Shahana Goswami On Dating Milind Soman & Open Relationships | Podcast | Breakthrough Moments
Author Name:Breakthrough Moments with Priyanka Bhatt
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@BreakthroughMomentswithPB
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i78u_l4_B48
Transcript:
(00:00) Was there one defining moment though [music] which made you feel that you could have multiple partners? >> I had them even in school. I remember suddenly in [music] one phase feeling like I was in love with two people and then I wow you can be in love with two people. That's crazy. >> So we've also read of course about you that you also dated millions at a very young age.
(00:17) You had a 21-year-old >> but you know we were together for I think a year and a half 2 [music] years maybe at the time. I suddenly realized it's until I don't know how to love myself I'm not going to feel loved in a relationship. Tell me what is that one criticism that women receive that men almost never hear? >> I don't think there are that many men who are judged for their looks and appearance as much as there are women.
(00:39) >> Right. But what is the biggest misconception people have about actors today? >> I think that they're rich. [music] >> Tell me about an actor who completely change your opinion after meeting them. >> Char. [laughter] Name a successful actor for me who has never chased a celebrity tag. >> Why do you say that? cuz he doesn't care for it.
(00:59) Tell me what's that one trait all successful actors have in common? >> I think it would be. [music] >> Welcome to breakthrough moments with Priyanka. You know why would a successful intelligent woman choose an open relationship? What happens when you stop living by society's rules and start creating your own? Why are independent women admired from a distance but judged up close? And what are the uncomfortable truths about Bollywood that actors discuss behind closed doors but never publicly admit? In today's episode, we joined by none other than the stunning
(01:38) Shahana Gowami. And Shahana is an award-winning actor, a thinker, and one of the few voices willing to challenge conventional ideas around love, freedom, success, and womanhood. We talk about her journey into open relationships, the realities of being an independent woman, and what it truly means to live life on your own terms.
(01:58) If you've ever questioned society's definition of love, success, or happiness, then this episode is for you. We'd love for you to stay tuned till the very end. Shahana, thank you so much for being on my show, Breakthrough Moments. Uh the show this show is all about you know the breakthroughs that you've had in your life and the defining moment and and the pivotal moments the transformation that you've gone through in your journey of building what you've built today.
(02:21) >> Uh I I really admire your charisma your openness uh your independence the freedom with the way you speak. So uh I've always admired your roles especially in um Bombay Bigums. >> Thank you. >> So very privileged and uh happy delighted that I'm here sitting in the studio with you. Thank you Priyanka. Thank you for having me.
(02:41) >> Thank you. So uh let's start with this one defining question. You know what was a moment that you realized that monogamy wasn't for you? >> I would say since I was a kid in a sense >> but um I think you go through different journeys with it. I think I grew up in spaces uh I mean I I I had access to people who had unconventional relationships and that that worked for them.
(03:06) uh you know in in my parents' generation of people uh and then subsequently in college and things certain friends who older people who are my friends. So I did see models of it around me and yet of course I could see the conventional idea of monogamy playing out through me when I felt like a failure if I was not able to be if if you know in a relationship I would cheat I would always feel bad and I would come and tell my partner I would I wouldn't hide it >> but but there was guilt attached to it and there was a >> failure aspect attached to it
(03:38) >> and I think that over time somewhere it shifted but at the same time like I said the seed of it was always there because even When I was 13, my then boyfriend I had a long-distance relationship. I told him that listen, >> I will always flirt with other people because that's just my nature. But that has nothing to do with you not being special or them being >> them being over special or anything.
(04:00) It's just the way I relate to people, you know. >> Was there one defining moment though which made you feel that you could have multiple partners? >> I think um I had them even in school. I remember suddenly in one phase feeling like I was in love with two people and then I said, "Oh, wow. You can be in love with two people.
(04:17) How that's so crazy." And now, >> how old were [laughter] you? >> I was 14 at the time. And funnily enough, my brother's my brother's six years older. And my brother's friend, >> unbeknown to her that I was going through it. She was also going through the same thing. And you know, she had come and spoken to me about it.
(04:33) So I realized oh this is not this is a very common thing that happens or not common like for everybody but >> not so uh uncommon that it's the only I'm the only human being who's going through it. M >> so I think that was a kind of defining moment when I realized that oh it's possible to have that >> right >> and after that I think I just um I experienced that aspect of it more through friendships because my friendships were very like my female friendships I was so close to them and they meant so much to me that I feared
(05:08) the breakups of those spaces more than anything there was a fight or anything with my girlfriends I would really feel like that would shatter my world but >> a boyfriend going was not such a shattering idea. >> Yeah. >> So somewhere it was also realizing that what am I seeking then a depth of safety connection feeling seen and an unconditional kind of love that um that is not rulebased you know >> because no two friendships are the same.
(05:36) >> Correct. So I think that there was a basic understanding of it in me but it developed slowly slowly slowly over time and over also it being something that was discussed and talked about maybe more openly and more people expressing >> um a different way of living >> right so does that mean [snorts] uh you were the you are the kind of person who does not you're non-committal as so as to say you don't like to commit uh >> yeah I would say that is definitely a part of it I I I mean there is a part of me that doesn't like to commit
(06:10) to a future that I don't already know and nobody knows in that sense. >> Okay. So what I was trying to ask you is that so do you think like uh you do not like to be in a committed relationship? >> Yeah. I think for me I don't understand how can you have a commitment to something that you when you don't know the future.
(06:33) That was always my problem that when you go into a friendship, you're not committing immediately saying we are going to be friends for lifelong. >> You are recognizing the fact that there is a sense of lovingness that you have towards each other. There's a connection you feel. It feels like something that will be there in your life, but you are not committing to that and then building >> false boundaries around it.
(06:52) you're letting it evolve and become what it needs to be, >> you know, and you learn from each other's temperaments and each other's [clears throat] way of being. Even in friendships, you know, you you could end up doing something that hurts your friend, then they adjust their expectation, then they do something that hurts you, they then you talk about it.
(07:09) You you move through those things and you learn to understand each other with the foundation of I love you, you love me. And yes, there will be things that will not feel easy and normal, but >> we [snorts] get each other and we're willing to see where it goes. So my commitment can only be towards seeing where it goes.
(07:28) >> So was it like a heartbreak that led you to an open relationship or something? >> No, I think all it's the opposite. I feel like I have led monogous relationships because I think I felt like that was the only answer to a success like that was a successful relationship >> that that was a sign of a successful relationship.
(07:47) So it was the opposite because I never felt that um I I didn't feel like I never believed that anything is forever in any case >> and not from a broken space of I mean of course psychologically if you want to take it back yeah my parents have separated this that but >> I don't have that feeling when it comes to so many other relationships I don't have that feeling when it comes to love in general like even if I love someone romantically >> I will always love That love is not going to go away once you love someone. It's basically to me
(08:19) love is a recognition that >> we have a soul bond. >> Whether that's friendship, whether that's that you feel like family, whether it's that you're a romantic partner, it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah. >> That uh relationship dynamic can change, but the feeling that connected you remains. >> Yeah. >> You don't have that feeling with everybody on the planet.
(08:38) >> Yeah. >> So, >> got it. So when you when you talk about open relationships, how do you really tackle jealousy in open relationships? >> I guess you have to go through it. I mean I think I was probably in a space where through most of my life I didn't have jealousy that as an experience that I had because I think I was tackling more of my own insecurities of feeling like it's imposter syndrome, right? If I was with somebody that I liked, I would eventually feel like >> maybe they are going to they like me because of some idea of
(09:14) what they think I am. And when they realize I'm not what they think they want me to be, they won't like me. >> It was never about someone else coming into the picture because >> I also think I've had very deep connections with people again like friends or whoever whoever meets me. I understand the effect I have on them.
(09:33) I understand the importance of my my >> energy in their lives just as I see theirs in mine. >> But this was this was something where um >> I lost the chain of thought what we were talking about. >> No, saying that it was jealousy I was talking. >> So the Yeah. So this was something that my my focus was more on me feeling like that bubble for them is going to burst about how they think I'm amazing when I'm not which was my imposter syndrome but it was never about other people.
(10:03) >> Yeah. >> And I experienced that much later in life and it came very solidly and very uncomfortably. >> You mean the imposter syndrome? >> The jealousy part. >> Okay. >> The experiencing jealousy came to me in like 2020. You actually experienced jealousy in an open relationship? >> Yes.
