it and succeeding and it's um so it's also it's also kind of the best thing I I actually developed a little
(14:16) bit of a theory when I was traveling and living in a bunch of different countries which is >> generally speaking the best thing about a culture is also the worst thing and it's like and I imagine in India it's I mean you tell me like if if that family orientation or that community orientation it's probably both the best thing about Indian culture but it's also probably the cause of a lot most of your problems in India culture I imagine yeah >> and the same is true here >> so what's your opinion on that because
(14:48) you know I feel that For a lot of us, it can be a blessing. >> Mhm. >> Because communitydriven society and then when everyone in the community is supporting of what you want to do in your life and you want to focus on your competence and then take care of your family the way you want to do it but still be actively focused on developing that community and society and giving it back.
(15:09) >> I think that's a great thing. But for few of us it becomes so toxic because then there are few people who are who are in charge and they force themselves on you and then you're just living in this false identity where you're trying to please them and internally there's a lot of conflict and you're just every day >> thinking about >> either killing that dream leaving the family or just being alone and being suffocated every then you you can't just be happy and you get emotionally numb.
(15:39) >> Yeah. So for a lot of us it's great but for a few of us it's like it's horrible. >> Yeah. And I sympathize with what you just said was probably the most common one I would hear from from Indians which was it was usually something like I want to be an artist or I want to be a dancer or I want to go abroad and pursue this dream that I have but my parents want me to be an engineer or they want me to study and get into this school and I hate it.
(16:13) I I absolutely hate it and what do I do, right? And of course me being American, I'm like, why are you asking me? Like I have no understanding. I've never had an Indian family. Like why why would I know? But I I sympathize with with how hard it is. Um, it's funny because you you kind of run into a little bit of the opposite here where American culture is so there's so much emphasis put on achievement that when you have people who do want to be more family oriented, who do want to say maybe quit their career, stay home, raise a bunch of children, um whether
(16:52) man or woman, people kind of judge them, right? There's like there's a little bit of a a condescension of like, well, you're just kind of giving up. Is that it? >> You're just going to stay home with the kids? Come on. Like, that's weak. You know, and it's I don't think that's healthy.
(17:12) It's really it it's it's a problem here. Um like we we don't have enough family oriented culture here. I I feel like on on this question, you know, it's like India is probably at one extreme and the US is probably at another and they're like the health there's a healthy middle that we're both missing. >> True.
(17:31) Because in India, you look down upon if you leave your family and focus on your career. >> Yeah. >> So people are like how selfish can you be if you're not actually taking care of your family, building a beautiful family, having kids and being that family oriented. >> Yeah. >> So it's opposite here. >> Yeah. You know in fact the most simple thing have you have you looked down or like studied or maybe just observed the way Indians choose their partners? >> No I would I would actually love I would love to hear from you about this.
(18:01) >> Majority of us >> in India you are looked down upon by for choosing the partner that you want and your family disagrees with that. >> So majority of Indians actually get into arranged marriages. Okay. >> Then love marriages. >> Yeah. >> Because your family is arranged as per their standard or as per their likings or whatever that that thing is.
(18:24) For few of few of the people, for few of us, it works out really well. >> Yeah. >> But a lot of people find it very hard. >> Yeah. I mean it you're really hoping that your parents have good judgment. Yeah. >> And it's like you get penalized for choosing a partner and going against your partner, going against your family.
(18:47) >> Yeah. >> Have you have you read about arranged marriage versus >> I mean I I've heard about it. It's funny. I had a I had a friend in in university uh who was Indian and an Indian immigrant and her parents were Indian. >> And it was funny because her her parents forbade her from dating anybody who was not an Indian.
(19:08) And and it had to be an she had to date an Indian boy and her parents had to know him first and approve her dating him before she could even like go on a date with him. And it was funny because I remember talking to her about it and and she obviously she didn't like it, but it was interesting. She was the first person I ever met in my life that she said that that I guess kind of made an argument for arranged marriage.
(19:34) Um, and as as an American, like I had never to me arranged marriage is crazy. Like it's just never unimaginable. Um, but I remember she said she was like, you know, uh, I'm paraphrasing. This isn't exactly what she said, but she basically said, "We're young and stupid. Like, we don't know what we like. We don't know who we like.
(19:56) Uh, we're very emotional, right? And our parents are not. Our parents are very they're wise. They're experienced. >> They're rational about it. >> They've made a lot of mistakes. They've met a lot of people. And so, they're they are probably going to see things that I cannot." And she also kind of brought up something which I thought was very interesting was she said that um you know in Indian culture you like correct me if I'm wrong but like divorce is just not really an option it's just unheard of and she she said she's like the fact that you just can't divorce uh
(20:26) it forces you to figure things out. And I definitely think in American culture there's a little bit of truth to it's so easy to divorce here and it's so socially accepted here. uh that I actually think it it maybe it should be harder to divorce because I see a lot of couples that just give up and I'm like well you know if you stuck with it for a couple years you might turn it around but I I I don't know I don't have a strong opinion on that but I I do I do find it very interesting to think about.
(20:56) >> So in India you're going to get a lot of hate for saying this >> for saying what >> for saying that it should be harder to get divorced because it's so hard. Is it really? >> It's you can you can file for a divorce. It's >> like legally it's easier to get out. >> Yeah. >> But socially it's so taxing and difficult.
(21:16) >> Yeah. >> And it's just and >> in some parts it's way more difficult for women than men. >> Like socially it just >> I imagine Yeah. >> It gets so bad like it in fact people are fighting day in and day out to make this whole divorce thing more socially accepted and easier. >> Yeah.
(21:38) Well, for the record, I think uh in America it's probably too easy. In India, I imagine it's too hard. So, I'm I it should be you should not be socially condemned for it. >> Mhm. >> For sure. >> You know, now it's changing like in a lot of metro cities, in the good cities >> where you're talking about development. A lot of people in >> they're changing.
(21:57) >> Yeah. >> It's uh they are getting into dates. they're actually going out and figuring out what kind of partner they want to be with. >> They're finally I think for the first time in last five six years we've been hearing that men and women they're going out on multiple dates before even deciding >> uh who to go who to actually be in a long-term relationship with because earlier this was not even a concept.
(22:21) >> Yeah. >> Dating was not a thing. >> Yeah. >> It's becoming a thing and you've been the pickup artist. you've been into a lot of this stuff, right? >> Yeah. >> Because India is just going through that that phase which probably in America was years ago. >> Mhm. >> Or probably still is, I don't know. >> What do you think? What's the most psychologically damaging tactic >> that pickup artists use against women or against any gender? The most psychologically damaging tactic I think there's a thing called the neg which is basically it's when the the man
(23:05) will intentionally uh say something to make the woman feel insecure but it's usually it's usually framed in a way that it sounds very innocent like he's not trying to insult her but he's kind of insulting her. Um, so it it might be something like, uh, you know, oh, uh, I really like your shoes.
(23:30) They they remind me of, I don't know, like this pair I saw in a really cheap store that nobody likes, right? You know, and it's just like you say things in a way that just make her question herself and like feel bad about herself without really looking like you're you're doing that. And the theory behind it is that when you make people feel insecure, they it is human nature for them to try to win over your approval and um they want to be validated by you.
(23:59) And generally speaking, when a woman wants to be validated by you, she's more susceptible to, you know, want to hook up with you. And so it's just it's very manipulative. It's very distasteful. It's disrespectful. Um, and interestingly, I think it's it ironically it it really only works on women who already feel bad about themselves because any woman who has a lot of respect for herself is going to hear that and be like, "Wow, you're kind of an [ __ ] and she'll probably walk away and go talk to somebody else.
(24:33) " Um, but the women who already feel very insecure about themselves and and um don't feel good about themselves, if you kind of poke at it, Mhm. >> It it they act out even more and >> they want to win you even more. >> Even more. >> Why does it work? >> Because it's I mean, look, we all want the approval of others.
(24:55) Uh and it's we all want to be validated and appreciated and you know to to feel like other people respect us. And if you don't respect yourself, then you are even more so reliant on the validation and the attention of others. and to the point where it's like everything you do is to win the validation and attention of others.
(25:15) And so when you come across somebody who keeps kind of like dangling that approval in front of you and then pulling it away and pulling it away, you know, it's like with a dog or something like it's >> they start getting like they try even harder and harder and harder. And so it it is point blank manipulation.
(25:36) Um, it's manipulation of of somebody who has low self-esteem to get something that you want out of them. Coincidentally, it's pickup artists took this from a very normal mainstream place. This tactic, it's from marketing and sales, right? If you think about if you think about like aggressive sales tactics, >> it's if I want you to buy something that I'm selling, >> I'm going to find some insecurity or something you feel bad about, right? You know, it's like if you feel like you need to lose some weight, I'm going to point out, you know, oh, those jeans
(26:11) don't fit. Um, or if you feel like you're you need a new haircut, you know, maybe point something out about that. Oh, and then by the way, I've got this new weight loss product. Right? It's it's you poke the insecurity, make them feel really bad, and then you offer them the solution.
(26:28) And it works in marketing and sales. And um and it translates, it can translate over to dating, but it turns the dating into a very transactional relationship, which is just ultimately unsatisfying >> for everybody. But when you're actually trying to date in the beginning according to this concept, >> do you then try to find women who are generally insecure about themselves? >> Like do you try to just have a strategy to just go at people who you think are more insecure? >> I don't think so.
(27:03) Um, honestly, I think most pickup artists are too stupid to like think that far ahead. Um, it's funny because I I remember back when I was in that industry, I used to try to point out >> to to to guys, I used to say, "You realize this only works on insecure women, right? That there's a whole population of secure women who feel good about themselves who literally are not talking to you because you're an asshole.
(27:31) " And a lot of these men like had no clue. They just assumed that all women were this way and um and this is what you had to do to get a date and uh yeah it's just it's the that whole philosophy is is very untethered to reality. I hope it's not >> becoming you believe like all this pickup artistry manipulation or tricks and tips the stuff that is all online and people learn all of this.
(27:58) It only works on low value women. It doesn't work on high value women. >> Uh most of it. Yeah. I mean there there are some principles that are look the the simplest way to put it is that the only real dating advice is self-improvement, right? Like if you want to date better women, become a better person. It's that simple.
(28:23) Uh, now if you want to hack that, you can hack it through different manipulation tactics and whatnot, which is what pickup artists do. Um, so it's not that it's all wrong because there is some stuff like if you go into that industry, you will see a lot of self-improvement content. You know, it's it's there's a lot of like teaching men how to dress better and how to fix their body language and their posture and how to speak more confidently.
(28:50) Like all of those things are very valuable and important, but it's as soon as you get into like the man manipulation tactics, it's it's very unhealthy. And it's only going to work on women who have low self-esteem and it's only going to create relationships that are very unsatisfying because you're you're building the relationship on on a transaction of validation and that doesn't last.
(29:11) >> What's one manipulation tactic you believe everybody should learn regardless of what field they are in? It's it doesn't have to be just necessarily dating, >> but something from this world >> that you feel is is truly it has some merit to it. >> Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of valuable concepts in that world that you don't necessarily have to apply that way.
(29:40) Um so for example like there's a concept called social proof which is and it comes from psychology. It's basically it's just the there's a heruristic in psychology that uh people tend to value something that they see other people valuing. Um and so if you let's say you're walking down you're in Beverly Hills here and you're walking past a bunch of shops and there's one store with like a hundred people standing outside trying to get in.
(30:07) Human nature is wow I wonder what's in that store. I want to go in too. And it we don't even think about it. It's just very instinctual. So, um I think like understanding the social dynamics like that is is very valuable. Like it's there there's stuff like that. You know, pickup artists will use that to I don't know.
(30:31) They'll like find some girl outside and pretend like it's their girlfriend to make this other girl. It's stupid stupid stuff. But that that concept I have found very valuable in my career in like networking. um you know, you go to um you know, you go to a business meeting and you you know that you have a mutual friend with the person you're you're meeting, you know, bring up that friend, say, "Hey, I' I've known so and so for many many years.
(30:58) Oh, he's a good guy. He's a good friend. I've done work with him before." That's like indicating to the person that you're hoping to do business with that like you're okay, right? Because you've got this social proof of a mutual friend. So there's a bunch of stuff that's just it can be very valuable in other areas of life, but um yeah, in dating it's not good.
(31:16) >> Does it work? The social proof thing, doesn't it come off as in the business world or in the dating world? >> Doesn't it come off as showing off or trying too hard? Like imagine if I come here and we want to do business and >> I find out let's say there's somebody you are following and they follow you and then I figure out this it's a common link and probably I have that mutual as well >> and the moment I meet you instead of trying to form a genuine bond and a relationship which could turn into something fruitful in business world.
(31:51) >> Yeah. >> I bring up their name and try to just show you that hey I know this guy and I've done this this this this. Doesn't it come off as like >> it depends on how you do it, right? So, >> tell me a good way to do it. >> Well, I I think it it also depends on the context and like what you want, right? So, for example, like a social media following, it's it's social proof.
(32:12) And I mean, I had no idea who you are, but your team emailed my team. We looked at your accounts. It's like, okay, this guy's doing a lot of stuff. He's got a lot of fans, right? We should talk to him. It's social proof is like an indicator, right? It's like we don't have time to go deep and get personal with every single person we meet.
(32:36) And so something like social proof, it can be like a shortcut to kind of make a decision of like, okay, this is probably this is probably worth, >> you know, sitting down and meeting this guy or whatever. But it depends on the context. Like that's a business context. And I think in your social life, yeah, it's annoying.
(32:52) Like if if you if you get invited to a dinner party and you sit down and you just start bragging to everybody about the they got all the people you know >> exactly name drop >> you're going to sound like an [ __ ] So it it is it you have to be like very careful about the context and and what your intention is with everything. I generally speaking I I almost think of life is in two categories.
(33:13) There's kind of the there are my personal relationships that are very unconditional. So this would be romantic relationships. This would be personal friendships. This would be family. And it's the strictest rule for all personal relationships is is it is non-transactional. I'm I every interaction I have with my friends or my wife or my parents or whatever.
(33:37) I'm never doing something to get something in return because that is it's inauthentic. It's manipulative. Uh and that's what protects healthy relationships in that area of my life. Then there's business and there's like just getting things done. Like if I need to I need to like get my passport renewed for a trip coming.
