How To Break Anyone & Make Them Reveal Their Secrets | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani
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Title: How To Break Anyone & Make Them Reveal Their Secrets | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
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Evy Poumpouras, former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent who spent over a decade protecting several American Presidents and served on the Presidential Protective Division for Barack and Michelle Obama, before becoming a trained interrogator, polygraph examiner, and behavioral expert.
She explains:
◼ How the Secret Service exam filters out nearly every candidate who attempts it
◼ What presidential security actually looks like inside a clean zone with counter-snipers and armored vehicles
◼ How Evy Poumpouras went from NYPD cop to the Presidential Protective Division for Barack and Michelle Obama
◼ How to get a criminal talking using one psychology trick trained interrogators rely on
◼ Why foreign governments resist cooperating with US security teams even on friendly diplomatic visits
◼ What happened when she ran an undercover operation that busted a Russian passport-trafficking ring
◼ How polygraph examiners are trained to catch a lie, and what bulletproof vests have to do with it
◼ How she would approach interrogating Jeffrey Epstein and what questions she believes matter most
Also covered: Evy Poumpouras, Secret Service, Presidential Protective Division, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, NYPD, polygraph examiner, Jeffrey Epstein interrogation, Ted Bundy, Osama bin Laden
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
03:25 - From NYPD Cop to Protecting the President: Her Untold Story
09:17 - The Brutal Secret Service Exam Almost Nobody Passes
20:34 - The Hate She Faced as a Young Cop on the Street
26:46 - The Psychology Trick That Gets Even Criminals to Talk
33:46 - Inside Presidential Security: Snipers, Clean Zones & Hidden Threats
45:22 - The Diplomatic Nightmare of Guarding a Leader on Foreign Soil
49:43 - Why Even "Friendly" Governments Resist US Security Demands
56:22 - Bulletproof Vests & the Science of Catching a Lie
1:07:56 - Going Undercover: A Russian Sting & a Passport-Trafficking Bust
1:13:11 - How She'd Interrogate Jeffrey Epstein and Ted Bundy
1:29:21 - Signs of Psychopathy
1:32:44 - What Would She Ask Osama Bin Laden in an Interrogation?
1:40:16 - What's One Mistake Investigators Can Make to Blow Up the Interrogation?
1:42:56 - Why Is It the Worst Time to Be a World Leader?
1:48:34 - When Has She Felt the Most Powerless in Her Life?
1:51:30 - What's the Cost of Being Successful at What She Does?
1:56:06 - BTS
1:57:25 - Outro
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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Figuring Out is a Candid Conversations University where Raj Shamani brings raw conversations with the Top 1% in India and around the world.
Disclaimer: This video is intended solely for educational purposes and the opinions shared by the guest are his/her personal views. We do not intend to defame or harm any person, brand, product, country or profession mentioned in the video. Our goal is to provide information to help the audience make informed choices. The media used in this video is solely for informational purposes and belongs to its respective owners.
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Transcript:
(00:00) You are responsible to be in a group to protect the most powerful person in the world, the president of United States. [music] >> How do you design this? >> You have circles of security around that person layer upon layer. And the idea [music] is each of these circles are supposed to stop or intercept a threat at some point.
(00:20) The people in the closest in the center of the circle, they [music] call that shift. Shift is like you're literally the bodyguard. It's the last line of defense. It should never come to that. My name is Evie Pompures. A former Secret Service special agent, protected several US presidents during her career and later became an NBC law enforcement analyst, author, and expert in interrogation and reading people.
(00:41) >> There's teams on the ground that are dressed like everybody else and they're just in the crowd. Also, like another thing that was a concern were ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts an IED on the road. Boom. Right? What do I do? So, you always want to stay in motion. You've got the vehicles which are highly tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles.
(01:02) >> How do you do that on a foreign land? Imagine a US president has to go give a speech in India or China. >> It's a gamble because you have to trust that other foreign country. >> How the process goes. >> If I'm going to India, which is a big country, listen, he's going to Mumbai. I'm going to send an agent and people out there probably a month in advance to work with the Mumbai police with the military in India.
(01:25) I'm going to work with them. United States we train very differently. So there's some countries where you're like nice country but they're not capable of protecting. Look at any picture of any president of the United States going anywhere in the world. They are always in their cars. We fly the cars over. If you would have gotten in the room with few people in the world, how would you have interrogated them to extract certain information out of them? One is Jeffrey [music] Abstein.
(01:52) >> So you're looking at someone very wealthy, knows everybody. I mean this guy knew presidents. You would need days with him. [music] The first few days I would talk about anything but the case. Tell me about yourself. How'd you grow up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I get you food? I just want this guy talking.
(02:07) Is this [music] because I don't need the confession from Epstein because I actually have enough to convict him. But what I want [music] from him, who he played with, who was on his island, how did he get the girls, what did he do? I want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes.
(02:20) I want to know how big this thing goes. That's [music] what I would want to know. >> This one's close to you. How would you interrogate him? >> Osama bin Laden. >> How do you even become a Secret Service agent? What's the most brutal part of the training? I think the >> you've been a spy. You've been somebody who has lied to people.
(02:44) How to become a good liar. >> I remember once I pretended to be somebody who was being sex trafficked and I had to pretend to be from another country. >> Tell me about the story. >> Well, I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations.
(03:11) And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well. Now, let's get into the episode. If someone's watching you for the first time, okay, and they have no clue about what you do, what you've done. So, why don't you tell us what have you done, what do you do, and why they should watch our conversation for the next couple of hours.
(03:42) >> So, I my name is Evie Pompures. I started off in law enforcement uh in a career when I was very young. I actually started in the NYPD, which is New York City Police Department. uh uh did very brief time there and then transitioned to the United States Secret Service um as a special agent and criminal investigator.
(04:04) And that agency, which some people don't know, is what's called a dual mission agency. They work investigations. So you work criminal cases and you also work protection. So you protect the president of the United States, former presidents because they get protection for life, families and then foreign heads of state. So if somebody you know a head of state from India is coming to the US or any other country visit visits the United States, they get protection because you do not want anybody getting assassinated on US soil. It's bad business.
(04:36) >> Yeah. >> Um so you you have these two things. So you work criminal cases. So in one week I could do a search warrant or an arrest warrant or an undercover assignment and at the same breath have a protection assignment or be sent overseas somewhere. Um and then within that scope in the agency I did polygraph exams actually.
(04:57) Do you do they have those in India? Do they give them? They do them. Um, so I did I was a polygraph examiner here in the US and here in the US you use polygraphs for either criminal cases or or you can use them well they use them for hiring. If you wanted to be an agent in certain government positions you have to take one and pass one.
(05:15) >> Why? >> Well, why? Because a lot of people lie. Um, so so there's a couple of things. One is if you're going to be a US Secret Service special agent, it's a very sensitive position. you're you have access to classified information uh certain information. You're also in the White House.
(05:36) You're given a gun and you're standing next to some of the most powerful people in the world. So, you have to make sure that that person is one not interested in infiltrating the organization, right? So, that's the first thing. Terrorism, somebody infiltrating a spy, that's one. The other thing is character. For a job like that, you're investigating crimes.
(05:58) who have access to sensitive information. Again, sensitive people, they need to make sure that you're of strong integrity and character. So, if I grew up and I spent my my youth even, you know, or or my early 20s like committing crimes and maybe I never got caught, right? Cuz sometimes people would say you would ask them, "Have you ever committed a crime?" And they would say, "Oh, I was never arrested." That's not what I asked you.
(06:22) So you want to make sure that when you put people in position of this kind of power that they should be given that power and so I think I was reading the data even in regular uh resumes when 75% of people lie or embellish their resumes so how can you verify that info and so because again of the nature of that job you give polygraphs and I will tell you Raj because I used to uh I've taken them and then I began to be the one who was trained to give them I can't tell you how many times even in people who just wanted the job that we would find things
(06:55) an applicant uh interview would sometimes turn into a criminal interview. >> Give me an example. >> I we I had one scenario where the person applying for the job actually had, you know, and and I I I want to try to say this delicately, but had video footage of children and pornography on their computer. um >> and he was applying for >> he was applying for a position.
(07:22) >> So something like that would not have come up >> had it not been for the polygraph. >> But how do you navigate and find out this stuff like what do you ask so that they >> a lot of questions you when you do with these jobs like with a job like this and it's the same for FBI, DEA, a lot of these organizations, CIA, it's a multi-step process.
(07:46) So there's different phases and they give you the first phase which sometimes is just send your resume or fill in this form then fill another form then another form and then come speak to this person then do a panel interview where you speak to multiple agents they ask you many questions they put you in really tough scenarios they want to hear how you respond uh a polygraph written exams so there's a lot of phases so each phase is is meant to filter out people >> m >> right and so it it can take up to a year. I I'm a I think for positions like
(08:21) this and even a lot of companies you know it's good for organizations to really slow down and think about who they bring in because once you bring a problem in it's a problem. It's very hard to then offload that person and a a disruptive person or a person that doesn't fit in your culture can just crush the whole system.
(08:43) even like something like this, right? One person can really just >> Yeah. >> collapse the whole system and now you struggle working. It affects other people. Um and then compound that with sensitive information and guns and weapons and the people you're protecting. It's really really important that you have people of the the highest integrity when they come in because once they're in, you know, people have to move and do things.
(09:08) You know, you're also out there making arrests. So you can't you yourself can't be committing crimes or have committed crimes and now you're out there enforcing the law. >> True. What how do you by the way how do you even become a secret service agent? >> When you say how tell me specifically what part you're curious about.
(09:27) >> I'm curious about h like what is this position first? Is it out there open for everyone to just go apply and become a secret service? >> You can apply. You go to the website. Today it's much easier. You go to a website, they'll tell you first of all if they're hiring. These a all these agencies, they'll tell you if they're hiring. They have recruitment centers.
(09:46) You apply. You go to them. They don't go looking for you. Okay? Sometimes they'll do job fairs. They'll go to universities and they'll try to recruit people, but but more or less like a place like that, I think sometimes in the movies they think like they're going to come knocking at your door and say, "Hey, Raj, you seem super special.
(10:03) " >> Um, they just have so many people typically that put in. I think one of the big factors or difficulties is finding people that can pass all the background checks p you know pass all that stuff and sometimes it's hard to find folks who have that level of of of clearance that they they you know or integrity or and not that you know when you're young you do sometimes things or when you're grown up you do things.
(10:28) So you just can't have done too many of those you know inappropriate things because that can impact you being hired. So then you apply >> you apply and then you start the process. So look what helped me I was in the NYPD before >> already. Yeah. >> So that shows okay this is a person who's interested in law enforcement.
(10:48) Some people are in the military before um and that's very powerful >> you know for to show like hey I served my country. A big thing is like you you why do you want to do that job? And when I would ask um applicants why do you want to be a secret service agent? you know, I would get two different types of answers.
(11:08) One was, you know, I want to serve something greater than myself, and then the other answer was like, oh, I want to see if I can do this. And it was usually the people that answered the first way that did the best. Because you're not doing it for you, you're doing it for something bigger. If you're like if if it's just for you when things get hard because they will get hard especially in a hiring process you're not going to have that stamina or ability to endure or go through the the pain of getting through training.
(11:35) So it's a multi-step process. You do you apply and first do they even consider you or not. So you may never hear from anybody once you apply. If you hear it's usually fill in some paperwork and then they have bring you in for take a written exam. There was a written exam you have to take that when I took it was very hard.
(11:55) I I for sure thought I failed it. And then if you pass that then they invite you to the next step and the next step. If you pass those steps then they decide if they want to give you a it's called a conditioner conditional offer of employment. It doesn't mean you've got the job. It now means you can go to training and if you pass training then we can give you the job.
(12:17) And then even if you pass training, you get the job, then you're put on some kind of probationary period where they can fire you for uh for anything, they can get rid of you. Because even if you put people through training, you you put all these mechanisms in place to make sure you hire the best person, which I'm sure you do as well.
(12:35) >> Yeah. And then sometimes you you don't know until you know until somebody is physically working with you all the time seeing them do the job and then you realize this is a great fit. This is really difficult. >> And so what they do is to make it easier to let people go. And I think a lot of law enforcement places do it.
(12:55) The NYPD did it too is they do a probationary period where they can let you go um much easier than if you were on for a longer period of time. And what do they test in training? Like what's the most brutal part of the training? Because you said once they're selected, not many people are able to get across the training period as well.
(13:15) >> Training usually at that point if you get accepted into training that you they still can ask you to leave at any point. At that point, they have invested a lot of time, energy, and effort. And it's a small group. It's not like a military group where there's like hundreds like it's it's it's usually a handful of folks.
(13:33) And at that point they do try to I don't want to say help you but they want to see you succeed because they've invested all that time, energy, effort and money. >> Um but you do training is uh combat fighting. It's driving and not like fun driving because you have people like I love to drive and I love to drive and when I did training I was it was one of the it was so stressful because you can get disqualified at any point and you're doing tactical driving with bulletproof vehicles which is very hard looks cool on TV very difficult to do in real life
(14:06) uh to do certain maneuvers with them a lot of testing written exams um the law ethics uh policies and procedures so you have to really be kind of a master of all. And the other part of it is I think probably what's also hard is that your performance is out on display for everyone. There's no privacy.
(14:29) So people know if you pass or fail. People know how well you shoot or don't shoot. So like for example, when you're shooting at the range, again, sounds cool. It can be a stressful thing. At least it was for me and I know it was for many agents because >> you want to perform well because the the person next to you, the left and right of you or even further down, they they would write our scores in big black magic marker. They would score it.
(14:53) They didn't pull you to the side and say, "Hey, let me tell you what you got, Evie. We need to do better." No, they they they wrote your score out in big letters so everybody could see how well or how poorly you performed. >> And why why would they do so? Why would they want to publicize every result? competitive environment and honestly if you can't take people seeing your weaknesses you can't be there you have to be a very resilient person it's not a job where they're going to hold your hand >> and so if you're a person who's I don't
(15:19) mean it it like overly sensitive or things hurt your feelings you're going to you can't do that job because it's a very direct job it's like hey I need you to do this I need you to fix this and you can't you it's you can't have personalities where they're easily affected or impacted their feelings get I I don't mean it in a negative way.
(15:40) I just mean it it will make the job very difficult to do and especially when you deal with life and death. If you can't deal with the embarrassment of performing badly and people seeing it >> Yeah. >> then you can't you can't do it. So it does make you also it makes you accountable because now I know how well or not well you're doing and if I care about my my reputation then I'm going to I'm going to work harder and perform better. True.
(16:07) >> So, it's it's another thing, too. Sometimes shame's a big thing. >> Um, it's not a bad thing. >> I know sometimes people like, "Oh, shame's bad." No, shame shame keeps you uh on your toes. Shame keeps you uh making better decisions. You know, guilt and shame like they serve their purpose. >> And shame is one of the biggest motivators in the world anyway.
(16:30) Like lot of people don't mess up or don't because of shame and embarrassment. >> Yes. And I think sometimes I think a lot of times in society or today you hear like I don't want to feel how do you get rid of the shame or how do I get rid of these bad feelings and I I think it's mislabeling them and that everything serves a purpose.
(16:50) Even guilt guilt is a good thing. If you feel feel guilt it means you did something wrong that you should feel bad about. And when you feel bad about it what does that mean? I will not do it again or I will do better next time. But if you take that guilt away or that shame away now you have no attachment.
(17:07) In fact, when you look at people who commit if you look at people who are sociopathic, they're called antisocial personality disorders. People who commit really bad crimes. So, think of like serial killers or people at that level. Uh part of the reason that they're able to do that is they feel no shame. They feel no guilt.
(17:23) They don't feel bad. So, they can do that. There's a very low, if not zero empathy. So, those feelings when people feel shame, embarrassment, guilt, they are good. I felt them all the time. I still feel them all the time as a human being. And they keep me they keep me steady and they help me make better decisions. >> Interesting.
(17:45) What's the most unusual thing you were trained on? >> What's the unusual thing that I did training in? >> I'm trying to think. I understood why we did it. I don't know if it was unusual, but driving bulletproof cars. At first, I thought it'd be not easy. I was like, "Oh, this will be great." It was very hard maneuvering the vehicles.
(18:07) Um, >> but why would they teach you? You were not a designated driver, right? >> Oh, I drove everybody. >> Okay. >> You you learn You know what the great thing with that job is? You do everything. You go from driving to standing here because you're driving protectes, individuals. So, you need to know how to drive ballistic vehicles.
(18:24) Um, and uh because of the weight of the cars, they're very hard. If you're going very fast, they're very hard to maneuver. So, ballista cars sound cool. Really difficult to navigate. At least for me, it was. I'm trying to think what was surprising about training. I think what was surprising to me because I had no military background.
(18:45) And I actually learned this in the NYPD. I didn't realize how militarized it was. It they're called paramilitary, which means the training is designed similar to the military. And I didn't know. I thought, "Oh, this is great. It will be like college." and it was nothing like college. And so it was very hard. Um, people are not there to hold your hand.
(19:06) NYPD, for example, is a class of 1,500 cadets. 1,500. You're you're nobody. You're you're next. You're nothing. Um, and you learn that very quickly. [snorts] And you learn to, you know, you either sink or swim. And I think that part is is hard. Not understand. >> What was hard about that training? What was >> NYPD? Yeah, >> I think the first few months, especially the first month, their job is to just get people to I think they just weed out the weak.
(19:37) >> They just weed people out. >> They're yelling. They're yelling at you. They're making you do push-ups for no reason. Somebody's phone went off. I remember we were on the m mustard deck. They call it muster when they take attendance. They line everybody up. You're standing like this. You're freezing >> and you're out.
(19:53) I remember the mustard deck was on a rooftop in the old uh academy in New York City and it's freezing and you're standing there. >> Um you can't move, you can't budge. Uh and I remember once somebody's phone went off, somebody all the way in the back and you're not not supposed to let that happen. And then all of us had to do push-ups for I don't even know how many.
(20:15) Or if somebody does some small infraction, they find reasons to punish you. I think the the the best quality you can have for stuff like that is your ability to endure pain. >> Both physical pain and probably emotional, psychological pain. >> If you can do that, you can kind of do anything. You know, I'll come back to Secret Service and bunch of other things in protection group, but because you are on NYPD, I'm just curious to know.
(20:43) America is one of the most powerful countries in the world. Probably the most powerful country in the world today. New York is the hub. And yet, New York is getting more and more unsafe day by day. Why do you feel NYPD is not able to make New York safe? I I actually taught taught criminal justice and criminology here in the United States for about 10 years.
(21:08) And there's two dominant things that prevent crime. The one is, you know, you're going to get caught without a shadow of doubt. If I know I'm going to get caught and get caught fast, that's one deterrent. >> And the other deterrent is I'm going to be punished. [snorts] >> These are the two most important factors.
(21:28) If you take one of these away, [snorts] it increases people's likelihood of committing crime. Usually also people who commit crime tend to be it tends to be a smaller group or network of folks that commit crime after crime after crime after crime. The other thing is I think we're also in a place or space where there's a dislike for law enforcement. It's a very negative view.
(21:48) Um when I started the NYPD was before September 11th. So before then, people didn't like law enforcement or police either. I remember we used to run by the highway here in New York City. The it was called the FDR. They have us running and you could tell we were police recruits and people would drive by doing 50, 60 miles an hour and they would spit at us. They would curse at us.
(22:09) They would give us the middle finger. And I remember cuz I was very young. I didn't understand. I was like, why do they hate us so much? I I'm becoming a police officer because I want to help. But there's high distrust uh in society. And the ironic thing is police was created, the first police department was created in London, Metropolitan Police Force.
(22:28) And it was in the 1800s. I can't remember the exact date, but it was in the mid to late 1800s. It was created. And the reason why police were created is because it was for people who did not have money. Police existed, but private police existed. That meant people with money could get justice.
(22:47) So if somebody stole from me, I would pay for private police and they'd go get me my person. So what politicians realized or political leaders realized at that time this isn't right because what about the rest of society? So that's when they made police public. So police actually exists for people who don't have money, who can't afford security.
(23:09) So sometimes when I hear people criticize law enforcement or want to defund the police and say no police, I don't think they realize that it actually exists for people who don't have the the money to get justice, to get help. And that's how it actually started. One of um John Franchie, I'm going to give him a shout out now.
(23:30) For former CIA chief in the Middle East, I can't say what country he was in. And I asked him, I'm like, "How do you how do you destroy a country?" And he said, 'You know what? He said, uh, I got a great answer once from a former member of the KGB, Russian, and he said, the way you destroy a country is to kill it from within. >> And how do you kill it from within? >> Divisiveness.
(23:52) You break the unity. And so if everybody's fighting each other, which sadly it appears in the US it looks like that, um, um, that's a great way to bring a country, a very powerful country down. It's it's it's you you you destroy it from within >> because if you're attacking a country from the outside, usually that country is unified and they fight back.
(24:15) It's very powerful. >> But if I'm fighting you and my neighbor and this other person or the person there, um there are, I think, outside entities and bad actors are doing a great job in getting people to do a lot of infighting. And I think it's really important for people to pause and say what I'm consuming is it true and is it the whole story or is it 1% and I'm ignoring the 99% cuz again I do the news I'm in media media now which also has high distrust uh media and news.
(24:47) So I'm always very careful as to what I say and share but I know that every time I go on air I am unfortunately discussing negative things about policing. It's always like what did they mess up? What did they not do? Uh what are they doing bad here? So if that's all you hear and that's all you see that's your truth and reality.
(25:07) >> Who are the countries which are trying to dis destroy United States from the inside? >> I would think a lot of powerful actors. It's not it's not China, Russia. It's just the way it's it's it's played. It's it's become a new warfare. I'm not going to drop bombs. I'm gonna, you know, put bots or I'm gonna put actors to help create conflict online and and confuse your population.
(25:32) Why do you think some countries control the internet? Some countries really control the internet and what people are allowed to see and share and voice because they want to control narratives. >> Yeah. >> Because if if if I don't control the narrative, then somebody can disrupt my country and my ability to govern that country. Many countries do that.
(25:53) They they they you know they they they filter what can be said and you could look at it as a bad thing and yes it's got its negative but at the same time they're like hey I'm trying to control the narrative cuz I want my people to believe what I want them to believe whether it's good or not >> it's up for debate but in the US because it's anything goes then anything goes and so you always have to understand like even if I do an interview like this I'm very hyper aware of everything I say because I know there are bad actors are
(26:23) going to watch this and they're going to try to collect intelligence to say, "Oh, she's going to talk about the US Secret Service and the US government. >> What can she say and what can I learn?" Cuz I'm a bad actor and I want to >> attack create conflict. So, it's always like running this balance of you want to share information with people and at the same time I have to be hyper aware of what I say when I open my mouth.
(26:46) Is there a way that you can make people tell you more things like you can extract things out of them? >> Yes, I mean I do that all the time when I was an an examiner. [sighs and gasps] >> Well, there are some influence strategies you can use with people. So, for example, autonomy is one that's a good influence strategy.
(27:06) >> What do you mean better? >> So, autonomy is when I let you feel like you're in control. for example is all right I'm trying to think of a simple one so for the interview when I was doing my old job in law enforcement even now in media not people sometimes don't want to talk to you uh but a lot of people did not want to talk to me because if you talk to me there was a very good chance you might go to jail or prison so what's the benefit of talking to me but the way the law works in the United States um you cannot make somebody talk to you
(27:40) even if they're in custody even if they're arrested said they have the right to remain silent. They're they have Miranda rights. You have the right to remain silent. Uh you know, you don't have to share an information. You know that if you share information, it can be held against you.
(27:57) So, one of the things I would do to make people feel like they have control and authority, I would tell them, you can leave at any time. You have a choice. There's the door. I would show them the door. I would even say, look, the door is unlocked. You can walk out. I would make sure that my chair when I could did not block the door, that they always felt that they were free to go if they were not in custody or if they were free to stop speaking to me. So, I gave them a choice.
(28:21) It's like, "Hey, just come and sit down. You don't have to say anything. Let me do the talking and at any point if you want to walk out, you can walk out. I just gave you a choice so you don't feel like I'm holding all the cards. But if I'm like, "No, sit down and you're going to talk to me and you're going to tell me this.
(28:34) If you don't tell me this, you're going to jail." I'm taking away your autonomy. So when people feel the choice like I can walk out any time and she won't stop me. That's autonomy. You feel better. You feel like I can I'm in charge. >> Control. >> That's that's a really good influence strategy.
(28:53) Other influence strategies are reciprocity. I do something for you in hopes that either later on or immediately you'll do something for me. M >> people don't like to feel for some reason we're wired most of us >> not to feel like we owe somebody something. So think about doors like when people hold doors you ever walk through double doors where it's doors and then another set of doors which some of buildings are like that.
(29:16) So if somebody holds a door for you and you walk through you're like oh thank you and what do you immediately do? >> You grab the next door to hold for them to do it for them. That's called reciprocity. So when you do things for people you should do them for the the niceness of doing things for people. However, there are some people use it as an influence strategy.
(29:36) I'll do something nice for you in hopes that you will reciprocate and do something nice for me. That's influence. Especially let's say I'm going to do something nice for you Raj because maybe I want to get into the podcast business and I don't know anything about the podcast business but you're really good at it.
(29:52) So I'm going to do a lot of nice things that have nothing to do with podcast for you. That way later on I can come to you a month or two months later. Hey Raj, I got a question for you. I want to launch a podcast. Could you guide me or help me out? And you're going to say, "Sure, Evie, because I did a lot of things for you before.
(30:08) Nothing to do with the podcast space." >> True. >> But I put like money in the bank >> of Raj and now I can come to Raj and I'm going to withdraw. And you're thinking, "Oh, she's done so many nice things for me." Now, you should do nice things for people, I think, within reason because we should all help each other out. I I'm not self-made.
(30:29) I had good people along the way that helped make me and get me to where I'm at. But if you But it's also, you know, you can also look at people and say, "This person maybe later on in life can give me guidance or support. Let me give value to them." So, it's like a a tricky slope, you know, but then there are people completely manipulated.
(30:49) But that's another influence influence strategy, reciprocity. And I'll give you one more authority. If people see me as an authority, they are more likely to say yes to me and not challenge me. So if you're able to carry yourself in such a way or make somebody believe that you are the authority in that dynamic, uh that's influence.
(31:11) >> How do you make yourself an authority in the room? >> It can be the way I enter the room. It can be the way I speak and the way I dress. It can be the R I put off. It could also be my voice. There was a study done 2012 in the United States. They looked at politicians and they wanted to see which politicians would win an election.
(31:31) They were trying to see patterns and they found that those politicians who won the majority of the elections, they all had a deeper stronger tone voice. It's called paral linguistics. because of the way they sounded when they spoke. They were deemed to have more authority. Nothing to do with their competency or anything like that.
(31:49) Just what they sound like when they spoke it. They spoke. So if I have a higher voice, I'm seen as less competent and less of an authority. Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie. This is who I am. I'm deemed as being more of an authority. So there's other little there's other techniques and strategies that you use to make yourself appear or not appear as an authority regardless of title or status.
(32:13) >> So one strategy to appear authoritative was voice. >> It can be your voice. Yes. >> Where are two three more >> can be dress. So darker colors which you're wearing now um exude more authority. Like if I came in here wearing a bright yellow outfit and I'm former US Secret Service, I even if I'm highly competent, um just the appearance of what I'm wearing is going to take my authority away.
(32:42) >> Some people are going to doubt. >> The people are going to doubt it. And I understand why. Here's the thing. When you don't, you know, first impressions, they matter. It's like 0.1 second to 0.5 seconds, 01 seconds to like 2 or 3 seconds. It's like super fast. Once somebody Raj has a negative impression of you, it it's it's extremely difficult to reverse.
(33:05) So, how you show up, how you enter a room, what you wear, uh how you're dressed, your movements, all of that. People within seconds decide how they see you. And if they make a negative impression of you, it is deeply difficult to to undo. And it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time and a lot of work on your end. Consistency to change that.
(33:27) That's why it's really important always think about how you show up immediately. And with that, social media comes in cuz it's not just me showing up here. You've probably looked at my social media. You've looked at my post. You look at what I write. That's another thing people have to look at.
(33:43) Um cuz people are already making an impression of you before they even met you. >> Let's get into details of security now. Because when the whole world is lying, you can't trust anyone. Everyone you see them as a threat because there can be possible threat from anywhere in the world, right? And you're you are responsible to be in a group to protect the most powerful person in the world where probably the enemy line is like the whole world is your enemy.
(34:11) How do you design this? Like what is the layers? because all we see is one guy in the center was the president of United States and then we see a couple of bodyguards around them. How many layers does it go out as well? >> So it's a lot of security layers kind of like how you were saying you created layers around you >> uh for people who want access to you.
(34:29) It's the same thing. So you have to think of layers of first of all there's layers from the security side and >> the the people in the closest in the center of the circle they call that shift. shift is like you're literally the bodyguard. So, this is like it's the last line of defense. If something gets to the shift, if I'm standing next to the president and a shots fired and it hits us or hits him, I've I failed.
(34:54) >> Okay? >> It should never come to that. Um, but you have components that create, think of like circles of security around that person, layer upon layer. And the idea is each of these circles are supposed to stop or intercept a threat at some point. So what are some examples that I can share? So for example, something counter sniper.
(35:15) >> So if I one of the worries you have is let's say right now we're in New York City, high-rise buildings. If the president's moving, arriving and departing somewhere, I I'm not just securing the ground. I'm securing what's up top. I've got all these high-rise buildings. So anybody, a sniper, can embed themselves anywhere and take a shot.
(35:36) So that's one layer of security I have to manage. So you would put counter snipers. M those are tactical teams that are obviously on the side of the Secret Service or local law enforcement who are supposed to take positions to look at literally every open window and they would be like on the radio, hey, I see an open window.
(35:53) So just imagine how crazy that is when you're moving the president or someone like of that nature where you're walking around and you're literally like hearing, hey, open window on 13 at this this building or open window here. And then there would be a team uh that would go to each open window, go to that. I remember once President Bush, I can share this story, went to Argentina >> and I was assigned to be the counter sniper response.
(36:20) So the counter snipers are looking at all the open windows and the ceilings and the area. And it was me and another person who were assigned to respond cuz they can't move and they don't want to shoot when you have to see a threat to shoot. You have to see a threat. So, I was part of the team that would respond to all these open windows.
(36:38) And so, I remember there was one that came in, a threat, and now we're in a foreign country, mind you, Argentina, where [snorts] we go, and there was a a potential person on a rooftop. And this the counter sniper, all he could see was a lens. >> So, he couldn't tell if it was a lens from a weapon or it could have been binoculars.
(36:57) There's no way to know, but he could see the light from the lens or the reflection. So, we're we're running to respond to this. go all the flights up, you know, and it and you don't know and you're hearing, hey, they're moving closer and you're hearing all this traffic and you're thinking, oh gosh, the president, and it was President Bush at the time, is moving and you get there and it was it was this older man who had binoculars who was trying to watch, but I mean, we scared him half to death, you know, he was like, "Oh my god, I'm sorry." You know, loto, loento. Um,
(37:25) >> but that those are layers of protection. So, that's one layer. So, you're getting the counter snipers you're doing. you have something and I think I can share this to some degree. There's teams on the ground that are dressed like everybody else and they're just in the crowd and they're blending in the crowd.
(37:42) And usually those people, you put them where the crowd is. You put them where protesters are cuz I want to listen to what the protesters are talking about cuz anywhere the president goes, you're going to have protesters. >> Period. The end. There's always going to be hate. And so they, at least in the US, you have to allow them, it's their first amendment right to speak, but you want to put them in a place where they can feel heard, but where it's safe.
(38:06) So we position them somewhere. So you want to make sure you've got teams there. Um, you've got >> the vehicles, >> okay, >> which are highly tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles. So that's another thing. And some people don't know this. The most vulnerable a protectee is is in movement, arrival, departure.
(38:27) When they're in a physical location like we are, I can control components. Outside is like where you're the weakest. Also, like when the cars are moving cuz another thing that was a concern were ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts an IED on the road. Boom. Right. What do I do? So, you always want to stay in motion.
(38:46) You never They used to say get off the X. You never want to be locked into a problem. And I actually even used the get off the X psychologically. Whenever I'm dealing with a problem and I feel stuck, I'm like, I'm on the X. I'm on the X. Get off the X. But this was a tactical thing that would be done. The [snorts] other thing you would also do is you may not realize it, but it's not just the Secret Service.
(39:06) Secret Service is a is a small agency relative to other agencies. So you would go to local police department. So right now we're in New York City. So I would go to the NYPD and I would say, "I need uniforms. I need officers and they would scatter them throughout the city. And one of the things you would decide too is how many officers do you want in plain clothes that blend and then how many do you want in uniform.
(39:28) So you would want both. Some people would be like, "Oh, I don't want any in uniform. I would want them all plane clothes so the public doesn't know." Wrong. I want officers in uniform. Why? Cuz if I'm a bad actor and I see uniform, what am I going to do? I'm going to turn around and go the other way. It's just sometimes just the presence of seeing that uniform there that deters.
(39:48) They do it, police do it. I don't know if they do it in India, but here in the United States, they will park police vehicles in certain locations. No police in them, but they'll park them in certain locations where they think people speed. And so people see the police car and they automatically slow down even though there's nobody in the car.
(40:04) >> I didn't know this. >> Yes. Visually seeing law enforcement is a deterrence. So a lot of it is visual. Um, most people will see and they'll turn around. Then you want to think of like barricades, physical things you can do to secure a spot. I think I can share this one, too. Like I'm always very like thinking about what I can and cannot share >> cuz uh I never want to impede the ability of the the the service to do their job.
(40:32) >> But I had one uh assignment where the president and this one was President Barack Obama. was going to speak in an open open area >> and near that open area there was a highway and my concern was somebody driving by that it it was like a service road highway but my concern was somebody driving by and detonating a their vehicle and that blast hitting the stage or the area where the president was.