(10:26) And it was it was me not only dealing with the jealousy but more importantly dealing with the judgment I had towards feeling jealous because I had created an identity saying I never get jealous. I never get jealous. >> Yeah. >> So then when it happened I'm like how can I feel jealous? How can I was so upset that I was feel I was so angry that I was feeling jealous that I couldn't even deal with the jealousy.
(10:45) I had to first deal with my judgment on the jealousy. >> Yeah. >> You get it? So that took a while but what it did is that it allowed me and I also had a partner and a friend and a person who so close to me who was holding my hand through it saying listen you are going to feel it and I will be the trigger for it but I'm not the cause of it and I'm here holding your hand >> it is something you have to grow through >> and it'll show up for you because you need to grow past it.
(11:11) >> Yeah, >> but I'm not the cause and >> this is not about me. this is something that you need to feel and you haven't felt and you suppress. >> So, how did you deal with that when you told your partner that you're feeling jealous? So, you open about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it was more I mean even if I didn't say it, it was obvious enough in my being.
(11:30) So, >> uh but yeah, so it was a journey of constantly dealing with it and like I said the self judgment for being jealous for being shut down for being passive aggressive you don't like how you are in that space and especially when you don't justify that. I think in a lot of relationships jealousy has been justified because that's a part of a conventional construct of relationships where you're allowed to be jealous >> but to me I would say jealousy is normal but it's not justified it it is reflecting something that needs work in
(11:59) you >> you know but it is not something that the more you justify it the more you're perpetuating >> yeah it could be your insecurities while growing up for example >> absolutely yeah >> or things things related to your childhood >> trauma for example >> and It is essentially because we are not encouraged to um there is a society has for the last however many centuries it's been about competitiveness.
(12:24) >> Everything is comparison. So we don't know how to hold space for multiple things happening simultaneously. >> So just because somebody loves another person doesn't mean that your connection with them is different. And ironically enough, this is the conversation I would have with people saying, "If I love you >> and if I'm with someone else, >> are you feeling like my relationship with you is changing? Is anything shifting between you and me where you feel like I'm showing up less?" And they would say, "No." So I'm like, "So then
(12:51) what is the problem?" >> Right? It's in your head. If I didn't tell you something was going on, you wouldn't even know. >> Yeah. >> But I think this conventional society has termed it that sharing space with another partner is not acceptable. >> Exactly. It's just been made unacceptable because it means constantly going through turmoil and people don't want to do that and I respect that.
(13:11) I understand that not everybody has to go into a just like we were talking about earlier >> subest to to want to go dive deep into the self. >> Similarly, it's not everybody's quest to want to >> challenge life and open it up to expand it further. That's my quest. Which is why I keep saying this misunderstanding that I'm propagating it as the way to be. Not at all.
(13:33) I'm just saying that's how I am and that's how I am exploring life right now. I have always said that my point of saying open means I will allow life to take me in whichever direction without there being an imposed idea of how it should be. >> So tomorrow if I fall in love and I feel like I'm naturally feeling monogous to someone that's also fine.
(13:53) >> Yeah. Because that's how you're feeling at that time. It's not about me committing to something before it even is a reality for me. M >> from what I'm understanding is that you don't like to be put you don't like to put yourself in boxes because usually in society even when we get married lawyer doctors check yeah career sorted tick so that's the way even women have been brought up right and the more you put people into boxes or you put yourself into boxes the more chances are that you're going to actually be reactionary and do something
(14:25) just for the sake of like being >> against your personality or your individual being of what you want to bring to the table. >> Which is why for me it's like no I have to figure out and be accountable and walk on this path knowing that I am choosing to explore what is it that I would like what is it that I would want.
(14:45) >> Yeah. So when you meet somebody do you make the first move in telling them that uh that okay I I'm looking for an open relationship or does it does it naturally happen? It kind of naturally happens I think by you just attract people like that >> possibly also that no but it's not always that there are there are there are times when I've attracted people who don't understand what I'm talking about and they're like what is this like I don't understand this then I'm not interested >> okay >> that's also totally fair and it happens
(15:11) but um >> uh but by and large I think that there is um I think I've been lucky to generally attract people who have always had a sense of most people in my life who at whatever stage and form they've come they've remained in my life >> as a friend as a person that >> connects from time to time I rarely have people in my life who've just fallen away and >> who have no warmth or connection or love >> uh for me and vice versa.
(15:42) So >> yeah. So tell me what belief about love u that you once believed probably no longer exists for you today >> cuz as as people we keep evolving and so do our perspectives about different things in life >> different things in life it's about relationships it could be about love it could be about career it it could be about spirituality it could be about anything because we're constantly evolving what you were 10 years back the shahana you were 10 years back you're not the same today and what you're going to be 10 years later you're not going to
(16:09) be the same person >> absolutely >> so what is that belief about of that you once believed that no longer exists. >> I suppose this only I think this idea that uh love is uh meant to um yeah be lifelong or be okay let's put it this way. I think that there is a there is a slight there's a romanticizing of romance and falling in love and that feeling >> which I have always had.
(16:47) I like that initial phase. I like that the the the excitement of the newness of something and the passion that you feel in that moment and >> so but there is a tendency that I've had to romanticize that part and then then obviously there comes a disappointment because that doesn't last that is just an initial pull >> to then go in deeper and see what is really the meat in in the connection right >> so I think that is the thing that I've let go of uh where I'm is it that you don't reach that stage or you you've let go of it deliberately. No, I will reach
(17:22) that stage each time. But I'm saying to let go of it knowing that this is just it's like saying you cannot have that is just the design of it. So you will have the gillbu every time in the first rain >> but you have to know is special because >> yeah because you understand the experience then don't be attached to that that is just a stepping stone into finding the other longlasting connections that that are holding you together as two individuals you know
(18:07) whether that is common beliefs about life or value systems or your spirituality or maybe the fact that you connect to each other emotionally and you understand each other without words. I mean it could be various things or that you like um exploring travel with a certain kind of comfort that you don't have with anyone else.
(18:27) It could be various factors >> but then you have to go into those aspects. So I think I've learned to let go of the romanticizing of that initial phase and expecting that to last because honestly if that was lasting I would be exhausted. >> Anybody would you cannot keep up that level of adrenaline that you have in the beginning through a relationship.
(18:50) >> So does that mean you practice detach detachment? >> Yes. Yes. >> Because I feel like detachment needs to be practiced. It has to be practiced >> because it cannot be just taught like that or you have to keep practicing it. >> Yes. You have to keep reminding yourself. So in every moment I'm which is why for me it's something that is still applicable.
(19:08) If I meet someone today I can feel all that thing coming where you know you you want to create stories or and the other part of your mind already knows that this is this is a uh involuntary reaction almost you know. So, but you have to learn to be able to watch that. Let that feeling play out because you can't control a feeling.
(19:28) Let the feeling not take over you completely and not make it a story. Don't make it an expectation because the distance between a feeling and an expectation is you believing that feeling. >> You can feel a feeling without believing it. >> The minute you start believing the feeling, it becomes a story >> and an expectation. >> Got it. >> So, that is would be the thing that I've got.
(19:47) >> Amazing. So we also read of course about you that you also dated Milan Sman at a very young age. You had a 21 year old so as almost a 21 [snorts] year old age gap. I think you had you were in your early 20s and he was in his 40s that time. >> So do you still believe like in love and commitment and how did that firstly tell us that how did you kind of how did that all happen for you and what did that teach you? Did did that relationship teach you something that you are today? So actually one of the things that uh I
(20:15) [clears throat] guess I it's never come up somehow but now that we were talking about this it's an important aspect >> the relationship I was in before I was with >> Midland >> uh was with a he's still a very dear friend of mine but you know we were together for I think a year and a half two years maybe at the time >> and uh I had had you know since my childhood I'd have had a lot of relationships uh and there was always a lot of pain that followed all relationships in a sense.
(20:46) But what I realized at that point was that I suddenly realized it's until I don't know how to love myself, I am not going to feel loved in a relationship >> because no matter how much somebody is doing something from their perspective, I will not be able to receive it and I'll feel judged and I'll feel small and I'll feel uh insecure because I'm not feeling good about myself.
(21:10) So that realization came around that time and I broke up with my then boyfriend saying that I'm realizing that this is a me problem and until I resolve this nothing is going to work so I need to spend time by myself to start working on loving myself because I actively didn't like myself.