(34:00) I got to go to a government office and like get get something done quickly. You know, it's like, okay, now we're in transactional world. Now I'm going to pull out all of like all the levers I can pull to get this thing done. as long as I'm not hurting anybody uh and I'm not lying to anybody, like I'm gonna lean on those things, right? Same thing in business.
(34:19) Same thing if I'm trying to sell something to somebody, like I'm I'm definitely going to I'm going to rely on social proof. Like I want if somebody's got 30 seconds watching an ad, I want them to know that like I know my [ __ ] and and people know me, right? So, >> you just have to be very careful about like where you use these domains.
(34:40) And and the problem with the pickup artists is that they take these tactics that work in the business world and then they apply them to their romantic relationships and it's just Yeah. It's just a recipe for disaster. >> Let's call it transactional relationship. There's nothing romantic about it. >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
(34:59) >> Okay. Give me specifics. Let's say if somebody who's watching this right now >> and doesn't have social media following, doesn't have enough social proof, is not privileged enough to actually have a lot of leverage. >> They're just good at their work. >> Mhm. >> Whatever they're trying to make it big, they're starting out.
(35:16) They're doing something. >> Okay. >> If we have to put out two situations, how can they actually build social proof >> and use it to their advantage? A in a business world, B in dating world. And somebody who's just starting out doesn't have a lot of proof because >> social proof >> the tactic of building social proof is I believe is more important for people who have not made it to some level yet.
(35:46) >> Yeah. >> Right. Like social proof is not going to be very big for you because the world knows it. It's very public out there. Somebody who's starting is going to be very difficult. >> Yeah. It's social proof it compounds. Right. And it and it so it starts small and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and then yeah once you >> get to a place like we are it's it's just there like you don't have to try anymore.
(36:06) >> So early on I you know I think in the business context like this is the classic example of like if you are very good at what you do uh find somebody reputable, somebody uh who has a lot of credit in your industry find a way to do work for them. Maybe do it for free. Maybe offer to to volunteer or intern for them.
(36:30) Do something for them to show them how good you are. And then just ask them, say like, "Hey, do you mind giving me a testimonial or um giving me a statement that I can put on my website or put on my social media profile or like recording like a 10-second thing just saying like I did a great job at this so that I can go show other people, right?" And then you take that and and generally if you really do do a good job, 99% of people are going to say yes. Yeah.
(36:55) >> They're gonna have zero problems. So then you take that and you use that to go find, you know, other clients or other work that you can do. And then it, you know, you kind of get this snowball effect going. >> I think in your personal life, it's I don't think it's something you should be intentionally trying to leverage.
(37:12) It's social proof more just kind of happens through I I think what you would call social proof in in your personal life is more just networking. It's just like meeting more people and then um and then getting introduced to their friends, right? So it's it's if you let's say like you moved here to Los Angeles, you meet a bunch of people the first few months you're here.
(37:40) you start getting introduced to their friends and it turns out that like a lot of their friends are going to have know some of the mutual people that you know, right? So, it's it's a very natural thing when you meet a new person, you kind of find out who you know in common and how you know them, where you know them from.
(37:54) And it's again, it's not a it doesn't have to be a manipulative tactic. Like I think in the social world it's just kind of like it's a way of people establishing who you are and and and like how they know you and and that like other people know you and and how they like should relate to you.
(38:14) Um but yeah, I I don't think you should try to consciously leverage it. Like I I remember there's a guy there's a guy here in the US who uh there's actually a few of them, but there's a there there was a guy here in the US who was like a very famous influencer maybe like 10 years ago and uh he what he would do he kept he would post all this content of like him and these gorgeous girls like at a Lakers basketball game or um on a boat, you know, these like beautiful girls in bikinis or whatever.
(38:43) Long story short, it uh turns out like these were models that he was hiring, paying by the hour, you know, to to like stand on his on a boat that he was also renting to do a video. And >> like that's a perfect example of what not to do. I mean, it works in the short run. And this is the same thing that's true with pickup artist stuff.
(39:08) It's like it works in the short run. Like I if you do it well, it might work that night. It might work for a week, but at at a certain point, you're going to run out of lines and tricks. >> Yeah. >> And she's going to see the real you >> and she's not going to like it. So, it's it's because she's going to realize that she was kind of lied to.
(39:31) So, it works, but it puts you it's just not sustainable. like it's not you're not building anything that compounds over a long period of time. >> It works in a short term. >> It can >> you know in the beginning of my podcast journey I used to do this the what I used to do try to make a podcast with whoever I can. >> Yeah. >> And then at the end of the podcast I used to sit down with them personally and just be like >> what is your objective like what are you looking out of this? >> I would not ask this in the beginning I would ask them in the end.
(40:04) >> Okay. And then some would say views, some would say my this opinion needs to come out, some would say my positioning, some would say just I did it for the fun. Some would say I want to turn people's perspective about me. All of that and then I would say I don't know how the podcast is going to perform, but if it does as per your expectation, can you introduce me to someone else who can be a potential guest in your circle? >> Yeah.
(40:27) >> And it worked like anything. It worked so good in my favor. And that's how I built my initial level of guest. >> Yeah. And that's how like I would ask them, I would deliver it and I would then put my whole of head, my team, my intention, my efforts into making that podcast work in that particular way. >> Yeah.
(40:47) >> And smart. >> Yeah. And then people would actually be very nice to introduce me to some people who >> otherwise I would have never been able to reach. >> Yeah. >> So that credibility of social proof and stuff like that, it works. But talking about the one in the dating world, right? There's a there's a thing or I would say theory by Rene Gerard.
(41:08) >> Yeah. Like she said that female desire is triangular. >> Okay. >> Right. It requires another woman to validate the target. >> Women want men more >> when other women want them. >> Interesting. So, >> do you think that's true? >> I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. >> Do you think like have you noticed it more women want a man because other women also want it or maybe >> a woman who she values >> if that woman feels that this person is valuable then she wants it even more >> potentially. I mean the research so the
(41:53) research on male and female sexuality is is interesting because they are quite different and and female attraction is driven more by status than male male attraction is. Um so that's why it wouldn't surprise me. Um it's also female attraction is is more it's more emotionally driven than male attraction.
(42:18) So that's that also wouldn't surprise me. Why why is it like that? Why are women attracted more by status? >> Uh so because for most of human history like if you look at kind of evolutionary evolutionarily speaking um most of human history we lived in small huntergatherer tribes. And and a hunter gatherer tribe um it's basically is basically women because women are the ones that get pregnant.
(42:49) When you're pregnant, that's nine months where you're very vulnerable physically. Um, you need to be protected. Um, you could get sick, you could die, the child birth is very difficult. And then once you have the baby, that's another 2 to 3 years of intense vulnerability. Um, the baby is extremely vulnerable.
(43:07) The mother needs to always be taking care of it. So, it makes sense that women evolved to become attracted to men who appear to be very reliable, very resourceful. like is he gonna show up and is he gonna bring food home? Like that's kind of the long and short of it. Um and so that's the evolutionary pressure on female attraction.
(43:30) Men on the other hand, the evolutionary pressure is on uh is basically on on more personal fitness. Like is she is she capable of being a mother? Is she gonna be a good mother? Is she gonna be caring? Is she gonna be sweet? Is she like nurturing? Um is she uh you know empathetic? Um and so it's you you get male and female attraction skew in these two different directions.
(43:58) It doesn't mean that every man is this way and every woman is this way. Obviously there's exceptions and and certain men and women behave very differently. But as in general that's why you you kind of get these two different styles of attraction. Do you feel if women are just driven towards let's say more status why is it like that that more women are attracted towards really toxic men why more women they their fertility peaks there was a study in I think university of Dirham or something I I can't exactly remember but
(44:34) >> that most women's fertility peaks when they when they see dark tri traits in in men >> like they in the short term they're more attracted towards narcissists, psychopaths like all of this stuff. >> Yeah. >> Do you think men like they are more biologically driven or like attracted towards toxic men >> or is that it has to do something with evolution? And >> I I I think it combination of explanations here.
(45:06) So the women aren't just attracted to status, they're attracted to the potential of status. So this is why you see a lot of women will be attracted to a man who kind of has nothing going on in his life, but if he got his [ __ ] together, could potentially have a lot going on in his life. Like women are very drawn to that.
(45:28) They're they kind of have this sense of like, well, if I can just help him figure it out, he's going to go places, right? So, women are also very attracted to men with great potential. And I would argue that uh dark triad traits are false signifiers of potential. Right? If you think about what is a narcissist, what's a psychopath, uh what's a very mchavelian person, they're very confident. They're very self- assured.
(45:54) They're probably very well spoken. um they probably don't doubt themselves very much and they probably have no problem lying and telling you all the things you want to hear. So it is a it is a short-term false signal of a great future status >> and and I think what happens is a lot of women and this is this has been my observation at least um you know a lot of women will end up in a relationship with a toxic man earlier in their life.
(46:28) Maybe this isn't an argument for not not having arranged marriage. Uh a lot of women will end up or having more divorce rather. Um, a lot of women will end up in a relationship with a very toxic man early when they're young and they they they learn that mistake. They're like, "Okay, he could fake it. I need to like stick around long enough to make sure he's not faking it >> or or learn how to read the signals that he's actually a dark triad type guy.
(46:54) " >> Um, and then in their second serious relationship, they figure it out. They're like, "Okay, I'm not going to fall for that again." So you're saying they don't fall for toxic men, they fall for fake confidence, >> basically. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's I mean, if you if you look at what uh you know what narcissism really is, it is it is fake confidence.
(47:20) It is it's a essentially a man who feels so bad about himself that he needs to constantly lie to himself about how great he is. And then the side effect of that line is that he appears confident to people around him. You know, it's one of the things I I I had a a social media post that went viral maybe a year or two ago.
(47:45) Um I said that uh narcissists appear confident to people who are not confident. It's once you're confident, you can see through the narcissist and you're like, "Oh, that guy's faking it." But if you you yourself are not confident, you are doubting yourself all the time and um you're never self- assured and you come across a narcissist, you're going to mistake it for confidence because it's on the exterior on the surface it's the same behavior, but the underlying intentions and motivations are completely different.
(48:10) >> But how do you differentiate then the person with fake confidence versus real confidence? >> It's actually very easy. Tell them no. >> What do you mean by that? >> Disagree with them. Tell them no. Tell them they're wrong. A narcissist is not going to tolerate it. They're going to belittle you.
(48:27) They're going to argue with you. They're going to tell you you're stupid. They're going to refuse. A confident person will be like, "Oh, okay. Um, we disagree. Let's talk about it." A confident person will change their mind. A confident person will admit they're wrong. A confident person will um will thank you for pointing out something they missed.
(48:47) A narcissist won't do any of those things. Doesn't it also mean like can't it be a case where a confident person is also just very stubborn about their opinions and views and they're really they're really confident. If you in fact even if you look at really great leaders >> Mhm. Though there's an argument most of them are narcissist but few of them if they are not >> they're very stubborn about the way things are.
(49:21) >> Mhm. >> And they are really confident and there's enough stack of proof that which is why they're getting confidence from. >> Sure. >> So they're not going to take a no for an answer. >> Well it depends what you're challenging them on. You know like if you're going to challenge Steve Jobs on, you know, >> design.
(49:38) >> Yeah. Yeah. like like device design. Yeah, you're probably going to he's not probably not going to listen to you. Um but I imagine if Steve Jobs wife challenged him on raising their daughter, >> you know, I would hope at least that he would be receptive and be like, "Oh, maybe you have a point." Um it's I will say this, like genuinely confident people will not feel a need to belittle you.
(50:06) >> Uh they won't feel a need to control you. Right. A narcissist needs to control the people around them because it's it's they can't accept themselves. >> Yeah. >> You know, the their their self-image being challenged or destroyed. So, they have to control the people around them to maintain their self-image.
(50:27) >> A a confident person does feels no need to control you. It's like, "Oh, we disagree. We disagree about the Indian article." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Cool. Yeah, we do. >> You know what's funny though? I was thinking about this when you when we were talking about the community and the family stuff >> and maybe this is probably something I missed >> cuz I when I wrote it, I really thought I was being more balanced.
(50:55) >> Mhm. And I think the thing that I was being very well balanced because the things in that article and my memories from that trip that are like very very positive had to do with I was absolutely blown away by the level of hospitality and friendliness of the Indians that I met.
(51:17) like the some of the people that I met and stayed with and and traveled with were like so much kinder than almost anywhere else I had ever traveled. But it's funny like I just it just occurred to me because I wrote that in that I wrote that into the article but as an Indian you probably read that and you're like well of course like that's normal to you.
(51:36) So it probably didn't stand out as a positive thing. It's just like, oh yeah, this Indian guy was being a normal Indian guy. And whereas for an American, you're like, wow, he did that for you? That's amazing. But thank you for emphasizing on that. Now, >> but yeah, it's it >> the hospitality and friendliness >> and believing that guest is God.
(52:00) >> Yeah. >> It comes so natural that >> we think like it's not even like it's not even a big deal. Yeah. >> Like like why are you even pointing out this thing? >> Yeah. >> Like this is what you're supposed to do. >> That that it's funny that just occurred to me now. Uh I remember in that article because I wrote about the first place I stayed in New Delhi the the guy the manager of the hostel coo like personally cooked a dinner for me like my fourth or fifth night there.
(52:33) personally cooked it for me and I was so shocked. I like I was like this has never happened in my entire life. I was like, "Holy crap." Like but yeah, it's funny cuz yeah, to an American that's incredible. >> Uh but to to cooking dinner for you is the most normal thing you can see in India.
(52:57) Like it's not even >> if he wouldn't have cooked dinner for you, I would be surprised. >> That's so funny. That's really funny. >> That's the thing. But coming back to a conversation of >> men and women. >> Yeah. >> When women have learned their lesson early on in their life that >> toxic men and this confidence is just a mask for the real narcissistic personality or just like this person is bad for them.
(53:20) >> Yeah. >> Why do they keep falling for it again? >> Well, I think there's two types of women. So there are there are the women who learn from the mistake and then I think the women who don't. And my guess is the there's two reasons that they don't learn from it. The first one is is that they've probably part of it is they've never been around a male with a healthy level of confidence.