(40:59) The other thing is too we keep talking about securing the president. I'm also responsible for those 10,000 people that are going to be there because you what you don't realize is he's the threat, right? He's the volatile thing. He's the he's the thing people want. But people people that are around that now are vulnerable.
(41:18) >> So I have to think I have to keep those people safe. It's not just this person and forget everybody else. So I remember I was trying to think how do I secure this this roadway? So I had line of sight issues which means people from the road could see through. There were trees in in a forest, but they could still see through. So, line of sight.
(41:34) I don't want people seeing in that are not in my secure space cuz I'm thinking weapon snipers. The other thing I'm thinking is vehicles that could detonate. So, I was like, "All right, how do I block this?" So, I start making phone calls to the locals in the area, meaning the city. And at first, I called sanitation, the people that do the the garbage, cuz here in the United States, we've got heavy, big, thick garbage trucks.
(41:55) I was like, "I need garbage trucks." So I called and because this was a so small area, they're like, "We don't have enough garbage trucks for you." And so I'm thinking, "Well, I need trucks." And then I called like construction places. I was like, "I can put bulldozers." I didn't have enough. So I was like, "I know what I'm going to do.
(42:10) " I called schools. I called, I think it was the superintendent for the schools in that area. >> I said, >> "Do you have some yellow school buses I can borrow?" They said, "Yes, we do." >> And I said, "How many school buses can you give me?" So the district gave me all their yellow school buses. and I lined them up by the highway and by the tree line.
(42:30) So they did what? They blocked my line of sight. >> That's one. Two, they would deter for a blast. So if a blast came from the road, those school buses would absorb the impact of the the the blast. Now, if I had a second blast, it'd be some it might be a bit of an issue, right? Cuz you want to be able because you also have to do the math on how much of an explosive um and [snorts] how far can that explosive reach.
(42:53) You have to do blocks. There's so many things that come into effect. So I remember I lined the whole thing with yellow school buses. I just got them all. I had them lined up. I said, "Drop them off. I'll call you when I'm done." When we were done, I called them up. I said, "Come pick up your school buses." So when you do protection, you have to be very creative.
(43:12) You don't think like a protector. You think like the assassin. >> If I'm going to kill this person, how am I going to do it? And I think of all the ways I would kill the person. And then I work in reverse and I build my plan. The other thing is something very simple too, road closures, closing roads because I want to control what's in you create clean space which is space that's been cleaned that's secure.
(43:38) Um and then you lock it secure and then you keep everything dirty outside of it. So then you have magnetometers. U if people are coming to an event which is always a variable you want to try to control or not control. So there's so many layers you you you would do. Another thing we would do >> and I think this is okay like for big events like let's say the president's going to speak at a stadium with people.
(44:01) Um my concern would be not just explosives but chemical biological weapons, radiation. So we would have devices there that would assess whether there was any radioactivity, nuclear threats, bomb, that type of stuff, radioactive devices. You have to think constantly because the people that want to do this, that want to cause harm.
(44:27) And you know what, and it's funny, they probably don't think they're causing harm. They think they're doing something good in the world. >> Usually people that do this stuff think I'm I'm the good guy. And it's a, you know, >> yeah, >> they they they justify what they're doing, but you put all these mechanisms and layers in place to create a protective environment.
(44:46) So I'm I'm knocking one after another after another each threat. The other thing to think about, you probably wouldn't think about it, is fire, right? So it's fire not just for my person, but what about the people? How am I going to get them all out of there? >> How am I going to save all those thousands of people if there's an explosion? So, I would have to have medical teams on standby, not just for the person I'm protecting, but also for the crowd.
(45:10) So, there's so many things you have to think of and layers that you put into place to to offset and you have to think at the end of the day, I'm there to preserve human life. How do I do it? >> But how do you do that on a foreign land? >> You work with foreign countries. Like imagine one imagine a US president has to go give a speech in China or but let's say India or China.
(45:36) [sighs] How would >> I've been to Russia not with the president with um cuz we have other people we protect >> and it's a gamble because you have to trust that other foreign country. Um, so with Russia, I went to do to put the security plan in place for the secretary of the treasury to go because we protected also the secretary of the treasury.
(45:58) So I go, I put my nice plan in place. I'm working with the State Department. The Russians are going to do this. And then we show up. We roll up to the gates. Hi, I'm here with the Secretary of the Treasury. Now, I'm the agent in charge of the whole thing, right? And um, yes, come on in. as the gates open, my person goes in and the Russians close the gates on the rest of the team and they lock us out.
(46:19) And I am I am I don't want to say I'm losing my mind. I'm losing my mind on the inside because outside I'm keeping it together. And you know those are examples of where foreign countries will mess with you and they were absolutely messing with us. And it was really a terrible scenario to be put in because the tactical element which was our element was locked out and there was only a small uh contingency of protection with the person with the secretary of treasury. It was horrific.
(46:47) And then the Russians to mess with us further when it was time to be I couldn't get in by the way. I literally was at the gates fighting with the Russians. I couldn't get in. And I'm arguing with the State Department too because at the time I'm like where's your muscle? like how could you allow something like this to happen? And when they were done with the meeting, so they never let me in, they actually had my protectee leave through a different gate and then they gave them Russian uh security and left us somewhere else. It
(47:16) was horrific. So that stuff absolutely does happen. It is going overseas, especially with countries that either want to mess with you or are not friendly, you are at sometimes the mercy of that stuff. So you always want to be really careful. There were times where I would do protection plans in certain countries and even though they were friendly, they were really difficult to deal with and I would make calls and say you can't bring this person here.
(47:41) >> Like so but how the process goes let's say if one now you're the person you're trying to protect that person has to land in another country you go there in advance how many days >> so let's say he's going to the president's going to India right? >> Yeah. If I'm going to India, which is a big country, let's say he's going to M Mumbai, I'm going to send an agent uh and people out there probably a month in advance to work with the Mumbai police, with the federal police in India, with the military in India, whatever India is
(48:11) willing to give me, >> I'm going to work with them. Now, typically with India, there's high trust, right? Certain countries, there's more trust than with other countries. Um, and I'm going to work with those locals. At the same time, though, it's funny because you're doing the protection.
(48:25) At the same time, you always have to worry about espionage too with other countries. You want to disclose some of your security plan, but you can't disclose all of it because now a foreign country knows how you do protection. It's such a weird dance. >> So, you want to show and give, but at the same time, you don't want to show and give everything because then the, you know, because every country sends their their version of the CIA to watch and listen and be like, "Oh, this is how the Americans do it.
(48:50) " >> And sometimes they just want to copy what we do because we we do it well. Um, and sometimes they want to know because they're spying and they're collecting intelligence. It's it's it the country you go to m matters. Who you work with m matters. And also the the United States does typically a really good job of letting you know, hey, you're going to this country.
(49:11) They play nice or they don't play nice. These are the things to be aware of. Or, hey, this country has a police force that's going to work with you. Uh, but there's a lot of corruption with this police force. So, be very, very careful. There's high corruption in this police force. watch what you share. Um, you know, presume that they're selling this information to somebody else.
(49:29) So, it's it becomes very difficult. Foreign trips are typically massive massive headaches and then sometimes you go to countries that just want to mess with you cuz you're America and you know sometimes people have negative feelings towards America. But don't you think like countries like India or like any large country all around the world they would want to help you more like they would they would provide their best security best stuff to protect your president because if anything happens in that trip it's a bad reputation for the country. It's a bad
(49:59) spot on the country, right? >> No, no other country would want to mess because you don't want to mess with, forget messing. You don't want to mess with even a small country. You don't want to show the world that a president of another country came to your country and this is what happened. >> Yeah. Well, it depends on the country.
(50:16) If you go to Iran, it's a country, you know, >> you don't want to go there anymore because you're directly at war. or Afghanistan when we are at war they would actually sneak the president in >> because you can't trust sometimes some governments because there's so much cor there's high corruption or sometimes infighting sometimes you can't even trust governments because they themselves don't have a good handle on the country so keep that in mind not every country is India where there's some level of law and order and
(50:44) organization some countries are not they don't have that there's a lot of infighting there's civil unrest there's problems where people don't recogn recognize who's in charge. So keep that in mind. So what country am I going to? Is there a stable government? Is that a government I can work with? Does that government are friendly? And sometimes even friendly.
(51:04) So you said why would a maybe stable government or friendly not cooperate? I remember one country, I'm not going to say which one, it was Africa. I was in Africa and this one country where [snorts] um one of my protectes was going to go uh I was sent there a month out in advance to put a protection plan or security plan.
(51:23) And now typically we want to bring uh uh from the US weapons and cars. I want my stuff. I don't want your stuff. >> I don't I don't know how good your stuff is. >> Um I want my stuff. Um, but this country was giving me a very hard time saying you can only bring in instead of I'm making I'm going to make the numbers up. You can only bring in 10 guns, not 50 guns, right? And I'm like, well, I want 50 guns.
(51:47) What am I going to do with 10 guns? So, there's an argument there. And sometimes it would just be they're like, we'll have our people. And I'm like, I don't want your people. I want my people. So, that's where the issue would come in because in the US, United States, we train very differently. So there's some countries where you're like nice country but they're not capable of protecting or some countries will be like well we'll give you ballistic vehicles.
(52:10) No actually if you look at images of the president any president going anywhere in the world they are always in their cars. You never ever ever use that host country's cars. Look at any picture of any president of the United States. They are always in their cars. We fly the cars over. Why? >> Because I know my cars are good. Well, not my cars, the US Secret Services cars. I know my cars are good.
(52:34) I know they can withstand a certain amount of bullets, uh, a certain blast. I don't know what your cars are are like, what they're designed. Forget about even maybe there are bugs in there, meaning spy bugs to listening. Forget that. I know what my cars are capable of. Even magnetometers, the the magnetometers people were walk through in certain scenarios and events.
(52:55) I don't want your magnetometers. I want mine. I know what mine are capable of doing. I don't know what yours are capable of doing. And that's where trust comes in. You trust, but only so far. Conditional trust. I trust my stuff works and works well. Yours not so sure. And it's not a risk I'm willing to take. So sometimes people's feelings would get hurt in different countries.
(53:15) But you know, when you're dealing with life and death and you're dealing with the most targeted person in the world, it's like you can't negotiate certain things. But is it like full-time negotiation going on between two countries? >> Like when you want your person to visit there? >> Yes. You're always negotiating. You have to do a good job.
(53:35) Because the other thing is you could really ruin diplomatic relations. >> Why? How? >> Because if I'm not getting along with the government of that country, if they I get sent to India and let's say India is giving me a hard time, right? and but the president of the United States is going to India to speak uh with the heads of state to encourage trade or do something and let's say the the the relationship is a little rocky.
(53:58) If I come in and I create problems, it always goes to the top >> and so now I'm creating a hostile environment. I'm not I have to work well and work nice. You're you're a diplomat. I had a diplomatic passport. You're a diplomat. You represent your country. So one your behavior are you behaving yourself when you're in that country? Hey, you can't act stupid.
(54:19) >> Number one. Number two is, you know, your professionalism >> and what you do or say, you're representative of the US government. And you have to think about every time you open your mouth, am I representing this government well? Cuz the phone's going to ring and they're going to say, "What are you doing? We're going there to make nice and you're creating a hostile environment.
(54:38) " >> Although I I I'm gonna say this. um the United States overall and at least in my experience we were always when we would do it always very respectful and very good and we were told you play you play nice when you go overseas. It was usually the other way around. I know everybody thinks America's the aggressor but I will tell you from my experience we usually went in very much in good faith and it was usually sometimes maybe because of the reputation the US has the some countries would be very difficult to deal with. Some were just happy to
(55:08) have you and they were like, "We'll give you whatever you need." So, it just it just ran the gamut. >> But why I'm still not able to understand why they would not allow you 50 guns and only allow you 10 guns. Is there a reason or it's just a tactic that hey, we don't succumb to every demand that you have. >> So, it's a really good question and here's why. So, I'm going to flip it.
(55:29) Let's say a country is going to come to the US and they're like, "Hey, we want to come to the yes and we want to bring 50 of our personnel and they're going to bring 50 guns." >> The United States look at this looks at this and says, >> "Your guys are coming in with guns." I don't know what their training is.
(55:45) I don't know how with their tactical training, the laws here are different. Do I want that many guns in my country from a foreign country with foreign people? So, they do the same. Now, you can make the argument, I'm going to be American here. We're the United States. we have really good training. Um, you can trust us when we go to another country.
(56:04) But then when that country comes to the US and we're like, "Hey, I know you let us in with all these guns, but we're not going to let you in." So there's always like this barter system. Okay, if you let me in with 50 guns, I'll let you in with 40 guns. So a lot of times it's that >> it's just a power play.
(56:21) What I can hear, >> of course. Yes. >> Now, let's come to the cars. You you you were telling me about the car because you kept bringing again and again. It's very difficult to drive a ballistic vehicle. What is it? What's the difference between a normal car and the car for the most protected person in the world? >> Basically, what's the difference between a ballistic vehicle and a regular vehicle? Ballistic vehicles usually have layers uh that are put in them so that if there's gun like uh bullets hitting them that they're able to withstand the
(56:52) bullets. ballistic glass, glass that could withstand bullets. So, they're essentially bulletproof. Tires, right? Because maybe I don't shoot the the car, but I shoot the tires. So, you want to make sure tires have kevlar or something. Kevlar is like what bulletproof vests are actually made of. It's fabric. >> People think ballistic vests are made out of steel or metal or something.
(57:13) They're actually made out of fabric. >> Okay. >> Um, and that fabric when you put it layer upon layer, it it's it's it's very strong. So, but in Kevlar, though, here's what's interesting. In Kevlar, it can stop bullets. It can't stop a knife. So, you can actually shoot someone, it'll stop it, but if somebody goes to put a knife with certain ballistic vests, the knife will go through.
(57:34) >> Oh, >> yeah. So, there's different types of bulletproof vests. So, there's so so there there's different things. So, with the vehicles, they basically line them in such a way. They'll get the cars. In the United States, it's usually you'll see it's suburbans or Cadillacs, American cars.
(57:51) They get the vehicles and then the US Secret Service has their own team that will take the vehicles and put do things to the vehicles, shield the vehicle in such a way where it can withstand firepower where it can withstand explosives um or any other type of attack. That's how it's designed. And there's numerous cars.
(58:15) Now, when you do this though, the car becomes heavy. M. >> And so now you have to make sure too that the suspension of the car can hold all that weight. That's a whole other thing. >> Yeah. >> Because the chassis and suspensions of a car are designed to to hold 3,000 tons or 4,000 excuse me pounds or 4,000 lb, whatever it's designed to hold.
(58:37) When you add ballistic on top of it, the car gets heavier. So now you you may even have to change the framework of the car. So the car may sit lower. There's all these tactical things that go into place. So, you have to drive them a certain way. You have to be careful when you drive them.
(58:53) And again, because of the weight, when you speed with those cars, when you hit the brake, it slows down a lot slower. Uh, it's harder to slow down. It's kind of like driving a big truck. You know, when you see a a small car versus a big truck driving, if they're both going the same speed, the small car will stop faster.
(59:13) the bigger truck cuz it's carrying all that cargo. It's it's more dangerous. It's going to slop slower and then if it stops abruptly, the cargo can like literally break the metals and like come through. >> So you the the the ballistic vehicle is like that. So when you drive those cars, there's special training. They teach you to drive those cars.
(59:30) >> Is it slower? The car because of all this weight, the car can only go up to like 60 m hour of >> It's not slower. It's just you have to drive it differently and I can't say how fast it goes or not goes. >> Yeah. But then just the just the science like the the physics doesn't add up, right? Like it has to be slower because it's >> they make modifications to the car uh all sorts of modifications so that it can >> catch up to a certain speed.
(59:59) >> Yeah. So they modify not just the exterior of the car, everything so many things within the car itself. Another thing you used to do for the government was interrogation, right? How to interrogate in a nice way. >> So you have to be highly ethical when you do that stuff. You have to be highly ethical.
(1:00:22) So even with the polygraph, which is really polygraph's like a laptop, like that thing, it's a software system and then you could you connect components to people. Now, the polygraph's great, but if I'm not ethical, I can I can get you to fail it. >> Oh, >> yes. I can get you to fail it. Um, so you have to be very ethical and I I I because I was always um I understood the gravity of what we were doing and I never wanted to have like somebody else's life on my hands.
(1:00:52) Like I didn't want to be responsible for somebody spending the rest of their life in prison. I'm like, "No, thank you. I don't I need to sleep at night. It's not just for myself. >> Um, >> but you I I would always be very careful like there's a whole mathematical computation in how you do it. But I would always air I would give people more often the benefit of the doubt and it would be so so that if you failed my polygraph, you deserve to fail it.
(1:01:19) >> Where often I would get people inconclusive, which means they didn't pass it and fail and I would spend a lot more time. Um, but you might have some people go, "Nope, they failed clearly." And now, now the polygraph itself, if you fill a polygraph, you can't get, it's not admissible in court. The court doesn't care.
(1:01:36) At least here in the US, they don't care. But what they care about is what a person says. >> But where a polygraph would help is sometimes you would have people Raj who are very good liars, very good liars, and they would be like, "Nope, swear to God, never did this, blah blah blah blah." And there were times where even me, I'm like, man, I think I really want to believe this person.
(1:01:57) I really like him. I believe this guy. I want to believe in him. And I'm like, "All right, you know, let's just do the polygraph. Will be great." And I'm thinking, "Yeah, they're going to pass it." I hook them up and they fail that thing. And I'm like, and I remember one of the senior polygraph examiners, interviewers, interrogators, interrogators said to me, "Always trust your charts.
(1:02:17) Your charts are the data that you collect. the it it collects electrodermal activity, how much you sweat, it collects um the blood pressure, flow of blood in the body. Uh it collects a heart rate, it collects all sorts of stuff. So that data lets you know what's happening internally with that person. And if you feel threatened, your it's your autonomic nervous system. It it changes.
(1:02:41) So when you feel any kind of threat, your autonomic nervous system peaks to protect you. Let's say like you're walking crossing the street, a car goes to hit you. You do. Yeah. [gasps] >> Right. You you feel this influx of of adrenaline. Everything changes because your body is arming you to prepare you to fight, flight, or either get hit by the car.
(1:02:59) >> When you lie, it's the same thing. You fear getting caught in a lie. I want you to think about time you lied Raj and you're like man I hope I don't get caught >> or you got caught and think about the threat that you felt because getting caught in a lie it can be it can hurt your reputation it can hurt your business it can hurt your integrity can hurt that relationship with that person.
(1:03:23) >> Yeah. >> So getting caught in a lie causes a physical reaction. So the way the polygraph would work is you get asked a series of questions and the polygraph looks at how your autonomic nervous system things you can't control like you can't control how much you sweat you can't control your heart rate you can't control your blood flow you can't control these things um how they react to certain questions now you might say to me yeah but Evie I'm taking a polygraph I'm nervous of course >> I'm going to be freaked out during this
(1:03:51) whole thing right you're freaked out during the whole thing so that means every question I ask you, you're freaked out. So, your norm or your baseline >> is freaked out. >> It's freaked out all the time. >> But I'm looking for when I get to that one question, you extra freak out. >> And I'm like, wait a minute.
(1:04:10) I know he's freaked out the whole way here, >> but why when I ask this one question >> about let's say it's a it's a hiring polygraph. Raj, have you ever done drugs? I ask him this question all the way to the top. We got an extra freak out here. Why? That lets me know Raj has a problem with this question. Now, maybe the problem is >> Raj did a lot of drugs.
(1:04:33) Or maybe the problem is Raj didn't do a lot of drugs. Maybe Raj's parent did a lot of drugs or he has a friend who did a lot of drugs or sold drugs. And when he hears this question, it causes him to react. My job as a good examiner is to sit down and be like, Raj, talk to me. Talk to me about this question.
(1:04:52) And now I need to figure out what it is. That's how it works. But you don't control these things. >> So even how much you sweat, when you're feel threatened, you sweat more. Do you know why we sweat more when we feel threatened? >> No. >> Because your body is is creating um sweat so that when it thinks it's being attacked, so it's helping you prepare to fight.
(1:05:15) Well, when you grab a sweaty person, can you hold on to them? Slip. >> Slips. >> Your body Your body's smart. Your body's smart. So your body's getting prepared. Like so when they grab you, >> they can't hold on to you. >> It's evolutionary. >> The body is amazing. >> That's why sometimes people like, "Oh, I have anxiety. I have panics.
(1:05:32) " I'm like, "That's good stuff to have. Don't make it all go away cuz your body's protecting you." Being anxious or worrying, those are good. One, they're good qualities to have as a human being because it means you care cuz people who don't care don't have those reactions. And two, your body is arming you to protect you from whatever is happening to you in that moment.
(1:05:52) But can you catch someone [clears throat] like can you catch a lie without the polygraph test without something like can can if you and I are talking can you spot out like if I'm lying or no? >> Yes. If I want to Yes. >> Okay. How how to catch a lie? >> It depends on the person. So let's just use your example.
(1:06:12) You have a a baseline right of how you are. So you're for example like I'll give you an example. When you speak your tone is always the same. >> Yeah. >> You have a soft tone. You have a certain tone. But if I start talking to you, let's say I ask you a question about something maybe with your family and it's a very sensitive issue.
(1:06:29) If I hear a shift in your tone, I'm going to be like, "Oh, Raj has always been talking this way the whole time. Why the shift in tone? Why did he just peak or why did his voice just crack?" Or this whole conversation, Raj is answering questions. And the minute I asked him about his parents, he did this [clears throat] before he answered.
(1:06:48) He never did it before. If all I do in that moment is I ask myself, why did he just do that? >> So the the key here is when you do that, then I have to pay attention that you did that and I have to now ask you more questions about your parents. And maybe there's nothing. Maybe there's something.
(1:07:07) Most people let that stuff go. And that's the problem. So here's the thing. If I'm interviewing the whole time and the whole time we're talking you're doing uh uh uh then I'm like that's what Raj does. He's got something in his throat. He needs water. That's how you detect lies. I think what where people get uh stuck is they think everybody who's going to lie is going to scratch their nose.
(1:07:28) Like I hear crazy stuff like that all the time. >> Now look, if the whole time I'm talking to you, you're sitting like this, which you've been, you've have your pen in your hand, you have your arm crossed, >> and I ask you something very personal that you don't want to answer. And it could be either it's just personal, you don't want to answer it, or it's a secret, or there there's something that makes you uncomfortable, you want to lie.
(1:07:51) If all of a sudden you do this, I'm going to notice it cuz I'm going to say, "He didn't do it before. Why is he doing it now?" That's how it works. >> One part of your job was catching the lie. The other part was you've been a spy. You've been somebody who has lied to people, right? The Russian story I was listening like you lured a specific Russian.
(1:08:10) Was that your story? Remember? >> Oh, the Russians. >> Yeah. Like you were >> Which one? >> That's the one story I was reading that >> Oh, when I would do undercover work. >> Yes. You do undercover work. So you would you would live to lie, right? You would do undercover. Undercover is kind of being [clears throat] mixing up with people trying to do the espionage work. Yes.
(1:08:27) >> Being the spy. So you did that. So you lied for a living. >> I did. I did. I'm sorry. I did. [laughter] But for >> your whole identity was lie. You would become someone else. >> Yes. >> How to become a good liar. >> Well, when I did undercover work, one of the things that helped me is because I did not look like an agent.
(1:08:47) So I felt very safe. >> I felt very safe and comfortable and maybe confident because I did not think anybody would suspect me of anything. So that was a big thing. If you feel safe, you're not as nervous and scared. I remember once I pretended to be somebody who was being sex trafficked and I had to pretend to be from another country.
(1:09:08) >> Tell me about the story. Where was it? >> This was here actually in New York and it was with an organized crime ring. >> Mhm. And sadly in New York there's a lot of sex trafficking. Different countries uh do it. I had to pretend to be a girl girl from I think it was in I pretended to be from like the Eastern block Europe over there.
(1:09:28) So I had to adopt an accent so I could sound like that. >> And um >> what I was doing I was trying to infiltrate an organized crime ring that was selling passports uh real documents, real birth certificates, passports, originals uh to terrorists. this is actually really the case. So, you've got two crimes happening at the same time.
(1:09:49) But in this scenario, uh I needed to catch this organized crime ring that was selling legitimate documents to people in the US who wanted to commit crime by proxy though to everybody else, other other crime rings, other different things. So, I came in as a person who's being sex trafficked and I said, "Look, I'm here. They took my documents.
(1:10:09) I want to get a cell phone." You know, I would I would lie. Like, you can't do if once they take your documents here, you can't do anything. You can't even get a phone cuz they're going to ask you for ID. I don't have no ID. They took it all. I can't do anything. That's why it's really horrible what they do to these young girls. Um they them completely.
(1:10:25) And they are absolutely dependent on their the people that have brought them here and they can't get out of it. And they'll tell you, oh, you'll work it off, you'll get it back or they'll give you some money and then you go back to your host country if they let you leave. So in this scenario, I was trying to catch someone who was selling these documents.
(1:10:43) So I pretended to be sex trafficked so he could believe me. But I was really we were really looking at him. I wasn't looking at him. It wasn't my case. They were really looking at him as someone who was selling these documents all over the place uh to people. So I had to make deals with him. >> So I bought documents from him, gave him cash.
(1:11:03) He gave me documents, fake documents, fake name, fake this, but real passports and stuff. And then my job was to bring other girls to him to get paperwork. >> So that was an undercover that I did. And that was Albanian Russian. I This is But but it was an organized crime ring. I want to say he was Albanian. Um and I I did that one out of Brooklyn.
(1:11:23) So what I had to do here is because he was so hard to catch, I had to do numerous transactions. And it was me and we had some other girls who were they're not girls, they were law enforcement like me >> who didn't look it. We gathered enough on him and then the case agent took it to what's called a grand jury here in the US and they showed all the evidence and then said here they did this in secret because you don't want the guy to know that you're doing this cuz he's going to flee.
(1:11:48) >> They did this in secret and said look at everything all these transactions we've done. They're undercover. >> Can you give us a >> a warrant? A technically it's not a warrant. They give you an indictment. They indict the person which is sort of like saying yes, go arrest him. So, they give you that and when you get an indictment, it's locked in and you go get the person.
(1:12:08) The problem with arresting someone on the fly is if you don't have enough, then the prosecutors can say, "I don't have enough." You have to let them go. >> So, that's why you want to collect as much as you can. That way, it's locked tight. And when you take it to a grand jury and you get an indictment, you're pretty solid.
(1:12:24) That means you've worked with the prosecutors to say, "Yeah, yeah, you get me this, you got me this stuff, we're going to give you an indictment. Go get the person." So that's what the sex trafficking and it's sad because you would think New York City, right? NYPD, America, why do we have sex trafficking? And yet we do because people take advantage of the visa system.
(1:12:43) They take advantage of like how people come in. They take they take advantage, you know. So it's America is amazed and you allow for all these things. But when you allow for all these things, there's a there's a group of people that will abuse these systems. But were you able to catch the guy? >> They caught the guy? Yes, they caught the guy.
(1:13:06) I didn't uh cuz I was the undercover, but they did catch the guy. >> Yes. >> You've interrogated one of the top dreaded criminals in the world. You understand interrogation very well. You've extracted information out of people which has helped protect your country. You're one of the top experts in the world right now. Right.
(1:13:27) I want to understand if you would have gotten in the room with few people in the world how would you have interrogated them to extract certain information out of them so I'm going to bring one by one okay one is the highly spoken controversial man right now >> Epstein >> Jeffrey Epstein if you were to interrogate him how would you do that >> so you're looking at someone very wealthy knows everybody.
(1:13:57) I mean, this guy knew presidents from all sorts of countries, princes. Um, so you're going to deal with somebody what very confident, probably very narcissistic, and he's probably extremely narcissistic and arrogant because to do the stuff he did, right? He's thinking I'm untouchable. So, you're going to have that person in the room with him.
(1:14:17) You would need days with him. So, I'd say 5 days. I'd ask to sit and talk to him for 5 days if he's willing to meet with me. And let's say he is. The first few days I would talk about anything but the case. Tell me about yourself. How'd you grow up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I get you food? Do you need anything? How is it in here? I would just talk.
(1:14:37) I just want this guy talking. >> Is this guy cuz he's not going to be talking. >> This guy's smart. He's smart. He's not going to talk. So, I just want him talking. I need to build trust and build rapport. Here's the thing. When you're in law enforcement, remember how before we were talking about everybody hates police? >> Yeah.
(1:14:54) What kind of trust do you think you're going to have? Not zero, less than zero. So, I need to build trust with this guy. And maybe I just talk to him about anything and everything because I'm not expecting a confession from him, but what I would like to get from him is some information. I want to know how he did it. Maybe I want to know who was involved. I've already got him.
(1:15:14) So, I don't need the confession from Epstein because I actually have enough to convict him, right? But what I want from him if I I want to know who he played with, who was on his island, how did he get the girls, what did he do? I want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes.
(1:15:30) I want to know how big this thing goes. That's what I would want to know. You already got this guy. So, if you've got a Loctite case on him, it's like, talk to me about everybody else. That's what I want. And he might give you other people, >> right? >> To help himself. Maybe he gets uh not such a bad prison. Maybe he maybe he gets a slight slightly better deal.
(1:15:50) Again, it depends what you're charging him with. So, that's that's what you would do with this guy. So, him you're going to I would want to know who who his uh circle of people are, who he brought to the island, who did what, who did this, cuz I thought I can get more people and I can get these people because think about one of the issues with the Jeffrey Epstein case that people are very upset about and angry about is they want to know who else.
(1:16:12) He's gone. He's done. But it didn't die with them because they're like, "Wait, all these other people were committing all these crimes with him and they're influential people. They're powerful people. Who are they?" They want names. I wouldn't want names. That's Jeffrey. That he might give me >> if you if it helps. Yeah.
(1:16:33) If I build enough trust and I'm like, "Hey, Jeffrey, if you give me names, let me see what I can do. I'll talk to the >> But what would you have to made him believe for him to cooperate with other names?" that it's to his benefit that something positive for him can come come of it. >> Like you can tell that this is for because he know that he's going out.
(1:16:52) He's going in and he's never coming out. So you already know no amount of deal is >> cuz I don't know what they were to charge them yet. I mean I don't know like >> but with what we know of >> what we know >> he's never coming out like if he was a [snorts] person >> but you can make his stay a little bit better.
(1:17:10) It's also what kind of prison or jail is it going to be put in, right? Maybe it can be a a prison that's not so prisony, you know, that there's different types. So maybe you make his life a little bit easier. >> What type of prisons are there if you >> there? So there's jails, there's there's prisons, there's some uh prisons that are um and not maximum security, but minimum security, so it's a little bit easier.
(1:17:32) You have more movement, right? So there's there's different places they can house them in. So maybe you tell them, "Look, I'll put you in this minimum security prison. It's a better life style. Your food's better." Like when you're when you're locked up, little things make a difference cuz you have nothing. >> Fair, >> right? Or maybe he cares about something or someone in his life and you're like, "Hey, I'll make sure this person's >> is saved.
(1:17:53) " >> Yeah. Or taken care of or something. So there's there's things you can pull at if he has something he cares about. >> Got it. What would you do with him? How would you interrogate him? Because these are going to be two different people. >> So, he's You know what's interesting? This guy, this guy's more lethal than this guy.
(1:18:18) This guy's probably a little bit of a coward. And here's why. Who did he prey upon? >> Young women. Yeah. This guy's weak because you could tell cuz who he prayed upon. This guy's This guy's nothing. This guy might even cry in the room. This guy know cuz who did he deal with? Other drug dealers, right? Other dealers.
(1:18:45) He's moving stuff. He's lethal. Guns, weapons. This guy's really serious. So, another one that might not talk to you. Another one that might actually choke you out in the room. So, I'd want to make sure I'm safe. Number one. Um, with him, I would want to know about his network. Same thing. I already got you. I want to know about your network.
(1:19:02) Now, him, if he has family that he cares about, um, that's where you're going to get him. His family, his loved ones, making sure they're taken care of and safe. So, you might get him. You know what's interesting with with someone like this? It's like they have family they care about. Um, they give money back to society or the poor.
(1:19:20) They do other things. So, it's it's like a weird dichotomy. I'm dealing drugs. I'm doing this and I'm killing people with my drugs and I'll kill you. But at the same time, I take care of my community. I have my faith. So, it's almost like this, it's almost like this dual person that you're dealing with. So, I with him, I would approach the good part of him, not the drug dealer part.
(1:19:39) So, it's called chasing the good. I would chase the good part of him. You're a good man. You have a family. You care about you try to do the right thing by people. You help the community. You donate money. You care. You know, you're you're you're that's what you're going to focus on with him.
(1:19:55) I want the good part of Pablo, not the bad part of Pablo. So, same thing. Someone like this high level uh criminal, you need a few days with him. >> You're not going to get anything in a couple hours. >> And you're only going to talk about the good things so that he starts believing in it that you also believe him. >> Cuz if I cha it's chasing the good.
(1:20:12) If I talk to you and I pull out the good part of Raj, the good part of Raj is going to show up. If I sit and tell Raj what a terrible person he is and all the bad things he's done, what part of Raj am I going to pull out? The bad part of Raj. And the bad part of Raj is going to show up.
(1:20:28) And even if I'm right, you're going to have something called reactants. You're going to be defensive. You're going to you're going to fight me even if I'm right because I'm I'm hurting you. I'm I'm I'm not I'm knocking you down. So you have to like preserve people's dignity. Mhm. >> So with him, also a very smart person, a business woman, a business, excuse me, a business person.
(1:20:49) So you want to talk to him a certain way and treat me with respect. This guy's going to be big on respect, by the way. >> So you have to show him respect in the room, >> because he's always been treated with respect. >> Exactly. >> He wouldn't like it if you show him his place. >> Oh, and he's going to look at me like I'm nothing. I'm Pablo Escobar.
(1:21:06) Who are you? Some stupid little secret service agent. What do you think you're going to get out of me? So maybe in some ways like he'd underestimate me. Also, I'm a woman. He might look at me like, "Oh, what's she going to do?" So he might just talk to me about whatever. Talk to me about whatever.