(21:28) It's a it's a different thing if you are kind of non-committal to yourself or you don't know anything about yourself and then maybe you find the real love towards yourself and you're like oh today now I've started >> and what led you to not liking yourself >> just this I guess this kind of imposttor syndrome feeling like everybody else is better you know I looked up to my parents I looked up to my brother I looked up to my friends everybody in my mind was like way cooler way better more though I was very popular and I was loved by everybody all my life so it's
(21:56) not like I ever felt that I didn't get that position. >> I would I would call that is self-sabotage. >> It is 100% >> self-sabotage and those limiting beliefs about yourself that >> major major uh selfworth issues and major um imposter syndrome. >> Yeah. >> Major like basically it was as if all the attention I would get I needed to justify it and it didn't and I had to almost not say that it was not justified and therefore not real >> you know.
(22:25) >> Yeah. So I did I mean and I struggled with that for a long period of life. I have the date tattooed that shifted me towards loving myself. >> So >> so I think that's what was the thing. >> Funnily enough I said that to my partner and we broke up and then >> two weeks later I got into this relationship with Milinda and that had a long history to it and all that.
(22:47) So which is why I didn't think too much about it. >> But you knew him from before. >> We Yes. because I had I had found his number online and I wanted to write him letters and then I started texting him and then he started texting back and then we had some six years of texting. In the meantime, of course, I became an actress and this that.
(23:06) So, >> we had like a kind of long communication and journey of knowing each other in different ways and but >> um and then at some point we were both single and we connected again and then we decided to meet and >> you know this happened. So what it did was that that that specific relationship for me was also a very testing period because when you're already aware of the fact that you don't love yourself and you need to be by yourself but then you put yourself again in a relationship it is going to reflect back all your insecurities
(23:41) >> are going to come out. Yeah. >> Hard of course. >> So that's what you know it was that was the purpose of that relationship as well along with >> trying to teach you something. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Because post that is when actually I stopped being in a in a conventional relationship. After that I realized that this it's not it's not it's not for me and I am lying when I tell people that this is what I can offer.
(24:08) I cannot offer that because I don't believe in it. >> It's it's about me not believing that I can tell you where I will how I will love you two months later or two years later. >> I can have an idea sitting here right now. But when we live through those two years is when we'll know what happens. >> So that relationship basically what you're trying to say is it taught you that you probably weren't meant for just being with one person and that you had to explore.
(24:31) >> I would say that was a that was a turning point because of everything else that came before that. Yeah. >> You know so it was me really facing the fact facing the realization I already had >> but having come into I mean it was still we were still together for four years. It was not some casual relationship in any way, but >> it was um [clears throat] it brought out uh all the things that I needed to work through, >> you know, >> and and and I think that was the invitation that I brought to myself >> to want to and and and I don't mean it
(25:05) in a way where it was uh it was not a uh it was a really wonderful relationship. So I don't mean it in terms of like oh it was some toxic relationship and I'm saying like oh I'm grateful that it happened. No, no. It was a very nice relationship. It was very loving right till the end, but we were clearly both being uh shown the things we needed to deal with >> and we could see that neither one of us was responsible for it like it was not a blame thing thankfully because we had that understanding.
(25:33) >> And how easy or difficult was it to have that conversation with him on an open relationship or was he also like this is what he wanted? >> No, the thing is I I didn't know that at that time. I didn't even know that that was even perhaps a possibility. >> So it it was I kept trying to make myself monogous and thinking that that is that is the fix to everything.
(25:57) >> Yeah. >> And it was only at the end of the relationship that I realized that okay no this is not what it's about. So after that I was single for about a year and a half which was the time I needed which I wanted to take back when I was 21 but I didn't do or 22 >> and so when I had that time after this period then I think I had the realization that >> okay I don't want to do things in a conventional way I want to be more honest to myself and the reason why it hasn't been so is because I wasn't honest with myself. I hadn't recognized
(26:28) this part of myself. And that was something that I would notice that because there's so much pressure put on sexual fidelity. >> Yeah. >> That every other aspect of what you give in a relationship is is forgotten when it is weighed out with sexual fidelity. >> Yeah. And I found that very unfair because I would see that there was so much dependence on the affection and love and presence that I brought to the relationship.
(27:03) But just because I would come and tell you that yes, I up, >> it would suddenly >> distance you and and and make you forget all of that. >> So I'm like fragile because there's so much else you bring right into a relationship. It's not just about being physically intimate or with a partner but you bring in you pour your emotions. >> Yeah.
(27:25) You bring presence, you bring time, you bring energy, you bring love, you bring uh >> togetherness in so many other ways. And uh >> so >> yeah, >> I think that was also part of it. I think that there is something about that nature of possessiveness that makes you completely blind to everything else and I didn't want that. So the next relationship that I had therefore was then a open relationship but that was also a different kind of open relationship but yeah >> and what's that different kind >> meaning in that sense I was still I was still within conventions
(27:55) >> I didn't realize it but I was still like okay you are my primary partner we are primary partners but if life were to happen we have the space that doesn't mean something has to happen that also doesn't mean that anything that happens is okay because it's about taking accountability >> or maybe certain you're trying to say that maybe there are certain boundaries that you had set >> there were certain boundaries in that also for my because of my partner I think whatever he also felt comfortable and I also did and but what I realized
(28:22) is that what I wanted to explore was not having boundaries and yet sometimes you start with making boundaries because you have to move step by step so maybe that was the relationship where I where I needed initial boundaries and then when that relationship got over that was only purely because of distance and like I had to come back to India and this that whatever >> but then I realized that okay why am I even then with the next person I was with I realized that why am I even making this this construct that no we
(28:53) are primary because that's the same thing that I'm fighting when I'm saying why are we deciding what it is >> because then it's like like any other conventional relationship >> exactly exactly so then I'm like just because you're changing the parameters of your of your rules doesn't mean that yeah your label doesn't mean that it's not >> uh it's not confined or defined >> so that is basically it that my exploration has been to try not to define it as much as possible and to really let itself reveal itself to you.
(29:23) >> Got it. Have you ever cheated in an open relationship? >> Cheated in an open relationship in in what way? >> Like cheated on your partner by because open relationshipships are meant to where you are honest about your feelings. >> Right. Right. >> To someone. >> So you're saying cheated in terms of not >> not discussing disclosing something? >> No.
(29:44) No. Uh or has it happened the other way around ever? >> Not that I know of. No. No. >> Okay. >> It's not been there. >> Right. And have you ever lost someone uh because you refused to just commit to them? >> Uh >> because obviously your way of course unconventional. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that's that's something that see uh willing to explore.
(30:10) I think even when I was younger, I always felt what is the point of me feeling like I have tied you to a constru construct that makes you not run away. I would rather set you free and say go run and my heart will be beating hard anticipating that you won't come back. But if you're not meant to come back, then you're not meant to come back.
(30:28) Then I might as well go through it now. What is the point of me holding you back for that? Me holding you back is not going to stop that from happening if that's what it's meant to be. Right? M >> so that has always been my thing where I'm like no however hard it is I must set you free and you must feel free because otherwise what is the point >> you must feel free to explore your life the way you feel is right and that is only for you to decide not for me >> right >> but that is where I keep saying that with great freedom comes great responsibility most people see free
(30:59) people and they're like oh you can do whatever you want no you can't because you have nobody to blame when you're free you have nothing and nobody to blame except yourself. >> Yeah. >> So you really have to watch and see what are the choices you're making and why are you making it and you have only yourself uh to reflect with to be responsible for for the choices that you make.
(31:18) >> So does it feel like a lot of pressure sometimes because as you said right like it's it's like the selft talk that you have to give yourself that these are my decisions. >> No it's not okay I give a I give a good analogy to this. I and I had this kind of realization in 2020 at some point where I said you know every now and then we go through moments when you feel like who am I what am I why am I this who I I'm lost you know in life >> so I had one of those moments and I suddenly realized we create so many
(31:43) templates in our lives thinking that it'll make our life easier I'm a chai person I'm a black coffee person but actually why do you need to decide that if you were to allow yourself to make that decision in that moment from what your body and your mind is feeling It's a lot simpler, but the idea of having to make a decision in every moment >> feels like it might be a big deal.
(32:06) So, we create templates, >> but those templates are not helping because sometimes you're having black coffee when you're feeling acidic or you haven't eaten when actually your body is asking you for maybe milk and or or something else or another drink. >> But these are because you're following the template because you've decided it makes your life easier.
(32:23) >> Yeah. you are actually not present and it's much easier to make that choice daily and every day. Again, like you said, it's about unlearning the fact that the template is easier. The minute you stop thinking that the template is easier, actually being present and making those choices on a daily basis is much easier.
(32:40) >> Yeah. Or maybe don't even think that you have a template for example. Exactly. Why do you even have to say why do you have to say that there is a template? You just be in the moment. >> Go with the flow. It's like flow like a river. like the ocean or the river >> and just be present in that moment. Correct.