(53:49) Like they've probably only been around men, unconfident or narcissistic men. So they think it's normal. They think every man is like this. And then I think the second thing, and this is the unfortunate thing, is that a toxic relationship is very exciting. Unfortunately, it's very dramatic. The emotional highs are very high. The emotional lows are very low.
(54:12) And there's a certain addictiveness to it. And and it's you feel when you're in the middle of it, you feel so alive, right? Even even when this person is treating you like crap, even when you're miserable half the days, the other half the days you're so in love and ex like excited and emotional that you you just kind of ride this roller coaster up and down.
(54:38) And and I think like there's something intoxicating about that. Like there the same way um people get hooked on alcohol or a drug, I I think I think people can get hooked on toxic relationships. they can become addicted to them. And so I think women or anybody because men do this too, but women who keep falling for toxic men over and over again, part of it is that they've just never really been exposed to a a healthy man.
(55:06) But part of it too is that there's they're pro there's probably some sort of addictive quality going on. Like it's it's that they they're having trouble pulling them away themselves away from it. They get somewhat dependent on that highs and lows. >> Yeah. >> Does it happen often? >> I think so. I mean, I I see it in my line of work.
(55:30) I see it all the time. I see it with men, too. Men, it looks different with men, though. Like it's it with men it's more men will will subject themselves to like horrible treatment. Not because the woman's well usually she is narcissist but men will subject themselves to it usually because it's she's beautiful, the sex is great, you know, he feels really admired, you know, by having such a beautiful woman with him.
(56:06) Um but also like men also get addicted to that roller coaster, right? Of just every day is either a disaster or the best day on earth and you ride that roller coaster up and down and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, you said something earlier. Do you think that can also be the reason for this? You said a lot of underconfident and really people with low self-esteem find this confidence and they're attracted towards it.
(56:35) M so underconident people are attracted towards toxic and narcissistic men somewhat you said I'm just paraphrasing it >> do you think it can also be a reason that people or like women or men keep falling for toxic people because they love some sort of victimization they have this some kind of victimized mindset they get addicted to just being the victim they love this identity about themselves subconsciously >> I think there I think there are definitely people who do fall into that.
(57:04) There's something a little bit like sometimes it feels empowering, you know, to feel like you're a victim, as paradoxical as that is. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm I'm sure it happens. >> And do you feel that we're designed in such a way that we love chaos? Our brain loves chaos. And that's why most relationships are failing today.
(57:27) >> I feel like the ones we hear about are failing. That's the funny thing is like a healthy relationship is often very boring, right? You don't it doesn't it's not going to make the news. You know, it's a a happy couple is just like quietly reading a book together, whereas an unhappy couple is like throwing the dishes and like slamming doors and screaming at each other.
(57:51) So, it's um um I do think some people I don't I don't think it's that some people like chaos. I think it's that some people are their their internal life is already emotionally chaotic and so that manifests itself in their relationships. So, but more people are not driven towards excitement and chaos and all like nice things and that's a roller coaster.
(58:25) Is it not like that? >> More people I mean some people if the question is do I think things are getting worse? I I don't know that they are. Um what I'm noticing or and what the at least here in the US what the statistics are suggesting is that fewer people are getting into relationships but the ones that are getting into are seem to be healthier and more sustainable.
(58:52) Um so I think a lot of that is just people are getting educated and understanding what's good for them and what's bad for them. That's the good news. The bad news is is just that fewer people are getting married, >> they're getting married later. Um they're dating less. U so it's it's it's a mixed story. >> But the question was more people who are failing out of like who who fa who have failed relationships.
(59:18) >> Mhm. >> Do you think their relationship is failing because they chase excitement and they're not okay with the boring life? I think I don't know how it is in Indian culture but I think a mistake that a lot of people make in western culture is they mistake the excitement for romance. They think romance has to be exciting and dramatic.
(59:45) And the truth is is that a lot romance doesn't it can be actually be very peaceful. It can be calm. It can be quiet. It can be boring. Um and and so I think a lot of people again people who grow up without you know maybe their their parents weren't very functional so they never had good role models. Um you know the the people that they've dated when they were young were not healthy people the relationships were toxic they grow up with this idea that it's just like romance has to be this this roller coaster of emotions all the time. I'm sure movies, TV doesn't help
(1:00:23) either. >> Um, it's I know for me personally, like I had this very Disney idea of romance and what a relationship was until I was probably in my early 20s. Uh, it was just very naive. It's It's not realistic. It's not like that at all. >> But wait, explain me boring romance and exciting romance? What do you mean by both of them? Um there is there is something uh very romantic like if you think about like a romance movie, right? It there there's usually something a very dramatic action.
(1:01:09) There's a lot of tension. There's conflict and that that's what generates the intense feeling of closeness between the two people. But you don't have to have all this tension and conflict to generate a sense of closeness. You can just be intensely present with each other. And it's not a sexy thing. It's not an exciting thing.
(1:01:31) Like nobody's going to nobody's going to go viral being like, "Hey, sit quietly and read a book together on a Saturday and feel romance." It but it it is there. And if you do if you do build that relationship with somebody and have that that trust and that intimacy and just that simple pleasure of being in each other's presence, you can experience it.
(1:01:52) And it it's crazy because I I literally didn't experience it until I was probably 30, you know, like all of my young relationships were very >> roller coaster. >> Yeah. Chaotic, crazy drama, you know. Uh, and then I met my wife at 28 and and once we had been together for a few years, I I we start I started having this experience for the first time in my life where it's just like I could literally just be sitting in the same room with her and feel like an intense connection and love for her.
(1:02:24) And I remember just being like, "Wow, this is possible." Like like we don't have to scream at each other to feel this. Who knew? Do you think more women like vulnerable partnersh >> who are in touch with emotions and try to build their intimate relationship or the ones who show dominance? >> I don't think I think I don't think those are exclusive.
(1:02:51) Um this is one thing I talk about in my my dating book um from ages ago. >> Models. >> Models. Yeah. So most men associate vulnerability with weakness. They associate vulnerability with um you know crying and complaining and talking about how awful things are. That is one form of vulnerability.
(1:03:16) But that's not that's not all of vulnerability. Ver if you think about it, it's like what is emotional vulnerability? Emotional vulnerability is simply opening yourself up to being rejected in some way. And so there are very masculine and dominant ways to make yourself vulnerable, right? If you think about uh going to war, >> that's a form of vulnerability.
(1:03:39) If you think about getting in a boxing ring to fight, that's a form of vulnerability. Um it's anytime you put yourself in a situation where you could be embarrassed, experience failure, be ridiculed, um and be rejected, it's a form of vulnerability. So there's you can still be vulnerable as a man without being all weepy and sad and emotional.
(1:04:03) And I think for a lot of for me this was a a very profound realization. And it it really changed my relationships deeply when I realized that I can express my emotions and still take responsibility for them and own them and be okay if that rejection comes. Right? So, I can go to my wife and say, "Hey, I've been really upset lately and this is why.
(1:04:31) Um, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do this anymore." That's a form of vulnerability. And in no way am I being passive or weak or like, you know, being weepy or complaining or whatever. It's in and I guarantee it's not like she's not going to lose any attraction for me. like it's you can state what you can state the things that you feel and the things that you want in a way that's vulnerable and also um masculine and dominant.
(1:05:04) So, um it's I think that's a key thing that men miss and and u and I think it's extremely important because when men don't express what they think and feel and they when they don't express what they like and don't like, women have no idea and >> and they they're either left to just guess or they assume you don't care. Yeah.
(1:05:25) >> And either way, like it's not going to go well, right? Whereas if you can actually express how you feel and and what you think and what you want and do it in a way from a place of confidence of like being very self assured, it's incredibly attractive. >> That's a beautiful way to explain vulnerability. I like it.
(1:05:42) >> Yeah. >> You know, but I also believe on a similar line that what women really love is not either or. >> It's not dominance or vulnerability. Yeah, >> I think they love contextual competence. M >> they love when a man who is standing up and it's strong and shows dominance when it's needed for the outside world so that she can feel more protected and safe and she can rely on this person and at the same time otherwise can be vulnerable in touch with his emotions and is open to share certain things and weak emotions at the same time so that
(1:06:23) she feel that he's he's connecting with me on a deeper level and there's enough intimacy. >> Yeah. So men who do both and contextually just change their certain projection of let's say dominance or vulnerability I think they are the most attractive ones and that's what women find really good. >> Yeah. >> Most people get confused because in the temporary world dominance gets rewarded but for a long-term relationship vulnerability is equally important.
(1:06:52) >> I agree 100%. I think that's a great way of putting it. And I would agree with you too that the external dominance, I think that piece has to come first. Like she needs to feel safe with you first for her to be willing to accept you being weak in moments. Yeah. >> You know, there's there's a thing on the internet and in reality as well that >> it's such a funny sentence.
(1:07:19) Like I just I just corrected myself because most people believe in this that nice guys finish last, >> right? What do you think? What's one brutal truth nice guys need to hear that just being nice is not enough. Uh, I think the brutal truth that that nice guys need to hear being a a nice guy is not actually nice because a nice guy is usually being nice with conditions.
(1:07:52) He's being nice because he thinks it's going to get him something. He's being nice because he thinks that if he says and does the right things for the women around him that he'll finally get the affection and love that he craves. But the thing is is like women women are not dumb. They sense this. They can smell it. And so they are they're immediately turned off by it.
(1:08:15) And it's generally it's like every guy who complains about, oh, I'm so nice. I do all these things for women and none of them appreciate me. It's like, no, you're not doing them. You're not doing those things for the women. You're doing them you're doing those things to get something. And that's not nice. It's manipulative. I used to always tell uh my my guy clients, I used to always say, "Don't be a nice guy, be a good guy.
(1:08:37) " And sometimes being a good guy means being saying things that people don't like hearing, right? And I think not just women, but people respect that, right? If you're willing to say something that is that other people that they don't like hearing, but they know you're being honest, they know it's the truth, they know you believe in it, >> and they know that you're okay disagreeing.
(1:09:01) Like that is way more attractive than saying all the nice things and doing all the nice things. Yeah. I also feel most of the people who rely on this thing that nice guys finish last, >> they're trying to hide their incompetency in some way. >> And what I mean by this is >> if you're a nice guy >> Mhm. >> with low status, low value as a man, low competency, and desperate, then you're a loser. Accept it.
(1:09:28) >> Yeah. Yeah, like when you are a person of high value and you've worked on yourself a lot and you're there's enough proof for yourself and for the world that you are of some value and then you're nice >> then I don't think you finish last. >> Yeah, >> you finish last when you're an absolute loser. >> And what I mean by loser is >> you're not working on yourself.
(1:09:50) You're just desperate. You're not >> not on your body, not on your work, not on your purpose, not on uh your social skills. You're just being like, "Hey, I'm a nice guy." Yeah. But with low value and low status. And that's why most of the time they face trouble and then they try to make up for all of it. >> Yeah.
(1:10:12) Yeah. I I feel like a lot of a lot of men who desperately crave the approval of women, they do it because they haven't invested in themselves. Like they're covering up the lack that they feel for themselves. M >> whereas it's and I used to run into this with clients too. I used to tell I'd be like dude just get a life like >> you work on yourself.
(1:10:32) >> Yeah. Like dude just get a decent job and like I don't know like an apartment and like you're probably halfway there. But it's like you have literally nothing going on in your life right now. So of course she's not going to be attracted to you. >> It's it's um >> here here's a follow-up question to that.
(1:10:51) A lot of men who are high value and they've achieved something professionally >> even they are not able to to get nice partner. >> Mhm. >> Why? >> I think >> high achievers >> right I think then it's so in my dating book I I break it down into three different categories. Um so there's uh basically lifestyle having your life and your identity together.
(1:11:16) There is communication skills and then there's taking action and like all three of those things are necessary but none of them are sufficient by themselves. So what you just described guy has a great career you know let's say he's a doctor or um a really successful lawyer or something works all the time um but he's never taken action.
(1:11:37) He's never like actually put in the time to date women or go meet women. And when he does meet them he has no idea how to talk to them. He's completely awkward. He doesn't know how to say what he feels or what he wants. Uh so of course he gets no results. Similarly, you you get these guys who take tons of action but they have no idea.
(1:11:57) This is the classic pickup artist is like tons and tons of action going out meeting women all the time but horrible communication skills and no life, >> right? So it's like that's not going to get you very far. You need you need all three. You need like you need to have a strong identity yourself. You need to have worked on yourself.
(1:12:13) feel good about yourself. Then you need to know how to communicate that life to somebody like this is who I am. This is what I believe in. This is what I care about. This is what I like. This is what I don't like. And then you need to actually like go out and >> do something. You can't just sit around and hope that women magically notice how amazing you are.
(1:12:31) You have to go present yourself. >> Do you think that a lot of people, a lot of women have figured out that a lot of men are not good with this triangle? >> I think women are very aware. Yeah. And because of that they have started uh they've started playing this game way better. >> And what I mean by this is a lot of women have understood that their performance of desiraability will help them monetize a lot >> without even actually putting in the effort to go out on date and do certain things.
(1:13:07) And that's why they're playing this game better. If I if I want you if you want me to elaborate then think about let's say only fans >> right if you look at only fans it has made women a potential commodity. >> Mhm. >> And a lot of men a potential customer. >> Mhm. >> And a lot of women have understood that and now everybody's just performing.
(1:13:31) >> I mean it it formalizes those transactional relationships we were talking about before. Um, it's I don't think it's like I think that only fans and men who are addicted to porn, it's a it's a case of a a very noticeable minority of each, right? So, it seems like tons and tons of women are on Only Fans and tons and tons of men are are on porn, like watching porn all day, but it's it's probably just a very noticeable minority of of each.
(1:14:08) >> Isn't it growing like day by day, year on year or like a lot by percentages? I don't have stats for it. >> Yeah. >> But I've heard that the number is going crazy because there billions of dollars getting transacted there. So, minority won't be able to drive that amount of transaction.
(1:14:24) I mean if you think about like even let's say okay if there's billions of dollars let's say each each person is spending each guy is spending a couple hundred dollars that's what a a million men worldwide few couple million few million men like out of eight four billion men in the world you know a few million are are spending that much money on only fans so like >> that's not like a lot >> yeah it sounds like a lot but then proportionally like this is a this it's Funny you made the you you said the thing about the internet and real life
(1:14:54) earlier. Like I actually think that's a really important thing because I I notice this all the time too where like I'll spend I'll spend like a bunch of time on on on Instagram and X and I'll start getting like really upset or or thinking about like the world is a certain way and then I'll go spend a weekend with my friends or like go back home to to Texas and see my family and I'm like oh everybody's normal.