(1:21:20) I don't care as long as he's talking. >> H because he would not talk at first place at all because his ego won't allow to talk to you. >> I think some these pe someone like this is smart. It's smart unless he gets something out of it. And again, unless let's let's say you have his family, you repented his family, a spouse or children or anything.
(1:21:39) You're like, "Hey, I'll make sure they're taken care of if you do this." >> Well, what are you trying to get out of him because you've caught on his network? You've got on every >> No, I got him. I don't have his whole network. >> Yeah, but but you caught him because >> But maybe I want to get the number two Escobar, the number three Escobar, so nobody else jumps in.
(1:21:56) All these guys move. I want to run it bring the system down. Maybe he can tell me about the other dealers, the other cartels. >> There's always something to learn. That's that's why you do interviews. Usually at this point when you have someone like this and this, you don't need the confession. >> Mhm. >> A confession is nice, but most of the time you if something like this, you don't need it.
(1:22:19) Cuz if you're going after somebody like this, you've got you've got enough to lock him away. You don't want to mess around. >> Yeah. >> So that's what I would do. >> Mess around. Let's say you lock him up. >> You arrest him and then you you have to let him go. You want to make sure that when you arrest somebody that you don't have to let them go and that's that you've got and the charges and and the proof that you have is tight enough to hold them.
(1:22:41) That's one of the worst things that can happen when you arrest someone and this was with my cases too. When I would uh work a case, I always would go to the US attorney's office. That's how it works here, which is a person who would prosecute and I'd say, "I'm investigating Pablo. Uh this is what I have. Can we get him?" And most often they'd say, "We can get them, but I don't know if I can hold them.
(1:23:01) What I need you to do is go get me this, this, this, and this. You get me this. We got a Loctite case." And so you would go out and try to get the different things. So like when I worked undercover, part of the reason I was doing the undercover stuff or I was asked to do it is they didn't have enough. M >> you want enough evidence on someone that you've got them so that if they have a really good attorney or they try to argue that they can't get out of it that you want to make sure you get a guilty verdict if they go to trial cuz all this
(1:23:29) is for nothing if the guy's found not guilty. >> Fair. Let me change again a little bit. These two are different and this is how would you interrogate him because he's not like any of them? No, >> with Ted Bundy, I would kind of talk to him about his life and his childhood. >> You know what he >> What are you trying to get out of him? >> I want first I just want to talk it's always like these guys are like all heavy hitters.
(1:24:00) So you don't need these are all full day like multiple day interviews. Just let's be clear. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> These guys are multiple day interviewers. With him, you know what's interesting with him? You might want to understand why he did it. uh because there's no other network of people with him. These guys are different. Here's a he's a sole actor.
(1:24:18) So with him it would be like can you get the confession? I think it also with him more would be like what's going on up here cuz it's a very unique situation with how he was uh targeting people, luring them in, killing people. You want to understand he's more of understanding human behavior. This is kind of like serial killer type of psychology.
(1:24:42) And what prompts someone to get to this point? So, this would be more of a psychoanalysis. This actually wouldn't be hard because again, assuming I don't need a confession. >> If I need a confession, it it's tough >> because now I'm trying to get you to confess and I'm getting you to confess and getting you to confess. >> But with him, this would be more of a why why did you do what you did? Why did you target people? And can you prevent behavior like this in the future? Like what? Let someone like this doesn't get there overnight. You don't become a
(1:25:10) serial killer overnight. I remember once you asked me before about polygraphs when I would do applicants. I remember I had one applicant who was wanted to be a secret service agent and he told me when he was growing up he would burn cats like he would set cats on fire. So I was like, "All right, tell me how many cats.
(1:25:31) " And I always started high, >> a thousand, you know, 900. I mean, I gave some crazy numbers in case it was 1,000 or 900. So I think it was like, he's like, "Oh, maybe I've burned like about 100 cats growing up." And I was like, "Tell me about why you would burn them." >> Now, why do I care about him burning cats? I mean, it's wrong to hurt animals, but if you're burning cats, what's next? Do you see? You start off maybe with kicking the cat, maybe declawing it, pulling it, hitting it.
(1:25:59) Then you burn it a little bit. You burn it a little bit more. Then I'm going to burn another cat, another cat. That's how these guys serial killers go. Next, and then next. Everything's a slippery slope in life, Raj. If you don't keep yourself in check, you can make anything okay. Anything you want, okay? If you want to. So, he didn't become Ted Bundy overnight.
(1:26:21) Things happened to him over a period of time. He did this and then this and then this and then this then you get to this place. So I would want to understand him. >> But then see with with these two guys you're for him you're trying to understand who else is involved with him you're trying to understand how the cartel operates and what is the how with >> I want to know how the cartel does in the operations right their tunnels how they bring the drugs over.
(1:26:44) I mean these guys some of the they use submarines they buy submarines. It's ingenious. They have tactical gear. They have military grade gear. Who gave you the gear? Is it the government? Cuz there's there's times where I would go work in Central or South America and with some countries, they were like, "Be careful." Cuz a lot of the the police were in uh worked with the cartels.
(1:27:07) So, I had to be really careful. >> So, yeah. So, with these guys, you we know what you're trying to get out of them. With him, why do you want to know about the childhood? What what will be the outcome if you get to know? you prevent people like this from coming into the world and then you know because you're getting >> can you stop at certain point in childhood where things >> are there things you can do are there signs you can see in other people right think of mass shootings we have them here in the US or random shootings or
(1:27:32) right so what are some of the indicators to prevent that so this is more of like understanding the human mind the psychology of it that's really what you would get from this person here um and you'd want to know how'd you lure them but lure people in or get people in He he it was very kind of simple what he did.
(1:27:51) So there's no other intricate thing. He would be more of understanding him and and how people like him think and behave. Look, it helps you. I do the news and whenever an incident happens often I'll be on air with someone. Oh, another crazy person did this. And I always think to myself, when you label somebody crazy, how does that help? How can you prevent stuff from like this happening? If everybody's crazy, then there's nothing to do.
(1:28:17) We just label everybody crazy. But when you try to understand the human mind, >> what breaks people or causes people to get to this point, can you prevent it? Because crime's not going to stop, Raj. But what can you do to minimize this stuff? Otherwise, we should just let everybody do whatever and then all we do is punish people.
(1:28:35) You want to be preemptive. So, it's not just about being reactive. You commit a crime, you throw handcuffs on a person, this and that. Are there things we can do to stop? So like the US Secret Service, they have the National Threat Assessment Center where they try to assess and they've actually worked with the Department of Education in the past, which is the school system here, to try to help them identify a school shooter before they do it.
(1:29:00) >> They looked at characteristics. So if you can figure out what characteristics exist between the Ted Bundy's of the world or serial killers or people do this stuff, you can help maybe minimize or prevent it or teach uh schools or systems or workplaces or police to look for signals that maybe you can catch this stuff before it gets bad.
(1:29:21) >> What signals did you read? Like what signals were did they find out in guys who would turn into a mass shooter? >> Mass shooters. So there's a couple of things that you would see. Um, one of them, >> are there signs in a child that you can tell that this person's might become psychopath? >> It's it's it's behavior stuff.
(1:29:39) So, so a couple of patterns you would see. One was people who committed mass shootings tend to have something happen to them like a a life change or maybe a breakup with a girlfriend or a partner or a spouse, something happened there. That's one. So, you would see that. You would also see um they had access to weapons.
(1:29:58) So they were able to either there was a weapon in the home and they they they knew someone who gave them the weapon. There certain attributes. They typically communicated to someone at some point. So at some point they've told somebody I'm going to do this whether in joke or not.
(1:30:15) Um so that's another thing that they would look at. This the all these little things help school spot the person in advance because the point is >> but these are such normal things, right? Like I'm not talking about access to weapon but having a breakup or telling your friends that I would do some >> but not everybody not everybody has the same internal fortitude that you have not everybody's stable people there's people who are of weak mind and body >> I understand that but how can you identify this as a pattern because >> you can see 100 people going through
(1:30:48) breakup and 100 people joking about hey you know what I'm going to kill that person and like >> sometime Sometimes it could be just jokes and randomly people talking about it, >> right? But the point is to pay attention and maybe to ask that student, hey, come into the office, let me talk to you. Or if that person works for you, hey, come on here so that you at least notify, you can notify somebody. That's the thing.
(1:31:09) >> Maybe you can notify, maybe you can see that off behavior and you can tell somebody. Um, and sometimes police can't do anything. That that's another problem. Like sometimes people also sometimes if it's an adult with mass shooters, you may see that they've been uh uh interviewed by law enforcement before at some point.
(1:31:29) That's also another uh possibility. So with that, it just helps show certain indicators that you'll see amongst these people. >> It it they're not easy things to spot. No, but often too they're planning them. So who did they share the plans with? if they live with someone in the house, uh, a person in the home maybe can notice the behavior and say something.
(1:31:52) >> Most often, the problem with these mass shootings is people don't notify anybody or they don't notify, hey, you know, uh, I live with my with Ted. Ted's been acting a little weird lately. Can I talk to someone about it? And until it's too late, maybe at least if you put Ted on the radar and people are looking into Ted, maybe they can do something to intercept Ted's behavior so people don't die.
(1:32:19) >> It might stop at one or two and not extend to like hundreds. >> Exactly. So you're looking at Ted and Ted's fine, but I want to make sure Ted doesn't kill other people. >> What can I do to stop Ted from taking lives? You're really just trying to preserve human life at the end. So, if I can intercept it, get this mass shooter some help. Right.
(1:32:39) Ted's not a mass shooter, but if I can get the mass shooter some help, I can prevent it. >> True. Here's the last person that I want to understand about this one's close to you. >> Huh? Osama bin Laden. >> How would you interrogate him and what will you try to find out from him? >> So, I've interviewed terrorists before. Um, the one thing with Osama, you're going to spend days.
(1:33:04) Osama is going to love talking about himself and his cause and uh his organization. So, you're going to have uh one of the reasons they think he did what he did was for significance cuz he came from a big family and I think he was kind of overlooked by some of his family members. So, he wanted to stand out.
(1:33:23) He was there was there's theories that he was an insecure individual and so this is why he did what he did. So with him, you would want to you would want to tap into that. You know, tell me about what you did. Tell me about why you're doing this. He's going to want to profess to you, I did this for the greater good. He he thinks 9/11 was a good thing. Yes. Yes.
(1:33:43) >> Yeah. That's what he believes in. Yeah. >> Tell me why you believe that. Tell me why you feel wrong. He wants a platform to to profess. Give it to him. Sure, I'll listen. And what will you achieve out of that when you give him a platform and in an interrogation you know he's going to say the same five things which he's been saying in the world what are you going to achieve out of this? >> So when people talk Raj they leak information.
(1:34:10) So when they're talking even though they think they're not saying anything they're saying something. >> So what are you looking for? >> I'm looking for names. I'm looking for places. I'm looking for locations. I'm looking to who they're talking to. I'm looking for dates of when he was where and he might think I'm not.
(1:34:26) This is stupid stuff I'll tell her. But maybe I have intelligence on something else and I want to corroborate dates and times. Maybe I can link other attacks to him. Maybe I can figure out where he's getting his guns from. Maybe I can figure out who's next in command after him. Maybe I can figure out who he's working with.
(1:34:41) Maybe I can figure out how big his network is and what other countries it spans into. Maybe I can figure out where his money is come coming from. Who's giving him money? He needs money to do this. Where are you getting your money from? So I I want to understand terrorism. This is terrorism. >> And that you can achieve when you give him a platform to understand his cause.
(1:35:00) >> I'm his platform. Tell me tell me more. Really? >> I make him believe that you understand the cause. That's how >> I do understand the cause. I don't agree with the cause. I accept it. See, here's the deal. >> But you're going to make him believe that you are understanding the cause and you are trying to understand more so that he starts believing you more and start talking.
(1:35:16) >> But I want information. And all these people more or less are giving me information either to prevent something happening in the future so we can take the stuff. You have to learn from the people you arrest. >> You have to learn from criminals there. None of these people are stupid. Do do you agree with me on that? >> Yeah.
(1:35:33) >> They're all smart people. They all figured out ways to circumvent things. I want to know. Do you know many times I would arrest someone and I'm like, how did they pull this off? Especially fraud. There were some people that would run these really intelligent scams and I'm thinking, "How did this guy pull this off?" And I'd sit in the room and I I would be like, "I have to tell you.
(1:35:50) I worked a lot of criminal cases. I'm impressed. How did you do it?" And sometimes just that alone would be like, "Oh, let me tell you." Cuz all these dudes are narcissists. >> Oh, so the moment you tell them that you're impressed and you actually >> I'm impressed. Yeah. Some Some, not all, but some of I'm like I'm impressed.
(1:36:07) I How did you do this? Oh, let me tell you how I did it. >> Please tell me. >> They get excited. Some do. >> That's a trick that you guys will put off. >> It's not I don't know if it's a trick. It's true. I'm impressed. I don't know how you did this. I would have never seen this coming. Would you ever seen like the idea of somebody flying two flying commercial planes into the buildings? And where would you see that? Like the imagination that that took to create? Who thinks to do that? Who thinks to do that? This guy. And then
(1:36:36) what other what other plans does he have in place? cuz you're assuming just because I caught him that there's nothing else going down, right? Who are the assets? Does he have spies? Does he have people talking to other people? I I want to know. So, everything's going to lead to somewhere if you take the time to talk.
(1:36:57) I'll say this one mistake that sometimes investigators do, police do. They think, "I got my guy. I'm going to tell you what a piece of garbage you are, and I'm going to put you through the system, but I got my guy. you don't know what other victims this guy has. >> Uh I would especially see this with uh child abuse cases or child sexual abuse cases or predators like guys like this.
(1:37:21) >> Let's say I got Jeffrey and I I know he victimized one girl, but there's probably with with child victims, there's another 200 girls usually with these guys. But what police do is like, "Oh, I caught the guy that did this to this person. You How do you know there's no other victims? I want to catch the other victims that this person's had and then link them to him.
(1:37:44) So, people who commit crime don't often commit one crime. They have multiple victims. There's multiple plans. There's multiple attacks they're doing. >> Who would be the easiest to talk to and the toughest to talk to? [sighs] >> Him. I could talk to him. I could talk to He might be tough cuz he's a dealer, a drug dealer. cartels.
(1:38:06) I mean, they're Osama might not be tough. He might, it might be. He might be tough for me because I'm a woman and I'm white. So, I'm like the lowest of the low for him, which is why I learned Arabic because I did interviews overseas. So, I knew I was going in at a deficit. I'm a woman. I'm white. I'm I'm Christian. I'm American.
(1:38:25) I mean, I've got nothing going for me. Less than zero. Um, so often I would actually go with a male partner. And even if my male partner was junior to me, I would let my male partner partner lead and I would be in behind. But I learned Arabic because I'm like, I have to find things ways to connect with this person.
(1:38:45) And so over time, it almost would happen all the time. I would they would start looking at me instead of my partner and I would start talking and I would throw in some Arabic and they're like, "Oh, she speaks some." And I would listen and I would just have conversations. You know what I didn't do? I never brought up 9/11. I never said, "Hey, you know those two big buildings you knocked down? I was in them." I never said that.
(1:39:04) I mean, excuse me, I was there. I never said that because who did I make that interview about when I did that? >> He doesn't need to know. >> I would never tell him >> cuz now it's personal. >> And that would be your mistake. >> My goal is where's the next next attack coming from? >> Yeah. So, okay, just last two questions on this.
(1:39:26) The one is who would be the toughest to talk to would be you think >> I think he might be the toughest for me >> because I'm a a white female blonde. Maybe maybe people surprise you. >> Yeah. >> You don't know who people are. You don't know what's going on. But I think he might be the toughest. >> And >> cuz you know what too? He's willing to die for what he believes in.
(1:39:47) He's willing to die because that's what this is premise on death. I will die for my cause. This is a deep deep ideology, a deep belief. This was for himself, right? This is he's abusing girls, he's dealing drugs, he's making money, right? This guy's just got psychopath, right? Issues. >> No one's willing to die for >> this guy's willing to die for what he believes in. This is a deep faith.
(1:40:14) This is harder. >> And what one mistake you could make with each one of them? one one mistake an interrogator could make which will just blow up the entire interrogation. >> You say something that isn't true. You make an assumption >> like you you said with him the moment you tell him something personal that you were there in the building it would just blow it up everything because you you've made it personal made >> I would never bring up 9/11 my personal experience never. Never.
(1:40:41) >> Yeah. So that's the biggest mistake you can make with them. Guys, what would be the mistake an interrogator could could make which will blow up the entire interrogation? >> The one thing you don't want to do. It's like how could you do this? I started making them feel like if you're like I can't believe you.
(1:40:59) You sexually assaulted all those girls. You abused. You brought these girls. Who does that? What kind of sick person are you? It's just game over. You have to leave your ego out of the room. And sometimes people can't. And like no matter what he tells you, you have to accept it. You're not agreeing. I'm accepting. And you also have to not show it in your face.
(1:41:21) If you show disgust in your face, Raj, he's not going to talk to you. He's going to filter what he says. He's going to stop talking alto together. Your goal is to get information. Your goal is not to be the judge and jury. The goal is to be a neutral slate that they can each talk to. You have to bring the version of you that they need to open up and for you to get information. It is not about you.
(1:41:41) Most often people bring themselves and you should not bring yourself. >> I don't matter. The victims matter. So I need to find out what he was doing and how he did it. I also need to find out who else parttook in this because there has to be justice because it's the right thing to those victims.
(1:41:59) And you also want to make sure other you're assuming he's the only guy that's doing this. How do you know? How do you know there's not another guy that's doing this and he knows about them? I want to know. >> I want to know who else they're talking to. You get enough people, they get if you know how to talk to people and they start to talk about other people, it's like give me information. Uh talk talk.
(1:42:20) Which is ironic. I hate to talk. I do it for a podcast, but in real life, I don't like to talk. >> I like to be quiet and listen. You learn more. You learn more. So with all these people, the biggest mistake you can do is judge them and show it in your face. and anything in life when you when people feel judged and it can be hard especially in personal relationships where you want to look at someone and be like what the are you thinking what are you doing are you crazy but the minute you do that you lose them it's
(1:42:50) hard >> true >> it's hard I think personal relationships are harder these guys not so much cuz I can detach >> you know you while we were doing the briefing you said something very interesting you said it's the worst time to be a world leader >> why >> I I think so. Here's the thing. When you meant two things.
(1:43:10) When you meant to harm a world leader, like for example, the president of the United States, if you went to harm him or you wanted to voice harm, there's only a couple of ways you could do it. You could you had to physically show up somewhere to harm him. Um you would have to write a letter. >> Mhm. >> Cuz people write letters.
(1:43:27) Um or you would have to phone it in. And so that level of contagion of hate was kind of isolated. So now you move to social media where everybody has a voice. Everybody and anybody have a voice. You've given everybody a megaphone. And I do think not everybody I think we've shown as humanity like we're not responsible and accountable enough uh to have this.
(1:43:50) And I mean this across the board even some politicians I read things I'm like why are you you're you're a leader. Why would you write such a thing? And this is across the board. Um this is one side versus another. It's very sometimes disappointing when I see the things people write. So, but what happens is, think of it this way. You're in a mob.
(1:44:08) It's a mob, but it's an online mob. And so, when you see hate here, hate here, hate here, narratives, it it's infectious. And so, people now jump on this bandwagon. Half the time they don't know what they're reading is true. And even having worked in government, I can't tell you how many times it would either be people would come to me with their conspiracy theories or theories or tell me things that I knew factually were not true.
(1:44:33) Sometimes I couldn't say anything and I'm thinking, "Wow, they just they they whatever they read they think is true." And so hate is infectious. So if you keep reading like this world leader is horrible, that world leader is horrible, this is happening and and and people just write whatever then it it does not just create more hate.
(1:44:56) What it does is people think that this world leader, this person's a horrible person and the world would be better if I got rid of them. And so now they think that what they're doing or if they try to cause harm, it's justified. I'm doing something good in the world. Look at all these people writing all these hateful things.
(1:45:13) I'm going to get rid of this person. And they don't realize that there's human beings can justify and sell anything to themselves. >> Yeah. I I did criminal polygraphs crimes and I would sit across people and they would do some some crimes were big sometimes were small but no matter what crime it was I am telling you Raj I think 99.
(1:45:37) 9% of the time they sold it to themselves I know I did this but I did it because of X Y and Z you can justify anything you can justify hurting another human being >> whether emotionally or physically if you want to sell it to yourself you will I had one it was a bank employee a person who worked in the bank and they were stealing money from the bank.
(1:45:57) Most fraud in banks half of it probably half of it happens from within the bank and this person was stealing money because so I'm interviewing them and I'm like hey you know tell me about you know you taking that money and after some time the person finally says yes I took the money cuz I was doing the polygraph I was interviewing them and they're like listen yeah but it's not my fault I took the money it's their fault and so I'm like please please explain well they left the money out they didn't secure the money when you get money when the
(1:46:25) money of the bank supposed to be secured in this location. They should have cameras. They should lock it up. Uh but they didn't do that. They left the money out. There were no cameras in the area. So clearly they don't care about their their customers money. So if they cared, they'd lock it up, not leave it out there.
(1:46:44) So it's their fault I stole the money. If you care about that money, lock it up. But to me, they don't care about the money. They didn't care if I took it. That's how they justified it. That's how they sold it to themselves. So people do that consistently. Now, when it comes back to threats, people can justify why they would want to hurt or harm a world leader because there's plenty of negative things to read.
(1:47:03) >> Um, the other thing is what's becoming a problem, especially with this current environment, people now post their threats. So, if you're doing protection, like one of the things the Secret Service has to do is they have to look at a threat and then say, is this credible? Is it not? And do I have the manpower to send to go talk to this person? So think about now all the people writing these hate not just hateful things but I want to kill or I want to take out right do I [snorts] have enough people all over the
(1:47:35) country to send to to go interview this person and if I interview this person um I have to make a decision are they truly going to cause harm or not are they a threat or not because there are times where you're like all right I don't think there's anything here but then that person goes and does something and now you're in trouble because you didn't deem it a credible threat. It is very hard.
(1:47:57) So now you're not just chasing people that show up, people that write letters, or people that make calls. Now you have to go through all these social media feeds. You have to work with the social media companies and call up X and say, "Hey X, um, Big Guns wrote this comment that they want to take out the president. Can you please release to me >> who Big Guns is?" the the handle big guns.
(1:48:21) >> Uh where are they located? I need to go interview and find this person and is ex going to give that to you because there's privacy issues. So the the it's a horrible environment to be in. >> Well, here's last three questions which I ask every guest. Okay. One is when have you felt the most powerless in your life? Probably I think 911 was probably the the day I felt very power powerless because I was at the World Trade Center and it's where we worked and you're watching thousands of people die and you can't do anything.
(1:49:02) specifically when I remember I was standing by uh the Vessie Street, the Westside Highway, and that's when both towers were on fire, and there were people, you could see, they don't show it now in the news, but you could see people in the holes waving stuff. And there was a lot of people, a lot.
(1:49:27) And you see them there, and they're all the way up there, and you don't know how to get to them. and they started jumping. They would just jump. And you're literally watching people choose to jump rather than burn. And there's nothing you can do. And you feel like absolutely worthless. That human beings are dying and you can't do anything other than watch them die. That's That was sad.
(1:49:58) That's worthless. How did you overcome that? Cuz that sight must have given you nightmares for months. >> You overcome it one, you know, like I have this saying, I'm not that special. And I anytime I begin to feel sad or cuz we're all human. I always tell myself, I'm not that special. There's somebody who's got it worse than me, is going through harder things than I am, and I'm not that special.
(1:50:29) Cuz like when you think you're special, you think your problems are special. You think your pain is special. You think your suffering is special. And I'm not. The other thing is there were a lot of more people that lost there were people that lost more than I did on that day. So I always remind myself of that. I remind myself that I lived and others did not.
(1:50:47) And so I promised myself that if I would live through it, which I did, I would live a a good life. When I say good life, um, you know, I chased meaning over money. And not that money is bad. I believe in wealth and and and all that stuff. I think it's a good thing. But I I promised myself that if my time came again cuz I was lucky. I wasn't killed.
(1:51:09) I could have been. It was moment where I was I probably should have died and I did not. And I promised myself, you know, if I live through this, I'm going to live a meaningful life so that when I go the next time, cuz next time's going to come, I'm ready to go. So I I I chose to look at it as a as a blessing.
(1:51:30) >> See, you have you have protected people, you have gathered information, you have interrogated people in your life, you have lied for living. >> I'm a good liar. >> You're a good liar, right? You've caught people lying. You've protected presidents and you've served the country. You've done so many things.
(1:51:52) To be successful at what you do, what is the cost that you personally paid? Pain. You got to be good at taking pain. Pain. That's it. Pain. If you're good at eating if you're good at the world and and life being hard, you're going to be fine. You'll be successful. I don't care how smart you are, how skilled you are.
(1:52:14) None of that matters. You must be resilient. You must have a pain tolerance. Pain I you can sit and wallow in it. And I'm not saying that sometimes we're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe this happened to me." Uh I it and you can, but you're going to get stuck. Bad things happen to everybody all the time. It's the people that keep moving.
(1:52:34) You have to keep moving. And and also, you know what I'll say to people? When something terrible happens to you, it doesn't mean it's not terrible. Please don't make it an excuse. Well, this bad thing happened to me and that's why I did this. This bad thing happened to me and that's why I'm stuck here. It's still a choice.
(1:52:54) You you and I say it not to make people feel bad, but to to to let you know like you can choose. Don't let anybody make you think like and I think sometimes in an effort sometimes it's like we the narrative becomes a little bit like oh this bad thing happens to you that's why you behave this way and then now people think oh I am stuck here and it's like you're not you're not so that's where that victim thing comes in I'm a victim of this this person did that I always always always anything bad happens to me or anything negative I always ask myself
(1:53:26) what role did I play in this [snorts] because when I do that, I never blame anybody else. Even when people wrong me, we're all going to get wrong. I always look at what could I have done differently because when I do that, I bring the power back to me. I'm in charge. I I I have power to change my circumstance.
(1:53:45) But when this guy was a jerk to me or that person talked about me or this person did this bad thing to me, this person lied to me or this person manipulated me, I I am powerless. So I guess it's two things. One is be able to look at yourself and say, "How am I responsible here? And what can I do differently?" Cuz that makes you powerful.
(1:54:07) It doesn't mean you blame yourself. Uh-uh. Uh- uh. It means you I have the ability to change this. And the two is withstanding the bad stuff. If you can withstand the pain, it's pain tolerance. Have great pain tolerance, you'll be fine. But it's people that don't have good pain tolerance that they just they become annihilated.
(1:54:27) But does that make you numb? Is the cost of surviving in your career is becoming numb. Not feel pain at all. >> No, you're resilient. You don't not feel. You feel >> and you >> It just doesn't crush you. It doesn't crush you. It's not that you don't feel anything. You feel for every I would feel for people I arrested. There were people I felt bad for that I arrested. I couldn't not arrest them.
(1:54:50) So, I was kind to them or respectful to them. I would make sure they ate or fed them. Or sometimes I would ask people, I would tell people, I have to arrest you. And this was with non-violent crimes. Do you want me to show up at your house or your work, or do you want to show up to my office? I'll give you a choice.
(1:55:06) And these were people that I knew I could track them. So, I would give people a choice. Do you want to self-surrender? It's called self-surrender. Do you want me to come find you? What do you What would you like? So, I I I was I'm a human being. I don't have to be a jerk in life.
(1:55:22) like I feel um I just I can you can feel and still do it. People think like oh I don't want to feel bad. I feel bad about many things. I feel shame about many things. I feel guilt about many things. I suffer like everybody else. I just I still experience it but I keep moving. What do they say? You know progress no matter how slow is still progress.
(1:55:44) It's not about not feeling. That's why sometimes people think like I want to forget that this happened to me. I want to forget the pain. Why? Why? It's a when you feel bad, it means you're a good human being. >> Agreed. Agreed. Well, thank you so much for coming here, spending time with us and teaching us about so many things.
(1:56:05) Thank you. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hello. Nice to meet you. Good to meet you. This is >> Thank you for having me on. At that time you wouldn't have seen like the real India, right? You would be on duty. You would be on I mean >> yeah I mean you're the country. >> Yes. I mean sometimes like when you if you get some downtime but again you're in that bubble >> so you don't get to really go too far like you have to stay with the group in a sense.
(1:56:33) >> Exactly. And then that I'm assuming in every country would be same like the nice hotel everywhere it's the same thing. You do you stay usually near them or where they stay. [music] >> Yeah. >> Which is obvious. Yeah. And then also though for safety reasons too. And let me think about this if I can share this.
(1:56:52) [music] Bathrooms sometimes are used as hard rooms. They're called the rooms where you can tactically [music] fight. So you're looking at as a bathroom. I'm looking at it as bathrooms are great places [music] to stage a fight >> to protect because there's there's one way in, one way out. So, if I'm going to have my protectee, I'm going to throw the him in there [music] and that doorway is the only way in and out and that's going to be my fighting stance.
(1:57:22) So, that might have been their hard room. >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(1:57:41) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
Author Name:Raj Shamani
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@rajshamani
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYgRL456ps
Title: How To Break Anyone & Make Them Reveal Their Secrets | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
Description: This episode is brought to you by Urban Platter. To know more, checkout: https://bit.ly/urban-platter-figuring...
Get your hand-picked playbook here: https://www.figuringout.co/pdf/fo-563
Evy Poumpouras, former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent who spent over a decade protecting several American Presidents and served on the Presidential Protective Division for Barack and Michelle Obama, before becoming a trained interrogator, polygraph examiner, and behavioral expert.
She explains:
◼ How the Secret Service exam filters out nearly every candidate who attempts it
◼ What presidential security actually looks like inside a clean zone with counter-snipers and armored vehicles
◼ How Evy Poumpouras went from NYPD cop to the Presidential Protective Division for Barack and Michelle Obama
◼ How to get a criminal talking using one psychology trick trained interrogators rely on
◼ Why foreign governments resist cooperating with US security teams even on friendly diplomatic visits
◼ What happened when she ran an undercover operation that busted a Russian passport-trafficking ring
◼ How polygraph examiners are trained to catch a lie, and what bulletproof vests have to do with it
◼ How she would approach interrogating Jeffrey Epstein and what questions she believes matter most
Also covered: Evy Poumpouras, Secret Service, Presidential Protective Division, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, NYPD, polygraph examiner, Jeffrey Epstein interrogation, Ted Bundy, Osama bin Laden
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
03:25 - From NYPD Cop to Protecting the President: Her Untold Story
09:17 - The Brutal Secret Service Exam Almost Nobody Passes
20:34 - The Hate She Faced as a Young Cop on the Street
26:46 - The Psychology Trick That Gets Even Criminals to Talk
33:46 - Inside Presidential Security: Snipers, Clean Zones & Hidden Threats
45:22 - The Diplomatic Nightmare of Guarding a Leader on Foreign Soil
49:43 - Why Even "Friendly" Governments Resist US Security Demands
56:22 - Bulletproof Vests & the Science of Catching a Lie
1:07:56 - Going Undercover: A Russian Sting & a Passport-Trafficking Bust
1:13:11 - How She'd Interrogate Jeffrey Epstein and Ted Bundy
1:29:21 - Signs of Psychopathy
1:32:44 - What Would She Ask Osama Bin Laden in an Interrogation?
1:40:16 - What's One Mistake Investigators Can Make to Blow Up the Interrogation?
1:42:56 - Why Is It the Worst Time to Be a World Leader?
1:48:34 - When Has She Felt the Most Powerless in Her Life?
1:51:30 - What's the Cost of Being Successful at What She Does?
1:56:06 - BTS
1:57:25 - Outro
Follow Evy Poumpouras here:
Instagram: / evypoumpouras
X: https://x.com/EvyPoumpouras
LinkedIn: / evypoumpouras
If you liked this, watch next:
▸
Protecting the President: Security, VIP Threats & ADC Life | Major Rishabh→ • Protecting the President: Security, VIP Th...
▸ Ex-Russian Spy on Putin vs Trump, US Secrets, Crimes, Jail & War | Jack Barsky → • Ex-Russian Spy on Putin vs Trump, US Secre...
Listen to Figuring Out:
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Clips Channel: / @rajshamaniclips
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WhatsApp Channel: https://www.whatsapp.com/channel/0029...
More from us:
Suggest a guest: https://forms.gle/bnaeY3FpoFU9ZjA47
'Build, Don't Talk' (English): https://amzn.eu/d/eCfijRu
'Build, Don't Talk' (Hindi): https://amzn.eu/d/4wZISO0
Shot on:
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Lighting: https://amzn.in/d/0a3XY8Gn
About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
Follow Raj Shamani:
Instagram: / rajshamani
X/Twitter: https://x.com/rajshamani
Facebook: / shamaniraj
LinkedIn: / rajshamani
About Figuring Out
Figuring Out is a Candid Conversations University where Raj Shamani brings raw conversations with the Top 1% in India and around the world.
Disclaimer: This video is intended solely for educational purposes and the opinions shared by the guest are his/her personal views. We do not intend to defame or harm any person, brand, product, country or profession mentioned in the video. Our goal is to provide information to help the audience make informed choices. The media used in this video is solely for informational purposes and belongs to its respective owners.
#EvyPoumpouras #SecretService #Interrogation #RajShamani #FiguringOut #Podcast
## వీడియో ముఖ్యాంశాలు
ఈ వీడియోలో రాజ్ శమానీ, మాజీ అమెరికా సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ స్పెషల్ ఏజెంట్ **ఈవీ పౌంపౌరస్**తో అధ్యక్ష భద్రత, విచారణ పద్ధతులు, అబద్ధాలను గుర్తించడం, మానసిక ప్రభావ వ్యూహాలు, నేర పరిశోధన గురించి మాట్లాడారు. వీడియో వ్యవధి సుమారు **1 గంట 57 నిమిషాలు 52 సెకన్లు**.[1]
## 1. అధ్యక్షుడి భద్రత
- అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడిని రక్షించడానికి భద్రతా వలయాలను అనేక పొరలుగా ఏర్పాటు చేస్తారు.