(32:56) To take the decisions that you want to that make you happy and there is nothing no prior kind of decision making that can ever >> make you make the right decision in that moment. No matter if it's the same idea as what you thought you going to commit to or not but the feeling of it will still be different and the motivation of it will still be different in that moment.
(33:14) >> Yeah. Right. Why do you think people jump into relationships? Do you think people jump into relationships because of boredom uh and loneliness? >> That's a a huge uh spectrum I would say. But definitely there is fear. Let's I say boredom. I feel like boredom people can still deal with boredom underlying feeling is actually fear.
(33:41) >> So I would say it's fear largely because there is a fear of being alone. There is a fear of missing out on things that have been prescribed to us as >> as things that make you happy, that make you feel >> fuller, that make you these are all again these have the conditionings that have been there for so long that we don't even see them as affecting us directly, but they do, >> you know.
(34:14) And so I think that that was my main thing with the first time this conversation ever came up. My question was only this that I only I am not saying any one way is the right way to be in a relationship because I don't believe in being prescriptive. I think each and every human being is different. Not one diet, not one lifestyle, not one way of dressing, not one way of eating, nothing is >> is uh prescriptive.
(34:38) But it is imperative that we ask ourselves why we're doing what we're doing. >> So if we choose to marry, if we choose to be in a partnership and in every stage ask like you said 10 years ago what you did to two years ago what you did is not the who you are today. >> Absolutely. >> So the choices you made and the reasons you made something a choice two years ago will not be applicable to you today.
(34:58) So today when you're making the same choice again don't go into template mode but ask yourself today what are you looking for >> from a relationship? Today, what are you looking for from your career? Today, what are you looking for from your exercise? Today, what are you looking from from the cup of coffee that you're sipping? >> Yeah.
(35:13) >> You have to ask yourself that. That's all I'm saying. >> Yeah. And I just feel like people just forget being in the moment or enjoying the moment >> because they try to put themselves into boxes. >> Yeah. Every everywhere you please your boss, you're trying to put yourself in a box because you're trying to be a certain way because you're dawning many hats, right? You're also a mother, you're also a daughter, you're also a friend.
(35:35) And we are constantly seeking validation. Why? Because we've not been taught how to validate ourselves. >> That's why and I feel like external validation is something that we keep seeking but we do not we forget the internal validation that we need with our own selves. >> Absolutely. And that that in fact gets more confused with external validation.
(35:51) >> So you have to kind of keep coming back to it or no matter like I said I had a life full of external validation and I still thought I was useless. >> Yeah. That was my issue, my journey with myself that I had to be on. >> Correct. Right. What are your biggest fears uh when it comes to love and relationships? >> I suppose. Yeah.
(36:13) I I would say I still have a big uh fear or wounding of somebody disappearing on me like if they cut you off and >> it's abandonment. It's called fear of abandonment. >> Fear of abandonment. Yeah. And um it's a lot better today. But I think um by and large because I've been again lucky to have people still be part of my life in some form or the other when people cut off completely.
(36:39) >> I do find that very difficult and uh you know there is a kind of existential >> anx was it all useless was it nothing and you know all that stupid questioning that happens inside you >> that does happen. So that's something that I think is a fear that I'm working through. >> Yeah. Um [clears throat] and um and I think uh yeah I think there is a you know um I think I've since I was young I did really I was always fascinated by this word uncon unconditional love >> and because maybe a part of me felt it in various moments
(37:20) >> and yet you don't feel it all the time obviously it's very difficult to feel unconditional love really >> at least consistently. So I do feel that this is one part that I'm learning and moving towards because there's been so many points when I have felt love and then I feel um hurt or disappointed by >> it shifting from the other side or >> you know or there being circumstantially or even if it shifts from my side you know there's a kind of disappointment from it >> and I think that is also another thing that would be a fear that the pain that
(37:56) comes with um >> not having the same reciprocation. Pain coming from rejection, let's say >> or not having the same sort of reciprocation from the other person because because you would invest yourself totally and fully into a relationship. That's what you would call unconditional love. >> Exactly.
(38:12) So to me now that is the part that I'm getting to where I will show up the way I want to today because just today as I'm feeling and what I'm expressing is enough. I don't care what happens after that whether they reciprocate or not whether >> I will show up only to the extent that feels good to me to do without >> it it creating a narrative or an expectation forward.
(38:32) >> Yeah. See a lot of the things that we've been speaking right now it challenges very traditional expectations expectations that society puts on us and especially women. >> So that brings me to the point of like have you ever been called difficult just because you're a woman? Because >> admit it that we're still living in a very patriarchal society and you know speaking your mind out wearing a c wearing a certain dress a certain way or behaving in a certain way is uh looked down upon even today.
(39:00) >> Yeah. >> So what have been what has been your experience? That's actually very interesting that I know that in a sense I would have imagined or maybe even I've anticipated being called difficult but I actually haven't and people have somehow been very accepting of me and I feel like you know how we were talking about design earlier and I feel like part of my design which I say often is that because I have so much self-doubt and so much self-criticism that the universe will never bring it from the outside to
(39:28) me because there's enough of it inside me. M >> so it's probably me that has always felt like I'm difficult because I'm too or I'm too much for people >> but the world is not necessarily doing that. The world has actually been very accepting of me which is also why I am who I am today because every time I try to shrink people around me have >> uplifted >> uplifted me and and and and told me no be who you are we love you for who you are.
(39:56) >> So in that sense I've had the opposite. I've not had people uh and across the board like even you know even when I've owned parts of myself if I've dressed a certain way and like I grew up in Delhi now if I'm in a ra and I'm I can talk to a ricksha guy I don't feel it >> playing a part I feel that today people are able to >> respond to you at a energy level at a soul level >> at your frequency >> at your frequency correct >> yeah have you ever been punished >> uh professionally for speaking your mind because obviously you're bold you're
(40:28) courageous you're fierce you speak your mind. >> So have you been punished professionally at the professional level when you've worked with people your co- actors your producers? No, I don't think those kind of people those kind of things have never come to me or I have never come to them or I don't know what but >> I don't think that I would ever be in a space where I cannot >> uh my choices in my film space has also always been very instinctive >> and um much as I'm a people pleaser in many ways I also am uh somebody who
(40:58) needs to be able to say what I'm feeling >> and especially in a creative space I think the whole idea is to be able to voice >> uh your opinion and or anything. So I I've not felt that. >> Okay. Um but yeah of course in a film set in general you do see that there is a kind of there's a dance and a choreography of egos happening but that's in any team that's in any corporate space also not only in films I would say you work you're in a job in a profession you're in a business >> I think that pretty much >> so that to me is interesting but it
(41:32) doesn't it's never felt like something that curbed my uh either what I wanted to say or that having said something that I I was punished Got it. I always wonder about this thing that why are women expected to sacrifice more than men in relationships? You feel that? >> Because traditionally society has >> put so many um [snorts] ifs and buts that you have to be a certain way.
(41:56) >> Yeah. >> And oh, it's the woman sacrifice that a woman gets married to a guy, she has to leave her home. Correct. A woman gets married to a guy, she has to change her surname. >> Correct. >> Right. >> You have a child, then you're the primary caregiver. All of that. >> All of that. Yeah. >> So like my question is why are women expected to do so much more in a relationship? >> I would say sacrifice more than even men in relationships.
(42:22) >> I don't know the answer to that. I sometimes I think uh it might be because um I don't know at this point you asking me that question is making me feel like feminine energy let's say if it's shaky energy it has a certain expansiveness and I don't think that the shiv tatwa in the men and the the witness element in the men has been encouraged enough they have also dealt with the the the pressures of patriarchy in terms of them having to take on roles that they necessarily did not want to take on being the provider being the earner
(42:52) being the uh taking on the kind of stress that comes with it. You know, making choices for >> there's a certain level of sacrifice that they've had to do in a certain millu in a certain way. Keeping the peace in the family in many ways, you know, >> uh taking calls on like larger, you know, dealing with in-laws, parents, you know, their depending on if they're older, younger, their siblings, lots of things.
(43:16) So, >> I think that those are pressures I've seen a lot of men really crumble under and really feel that. and similarly women who've also >> given into those roles. I do think that essentially it has been because over maybe millennia over centuries there was a kind of um external curtaining but also an internal curtailing in women like almost like a fear of oneself where you you're scared of your own um uh unexpected or or um unpredictable uh energy and glory.