(1:15:23) But don't you think that might be a minority? >> I don't think so. >> There are like about more than 300 million registered users on only fan >> and more than 3.2 million content creators. >> Okay. On only Only Fans. Only only Only Fans. >> That's number. Yeah. >> It's like a huge number and more and more people are falling for this because >> here's what I feel.
(1:15:46) more women and men both in their own ways >> have figured out that if they just perform certain aspects of desiraability >> then they're going to get desire they're going to be desired. >> Mhm. >> Uh women a lot of women do this by showing off their sexuality. A lot of men do that by showing off their toys or like watches and cars and they feel it makes them high status and more women actually would chase them.
(1:16:09) >> Sure. >> And they're not working internally. They're not working on themselves. Yeah, >> they're just working on showing off that new watch. >> Maybe that's making them broke, but who cares? >> Yeah. >> And same goes with women. They're just working on maybe not working on their internal self. >> Yeah. >> They figured out that this gets them independence or couple of bucks.
(1:16:30) So, they're showing off their sexuality and making and more and more people like this number is growing. >> I would like to point out though, okay, let me play devil's advocate here. >> Yeah. >> I would like to point out that this isn't like on Yes. If you look at Only Fans in a vacuum, okay, it's growing massive numbers.
(1:16:51) But if you, and again, I don't know any of the statistics behind this, but I'm just going to make assumptions. If you look at say the the worldwide sex working market, right, prostitution, strip clubs, whatever, and you look at how many men frequented those, how many women worked in those industries, I imagine that that overall number is probably not growing dramatically.
(1:17:18) Like you're probably just the same way Spotify replaced buying CDs >> or Netflix replaced going to the movie theater, uh, Only Fans is replacing going to the brothel for a lot of men. >> Really? >> Do you disagree? >> I don't know. I because my assumption would be that in terms of percentage of population let's just talk about that that if 100 out of 100 people five are going to strip clubs and brothel and all stuff like that >> I think out of 100 and this is just assumption >> maybe 10 are going online >> okay
(1:18:01) >> so then the percentage has grown because it's more convenient it's easier it's less effort it's like cheap dopamine And dopamine which comes without reward so it gets more addictive. >> Yeah. >> And then it's just society is valuing some some sort of signal so they do it more and more people fall into it.
(1:18:22) So my problem is not that are there enough people today. >> Yeah. >> Which is a problem but the bigger problem is more people are getting lured toward this world. >> Yeah. >> And forget just one platform. It's happening across all social media platforms where more men are showing off certain things and more women are showing off certain things without actually working on internally something.
(1:18:45) >> I look I agree with you. >> I agree with you. I think it's um the I guess the only thing I'm I'm nitpicking at is the extent of the problem. I I personally think that like look the the the algorithms reward bad behavior and the so bad behavior gets broadcast more >> like it's it's like the point I made earlier like a healthy relationship is boring and you never hear about it because it's boring but every bad relationship is very exciting and very interesting and so people gossip about it all the time so it feels like
(1:19:27) everybody's relationship is bad And I think the internet has just created that dynamic for everything around the world. It's like it feels like everything is always going wrong because that's what gets broadcasted. That's what people click on. That's what people scroll and watch.
(1:19:49) And and so you get this this effect where like the most extreme 1% of the population is broadcast to the other 99% and then the 99% starts believing that that 1% is normal >> and when really it's just this loud minority >> fair. Yeah. >> And because that minority is loud >> Yeah. >> that one becomes two, two becomes three and three becomes four.
(1:20:11) And that's potentially >> like if more people are going to believe that impression management in some way is way more important than working on their identity, it's going to be problematic. Do you think people are people are moving towards that? More people care about how they appear in the world. >> It can be either looks for a lot of women or like it can be power and wealth for a lot of men.
(1:20:34) >> Yes. >> Interesting. There might be a cultural thing here. This is actually interesting because I agree with you. I agree with everything you're saying 100%. But I just I don't feel like it's a huge problem. Like there are abs for some people. Yes, absolutely. Like there there's and and I come across them periodically >> that you know you go to their Instagram account and you're just like o okay I see I see what's happening.
(1:21:03) Um but I to me it's not it's not a pervasive thing. And it it is something that you see occasionally, but like I'm just kind of like whatever. And I feel like most of at least my friends or the people that I hang out with, like we're kind of aware of the game now. >> Yeah. >> You know, so it's like people know when you're just kind of bullshitting on social media or when you're like kind of posting fake stuff.
(1:21:33) Um, and and I guess we like I feel like maybe my generation and younger like they don't take it as seriously. But that said, like I in in Western culture there's a there's a very uh there's a very awkward relationship with showing off yourself or showing off wealth. Like it's it's seen sometimes it's seen in bad taste.
(1:22:01) Like if I like if I created an Instagram reel today bragging about how much money I made, um my audience would [ __ ] hate it. >> Yeah, mine would too. >> Okay. Okay. So I I So I don't know. Maybe maybe it's more um >> I don't think it's western culture versus eastern because I believe there are more Western influencers who show off than eastern influencers.
(1:22:25) interesting >> like look at it like the biggest influencers who have built their entire cult >> and following just on show off. >> Yeah. >> You can name it like there's Andrew Tate, there's Dan Bilzerian, there's the one you named like you can just go on. >> Yeah. >> And they show off way more cars like what's your what's the color of your Bugatti became a thing.
(1:22:46) How many girls do you have became a thing? Yachts and the money and >> the watches and like this is all European and American. It's just getting shoved down all around the world. >> So it's I don't think it's it's about in the west world people look down on them. >> I think few people look down on them maybe. Or maybe just Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
(1:23:10) Just people who like maybe more people look down on them but they don't talk about it online. >> Yeah, maybe. So, um, it's interesting you brought up Dan Bill Bilzerian and Andrew Tate because I have yet to meet a single person in real life who likes those guys. Like, and I I've actually wondered for a long time.
(1:23:29) I'm like, who follows these guys? Like, I'm like, where do the this guy has like 20 million follow like who is following this guy? Like, I don't understand who where do these people come from? Uh, so yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe you're right. Uh but it is it is a very good point. Um I don't know I I try not to um I and maybe I'm naive but I I try not to overindex on like what's happening on social media.
(1:24:02) I I just I feel like it's it's an alternate universe. It's >> you're you're hearing most of the time, maybe not all the time, most of the time, you're hearing a very loud minority and I think most people are saying and they're like more and more and there's recent data showing this, more and more people are just turning off their phones like they're just not even logging on anymore.
(1:24:26) So, um, >> fair it can be true and I hope this is true. >> Yeah. I hope that more people are sane than people who are loud and following these kind of people. >> Yeah. >> Right. And I don't have any stat statistical data either. >> I have enough anecdotal evidence >> around men specifically younger men under 30. >> Yeah.
(1:24:47) >> Who have spoken to >> very briefly time and again all around the world. And more people are liking this kind of approach than they like probably my approach or your approach. >> Yeah. >> And it's just it's it's worrying. So you tell me you you read >> you read human behavior. You like all of this, right? >> And you've been through the game as well.
(1:25:10) >> So >> your audience would hate it if you become a showoff and you become that kind of person, right? >> Extra alpha and then abusing and being extremely toxic. So your audience and my audience let's think they are the minority at this point >> because they are the ones which we name their following their following is much bigger and larger than us.
(1:25:30) >> Why do people follow them? Why all of a sudden so many men are agreeing with these kind of opinions they are sharing reposting liking commenting >> because not even if some of it is manufactured I don't think all of it is manufactured. It's definitely not all manufactured, but I don't know.
(1:25:53) I feel like some of it's got to be like like the Have you ever like hate followed somebody? >> No, I would love to. I didn't know I haven't. Um, but I don't know. Like like for for example, like I remember I I I followed Dan Bills this is years ago. I followed Dan Bilzerian for a brief period and it was mostly just to be like how like just to be disgusted just to see what he was going to do next.
(1:26:26) Like I do think there's there's something in human nature that we are mesmerized by the things that we find find gross and distasteful. And um and maybe again maybe I'm being naive. Maybe I'm like completely out to lunch. Uh thinking that like a large percentage of Andrew Tate's following or Dan Bilzerian's following um is just like finds it detestable but is also just kind of like wow look at this guy.
(1:26:54) Um but yeah, I don't know. I I will also say you and I like people with people who are respectful and respectable um we have a lot more competition, right? because there's a lot of podcasts that people can listen to with somebody who's like not telling them uh to go spend all their money on a Lamborghini or whatever.
(1:27:21) Um whereas like there's really only a couple Andrew Tates. >> What do you think? Like what's your wildest assumption? Why would people follow them? >> Like the people who genuinely >> follow and look up to them. >> Yeah. >> I I think it's I think it's it's deep insecurity. I think it's a very >> it's probably young men with a very deep insecurity and who um are so desperate for to feel status and empowerment that they they are basically right off every ethical guideline that they would normally ascribe to.
(1:28:02) Um, that's the only explanation I can think of is that they're so like wounded and hurt that they are that they they need to vicariously live through one of these guys to feel empowered. I also think there's probably a large percentage of of dark triad people who see >> somebody like Tate as like a role model, right? So, if you're a little bit of a sociopath, you're probably going to be very impressed by a public so sociopath.
(1:28:30) who like shamelessly lives that way. >> You know, here's my guess. I can be wrong. >> Mhm. >> I feel a lot of people follow them because as men, we've been taught since the beginning that you'll be respected when you achieve something. >> You'll be respected when you have a great body.
(1:28:50) You'll be respected when you have a great car or a great house or you'll be successful in your career. And when you have those socially tangible things to to show off or like just which are like visibly seen. >> Yeah. >> So since the beginning since childhood you've been told that and nobody wants to hear about your emotions or what you're going through or your problems or the chaos or the depression, loneliness or whatever the complaints that you have. Nobody wants to listen about that.
(1:29:19) >> Mhm. So you have been just taught that and majority men are not able to achieve that very early on in their life. >> So the men who have not achieved who are like probably under 35ish who have not discovered themselves. >> Yeah. >> And also have not achieved anything significant in their career because it's just too early on for them.
(1:29:44) They find it interesting to follow these guys because they all of a sudden feel like, oh, somebody's talking about our problems >> and they want to follow this role model >> who has gotten it all probably a good body and like a lot of girls and like cars and stuff like that and is vocally talking about the problems which men go through early on.
(1:30:07) So they feel like finally we have someone to look up to. We have finally somebody who gets us. So now they're like they are they're confused by looking at their things and just following someone blindly because they feel like somebody gets us. I feel like it has to be more than that. I I would take everything you just said. I think that's probably true.
(1:30:31) But I think that's not sufficient because what you just described, I think, is what the majority of young men experience and and yeah, the majority of young men are frustrated at some point. I was when I was young. I'm sure you were as well. And you do look for role models, but let's let's let's stick with Andrew Tate because honestly, Dan Bilzerian's kind of an idiot and all of his content was fake.
(1:30:59) though it's let's stick with Andrew Tate because I actually think Tate's the more interesting example too because Bill Xerion like >> Bill Xerion didn't have no thoughts. He had no original thought. He wasn't trying to teach you anything. He wasn't trying to convince you of anything. He just wanted you to be jealous of like his yacht and the girls on it.
(1:31:18) And whereas Tate is actually he has a message and he he has a purpose. uh and and that clearly that message is appealing to a lot of young men that the message is so it's very antisocial. It's very destructive and I don't think you come to a like that message is not going to appeal to you unless there's something you've experienced that like makes you extremely angry.
(1:31:46) You've been hurt in some way. You feel like you've been cheated in some way. Um, it it's, you know, you could have had your heart broken. You could have had somebody stole something from you. Maybe you were wrongly accused of something at your job and you're, you lost your career. Like something went wrong and because that his message is only going to make sense to somebody who's in a lot of pain and needs to make sense of that pain.
(1:32:13) I think >> like I don't think anybody who's just like has a healthy level of frustration is is going to listen to some of the stuff he says and be like, "Yeah, you know, like it just it's too extreme. It's like way too dark." Um, that would be that's my sense like I I don't see how a guy appeals I don't see how a guy like that appeals to anybody who is uh is like stable or healthy in any any way.
(1:32:46) I believe this is like they're playing on sociology like social psychology in some way. >> Mhm. The way to get the easiest like the most dumbed down explanation of building a cult blindlike following is >> you list down number of problems which majority is going through or maybe minority is going through like number of people. >> You label it and make it that you're the victim >> and then you give a reason that this is why you're victim.
(1:33:14) So you make that reason is an enemy. >> Yeah. >> So this is what these guys did. They named number of insecurities, mastered as victim and then made women the enemy. >> Y >> so just like okay one gender is enemy. >> Y >> all the problem that you're going through is because of this enemy. >> Yeah. >> So then now just there's no solution.
(1:33:36) There's nothing. You just [ __ ] talk and you talk and you talk and that's how you build blind following and that's what these guys are doing really well. >> Yeah it makes sense to me. Do you think a lot of people use it to their advantage? This psychology >> the that >> the victim and enemy. >> Oh yeah. I mean just look at politics.
(1:33:56) That's that's like half of politics. >> I mean it here. It definitely is here in the US. I assume it is in India as well. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah. I mean nothing nothing binds people together more than a common enemy. Like I think that's just human nature. Yeah. >> And it it and that evolved for a very good reason, but I I think it can also be abused for power very easily.
(1:34:22) >> True. You know, one common enemy for men is not being able to express. >> Mhm. >> That should be the real enemy. Like that is something we all need to fight, come together because >> men account for 79% of suicides. >> Y >> one out of five men say that they're lonely. They and they're depressed because of loneliness in some sort of way, maybe minor or like like a strong depression.
(1:34:50) >> Yeah. >> And even doctors in some countries are more likely to tell man to man up than to actually go to therapy. Yeah. >> Right. In in in some places, not all. >> Right. >> How do people deal with this? Yeah. >> Like how do men break this whole thing? How do they understand male pain? And then like what do we do with this society? Like how do you how do you make it normal? You understand male pen male pain much better.