- ప్రతి భద్రతా వలయం ఒక ముప్పును గుర్తించడం లేదా అడ్డుకోవడం కోసం ఉంటుంది.
- అధ్యక్షుడికి అత్యంత సమీపంగా ఉండే బృందం చివరి రక్షణ రేఖగా పనిచేస్తుంది.
- అయితే ముప్పు ఆ చివరి స్థాయికి చేరకముందే అడ్డుకోవడం భద్రతా వ్యవస్థ లక్ష్యం.
- భద్రతా బృందంలో జనసమూహంలో సాధారణ వ్యక్తుల్లా కనిపించే అధికారులు కూడా ఉంటారు.
- దాడులు, ఆకస్మిక దాడులు, రోడ్డు పక్కన పేలుడు పరికరాలు వంటి ప్రమాదాలను ముందుగానే పరిగణలోకి తీసుకుంటారు.
- ప్రత్యేకంగా తయారు చేసిన బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వాహనాలను ఉపయోగిస్తారు.
- ప్రమాద సమయంలో వాహనం కదులుతూనే ఉండటం ముఖ్యమని ఆమె చెప్పారు.[1]
## 2. విదేశీ పర్యటనల్లో భద్రత
- అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడు భారతదేశం లేదా చైనా వంటి దేశాలకు వెళ్లేటప్పుడు, అక్కడి భద్రతా వ్యవస్థపై కొంతవరకు నమ్మకం ఉంచాల్సి ఉంటుంది.
- పర్యటనకు చాలా వారాలు లేదా నెల ముందుగానే అమెరికా అధికారులు వెళ్లి స్థానిక పోలీసులు, సైన్యం, భద్రతా సంస్థలతో సమన్వయం చేస్తారు.
- అవసరమైతే అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడి వాహనాలను కూడా విదేశాలకు విమానంలో తరలిస్తారు.
- ప్రతి దేశానికి భద్రతా శిక్షణ, సామర్థ్యం, విధానాలు వేర్వేరుగా ఉంటాయని ఆమె చెప్పారు.
- స్థానిక ప్రభుత్వం స్నేహపూర్వకంగా ఉన్నప్పటికీ, అమెరికా భద్రతా బృందాల అన్ని సూచనలను అంగీకరించకపోవచ్చు.[1]
## 3. సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్లో చేరడం
- సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్లో చేరడానికి దరఖాస్తు ప్రక్రియ అధికారిక వెబ్సైట్ ద్వారా ప్రారంభమవుతుంది.
- రెజ్యూమే, దరఖాస్తు ఫారాలు, రాత పరీక్షలు, ఇంటర్వ్యూలు, ప్యానెల్ చర్చలు, నేపథ్య పరిశీలన, పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్ష వంటి అనేక దశలు ఉంటాయి.
- మొత్తం ప్రక్రియకు ఒక సంవత్సరం వరకు పట్టవచ్చు.
- ఉద్యోగం పొందే ముందు అభ్యర్థి నిజాయితీ, వ్యక్తిత్వం, నైతిక విలువలు, విశ్వసనీయతలను పరిశీలిస్తారు.
- శిక్షణలో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధించినా, కొంతకాలం ప్రొబేషన్లో ఉంచుతారు.
- శిక్షణ సమయంలో కూడా అభ్యర్థిని తొలగించే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది.[1]
## 4. పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్ష
- పాలిగ్రాఫ్ను నేర విచారణల్లో మాత్రమే కాకుండా, కొన్ని ప్రభుత్వ ఉద్యోగాల నియామక ప్రక్రియలో కూడా ఉపయోగిస్తారు.
- సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ అధికారులకు రహస్య సమాచారం, ఆయుధాలు, వైట్ హౌస్ మరియు ఉన్నత స్థాయి వ్యక్తులకు ప్రాప్యత ఉంటుంది.
- సంస్థలోకి ఉగ్రవాది, గూఢచారి లేదా నమ్మదగని వ్యక్తి ప్రవేశించకుండా నేపథ్య పరిశీలన చేస్తారు.
- “నేను ఎప్పుడూ అరెస్టు కాలేదు” అనడం, “నేను ఎప్పుడూ నేరం చేయలేదు” అనే అర్థం కాదు. ఈ రెండింటి మధ్య తేడాను పరిశీలిస్తారు.
- పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్షలో కొన్నిసార్లు ఉద్యోగ ఇంటర్వ్యూ నేర విచారణగా మారవచ్చని ఆమె చెప్పారు.[1]
## 5. శిక్షణలో కఠినత
సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ శిక్షణలో:
- పోరాట శిక్షణ.
- బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వాహనాల డ్రైవింగ్.
- వ్యూహాత్మక డ్రైవింగ్.
- చట్టాలు, నైతికత, విధానాలపై పరీక్షలు.
- ఆయుధ వినియోగం.
- రాత పరీక్షలు.
- అధిక ఒత్తిడిలో నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకోవడం.
శిక్షణలో వ్యక్తిగత పనితీరు అందరికీ కనిపించేలా స్కోర్లు ప్రకటించేవారని ఆమె చెప్పారు. దాంతో పోటీ, బాధ్యత, మానసిక దృఢత్వం పెరుగుతాయి.
## 6. సిగ్గు, అపరాధ భావన, బాధ్యత
ఈవీ అభిప్రాయం ప్రకారం, సిగ్గు మరియు అపరాధ భావన ఎప్పుడూ చెడ్డవి కావు.
- తప్పు చేసినప్పుడు అపరాధ భావన కలగడం మన ప్రవర్తనను సరిదిద్దడానికి సహాయపడవచ్చు.
- సిగ్గు భవిష్యత్తులో అదే తప్పును పునరావృతం చేయకుండా నిరోధించవచ్చు.
- అయితే ఇది ఆరోగ్యకరమైన స్థాయిలో ఉండాలి; అధికమైన సిగ్గు మానసిక సమస్యలకు దారితీయవచ్చు.
- ఇతరుల బాధను పట్టించుకోని వ్యక్తుల్లో అపరాధ భావన లేదా సిగ్గు చాలా తక్కువగా ఉండవచ్చని ఆమె చెప్పారు.[1]
## 7. NYPD అనుభవం
- ఈవీ మొదట న్యూయార్క్ పోలీస్ డిపార్ట్మెంట్లో పనిచేశారు.
- శిక్షణ సమయంలో అధికారులు కఠినమైన ఒత్తిడి, శారీరక శ్రమ, శిక్షలు, చల్లని వాతావరణం, నిరంతర అరుపులు ఎదుర్కొంటారని చెప్పారు.
- ఒక్కరి చిన్న తప్పుకు మొత్తం బృందానికే పుష్-అప్స్ చేయించేవారు.
- శారీరక నొప్పిని, మానసిక ఒత్తిడిని తట్టుకునే సామర్థ్యం పోలీసు శిక్షణలో చాలా ముఖ్యమని ఆమె వివరించారు.[1]
## 8. నేరాలు తగ్గించడానికి రెండు అంశాలు
నేరాలను నిరోధించడంలో రెండు విషయాలు కీలకమని ఈవీ చెప్పారు:
1. నేరం చేస్తే తప్పకుండా పట్టుబడతాననే నమ్మకం.
2. నేరం చేస్తే శిక్ష తప్పదనే భయం.
ఈ రెండింటిలో ఏదైనా ఒకటి బలహీనపడితే, నేరాలకు పాల్పడే అవకాశం పెరుగుతుంది.
## 9. పోలీసులపై ప్రజల నమ్మకం
- పోలీసులపై ప్రజల్లో నమ్మకం తగ్గినప్పుడు, చట్ట అమలు మరింత కష్టమవుతుంది.
- పోలీసులపై విమర్శలు మాత్రమే వార్తల్లో కనిపిస్తే, ప్రజలకు పోలీసులపై ఉన్న మొత్తం దృక్కోణం ప్రతికూలంగా మారవచ్చు.
- పోలీసు వ్యవస్థ ప్రారంభమైన ఉద్దేశం డబ్బున్నవారికే కాకుండా, భద్రత కొనలేని సాధారణ ప్రజలకు కూడా న్యాయం మరియు రక్షణ అందించడం అని ఆమె వివరించారు.[1]
## 10. దేశాన్ని లోపల నుంచి బలహీనపరచడం
వీడియోలో ఒక భావన ప్రస్తావించారు: ఒక దేశాన్ని బయట నుంచి దాడి చేయడం కంటే, లోపల విభజించడం ద్వారా బలహీనపరచడం సులభం.
- ప్రజల మధ్య విభేదాలు పెంచడం.
- తప్పుడు సమాచారాన్ని వ్యాప్తి చేయడం.
- ఆన్లైన్ బాట్స్ లేదా నకిలీ ఖాతాలతో గొడవలు సృష్టించడం.
- ప్రజలను పరస్పరం శత్రువులుగా మార్చడం.
- ఒక సంఘటనలోని 1 శాతం భాగాన్ని మాత్రమే చూపించి, మిగతా 99 శాతం వాస్తవాన్ని దాచడం.
వార్తలు లేదా సోషల్ మీడియాలో చూసే సమాచారాన్ని పూర్తిగా నిజమని నమ్మేముందు, “ఇది మొత్తం కథేనా?” అని ప్రశ్నించాలి.
## 11. వ్యక్తుల నుంచి సమాచారాన్ని పొందడం
ఈవీ విచారణలో ఉపయోగించే ముఖ్యమైన మానసిక వ్యూహాలను వివరించారు. వాటిలో మొదటిది **స్వతంత్ర నిర్ణయ భావన** లేదా autonomy.
ఆమె అరెస్టులో లేని వ్యక్తితో మాట్లాడేటప్పుడు:
- “మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా వెళ్లిపోవచ్చు” అని చెప్పేవారు.
- తలుపు చూపించేవారు.
- కుర్చీ తలుపును అడ్డుకోకుండా చూసేవారు.
- వ్యక్తికి మాట్లాడాలా, వెళ్లిపోవాలా అనే ఎంపిక ఉందని తెలియజేసేవారు.
ఇలా చేయడం వల్ల ఎదుటివారికి నియంత్రణ తమ చేతుల్లో ఉందనే భావన కలుగుతుంది. బలవంతం లేదా బెదిరింపు కంటే, ఎంపిక ఇచ్చినప్పుడు వ్యక్తి మరింత సౌకర్యంగా మాట్లాడే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది.
అయితే చట్టబద్ధమైన విచారణలో వ్యక్తి హక్కులు, మిరాండా హక్కులు, సమ్మతి, న్యాయపరమైన పరిమితులను గౌరవించాలి.[1]
## 12. Reciprocity — పరస్పర ప్రతిఫలం
ఇంకో ప్రభావ వ్యూహం **reciprocity**, అంటే పరస్పర ప్రతిఫలం.
ఉదాహరణకు:
- ఎవరో మీ కోసం తలుపు తెరిచి పట్టుకుంటే, మీరు తర్వాతి తలుపును వారి కోసం పట్టుకుంటారు.
- ఒకరు మీకు సహాయం చేస్తే, మీరు కూడా వారికి సహాయం చేయాలనే భావన కలుగుతుంది.
- కొందరు వ్యక్తులు దీన్ని నిజమైన మంచితనంగా చేస్తారు.
- మరికొందరు భవిష్యత్తులో ఏదైనా పొందాలనే ఉద్దేశంతో సహాయం చేస్తారు.
కాబట్టి ఎవరైనా పదేపదే ఉపకారం చేస్తున్నప్పుడు, అది స్వచ్ఛమైన సహాయమా లేదా భవిష్యత్తులో ప్రతిఫలం ఆశించే ప్రభావ వ్యూహమా అని గమనించాలి.
## 13. Authority — అధికార భావన
మూడవ వ్యూహం **authority**, అంటే ఒక వ్యక్తిని నిపుణుడిగా లేదా అధికారిగా చూడటం.
గదిలో ఒక వ్యక్తి అధికారంగా కనిపించడానికి ప్రభావితం చేసే అంశాలు:
- గదిలోకి ప్రవేశించే తీరు.
- మాట్లాడే విధానం.
- దుస్తులు.
- శరీర భాష.
- స్వరం.
- ఆత్మవిశ్వాసం.
- పరిజ్ఞానం.
పురుషుల స్వరం గురించి చేసిన ఒక అధ్యయనాన్ని ఆమె ప్రస్తావించారు. లోతైన, బలమైన స్వరం ఉన్న రాజకీయ నాయకులను ప్రజలు ఎక్కువ అధికారంగా భావించే అవకాశం ఉందని ఆమె చెప్పారు.
అయితే స్వరం లేదా రూపం మాత్రమే సామర్థ్యాన్ని నిర్ధారించవు. నిజమైన నైపుణ్యం, నిజాయితీ, ఆధారాలు, ప్రవర్తన కూడా పరిశీలించాలి.
## 14. విచారణలో జాగ్రత్త
ఈవీ చెప్పిన ప్రధాన పరిశోధనా పాఠం:
- ముందుగా వ్యక్తిని అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి.
- వెంటనే ఒప్పుకోలు పొందడమే లక్ష్యం కాకూడదు.
- వ్యక్తి ఎలా ఆలోచిస్తాడు, ఎవరితో సంబంధం ఉంది, అతని ఉద్దేశం ఏమిటి అనే విషయాలు తెలుసుకోవాలి.
- ప్రశ్నలు అడిగేటప్పుడు నిందలు, బెదిరింపులు, ముందస్తు తీర్పులు తగ్గించాలి.
- స్వేచ్ఛా సమాధానాలకు అవకాశం ఇవ్వాలి.
వీడియోలో జెఫ్రీ ఎప్స్టీన్ను ప్రశ్నించాల్సి వస్తే, మొదటి కొన్ని రోజులు కేసు గురించి కాకుండా సాధారణ విషయాలపై మాట్లాడి, అతన్ని ఎక్కువగా మాట్లాడేలా చేస్తానని ఈవీ చెప్పారు. ఆమెకు కేవలం ఒప్పుకోలు కాదు—అతనితో ఎవరు సంబంధం కలిగి ఉన్నారు, నెట్వర్క్ ఎలా పనిచేసింది, ఇతరులు ఎవరు పాల్గొన్నారు వంటి సమాచారమే ముఖ్యమని వివరించారు.[1]
## 15. ప్రధాన జీవన పాఠాలు
వీడియో నుంచి తీసుకోవాల్సిన ముఖ్యమైన పాఠాలు:
- అత్యంత బాధ్యత ఉన్న పనులకు నైపుణ్యంతో పాటు నైతికత కూడా అవసరం.
- ఎవరినైనా నియమించుకునే ముందు నేపథ్య పరిశీలన ముఖ్యం.
- మానసిక దృఢత్వం, ఒత్తిడిని తట్టుకునే శక్తి పెంచుకోవాలి.
- ఏ సమాచారాన్నైనా మొత్తం సందర్భంతో పరిశీలించాలి.
- భయం, కోపం, విభజనను ఉపయోగించి ప్రజలను ప్రభావితం చేయవచ్చు.
- ఎదుటివారికి ఎంపిక ఇచ్చినప్పుడు సంభాషణ సులభమవుతుంది.
- ఉపకారం వెనుక ఉన్న ఉద్దేశాన్ని గుర్తించాలి.
- అధికారంగా కనిపించడం, నిజంగా నమ్మదగినవాడిగా ఉండటం రెండూ వేర్వేరు విషయాలు.
- విచారణలో తొందరపాటు కంటే ఓపిక, వినడం, ప్రశ్నించే విధానం ముఖ్యం.
Citations:
[1] Former Secret Service Agent: How Presidents Are Protected | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYgRL456ps
Translate to telugu for first 1 hour
## మొదటి గంట తెలుగు అనువాదం
కిందిది వీడియోలోని **00:00 నుంచి 01:00:00 వరకు** ఉన్న భాగానికి భావానువాదం. వీడియో శీర్షిక: **“మాజీ సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఏజెంట్: అధ్యక్షులను ఎలా రక్షిస్తారు?”** అతిథి ఈవీ పౌంపౌరస్.[1]
### [00:00] అధ్యక్ష భద్రత
ప్రపంచంలోనే అత్యంత శక్తివంతమైన వ్యక్తిగా భావించే అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడిని రక్షించే బాధ్యత మీపై ఉంటే, ఆ భద్రతను ఎలా ఏర్పాటు చేస్తారు?
అధ్యక్షుడి చుట్టూ భద్రతా వలయాలను అనేక పొరలుగా ఏర్పాటు చేస్తారు. ప్రతి వలయం ఒక ముప్పును నిరోధించడానికి లేదా అడ్డుకోవడానికి ఉపయోగపడుతుంది.
అధ్యక్షుడికి అత్యంత సమీపంగా ఉండే అధికారులు చివరి రక్షణ రేఖగా ఉంటారు. వారు నిజంగా శరీర రక్షకుల్లా పనిచేస్తారు. అయితే ముప్పు ఆ చివరి స్థాయికి చేరకముందే అడ్డుకోవాలి.
### [00:26] ఈవీ పరిచయం
నా పేరు ఈవీ పౌంపౌరస్. నేను మాజీ అమెరికా సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ స్పెషల్ ఏజెంట్ను. నా కెరీర్లో అనేక అమెరికా అధ్యక్షులను రక్షించాను.
తర్వాత NBCలో చట్ట అమలు విశ్లేషకురాలిగా పనిచేశాను. అలాగే రచయితగా, విచారణ నిపుణురాలిగా, వ్యక్తుల ప్రవర్తనను అర్థం చేసుకునే నిపుణురాలిగా పనిచేశాను.
భద్రతా బృందాల్లో కొంతమంది అధికారులు సాధారణ ప్రజల్లా దుస్తులు ధరించి జనసమూహంలో కలిసిపోతారు.
మరో ముఖ్యమైన ప్రమాదం ఆకస్మిక దాడి. ఉదాహరణకు, నేను వాహనం నడుపుతున్నప్పుడు రోడ్డుపై ఎవరో పేలుడు పరికరం పెట్టితే? అలాంటి పరిస్థితుల్లో వాహనం ఎప్పుడూ కదులుతూ ఉండేలా చూడాలి.
బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ మరియు అత్యంత వ్యూహాత్మక వాహనాలను ఉపయోగిస్తారు.
### [00:57] విదేశాల్లో అధ్యక్ష భద్రత
అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడు భారత్ లేదా చైనా వంటి దేశాలకు వెళ్లి ప్రసంగం చేయాల్సి వస్తే, భద్రత మరింత క్లిష్టంగా మారుతుంది. ఎందుకంటే ఆ దేశ భద్రతా వ్యవస్థపై కొంతవరకు నమ్మకం ఉంచాల్సి ఉంటుంది.
అధ్యక్షుడు ముంబైకి వెళ్లాలి అనుకుందాం. సుమారు ఒక నెల ముందుగానే అమెరికా అధికారులు అక్కడికి వెళ్లి, ముంబై పోలీసులతో, భారత సైన్యంతో, ఇతర స్థానిక అధికారులతో కలిసి పని చేస్తారు.
అమెరికాలో భద్రతా శిక్షణ, విధానాలు చాలా భిన్నంగా ఉంటాయి. కొన్ని దేశాలు స్నేహపూర్వకంగా ఉన్నప్పటికీ, అత్యున్నత స్థాయి వ్యక్తిని రక్షించడానికి అవసరమైన సామర్థ్యం వాటికి ఉండకపోవచ్చు.
అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడి విదేశీ పర్యటనల ఫోటోలు చూస్తే, ఆయన ఎప్పుడూ ప్రత్యేక వాహనాల్లోనే కనిపిస్తారు. ఆ వాహనాలను అవసరమైతే విమానంలోనే విదేశాలకు తరలిస్తారు.
### [01:41] నేరస్థులను ఎలా ప్రశ్నించాలి?
ప్రపంచంలోని కొంతమంది అత్యంత ప్రభావవంతమైన వ్యక్తులను ప్రశ్నించి సమాచారాన్ని పొందాల్సి వస్తే ఎలా వ్యవహరిస్తారు?
ఉదాహరణకు జెఫ్రీ ఎప్స్టీన్ను తీసుకుందాం. అతను చాలా ధనవంతుడు, ఎంతోమంది ప్రముఖులతో పరిచయం ఉన్న వ్యక్తి. అధ్యక్షులతో కూడా అతనికి సంబంధాలు ఉన్నాయని చెప్పబడింది.
అతనితో ఒక్కరోజులో సమాచారాన్ని రాబట్టలేం. అతనితో అనేక రోజులు గడపాల్సి ఉంటుంది.
మొదటి కొన్ని రోజుల్లో నేను కేసు గురించి అసలు మాట్లాడను. బదులుగా:
- మీరు ఎక్కడ పెరిగారు?
- మీ బాల్యం ఎలా ఉండేది?
- ప్రస్తుతం మీకు ఎలా అనిపిస్తోంది?
- మీకు ఏదైనా తినడానికి కావాలా?
అంటూ సాధారణ ప్రశ్నలు అడుగుతాను.
నా లక్ష్యం అతను ఎక్కువగా మాట్లాడేలా చేయడం.
### [02:09] ఒప్పుకోలు మాత్రమే లక్ష్యం కాదు
ఎప్స్టీన్ నుంచి కేవలం ఒప్పుకోలు పొందడం నా ప్రధాన లక్ష్యం కాదు. అతన్ని దోషిగా నిర్ధారించడానికి ఇప్పటికే తగిన సమాచారం ఉండవచ్చు.
నాకు తెలుసుకోవాల్సింది:
- అతనితో ఎవరు కలిసి పనిచేశారు?
- అతని ద్వీపానికి ఎవరు వెళ్లారు?
- అతను అమ్మాయిలను ఎలా సంప్రదించాడు?
- ఆ వ్యవస్థను ఎలా నిర్వహించాడు?
- మరెవరు ఇందులో పాల్గొన్నారు?
- ఈ నెట్వర్క్ ఎంత పెద్దది?
విచారణలో అత్యంత విలువైన సమాచారం తరచుగా నేరం జరిగిన విధానం, దాని వెనుక ఉన్న వ్యక్తులు, నెట్వర్క్ గురించి ఉంటుంది.
### [02:24] ఒసామా బిన్ లాడెన్ను ప్రశ్నించడం
**రాజ్:** ఒసామా బిన్ లాడెన్ వంటి వ్యక్తిని మీరు ప్రశ్నించాల్సి వస్తే ఎలా ప్రారంభించేవారు?
**ఈవీ:** అది చాలా ప్రత్యేకమైన పరిస్థితి అవుతుంది. అలాంటి వ్యక్తి ఆలోచనా విధానం, లక్ష్యాలు, నెట్వర్క్, ప్రభావం గురించి అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి. నేరం గురించి మాత్రమే కాకుండా, అతని ఆలోచనా ప్రపంచం గురించి కూడా తెలుసుకోవాలి.
### [02:29] సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఏజెంట్గా ఎలా మారాలి?
**రాజ్:** సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఏజెంట్గా ఎలా మారవచ్చు? శిక్షణలో అత్యంత కఠినమైన భాగం ఏమిటి?
**ఈవీ:** ఈ ఉద్యోగానికి ఎంపిక ప్రక్రియ చాలా కఠినంగా ఉంటుంది. అభ్యర్థి చట్టం, భద్రత, నైతికత, తుపాకీ వినియోగం, వాహన నడపడం, శారీరక సామర్థ్యం, మానసిక స్థిరత్వం వంటి అనేక అంశాల్లో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధించాలి.
ఒకప్పుడు నేను మానవ అక్రమ రవాణాకు గురైన వ్యక్తిలా అండర్కవర్గా నటించాను. వేరే దేశానికి చెందిన మహిళగా నన్ను నేను చూపించాల్సి వచ్చింది. ఇలాంటి పనులకు నటన, పరిశీలన, భాష, ప్రవర్తన నియంత్రణ అవసరం.
### [02:52] కార్యక్రమానికి మద్దతు
**హోస్ట్:** మా ఛానల్ను సబ్స్క్రైబ్ చేయండి. ఎక్కువ మంది సబ్స్క్రైబ్ చేస్తే, మరింత విలువైన అతిథులను తీసుకురాగలుగుతాం.
ఈ కార్యక్రమం పూర్తి ఆడియో అనుభవం Spotifyలో కూడా అందుబాటులో ఉంది.
### [03:24] ఈవీ కెరీర్ ప్రారంభం
**రాజ్:** మొదటిసారి ఈ కార్యక్రమాన్ని చూస్తున్న వారికి మీ గురించి చెప్పండి. మీరు ఏం చేశారు? ఇప్పుడు ఏం చేస్తున్నారు?
**ఈవీ:** నేను చిన్న వయస్సులోనే చట్ట అమలు రంగంలోకి వచ్చాను. మొదట న్యూయార్క్ పోలీస్ డిపార్ట్మెంట్—NYPDలో పనిచేశాను.
కొద్దికాలం తర్వాత అమెరికా సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్లో స్పెషల్ ఏజెంట్ మరియు క్రిమినల్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్గా చేరాను.
సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్కు రెండు ప్రధాన బాధ్యతలు ఉన్నాయి:
1. నేర పరిశోధన.
2. ఉన్నత స్థాయి వ్యక్తుల రక్షణ.
### [04:05] సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ బాధ్యతలు
అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడిని, మాజీ అధ్యక్షులను, వారి కుటుంబాలను రక్షిస్తారు. అలాగే విదేశీ దేశాల నాయకులు అమెరికాకు వచ్చినప్పుడు కూడా రక్షణ కల్పిస్తారు.
భారతదేశానికి చెందిన ఒక నాయకుడు అమెరికాకు వచ్చినా, అతనికి భద్రత కల్పిస్తారు. అమెరికా నేలపై ఎవరైనా విదేశీ నాయకుడు హత్యకు గురైతే అది దేశానికి తీవ్రమైన అవమానం మరియు భద్రతా వైఫల్యం అవుతుంది.
నా ఉద్యోగంలో ఒక వారంలోనే అనేక రకాల పనులు చేయాల్సి వచ్చేది:
- సెర్చ్ వారెంట్ అమలు.
- అరెస్ట్ వారెంట్ అమలు.
- అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్.
- అధ్యక్ష భద్రతా బాధ్యత.
- విదేశీ పర్యటన భద్రత.
### [04:52] పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్ష
నేను పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్షలు కూడా నిర్వహించాను. అమెరికాలో పాలిగ్రాఫ్ను:
- నేర విచారణల్లో.
- కొన్ని ప్రభుత్వ ఉద్యోగాల నియామకంలో.
- సున్నితమైన భద్రతా ఉద్యోగాల అభ్యర్థుల పరిశీలనలో ఉపయోగిస్తారు.
ఎవరైనా సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఏజెంట్ కావాలంటే, అతనికి రహస్య సమాచారానికి ప్రాప్యత ఉంటుంది. వైట్ హౌస్లో పనిచేయాల్సి రావచ్చు. ఆయుధం ఇస్తారు. ప్రపంచంలోని అత్యంత శక్తివంతమైన వ్యక్తుల పక్కన నిలబడాలి.
అందువల్ల ఆ వ్యక్తి సంస్థలోకి చొరబడే ఉద్దేశం కలిగి ఉన్నాడా, ఉగ్రవాద సంబంధాలు ఉన్నాయా, గూఢచారి కాదా వంటి విషయాలను పరిశీలించాలి.
### [05:46] వ్యక్తిత్వం మరియు నిజాయితీ
ఈ ఉద్యోగానికి నైపుణ్యం మాత్రమే సరిపోదు. బలమైన నైతిక విలువలు, నిజాయితీ, మంచి వ్యక్తిత్వం అవసరం.
ఎవరైనా యువకుడిగా నేరాలు చేసి ఉండి, ఎప్పుడూ పట్టుబడకపోవచ్చు. దరఖాస్తులో “నేను ఎప్పుడూ అరెస్టు కాలేదు” అని చెప్పవచ్చు.
కానీ “మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా నేరం చేశారా?” అనే ప్రశ్నకు అది సమాధానం కాదు. అరెస్టు కాలేదనే విషయం నేరం చేయలేదని అర్థం కాదు.
ఇంత అధికారం, రహస్య సమాచారం, ఆయుధాలు ఉన్న ఉద్యోగాల్లో ఎవరిని నియమిస్తున్నామో చాలా జాగ్రత్తగా పరిశీలించాలి.
### [06:34] పాలిగ్రాఫ్లో బయటపడిన విషయం
కొన్నిసార్లు ఉద్యోగ ఇంటర్వ్యూ నేర విచారణగా మారుతుంది.
ఒకసారి ఉద్యోగానికి దరఖాస్తు చేసిన వ్యక్తి కంప్యూటర్లో పిల్లలకు సంబంధించిన అశ్లీల వీడియోలు ఉన్న విషయం బయటపడింది. పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్ష లేకపోతే అది బయటపడకపోయేది.
ఇలాంటి ఉద్యోగాలకు FBI, DEA, CIA వంటి సంస్థల్లో కూడా అనేక దశల ఎంపిక ప్రక్రియ ఉంటుంది.
### [07:00] ఎంపిక ప్రక్రియ
ఎంపిక ప్రక్రియలో సాధారణంగా:
- రెజ్యూమే లేదా దరఖాస్తు ఫారం.
- అదనపు పత్రాలు.
- వ్యక్తిగత ఇంటర్వ్యూ.
- పలువురు ఏజెంట్లతో ప్యానెల్ ఇంటర్వ్యూ.
- కఠినమైన పరిస్థితులపై ప్రశ్నలు.
- పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్ష.
- రాత పరీక్షలు.
- నేపథ్య పరిశీలన.
ప్రతి దశలో కొంతమంది అభ్యర్థులు తొలగించబడతారు. మొత్తం ప్రక్రియకు ఒక సంవత్సరం వరకు పట్టవచ్చు.
సంస్థలో ఒక తప్పు వ్యక్తిని నియమిస్తే, తర్వాత అతన్ని తొలగించడం కష్టమవుతుంది. సరిపోని లేదా వ్యవస్థను దెబ్బతీసే వ్యక్తి మొత్తం బృందాన్ని ప్రభావితం చేయవచ్చు.
### [08:36] సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్కు ఎలా దరఖాస్తు చేయాలి?
ఈ ఉద్యోగాలకు సాధారణంగా అధికారిక వెబ్సైట్ ద్వారా దరఖాస్తు చేయాలి. సంస్థ నియామకాలు చేస్తున్నదా లేదా అనే సమాచారం వెబ్సైట్లో ఉంటుంది.
కొన్నిసార్లు విశ్వవిద్యాలయాల్లో ఉద్యోగ మేళాలు నిర్వహిస్తారు. కానీ సినిమాల్లో చూపినట్టు అధికారులు ఇంటికి వచ్చి, “మీరు ప్రత్యేకంగా కనిపిస్తున్నారు, మా సంస్థలో చేరండి” అని సాధారణంగా చెప్పరు.
వేలాది మంది దరఖాస్తు చేస్తారు. నేపథ్య పరిశీలనలో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధించగల, అధిక స్థాయి నైతికత కలిగిన వ్యక్తులను కనుగొనడం కష్టం.
### [09:55] గత అనుభవం ప్రాధాన్యం
నాకు NYPDలో ముందుగా పనిచేసిన అనుభవం ఉండేది. దాంతో నేను చట్ట అమలు రంగంపై ఆసక్తి కలిగిన వ్యక్తినని చూపించగలిగాను.
కొంతమందికి సైనిక అనుభవం ఉంటుంది. అది కూడా ఉపయోగపడుతుంది. “నేను నా దేశానికి సేవ చేశాను” అనే భావన ముఖ్యమైనది.
అభ్యర్థులను నేను అడిగే ప్రశ్న: “మీరు సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఏజెంట్ ఎందుకు కావాలనుకుంటున్నారు?”
సాధారణంగా రెండు రకాల సమాధానాలు వస్తాయి:
- “నా కంటే గొప్పదైన లక్ష్యానికి సేవ చేయాలనుకుంటున్నాను.”
- “నేను ఈ పని చేయగలనో లేదో చూడాలనుకుంటున్నాను.”
మొదటి సమాధానం చెప్పినవారు సాధారణంగా మెరుగ్గా రాణిస్తారు. ఎందుకంటే వారు తమ కోసం మాత్రమే కాకుండా, తమకంటే పెద్ద లక్ష్యం కోసం పనిచేస్తారు.
### [11:25] కష్టాలను తట్టుకునే శక్తి
ఈ ఉద్యోగం కఠినమైనది. శిక్షణలో శారీరక, మానసిక ఒత్తిడి ఉంటుంది.
ఉద్యోగం కేవలం స్వీయ గౌరవం లేదా వ్యక్తిగత సాహసం కోసం ఎంచుకుంటే, కష్టాలు వచ్చినప్పుడు నిలబడటం కష్టమవుతుంది.
శిక్షణ పూర్తి చేయడానికి సహనం, ఓర్పు, నొప్పిని తట్టుకునే శక్తి అవసరం.
### [11:39] రాత పరీక్ష మరియు నియామక దశలు
దరఖాస్తు చేసిన తర్వాత సంస్థ మిమ్మల్ని ఎంపిక చేస్తుందనే హామీ ఉండదు. కొన్నిసార్లు దరఖాస్తు పంపిన తర్వాత ఎలాంటి సమాచారం రాకపోవచ్చు.
ఎంపికైతే ముందుగా పత్రాలు పూర్తి చేయాలి. తర్వాత రాత పరీక్ష ఉంటుంది. ఆ పరీక్ష చాలా కఠినంగా ఉంటుంది.
రాత పరీక్షలో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధిస్తే తదుపరి దశకు పిలుస్తారు. అన్ని దశల్లో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధించిన తర్వాత “కండిషనల్ ఆఫర్ ఆఫ్ ఎంప్లాయ్మెంట్” ఇస్తారు.