(43:55) You know, women women are unpredictable in the sense of not in a not in a way that's bad in a in a >> creativity can only come from unexpected stuff from you know so that element is there in women and I think that they've had to >> curb that some >> curb that both externally and internally and similarly men also have and I feel like today maybe it's shifting a little bit but there's also been a bit of a phase of women losing both the nurturing part and then being rebellious and saying we want things differently.
(44:26) So then the point of connecting with men has also become less >> because they're like >> this is also wrong that is also wrong like taking care of you is also wrong because that's oldfashioned but then you know being uh um expecting like nurturing is also wrong because that is also oldfashioned and like letting you be independent means that you you know not letting you be independent but I'm saying um [clears throat] there has been a tendency also for women to be reactionary in many ways and be avoidant of lots of things you know like
(45:03) >> I mean I'm giving a silly example but even like >> let's say sometimes when we're in a space where like a woman can almost be proud of not knowing how to cook whereas it's a basic human thing like I don't think any human being should be particularly proud or >> judge themselves for it but it's not a man and woman thing anyway Exactly.
(45:26) >> It's just societal conditioning that makes the woman want to be like, I'm not going to do this >> because it's expected of me. >> Yeah. Because the society puts the woman in a box that she is the >> one to do that to provide >> to provide nurture and the man is a bread earner. So I I believe it comes from that which is why I think that right now it's a great time for us to be able to balance that out.
(45:48) Let us not like completely kill that part of uh being a woman that that the nurturing and the thing comes naturally to us as well. But we can you can choose how you want to negotiate that with your your ambition, your desire for your own life. You know the things that you want for yourself.
(46:06) In fact, most of the times I say the biggest problem is that women are not thinking at all or making time for their own joy and their own happiness which is not connected to any role that they play in anyone's life. >> Absolutely. Because all of that is neglected and that all comes last. >> And it the same holds for a man. I don't think a man has been taugh taught to look at themselves without thinking about parents, children, wife, friends, brother, sister like for them what are you doing for yourself in a day that is purely for you to replenish yourself
(46:35) that is for your own joy. >> Yeah. Good. Do you think like successful women intimidate men? >> I think powerful women intimidate men. I don't think all successful women are necessarily powerful. There's a lot of insecure power I mean successful people. >> Uh and not all nonsuccessful on the outside people are not powerful.
(46:58) I've seen any woman basically any person in this case since we're talking specifically about women women any woman who is um sure of themselves and owns who they are >> uh I think is intimidating to men because again like I said that's the shy that has managed to find the >> the grounding of the witness of the sh you know so you have found your shaky within yourself >> and that is intimidating because it's somebody who is grounded in themselves and is therefore able to express themselves exactly the way they wish to
(47:32) be >> and that is intimidating but that is intimidating even when you meet a band like that. >> Yeah, of course. And do you think like society celebrates independent women more than they actually be before they actually become independent? Do you think that's celebrated more in our society just because you're independent, you're successful >> before it's actually something that is >> that true for you? Yeah, I think that there is a but see that's with anything like the same way that when let's say uh career success became important in the
(48:04) capitalized world and you know in the patriarchal world. Even then men were projected to be successful way before they were actually successful or actually had earned that for themselves. You know similarly the same has happened because it's a kind of patriarchal playing out of feminism in a sense you know where you're using the same parameters of patriarchy to judge growth and development for women.
(48:28) you're just changing the gender. >> But the system still works on patriarchy, >> this kind of hierarchical way, which is why because women are not in general. I had I'd had heard this interesting story about how narratives and storytelling if you take it back into history >> when when we were hunter gatherers, the men would go out for hunts, right? So that way of telling stories was linear.
(48:58) women were sitting around and doing multiple things simultaneously. So their storytelling was like but it was a bag of things and then you created the story. So it was not a linear story. It was more abstract. It was fuller. It was like moving between uh this one you know had a child who was crying then we went there but then after that this flower happened then the rain happened then you know it was a much more fluid way of telling stories.
(49:21) That is the essential difference of the of the two energies >> you know and I don't think that that has space yet fully in our world because the world is still patriarchal which means that the world is still looking more black and white more linear more you know yeah so how do you bring in that balance in that energy >> because ultimately it has to balance somewhere otherwise you know the rate of divorces and breakups would not even happen right >> but that's why I keep saying that there is only one uh solution in my mind which
(49:54) is for all of us to unequivocally see that we have to that our journeys are with ourselves. If we choose to work on ourselves then and if we take responsibility for it is great to have partners and friends and family members who hold space for you. I'm very happy to hold space for you if you're if you're going through a point of self-realization or self work where it may be it may create tension sometimes between us but I'm okay to do that if you can take accountability and say I'm sorry I'm going through this
(50:26) >> and I'm sorry it's coming out like this but I'm working on myself >> and I'm sitting with myself and I see what I'm doing. So one is about obviously inner work that you uh >> and accountability >> accountability and open communication you say that okay I'm dealing with this but I I I want to fix it yes >> or I want to do something >> I want to or I'm at least aware of it then what solutions need to come will come and the solutions cannot be based on fixing the external reality >> it cannot you cannot be fixing yourself
(50:53) because you want to fix your marriage that that doesn't work >> you have to fix your marriage not working has to make you realize that there is something that you need to work on yourself for every aspect of your life. >> Yeah. >> This is just one mirror that's closest to you. >> Got it.
(51:09) Tell me what is that one criticism that women receive that men almost never hear. >> Just the excessive uh commentary on appearance. I think that's just something that is so uh common place that >> I don't think there are that many men who are judged for their looks and appearance as much as there are women >> judged for their looks and appearance >> and what can we do as a society to change this because uh you're quite right especially when you look at an arranged marriage setup let's take an example >> the first thing that they would and I I
(51:44) would say judge which is because everybody's judgmental they're judging that how does a woman look >> correct Is she fat? Is she thin? Is she body shaming becomes an issue. So >> what do we kind of do to get out of this? >> I don't know. [laughter] I don't know. I think it's uh the more I mean today, let's say we are in the world of social media where everything is discussed and talked about and sharing of ideas.
(52:07) I think that's the best we can do. Conversations, talking about it, sharing our own opinions, having space for people to argue with you also because only correct. That's the best you can do. Have open dialogue, right? And I mean, what is a privilege that men have that women still don't have? I think there's a certain element, the first thing that came to mind is a certain element of safety.
(52:31) I I think that there is as a woman you have to constantly think about different aspects of safety >> uh which is different for a man. I don't think that they >> operate in the world with that fear that a woman has. They don't know that fear in that sense. >> Uh generally speaking. >> Okay. Got it.
(52:54) And do you think like women support women as much as they claim to be? >> No. >> But that's because you know the thing is it's wounded people cannot support each other unless they are acknowledging of the fact that they are wounded and then they can. But when you're wounded and your wound and there's so much of this thing of like comparison of of creating the illusion of separation and competition between women and >> that it it will play out that way that you will feel the desire to pull someone down or about them or feel >> triggered by them or you
(53:38) So that also happens but I do see that that's something that's shifting. I in my I grew up being quite a tomboy even though my closest friends were all women but I naturally felt a lot easier with men because they were more casual and I think there I always felt the stress around being around only women and that's really shifted over time and it's continuing to shift where I'm seeing that >> when women come into a all women's container or a space like that they're learning now and seeing those old woundings and how they've played a part
(54:09) in separating us from each other Whereas our natural tendency is to uplift each other. >> Correct. >> And um yeah so I think that that's something that is very much different from what it used to be like even five six years back. >> Right. So Shan I was keen to ask you that you know you've challenged a lot of expectations around uh relationships and going the unconventional way uh broken rules and being yourself being bold been fierce >> and also in your career if you look at the kind of roles that you've chosen
(54:46) >> right so that brings me to the question of how have you uh looked at Bollywood right when you get got into acting >> what's the biggest lie uh outsiders believe about Bollywood ollywood because again Bollywood is not for everyone >> right it is it's a cutthroat world >> not everybody can survive that as you said some time back you're dealing with a lot of egos >> there >> and we've also seen instances of nepotism and lot lot of other things that have been discussed >> so what is the biggest lie here in in this Bollywood industry
(55:20) >> outlier >> I would say the biggest lie is thinking that anybody is privileged nobody's privileged in world. That's my belief. >> The only privilege you are only privileged if you're successful and your success is determined by the last thing you did. >> The rate at which public and business can drop you. >> The second that things don't go well, >> the rate at which you are judged across everything that you do, >> no matter whose family you were born in and where you come from, no matter if you came from nowhere and got that and
(55:52) whatever, it takes one second to break it all. M >> that's how fickle uh this this construct is. It is it's construed on various illusions and delusions and um and it's very shortlived. So >> what is the industry reward more? Is it more about talent, luck? Uh is it what you really bring to the table? Like is it networking? What does Bollywood reward today when you have to get into >> I think I because given the fact that it's a business >> at the end of the day it is a business the business only rewards that which
(56:29) brings money into it so if you bring money >> if you if you bring box office >> that is what is >> that's what is rewarded >> but I will also say that I've seen enough instances of people who may be bringing the box office but when it comes to certain kind of work which is you know let's say more quality work or >> slightly more serious work or >> those people would not be chosen for it.