(1:35:26) >> You've gone through it yourself. You talk about it >> of course. >> And now your whole purpose is to actually get more men together to feel less of this pain. >> Yeah. I do think it it starts at a cultural level. >> Okay. >> And I I do think I actually think that the work that you and I and a lot of other podcasters, YouTubers, I I think it's very important that young men have somebody that they can look at and see and see like a healthy version of processing pain, expressing emotion, talking about feelings, talking about personal growth,
(1:36:04) like thinking about these subjects. Um, you know, I I definitely grew up in a in an environment where none of the the men around me were expressing these things or talking about these things. Uh, I had to learn it the hard way and go make a lot of mistakes and go to a lot of therapy um to kind of figure a lot of this out myself.
(1:36:28) And I think the the best thing we can do is just through our role in the culture, normalize it and make it, you know, make it so that the young men listening to this like feel like it's normal and okay to to think about these things and talk about these things. >> But why do you feel society they would rather see dead men than vulnerable ones? Why do they care? Because the number of suicides and deaths are just increasing and still people want a lot of people to just man up.
(1:37:05) Why do you think this? How did this become even a thing? >> Well, I think it was always the thing, right? Because historically the role of men and society was protector, provider, right? Like nobody wanted to hear about your feelings. It's like we're about to be invaded. Like I don't give a [ __ ] about your feelings. Five of our eight kids died.
(1:37:24) like I don't care about your feelings. >> Like that's most of human history. >> But now now it's not like the case. We still don't actually reward these men. >> No, I know. But it's it's I think there's just a lot of cultural inertia that is that has drifted through generations. Like if if I look at my my father's generation and my grandfather's generation uh like I remember my dad told me uh so like I grew up frustrated with my father for not emoting enough and telling me what he thought or felt enough or maybe showing appreciation for me enough. Um,
(1:38:04) but I remember talking to my dad once and he said that um that my grandfather didn't hug him until my dad was 50 years old. And I was like, "Holy [ __ ] that's that's like a whole another level of man up, right?" And and I can't even imagine what my great-grandfather was like, right? So, >> you would not know know the concept of hugging.
(1:38:33) >> Yeah. Yeah, it'd be like, "Get away from me. Stop touching me." Uh, so it's it's like every generation does work and makes progress, but it it's not, you know, we we're only aware of our generation's work and progress. And uh, and so it's easy to lose sight of like the long-term trajectory of everything.
(1:38:53) I do think it's getting better. I I just think it's it's also very confusing to be a man these days because on the one hand that classic role of protected provider, it's not relevant for most of us. Like I I imagine you're not protecting anybody on a day-to-day basis. I'm definitely not like life's pretty easy these days uh compared to 500 years ago.
(1:39:20) So, it's it's but it's confusing because ultimately like men are different than women and we do have different emotional needs and we do have different cultural expectations and so like it's hard to navigate and and really understand like what we should be doing. But I do think when you look at mental health, when you look at male psychology and when you look at just having good relationships, I mean another stat is that interestingly when when men get married, they become their happiness increases uh significantly more than women when they
(1:39:56) get married. And like most people don't know that. And and when men get divorced, their happiness decreases significantly more than women's happiness. Like it's good relationships are absolutely key to men's mental and emotional health. And if you don't build these skills, you're not going to have good relationships.
(1:40:17) And the and like it or not, the world has changed. Like Andrew Tate is living in medieval times essentially. And like he's like stuck in the 13th century. And it's it's we're not going back. Like it's the world is too different. It's the changes have already happened. So like we we need to adapt and find new ways to to doing things.
(1:40:43) >> But why do you think even men don't respect other men who are like always complaining and crying or maybe showing and expressing even not always? Yeah. >> Even sometimes when men are showing their emotions, >> most men don't even respect them. >> Yeah. they they shut them up and like, "Stop being a baby. Stop being a woman.
(1:41:02) Stop being all of that [ __ ] whatever." >> Well, it it's probably because they they haven't they haven't allowed themselves to feel those things. I don't know about you, but like I've noticed in my adult life, uh, when I when I meet men, like if I meet a man who's not very self-aware or not like aware of their own emotions or can't really express themselves, I find that I just kind of don't become friends with them. And it's not intentional.
(1:41:30) It's not like I hate them or don't like them or whatever. It's just like I don't know how to be friends with a guy like that. Like if all we're going to talk about is football and and beer, like >> I I get bored, right? Like at some point I want to know like what do you care about? What do you hope for? >> What are your goals? What are you working on right now? You know, and it's like if a guy can't go there, I find that I just don't become friends with him.
(1:42:01) Um, and so I I just find that I have naturally kind of ended up surrounded by men in my life who are interested in personal growth in interested in improving themselves, being emotionally healthy, um, who also struggle like I think all of us do with expressing our emotions but are at least working on it and trying and trying to have good relationships and trying to u do something great in the world.
(1:42:26) Um, so it's I think you can encourage men in your life. It's funny actually. I uh one of those guys that I I was talking about who like just emotionally kind of shut off who's a husband of one of my wife's best friends. And because his wife and my wife are like very close friends, I ended up hanging out with him a lot.
(1:42:50) And for like the first couple years, it was it was kind of hard. Like I would ask him personal questions and he would just kind of like stare at me like like not knowing what to say like it was a trick question or something and I'm like dude I just I just want to know like what your childhood was like you know like it's not rocket science.
(1:43:09) It's not crazy [ __ ] like I'm just like you know tell me something about yourself. Uh, and it was funny because it's like slowly he would like open up a little bit here, a little bit there, but then it's it's funny because uh they moved away for a couple years and and they just moved back like two or three months ago and so we've started hanging out with him again and I hung out with this guy and we had a great time together and as we're hanging out he like looked at me and he's like he's like, "Hey man, uh, you know, I started going to therapy
(1:43:43) last year." I was like, "Really?" And he's like, "It's like one of the best things I ever did in my life." And then we had this amazing conversation about like how he grew up, his his marriage, like all the stress from his work, and how he wasn't handling it well, how he like stopped smoking pot, like all I was completely different relationship, completely different friendship.
(1:44:06) So, I think there's like I think it's on men to try to positively influence each other and like assure each other like, "Hey, dude, it's all right." Like, >> I'm not going to laugh at you. >> I'm not I'm not going to like look down on you or whatever. Like, it's >> just be real. You know, >> you know, this is an exception and your world and you are also an exception in this whole thing.
(1:44:32) >> Mhm. >> Don't you think? In fact, don't you think like this is this is true. This is reality. Okay. Most men, they respect serial killers, warlords, these really gangster type of people and figures more than emotional men. Why do you think they do that? And there's enough proof. There's there are enough games, there are enough movies, there's enough uh people's liking.
(1:44:57) You don't even need data for it. You know it. I know. as some merit in respecting >> these like warlords and gangsters and stuff. >> Is it respect though? Why are they attracted to it? Let's just put it forget respect. >> I think that's a Yeah, I think that's a that's a different thing because like I love the Godfather and Scarface and Grand Theft Auto, right? Like it's I think it's what it is is so Freud had this uh Freud had this like amazing um concept called sublimation which is basically the desire to live vicariously through somebody else. You know it's
(1:45:39) like all the things that we are not we all the things we don't allow ourselves to experience we crave living it through somebody else. And I think this is partly why we love celebrities. We love music stars, but I think it's also why we love violent movies and, you know, movies about gangsters and warlords and and video video games where you're in war.
(1:46:03) Like there's a part of you that kind of craves that, but you've suppressed it and you don't allow yourself. Like obviously you're never going to act on it. But it's there's some sort of satisfaction on being able to like pretend for a few hours that you're like this violent warlord in in the middle of Los Angeles or whatever and you can do whatever you want.
(1:46:31) like there's something just very primitive and satisfying about it. But I don't think I don't think the vast like I don't think 99.9% of people I don't think anybody like mistakes that like I love the Godfather. I would never ever ever want to be the head of a mafia ever. >> Are you sure? >> Yeah. Yeah. No. No matter how >> many sure we can we can turn off the camera and then you can tell me reality.
(1:46:59) >> No matter how many times I watch it, I I I would not trade places with him. >> What's broken in male psychology? Why do we like this? There is there's no denying to it. We we enjoy that. >> Some people want to win, some people not want to win. But majority of us, even if you don't want to become, we want the bad guy to win in the movie.
(1:47:22) >> We want this there's there's something inside us which which likes a nonviolent behavior. >> Mhm. >> What's what's broken about male psychology that that puts us in this position? >> I don't think it's broken. I think it's I think it's there for a reason. Like I think it's like imagine if if you went to war and needed to defend your country.
(1:47:47) Like you need to be able to tap into that. It needs to be down there. Um obviously you don't want to live there 24/7, but like if somebody breaks into your house and is threatening your family, like you need to be able to tap into that. So I I do think it's there for a reason. I don't think it's necessarily broken or wrong.
(1:48:09) Um like we even like these days if you look at all around the world >> Mhm. >> we even promote and like certain leaders who depict these kind of personality traits. Look at the highest offices in the world. >> Yeah. Right. And look at the highest offices in certain religions in certain countries. We love these figures for some reason.
(1:48:33) Well, people people are drawn to a strong man leader, an authoritarian leader. I think for the same reason people are drawn to a narcissist, it's a there's a false comfort in their confidence. And the same just as people who get into a relationship with a narcissist find out very quickly that that that confidence is false and there's no absolutely no safety or security there, that it's actually more chaos.
(1:49:01) I think the same is true with an authoritarian leader. It's people opt into it because they're like, "Ah, stability, strength, security, and then you get on the other side of it and you're like, oh no, this is like twice as much chaos as there was before." >> I also believe because when social institutions are not rewarding non-violent behavior as much as they should, >> Mhm.
(1:49:27) more men would would want to be violent because the the movies that they see or the stories that they hear about, >> they hear about the perks and the grandios and the celebration for longer time of these men who have been violent. >> Mhm. >> Than their than their destruction and demise. >> Yeah. Because so if you look at the movies as well, the villain who you want to win, there's a whole story.
(1:49:55) >> Mhm. >> And they're winning for 90% of the movie. >> Yeah. >> 5 6% 10% they just died. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So you your brain is focusing on this behavior and you feel like >> in my life so social institutions and society has not rewarded me as much. >> I might rather choose that. Yeah. >> So I think it's incompetency for an entire society which have not rewarded cooperative behavior as much they should.
(1:50:22) >> Yeah. >> Do you think so? >> Well, it's Freud wrote about this in civilization and its discontents. He argued that social institutions are the check on our like primitive violent nature. Right? So it's it's it is those social institutions, those legal institutions, those uh those forms of government that like keep a check.
(1:50:51) They like they create incentives for us to behave well. And so as those institutions weaken, the incentives to behave well weaken as well. And Freud believed that that's where I like he wrote that book after World War II because he was so horrified with what happened across the planet and he felt like a need to explain it.
(1:51:16) And that was his explanation that it's like when when the institutions deteriorate to the point that they no longer hold the primitive impulses in check, you get a outburst of war and conflict. And then eventually the conflict gets so bad that people desperately invent new institutions to like tamp down and put everything in check again and then the cycle repeats a couple generations later.
(1:51:46) Do you do you feel the easier explanation is what you said before that most of us are insecure and we see these traits as like confident and secure and that's why we choose him. >> Mhm. >> Is that is that it in simple words? Because more men are insecure. They feel these mafia gang leaders are very secure and confident and like out there.
(1:52:11) Yeah, >> they would want to feel like that. It's a kind of feeling which is missing in their life. >> Yeah, I think it's it's a quick and easy solution, right? Like if you feel like you have no opportunities the conventional way, then well, why not try the unconventional way? M do do you also feel more more a like more and more you achieve in your life let's say where you are or like where most people are.
(1:52:42) >> Mhm. >> People who achieved a lot they are actually a lot more insecure because they try to overcompensate their insecurity >> with achieving constantly. >> Yeah. hasn't been the case with you. >> I think in the past, early in my career, I was motivated by a lot of insecurity. It's funny because like if you think about one of the things that I didn't anticipate before I had achieved a lot is that the more you achieve the more you have to lose. Like nobody tells you that.
(1:53:20) >> Like when you're at the bottom of the mountain, all you think you just think the top is going to be great. like it's just all the the rewards and benefits and everything, but then you get to the top of the mountain, you're like, "Oh, I could fall a long way." >> You get more paranoid. Yeah. >> So, I do think there's there is an aspect of that um that I didn't anticipate.
(1:53:43) Um, but I I do think it's Yeah, it's no secret that like a lot of incredibly successful people are motivated by this like very deep insecurity that they're not enough. Um, for me personally, like I think there was some of that early in my career. Um, I think I'm in a much more secure and stable place now, like the last 10 years.
(1:54:11) Um, one of the things that I just learned about myself is that I love I love achieving. Like it's just fun. Like I I love setting big ambitious goals and then going after them. Like it's it's even if I when I I'm very much in a place in my life like I don't have to do anything if I don't want to. But I realized I like it.
(1:54:36) It's like a It's like the best video game in the world, you know? is like just building amazing [ __ ] in the world and and putting it out there for people and seeing if they like it and trying to improve it. Like it's just it's fun. >> Do you think more most overachieving or most men who are overachievers are deeply insecure or they're deeply driven by purpose? Which one's more true? I imagine that there's a certain level that insecure people will get to.
(1:55:09) And because when you're motivated by insecurity, you're not really motivated by the thing itself. You're not motivated by the thing you're doing. Um so let's use an example of like uh let's say somebody becomes a lawyer to make a lot of money, but they hate being a lawyer, but they're very insecure.
(1:55:30) So they're like, I need a lot of money. I need to be a lawyer. From what I've observed is that people like that like they'll work really hard and become a really successful lawyer, but they eventually hit a certain point that they're like, I don't need to keep doing this and this didn't solve any of my problems. And so I just feel like insecurity burns out at a certain point.
(1:55:57) My my experience I is that generally and this actually really surprised me when I started meeting people who were incredibly successful like synth millionaires, billionaires, really famous people. I was actually surprised how many of them were actually motivated by a broader sense of purpose. Uh cuz I I expected the opposite.
(1:56:21) I expected to find insecurity at the top of the mountain and then like a lot of purpose kind of on its way down. And it was it was the flip. It was the opposite. What I found was a lot of moderately like somewhat rich people who are driven by insecurity and burned themselves out and were tired and just wish they could stop playing the game, but they didn't know how to stop.