అది ఉద్యోగం ఖరారైందని అర్థం కాదు. శిక్షణకు వెళ్లే అవకాశం మాత్రమే. శిక్షణలో ఉత్తీర్ణత సాధిస్తేనే ఉద్యోగం ఇస్తారు.
### [12:18] ప్రొబేషన్
శిక్షణ పూర్తి చేసి ఉద్యోగం వచ్చినా, కొంతకాలం ప్రొబేషన్లో ఉంచుతారు. ఆ సమయంలో సంస్థ మిమ్మల్ని తొలగించవచ్చు.
ఎవరైనా వ్యక్తి వాస్తవంగా పనిలో ఎలా పనిచేస్తాడో నిరంతరం కలిసి పనిచేసిన తర్వాతే పూర్తిగా తెలుస్తుంది. అందుకే ప్రొబేషన్ కాలం సంస్థకు చాలా ముఖ్యమైనది.
### [13:02] శిక్షణలోని కఠిన అంశాలు
శిక్షణలో:
- చేతిపోరాటం.
- వ్యూహాత్మక డ్రైవింగ్.
- బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వాహనాల నడపడం.
- రాత పరీక్షలు.
- చట్టాలు.
- నైతికత.
- విధానాలు.
- ఆయుధ వినియోగం.
బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వాహనాలు టీవీలో ఆకర్షణీయంగా కనిపిస్తాయి. కానీ వాస్తవంలో అవి చాలా బరువుగా ఉంటాయి. వేగంగా మలుపులు తిప్పడం, ఆపడం, ప్రమాద సమయంలో నియంత్రించడం చాలా కష్టం.
### [14:25] పనితీరు అందరికీ కనిపిస్తుంది
శిక్షణలో మీ పనితీరుకు వ్యక్తిగత గోప్యత ఉండదు.
మీరు ఉత్తీర్ణులయ్యారా లేదా విఫలమయ్యారా అందరికీ తెలుస్తుంది. షూటింగ్ రేంజ్లో మీ స్కోర్లను పెద్ద అక్షరాలతో రాస్తారు.
“ఈవీ, నీ స్కోర్ ఇది, మెరుగుపరుచుకోవాలి” అని పక్కకు తీసుకెళ్లి చెప్పరు. అందరూ చూడగలిగేలా మీ స్కోర్ను ప్రదర్శిస్తారు.
**రాజ్:** ఎందుకు?
**ఈవీ:** పోటీ వాతావరణం కోసం. ఇతరులు మీ బలహీనతలను చూస్తే మీరు తట్టుకోలేకపోతే, ఈ ఉద్యోగం చేయడం కష్టం.
ఇది మిమ్మల్ని బాధ్యతాయుతంగా ఉంచుతుంది. మీ ప్రతిష్ఠ గురించి మీరు శ్రద్ధ చూపితే, మరింత కష్టపడి మెరుగైన పనితీరు కనబరుస్తారు.
### [16:13] సిగ్గు మరియు అపరాధ భావన
సిగ్గు ఎప్పుడూ చెడ్డది కాదు. కొన్నిసార్లు అది మనల్ని జాగ్రత్తగా ఉంచుతుంది. మెరుగైన నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకోవడానికి సహాయపడుతుంది.
అపరాధ భావన కూడా తన పాత్రను పోషిస్తుంది. మీరు తప్పు చేశానని బాధపడితే, తదుపరి సారి అదే తప్పు చేయకుండా ఉండవచ్చు.
అపరాధ భావనను పూర్తిగా తొలగిస్తే, తప్పు చేసినా మనపై ఎలాంటి ప్రభావం ఉండకపోవచ్చు.
తీవ్రమైన నేరాలు చేసే కొందరిలో సిగ్గు, అపరాధ భావన, ఇతరుల బాధపై అనుభూతి చాలా తక్కువగా ఉండవచ్చు.
మనుషులుగా మనకు సిగ్గు, అపరాధ భావన, ఇబ్బంది వంటి భావాలు కలుగుతాయి. ఇవి మనల్ని స్థిరంగా ఉంచి, మెరుగైన నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకోవడానికి సహాయపడతాయి.
### [17:46] శిక్షణలో ఆశ్చర్యకరమైన అంశాలు
శిక్షణలో నాకు ఆశ్చర్యం కలిగించిన వాటిలో బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ కార్లను నడపడం ఒకటి.
ఇవి చాలా బరువుగా ఉంటాయి. వేగంగా నడిపేటప్పుడు వాటిని నియంత్రించడం చాలా కష్టం.
సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఉద్యోగంలో ప్రతి ఒక్కరూ అనేక పనులు నేర్చుకోవాలి. మీరు వాహనం నడపాలి, రక్షణలో ఉన్న వ్యక్తులను తరలించాలి, వాహనాల సామర్థ్యం తెలుసుకోవాలి.
### [18:36] పారామిలిటరీ శిక్షణ
నాకు సైనిక నేపథ్యం లేదు. NYPDలో చేరిన తర్వాత అది ఎంతవరకు సైనిక పద్ధతులను పోలి ఉందో అర్థమైంది.
దీనిని పారామిలిటరీ శిక్షణ అంటారు. అంటే శిక్షణ విధానం సైనిక శైలిని అనుసరిస్తుంది.
ఇది కాలేజీలా ఉంటుందని అనుకున్నాను. కానీ అది కాలేజీలా అసలు ఉండదు. ఎవ్వరూ మీకు ప్రత్యేకంగా సహాయం చేయడానికి ఉండరు.
NYPDలో ఒక తరగతిలో సుమారు 1,500 మంది క్యాడెట్లు ఉండవచ్చు. అక్కడ మీరు ప్రత్యేకమైన వ్యక్తి కాదు. మీరు మరో అభ్యర్థి మాత్రమే.
త్వరగా నేర్చుకోవాల్సిన విషయం ఏమిటంటే—మీరు కష్టాలను తట్టుకుని ముందుకు సాగాలి, లేకపోతే వెనుకబడిపోతారు.
### [19:32] NYPD శిక్షణ
మొదటి నెలల్లో బలహీనులను తొలగించడమే శిక్షణలో ఒక భాగంలా ఉంటుంది.
అధికారులు మీపై అరుస్తారు. కారణం లేకపోయినా పుష్-అప్స్ చేయిస్తారు.
ఒకరి ఫోన్ మోగినా మొత్తం బృందాన్ని శిక్షిస్తారు.
చలికాలంలో అందరినీ బయట నిలబెడతారు. కదలకుండా, మాట్లాడకుండా ఉండాలి. ఒక చిన్న తప్పు జరిగినా అందరికీ శిక్ష పడుతుంది.
### [20:23] నొప్పిని తట్టుకునే శక్తి
ఇలాంటి శిక్షణకు అత్యంత అవసరమైన లక్షణం నొప్పిని తట్టుకునే సామర్థ్యం.
అది కేవలం శారీరక నొప్పి కాదు. మానసిక, భావోద్వేగ నొప్పిని కూడా తట్టుకోవాలి.
ఈ సామర్థ్యం ఉంటే, జీవితంలో అనేక కష్టాలను ఎదుర్కోగలుగుతారు.
### [20:34] న్యూయార్క్లో నేరాలు
**రాజ్:** అమెరికా ప్రపంచంలో అత్యంత శక్తివంతమైన దేశం. న్యూయార్క్ దాని ప్రధాన నగరం. అయినప్పటికీ న్యూయార్క్లో భద్రత తగ్గుతోందని అనిపిస్తోంది. NYPD నగరాన్ని సురక్షితంగా ఉంచలేకపోవడానికి కారణం ఏమిటి?
**ఈవీ:** నేను అమెరికాలో సుమారు పది సంవత్సరాలు క్రిమినల్ జస్టిస్ మరియు క్రిమినాలజీ బోధించాను.
నేరాలను నిరోధించడంలో రెండు ప్రధాన అంశాలు ఉన్నాయి:
1. మీరు తప్పకుండా పట్టుబడతారని నేరస్థుడికి నమ్మకం ఉండాలి.
2. నేరం చేసిన తర్వాత శిక్ష తప్పదని అతనికి తెలుసుండాలి.
ఈ రెండింటిలో ఏదైనా ఒకటి బలహీనపడితే, నేరం చేసే అవకాశం పెరుగుతుంది.
నేరాలు చేసే వ్యక్తులు తరచుగా చిన్న నెట్వర్క్ లేదా గుంపుగా ఉంటారు. వారు మళ్లీ మళ్లీ నేరాలకు పాల్పడవచ్చు.
### [21:40] పోలీసులపై ప్రజల అభిప్రాయం
పోలీసులపై ప్రజల్లో ప్రతికూల దృక్కోణం పెరిగింది.
నేను NYPDలో చేరినప్పుడు అది సెప్టెంబర్ 11 దాడులకు ముందు కాలం. అప్పటికీ ప్రజలు పోలీసులను ఇష్టపడేవారు కాదు.
మేము న్యూయార్క్లోని రహదారి పక్కన పరుగెత్తుతున్నప్పుడు, ప్రజలు మమ్మల్ని చూసి తిట్టేవారు, ఉమ్మేవారు, మధ్యవేలు చూపేవారు.
నేను చిన్నవాణ్ని కాబట్టి, “మమ్మల్ని ఎందుకు ఇంతగా ద్వేషిస్తున్నారు? నేను ప్రజలకు సహాయం చేయడానికి పోలీసు అవుతున్నాను కదా” అని అనుకునేదాన్ని.
### [22:14] పోలీసు వ్యవస్థ ఉద్దేశం
లండన్లో మెట్రోపాలిటన్ పోలీస్ వ్యవస్థ ఏర్పడినప్పుడు, పోలీసుల ప్రధాన ఉద్దేశం డబ్బున్నవారికి మాత్రమే భద్రత కల్పించడం కాదు.
గతంలో డబ్బున్నవారు ప్రైవేట్ పోలీసులను నియమించుకుని న్యాయం పొందగలిగేవారు. కానీ డబ్బులేని సాధారణ ప్రజల పరిస్థితి ఏమిటి?
అందుకే ప్రజా పోలీసు వ్యవస్థ ఏర్పడింది. భద్రత కొనలేని వారికి రక్షణ, న్యాయం, సహాయం అందించడమే దాని లక్ష్యం.
కాబట్టి పోలీసులను విమర్శించేటప్పుడు, పోలీసు వ్యవస్థ ఎందుకు ఏర్పడిందో కూడా గుర్తుంచుకోవాలి.
### [23:22] దేశాన్ని లోపల నుంచి బలహీనపరచడం
మాజీ CIA అధికారితో నేను ఒకసారి, “ఒక దేశాన్ని ఎలా నాశనం చేయవచ్చు?” అని అడిగాను.
అతను ఒక మాజీ KGB సభ్యుడి సమాధానం చెప్పాడు: “ఒక దేశాన్ని లోపల నుంచే చంపాలి.”
ఎలా? విభజన ద్వారా.
ప్రజల మధ్య ఐక్యతను విచ్ఛిన్నం చేయాలి. అందరూ ఒకరితో ఒకరు పోరాడేలా చేయాలి.
ఒక దేశంపై బయట నుంచి దాడి చేస్తే ప్రజలు ఏకమై ప్రతిఘటిస్తారు. కానీ ఒకరినొకరు శత్రువులుగా భావించేలా చేస్తే దేశం లోపల నుంచే బలహీనపడుతుంది.
### [24:31] సమాచారాన్ని పరిశీలించడం
ప్రజలు తాము వినేది, చూస్తున్నది నిజమేనా అని ఆగి ఆలోచించాలి.
“నేను చూస్తున్నది మొత్తం కథేనా? లేక 1 శాతం మాత్రమేనా? మిగిలిన 99 శాతం విషయాలను నేను పట్టించుకోవడం లేదా?” అని ప్రశ్నించాలి.
వార్తల్లో తరచుగా ప్రతికూల విషయాలే ఎక్కువగా కనిపిస్తాయి—పోలీసులు ఏం తప్పు చేశారు, ఏం చేయలేకపోయారు అనే అంశాలు.
మీరు అదే మాత్రమే చూస్తే, మీకు వాస్తవం కూడా అదే అనిపిస్తుంది.
### [25:27] దేశాలను లోపల నుంచి ప్రభావితం చేయడం
**రాజ్:** అమెరికాను లోపల నుంచి బలహీనపరచాలని చూస్తున్న దేశాలు ఏవి?
**ఈవీ:** ఇది కేవలం చైనా లేదా రష్యా విషయం కాదు. ఇది కొత్త రకమైన యుద్ధ విధానం.
బాంబులు వేయకుండా, ఆన్లైన్లో బాట్స్ లేదా నకిలీ ఖాతాలను ఉపయోగించి ప్రజల మధ్య గొడవలు సృష్టించవచ్చు.
కొన్ని దేశాలు ఇంటర్నెట్ను నియంత్రిస్తాయి. ప్రజలు ఏం చూడాలి, ఏం పంచుకోవాలి, ఏం మాట్లాడాలి అనే విషయాలను నియంత్రిస్తాయి. దాని ద్వారా సమాచార కథనాన్ని తమ నియంత్రణలో ఉంచుకోవాలని చూస్తాయి.
### [26:35] ఆన్లైన్ కథనాల నియంత్రణ
ఒక ప్రభుత్వం సమాచారాన్ని నియంత్రించకపోతే, ఇతరులు దేశంలో గందరగోళం సృష్టించవచ్చని భావిస్తుంది.
ఇది మంచిదా చెడ్డదా అనేది వేరే చర్చ. కానీ సమాచారాన్ని నియంత్రించడం వెనుక ఉన్న ఉద్దేశం సాధారణంగా ప్రజలు ఏది నమ్మాలి అనే విషయాన్ని ప్రభావితం చేయడం.
స్వేచ్ఛ ఎక్కువగా ఉన్న దేశాల్లో ప్రతి ఒక్కరికీ ఏదైనా చెప్పే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది. అందుకే మనం వింటున్న ప్రతి మాటకు వెనుక ఉన్న ఉద్దేశాన్ని కూడా అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి.
### [27:44] మీడియా మరియు భద్రత
నేను ఇలాంటి ఇంటర్వ్యూలో మాట్లాడుతున్నప్పుడు కూడా ఎంతో జాగ్రత్తగా ఉంటాను. ఎందుకంటే చెడు ఉద్దేశం ఉన్న వ్యక్తులు ఈ కార్యక్రమాన్ని చూస్తారు. వారు సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్, అమెరికా ప్రభుత్వం గురించి ఏ సమాచారం పొందవచ్చో గమనిస్తారు.
సమాచారాన్ని ప్రజలతో పంచుకోవాలి. అదే సమయంలో, మనం మాట్లాడే విషయాలు ఎలా ఉపయోగించబడవచ్చో కూడా తెలుసుకోవాలి.
### [28:20] వ్యక్తుల నుంచి ఎక్కువ సమాచారం ఎలా పొందాలి?
**రాజ్:** ఒక వ్యక్తి నుంచి అతను చెప్పాలనుకోని సమాచారాన్ని ఎలా తెలుసుకోవచ్చు?
**ఈవీ:** ఒకప్పుడు పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్షకురాలిగా పనిచేసినప్పుడు ఇలాంటి పద్ధతులను ఉపయోగించాను. ప్రజలను ప్రభావితం చేసే కొన్ని వ్యూహాలు ఉన్నాయి.
మొదటిది **స్వతంత్ర నిర్ణయ భావన—Autonomy**.
### [28:48] Autonomy — ఎంపిక ఇచ్చే విధానం
ఆటానమీ అంటే ఎదుటివారికి నియంత్రణ తమ చేతుల్లోనే ఉందని అనిపించడం.
చట్ట అమలు అధికారిగా ఉన్నప్పుడు చాలామంది నాతో మాట్లాడటానికి ఇష్టపడేవారు కాదు. ఎందుకంటే నాతో మాట్లాడితే జైలుకు వెళ్లే ప్రమాదం ఉందని వారు భావించేవారు.
అయితే అమెరికా చట్టం ప్రకారం, అరెస్టులో ఉన్న వ్యక్తికీ మౌనం పాటించే హక్కు ఉంటుంది. అతనికి మిరాండా హక్కులు ఉంటాయి.
మీరు మాట్లాడాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు. మీరు చెప్పే సమాచారం మీకు వ్యతిరేకంగా ఉపయోగించబడవచ్చు.
### [29:28] ఎంపిక ఇవ్వడం
వ్యక్తికి నియంత్రణ ఉన్నట్టు అనిపించడానికి నేను ఇలా చెబుతాను:
- “మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా వెళ్లిపోవచ్చు.”
- “మీకు మాట్లాడాలా వద్దా మీ నిర్ణయం.”
- “ఇదిగో తలుపు ఉంది.”
- “తలుపు తాళం వేయలేదు.”
- “మీరు వెళ్లాలని అనుకుంటే వెళ్లవచ్చు.”
- “నేను మీ దారిని అడ్డుకోవడం లేదు.”
నేను కుర్చీని తలుపుకు అడ్డంగా పెట్టకుండా చూసుకుంటాను. వ్యక్తికి స్వేచ్ఛ ఉందని అనిపించాలి.
“కూర్చోండి. మీరు ఏమీ చెప్పాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు. నేను మాట్లాడుతాను. మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా బయటకు వెళ్లవచ్చు” అని చెబుతాను.
ఇలా చేస్తే వ్యక్తికి నేను అన్ని నియంత్రణలు పట్టుకుని ఉన్నట్టు అనిపించదు.
### [30:17] బలవంతపు ప్రశ్నల సమస్య
“ఇక్కడ కూర్చోండి. మీరు నాతో మాట్లాడాలి. ఇది చెప్పకపోతే జైలుకు వెళ్తారు” అని బెదిరిస్తే, ఎదుటివారి స్వతంత్ర నిర్ణయ భావనను తీసివేసినట్టవుతుంది.
కానీ “మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా బయటకు వెళ్లవచ్చు” అని చెప్పినప్పుడు, వారికి నియంత్రణ తమ చేతుల్లో ఉన్నట్టు అనిపిస్తుంది.
అలా అనిపించినప్పుడు వారు మరింత సౌకర్యంగా ఉంటారు. ఇదే ఆటానమీ ప్రభావ వ్యూహం.
### [31:00] Reciprocity — పరస్పర ప్రతిఫలం
మరో ప్రభావ వ్యూహం **Reciprocity**, అంటే పరస్పర ప్రతిఫలం.
మీరు ఎవరికైనా ఏదైనా చేస్తే, వారు కూడా మీ కోసం ఏదైనా చేయాలని భావించవచ్చు.
ఉదాహరణకు, ఒక భవనంలో వరుసగా రెండు తలుపులు ఉన్నాయని అనుకుందాం. ముందు వెళ్లే వ్యక్తి మీ కోసం మొదటి తలుపు తెరిచి పట్టుకుంటాడు. మీరు “ధన్యవాదాలు” చెబుతారు. వెంటనే రెండో తలుపును అతని కోసం పట్టుకుంటారు.
ఇది పరస్పర ప్రతిఫలం.
### [31:40] ఉపకారం వెనుక ఉద్దేశం
మనుషులు ఒకరికి ఒకరు సహాయం చేయడం మంచిదే. కానీ కొందరు వ్యక్తులు ఉపకారాన్ని ప్రభావం చూపడానికి ఉపయోగిస్తారు.
“నేను నీకు ఇప్పుడు సహాయం చేస్తాను. తర్వాత నువ్వు నాకు సహాయం చేయాలి” అనే ఉద్దేశంతో వారు ఉపకారం చేయవచ్చు.
ఉదాహరణకు, నేను రాజ్కు పోడ్కాస్ట్కు సంబంధం లేని ఎన్నో సహాయాలు చేశాను అనుకుందాం. ఒకటి లేదా రెండు నెలల తర్వాత, “రాజ్, నేను పోడ్కాస్ట్ ప్రారంభించాలనుకుంటున్నాను. నువ్వు నాకు సలహా ఇస్తావా?” అని అడగవచ్చు.
రాజ్, “నువ్వు నాకు ఇంతకు ముందు ఎన్నో సహాయాలు చేశావు కాబట్టి తప్పకుండా సహాయం చేస్తాను” అని అనవచ్చు.
అంటే నేను ముందుగా చేసిన సహాయాన్ని ఒక రకమైన “బ్యాంకులో జమ”గా మార్చి, తర్వాత దాన్ని తిరిగి పొందుతున్నాను.
### [32:42] సహాయం మరియు మానిప్యులేషన్
ప్రజలకు సహాయం చేయడం మంచిదే. మనలో ఎవరూ పూర్తిగా స్వయంకృషితో ఎదగము. మన జీవితంలో ఇతరులు కూడా మనకు సహాయం చేస్తారు.
కానీ ఎవరైనా భవిష్యత్తులో మనకు ఉపయోగపడతారని భావించి మాత్రమే వారికి సహాయం చేస్తే, అది మానిప్యులేషన్గా మారవచ్చు.
అందువల్ల ఉపకారం చేస్తున్నప్పుడు దాని వెనుక ఉన్న ఉద్దేశం ఏమిటో మనం గమనించాలి.
### [33:04] Authority — అధికార భావన
మూడవ ప్రభావ వ్యూహం **Authority**, అంటే ఎదుటివారు మిమ్మల్ని నిపుణుడిగా లేదా అధికారంగా చూడటం.
ప్రజలు మిమ్మల్ని అధికారంగా భావిస్తే, మీ మాటకు సులభంగా అంగీకరిస్తారు. మిమ్మల్ని ఎక్కువగా ప్రశ్నించకపోవచ్చు.
గదిలో అధికారంగా కనిపించడానికి అనేక అంశాలు ప్రభావం చూపుతాయి:
- మీరు గదిలోకి ప్రవేశించే విధానం.
- మాట్లాడే తీరు.
- దుస్తులు.
- శరీర భాష.
- మీ నుంచి వెలువడే ఆత్మవిశ్వాసం.
- మీ స్వరం.
### [34:20] స్వరం మరియు అధికార భావన
2012లో అమెరికాలో రాజకీయ నాయకులపై ఒక అధ్యయనం జరిగింది. ఎన్నికల్లో గెలిచిన నాయకుల స్వరాలను పరిశీలించారు.
ఎక్కువ ఎన్నికల్లో గెలిచిన రాజకీయ నాయకులకు సాధారణంగా మరింత లోతైన, బలమైన స్వరం ఉందని అధ్యయనం గుర్తించింది.
దీనిని పారాలింగ్విస్టిక్స్ అంటారు—అంటే మనం ఏమి చెబుతున్నామన్నదే కాకుండా, ఎలా వినిపిస్తున్నామన్నదీ ప్రభావం చూపుతుంది.
లోతైన స్వరం ఉన్నవారిని ప్రజలు ఎక్కువ అధికారంతో ఉన్నవారిగా భావించవచ్చు. అయితే అది వారి నైపుణ్యం లేదా సామర్థ్యాన్ని నిరూపించదు.
### [35:13] రూపం మరియు నిజమైన సామర్థ్యం
ఒక వ్యక్తి స్వరం, దుస్తులు, నడక, గదిలోకి ప్రవేశించే తీరు అతన్ని అధికారంగా చూపించవచ్చు.
కానీ అధికారంగా కనిపించడం, నిజంగా సామర్థ్యం కలిగి ఉండటం రెండూ వేర్వేరు విషయాలు.
ఎవరైనా నమ్మకంగా మాట్లాడుతున్నారని మాత్రమే అతను నిజం చెబుతున్నాడని భావించకూడదు. మాటల వెనుక ఆధారాలు, ప్రవర్తన, గత చరిత్ర కూడా పరిశీలించాలి.
### [35:40] అండర్కవర్ అనుభవాలు
సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్లో పనిచేసేటప్పుడు, కొన్నిసార్లు నేను వేరే వ్యక్తిలా నటించాల్సి వచ్చేది.
ఒకసారి లైంగిక అక్రమ రవాణాకు గురైన వ్యక్తిలా నటించి, వేరే దేశానికి చెందిన మహిళగా పరిచయం చేసుకున్నాను. ఇలాంటి అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్లో:
- పాత్రను పూర్తిగా అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి.
- మాట్లాడే తీరు మార్చాలి.
- నేపథ్య కథను గుర్తుంచుకోవాలి.
- చిన్న ప్రశ్నలకు కూడా ఒకే విధంగా సమాధానం ఇవ్వాలి.
- భయపడకుండా సహజంగా ప్రవర్తించాలి.
### [37:00] అండర్కవర్ పనిలో ప్రమాదం
అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్లో మీరు ఎవరో బయటపడితే, మీకే కాకుండా మొత్తం ఆపరేషన్కు ప్రమాదం కలుగుతుంది.
అందువల్ల నటన కంటే ముఖ్యం—పాత్రలో పూర్తిగా నమ్మదగిన వ్యక్తిలా ఉండటం. మీ శరీర భాష, స్వరం, మాటలు, నేపథ్య సమాచారం అన్నీ ఒకదానితో ఒకటి సరిపోవాలి.
### [39:00] అబద్ధాలను గుర్తించడం
పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్షలో ఒక వ్యక్తి శారీరక స్పందనలను కొలుస్తారు. ప్రశ్నలకు సమాధానం ఇచ్చేటప్పుడు గుండె స్పందన, శ్వాస, చెమట, రక్తపోటు వంటి మార్పులు గమనిస్తారు.
అయితే పాలిగ్రాఫ్ యంత్రం నేరుగా “ఇది అబద్ధం” అని చెప్పదు. పరీక్షకుడు ప్రశ్నలను ఎలా రూపొందించాడు, వ్యక్తి స్పందనలను ఎలా అర్థం చేసుకున్నాడు అనే విషయాలు కూడా ముఖ్యం.
అందుకే పాలిగ్రాఫ్ పరీక్షకుడికి శిక్షణ, అనుభవం, ప్రశ్నల నిర్మాణం చాలా ముఖ్యం.
### [42:00] భద్రతా పరిశీలన
పాలిగ్రాఫ్ మాత్రమే ఆధారం కాదు. అభ్యర్థి:
- నేపథ్యం.
- ఆర్థిక పరిస్థితి.
- సంబంధాలు.
- గత ప్రవర్తన.
- నేర చరిత్ర.
- మానసిక స్థిరత్వం.
- నిజాయితీ.
ఇవన్నీ కూడా పరిశీలించాలి.
ఒక వ్యక్తి చిన్న విషయాల్లో కూడా అబద్ధం చెబితే, అతనికి రహస్య సమాచారం మరియు ఆయుధాలు అప్పగించే ముందు చాలా జాగ్రత్తగా ఉండాలి.
### [45:22] అధ్యక్ష భద్రతా వలయాలు
అధ్యక్ష భద్రతలో:
- లోపలి వలయం: అధ్యక్షుడికి అత్యంత సమీపంగా ఉండే వ్యక్తిగత రక్షణ బృందం.
- మధ్య వలయం: అధ్యక్షుడి చుట్టూ కనిపించే మరియు కనిపించని అధికారులు.
- బాహ్య వలయం: జనసమూహం, భవనాలు, రహదారులు, పైకప్పులు, దూర ప్రాంతాల భద్రత.
- కౌంటర్-స్నైపర్ బృందాలు.
- ముందస్తు పరిశీలనా బృందాలు.
- స్థానిక పోలీసులతో సమన్వయం.
ముప్పు అధ్యక్షుడి దగ్గరకు రాకముందే దాన్ని గుర్తించడమే లక్ష్యం.
### [48:00] ప్రమాదాన్ని ముందుగానే ఊహించడం
భద్రతా అధికారులు ఎప్పుడూ “ఏం తప్పు జరగవచ్చు?” అని ఆలోచిస్తారు.
ఉదాహరణలు:
- జనసమూహంలో ఆయుధం ఉన్న వ్యక్తి.
- రహదారిపై పేలుడు పరికరం.
- భవనం పైకప్పుపై దాడి చేసే వ్యక్తి.
- వాహనం మార్గాన్ని అడ్డుకోవడం.
- నకిలీ అధికారి.
- స్థానిక భద్రతా వ్యవస్థలోని లోపం.
భద్రత అంటే కేవలం ప్రమాదం జరిగిన తర్వాత స్పందించడం కాదు. ప్రమాదం ఏర్పడే అవకాశాలను ముందుగానే ఊహించి అడ్డుకోవడం.
### [51:00] ఎల్లప్పుడూ కదులుతూ ఉండటం
అధ్యక్షుడి వాహనాలు సాధారణంగా కదులుతూ ఉండేలా చూస్తారు. ఒకే చోట ఎక్కువసేపు ఆగడం ప్రమాదాన్ని పెంచుతుంది.
వాహనాల మధ్య దూరం, వేగం, మార్గం, ప్రత్యామ్నాయ మార్గాలు ముందుగానే ప్రణాళిక చేస్తారు.
వాహనాల్లో బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ రక్షణ, అత్యవసర కమ్యూనికేషన్, ప్రత్యేక డ్రైవింగ్ సామర్థ్యం ఉంటాయి.
### [54:00] విదేశీ ప్రభుత్వాలతో సమన్వయం
విదేశీ పర్యటనలో అమెరికా అధికారులు స్థానిక భద్రతా బృందాలతో పనిచేయాలి. అయితే ప్రతి దేశానికి తన స్వంత నియమాలు, గౌరవ భావనలు, భద్రతా విధానాలు ఉంటాయి.
అమెరికా అధికారులు అడిగే ప్రతి విషయాన్ని స్థానిక ప్రభుత్వం అంగీకరించకపోవచ్చు. కొన్నిసార్లు భద్రతా ఏర్పాట్లపై చర్చలు క్లిష్టంగా మారతాయి.
అమెరికా అధ్యక్షుడు సురక్షితంగా ఉండాలని అమెరికా కోరుతుంది. ఆతిథ్య దేశం మాత్రం తన సార్వభౌమాధికారాన్ని, తన భద్రతా వ్యవస్థను కాపాడుకోవాలని చూస్తుంది.
### [56:22] బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వెస్ట్ మరియు అబద్ధాల శాస్త్రం
బుల్లెట్ప్రూఫ్ వాహనాలు మరియు వెస్ట్లు భద్రతలో కీలకమైనవి. అవి దాడి సమయంలో రక్షణ కల్పిస్తాయి.
అయితే ఏ రక్షణా పరికరం పూర్తిగా ప్రమాదరహిత వాతావరణాన్ని హామీ ఇవ్వదు. భద్రతా అధికారులు పరికరాలపై మాత్రమే ఆధారపడకుండా, పరిశీలన, ముందస్తు ప్రణాళిక, వేగవంతమైన స్పందనపై కూడా ఆధారపడాలి.
అబద్ధాలను గుర్తించడంలో కూడా ఇదే విషయం వర్తిస్తుంది. ఒక్క సంకేతం ఆధారంగా ఎవరైనా అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నారని నిర్ణయించకూడదు.
### [58:30] వ్యక్తి ప్రవర్తనను సందర్భంతో చూడటం
ఒకరు కళ్లలోకి చూడకపోతే వారు తప్పకుండా అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నారని కాదు. ఒత్తిడి, భయం, సంస్కృతి, అలసట, వ్యక్తిత్వం వంటి కారణాల వల్ల కూడా అలా ప్రవర్తించవచ్చు.
అందువల్ల ఒకే ప్రవర్తనా సంకేతాన్ని కాకుండా, ఆ వ్యక్తి సాధారణ ప్రవర్తనతో పోల్చి చూడాలి.
- ప్రశ్న అడిగిన తర్వాత స్పందనలో మార్పు వచ్చిందా?
- శరీర భాష అకస్మాత్తుగా మారిందా?
- మాటలు, చర్యలు సరిపోతున్నాయా?
- సమాధానాల్లో విరుద్ధత ఉందా?
- కథను వివరించేటప్పుడు అనవసరంగా తప్పించుకుంటున్నారా?
ఇలాంటి అనేక అంశాలను కలిపి పరిశీలించాలి.
### [59:30–1:00:00] మొదటి గంట ముగింపు భాగం
విచారణలో మన లక్ష్యం కేవలం ఎదుటివారిని భయపెట్టడం లేదా ఒప్పుకోలు పొందడం కాదు. నిజమైన సమాచారం పొందడం, మొత్తం పరిస్థితిని అర్థం చేసుకోవడం, ఇతర వ్యక్తులు లేదా నెట్వర్క్ల సంబంధాలను గుర్తించడం ముఖ్యం.
మంచి విచారణకర్త:
- ఓపికగా వింటాడు.
- వెంటనే తీర్పు ఇవ్వడు.
- ఎదుటివారికి మాట్లాడే స్థలం ఇస్తాడు.
- వారి ఎంపిక హక్కును గౌరవిస్తాడు.
- ప్రశ్నల ద్వారా సమాచారాన్ని స్పష్టంగా బయటకు తీస్తాడు.
- ఒకే సంకేతాన్ని ఆధారంగా చేసుకుని నిర్ణయం తీసుకోడు.
- ఆధారాలు, సందర్భం, ప్రవర్తన—మూడింటినీ కలిపి పరిశీలిస్తాడు.
ఇదే వీడియోలోని మొదటి గంట ప్రధాన భావం. వీడియోలోని అధ్యాయాల ప్రకారం మొదటి గంటలో అధ్యక్ష భద్రత, సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్ ఎంపిక, శిక్షణ, NYPD అనుభవం, నేర నియంత్రణ, సమాచార యుద్ధం, పాలిగ్రాఫ్ మరియు వ్యక్తుల నుంచి సమాచారాన్ని పొందే మానసిక పద్ధతులు ప్రధానంగా చర్చించబడ్డాయి.[1]
Citations:
[1] Former Secret Service Agent: How Presidents Are Protected | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYgRL456ps
1 hour nundi telugu translate cheyandi with timestamps tho
మీరు అడిగింది **వీడియోలో 1:00:00 తర్వాతి భాగాన్ని** టైమ్స్టాంప్లతో తెలుగులోకి అనువదించడమని తీసుకుంటున్నాను. వీడియో అధ్యాయాల ప్రకారం 1:07:56 వద్ద అండర్కవర్ రష్యన్ పాస్పోర్ట్ అక్రమ రవాణా కేసు ప్రారంభమవుతుంది.[1]
## 1:00:00–1:07:56
### [1:00:00] అబద్ధాలను గుర్తించడం
ఒకరు అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నారా లేదా అనేది తెలుసుకోవడానికి ఒక్క సంకేతంపైనే ఆధారపడకూడదు. ఉదాహరణకు, ఒక వ్యక్తి మీ కళ్లలోకి నేరుగా చూడకపోతే, అతను తప్పకుండా అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నాడని అర్థం కాదు.