(56:55) So they do also fall out because they are also considered >> commercial successful >> actors you know and not taken seriously in a sense >> but by and large I would say that that's really what it is. It's much more likely that you are a uh successful actor in various super hit films, however pathetic they may be, >> that you will get a chance to be in a meaningful film next because you did because of the box office success than the other way around.
(57:24) >> Right. So, have you ever seen a less talented actor say get a very big role just because of their surname? >> Just because of their surname? Yeah, >> I'm sure it's happened, but I I don't have a recall of it. I have much more recall of the new version of that >> which is people who are have higher following.
(57:48) So whether they're actors or not, just the fact that they have higher following, >> they are being cast not because they necessarily wish to act but because that's the strategy of the platforms where they think >> how do we get maximum reach. So if somebody's known for something else today if like Priyanka is known for her podcast and she's doing superbly and she's got a great following we will come to Priyanka and said do you want to act >> there's nothing wrong with that maybe Priyanka is a great actress that's not
(58:14) the point >> but what are what is your motivation behind coming to her >> not because you saw her perform amazingly well somewhere and thought that she had talent and then you you know combining two elements that has happened so much so many times have I seen and has it happened to me that I have been replaced or other people have been replaced not because the other person was more talented but because they had >> more followers but that that brings me to the question where we were speaking some time back that's why people
(58:41) Bollywood celebrities actually have PR teams behind them >> right which I know you >> which is exactly why I don't want to do it because I feel like tomorrow even if I do it if I know I can given what my Instagram is right now >> just by myself and with the team that I that I sit with to make it more expansive for who I I am >> I could be so big in in the social media world >> and then have people following and wanting to cast me, but I'm not interested in that.
(59:10) I don't want to play that game. >> Yeah. >> I don't value that game. I don't value being valued for a false idea of value. >> Yeah. >> You know, because you bring you I think what you're trying to also say is that you want to bring your authentic side. >> Yeah. I'm saying please please take >> X Y Z from all categories >> and pick the person who's best for the part. Let everybody audition.
(59:32) If on an audition you think someone else is better, please go ahead and take them. That is part of the job. I don't have a problem with rejection. >> So, have you ever lost a role just because you were not very famous? Yeah, I have still it has happened in recent times when you think that you're at the peak of your career and you still are uh being compared to other people >> who have better bigger following than you.
(59:54) >> Yeah. But not as talented. >> But may or may not be as talented. But the fact is that that was the only factor. These are these are projects where you were confirmed. you were meant to be. Everybody on the creative team wanted you and then it's happened because somewhere the commercial heads are the ones taking all the calls and they're the ones who are saying >> n get a bigger >> bigger >> bigger follow.
(1:00:20) But do you think like talent is really overrated in the film industry? >> Not not to the audience. I think the audience has a great value for talent but at the same time see everything is a two-way street. >> Yeah. In a business the businessman is not catering to things that are not working. They will tomorrow if only meaningful cinema became or good quality cinema no matter which you know you can make good quality Bollywood films as well.
(1:00:47) There used to be a time of that as well. >> But if that was actually being valued >> then they would make only that. >> Who is not valuing that? Today we are watching binge watching crap stuff which is becoming a success and therefore everybody knows you hate watching it. >> Yeah. But that's getting into a second season because you hate watching it.
(1:01:03) And because you hate watched it, you're going to watch the second season as well. >> And yet the things that you're like, "Fuck, I really love it and all that." The next time when it comes, you're like, >> so you're also the audience is also creating that, >> right? We are all part of creating that creating the business module, >> right? >> So then what is there to complain? You know, it's not a it's not one person's doing.
(1:01:28) >> Yeah. Have you been ever asked to like change yourself uh by anyone like to be more marketable? >> Like I know because you don't like to put yourself out there. >> Yeah. >> You know, weirdly I actually haven't. This was one of the things when I started I remember my mom was like you know there are certain rules you have to get a portfolio and I'm like I don't want to do it or people will be like you have to be a certain look you know you have to lose weight and I'm like I don't want to do it. Everything for me
(1:01:53) happened in a way where I would have thought that I'd lose out on stuff because of that and I I never did. I have never ever done a project where somebody has asked me to lose weight for the project or groom myself in a certain way which is really unheard of for me. >> Yeah, that's very surprising. >> Very surprising.
(1:02:12) Like >> maybe they know the kind of personality or the kind of person you are. >> Yeah. But still >> they fall for this maybe. But still you know for for certain kind of projects people could have you know people could have >> expected that because of the millu of the world of that film if it was an out- of-ount Bollywood film or whatever or it could have been because of a specific character also or whatever but >> I have never specifically been asked to change >> the way I look yeah thankfully >> that's yeah that's amazing.
(1:02:41) >> Have you ever been told you're too intelligent for mainstream cinema? I have been told that by people who have thought that that is the reason why I didn't do well in mainstream cinema. But it's not come from it's not really come from the industry specifically or >> um but I have heard that from other people >> and I mean I don't know if I agree with it entirely because I I actually see people valuing that intelligence but >> um >> but yeah maybe there is a certain notion I I think what happens is a lot of people have this notion that if you are
(1:03:25) an intelligent actor that means you're a serious actor that means you're so there's been a lot of typ casting of me in that sense where >> uh intelligence has been equated to no sense of humor no comic timing no ability to do lat so many aspects of my life just because I'm intelligent >> my intelligence plays out in my humor it plays out in my goofiness it plays out in you know >> being witty being witty, being you know a great Bollywood dancer.
(1:03:57) It'll play out in everything you know >> but you don't explore that side because you've limited me to being a serious acting you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] What do you think? What uh what uh what's that something that actors complain about uh privately but never publicly admitted? though I realized uh I do have a bit of a dissonance with the actor tribe like I am an actor >> but I think my being is much more that of a director first lady producer like I'm more a team player so I not that actors aren't but >> by and large there is a certain
(1:04:41) >> let's say certain generic attributes to being an actor which I don't fully relate to like >> okay like >> even my insecurities are not act I don't have the actor insecurities in me you know okay >> I'm not desperate for >> getting work in a certain way I'm not insecure about my part I'm not insecure about needing validation I don't need to see what I've done I trust my director if they're okay with it I'm good I don't want to see what I've done I don't need >> I don't need to keep checking how I'm looking I don't have that
(1:05:14) >> I'm there for the pleasure of co-creating >> mm a character in a story. >> So, and that's not to say that actors don't have that, but they they are very caught up with many other things, you know, they also stay away from I mean I'm I'm again like I said, I'm generalizing, but >> they stick amongst themselves.
(1:05:32) It's also the nature of the job. The production is busy doing things all the time. The only time the only people who are actually free on a set from time to time are actors >> whereas everybody else is busy working. >> Yeah. >> Right. At all times. So that also creates that but it is a bit of a mindset thing where actors stick to actors and I am not somebody who's ever been much of a sticking to actors person.
(1:05:56) I like to I'm get more friendly with the production team. Yeah. And of course included in that is the act are the actors as well but >> I do find myself a little distance from that. So maybe I don't really know. >> I don't associate with this question that you asked in terms of what is it that they would secretly not >> got it. >> Uh >> do you enjoy the limelight though? >> No, >> you don't.
(1:06:19) >> I I I really enjoy being told that somebody felt connected to what I did. >> Uh whether I hear it from them in person or whether it is shown through uh reviews or or >> Yeah. Because that's quite contrary to what other actors would say, right? Because most actors >> Yeah. So that's the thing.
(1:06:38) I don't like the spotlight. Like I one of the reasons why I do film acting is because nobody's watching me when I'm working. >> There are 100 people on set, but everybody's doing their own job. >> The only person watching you is the director. That's it. >> And uh you're in a process of collaborating.
(1:06:52) I don't do stage because I'm petrified of being on stage. I don't like all eyes on me. >> I uh don't like go going on stage and talking on the mic. I don't like the spotlight. I like being invisible. I love being in airports where nobody knows who you are and you can observe people and see and like disappear in that or in a cafe [laughter] or really I I am that person.