(1:56:43) But once you get once you get really high up, you tend to find more purpose in mission. I I agree with this in some sort. The more and more people I talk to and the more and more I reflect on my journey, I find the same thing. >> Yeah. >> It's in the beginning, I was driven out of insecurity. >> Yeah. >> That I need to have enough wealth and money so that >> nobody in my family is fighting for fighting because of finances.
(1:57:11) >> I thought money will solve everything, right? >> Yep. And the day I started not playing that game, not day I would like enough moments and now I've reached a much better place in my life. >> Yeah. >> That there's something liberating about it >> where you're not insecure and like I think I've gotten much better and I'm attracting way more opportunities and wealth and good people in my life.
(1:57:43) >> Yeah. I'm way more happier and I find out way more energy since the day I started playing it like a game >> for me. This is like I'm not doing this genuinely because of some insecurity. >> Yeah. >> It's just I love doing I mean this I feel this is the best job in the world. >> It's fun.
(1:58:02) It's like a game I'm playing every day. >> Yeah. And there's also I I I imagine you feel this too, but you know once you reach this level you realize that there's there's a certain level of responsibility like it's you and I have been blessed with these platforms and these audiences and and to be in a position like this where you can reach millions of people, it is it is an honor. Yeah.
(1:58:26) >> Right. And like I feel that very deeply these days of of like I need to I need to be a good steward to the people who listen to me and and be try to be a good force in the culture and in society and I take that very very seriously and I find it incredibly motivating and very satisfying too. Right.
(1:58:49) So it's >> I I agree with you. I think the question is is like can you start there or do you have to be insecure first which which I I actually don't know >> you know I I think this is what I believe in okay I believe that >> first if you don't have food on your table and you you don't have enough means and finances to secure your family >> just get that part sorted >> forget about these questions >> like all The questions about purpose, am I doing it right, wrong, good, bad, whatever, like all of these passion, purpose, things like responsib
(1:59:31) >> Yeah. >> the meaning of your life right now is to put food put food on the table and then take care of your family. Once you've taken care of that, then ask these questions of purpose and try to do I'm doing it out of insecurity or I'm doing it to make it better for me or is it liberating? Is it positive? is negative all of that.
(1:59:51) >> Yeah. >> And you one thing which I find it difficult tell me if it's >> good or bad. I'll tell you what I feel every time >> every time I'm playing the game. Okay. This let's say this is the game or like any entrepreneurial venture I'm doing. >> Sure. >> Or I'm whenever I'm meeting somebody or there's an opportunity I am very I feel very inferior.
(2:00:18) M >> I feel like this guy is way more powerful. This guy's better. This guy's more knowledgeable. This guy has more money. And like I feel inferior. >> Yeah. >> Do I even deserve this? Like is it for me? There's there's a deep sense of inferiority complex in me and I try to compare myself with everybody in the room.
(2:00:38) >> Mhm. >> And it has nothing to do with that person's finances or position. I can be comparing myself with somebody who is much lower uh in terms of physical or economic or social status than me. I would still feel inferior. >> At the same time, I have this superiority complex. >> Like I am the best.
(2:01:03) Like I was born for this. I'm going to kill it. Maybe I'm not this today. >> Yeah. >> But I am more hungry than this guy I'm going to beat. Like I know this. >> Yeah. I don't know how to navigate these feelings that both are like combined and every time I walk in a room whether for a podcast or for a pitch or a sales meeting. >> Yeah, >> I feel the same thing.
(2:01:21) >> Like have you have Have you ever felt like both feelings together? >> Yeah, I I can relate to that a lot. I It's funny too because I mean I I think both are the superiority is probably a comp a compensation for the inferiority, right? Like it's it's a it's a counteraction. It's it's the part of your brain saying like, "No, no, no.
(2:01:45) We're not going to feel that way. We're gonna be better." >> Yeah. >> Uh it's funny because I think I used to feel that a lot. I felt that particularly when my book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [ __ ] took off and a lot of big opportunities show started showing up. I started meeting really famous, impressive people, really wealthy people, started getting invited to dinners and events and stuff.
(2:02:11) I'm like, how how am I here? Like, how did I end up in this room? Uh, and I would say for a few years I felt that quite a bit. It's funny though because I think as I've gotten older, the thing I started to realize is just nobody knows what they're doing. like nobody even >> billionaires, A-list celebrities. >> Yeah.
(2:02:38) >> Politicians, like no, everybody's winging it. Everybody's just like, I think this will work. We'll find out. And >> and at a certain point, you I don't know. I take a lot of comfort in that that it it's it's uh that there's not there's not some mysterious bar that I'm trying to reach or achieve that there's not a secret that people have figured out that I haven't figured out.
(2:03:05) Um everybody's just taking their best guess and some people tend to best guess better than others. You know one thing whe no matter no matter at which level you are in your life whether you're just starting out you're made you've made it big there's one thing we all crave in some level that is respect. >> Mhm.
(2:03:29) >> How how can somebody be how can somebody instantly become respectable in a room they walk in? This is a little cliche, but I think the the best way to be respected is to to respect is to respect others, right? Is to this comes back to the confidence thing, right? It's like the difference between a confident person and a narcissist is that a a confident person doesn't need to prove to you >> that they're right or a narcissist does.
(2:04:00) >> Um, and because a narcissist needs to prove to you all the time, they are by definition not respecting you. They're not respecting your opinion. they're not respecting your agency. They're not respecting um that you may know something that they don't. Um when you're confident, you respect people because you understand that they they come from a different background.
(2:04:20) They have different perspectives. They have different opinions and they can probably teach you something that you don't know. >> And um and so I always start with respect until the person proves otherwise. You give benefit of doubt that everybody needs to be respected. >> Yes. >> Until >> until >> until there's also a funny thing which I've noticed.
(2:04:48) I should have asked you this in the section where we were talking about men and women. >> Mhm. >> But here we go. Because we're talking about respect. >> Why do some men chase validation from women they don't even respect? >> That's a good question. It's a good question. I think a lot of men see women as um a status signal and >> any woman >> uh no beautiful women um it's funny one of the things that I observed in the pickup artist industry and this was another thing that I said that got me a lot of hate in that industry but I still think it to this
(2:05:27) day I still think it's true. uh men who came to the pickup artist stuff, they came because they they wanted approval from women. But the ones who really stayed and really spent a lot of time there, it's because they wanted approval from other men. It I think the the guys who become very very fixated on how much women like them or dislike them or how many women date them or how beautiful a woman they can date is.
(2:06:00) It's it has nothing it has very little to do with the the women. It has to everything to do with other men. They like they crave the admiration and respect of other men and they see women as a means to receive that. And and sadly, when you're treating women as a means to receive respect from other men, by definition, you're not respecting the woman.
(2:06:24) So that's why they don't care. They don't care if she's smart or stupid or has an interesting personality or interesting hobbies. All they care about is what is this going to get me for the other men that I'm around. >> So they don't care if they respect the women or not. They just care will other men respect me or not. >> Yeah.
(2:06:43) >> Do other men respect? >> Uh I would say other unconfident men. I mean this comes back to the Dan Bilzerian thing, right? It's like it's like you and I look at Dan Biller. We're like, "Wow, what a loser." But it's like 13 million guys are like, "Oh my god, this guy's amazing. Fair.
(2:07:08) Let's say if somebody's watching this right now and >> have figured out that >> the right way to build is not >> the kind of wave that we've discussed about and looking at like >> really terrible role models. >> Yeah. >> And they want to get their life together. >> And there's some they're 25. If you were 25, right? >> And you want to get your life together.
(2:07:29) Yeah. >> Give me an action plan for the next 90 days. >> 90 days. >> Like I want to start today. This is it. I want to reset my life. 2026 is my year. >> Yeah. >> I'm 25. I want to go from zero to actually building an identity or maybe go on the right path. >> Yeah. >> How do I reset my life in just 90 days? >> Reset your life.
(2:07:52) I don't know if you can reset the whole life, but I would start with yourself. Start with the basics. health, fitness, hobbies. It's funny. So, there's a section in models, my dating book for men that is just all about this. It's like these are the basics that you just have to get in order. Like, this is this is minimum requirements, right, for like dating any any woman who's going to make you happy.
(2:08:21) And and it's like and it's there's and there's an 8020 to all these things, right? So, it's you don't you don't need to be like a bodybuilder or have a six-pack. You just need to have good fitness and health. Like, take care of yourself. And it's not even about how you look. It's about your energy, your confidence.
(2:08:38) If you go to the gym, if you work out regularly, you're going to feel more en you're going to feel more energetic. You're going to feel better about yourself. You're going to um have more confidence when you're doing pretty much anything else in life. So, that's one piece of it. One piece of it. The next piece of it, I think, is make sure that you have hobbies and interests in your life that you're pursuing for no other reason than you like them.
(2:09:01) And >> it's for most young men, it's like I'm going to say video games don't count. Not that you can't play video games, but like you need to have something in your life that doesn't involve a screen that you're really interested in or really uh want to pursue or or get good at. And again, it it's less about what the actual activity is and it's more the fact that you are doing something, you're improving at something, you're learning something on a regular basis and you have some diversity of interests, right? Um
(2:09:37) the third thing I would say is focus on social life. Um and I would go in this order by the way. Personal fitness and health, lifestyle. Second is hobbies and interest. And then third is social life. Like get out of the house, see people face to face, make a few good friends. Um, and really just find people that you genuinely enjoy being around.
(2:10:03) You don't feel insecure around them. You don't feel competitive with them. You don't feel like you need to prove something to be around them. Like, find people that you enjoy being with simply for the sake of being with them. And it's funny because it's like if you get those three things in order, it makes all the dating stuff five times easier.
(2:10:25) >> Everything. So if I have to reframe this >> and put it in a 90-day framework. >> Yep. So step one, first 30 days you focus on foundation biology of your life >> where you're taking care of your health, body, energy, sleep, just like the basic stuff so that you're getting in a ritual and a habit to take care of yourself and your body a better way.
(2:10:48) >> That's first 30 days. >> Second like the next 30 days which is 30 to 60, you focus on your fitness and plus you add your identity into it. Hobbies, interest, >> hobbies, interests, identity. >> What is that one or two things which I can really get good at? >> Y >> and has some level of professional value to it as well.
(2:11:11) It just doesn't have to be something like playing a game online. >> Yeah. Something it doesn't involve a screen. And and the thing is too is you don't have to be good at it. Like it just needs to be something that you are curious about that you enjoy. >> Like when I'm >> trying to get good at it, right? Well, you want to improve, but you don't need to be good.
(2:11:30) Like, for example, when I moved here to LA, I took up surfing. I'm a terrible surfer, >> but I love it. It makes me really happy. I love being in the ocean. I love getting out there paddling. It's a great workout. I love the water. I'm not a good surfer, but every time I go out, I get a little bit better. Some of my best guy friends here in LA, I met through surfing or like we go surf together.
(2:11:50) That's it. That's all that's all that matters. It's It's just like a simple hobby. It's a nice thing I do on the weekends. it's something that I can like try to improve at or or or learn about. And uh and then and then when you go out and you you try to build that social life from day 60 to 90 >> now you have something to do together.
(2:12:08) You have something more than you know playing Minecraft or you know staring at Tik Tok or whatever you know like >> just just go out build friends who you would love to work and play with. >> Yeah. That's these are the these are your 90 days 30 30 30 that is the basics that is the absolute basics yes >> okay you know do you feel sometimes you you sort of contradict what you say >> me never >> like okay look at your life >> never I've never contradicted myself ever you know there's there's there's a research Arch I was reading okay that
(2:12:53) researchers found that people who experience major trauma and then dedicate their life teaching to others about resilience >> Mhm. >> show different brain patterns than people who just heal and move on. The teachers never fully process their own trauma. They get stuck in a loop of reexplaining it and and researchers called it performative healing.
(2:13:18) >> Okay. So, do you think you're related to >> what are you trying to say? >> I'm saying like you've gone through a lot. You've gone through a lot. So, maybe you you want to teach more men because there was a time in your life where >> you were miserable. >> Sure. >> Right. There was >> where you were just tripping on drugs, doing bunch of random [ __ ] Okay.
(2:13:44) Not taking care of yourself. You had you saw dysfunctional relationships in your family. >> So there was like meaninglessness all around. >> You're not good. And you in fact >> after your first book as well, you you were making money and you felt terrible, >> right? You were miserable. So you've gone through bunch of [ __ ] and now your whole life is dedicated teaching men not to give >> teaching men how to be purposeful, teaching people how to live life in a better way. Yeah.
(2:14:13) >> So you're you're teaching what you never experienced initially. Do you think it became a way for you to just I I don't know like there was like the solutions of your own problems started becoming suggestions for others. It probably started that way for sure. You know, there there's an old saying that like people who can't do teach and it's there's probably wisdom in that.
(2:14:46) I I do think it started that way like and I by the way I have been open about this. I haven't talked about it in a long time but back when I was blogging I used to talk about this that my blog was my therapy, right? So it was like anything that I was wrestling with or any insecurity that I was struggling with, I would go write an article about it and that was kind of my way of like sorting everything out in my head and trying to understand what was going on with myself.
(2:15:14) So there's absolutely that element and I think anybody who teaches in this industry, there's absolutely that element to it that it's like part of us we're healing ourselves and it just so happens that like Most humans hurt in the same in similar ways. So, but in the act of healing yourself, you're likely going to contribute and help millions of other people who have experienced similar things.
(2:15:43) >> Do you think you've healed properly or completely? >> No, completely no. I don't think anybody heals completely. Um, but that's okay. uh properly. I don't know how to answer that. Uh I will just say that like I feel I feel very healthy and happy the last four years, 5 years. >> You you've also struggled with social insecurity.
(2:16:10) >> Mhm. >> Like in the beginning I was reading that you were chasing >> validation, fame, social proof, >> all of these like you wanted to be >> seen and chosen in some form. Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Does your fame today fill that void for you? >> I think you still have that like you want to be seen. >> I think there's definitely there's definitely some insecurity there that that my public persona satisfies like an itch that it scratches.
(2:16:46) I I don't think anybody who puts in the amount of time and energy to build an audience like ours, by the way. I'm not the only one at this table who has worked for years. >> Talk about you. Come on. >> Cut. Cut. But it but it is funny. I I do I I think there's still some of that down there. For sure. For sure.