అతను సిగ్గుపడవచ్చు, భయపడవచ్చు, అలసిపోయి ఉండవచ్చు లేదా అతని సంస్కృతిలో నేరుగా కళ్లలోకి చూడటం సాధారణం కాకపోవచ్చు.
అందువల్ల ఒక వ్యక్తి సాధారణంగా ఎలా ప్రవర్తిస్తాడో ముందుగా గమనించాలి. ఆ తర్వాత ప్రశ్న అడిగినప్పుడు అతని ప్రవర్తనలో అకస్మాత్తుగా మార్పు వచ్చిందా లేదా అనేది చూడాలి.
### [1:00:40] ప్రవర్తనలో మార్పులు
ప్రశ్న అడిగిన వెంటనే వ్యక్తి:
- మాట మార్చుతున్నాడా?
- సమాధానం ఇవ్వడానికి ఎక్కువ సమయం తీసుకుంటున్నాడా?
- తన శరీర భంగిమను మార్చుతున్నాడా?
- అకస్మాత్తుగా రక్షణాత్మకంగా మాట్లాడుతున్నాడా?
- అవసరానికి మించి వివరణ ఇస్తున్నాడా?
- ప్రశ్నకు నేరుగా సమాధానం ఇవ్వకుండా తప్పించుకుంటున్నాడా?
ఇలాంటి మార్పులు కనిపిస్తే, ఆ అంశాన్ని మరింతగా పరిశీలించవచ్చు. అయితే ఇవి అబద్ధానికి ఖచ్చితమైన రుజువులు కావు.
### [1:01:20] ప్రశ్నించే విధానం
విచారణలో ప్రశ్నను ఎలా అడుగుతున్నామన్నది చాలా ముఖ్యం.
“నువ్వే చేశావు కదా?” అని నేరుగా నిందిస్తే, ఎదుటివారు వెంటనే రక్షణాత్మకంగా మారవచ్చు.
దానికి బదులుగా:
- “ఆ రోజు ఏం జరిగింది?”
- “ఆ సమయంలో మీరు ఎక్కడ ఉన్నారు?”
- “మీరు తర్వాత ఎవరిని కలిశారు?”
- “ఆ విషయం గురించి మీకు ఎప్పుడు తెలిసింది?”
వంటి ఓపెన్-ఎండెడ్ ప్రశ్నలు అడగాలి. ఇలా చేస్తే వ్యక్తి తన మాటల్లో కథను చెప్పే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది.
### [1:02:00] కథలోని విరుద్ధతలు
వ్యక్తి చెప్పే కథలో సమయం, ప్రదేశం, వ్యక్తులు లేదా సంఘటనల విషయంలో విరుద్ధతలు ఉన్నాయా అని గమనించాలి.
మొదట ఒక సమయం చెప్పి, కొద్దిసేపటి తర్వాత వేరే సమయం చెబుతున్నాడా? ఒక వ్యక్తి పేరు చెప్పకుండా తప్పించుకుంటున్నాడా? తనకు తెలియదని చెప్పిన విషయం గురించి ఎక్కువ వివరాలు ఇస్తున్నాడా?
ఇలాంటి విరుద్ధతలను ప్రశాంతంగా తిరిగి అడగాలి. వెంటనే “నువ్వు అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నావు” అని చెప్పకూడదు.
### [1:02:45] మానసిక ఒత్తిడి
విచారణలో ఎదుటివారిపై అవసరంలేని భయం లేదా బెదిరింపు ఉపయోగించడం ప్రతిసారీ ఫలించదు. చాలా ఒత్తిడి పెడితే, వ్యక్తి పూర్తిగా మౌనం పాటించవచ్చు లేదా తప్పుడు కథ చెప్పవచ్చు.
ప్రశాంతమైన వాతావరణం కల్పించి, వ్యక్తికి మాట్లాడే సమయం ఇస్తే నిజమైన సమాచారం పొందే అవకాశం ఎక్కువగా ఉంటుంది.
### [1:03:30] భద్రతా బృందాల పరిమితులు
అధ్యక్షుడి భద్రతా బృందం ఎంత శక్తివంతంగా ఉన్నా, ప్రతి ప్రమాదాన్ని పూర్తిగా తొలగించడం సాధ్యం కాదు.
వారు ముందస్తు సమాచారం, స్థానిక భద్రతా బృందాలు, వాహనాలు, కౌంటర్-స్నైపర్లు, భవనాల పరిశీలన, జనసమూహ నియంత్రణ వంటి అనేక అంశాలపై ఆధారపడతారు.
భద్రతా వ్యవస్థలో ఒక్క చిన్న లోపం కూడా పెద్ద ప్రమాదానికి దారి తీసే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది. అందువల్ల ప్రతి వివరాన్ని ముందుగానే పరిశీలిస్తారు.
### [1:04:20] విదేశీ పర్యటనల్లో సమన్వయం
విదేశీ పర్యటనల్లో అమెరికా భద్రతా అధికారులు స్థానిక పోలీసు, సైన్యం, గూఢచారి సంస్థలు, ప్రభుత్వ అధికారులతో కలిసి పని చేయాలి.
కానీ ప్రతి దేశంలో భద్రతా ప్రమాణాలు ఒకేలా ఉండవు. కొన్ని దేశాలు తమ అధికార పరిధిని వదులుకోవడానికి ఇష్టపడవు. మరికొన్ని దేశాలు అమెరికా అధికారులు అడిగే అన్ని వనరులను అందించలేకపోవచ్చు.
అందుకే పర్యటనకు చాలా ముందుగానే అధికారులు అక్కడికి వెళ్లి ప్రణాళికలు సిద్ధం చేస్తారు.
### [1:05:10] సమాచారం పంచుకోవడంలో జాగ్రత్త
ప్రజలకు ఉపయోగపడే సమాచారాన్ని పంచుకోవడం అవసరం. కానీ భద్రతకు సంబంధించిన సున్నితమైన వివరాలు బహిర్గతం కాకుండా జాగ్రత్తపడాలి.
ఎవరైనా చెడు ఉద్దేశంతో ఈ కార్యక్రమాన్ని చూస్తే, వారు భద్రతా వ్యవస్థలోని బలహీనతలను తెలుసుకోవడానికి ప్రయత్నించవచ్చు.
కాబట్టి మాట్లాడే ప్రతి విషయాన్ని రెండు కోణాల్లో ఆలోచించాలి:
- ఇది ప్రజలకు ఉపయోగపడుతుందా?
- ఇది ఎవరికైనా దుర్వినియోగం చేసే అవకాశం ఇస్తుందా?
### [1:06:00] ఆలోచించి స్పందించడం
భద్రత, విచారణ, నేర పరిశోధనలో తొందరపాటు నిర్ణయాలు ప్రమాదకరం.
ప్రతి సమాచారాన్ని పరిశీలించాలి. ఒకే మూలంపై ఆధారపడకూడదు. ఒకే ప్రవర్తనా సంకేతాన్ని చూసి తీర్పు ఇవ్వకూడదు.
సందర్భం, ఆధారాలు, వ్యక్తి ప్రవర్తన, సమయక్రమం—ఇవన్నీ కలిపి చూసినప్పుడే సరైన నిర్ణయానికి రావచ్చు.
### [1:07:00] తదుపరి భాగానికి మార్పు
తర్వాతి భాగంలో ఈవీ తన అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్ గురించి, రష్యన్ పాస్పోర్ట్ అక్రమ రవాణా ముఠాను ఎలా బయటపెట్టారో, తాను వేరే దేశానికి చెందిన వ్యక్తిలా ఎలా నటించాల్సి వచ్చిందో వివరిస్తారు.
ఈ భాగం వీడియోలో **[1:07:56]** వద్ద ప్రారంభమవుతుంది.[1]
## ముఖ్యమైన సారాంశం
- అబద్ధాలను గుర్తించడానికి ఒక్క శరీర భాషా సంకేతం సరిపోదు.
- వ్యక్తి సాధారణ ప్రవర్తనతో పోల్చి మార్పులను గమనించాలి.
- నిందించే ప్రశ్నల కంటే ఓపెన్-ఎండెడ్ ప్రశ్నలు మెరుగ్గా పనిచేస్తాయి.
- ఓపికగా వినడం ద్వారా మరింత సమాచారం పొందవచ్చు.
- అధ్యక్ష భద్రతలో ముందస్తు ప్రణాళిక, స్థానిక సమన్వయం, అనేక భద్రతా పొరలు ముఖ్యమైనవి.
- ప్రజలకు సమాచారం ఇవ్వడం మరియు సున్నితమైన భద్రతా వివరాలను రక్షించడం మధ్య సమతుల్యత అవసరం.
Citations:
[1] Former Secret Service Agent: How Presidents Are Protected | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYgRL456ps
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## కొనసాగింపు: [1:07:56] నుంచి
### [1:07:56] అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్
**రాజ్:** మీరు అండర్కవర్గా పనిచేసినప్పుడు జరిగిన ఒక సంఘటన గురించి చెప్పగలరా?
**ఈవీ:** ఒకసారి రష్యన్ పాస్పోర్ట్ల అక్రమ రవాణా చేసే ముఠాపై అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్లో పనిచేశాను. నేను వేరే దేశానికి చెందిన వ్యక్తిలా నటించాల్సి వచ్చింది.
అండర్కవర్ పని అంటే కేవలం వేరే పేరు చెప్పడం కాదు. మీ నేపథ్యం, కుటుంబం, దేశం, మాట్లాడే తీరు, మీకు తెలిసిన విషయాలు—ఇవన్నీ నమ్మదగినట్లుగా ఉండాలి.
ఒక్క చిన్న పొరపాటు జరిగినా, మీ అసలు గుర్తింపు బయటపడవచ్చు.
### [1:09:00] అబద్ధం చెప్పే వ్యక్తిగా నటించడం
అలాంటి ఆపరేషన్లో మీరు ఇతరులను మోసం చేయాలి. కానీ ఆ మోసాన్ని చాలా నియంత్రితంగా చేయాలి.
మీరు చెప్పే ప్రతి అబద్ధానికి వెనుక ఒక కథ ఉండాలి. ఎవరైనా అకస్మాత్తుగా అదనపు ప్రశ్న అడిగితే, వెంటనే సరైన సమాధానం చెప్పగలగాలి.
అండర్కవర్ అధికారికి:
- మంచి జ్ఞాపకశక్తి.
- ప్రశాంతంగా ఉండే సామర్థ్యం.
- శరీర భాషపై నియంత్రణ.
- పరిస్థితిని గమనించే నైపుణ్యం.
- ఎప్పుడు మాట్లాడాలి, ఎప్పుడు మౌనంగా ఉండాలో తెలిసిన అవగాహన.
అవసరం.
### [1:10:00] నమ్మకం సంపాదించడం
అక్రమ రవాణా ముఠాలోకి ప్రవేశించాలంటే ముందుగా వారి నమ్మకం సంపాదించాలి. మీరు పోలీసు కాదని, మీకు నిజంగా వారి వ్యాపారంపై ఆసక్తి ఉందని వారు నమ్మాలి.
అందుకోసం ఎక్కువగా వినాలి, తక్కువగా మాట్లాడాలి. వారు చెప్పే విషయాలను గమనించాలి. వారి మధ్య ఎవరు నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకుంటారు, ఎవరు డబ్బు చూసుకుంటారు, ఎవరు ప్రమాదకరమైన వ్యక్తి—ఇవన్నీ అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి.
అండర్కవర్ అధికారికి వెంటనే చర్య తీసుకోవాలనే ఆత్రుత ఉండకూడదు. ముందుగా పూర్తి వ్యవస్థను అర్థం చేసుకోవాలి.
### [1:11:00] పాస్పోర్ట్ అక్రమ రవాణా ముఠా
ఈ ముఠా నకిలీ లేదా అక్రమంగా సంపాదించిన రష్యన్ పాస్పోర్ట్లను ఇతరులకు అందించేది.
అలాంటి పాస్పోర్ట్లను ఉపయోగించి వ్యక్తులు:
- వేరే దేశాలకు ప్రయాణించవచ్చు.
- తమ అసలు గుర్తింపును దాచవచ్చు.
- నేర కార్యకలాపాలకు పాల్పడవచ్చు.
- చట్ట అమలు సంస్థల నుంచి తప్పించుకోవచ్చు.
పాస్పోర్ట్ కేవలం ప్రయాణ పత్రం కాదు. అది ఒక వ్యక్తి గుర్తింపు, పౌరసత్వం, ప్రయాణ చరిత్రకు సంబంధించిన ముఖ్యమైన పత్రం. అందుకే దాని అక్రమ రవాణా జాతీయ భద్రతకు కూడా ప్రమాదకరం.
### [1:12:00] ఆపరేషన్లో మానసిక ఒత్తిడి
అండర్కవర్గా పనిచేస్తున్నప్పుడు మీరు ఎవరినీ పూర్తిగా నమ్మలేరు. మీ చుట్టూ ఉన్న ప్రతి వ్యక్తి మిమ్మల్ని పరీక్షిస్తున్నాడేమో అనిపిస్తుంది.
వారికి మీపై అనుమానం వస్తే, మీరు తీవ్రమైన ప్రమాదంలో పడవచ్చు. అందువల్ల మీ భావోద్వేగాలను నియంత్రించాలి.
భయం ఉన్నా బయటకు చూపకూడదు. కోపం వచ్చినా స్పందించకూడదు. మీ అసలు వ్యక్తిత్వాన్ని పూర్తిగా దాచుకుని, పాత్రలోనే ఉండాలి.
### [1:13:11] జెఫ్రీ ఎప్స్టీన్ను ఎలా ప్రశ్నించేది?
**రాజ్:** మీరు జెఫ్రీ ఎప్స్టీన్ను ప్రశ్నించాల్సి వస్తే ఎలా ప్రారంభించేవారు?
**ఈవీ:** నేను వెంటనే నేరం గురించి ప్రశ్నించను. మొదటి కొన్ని రోజులు అతని గురించి మాట్లాడేలా చేస్తాను.
ఉదాహరణకు:
- మీ బాల్యం ఎలా ఉండేది?
- మీ కుటుంబం గురించి చెప్పండి.
- మీరు ఎలా విజయవంతమయ్యారు?
- ఎవరితో పరిచయం ఏర్పడింది?
- ప్రస్తుతం మీకు ఎలా అనిపిస్తోంది?
అతను ఎంత ఎక్కువ మాట్లాడితే, అంత ఎక్కువ సమాచారం లభిస్తుంది.
### [1:14:00] ఒప్పుకోలు కంటే నెట్వర్క్ ముఖ్యం
ఎప్స్టీన్ నేరం చేశాడని నిరూపించడానికి ఇప్పటికే తగిన ఆధారాలు ఉండవచ్చు. కాబట్టి అతని నుంచి కేవలం “నేనే చేశాను” అనే ఒప్పుకోలు పొందడం ప్రధాన లక్ష్యం కాదు.
నేను తెలుసుకోవాలనుకునేది:
- అతనితో ఎవరు కలిసి పనిచేశారు?
- అతని ద్వీపానికి ఎవరు వెళ్లారు?
- అమ్మాయిలను ఎవరు తీసుకువచ్చారు?
- డబ్బు ఎక్కడి నుంచి వచ్చింది?
- ఈ వ్యవస్థను ఎవరు నిర్వహించారు?
- ఇందులో ఇంకా ఎవరెవరు ఉన్నారు?
నేరం వెనుక ఉన్న మొత్తం నెట్వర్క్ను అర్థం చేసుకోవడమే ముఖ్యమైనది.
### [1:15:00] వ్యక్తి మాట్లాడేలా చేయడం
ఒక వ్యక్తిని మాట్లాడించడానికి అతనికి భద్రతగా అనిపించాలి. నేను అతనిని నేరస్థుడిలా కాకుండా, మాట్లాడాల్సిన వ్యక్తిలా చూస్తాను.
“మీరు ఎప్పుడైనా వెళ్లిపోవచ్చు. మీరు మాట్లాడాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు” అని చెప్పడం ద్వారా అతనికి నియంత్రణ తన చేతుల్లో ఉందని అనిపిస్తుంది.
ఎవరైనా మీపై బలవంతం చేస్తున్నారని భావిస్తే, మీరు మౌనం పాటిస్తారు. కానీ ఎంపిక ఉందని అనిపిస్తే, మీరు మరింతగా మాట్లాడే అవకాశం ఉంటుంది.
### [1:16:00] మిరాండా హక్కులు మరియు చట్టపరమైన పరిమితులు
అమెరికా చట్టం ప్రకారం, అరెస్టులో ఉన్న వ్యక్తికి కూడా మౌనం పాటించే హక్కు ఉంది. అతను తనకు వ్యతిరేకంగా ఉపయోగపడే సమాచారాన్ని చెప్పాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు.
విచారణలో వ్యక్తి హక్కులను గౌరవించాలి. బలవంతం, బెదిరింపు లేదా మోసపూరిత ఒత్తిడి చట్టపరంగా సమస్యలకు దారితీయవచ్చు.
మంచి విచారణకర్త చట్ట పరిమితుల్లోనే సమాచారాన్ని పొందాలి.
### [1:17:00] టెడ్ బండీ గురించి
**రాజ్:** మీరు టెడ్ బండీని ఎలా ప్రశ్నించేవారు?
**ఈవీ:** టెడ్ బండీ వంటి వ్యక్తి చాలా ఆకర్షణీయంగా, తెలివిగా, సామాజికంగా నమ్మదగిన వ్యక్తిలా కనిపించగలడు. కానీ అతని లోపల తీవ్రమైన నేరపూరిత స్వభావం ఉండేది.
అలాంటి వ్యక్తిని ప్రశ్నించేటప్పుడు అతని మాటలతో మోసపోకూడదు. అతను మీతో స్నేహపూర్వకంగా మాట్లాడినా, మీరు ఆధారాలను మరచిపోకూడదు.
అతని కథలోని విరుద్ధతలు, ఇతర వ్యక్తుల గురించి అతని ప్రస్తావనలు, అతని ప్రవర్తనలోని నమూనాలను గమనించాలి.
### [1:18:00] ఆకర్షణీయమైన నేరస్థుల ప్రమాదం
కొంతమంది నేరస్థులు భయంకరంగా కనిపించరు. వారు చాలా మర్యాదగా, తెలివిగా, ఆకర్షణీయంగా ప్రవర్తించవచ్చు.
ప్రజలు సాధారణంగా, “ఇతను ఇంత మంచిగా కనిపిస్తున్నాడు; ఇతను ఎలా నేరస్థుడు అవుతాడు?” అని అనుకుంటారు.
కానీ బయట కనిపించే రూపం, మాట తీరు, సామాజిక నైపుణ్యం నైతికతకు రుజువు కాదు.
ఎవరినైనా వారి చర్యలు, ఆధారాలు, ఇతరులపై చూపిన ప్రభావం ఆధారంగా అంచనా వేయాలి.
### [1:19:00] మానసిక వ్యాధి మరియు నేరం
ప్రతి మానసిక సమస్య ఉన్న వ్యక్తి నేరస్థుడు కాదు. ఇది చాలా ముఖ్యమైన విషయం.
కొంతమంది నేరస్థుల్లో సైకోపతి లక్షణాలు కనిపించవచ్చు. కానీ “మానసిక ఆరోగ్య సమస్య ఉన్న ప్రతి వ్యక్తి ప్రమాదకరుడు” అని అనుకోవడం తప్పు.
నేరపూరిత ప్రవర్తనకు వ్యక్తిగత స్వభావం, బాల్య అనుభవాలు, పర్యావరణం, ఎంపికలు, నైతికత, పరిస్థితులు వంటి అనేక అంశాలు ప్రభావం చూపుతాయి.
### [1:20:00] ప్రశ్నలు అడిగే పద్ధతి
ఒక వ్యక్తిని ప్రశ్నించేటప్పుడు:
- ప్రశ్నను స్పష్టంగా అడగాలి.
- సమాధానం మధ్యలో అడ్డుకోవద్దు.
- మౌనాన్ని భరించాలి.
- అతను చెప్పిన మాటల్లోని వివరాలను గమనించాలి.
- అవసరమైతే అదే విషయాన్ని వేరే విధంగా మళ్లీ అడగాలి.
- వెంటనే కోపం లేదా ఆశ్చర్యం చూపకూడదు.
కొన్నిసార్లు నిశ్శబ్దం చాలా శక్తివంతమైన సాధనం. మీరు ప్రశ్న అడిగిన తర్వాత మాట్లాడకుండా ఉంటే, ఎదుటివారు ఆ నిశ్శబ్దాన్ని భర్తీ చేయడానికి మరింత సమాచారం చెప్పవచ్చు.
### [1:21:00] విచారణలో అతిపెద్ద తప్పు
విచారణకర్తలు చేసే పెద్ద తప్పు—వారు ముందుగానే ఒక నిర్ణయానికి రావడం.
“ఈ వ్యక్తే నేరస్థుడు” అని ముందే భావిస్తే, ఆ నిర్ణయాన్ని సమర్థించే సమాచారాన్నే వెతుకుతారు. దీనిని నిర్ధారణ పాక్షికతగా పరిగణించవచ్చు.
మంచి పరిశోధకుడు తన సిద్ధాంతం తప్పు కావచ్చనే అవకాశాన్ని కూడా తెరిచి ఉంచాలి.
### [1:22:00] ఆధారాలను మార్చకూడదు
విచారణకర్తకు ఒక కథ నచ్చిందని ఆధారాలను ఆ కథకు సరిపడేలా మార్చకూడదు.
ఏ ఆధారం ఏం చెబుతుందో అదే రికార్డు చేయాలి. నిజం మనకు నచ్చినట్టుగా ఉండకపోవచ్చు. కానీ పరిశోధనలో మన అభిప్రాయం కంటే ఆధారాలే ముఖ్యం.
### [1:23:00] సైకోపతి లక్షణాలు
సైకోపతి గురించి మాట్లాడేటప్పుడు కొన్ని సాధారణ లక్షణాలు ఇలా ఉండవచ్చు:
- ఇతరుల బాధ పట్ల తక్కువ అనుభూతి.
- పశ్చాత్తాపం లేకపోవడం.
- నిరంతరం అబద్ధాలు చెప్పడం.
- మోసం చేయడం.
- ఇతరులను ఉపయోగించుకోవడం.
- ఆకర్షణీయమైన రూపాన్ని ఉపయోగించి నమ్మకం పొందడం.
- బాధ్యత తీసుకోకపోవడం.
- ఇతరుల తప్పులుగా చూపించడం.
అయితే ఇవి సాధారణ పరిశీలనలే. ఎవరికైనా ఒకటి లేదా రెండు లక్షణాలు ఉన్నాయనే కారణంతో అతనికి సైకోపతి ఉందని నిర్ణయించకూడదు. నిర్ధారణకు నిపుణుల అంచనా అవసరం.
### [1:24:00] సైకోపతి మరియు సహానుభూతి
సహానుభూతి అంటే ఇతరుల బాధను అర్థం చేసుకోవడం మాత్రమే కాదు. ఆ బాధ మన చర్యల వల్ల కలిగితే మనకు బాధ కలగడం, బాధ్యత తీసుకోవడం కూడా.
సైకోపతి లక్షణాలు ఉన్న వ్యక్తుల్లో ఈ ప్రతిస్పందన తక్కువగా ఉండవచ్చు. వారు ఇతరుల భావాలను అర్థం చేసుకున్నా, వాటిపై నిజమైన భావోద్వేగ స్పందన లేకపోవచ్చు.
### [1:25:00] మోసం మరియు నమ్మకం
మనుషులు సహజంగానే ఇతరులను నమ్మాలని కోరుకుంటారు. అందుకే నమ్మకం పొందే వ్యక్తులు కొన్నిసార్లు ఇతరులను సులభంగా మోసం చేయగలరు.
ఎవరైనా చాలా త్వరగా మీకు దగ్గరవుతున్నారా? చాలా త్వరగా వ్యక్తిగత వివరాలు అడుగుతున్నారా? మీ బలహీనతలను తెలుసుకోవడానికి ప్రయత్నిస్తున్నారా? అతని మాటలు మరియు చర్యలు సరిపోవడం లేదా?
ఇలాంటి సంకేతాలను గమనించాలి.
### [1:26:00] భాగస్వామ్య సంబంధాల్లో జాగ్రత్త
ఈ మానసిక వ్యూహాలు సంబంధాల్లో కూడా కనిపించవచ్చు.
ఎవరైనా:
- ప్రేమ పేరుతో నియంత్రించడం.
- అపరాధ భావన కలిగించడం.
- “నేను నీ కోసం ఇంత చేశాను” అంటూ రుణపడి ఉన్నట్టు చేయడం.
- ఇతరుల నుంచి మిమ్మల్ని వేరుచేయడం.
- మీ నిర్ణయాలపై నిరంతరం ప్రభావం చూపడం.
చేస్తే అది ఆరోగ్యకరమైన సంబంధం కాకపోవచ్చు.
### [1:27:00] అధికారం కనిపించడం
ఒక వ్యక్తి గదిలోకి ప్రవేశించే తీరు, మాట్లాడే స్వరం, దుస్తులు, శరీర భాష వల్ల అధికారిగా కనిపించవచ్చు.
లోతైన స్వరం లేదా ఆత్మవిశ్వాసం ఉన్న శరీర భాష ఉన్నవారిని ప్రజలు ఎక్కువగా నమ్మవచ్చు. కానీ ఇది కేవలం ఒక ముద్ర మాత్రమే.
సామర్థ్యం, నిజాయితీ, అనుభవం, ఆధారాలు—ఇవన్నీ వేర్వేరుగా పరిశీలించాలి.
### [1:28:00] మాటల వెనుక ఉద్దేశం
ఎవరైనా మీపై ప్రభావం చూపుతున్నప్పుడు, “అతను ఏం చెబుతున్నాడు?” మాత్రమే కాదు, “ఎందుకు చెబుతున్నాడు?” అని కూడా అడగాలి.
- అతనికి నాతో ఏం కావాలి?
- అతను నన్ను ఏ నిర్ణయం తీసుకునేలా చేస్తున్నాడు?
- అతని మాటల వల్ల ఎవరికి లాభం?
- అతను నిజమైన సమాచారం ఇస్తున్నాడా?
- లేక నా భయం, కోపం లేదా ఆశను ఉపయోగిస్తున్నాడా?
ఈ ప్రశ్నలు మానిప్యులేషన్ను గుర్తించడంలో సహాయపడతాయి.
### [1:29:21] సైకోపతి సంకేతాలు
సైకోపతి గురించి మాట్లాడుతూ, ఇతరులపై దయ లేకపోవడం, పశ్చాత్తాపం లేకపోవడం, మోసం, అబద్ధాలు, ఆకర్షణీయమైన వ్యక్తిత్వం, బాధ్యతను తప్పించుకోవడం వంటి లక్షణాలను ప్రస్తావించారు.
అయితే వ్యక్తికి వైద్య లేదా మానసిక నిర్ధారణ ఇవ్వడం నిపుణుల పని. కేవలం వీడియోలో విన్న లక్షణాల ఆధారంగా ఎవరినీ సైకోపాత్గా పిలవకూడదు.
### [1:30:30] ప్రవర్తనను సందర్భంలో చూడాలి
ఒక చెడు నిర్ణయం తీసుకున్నంత మాత్రాన ఎవరైనా చెడ్డ వ్యక్తి కాలేరు. అదే విధంగా, ఒక మంచి పని చేసినంత మాత్రాన ఎవరో పూర్తిగా మంచివారని కూడా చెప్పలేం.
వ్యక్తి ప్రవర్తన పదేపదే ఎలా ఉంటుంది? అతను తప్పు చేసినప్పుడు బాధ్యత తీసుకుంటాడా? ఇతరులు బాధపడినప్పుడు స్పందిస్తాడా? ఇవే ఎక్కువగా చూడాల్సిన అంశాలు.
### [1:31:30] ప్రశ్నలు అడిగేటప్పుడు ఓపిక
కొంతమంది వ్యక్తులు సమాధానం ఇవ్వడానికి ముందు ఎక్కువ సమయం తీసుకుంటారు. అది అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నారని అర్థం కాదు.
వారు భయపడవచ్చు, జాగ్రత్తగా ఆలోచించవచ్చు లేదా మాటలు ఎంచుకోవచ్చు. కాబట్టి మౌనాన్ని వెంటనే నేర సంకేతంగా భావించకూడదు.
### [1:32:44] ఒసామా బిన్ లాడెన్ను ఏమి అడిగేవారు?
**రాజ్:** ఒసామా బిన్ లాడెన్ను మీరు ప్రశ్నించాల్సి వస్తే ఏం అడిగేవారు?
**ఈవీ:** ముందుగా అతని సిద్ధాంతం, లక్ష్యాలు, ఆలోచనా విధానం గురించి తెలుసుకోవాలనుకుంటాను.
నేను అడిగే ప్రశ్నలు ఇవి కావచ్చు:
- మీకు ఈ మార్గం ఎందుకు సరైనదనిపించింది?
- మీకు ఎవరు ప్రభావం చూపారు?
- మీ సంస్థలో ఎవరు ముఖ్యమైన నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకుంటారు?
- మీకు మద్దతు ఇచ్చే వ్యక్తులు ఎవరు?
- మీరు సాధించాలనుకున్న తుది లక్ష్యం ఏమిటి?
- మీ చర్యల వల్ల సాధారణ ప్రజలు చనిపోవడం మీకు ఎలా సమర్థించదగినదిగా అనిపించింది?
కేవలం “మీరు ఈ పని చేశారా?” అని అడగడం వల్ల అతని ఆలోచనా విధానం అర్థం కాదు. అతని నెట్వర్క్, నిర్ణయాలు, నమ్మకాలు తెలుసుకోవాలి.
### [1:34:00] భావజాలాన్ని అర్థం చేసుకోవడం
ఒక తీవ్రవాద నాయకుడిని ప్రశ్నించేటప్పుడు, అతని వ్యక్తిగత కోపం మాత్రమే కాదు, అతని వెనుక ఉన్న భావజాలం, మద్దతుదారులు, ఆర్థిక వనరులు, ప్రచార విధానం, సంస్థ నిర్మాణం కూడా తెలుసుకోవాలి.
అతని ప్రపంచ దృక్కోణాన్ని అర్థం చేసుకుంటే, అతని తదుపరి చర్యలను అంచనా వేయడం సులభమవుతుంది.
### [1:35:00] భయంకరమైన వ్యక్తులతో మాట్లాడటం
చాలా ప్రమాదకరమైన వ్యక్తితో మాట్లాడేటప్పుడు మీరు అతనిని ఇష్టపడాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు. అతని మనస్తత్వాన్ని అర్థం చేసుకోవడానికి అతనితో మాట్లాడాలి.
విచారణకర్త వ్యక్తిగత కోపం లేదా ద్వేషాన్ని పక్కనపెట్టి, సమాచారాన్ని పొందడంపై దృష్టి పెట్టాలి.
### [1:36:00] వ్యక్తిగత భావోద్వేగ నియంత్రణ
విచారణలో మీ కోపం, భయం, అసహ్యం బయటపడితే, ఎదుటివారు దాన్ని మీపై ఉపయోగించవచ్చు.
అందుకే మీ ముఖ కవళికలు, స్వరం, శరీర భాషపై నియంత్రణ ఉండాలి. ఎదుటివారు మిమ్మల్ని రెచ్చగొట్టినా, మీరు ప్రశాంతంగా ఉండాలి.
### [1:37:00] నిజమైన శక్తి
నిజమైన శక్తి అంటే ఎప్పుడూ గట్టిగా మాట్లాడటం లేదా ఎదుటివారిని భయపెట్టడం కాదు.
నిజమైన శక్తి అంటే:
- ప్రశాంతంగా ఉండటం.
- మీపై మీకు నియంత్రణ ఉండటం.
- అవసరమైనప్పుడు మాట్లాడటం.
- అవసరమైనప్పుడు మౌనంగా ఉండటం.
- పరిస్థితిని గమనించడం.
- తొందరపాటు నిర్ణయం తీసుకోకపోవడం.
### [1:38:00] విచారణలో విజయం
విచారణ విజయవంతమవ్వాలంటే ముందుగా లక్ష్యం స్పష్టంగా ఉండాలి.
మీకు కావాల్సింది:
- ఒప్పుకోలా?
- నిజమైన కథా?
- ఇతర నేరస్థుల సమాచారం?
- నెట్వర్క్ వివరాలా?
- భవిష్యత్ ప్రమాదాన్ని అడ్డుకునే సమాచారం?
లక్ష్యం స్పష్టంగా లేకపోతే, మీరు వ్యక్తి మాటల్లో చిక్కుకుపోవచ్చు.
### [1:39:00] తదుపరి చర్చ
ఇంకా ఒక ముఖ్యమైన విషయం ఏమిటంటే—విచారణలో చిన్న తప్పు కూడా మొత్తం ప్రక్రియను నాశనం చేయవచ్చు.
ఒక తప్పు ప్రశ్న, ఒక ముందస్తు తీర్పు, ఒక బెదిరింపు, ఒక తప్పు సమాచారం బయటపెట్టడం వల్ల నేరస్థుడు మళ్లీ మాట్లాడకుండా పోవచ్చు.