(1:07:12) I don't I get very now I'm working on it because I also realized that that is also part of your journey. There is a reason why you you became an actor and that the you know and >> product byproduct of that is being in the spotlight. So you have to be okay with being in the spotlight. >> Correct. >> So I've worked on it but it's not something I enjoy. Okay. Wow.
(1:07:33) That's that that's that's that's taken me back like that's quite surprising. >> Yeah. I would much rather that I'm in a room full of people where nobody recognizes me and that we have great conversations than everybody suddenly be like, [gasps] >> "Oh my god, I would I would get so uncomfortable.
(1:07:47) I'd probably leave the room." >> So since your personality is that you don't like the attention so much as you said, >> how difficult or easy was it to actually have your first kiss on the set in front of so many people in front of the whole production crew? that doesn't bother me because again that's like I said uh on set or anything like that it's people are not bothered like it it's something in fact I have a lot of ease on set I'm one of those people who doesn't need a closed uh set and all that I'm like it's like it's a part of a scene like
(1:08:18) any other but I also understand that I have that comfort not everybody may have that comfort including my co- actor may not have it so I don't I appreciate the fact that there are uh systems in place for people to feel comfortable but I don't have that. I've never had that um self-consciousness when it comes to my body and my being in that sense.
(1:08:40) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Great. So tell me what is that one one or two things that uh any actor aspiring actor would have to do if they want to enter Bollywood? >> At this point I have no idea. I mean I joined Bollywood uh n 21 years ago. So I don't know at this I mean even back then I didn't know it was an accident that made me [clears throat] kind of join and there was no system ever in place and even now there's no system.
(1:09:08) So I really feel very lost when I'm asked this question because I genuinely don't know why. >> And why do you say it's by accident? by accident in the sense that there wasn't any uh there weren't like proper channels and roots to kind of approach you know I it was an accident I was sitting and having dinner with my uh theater director and somebody came and said hey you want to act in films right oh a friend of mine is casting for something why don't you go meet her tomorrow and >> and I was like [snorts] yeah yeah sure and then I was like I'm not going to go
(1:09:35) and then my director was like no no you must go and do a meeting in any case then I went to meet her for that film then she's like forget about this film there's another film I think that you would be great for that. Would you want to do it? And Nasil Sha was directing a film.
(1:09:47) I'm like, "Yeah, of course I would like to." And they took a picture and sent it the next day. They were like, "Yeah, can she come and meet him day after tomorrow?" And I'm like, "Okay, great." Then I went and met him. Then he's like, "Okay, 2 days later is the audition. Will you come?" >> Oh, >> I went and did an audition suddenly for for the first time.
(1:10:00) And you know, I'd never done an audition, but it was a part where I didn't have to speak any lines really. >> That was the first audition. >> Yeah. And then I got that. So it happened accidentally like that and then from that many other things just kind of happened. M >> so it I didn't have a system. I was not in an agency.
(1:10:17) I didn't have a coordinator or I didn't go I didn't have to go around >> um to different casting directors and be like is there anything I can try for which is which is unfortunately the reality for 99% of people right because how do you go about it? >> Yeah. >> So I feel bad that there isn't a system in place and I was lucky but that's really not that can't be the way.
(1:10:40) >> Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it was just the right time and right place for you. >> It just kind of happened. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, since we're talking about the industry, let's talk about how are women navigating, you know, women navigating Bollywood. So, do you think actresses have an expiry date in Bollywood? >> I think it's changed now.
(1:10:57) I really do think that it's really come a full 360° in that sense of not just in terms of let's say even more heroine type roles being played by older actors >> uh because they look the part so why not or or stories being created where you have an older and younger uh dynamic or having a whole new set of um uh actresses who were in the ' 60s '7s 80s who have come made comeback but not playing heroin in that sense but playing >> uh gritty age appropriate interesting nuanced characters and being the lead of the show or the film. So that's very
(1:11:39) encouraging and I think that there's a big big change in >> and do you think like actresses are judged on looks more than their performance >> in comparison to men? Yes. But I still think that today there is a great appreciation for performance over uh over looks. So um today I think that that is really the lens through which most audiences are viewing things >> and I appreciate that which is why we don't have a conventionally typically looking >> visual graph of actors and actresses.
(1:12:17) You know, people really love different shapes, sizes, forms, colors, everything. So, it's not it's not it's really based on what they bring to the character. >> And have you ever felt pressure to look a certain way to keep getting work or to keep or to maybe uh you know, do a role that your director asked you to do? >> No.
(1:12:38) >> No. >> No. Again, like I said, I'm I'm lucky maybe that way, but I've not felt >> the need to specifically be a certain way. Neither have I been asked to do that, nor have I particularly feted. Yes, I mean I'm not going to lie about the fact that there is that there is a certain desire to want to look good >> in front of the camera in in whatever way.
(1:13:03) And I mean um I have myself had a kind of uh uh relationship with my body in terms of >> feeling out out of sorts when I'm bigger and then trying to lose weight and I still weigh myself every day. I'm I don't live by that. I don't not eat things or do things in a sense that dictate how I weigh and how I look. Yeah. >> But I know I can see that there is this obsession with >> because there is a lot of pressure right for >> but I never felt that maybe it's just something that was there because one knows about the pressure that people
(1:13:38) feel I specifically never felt the pressure but maybe there was some part of you know somewhere a seed gets sewn that maybe you don't get as much work because you don't look a certain way >> you know you don't think that's there because when you look at say actors like a priyanka chopra but I don't think I don't think it's to do with that I don't look a certain certain way.
(1:13:56) It's to do with, like you said, it's it's the persona you play. >> Yeah. >> So, it's not just I could look that way. I've been in many phases of my life having had a really incredible body and you know, >> but that makes no difference because my personality is so strong >> that that's what people would respond to and react to if at all.
(1:14:19) and not if I were to actually be much more um >> Yeah, I know what you're saying because people accept you for >> who you are and what you really bring to the table which is more the personality trait and not necessarily just the looks. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I get what you're saying. Since you've worked with a lot of actors, I was keen to ask you tell me what's the one thing that Priyanka Chopra >> does exceptionally well that explains her success.
(1:14:45) I think she's a very sincere person >> in her work. She has she is very driven >> and what I appreciate about her is that her ambition has always been in line with her um what she values. She has value for quality. She values uh creativity. She values exploration. So for a person like her, she has leveraged and used her position and her power to do many other things even to have a uh production house that did so many regional films and that was very specifically her point of focus.
(1:15:25) People who've worked with her >> closely I know that she's very thorough in terms of she herself sits on everything she will go >> you've worked with her as well have you? >> No I haven't worked with her I I haven't worked with her. >> Okay. But um I I mean I've known her somewhat through the social circles and um but I again known lots of people who have worked with her and I think that that's something very admirable about her that she >> uh her integrity and her uh uh sincerity with her work.
(1:15:58) >> Very hardworking, very committed. >> Yeah. >> And that's and her ambition is sitting on the foundation of this which is which is what's amazing. >> Yeah. And I kind it shows the kind of stuff that she's been doing, >> you know, moving countries and the >> and I think she's also chosen to do a lot of things her own way.
(1:16:17) I mean, back in the day, she was not someone who was out there partying and doing things. She never she was much more reserved, kept to herself and >> uh I mean, she's social, but you know, she's always had a inner circle of friends, people. She keeps her her nurturing and nourishing parts of her life very >> close and uh and and values that space a lot.
(1:16:41) So I think she's also done things differently. >> Right. Have you worked with Faranakar? >> Yes >> you have. I think yeah you did. Rock on. Correct. Of course. So what's something about Faranakar that audiences would never guess since you've had an experience working with him? >> Farane is hilarious. I mean, I think some part of it, but I don't think it comes out as much.
(1:17:01) Unless you know him socially, you won't know how funny he is. >> And he's a complete jokester and pun master and >> yeah, >> just constantly coming up with really funny oneliners and jokes and and is also a very very caring person. Really really genuinely caring. >> Okay. Awesome. Tell me a side of Capil Sharma that audiences rarely get to see because we all know him as the funny guy who makes the world laugh.
(1:17:32) >> He's an extremely intelligent man. >> Very intelligent and very present. I I was very surprised to see that somebody who is so used to >> um [clears throat] adoration and you know attention and constant conversations and that he is so present to each and every conversation that you have and engages with it with so much >> uh intelligence and presence you know and that that to me was something that I was >> because when you're so used to adoration you kind of >> don't have the ability to be a good listener and he's a very good listener.