(2:17:22) Uh if I'm being really honest with myself in moments like it's still there. I don't think it controls me maybe the way it did 10 15 years ago. Like it's not the primary motivation, but it's an itch that still likes to be scratched occasionally. Like I I like to see the numbers go up. Yeah. You know there's there's a lot of uh researchers and lot of examples of people who who preach detachment >> Mhm.
(2:17:55) >> and outcome independence and because of preaching that detachment they get fame >> and then they get attached and addicted to the fame that comes with it. >> I believe it. Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. >> It happened with you. Does it happen with you? I try to So there's two things that I do about that.
(2:18:16) Like one is I you said earlier that you you became much you you had a much better relationship with it once you saw it as kind of a game. I feel the same way. Like it's for many years, especially early in my career, I saw how many people read me, how many people listened to me as very much a a judgment on me, on how good I was.
(2:18:40) Eventually, you just learn that like people come and go. Some some episodes are better than others. Some p topics pop off. You don't know why. It has nothing to do with you. Like eventually you just you gain the wisdom and maturity to understand that like it's actually not about you most of the time.
(2:18:59) Some of it's about you, but not all of it. Um and so I I definitely see it as a game. The other thing that I try to do is um and I've been doing this recently is is I try to very intentionally find ways to meet fans face to face like whether it's events or hosting a meetup or um you know doing some sort of special piece piece of content but like actually meeting fans and readers in person, hearing their stories, talking to them about their like it just makes it real.
(2:19:32) And again, it reminds me it's like it's not about me. It's it's really it's I'm just a a conduit for a lot of these ideas and perspectives to reach people. And um and so it's it's a nice way to like keep keep me sane. >> Talking about sane, which is complete like I'm going to ask you something which is completely unrelated to this. >> Mhm.
(2:20:00) But something about you which I found interesting but have never and and I didn't find enough stories or data around it that you used to be a wingman. >> A wingman. >> A wingman for $800 an hour or some stuff like that. >> You mentioned somewhere, right? So, I used to when I started my career as a dating coach, um that was that was one of the services back then is like you could >> you could pay a guy.
(2:20:36) This is like way back in my career. So, you got you and your team must have dug really far. >> But it used to be um you know, you could read my blog, you could like buy my ebook or whatever. Um, you could go to my seminar and and then if you wanted, yeah, I'll come out for whatever 800 bucks a night or whatever it was. Um, yeah, I'll come out with you.
(2:21:01) I'll go to a bar with you and I'll meet a bunch of girls and introduce them to you and tell you what you're doing wrong and critique like what you're how you're presenting yourself, what you're saying or whatever. Uh, interesting line of work. Did it Tell me honestly, did it only work for you or for others as well? >> Like you would make $800 and get the girls, but others would >> just keep seeing you play the game.
(2:21:29) >> No, no, no. I It's funny cuz there were guys in the industry who just they they would take the money and then they would just try to go get hook up themselves. I never liked that because it it just felt very felt like cheating. >> So, what were the rules? the rules where it's like the focus is the client, right? So the girl if the girl really likes me or whatever, like great, cool, I'll take her number, talk to her later.
(2:21:58) The focus is on the client and >> um but yeah, I mean some some men some men would see a lot of success really quickly. Um some men it was really hard and you know, really frustrating, very slow. Uh, you know, it's just it's it depends a lot on the person and their particular issue. >> I'm interested.
(2:22:20) What would you say? Like you would go to a girl and like what would you say this and later when she finds out like you were paid $800 to set up this? >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You you um the uh >> Yeah. You know, >> okay, tell me specifics. Tell me one incident where it worked and one incident where it didn't work. >> Okay. >> I'm trying to remember.
(2:22:44) So, the client that that I'm trying like one of the best clients I ever had, uh, great guy. So, a lot of the clients >> Okay. Sorry. Like, I'm breaking the story, but I have I have a question. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Best client would mean somebody who would never get because you keep getting paid again. >> No, no.
(2:23:05) Best client is like they got amazing results very quickly. >> Outcome success. Okay. >> Yes. So, a lot of you you know like body dysmorphia, right? Like women who even though they're skinny, they think they're very fat. I feel like a lot of men have um like confidence dysmorphia. Like there's a lot of men who they're incredibly successful and interesting and smart and kind and like they have all these great traits about them, but like they think they're losers.
(2:23:35) And these were always the easiest clients because in their head, no woman is ever going to want to talk to them. And so those clients, like basically my job was simply to take them out and show them how wrong they were, which usually didn't take very long. Uh I'll give you one specific example. So there was a guy I worked with um who it's very interesting actually.
(2:23:59) He was so he was Nigerian from Africa. um moved to the United States as a teenager, but moved to like the middle of like rural middle of the middle of the US, like at one of the most racist parts of the US. And he had a really bad experience after only being in the US for like a month or two.
(2:24:24) like he he got arrested like basically a woman uh a a a white woman accused him of like treating like treating her poorly but it turned out it was a different black guy and so the police came and arrested him and he actually went to jail for something he never did basically for like just speaking to a woman. So he had this like trauma and fear of even speaking to women.
(2:24:50) And this lasted for over 10 years. So when I met him, he was in his late 20s. He was a doctor. He was incredibly successful, in great shape, nicest guy in the world, super smart. I remember when I met him, I was like, "How do you have problems? Like there's no way you have any problems." and he was just terrified of of of speaking to women.
(2:25:18) Like he just he he had all of that that trauma and baggage. So with him, it was really just casually walking up to women and politely introducing ourselves and being like, "Hey, this is so and so." Um, and he just had to see that they were really nice and receptive over and over again. And it was I remember it was it was hilarious.
(2:25:43) I think he got like six or eight phone number. I think we talked to like 10 women and like eight of them gave them their phone numbers. And I remember he was so shocked. He was like, "How is it always this easy?" And I was like, "Uh yeah, for you it's going to be." Yeah. And he just like couldn't believe it.
(2:26:01) So that that's an example of like a real great success story or like a you know a a good a good client outcome. >> You know what's going to happen now? Somebody will clip this part. >> Yeah. Yeah, like just this reel and there are a lot of people reaching out to you to do the same thing for them. >> No, guys, I'm retired. I'm a retired wingman.
(2:26:24) Um, >> okay. An example of somebody it did not go well with. Um, I worked with a guy, so he was a professional poker player and he was like a math genius but just horrible social skills. Horrible social skills. And worse, being a poker player, playing poker 10 hours a day, he was obsessed with money. So, he was one of these guys that probably followed Dan Bilzerian and was like, "Yeah, I want that.
(2:27:01) " Um, he just he didn't go outside enough. He didn't have friends. He had like no social contact. So, his his view of the world was just very warped and distorted. And I I I remember he actually hired me for a a lot, like a week, you know, and so I ended up speak spending a week with him. And I remember spending most of the time with him just explaining to him like, "No, no, no.
(2:27:26) This is not how the world works. Like, nobody cares. Nobody cares about your car, dude. Like, let me let me explain this to you. Nobody gives a [ __ ] what kind of car you drive." And and he like just didn't understand. It was It seemed like such a big important thing to him. And his social skills were were really terrible. Um, and he was just very awkward and arrogant and um, and basically like and he he had tons of money.
(2:27:58) So, it was like as as somebody who he was hiring. It was actually really hard because he just kept hiring me for more nights and I'm like, I can't stand this guy. I don't want to I don't want to be around this guy. I ended up basically having to kind of cut him off and be like, "Look, dude, >> this can't work." >> Yeah.
(2:28:15) I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not doing this anymore. >> I'm not the right wingman for you. Probably Dan >> B. You should go to that. >> Yeah. >> Like choose choose a different wingman. >> Yeah. But I remember I remember my parting advice for him is I I remember I told him cuz he was going out to clubs. He was buying like VIP tables and B like he was spending thousands of dollars a night.
(2:28:38) And I remember I I told him I was like,"I think you should stop this. I think you should stop spending all the money." I said, 'I think you should what you should do if I'm being like my very best advice for you is to stop all of this and spend the next year and just focus on making friends. make some friends, get some social skills, get a social life, then come back to the dating and worry about it.
(2:29:06) And he did not like hearing that. And um I don't know, I never heard from him again. So, you know, you've been you've been in this for a very long time. >> Mhm. >> You've been the pickup artist. You've been with so many people. You've seen successes and failures. Do you think this works? this buying the VIP table like spending like lot of money on champagne a lot of lot of guys do that >> define works like >> do you think women like that I think it gets attention I don't it it depends what you want if you want
(2:29:45) attention yeah it will probably get you some attention um do you want a good relationship it's not going to get you a good relationship. Like it's it >> it can >> I think a lot of men who who don't have any affection or intimacy in their lives, they mistake having lots of attention for having affection and intimacy, but it's attention is not a replacement.
(2:30:13) It's it's very empty. >> It's some sort of manipulation, >> right? And just like one of your other techniques. >> Yeah. Do you think here? So, as straightforward as I can be, do you think some women love to get manipulated? I mean, I I don't I take issue with the def with the the definition of the question because I think if if she knew she was being manipulated, then she's not really being manipulated.
(2:30:47) I I'll say I'll say this. I do think some people, both men and women, do secretly like toxic relationships. Again, it's it's the addiction. It's the it's like it makes them feel alive. It gives their life a sense of meaning. It's they ride the em emotional roller coaster and they find them they they continually find themselves drawn back to it.
(2:31:18) And the same way an alcoholic finds themself drawn back to a bar, the same way a drug addict finds themselves dragged back or a gambling addict finds themselves dragged back to a casino. Like it's people who people can get hooked on toxic relationships and they find themselves consistently being drawn back to the same personalities. >> And this can be potentially a pattern which is coming from their families as well >> in a lot of cases probably. Yeah.
(2:31:43) >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So you said that your parents didn't make their relationship work because they came from a dysfunctional family. >> Mhm. >> Your parents also were not able to make their relationship work. So you technically also came from a dysfunctional family. >> Correct. >> How did you break that cycle? >> A lot of work on myself and my wife has done a lot of work on herself as well.
(2:32:06) Um >> what do you mean by work? How can somebody who is who's self-aware and who's understood this pattern that they come from a dysfunctional family but now want to work and make the relationship good? How can they work on themselves? >> I think it's there's two components of it.
(2:32:26) One is just gaining awareness of the environment you grew up in, the dysfunction you grew up in, the values that you have, maybe the insecurities that you have. So the first and most important component is just gaining an awareness around all of this stuff. Like you have to educate yourself about yourself. The second component is then learning the skills like learning how to um manage your emotions without blaming your partner.
(2:32:56) Um learning how to set boundaries clearly and effectively and learning how to enforce them as well. Um, learning how to communicate your feelings in a way that's not needy or manipulative uh or or demanding. Um, learning how to be present. Learning how to listen. Like all of these kind of fundamental core relationship skills come after the awareness because you need you need the awareness to understand like where you weren't taught well.
(2:33:24) What what were the things that in the house that you grew up in that are actually not healthy? And then also like what are the things that you're naturally kind of good at because everybody does have certain skills that they're good at, you know, and >> and so it's you gain that understanding and then you work on the skills. But even even working on the skills, it's incredibly hard, you know.
(2:33:44) My wife and I have like learned so much from each other in terms of how to communicate well, how to be open with our emotions, how to not judge each other, um how to not get triggered by some stupid thing or that stupid thing, you know, it it's just it's a constant work in progress. And um but I I think it's I think it's the most worthwhile work.
(2:34:08) you know, all of our all of the psychological research, probably the most consistent and profound finding that psychology has found over and over and over and over again over a hundred years is that happiness is simply good relationships. If you have good relationships in your life, you're probably going to be a happy and healthy person.
(2:34:30) And if you don't have good relationships, you're probably not going to be a happy and healthy person. like it it is if you were to boil down the entire field into a single sentence like that's probably what you end up with and so developing this awareness developing these skills I think it's just one of the highest leverage things anybody can do especially if they're young >> in this entire thing nowhere you mentioned money and and but for a lot of people they think in order to have a great life in order to build a great
(2:35:05) relationship. Money is so important. Money would actually give them some sort of feeling of they have made it and their life is good. And you have said in past as well that money doesn't solve anything, >> right? Something something of that sort. Then >> yeah, >> like at a very young age you learned that money doesn't solve it.
(2:35:25) >> What does that have you figured out? >> Well, let me let me clarify my stance on money. Money is like oxygen. If you don't have it, it solves everything. And if you do have it, it solves nothing. Right. So you said earlier, money solves money problems. It doesn't past money problems, it doesn't solve any problem.
(2:35:49) So, I 100% agree with what you said earlier, like if you are struggling to put food on the table, if you're not financially stable, if your family's not taken care of, yes, money should be top priority. But once you get past that basic stability and those basic needs being met, money doesn't solve anything.
(2:36:12) And in fact, what surprises people is that money can actually complicate things because money having money it it can enable bad behaviors. It removes consequences from mistakes. Um it can provide more distractions or methods of avoidance of what needs to be said or done. That was the experience in my family growing up.
(2:36:37) So I grew up pretty middle class and then when I was maybe six or eight years old, my father's business really took off and then we had a lot of money and my parents, it wasn't the worst, it wasn't the most dysfunctional relationship in the world, but like they were not, neither one of them had that self-awareness that I was just talking about around like their own emotional issues and their own childhoods and their own feelings.
(2:37:08) neither of them could really express their feelings well. And so they didn't they they weren't they were both the type of people that just avoid problems and avoid conflict and pretend like nothing's wrong. And so what happened in the case of both of them is when my family suddenly got a lot of money.
(2:37:28) Now they have way more opportunities to avoid problems, right? So it's a little bit frustrated, upset about something. Well, let's just book another trip to Europe, you know? um not happy about how this thing is going. Well, let's buy a new car. Like, just forget about it, you know, buy a new TV. Oh, let's get the new satellite package with 500 channels.
(2:37:48) Like, oh, that'll keep the kids happy for a while. And money just became a new way to push the problem further into the future until eventually we you we just ended up in a situation where like everybody was frustrated or upset or unhappy but nobody felt like they could talk about it. And and so the situation blew up.
(2:38:15) And so I I feel fortunate that I learned at a very young age that money doesn't solve the happiness problem. It's money doesn't buy happiness. It can buy away unhappiness, but it does that's not the same thing as buying happiness, right? So if you're hungry, money solves that problem. If you are cold, money solves that problem. If um you know if you if you want if you want to have a a basic lifestyle, money solves that problem.