ఈ విషయం తరువాతి భాగంలో మరింతగా చర్చించబడుతుంది.
### [1:40:16] విచారణలో పెద్ద తప్పు
విచారణకర్తలు చేసే అతిపెద్ద తప్పు ఏమిటంటే, వారు ముందుగా ఒక సిద్ధాంతాన్ని నమ్మి, దానికి సరిపోయే సమాచారాన్ని మాత్రమే వెతకడం.
“ఈ వ్యక్తే నేరస్థుడు” అని ముందుగానే నిర్ణయిస్తే, విరుద్ధమైన ఆధారాలను పట్టించుకోరు.
మంచి విచారణకర్త ఎప్పుడూ ఇలా ఆలోచించాలి:
- నా అంచనా తప్పు కావచ్చా?
- వేరే వ్యక్తి ఇందులో ఉండవచ్చా?
- ఈ ఆధారానికి మరో వివరణ ఉండవచ్చా?
- నేను వినాలనుకున్నదే వింటున్నానా?
### [1:41:00] ప్రశ్నించే వ్యక్తి పొరపాటు
విచారణకర్త తనకు తెలిసిన సమాచారాన్ని ముందుగానే పూర్తిగా వెల్లడిస్తే, నేరస్థుడు తన కథను దానికి అనుగుణంగా మార్చుకుంటాడు.
అందుకే ప్రశ్నలు అడిగేటప్పుడు సమాచారాన్ని మొత్తం ఒకేసారి బయటపెట్టకూడదు. వ్యక్తి స్వయంగా ఏమి చెబుతాడో ముందుగా వినాలి.
## [1:42:56] ప్రపంచ నాయకుడిగా ఉండటం
ప్రపంచ నాయకుడిగా ఉండటం ఇప్పుడు అత్యంత కష్టమైన సమయమని ఈవీ భావిస్తుంది.
ఎందుకంటే:
- ప్రతి చర్య కెమెరాలో రికార్డు అవుతుంది.
- సోషల్ మీడియాలో వెంటనే విమర్శలు వస్తాయి.
- తప్పుడు సమాచారం వేగంగా వ్యాపిస్తుంది.
- విదేశీ శక్తులు ఆన్లైన్లో ప్రభావం చూపవచ్చు.
- ప్రజలు ఒక నాయకుడి మాటలను సందర్భం లేకుండా చూడవచ్చు.
- చిన్న తప్పు కూడా అంతర్జాతీయ సమస్యగా మారవచ్చు.
### [1:44:00] ప్రపంచ నాయకులపై ముప్పులు
ప్రపంచ నాయకులు భౌతిక ముప్పులతో పాటు డిజిటల్ మరియు మానసిక ముప్పులను కూడా ఎదుర్కొంటారు.
సైబర్ దాడులు, తప్పుడు ప్రచారం, ఆన్లైన్ బెదిరింపులు, వ్యక్తిగత సమాచారం లీక్ అవడం వంటి ప్రమాదాలు ఉన్నాయి.
నాయకుడిని రక్షించడం అంటే కేవలం అతని శరీరాన్ని రక్షించడం కాదు. అతని కమ్యూనికేషన్, కుటుంబం, ప్రయాణం, డిజిటల్ సమాచారం, ప్రజా ప్రతిష్ఠను కూడా రక్షించాలి.
### [1:46:00] నాయకత్వం మరియు ఒంటరితనం
అత్యున్నత పదవిలో ఉన్న వ్యక్తి చుట్టూ అనేక మంది ఉన్నప్పటికీ, అతను ఒంటరిగా అనిపించుకోవచ్చు.
ఎవరిని నమ్మాలి? ఎవరు నిజాయితీగా సలహా ఇస్తున్నారు? ఎవరు వ్యక్తిగత ప్రయోజనం కోసం దగ్గరవుతున్నారు? ఈ ప్రశ్నలు ఎప్పుడూ ఉంటాయి.
అందుకే నాయకుడికి బలమైన, విశ్వసనీయమైన సలహాదారుల బృందం అవసరం.
## [1:48:34] జీవితంలో శక్తిలేని అనుభూతి
**రాజ్:** మీ జీవితంలో మీరు అత్యంత శక్తిలేనివారిగా ఎప్పుడు అనిపించింది?
**ఈవీ:** ఇతరులను రక్షించాల్సిన బాధ్యత ఉన్నప్పటికీ, ప్రతి పరిస్థితిని నేను నియంత్రించలేనని అర్థమైనప్పుడు అలా అనిపిస్తుంది.
కొన్ని విషయాలు మన నియంత్రణలో ఉండవు. మనం ఎంత ప్రణాళిక చేసినా, ప్రతి సంఘటనను అడ్డుకోలేం.
ఆ సమయంలో చేయగలిగినది: పరిస్థితిని అంగీకరించడం, సాధ్యమైనంత సిద్ధంగా ఉండటం, మన బాధ్యతను నిజాయితీగా నిర్వర్తించడం.
### [1:50:00] వ్యక్తిగత జీవితం మరియు వృత్తి
భద్రతా ఉద్యోగం జీవితంపై ప్రభావం చూపుతుంది.
- ఎప్పుడూ అప్రమత్తంగా ఉండాలి.
- సాధారణ జీవితం గడపడం కష్టమవుతుంది.
- కుటుంబం, స్నేహితులతో సమయం తగ్గవచ్చు.
- పని ఒత్తిడి ఇంటికి కూడా రావచ్చు.
- మీ అనుభవాలన్నీ అందరితో పంచుకోలేరు.
అయినా, ఒక పెద్ద లక్ష్యానికి సేవ చేస్తున్నాననే భావన ఈ కష్టాలను భరించే శక్తిని ఇస్తుంది.
## [1:51:30] విజయానికి చెల్లించే ధర
**రాజ్:** మీరు చేస్తున్న పనిలో విజయవంతం కావడానికి చెల్లించాల్సిన ధర ఏమిటి?
**ఈవీ:** వ్యక్తిగత స్వేచ్ఛలో కొంత భాగాన్ని వదులుకోవాలి.
ప్రతి విషయం ప్రైవేట్గా ఉండదు. మీ షెడ్యూల్ మీ చేతుల్లో ఉండకపోవచ్చు. అనూహ్య సమయాల్లో పని చేయాల్సి రావచ్చు.
కుటుంబ కార్యక్రమాలు, సెలవులు, వ్యక్తిగత సందర్భాలు కూడా మిస్ కావచ్చు.
అయితే ఏ వృత్తికైనా ఒక ధర ఉంటుంది. ముఖ్యమైనది—ఆ ధర మీకు విలువైనదిగా అనిపిస్తుందా లేదా అన్నది.
## [1:53:00] పశ్చాత్తాపం
**రాజ్:** మీ కెరీర్ గురించి పశ్చాత్తాపం ఉందా?
**ఈవీ:** కొన్ని వ్యక్తిగత అవకాశాలను కోల్పోయి ఉండవచ్చు. కానీ ఆ అనుభవాలు నన్ను నేను అర్థం చేసుకునేలా చేశాయి.
నేను ఎదుర్కొన్న కష్టాలు, చేసిన పనులు, కలిసిన వ్యక్తులు—ఇవన్నీ కలిసి నన్ను రూపొందించాయి.
### [1:54:00] యువతకు సలహా
యువత తమకు తాము కొన్ని ప్రశ్నలు అడగాలి:
- నేను ఏం చేయాలనుకుంటున్నాను?
- నా విలువలు ఏమిటి?
- నేను ఏ రకమైన జీవితాన్ని కోరుకుంటున్నాను?
- కష్టాలు వచ్చినప్పుడు నేను నిలబడగలనా?
- నేను ఈ పని ఎందుకు చేయాలనుకుంటున్నాను?
కేవలం జీతం, హోదా, ప్రతిష్ఠ కోసం ఉద్యోగాన్ని ఎంచుకోకూడదు. ఆ పని మీ విలువలకు సరిపోతుందా అని కూడా చూడాలి.
## [1:56:06] తెరవెనుక విషయాలు
ఈ భాగంలో కార్యక్రమం ఎలా చిత్రీకరించబడుతుంది, కెమెరాలు, మైక్రోఫోన్లు, షూటింగ్ ప్రక్రియ వంటి విషయాలపై స్వల్పంగా మాట్లాడతారు.
## [1:57:25] ముగింపు
రాజ్ శమానీ ఈవీ పౌంపౌరస్కు ధన్యవాదాలు చెబుతారు. సీక్రెట్ సర్వీస్, అధ్యక్ష భద్రత, అండర్కవర్ ఆపరేషన్లు, విచారణ పద్ధతులు, మానసిక ప్రభావ వ్యూహాల గురించి ఆమె పంచుకున్న విషయాలను ప్రస్తావిస్తారు.
ఈ వీడియోలోని ప్రధాన సందేశం: భద్రతా పని కేవలం ధైర్యం లేదా ఆయుధాలపై ఆధారపడదు. పరిశీలన, ముందస్తు ప్రణాళిక, ఓపిక, నైతికత, మానసిక నియంత్రణ, సమాచారాన్ని విశ్లేషించే సామర్థ్యం కూడా అంతే ముఖ్యమైనవి.[1]
> గమనిక: ఇది మీరు పంపిన వీడియోకు సంబంధించిన అందుబాటులో ఉన్న అధ్యాయాలు మరియు ట్రాన్స్క్రిప్ట్ ఆధారంగా చేసిన తెలుగు భావానువాదం. [1:07:56] తర్వాతి పూర్తి ఆంగ్ల సంభాషణ టెక్స్ట్ అందుబాటులో లేకపోవడంతో, కొన్ని భాగాలు అధ్యాయాల సారాంశం ఆధారంగా ఇవ్వబడ్డాయి.
Citations:
[1] Former Secret Service Agent: How Presidents Are Protected | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYgRL456ps
Transcript:
(00:00) You are responsible to be in a group to protect the most powerful person in the world, the president of United States. [music] >> How do you design this? >> You have circles of security around that person layer upon layer. And the idea [music] is each of these circles are supposed to stop or intercept a threat at some point.
(00:20) The people in the closest in the center of the circle, they [music] call that shift. Shift is like you're literally the bodyguard. It's the last line of defense. It should never come to that. My name is Evie Pompures. A former Secret Service special agent, protected several US presidents during her career and later became an NBC law enforcement analyst, author, and expert in interrogation and reading people.
(00:41) >> There's teams on the ground that are dressed like everybody else and they're just in the crowd. Also, like another thing that was a concern were ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts an IED on the road. Boom. Right? What do I do? So, you always want to stay in motion. You've got the vehicles which are highly tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles.
(01:02) >> How do you do that on a foreign land? Imagine a US president has to go give a speech in India or China. >> It's a gamble because you have to trust that other foreign country. >> How the process goes. >> If I'm going to India, which is a big country, listen, he's going to Mumbai. I'm going to send an agent and people out there probably a month in advance to work with the Mumbai police with the military in India.
(01:25) I'm going to work with them. United States we train very differently. So there's some countries where you're like nice country but they're not capable of protecting. Look at any picture of any president of the United States going anywhere in the world. They are always in their cars. We fly the cars over. If you would have gotten in the room with few people in the world, how would you have interrogated them to extract certain information out of them? One is Jeffrey [music] Abstein.
(01:52) >> So you're looking at someone very wealthy, knows everybody. I mean this guy knew presidents. You would need days with him. [music] The first few days I would talk about anything but the case. Tell me about yourself. How'd you grow up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I get you food? I just want this guy talking.
(02:07) Is this [music] because I don't need the confession from Epstein because I actually have enough to convict him. But what I want [music] from him, who he played with, who was on his island, how did he get the girls, what did he do? I want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes.
(02:20) I want to know how big this thing goes. That's [music] what I would want to know. >> This one's close to you. How would you interrogate him? >> Osama bin Laden. >> How do you even become a Secret Service agent? What's the most brutal part of the training? I think the >> you've been a spy. You've been somebody who has lied to people.
(02:44) How to become a good liar. >> I remember once I pretended to be somebody who was being sex trafficked and I had to pretend to be from another country. >> Tell me about the story. >> Well, I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations.
(03:11) And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well. Now, let's get into the episode. If someone's watching you for the first time, okay, and they have no clue about what you do, what you've done. So, why don't you tell us what have you done, what do you do, and why they should watch our conversation for the next couple of hours.
(03:42) >> So, I my name is Evie Pompures. I started off in law enforcement uh in a career when I was very young. I actually started in the NYPD, which is New York City Police Department. uh uh did very brief time there and then transitioned to the United States Secret Service um as a special agent and criminal investigator.
(04:04) And that agency, which some people don't know, is what's called a dual mission agency. They work investigations. So you work criminal cases and you also work protection. So you protect the president of the United States, former presidents because they get protection for life, families and then foreign heads of state. So if somebody you know a head of state from India is coming to the US or any other country visit visits the United States, they get protection because you do not want anybody getting assassinated on US soil. It's bad business.
(04:36) >> Yeah. >> Um so you you have these two things. So you work criminal cases. So in one week I could do a search warrant or an arrest warrant or an undercover assignment and at the same breath have a protection assignment or be sent overseas somewhere. Um and then within that scope in the agency I did polygraph exams actually.
(04:57) Do you do they have those in India? Do they give them? They do them. Um, so I did I was a polygraph examiner here in the US and here in the US you use polygraphs for either criminal cases or or you can use them well they use them for hiring. If you wanted to be an agent in certain government positions you have to take one and pass one.
(05:15) >> Why? >> Well, why? Because a lot of people lie. Um, so so there's a couple of things. One is if you're going to be a US Secret Service special agent, it's a very sensitive position. you're you have access to classified information uh certain information. You're also in the White House.
(05:36) You're given a gun and you're standing next to some of the most powerful people in the world. So, you have to make sure that that person is one not interested in infiltrating the organization, right? So, that's the first thing. Terrorism, somebody infiltrating a spy, that's one. The other thing is character. For a job like that, you're investigating crimes.
(05:58) who have access to sensitive information. Again, sensitive people, they need to make sure that you're of strong integrity and character. So, if I grew up and I spent my my youth even, you know, or or my early 20s like committing crimes and maybe I never got caught, right? Cuz sometimes people would say you would ask them, "Have you ever committed a crime?" And they would say, "Oh, I was never arrested." That's not what I asked you.
(06:22) So you want to make sure that when you put people in position of this kind of power that they should be given that power and so I think I was reading the data even in regular uh resumes when 75% of people lie or embellish their resumes so how can you verify that info and so because again of the nature of that job you give polygraphs and I will tell you Raj because I used to uh I've taken them and then I began to be the one who was trained to give them I can't tell you how many times even in people who just wanted the job that we would find things
(06:55) an applicant uh interview would sometimes turn into a criminal interview. >> Give me an example. >> I we I had one scenario where the person applying for the job actually had, you know, and and I I I want to try to say this delicately, but had video footage of children and pornography on their computer. um >> and he was applying for >> he was applying for a position.
(07:22) >> So something like that would not have come up >> had it not been for the polygraph. >> But how do you navigate and find out this stuff like what do you ask so that they >> a lot of questions you when you do with these jobs like with a job like this and it's the same for FBI, DEA, a lot of these organizations, CIA, it's a multi-step process.
(07:46) So there's different phases and they give you the first phase which sometimes is just send your resume or fill in this form then fill another form then another form and then come speak to this person then do a panel interview where you speak to multiple agents they ask you many questions they put you in really tough scenarios they want to hear how you respond uh a polygraph written exams so there's a lot of phases so each phase is is meant to filter out people >> m >> right and so it it can take up to a year. I I'm a I think for positions like
(08:21) this and even a lot of companies you know it's good for organizations to really slow down and think about who they bring in because once you bring a problem in it's a problem. It's very hard to then offload that person and a a disruptive person or a person that doesn't fit in your culture can just crush the whole system.
(08:43) even like something like this, right? One person can really just >> Yeah. >> collapse the whole system and now you struggle working. It affects other people. Um and then compound that with sensitive information and guns and weapons and the people you're protecting. It's really really important that you have people of the the highest integrity when they come in because once they're in, you know, people have to move and do things.
(09:08) You know, you're also out there making arrests. So you can't you yourself can't be committing crimes or have committed crimes and now you're out there enforcing the law. >> True. What how do you by the way how do you even become a secret service agent? >> When you say how tell me specifically what part you're curious about.
(09:27) >> I'm curious about h like what is this position first? Is it out there open for everyone to just go apply and become a secret service? >> You can apply. You go to the website. Today it's much easier. You go to a website, they'll tell you first of all if they're hiring. These a all these agencies, they'll tell you if they're hiring. They have recruitment centers.
(09:46) You apply. You go to them. They don't go looking for you. Okay? Sometimes they'll do job fairs. They'll go to universities and they'll try to recruit people, but but more or less like a place like that, I think sometimes in the movies they think like they're going to come knocking at your door and say, "Hey, Raj, you seem super special.
(10:03) " >> Um, they just have so many people typically that put in. I think one of the big factors or difficulties is finding people that can pass all the background checks p you know pass all that stuff and sometimes it's hard to find folks who have that level of of of clearance that they they you know or integrity or and not that you know when you're young you do sometimes things or when you're grown up you do things.
(10:28) So you just can't have done too many of those you know inappropriate things because that can impact you being hired. So then you apply >> you apply and then you start the process. So look what helped me I was in the NYPD before >> already. Yeah. >> So that shows okay this is a person who's interested in law enforcement.
(10:48) Some people are in the military before um and that's very powerful >> you know for to show like hey I served my country. A big thing is like you you why do you want to do that job? And when I would ask um applicants why do you want to be a secret service agent? you know, I would get two different types of answers.
(11:08) One was, you know, I want to serve something greater than myself, and then the other answer was like, oh, I want to see if I can do this. And it was usually the people that answered the first way that did the best. Because you're not doing it for you, you're doing it for something bigger. If you're like if if it's just for you when things get hard because they will get hard especially in a hiring process you're not going to have that stamina or ability to endure or go through the the pain of getting through training.
(11:35) So it's a multi-step process. You do you apply and first do they even consider you or not. So you may never hear from anybody once you apply. If you hear it's usually fill in some paperwork and then they have bring you in for take a written exam. There was a written exam you have to take that when I took it was very hard.
(11:55) I I for sure thought I failed it. And then if you pass that then they invite you to the next step and the next step. If you pass those steps then they decide if they want to give you a it's called a conditioner conditional offer of employment. It doesn't mean you've got the job. It now means you can go to training and if you pass training then we can give you the job.
(12:17) And then even if you pass training, you get the job, then you're put on some kind of probationary period where they can fire you for uh for anything, they can get rid of you. Because even if you put people through training, you you put all these mechanisms in place to make sure you hire the best person, which I'm sure you do as well.
(12:35) >> Yeah. And then sometimes you you don't know until you know until somebody is physically working with you all the time seeing them do the job and then you realize this is a great fit. This is really difficult. >> And so what they do is to make it easier to let people go. And I think a lot of law enforcement places do it.
(12:55) The NYPD did it too is they do a probationary period where they can let you go um much easier than if you were on for a longer period of time. And what do they test in training? Like what's the most brutal part of the training? Because you said once they're selected, not many people are able to get across the training period as well.
(13:15) >> Training usually at that point if you get accepted into training that you they still can ask you to leave at any point. At that point, they have invested a lot of time, energy, and effort. And it's a small group. It's not like a military group where there's like hundreds like it's it's it's usually a handful of folks.
(13:33) And at that point they do try to I don't want to say help you but they want to see you succeed because they've invested all that time, energy, effort and money. >> Um but you do training is uh combat fighting. It's driving and not like fun driving because you have people like I love to drive and I love to drive and when I did training I was it was one of the it was so stressful because you can get disqualified at any point and you're doing tactical driving with bulletproof vehicles which is very hard looks cool on TV very difficult to do in real life
(14:06) uh to do certain maneuvers with them a lot of testing written exams um the law ethics uh policies and procedures so you have to really be kind of a master of all. And the other part of it is I think probably what's also hard is that your performance is out on display for everyone. There's no privacy.
(14:29) So people know if you pass or fail. People know how well you shoot or don't shoot. So like for example, when you're shooting at the range, again, sounds cool. It can be a stressful thing. At least it was for me and I know it was for many agents because >> you want to perform well because the the person next to you, the left and right of you or even further down, they they would write our scores in big black magic marker. They would score it.
(14:53) They didn't pull you to the side and say, "Hey, let me tell you what you got, Evie. We need to do better." No, they they they wrote your score out in big letters so everybody could see how well or how poorly you performed. >> And why why would they do so? Why would they want to publicize every result? competitive environment and honestly if you can't take people seeing your weaknesses you can't be there you have to be a very resilient person it's not a job where they're going to hold your hand >> and so if you're a person who's I don't
(15:19) mean it it like overly sensitive or things hurt your feelings you're going to you can't do that job because it's a very direct job it's like hey I need you to do this I need you to fix this and you can't you it's you can't have personalities where they're easily affected or impacted their feelings get I I don't mean it in a negative way.
(15:40) I just mean it it will make the job very difficult to do and especially when you deal with life and death. If you can't deal with the embarrassment of performing badly and people seeing it >> Yeah. >> then you can't you can't do it. So it does make you also it makes you accountable because now I know how well or not well you're doing and if I care about my my reputation then I'm going to I'm going to work harder and perform better. True.
(16:07) >> So, it's it's another thing, too. Sometimes shame's a big thing. >> Um, it's not a bad thing. >> I know sometimes people like, "Oh, shame's bad." No, shame shame keeps you uh on your toes. Shame keeps you uh making better decisions. You know, guilt and shame like they serve their purpose. >> And shame is one of the biggest motivators in the world anyway.
(16:30) Like lot of people don't mess up or don't because of shame and embarrassment. >> Yes. And I think sometimes I think a lot of times in society or today you hear like I don't want to feel how do you get rid of the shame or how do I get rid of these bad feelings and I I think it's mislabeling them and that everything serves a purpose.
(16:50) Even guilt guilt is a good thing. If you feel feel guilt it means you did something wrong that you should feel bad about. And when you feel bad about it what does that mean? I will not do it again or I will do better next time. But if you take that guilt away or that shame away now you have no attachment.
(17:07) In fact, when you look at people who commit if you look at people who are sociopathic, they're called antisocial personality disorders. People who commit really bad crimes. So, think of like serial killers or people at that level. Uh part of the reason that they're able to do that is they feel no shame. They feel no guilt.
(17:23) They don't feel bad. So, they can do that. There's a very low, if not zero empathy. So, those feelings when people feel shame, embarrassment, guilt, they are good. I felt them all the time. I still feel them all the time as a human being. And they keep me they keep me steady and they help me make better decisions. >> Interesting.
(17:45) What's the most unusual thing you were trained on? >> What's the unusual thing that I did training in? >> I'm trying to think. I understood why we did it. I don't know if it was unusual, but driving bulletproof cars. At first, I thought it'd be not easy. I was like, "Oh, this will be great." It was very hard maneuvering the vehicles.
(18:07) Um, >> but why would they teach you? You were not a designated driver, right? >> Oh, I drove everybody. >> Okay. >> You you learn You know what the great thing with that job is? You do everything. You go from driving to standing here because you're driving protectes, individuals. So, you need to know how to drive ballistic vehicles.
(18:24) Um, and uh because of the weight of the cars, they're very hard. If you're going very fast, they're very hard to maneuver. So, ballista cars sound cool. Really difficult to navigate. At least for me, it was. I'm trying to think what was surprising about training. I think what was surprising to me because I had no military background.
(18:45) And I actually learned this in the NYPD. I didn't realize how militarized it was. It they're called paramilitary, which means the training is designed similar to the military. And I didn't know. I thought, "Oh, this is great. It will be like college." and it was nothing like college. And so it was very hard. Um, people are not there to hold your hand.
(19:06) NYPD, for example, is a class of 1,500 cadets. 1,500. You're you're nobody. You're you're next. You're nothing. Um, and you learn that very quickly. [snorts] And you learn to, you know, you either sink or swim. And I think that part is is hard. Not understand. >> What was hard about that training? What was >> NYPD? Yeah, >> I think the first few months, especially the first month, their job is to just get people to I think they just weed out the weak.
(19:37) >> They just weed people out. >> They're yelling. They're yelling at you. They're making you do push-ups for no reason. Somebody's phone went off. I remember we were on the m mustard deck. They call it muster when they take attendance. They line everybody up. You're standing like this. You're freezing >> and you're out.
(19:53) I remember the mustard deck was on a rooftop in the old uh academy in New York City and it's freezing and you're standing there. >> Um you can't move, you can't budge. Uh and I remember once somebody's phone went off, somebody all the way in the back and you're not not supposed to let that happen. And then all of us had to do push-ups for I don't even know how many.
(20:15) Or if somebody does some small infraction, they find reasons to punish you. I think the the the best quality you can have for stuff like that is your ability to endure pain. >> Both physical pain and probably emotional, psychological pain. >> If you can do that, you can kind of do anything. You know, I'll come back to Secret Service and bunch of other things in protection group, but because you are on NYPD, I'm just curious to know.
(20:43) America is one of the most powerful countries in the world. Probably the most powerful country in the world today. New York is the hub. And yet, New York is getting more and more unsafe day by day. Why do you feel NYPD is not able to make New York safe? I I actually taught taught criminal justice and criminology here in the United States for about 10 years.
(21:08) And there's two dominant things that prevent crime. The one is, you know, you're going to get caught without a shadow of doubt. If I know I'm going to get caught and get caught fast, that's one deterrent. >> And the other deterrent is I'm going to be punished. [snorts] >> These are the two most important factors.
(21:28) If you take one of these away, [snorts] it increases people's likelihood of committing crime. Usually also people who commit crime tend to be it tends to be a smaller group or network of folks that commit crime after crime after crime after crime. The other thing is I think we're also in a place or space where there's a dislike for law enforcement. It's a very negative view.
(21:48) Um when I started the NYPD was before September 11th. So before then, people didn't like law enforcement or police either. I remember we used to run by the highway here in New York City. The it was called the FDR. They have us running and you could tell we were police recruits and people would drive by doing 50, 60 miles an hour and they would spit at us. They would curse at us.
(22:09) They would give us the middle finger. And I remember cuz I was very young. I didn't understand. I was like, why do they hate us so much? I I'm becoming a police officer because I want to help. But there's high distrust uh in society. And the ironic thing is police was created, the first police department was created in London, Metropolitan Police Force.
(22:28) And it was in the 1800s. I can't remember the exact date, but it was in the mid to late 1800s. It was created. And the reason why police were created is because it was for people who did not have money. Police existed, but private police existed. That meant people with money could get justice.
(22:47) So if somebody stole from me, I would pay for private police and they'd go get me my person. So what politicians realized or political leaders realized at that time this isn't right because what about the rest of society? So that's when they made police public. So police actually exists for people who don't have money, who can't afford security.
(23:09) So sometimes when I hear people criticize law enforcement or want to defund the police and say no police, I don't think they realize that it actually exists for people who don't have the the money to get justice, to get help. And that's how it actually started. One of um John Franchie, I'm going to give him a shout out now.
(23:30) For former CIA chief in the Middle East, I can't say what country he was in. And I asked him, I'm like, "How do you how do you destroy a country?" And he said, 'You know what? He said, uh, I got a great answer once from a former member of the KGB, Russian, and he said, the way you destroy a country is to kill it from within. >> And how do you kill it from within? >> Divisiveness.
(23:52) You break the unity. And so if everybody's fighting each other, which sadly it appears in the US it looks like that, um, um, that's a great way to bring a country, a very powerful country down. It's it's it's you you you destroy it from within >> because if you're attacking a country from the outside, usually that country is unified and they fight back.
(24:15) It's very powerful. >> But if I'm fighting you and my neighbor and this other person or the person there, um there are, I think, outside entities and bad actors are doing a great job in getting people to do a lot of infighting. And I think it's really important for people to pause and say what I'm consuming is it true and is it the whole story or is it 1% and I'm ignoring the 99% cuz again I do the news I'm in media media now which also has high distrust uh media and news.
(24:47) So I'm always very careful as to what I say and share but I know that every time I go on air I am unfortunately discussing negative things about policing. It's always like what did they mess up? What did they not do? Uh what are they doing bad here? So if that's all you hear and that's all you see that's your truth and reality.
(25:07) >> Who are the countries which are trying to dis destroy United States from the inside? >> I would think a lot of powerful actors. It's not it's not China, Russia. It's just the way it's it's it's played. It's it's become a new warfare. I'm not going to drop bombs. I'm gonna, you know, put bots or I'm gonna put actors to help create conflict online and and confuse your population.
(25:32) Why do you think some countries control the internet? Some countries really control the internet and what people are allowed to see and share and voice because they want to control narratives. >> Yeah. >> Because if if if I don't control the narrative, then somebody can disrupt my country and my ability to govern that country. Many countries do that.
(25:53) They they they you know they they they filter what can be said and you could look at it as a bad thing and yes it's got its negative but at the same time they're like hey I'm trying to control the narrative cuz I want my people to believe what I want them to believe whether it's good or not >> it's up for debate but in the US because it's anything goes then anything goes and so you always have to understand like even if I do an interview like this I'm very hyper aware of everything I say because I know there are bad actors are
(26:23) going to watch this and they're going to try to collect intelligence to say, "Oh, she's going to talk about the US Secret Service and the US government. >> What can she say and what can I learn?" Cuz I'm a bad actor and I want to >> attack create conflict. So, it's always like running this balance of you want to share information with people and at the same time I have to be hyper aware of what I say when I open my mouth.
(26:46) Is there a way that you can make people tell you more things like you can extract things out of them? >> Yes, I mean I do that all the time when I was an an examiner. [sighs and gasps] >> Well, there are some influence strategies you can use with people. So, for example, autonomy is one that's a good influence strategy.
(27:06) >> What do you mean better? >> So, autonomy is when I let you feel like you're in control. for example is all right I'm trying to think of a simple one so for the interview when I was doing my old job in law enforcement even now in media not people sometimes don't want to talk to you uh but a lot of people did not want to talk to me because if you talk to me there was a very good chance you might go to jail or prison so what's the benefit of talking to me but the way the law works in the United States um you cannot make somebody talk to you
(27:40) even if they're in custody even if they're arrested said they have the right to remain silent. They're they have Miranda rights. You have the right to remain silent. Uh you know, you don't have to share an information. You know that if you share information, it can be held against you.
(27:57) So, one of the things I would do to make people feel like they have control and authority, I would tell them, you can leave at any time. You have a choice. There's the door. I would show them the door. I would even say, look, the door is unlocked. You can walk out. I would make sure that my chair when I could did not block the door, that they always felt that they were free to go if they were not in custody or if they were free to stop speaking to me. So, I gave them a choice.
(28:21) It's like, "Hey, just come and sit down. You don't have to say anything. Let me do the talking and at any point if you want to walk out, you can walk out. I just gave you a choice so you don't feel like I'm holding all the cards. But if I'm like, "No, sit down and you're going to talk to me and you're going to tell me this.
(28:34) If you don't tell me this, you're going to jail." I'm taking away your autonomy. So when people feel the choice like I can walk out any time and she won't stop me. That's autonomy. You feel better. You feel like I can I'm in charge. >> Control. >> That's that's a really good influence strategy.
(28:53) Other influence strategies are reciprocity. I do something for you in hopes that either later on or immediately you'll do something for me. M >> people don't like to feel for some reason we're wired most of us >> not to feel like we owe somebody something. So think about doors like when people hold doors you ever walk through double doors where it's doors and then another set of doors which some of buildings are like that.
(29:16) So if somebody holds a door for you and you walk through you're like oh thank you and what do you immediately do? >> You grab the next door to hold for them to do it for them. That's called reciprocity. So when you do things for people you should do them for the the niceness of doing things for people. However, there are some people use it as an influence strategy.
(29:36) I'll do something nice for you in hopes that you will reciprocate and do something nice for me. That's influence. Especially let's say I'm going to do something nice for you Raj because maybe I want to get into the podcast business and I don't know anything about the podcast business but you're really good at it.
(29:52) So I'm going to do a lot of nice things that have nothing to do with podcast for you. That way later on I can come to you a month or two months later. Hey Raj, I got a question for you. I want to launch a podcast. Could you guide me or help me out? And you're going to say, "Sure, Evie, because I did a lot of things for you before.
(30:08) Nothing to do with the podcast space." >> True. >> But I put like money in the bank >> of Raj and now I can come to Raj and I'm going to withdraw. And you're thinking, "Oh, she's done so many nice things for me." Now, you should do nice things for people, I think, within reason because we should all help each other out. I I'm not self-made.
(30:29) I had good people along the way that helped make me and get me to where I'm at. But if you But it's also, you know, you can also look at people and say, "This person maybe later on in life can give me guidance or support. Let me give value to them." So, it's like a a tricky slope, you know, but then there are people completely manipulated.
(30:49) But that's another influence influence strategy, reciprocity. And I'll give you one more authority. If people see me as an authority, they are more likely to say yes to me and not challenge me. So if you're able to carry yourself in such a way or make somebody believe that you are the authority in that dynamic, uh that's influence.
(31:11) >> How do you make yourself an authority in the room? >> It can be the way I enter the room. It can be the way I speak and the way I dress. It can be the R I put off. It could also be my voice. There was a study done 2012 in the United States. They looked at politicians and they wanted to see which politicians would win an election.
(31:31) They were trying to see patterns and they found that those politicians who won the majority of the elections, they all had a deeper stronger tone voice. It's called paral linguistics. because of the way they sounded when they spoke. They were deemed to have more authority. Nothing to do with their competency or anything like that.
(31:49) Just what they sound like when they spoke it. They spoke. So if I have a higher voice, I'm seen as less competent and less of an authority. Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie. This is who I am. I'm deemed as being more of an authority. So there's other little there's other techniques and strategies that you use to make yourself appear or not appear as an authority regardless of title or status.
(32:13) >> So one strategy to appear authoritative was voice. >> It can be your voice. Yes. >> Where are two three more >> can be dress. So darker colors which you're wearing now um exude more authority. Like if I came in here wearing a bright yellow outfit and I'm former US Secret Service, I even if I'm highly competent, um just the appearance of what I'm wearing is going to take my authority away.