(1:18:10) >> Oh, is it? >> Yeah. >> Nice. Tell me about an actor who completely changed your opinion after meeting them. >> Charhan. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> What about him? >> I think there was like you know when we were kids you know there was always this uh it's more a fan thing that you know fans would compete against.
(1:18:28) Oh, I'm Amir Khan fan, Shah Rukh Khan fan and then you know you're going to hate on each other and >> and I think growing up I was an Amir Khan fan so I was like oh and my best friend was a Shah Rukh Khan fan and I was like please >> you know so there was that so I'd created this narrative and then I was like ah no I don't think he's good and this that some nonsense >> and I would keep hearing these stories about how anybody who worked with him was like how amazing he is and this that and then I worked with him on Raan and
(1:18:53) >> he was uh just incredible and I And then I saw what what makes him who he is and what is it about him that people feel so drawn to. >> I think he's very down to earth is what I've heard. >> Yeah. Very real, very uh and again very present. Very present for a person who's constantly around people.
(1:19:16) He's extremely present and extremely engaged. And if he's talking to you, he's only talking to you. >> Yeah. while he can still have peripheral vision to know where he needs to, you know, he while talking to you, he might pull a chair for somebody who needed it or, >> you know, take out a light. >> Very present. >> Very present.
(1:19:31) >> And I also feel like he's one of the one of the finest celebrities who have who has great business acumen. >> Yes. Also, because he's somebody who's interested in things beyond the film industry, I think in a sense, and he's interested in uh lot of different aspects of it. >> So, yeah. >> Yeah.
(1:19:50) Have you ever met a famous actor and thought they're nothing like their public image? >> Have I ever met a famous actor? Yeah, I guess so. >> I mean, um, >> who would that be? >> It's not like there nothing. I mean, I could I can't think of a specific uh person like that, but I think that there is always a See, it's that same thing we were talking about expectations.
(1:20:13) So much of what we hear about people or what we feel drawn to with people is based on our perception of them and our idea and notion of them. So obviously when you interact with them in a in a at a larger level then you start seeing more nuances and more human sides to them you know and sometimes that can feel disappointing >> but uh it doesn't take away from the fact that >> those aspects also can still exist in them and it's not necessarily a facade as much as it's just like >> humanizing people you know at the end of
(1:20:49) the day. >> Yeah. Would you like to share any example? uh I always think of uh the right example. I have a feeling of it like where I've had these moments here and there with people but no one specifically. I'm also someone who's generally very empathetic. So >> in all likelihood for me it happens the opposite way.
(1:21:13) I could have probably felt that somebody would be a certain way and judged them and then had the ex exact opposite feeling that they ended up being amazing. Yeah, >> that has happened more to me than the other way around. And who would that be? >> All like Capil. I didn't know what to expect how he would be. And then he was a great actor also had done acting for many years the the way he was in terms of conversation the presence.
(1:21:37) Then uh Barun Sopti I remember when I was meant to work with him in this film I was like why are they taking a TV actor for this part you know >> and then I met him and I was like oh my god he's amazing and he's one of my dearest friends and I love him >> and um >> but then I remember my friend Kitika Camra with her also I remember thinking oh you know I don't know if she would be right for this part and >> and then I met her and I fell in love with her and she was excellent in it also.
(1:22:05) So okay >> I've had moments of that or even Shah Rukh Khan I mentioned you know like I had this kind of notion of him and how that changed. So >> right amazing. So tell me what's that one trait all successful actors have in common. >> I think it would be their desire for success. >> I think that is a very key >> aspect to being successful.
(1:22:28) I think I that I that that kind of success whether that is >> commercial success, success in terms of >> the fame and and the adulation that comes >> that scale of it. I think you have to have >> a constant desire for that >> that kick to want to do it. For me the kick is the >> the nerves of going on set, the the creative collaboration, the How are we going to make this happen? That that is my kick.
(1:23:00) >> Yeah. >> Which is why the invisible part, the being shy, the not wanting spotlight. >> You have to want to want the spotlight to be successful. >> Yeah. >> So I think that definitely is a common factor that that aspect of um whatever that notion of fame and success that makes them feel they have a desire for that.
(1:23:23) >> Got it. Is there an actor you feel that who has a lot of talent but has not made it big in Bollywood? Like immense talent but did not really make it big. So many people in that sense. I mean I guess people also have phases you know of um nothing's coming to mind but I I do I do feel like there are so many people like that.
(1:23:45) >> Okay. Do you think actresses, actors are really lonier than they uh than they than people actually think they are? >> Yeah, in my reading, yes. Again, I'm saying that not for myself because I don't consider myself an actor in that sense like I said, but >> uh I do I do feel like that is uh that >> is is true for a lot of >> And why do you think that's existing today? I think it might be because of this, you know, that there is a certain isolation that happens with actors in the film world especially because you are being
(1:24:23) put in the spotlight and then you're being treated as different for being put in the spotlight. >> Team and everybody is also treating you differently and then you also have an entourage and you also I mean >> that that whole narrative gets so big that you have no choice but to have an imposter.
(1:24:41) I mean even even when you hear stories of Michael Jackson I mean he was very lonely. He didn't know who his friends were. He didn't know because that's what starts happening. You don't know who >> whether your love and adoration or people who are standing by you are standing by you because of where you are in life or because of who you are.
(1:24:55) >> Yeah. >> And that I think is something that and >> let's be honest it's something in a sense all actors including myself we are in it for validation. You want to be seen and validated for some aspect. Maybe for me it's not about being run after with somebody screaming my name but but I do want to be appreciated for the work I did.
(1:25:17) >> Of course >> I do want to be seen for being a good actor you know. >> But that's for any profession also. >> Correct. >> Right. Correct. >> Like you are playing your part as an actor because that's business for you. >> Correct. >> And we are doing what we're doing. >> Correct. And you want that to be seen >> in a setup. Absolutely.
(1:25:32) >> Working with companies. So I guess we all playing our parts that way. >> Right. But what is the biggest misconception people have about actors today? >> I think that they're rich. >> This is something that is Yes. Because the the number of actors that exist and the number of ups and downs that people go through, even the ones who are popular, you know, if you look at anybody that you love and you thought, oh, they did this, they were so but where did they disappear? They haven't done anything in so many years. because
(1:25:58) it's not up to them, you know, what comes their way, what doesn't, the, you know, the the the es and flow of the business world. There's such little control that you have as an actor. You are at the mercy of somebody hiring you. >> Yeah. >> You know, when people ask me the other day also somebody said, "Oh, why do we not see more of you?" I said, "Why are you asking the employer?" I mean, the employee, ask the employer.
(1:26:20) Now, how can the employee tell you why they're not being employed? That's not a question I can answer. >> Yeah. So um so yeah I think that this is a myth. People have this notion that actor's life means like it's full of luxury and just in like rolling in riches and you know it's really not. >> Yeah.
(1:26:42) Name a successful actor for me who has never chased a celebrity tag. >> Baroni. >> Why do you say that? >> Cuz he doesn't care for it. He again is one of those people who's made it really big and I'm so happy for him because he's so talented. >> Yeah. But he's really just interested in the work. >> He was never he never cared about the fame. >> Uh if the fame can facilitate good work, great. He'll do his bit.
(1:27:06) But he's not >> at all aware of it or even feeding of it in any way. Right now since we our show is called breakthrough moments with Priyanka tell me which has been your biggest breakthrough in your life at this point then I would say it would be 2020 when I reconnected uh very deeply and very um purposefully into my spirituality again.
(1:27:38) I think I was spiritual my whole >> younger years but I >> hid it and never expressed too much of it because I also grew up in a more liberal family but like God was my best friend. and I used to talk about every day and would hear >> back responses and uh but I would not share that with anybody and then over time it faded away and then in 2020 >> it brought me back to that and in a much more deeper and intentional way and that has been a very crucial shift in my life.
(1:28:09) >> And what has that taught you about yourself? >> That my purpose is connected to that and that being an actor has also been a stepping stone for that. that the reason why I am in the public eye in the spotlight is not to be famous and successful as an actor. It's to be in the spotlight to be a person exploring themselves >> and that is your purpose in life.
(1:28:32) >> That's what I think right now. Ask me 10 years later [laughter] >> as as I say we keep evolving. >> Exactly. >> But this has been an absolute pleasure speaking to you Shahana and thank you for all the honesty and the candidness and the boldness and the openness and everything around it. I really really enjoyed this candid free flowing chat.
(1:28:51) >> Really enjoyed the conversation. You asked a lot of very interesting and different uh questions from >> Thank you. It was really grateful that you you came on my show. Thank you. Yes. Thank you.
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