(2:38:52) But if you don't have friends, if you don't have a good relationship, if you hate your job, it doesn't solve any of those. >> Does it bother you even today that your parents' relationship didn't work out? What a question, man. I think like any family, so we talked earlier about how like some things never heal entirely.
(2:39:20) I think that's definitely one. I don't think like if you're a child of divorce, I don't think you ever completely are at peace with it. Um, these days though, I mean, I would say the anger and resentment from that, I feel like I sorted through that probably at least a decade ago. These days, my frustration tends to be more just around how my parents manage it today.
(2:39:51) You know, it's like sometimes, and anybody with divorced parents is gonna relate to this, but like, you know, sometimes there's like little things come, you know, it's like a somebody's wedding or a holiday or something and it it's like somebody starts some drama and my brother and I will just sit there and just be like, "Really, guys? Like, how long are we going to do this? Do we have to keep doing this?" So, I think these days it's more it's just more frustration at the present behavior, but um but it's hard. I I
(2:40:25) don't it's maybe this comes full circle back to the the comment about it being harder to divorce. Um I it really does it does a number on the kids for sure and um and I think that needs to be remembered. >> If you were given a chance knowing everything that you know today >> Mhm. >> to maybe go back at the time when they were actually separating.
(2:40:55) >> How would you fix it or what would you try? >> I don't know. I I don't know if you can fix a relationship for people, but let's say you have to try. >> I do think there's probably something to the fact that like a huge part of my career has been an attempt at trying, right? It's like it's the the teaching as a form of healing.
(2:41:26) like there's a piece of this that is absolutely like I need to know all the things my parents didn't know so I don't repeat the same process and so I become obsessively interested in this and I start teaching it because it's a way to it's it's my like my unconscious's desperate attempt to solve the thing that that hurt me so much. Um, but I I honestly I I don't know.
(2:41:55) I don't know enough about my parents particular situation, their the dynamics of their marriage. I know a lot about their personalities. I know what each of them has told me, but it's hard to know. >> Do you wish you knew more? >> Not really. >> No. >> Yeah, not really. Um, it's funny. Sometimes I wish I knew less. Sometimes they tell me things I'm like, "Yeah, I didn't really need to hear that.
(2:42:25) " It's hard because it's, you know, they're your parents, so you love them, right? And and um and I love both of them. And I see I see what's great in both of them, but I also see their flaws and and so I on some theoretical level, I see why it fell apart and broke down. I can see the the weaknesses in each of them.
(2:42:49) >> Yeah. >> You know, you every time I ask you something like this, you laugh it off. >> Have you ever Have you ever sat down and cried about it? >> Yes. Yeah, for sure. No. When was >> the last time you cried? >> The The reason probably a long time. So, the reason I'm laughing about it, there's two reasons.
(2:43:12) One is that uh my defense mechanism is humor. two is that uh I've never been asked this stuff before. Like it is it is such a pointed like put Mark Manson on the therapist couch and dig into his childhood. Um I So the part of it is just like I guess as a podcaster myself it's like a it's like an amusement like it's like a uh I was like wow nobody's ever asked me this on on on air before.
(2:43:48) Um so so that's that that's that's what it is. >> Is that a good thing or a bad thing? >> Um I don't know. I don't want to no judgment. I think it's actually pretty cool. Um I think it's pretty ballsy actually. Uh, so yeah, respect. Thank you. Wow, I've gotten my day's validation. >> Done. Time to go home. >> But now that you already talking about it, let me let me try another one level up.
(2:44:15) >> Okay. >> And let me attempt another thing. You were you were bullied as a kid. >> Yeah, >> a little bit. But you have never talked about an incident. >> Uh, >> a specific incident where you were bullied. Uh trying to think of one, >> you know, because if I read neuroscience >> Mhm. >> then your book's title makes sense to me.
(2:44:36) >> Mhm. >> Because kids who get bullied early on, a part of their threat perception increases and they go complete emotional shutdown. >> Mhm. >> So their way of dealing with it is I don't give a >> Yeah. >> Because if it happens multiple times with them >> Yeah. Then they're like, "Yeah, whatever.
(2:44:58) " The good, the bad, the ugly, the the times that you get bullied because it it becomes a habit. You're like, "Yep." >> Yeah. >> So, you stop giving a lot. >> You numb yourself. >> Exactly. So do you think that's your because you were bullied as a child that is why you've become like this trying not to I think the bullying is it's part of a larger so we're kind of touching on different pieces of the same picture right so to paint like a a wider picture um I grew up in in rural Texas which for the Indian listeners is um a very conservative, very religious part of the
(2:45:42) US, like one of the most conservative and religious parts of the US. And as you probably can probably tell from listening to me, I am not super religious or super conservative. Um I'm I I was very artistic as a child. I was intellectual. I was very curious. Um, and so I grew up in an environment that was just very didn't really respect the traits that I grew up with.
(2:46:11) Uh, and and I felt very out of place. I felt very alienated through most of my childhood. And I didn't really understand why until I became a teenager and I then I thought everybody was full [ __ ] So, um, so that's kind of the backdrop. And then on top of that, you have, you know, my parents, my family's kind of falling apart.
(2:46:30) And then you have on top of that, uh, at school, because I'm kind of the nerdy, artsy, creative kid, um, I'm I'm like bullied by the jocks, by like the popular athletic boys. Uh, >> how were you bullied? Tell me an incident. >> Well, I went to a school, so where I grew up, athletics was like the top priority. Um, and everybody your, as a young man, your status is very much judged based on how athletic you are, how good you are at sports.
(2:47:01) I'm terrible at sports. Always have been. So, I would get forced onto these sports teams and I was like consistently the worst player. And then on top of that, as you pointed out, I didn't really give a [ __ ] that I was the worst player. Like, I I was like, I hate this. I want to go read a book. like leave me alone.
(2:47:24) And so the other boys, I think, would would get frustrated with me. They didn't understand me. They didn't really accept how I was. Um, and so they I think initially it it kind of started as like a trying to uh uh reinforce, you know, try to get me to try harder, right? It's like, Manson, stop [ __ ] around. You [ __ ] suck. You know, get your ass up. Try again.
(2:47:49) and all this stuff. And of course, it just like it never really worked or went everywhere. And so then, you know, you you eventually you just kind of become the punching bag. Um I there was one boy who he he got really into wrestling um like Olympic wrestling, you know. Um and he he was like learning all these moves and so he would want to demonstrate moves to his friends.
(2:48:17) So he would always grab me and then like throw me on the ground and then like demonstrate his new move on me in front of all of his friends and like I was like I was basic I was basically like his demo his wrestling demo for everybody and he would just like beat the [ __ ] out of me. Um >> so were you used to get humiliate were you like you used to feel humiliated at that point? >> Yeah.
(2:48:40) >> Or you used to feel like I'll take revenge. Uh, no. It was more humiliation. >> And you were scared like you just wanted to avoid the the concentration. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just avoided avoided them as much as possible. You know, it's like >> it was never like I I'll come back one day and one day I'll get my chance and stuff like that.
(2:48:57) >> It just struck me as stupid. Like why bother, right? Like it's um in hindsight like I probably should have fought back a little bit more although I was so much weaker than him. Like I >> Were you ashamed in front of people? >> Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Um, no, it just made me I I just withdrew, you know, so I just became very closed off.
(2:49:25) Um, as you said, not giving a [ __ ] but like detaching myself, right? Like it's just like emotionless. Don't show any fear. Don't show any emotion. Don't give them any amu am ammunition. Um, and like I said, like I was very intellectual, artistic, so I just I just retreated into books and music. Like I was like, "Okay, they can do whatever they want.
(2:49:53) I'm just going to sit sit in the corner and like read and listen to music and just tune out the whole world." Um, I do think one of the reasons, you know, so I did go through a period where I I made that comment earlier about like the men who who come to the pickup artist stuff, they want the affection of women, but the men who stay, it's because they desire the validation of other men.
(2:50:22) That I knew that was true because I that had been true for myself. What I realized is that I thought I just wanted to date more girls, but then when I started dating more girls, I saw how much other men respected me and envied me. And so then it was like a drug. It was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to I'm going to date all the girls.
(2:50:46) I'm going to I am going to date every girl these guys have ever seen." And so I think there was a lot of compensation there that I was trying to like prove to myself um that it was okay or I was okay or whatever it was. Uh but then the the side effect of that is that now I'm now I'm harboring all of these dysfunctional unhealthy relationships with women.
(2:51:16) I'm not respecting them. I'm being a selfish [ __ ] and I'm blowing up every relationship that I could potentially get in. Like I'm I'm basically sabotaging every single relationship I'm having. And after that went on for a year or two, I started to realize like, oh wait, something's wrong. Like I think I'm [ __ ] up.
(2:51:40) I think I'm the messed up one here. Um, and then that's when I went to therapy and started to kind of straight straighten my mind out. And then I ended up I really took a a pretty hard left turn in my career. I realized how toxic the pickup artist stuff was. And so I really wanted to write and create the antidote to it. >> You know, what is the emotionally healthy way for men to improve their dating lives? How can they how can they do it? not only respecting women but also respecting themselves because this is the thing is that when you objectify
(2:52:12) women you're also objectifying yourself. >> Yeah. >> And uh and then that's where the book models came from and then that basically set up the whole career. So >> how many relationships it took you to realize this? >> Oh man. Um, I don't know. But it's uh it's funny because I I a lot of the a lot of the girls I dated I didn't really it's what I told told you earlier like I was dating a lot of girls I didn't really respect.
(2:52:46) So I didn't really care >> if they broke up with me or got mad at me or whatever. But then eventually I did come across a few women that I I really respected and I really liked and then they would get mad at me and break up with me and I was like and after that happened two or three times in a row like the only thing all your relationships have in common is you.
(2:53:08) So when you see them all blow up in your face in the exact same way at a at a certain point any honest person has to be like I'm the problem. You know, I I was reading somewhere online, I think on Reddit, it it showed that you you dated 80 people. 80 You had 80 girlfriends and it took you 80 relationships to figure out that you were the problem.
(2:53:34) >> I don't know if it was that many. Um, >> are we close to that number? >> Probably. I don't. Yeah, probably. Um, it's it's a kind of a blur, >> you know. Thank you so much, you know, for for spending time with me. I mean, that's all I have. >> But one last thing, okay, >> because >> not a lot of my audience knows.
(2:54:02) I used to love your newsletters and that's what my So my exposure to your work was not your book, which is the most popular, >> but it was your newsletters. and you would write like either recommendations or just [ __ ] on people or like you would [ __ ] on certain models or sometimes you would just talk about some brutal truths about life or the things you learned over the year.
(2:54:28) I think stuff like that you used to do a lot like it was like bunch of lists and I used to love it >> and then I I went on on YouTube try to understand do you follow the same thing there as well. >> Yeah. >> And one title which I love the most >> so I want you to answer that. >> Okay. So that title is stop wasting your life, >> right? How to stop wasting your life.
(2:54:52) >> Life is all about using time well and which raises the question, how do you use time well? Like what is a valuable use of your time versus what's an unvaluable use of your time? And the argument I make in that video is that ultimately any any valuable use of your time is going to compound in some way.
(2:55:13) like it is the effort you put into a good relationship is going to create a better relationship down the road. Whereas if you put effort into a bad relationship, it's not going to get any better. It's it's at best it's going to stay the same and it's likely going to get worse. Um and there are all sorts of activities that the value compounds over time and there are a lot of activities that the value hits a ceiling over a certain period of time, right? So generally like novelty seeeking behaviors, um things like partying, uh traveling, drugs, um
(2:55:51) video games, like all of these things, the the more you do them, the less rewarding they become because they don't they don't compound. Whereas the activities that are rewarding are generally like skill-based activities, um developing some sort of network, some deeper understanding, building knowledge, all of these things compound over time.
(2:56:16) And so the point of that video is to get people to evaluate how are you spending your time and then what are the things you're spending your time on? Are they compounding or are they hitting a ceiling? Because if they're hitting the ceiling, then you're going to end up in a situation where you're going to wake up one day doing the same thing you always did, but it's not rewarding anymore because all progress is stopped.
(2:56:36) You hit the ceiling on everything. So, how do we strip out these behaviors and these activities and then replace them with the compounding behaviors and activities? And I think that in a in a nutshell is uh I guess my life philosophy. Maybe the next book, I don't know. We'll see. >> So right now make a list on one side. Write down compounding time like things that is going to compound in your life versus things which you're going to >> eliminate the feeling of achievement or excitement.
(2:57:11) >> Write that down and start spending more time on compounding things. That's >> perfect. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for spending time with me and giving me this opportunity to record a podcast. >> This was great, man. And um you're an amazing interviewer and um and much love to India.
(2:57:32) I don't I don't hate India where I don't hate India. I love India. Uh hope to be back there soon. No, you're great, man. You're really good. Um no, I was actually I was thinking like halfway through I was like, "No, this guy's like this is one of the best podcast interviews I've done in a long time." So, well done. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Thank you.
(2:57:54) Yeah, >> but you've been with like such incredible people. Do how can I make it better? Like >> you you've done Steven, you've done Chris. These are like all >> really like people I look up to. >> Yeah. Um, no, you're doing a lot of things really, really well. You seem you you clearly did your research. Um, and you seem to have like a really good sense of what your audience responds to.
(2:58:19) Um, so like that seemed very good. Like the conversation flowed very nicely. It seemed it was like a very good mix of just kind of like candid conversation and then also like very like pointed, you know, getting the sound bites and the hooks and everything. >> Thank you. >> I'm ready. I'm caffeinated. I'm ready.
(2:58:37) Let's go. This is you. >> Yes. Okay. >> I'm excited. Anything I should know? >> No. No. Not really. Like nothing. >> This is the first time and day one. >> Okay. >> The first guest. >> I'm the first one. >> Wow. All right. >> Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. Now you have to do three things.
(2:59:12) Number one, subscribe to this channel right now. The more you subscribe, the better the guess we will be able to get for you. Number two, please comment and let us know what did we do wrong and what did we do right because the more you give us feedback, the better we will be able to make episodes for you. And number three, please share this episode with at least one person because one conversation can change someone's entire life.
(2:59:37) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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