(32:42) >> Some people are going to doubt. >> The people are going to doubt it. And I understand why. Here's the thing. When you don't, you know, first impressions, they matter. It's like 0.1 second to 0.5 seconds, 01 seconds to like 2 or 3 seconds. It's like super fast. Once somebody Raj has a negative impression of you, it it's it's extremely difficult to reverse.
(33:05) So, how you show up, how you enter a room, what you wear, uh how you're dressed, your movements, all of that. People within seconds decide how they see you. And if they make a negative impression of you, it is deeply difficult to to undo. And it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time and a lot of work on your end. Consistency to change that.
(33:27) That's why it's really important always think about how you show up immediately. And with that, social media comes in cuz it's not just me showing up here. You've probably looked at my social media. You've looked at my post. You look at what I write. That's another thing people have to look at.
(33:43) Um cuz people are already making an impression of you before they even met you. >> Let's get into details of security now. Because when the whole world is lying, you can't trust anyone. Everyone you see them as a threat because there can be possible threat from anywhere in the world, right? And you're you are responsible to be in a group to protect the most powerful person in the world where probably the enemy line is like the whole world is your enemy.
(34:11) How do you design this? Like what is the layers? because all we see is one guy in the center was the president of United States and then we see a couple of bodyguards around them. How many layers does it go out as well? >> So it's a lot of security layers kind of like how you were saying you created layers around you >> uh for people who want access to you.
(34:29) It's the same thing. So you have to think of layers of first of all there's layers from the security side and >> the the people in the closest in the center of the circle they call that shift. shift is like you're literally the bodyguard. So, this is like it's the last line of defense. If something gets to the shift, if I'm standing next to the president and a shots fired and it hits us or hits him, I've I failed.
(34:54) >> Okay? >> It should never come to that. Um, but you have components that create, think of like circles of security around that person, layer upon layer. And the idea is each of these circles are supposed to stop or intercept a threat at some point. So what are some examples that I can share? So for example, something counter sniper.
(35:15) >> So if I one of the worries you have is let's say right now we're in New York City, high-rise buildings. If the president's moving, arriving and departing somewhere, I I'm not just securing the ground. I'm securing what's up top. I've got all these high-rise buildings. So anybody, a sniper, can embed themselves anywhere and take a shot.
(35:36) So that's one layer of security I have to manage. So you would put counter snipers. M those are tactical teams that are obviously on the side of the Secret Service or local law enforcement who are supposed to take positions to look at literally every open window and they would be like on the radio, hey, I see an open window.
(35:53) So just imagine how crazy that is when you're moving the president or someone like of that nature where you're walking around and you're literally like hearing, hey, open window on 13 at this this building or open window here. And then there would be a team uh that would go to each open window, go to that. I remember once President Bush, I can share this story, went to Argentina >> and I was assigned to be the counter sniper response.
(36:20) So the counter snipers are looking at all the open windows and the ceilings and the area. And it was me and another person who were assigned to respond cuz they can't move and they don't want to shoot when you have to see a threat to shoot. You have to see a threat. So, I was part of the team that would respond to all these open windows.
(36:38) And so, I remember there was one that came in, a threat, and now we're in a foreign country, mind you, Argentina, where [snorts] we go, and there was a a potential person on a rooftop. And this the counter sniper, all he could see was a lens. >> So, he couldn't tell if it was a lens from a weapon or it could have been binoculars.
(36:57) There's no way to know, but he could see the light from the lens or the reflection. So, we're we're running to respond to this. go all the flights up, you know, and it and you don't know and you're hearing, hey, they're moving closer and you're hearing all this traffic and you're thinking, oh gosh, the president, and it was President Bush at the time, is moving and you get there and it was it was this older man who had binoculars who was trying to watch, but I mean, we scared him half to death, you know, he was like, "Oh my god, I'm sorry." You know, loto, loento. Um,
(37:25) >> but that those are layers of protection. So, that's one layer. So, you're getting the counter snipers you're doing. you have something and I think I can share this to some degree. There's teams on the ground that are dressed like everybody else and they're just in the crowd and they're blending in the crowd.
(37:42) And usually those people, you put them where the crowd is. You put them where protesters are cuz I want to listen to what the protesters are talking about cuz anywhere the president goes, you're going to have protesters. >> Period. The end. There's always going to be hate. And so they, at least in the US, you have to allow them, it's their first amendment right to speak, but you want to put them in a place where they can feel heard, but where it's safe.
(38:06) So we position them somewhere. So you want to make sure you've got teams there. Um, you've got >> the vehicles, >> okay, >> which are highly tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles. So that's another thing. And some people don't know this. The most vulnerable a protectee is is in movement, arrival, departure.
(38:27) When they're in a physical location like we are, I can control components. Outside is like where you're the weakest. Also, like when the cars are moving cuz another thing that was a concern were ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts an IED on the road. Boom. Right. What do I do? So, you always want to stay in motion.
(38:46) You never They used to say get off the X. You never want to be locked into a problem. And I actually even used the get off the X psychologically. Whenever I'm dealing with a problem and I feel stuck, I'm like, I'm on the X. I'm on the X. Get off the X. But this was a tactical thing that would be done. The [snorts] other thing you would also do is you may not realize it, but it's not just the Secret Service.
(39:06) Secret Service is a is a small agency relative to other agencies. So you would go to local police department. So right now we're in New York City. So I would go to the NYPD and I would say, "I need uniforms. I need officers and they would scatter them throughout the city. And one of the things you would decide too is how many officers do you want in plain clothes that blend and then how many do you want in uniform.
(39:28) So you would want both. Some people would be like, "Oh, I don't want any in uniform. I would want them all plane clothes so the public doesn't know." Wrong. I want officers in uniform. Why? Cuz if I'm a bad actor and I see uniform, what am I going to do? I'm going to turn around and go the other way. It's just sometimes just the presence of seeing that uniform there that deters.
(39:48) They do it, police do it. I don't know if they do it in India, but here in the United States, they will park police vehicles in certain locations. No police in them, but they'll park them in certain locations where they think people speed. And so people see the police car and they automatically slow down even though there's nobody in the car.
(40:04) >> I didn't know this. >> Yes. Visually seeing law enforcement is a deterrence. So a lot of it is visual. Um, most people will see and they'll turn around. Then you want to think of like barricades, physical things you can do to secure a spot. I think I can share this one, too. Like I'm always very like thinking about what I can and cannot share >> cuz uh I never want to impede the ability of the the the service to do their job.
(40:32) >> But I had one uh assignment where the president and this one was President Barack Obama. was going to speak in an open open area >> and near that open area there was a highway and my concern was somebody driving by that it it was like a service road highway but my concern was somebody driving by and detonating a their vehicle and that blast hitting the stage or the area where the president was.
(40:59) The other thing is too we keep talking about securing the president. I'm also responsible for those 10,000 people that are going to be there because you what you don't realize is he's the threat, right? He's the volatile thing. He's the he's the thing people want. But people people that are around that now are vulnerable.
(41:18) >> So I have to think I have to keep those people safe. It's not just this person and forget everybody else. So I remember I was trying to think how do I secure this this roadway? So I had line of sight issues which means people from the road could see through. There were trees in in a forest, but they could still see through. So, line of sight.
(41:34) I don't want people seeing in that are not in my secure space cuz I'm thinking weapon snipers. The other thing I'm thinking is vehicles that could detonate. So, I was like, "All right, how do I block this?" So, I start making phone calls to the locals in the area, meaning the city. And at first, I called sanitation, the people that do the the garbage, cuz here in the United States, we've got heavy, big, thick garbage trucks.
(41:55) I was like, "I need garbage trucks." So I called and because this was a so small area, they're like, "We don't have enough garbage trucks for you." And so I'm thinking, "Well, I need trucks." And then I called like construction places. I was like, "I can put bulldozers." I didn't have enough. So I was like, "I know what I'm going to do.
(42:10) " I called schools. I called, I think it was the superintendent for the schools in that area. >> I said, >> "Do you have some yellow school buses I can borrow?" They said, "Yes, we do." >> And I said, "How many school buses can you give me?" So the district gave me all their yellow school buses. and I lined them up by the highway and by the tree line.
(42:30) So they did what? They blocked my line of sight. >> That's one. Two, they would deter for a blast. So if a blast came from the road, those school buses would absorb the impact of the the the blast. Now, if I had a second blast, it'd be some it might be a bit of an issue, right? Cuz you want to be able because you also have to do the math on how much of an explosive um and [snorts] how far can that explosive reach.
(42:53) You have to do blocks. There's so many things that come into effect. So I remember I lined the whole thing with yellow school buses. I just got them all. I had them lined up. I said, "Drop them off. I'll call you when I'm done." When we were done, I called them up. I said, "Come pick up your school buses." So when you do protection, you have to be very creative.
(43:12) You don't think like a protector. You think like the assassin. >> If I'm going to kill this person, how am I going to do it? And I think of all the ways I would kill the person. And then I work in reverse and I build my plan. The other thing is something very simple too, road closures, closing roads because I want to control what's in you create clean space which is space that's been cleaned that's secure.
(43:38) Um and then you lock it secure and then you keep everything dirty outside of it. So then you have magnetometers. U if people are coming to an event which is always a variable you want to try to control or not control. So there's so many layers you you you would do. Another thing we would do >> and I think this is okay like for big events like let's say the president's going to speak at a stadium with people.
(44:01) Um my concern would be not just explosives but chemical biological weapons, radiation. So we would have devices there that would assess whether there was any radioactivity, nuclear threats, bomb, that type of stuff, radioactive devices. You have to think constantly because the people that want to do this, that want to cause harm.
(44:27) And you know what, and it's funny, they probably don't think they're causing harm. They think they're doing something good in the world. >> Usually people that do this stuff think I'm I'm the good guy. And it's a, you know, >> yeah, >> they they they justify what they're doing, but you put all these mechanisms and layers in place to create a protective environment.
(44:46) So I'm I'm knocking one after another after another each threat. The other thing to think about, you probably wouldn't think about it, is fire, right? So it's fire not just for my person, but what about the people? How am I going to get them all out of there? >> How am I going to save all those thousands of people if there's an explosion? So, I would have to have medical teams on standby, not just for the person I'm protecting, but also for the crowd.
(45:10) So, there's so many things you have to think of and layers that you put into place to to offset and you have to think at the end of the day, I'm there to preserve human life. How do I do it? >> But how do you do that on a foreign land? >> You work with foreign countries. Like imagine one imagine a US president has to go give a speech in China or but let's say India or China.
(45:36) [sighs] How would >> I've been to Russia not with the president with um cuz we have other people we protect >> and it's a gamble because you have to trust that other foreign country. Um, so with Russia, I went to do to put the security plan in place for the secretary of the treasury to go because we protected also the secretary of the treasury.
(45:58) So I go, I put my nice plan in place. I'm working with the State Department. The Russians are going to do this. And then we show up. We roll up to the gates. Hi, I'm here with the Secretary of the Treasury. Now, I'm the agent in charge of the whole thing, right? And um, yes, come on in. as the gates open, my person goes in and the Russians close the gates on the rest of the team and they lock us out.
(46:19) And I am I am I don't want to say I'm losing my mind. I'm losing my mind on the inside because outside I'm keeping it together. And you know those are examples of where foreign countries will mess with you and they were absolutely messing with us. And it was really a terrible scenario to be put in because the tactical element which was our element was locked out and there was only a small uh contingency of protection with the person with the secretary of treasury. It was horrific.
(46:47) And then the Russians to mess with us further when it was time to be I couldn't get in by the way. I literally was at the gates fighting with the Russians. I couldn't get in. And I'm arguing with the State Department too because at the time I'm like where's your muscle? like how could you allow something like this to happen? And when they were done with the meeting, so they never let me in, they actually had my protectee leave through a different gate and then they gave them Russian uh security and left us somewhere else. It
(47:16) was horrific. So that stuff absolutely does happen. It is going overseas, especially with countries that either want to mess with you or are not friendly, you are at sometimes the mercy of that stuff. So you always want to be really careful. There were times where I would do protection plans in certain countries and even though they were friendly, they were really difficult to deal with and I would make calls and say you can't bring this person here.
(47:41) >> Like so but how the process goes let's say if one now you're the person you're trying to protect that person has to land in another country you go there in advance how many days >> so let's say he's going to the president's going to India right? >> Yeah. If I'm going to India, which is a big country, let's say he's going to M Mumbai, I'm going to send an agent uh and people out there probably a month in advance to work with the Mumbai police, with the federal police in India, with the military in India, whatever India is
(48:11) willing to give me, >> I'm going to work with them. Now, typically with India, there's high trust, right? Certain countries, there's more trust than with other countries. Um, and I'm going to work with those locals. At the same time, though, it's funny because you're doing the protection.
(48:25) At the same time, you always have to worry about espionage too with other countries. You want to disclose some of your security plan, but you can't disclose all of it because now a foreign country knows how you do protection. It's such a weird dance. >> So, you want to show and give, but at the same time, you don't want to show and give everything because then the, you know, because every country sends their their version of the CIA to watch and listen and be like, "Oh, this is how the Americans do it.
(48:50) " >> And sometimes they just want to copy what we do because we we do it well. Um, and sometimes they want to know because they're spying and they're collecting intelligence. It's it's it the country you go to m matters. Who you work with m matters. And also the the United States does typically a really good job of letting you know, hey, you're going to this country.
(49:11) They play nice or they don't play nice. These are the things to be aware of. Or, hey, this country has a police force that's going to work with you. Uh, but there's a lot of corruption with this police force. So, be very, very careful. There's high corruption in this police force. watch what you share. Um, you know, presume that they're selling this information to somebody else.
(49:29) So, it's it becomes very difficult. Foreign trips are typically massive massive headaches and then sometimes you go to countries that just want to mess with you cuz you're America and you know sometimes people have negative feelings towards America. But don't you think like countries like India or like any large country all around the world they would want to help you more like they would they would provide their best security best stuff to protect your president because if anything happens in that trip it's a bad reputation for the country. It's a bad
(49:59) spot on the country, right? >> No, no other country would want to mess because you don't want to mess with, forget messing. You don't want to mess with even a small country. You don't want to show the world that a president of another country came to your country and this is what happened. >> Yeah. Well, it depends on the country.
(50:16) If you go to Iran, it's a country, you know, >> you don't want to go there anymore because you're directly at war. or Afghanistan when we are at war they would actually sneak the president in >> because you can't trust sometimes some governments because there's so much cor there's high corruption or sometimes infighting sometimes you can't even trust governments because they themselves don't have a good handle on the country so keep that in mind not every country is India where there's some level of law and order and
(50:44) organization some countries are not they don't have that there's a lot of infighting there's civil unrest there's problems where people don't recogn recognize who's in charge. So keep that in mind. So what country am I going to? Is there a stable government? Is that a government I can work with? Does that government are friendly? And sometimes even friendly.
(51:04) So you said why would a maybe stable government or friendly not cooperate? I remember one country, I'm not going to say which one, it was Africa. I was in Africa and this one country where [snorts] um one of my protectes was going to go uh I was sent there a month out in advance to put a protection plan or security plan.
(51:23) And now typically we want to bring uh uh from the US weapons and cars. I want my stuff. I don't want your stuff. >> I don't I don't know how good your stuff is. >> Um I want my stuff. Um, but this country was giving me a very hard time saying you can only bring in instead of I'm making I'm going to make the numbers up. You can only bring in 10 guns, not 50 guns, right? And I'm like, well, I want 50 guns.
(51:47) What am I going to do with 10 guns? So, there's an argument there. And sometimes it would just be they're like, we'll have our people. And I'm like, I don't want your people. I want my people. So, that's where the issue would come in because in the US, United States, we train very differently. So there's some countries where you're like nice country but they're not capable of protecting or some countries will be like well we'll give you ballistic vehicles.
(52:10) No actually if you look at images of the president any president going anywhere in the world they are always in their cars. You never ever ever use that host country's cars. Look at any picture of any president of the United States. They are always in their cars. We fly the cars over. Why? >> Because I know my cars are good. Well, not my cars, the US Secret Services cars. I know my cars are good.
(52:34) I know they can withstand a certain amount of bullets, uh, a certain blast. I don't know what your cars are are like, what they're designed. Forget about even maybe there are bugs in there, meaning spy bugs to listening. Forget that. I know what my cars are capable of. Even magnetometers, the the magnetometers people were walk through in certain scenarios and events.
(52:55) I don't want your magnetometers. I want mine. I know what mine are capable of doing. I don't know what yours are capable of doing. And that's where trust comes in. You trust, but only so far. Conditional trust. I trust my stuff works and works well. Yours not so sure. And it's not a risk I'm willing to take. So sometimes people's feelings would get hurt in different countries.
(53:15) But you know, when you're dealing with life and death and you're dealing with the most targeted person in the world, it's like you can't negotiate certain things. But is it like full-time negotiation going on between two countries? >> Like when you want your person to visit there? >> Yes. You're always negotiating. You have to do a good job.
(53:35) Because the other thing is you could really ruin diplomatic relations. >> Why? How? >> Because if I'm not getting along with the government of that country, if they I get sent to India and let's say India is giving me a hard time, right? and but the president of the United States is going to India to speak uh with the heads of state to encourage trade or do something and let's say the the the relationship is a little rocky.
(53:58) If I come in and I create problems, it always goes to the top >> and so now I'm creating a hostile environment. I'm not I have to work well and work nice. You're you're a diplomat. I had a diplomatic passport. You're a diplomat. You represent your country. So one your behavior are you behaving yourself when you're in that country? Hey, you can't act stupid.
(54:19) >> Number one. Number two is, you know, your professionalism >> and what you do or say, you're representative of the US government. And you have to think about every time you open your mouth, am I representing this government well? Cuz the phone's going to ring and they're going to say, "What are you doing? We're going there to make nice and you're creating a hostile environment.
(54:38) " >> Although I I I'm gonna say this. um the United States overall and at least in my experience we were always when we would do it always very respectful and very good and we were told you play you play nice when you go overseas. It was usually the other way around. I know everybody thinks America's the aggressor but I will tell you from my experience we usually went in very much in good faith and it was usually sometimes maybe because of the reputation the US has the some countries would be very difficult to deal with. Some were just happy to
(55:08) have you and they were like, "We'll give you whatever you need." So, it just it just ran the gamut. >> But why I'm still not able to understand why they would not allow you 50 guns and only allow you 10 guns. Is there a reason or it's just a tactic that hey, we don't succumb to every demand that you have. >> So, it's a really good question and here's why. So, I'm going to flip it.
(55:29) Let's say a country is going to come to the US and they're like, "Hey, we want to come to the yes and we want to bring 50 of our personnel and they're going to bring 50 guns." >> The United States look at this looks at this and says, >> "Your guys are coming in with guns." I don't know what their training is.
(55:45) I don't know how with their tactical training, the laws here are different. Do I want that many guns in my country from a foreign country with foreign people? So, they do the same. Now, you can make the argument, I'm going to be American here. We're the United States. we have really good training. Um, you can trust us when we go to another country.
(56:04) But then when that country comes to the US and we're like, "Hey, I know you let us in with all these guns, but we're not going to let you in." So there's always like this barter system. Okay, if you let me in with 50 guns, I'll let you in with 40 guns. So a lot of times it's that >> it's just a power play.
(56:21) What I can hear, >> of course. Yes. >> Now, let's come to the cars. You you you were telling me about the car because you kept bringing again and again. It's very difficult to drive a ballistic vehicle. What is it? What's the difference between a normal car and the car for the most protected person in the world? >> Basically, what's the difference between a ballistic vehicle and a regular vehicle? Ballistic vehicles usually have layers uh that are put in them so that if there's gun like uh bullets hitting them that they're able to withstand the
(56:52) bullets. ballistic glass, glass that could withstand bullets. So, they're essentially bulletproof. Tires, right? Because maybe I don't shoot the the car, but I shoot the tires. So, you want to make sure tires have kevlar or something. Kevlar is like what bulletproof vests are actually made of. It's fabric. >> People think ballistic vests are made out of steel or metal or something.
(57:13) They're actually made out of fabric. >> Okay. >> Um, and that fabric when you put it layer upon layer, it it's it's it's very strong. So, but in Kevlar, though, here's what's interesting. In Kevlar, it can stop bullets. It can't stop a knife. So, you can actually shoot someone, it'll stop it, but if somebody goes to put a knife with certain ballistic vests, the knife will go through.
(57:34) >> Oh, >> yeah. So, there's different types of bulletproof vests. So, there's so so there there's different things. So, with the vehicles, they basically line them in such a way. They'll get the cars. In the United States, it's usually you'll see it's suburbans or Cadillacs, American cars.
(57:51) They get the vehicles and then the US Secret Service has their own team that will take the vehicles and put do things to the vehicles, shield the vehicle in such a way where it can withstand firepower where it can withstand explosives um or any other type of attack. That's how it's designed. And there's numerous cars.
(58:15) Now, when you do this though, the car becomes heavy. M. >> And so now you have to make sure too that the suspension of the car can hold all that weight. That's a whole other thing. >> Yeah. >> Because the chassis and suspensions of a car are designed to to hold 3,000 tons or 4,000 excuse me pounds or 4,000 lb, whatever it's designed to hold.
(58:37) When you add ballistic on top of it, the car gets heavier. So now you you may even have to change the framework of the car. So the car may sit lower. There's all these tactical things that go into place. So, you have to drive them a certain way. You have to be careful when you drive them.
(58:53) And again, because of the weight, when you speed with those cars, when you hit the brake, it slows down a lot slower. Uh, it's harder to slow down. It's kind of like driving a big truck. You know, when you see a a small car versus a big truck driving, if they're both going the same speed, the small car will stop faster.
(59:13) the bigger truck cuz it's carrying all that cargo. It's it's more dangerous. It's going to slop slower and then if it stops abruptly, the cargo can like literally break the metals and like come through. >> So you the the the ballistic vehicle is like that. So when you drive those cars, there's special training. They teach you to drive those cars.
(59:30) >> Is it slower? The car because of all this weight, the car can only go up to like 60 m hour of >> It's not slower. It's just you have to drive it differently and I can't say how fast it goes or not goes. >> Yeah. But then just the just the science like the the physics doesn't add up, right? Like it has to be slower because it's >> they make modifications to the car uh all sorts of modifications so that it can >> catch up to a certain speed.
(59:59) >> Yeah. So they modify not just the exterior of the car, everything so many things within the car itself. Another thing you used to do for the government was interrogation, right? How to interrogate in a nice way. >> So you have to be highly ethical when you do that stuff. You have to be highly ethical.
(1:00:22) So even with the polygraph, which is really polygraph's like a laptop, like that thing, it's a software system and then you could you connect components to people. Now, the polygraph's great, but if I'm not ethical, I can I can get you to fail it. >> Oh, >> yes. I can get you to fail it. Um, so you have to be very ethical and I I I because I was always um I understood the gravity of what we were doing and I never wanted to have like somebody else's life on my hands.
(1:00:52) Like I didn't want to be responsible for somebody spending the rest of their life in prison. I'm like, "No, thank you. I don't I need to sleep at night. It's not just for myself. >> Um, >> but you I I would always be very careful like there's a whole mathematical computation in how you do it. But I would always air I would give people more often the benefit of the doubt and it would be so so that if you failed my polygraph, you deserve to fail it.
(1:01:19) >> Where often I would get people inconclusive, which means they didn't pass it and fail and I would spend a lot more time. Um, but you might have some people go, "Nope, they failed clearly." And now, now the polygraph itself, if you fill a polygraph, you can't get, it's not admissible in court. The court doesn't care.
(1:01:36) At least here in the US, they don't care. But what they care about is what a person says. >> But where a polygraph would help is sometimes you would have people Raj who are very good liars, very good liars, and they would be like, "Nope, swear to God, never did this, blah blah blah blah." And there were times where even me, I'm like, man, I think I really want to believe this person.
(1:01:57) I really like him. I believe this guy. I want to believe in him. And I'm like, "All right, you know, let's just do the polygraph. Will be great." And I'm thinking, "Yeah, they're going to pass it." I hook them up and they fail that thing. And I'm like, and I remember one of the senior polygraph examiners, interviewers, interrogators, interrogators said to me, "Always trust your charts.
(1:02:17) Your charts are the data that you collect. the it it collects electrodermal activity, how much you sweat, it collects um the blood pressure, flow of blood in the body. Uh it collects a heart rate, it collects all sorts of stuff. So that data lets you know what's happening internally with that person. And if you feel threatened, your it's your autonomic nervous system. It it changes.
(1:02:41) So when you feel any kind of threat, your autonomic nervous system peaks to protect you. Let's say like you're walking crossing the street, a car goes to hit you. You do. Yeah. [gasps] >> Right. You you feel this influx of of adrenaline. Everything changes because your body is arming you to prepare you to fight, flight, or either get hit by the car.
(1:02:59) >> When you lie, it's the same thing. You fear getting caught in a lie. I want you to think about time you lied Raj and you're like man I hope I don't get caught >> or you got caught and think about the threat that you felt because getting caught in a lie it can be it can hurt your reputation it can hurt your business it can hurt your integrity can hurt that relationship with that person.
(1:03:23) >> Yeah. >> So getting caught in a lie causes a physical reaction. So the way the polygraph would work is you get asked a series of questions and the polygraph looks at how your autonomic nervous system things you can't control like you can't control how much you sweat you can't control your heart rate you can't control your blood flow you can't control these things um how they react to certain questions now you might say to me yeah but Evie I'm taking a polygraph I'm nervous of course >> I'm going to be freaked out during this
(1:03:51) whole thing right you're freaked out during the whole thing so that means every question I ask you, you're freaked out. So, your norm or your baseline >> is freaked out. >> It's freaked out all the time. >> But I'm looking for when I get to that one question, you extra freak out. >> And I'm like, wait a minute.
(1:04:10) I know he's freaked out the whole way here, >> but why when I ask this one question >> about let's say it's a it's a hiring polygraph. Raj, have you ever done drugs? I ask him this question all the way to the top. We got an extra freak out here. Why? That lets me know Raj has a problem with this question. Now, maybe the problem is >> Raj did a lot of drugs.
(1:04:33) Or maybe the problem is Raj didn't do a lot of drugs. Maybe Raj's parent did a lot of drugs or he has a friend who did a lot of drugs or sold drugs. And when he hears this question, it causes him to react. My job as a good examiner is to sit down and be like, Raj, talk to me. Talk to me about this question.
(1:04:52) And now I need to figure out what it is. That's how it works. But you don't control these things. >> So even how much you sweat, when you're feel threatened, you sweat more. Do you know why we sweat more when we feel threatened? >> No. >> Because your body is is creating um sweat so that when it thinks it's being attacked, so it's helping you prepare to fight.
(1:05:15) Well, when you grab a sweaty person, can you hold on to them? Slip. >> Slips. >> Your body Your body's smart. Your body's smart. So your body's getting prepared. Like so when they grab you, >> they can't hold on to you. >> It's evolutionary. >> The body is amazing. >> That's why sometimes people like, "Oh, I have anxiety. I have panics.
(1:05:32) " I'm like, "That's good stuff to have. Don't make it all go away cuz your body's protecting you." Being anxious or worrying, those are good. One, they're good qualities to have as a human being because it means you care cuz people who don't care don't have those reactions. And two, your body is arming you to protect you from whatever is happening to you in that moment.
(1:05:52) But can you catch someone [clears throat] like can you catch a lie without the polygraph test without something like can can if you and I are talking can you spot out like if I'm lying or no? >> Yes. If I want to Yes. >> Okay. How how to catch a lie? >> It depends on the person. So let's just use your example.
(1:06:12) You have a a baseline right of how you are. So you're for example like I'll give you an example. When you speak your tone is always the same. >> Yeah. >> You have a soft tone. You have a certain tone. But if I start talking to you, let's say I ask you a question about something maybe with your family and it's a very sensitive issue.
(1:06:29) If I hear a shift in your tone, I'm going to be like, "Oh, Raj has always been talking this way the whole time. Why the shift in tone? Why did he just peak or why did his voice just crack?" Or this whole conversation, Raj is answering questions. And the minute I asked him about his parents, he did this [clears throat] before he answered.
(1:06:48) He never did it before. If all I do in that moment is I ask myself, why did he just do that? >> So the the key here is when you do that, then I have to pay attention that you did that and I have to now ask you more questions about your parents. And maybe there's nothing. Maybe there's something.
(1:07:07) Most people let that stuff go. And that's the problem. So here's the thing. If I'm interviewing the whole time and the whole time we're talking you're doing uh uh uh then I'm like that's what Raj does. He's got something in his throat. He needs water. That's how you detect lies. I think what where people get uh stuck is they think everybody who's going to lie is going to scratch their nose.
(1:07:28) Like I hear crazy stuff like that all the time. >> Now look, if the whole time I'm talking to you, you're sitting like this, which you've been, you've have your pen in your hand, you have your arm crossed, >> and I ask you something very personal that you don't want to answer. And it could be either it's just personal, you don't want to answer it, or it's a secret, or there there's something that makes you uncomfortable, you want to lie.
(1:07:51) If all of a sudden you do this, I'm going to notice it cuz I'm going to say, "He didn't do it before. Why is he doing it now?" That's how it works. >> One part of your job was catching the lie. The other part was you've been a spy. You've been somebody who has lied to people, right? The Russian story I was listening like you lured a specific Russian.
(1:08:10) Was that your story? Remember? >> Oh, the Russians. >> Yeah. Like you were >> Which one? >> That's the one story I was reading that >> Oh, when I would do undercover work. >> Yes. You do undercover work. So you would you would live to lie, right? You would do undercover. Undercover is kind of being [clears throat] mixing up with people trying to do the espionage work. Yes.
(1:08:27) >> Being the spy. So you did that. So you lied for a living. >> I did. I did. I'm sorry. I did. [laughter] But for >> your whole identity was lie. You would become someone else. >> Yes. >> How to become a good liar. >> Well, when I did undercover work, one of the things that helped me is because I did not look like an agent.
(1:08:47) So I felt very safe. >> I felt very safe and comfortable and maybe confident because I did not think anybody would suspect me of anything. So that was a big thing. If you feel safe, you're not as nervous and scared. I remember once I pretended to be somebody who was being sex trafficked and I had to pretend to be from another country.
(1:09:08) >> Tell me about the story. Where was it? >> This was here actually in New York and it was with an organized crime ring. >> Mhm. And sadly in New York there's a lot of sex trafficking. Different countries uh do it. I had to pretend to be a girl girl from I think it was in I pretended to be from like the Eastern block Europe over there.
(1:09:28) So I had to adopt an accent so I could sound like that. >> And um >> what I was doing I was trying to infiltrate an organized crime ring that was selling passports uh real documents, real birth certificates, passports, originals uh to terrorists. this is actually really the case. So, you've got two crimes happening at the same time.
(1:09:49) But in this scenario, uh I needed to catch this organized crime ring that was selling legitimate documents to people in the US who wanted to commit crime by proxy though to everybody else, other other crime rings, other different things. So, I came in as a person who's being sex trafficked and I said, "Look, I'm here. They took my documents.
(1:10:09) I want to get a cell phone." You know, I would I would lie. Like, you can't do if once they take your documents here, you can't do anything. You can't even get a phone cuz they're going to ask you for ID. I don't have no ID. They took it all. I can't do anything. That's why it's really horrible what they do to these young girls. Um they them completely.
(1:10:25) And they are absolutely dependent on their the people that have brought them here and they can't get out of it. And they'll tell you, oh, you'll work it off, you'll get it back or they'll give you some money and then you go back to your host country if they let you leave. So in this scenario, I was trying to catch someone who was selling these documents.
(1:10:43) So I pretended to be sex trafficked so he could believe me. But I was really we were really looking at him. I wasn't looking at him. It wasn't my case. They were really looking at him as someone who was selling these documents all over the place uh to people. So I had to make deals with him. >> So I bought documents from him, gave him cash.
(1:11:03) He gave me documents, fake documents, fake name, fake this, but real passports and stuff. And then my job was to bring other girls to him to get paperwork. >> So that was an undercover that I did. And that was Albanian Russian. I This is But but it was an organized crime ring. I want to say he was Albanian. Um and I I did that one out of Brooklyn.
(1:11:23) So what I had to do here is because he was so hard to catch, I had to do numerous transactions. And it was me and we had some other girls who were they're not girls, they were law enforcement like me >> who didn't look it. We gathered enough on him and then the case agent took it to what's called a grand jury here in the US and they showed all the evidence and then said here they did this in secret because you don't want the guy to know that you're doing this cuz he's going to flee.
(1:11:48) >> They did this in secret and said look at everything all these transactions we've done. They're undercover. >> Can you give us a >> a warrant? A technically it's not a warrant. They give you an indictment. They indict the person which is sort of like saying yes, go arrest him. So, they give you that and when you get an indictment, it's locked in and you go get the person.
(1:12:08) The problem with arresting someone on the fly is if you don't have enough, then the prosecutors can say, "I don't have enough." You have to let them go. >> So, that's why you want to collect as much as you can. That way, it's locked tight. And when you take it to a grand jury and you get an indictment, you're pretty solid.
(1:12:24) That means you've worked with the prosecutors to say, "Yeah, yeah, you get me this, you got me this stuff, we're going to give you an indictment. Go get the person." So that's what the sex trafficking and it's sad because you would think New York City, right? NYPD, America, why do we have sex trafficking? And yet we do because people take advantage of the visa system.
(1:12:43) They take advantage of like how people come in. They take they take advantage, you know. So it's America is amazed and you allow for all these things. But when you allow for all these things, there's a there's a group of people that will abuse these systems. But were you able to catch the guy? >> They caught the guy? Yes, they caught the guy.
(1:13:06) I didn't uh cuz I was the undercover, but they did catch the guy. >> Yes. >> You've interrogated one of the top dreaded criminals in the world. You understand interrogation very well. You've extracted information out of people which has helped protect your country. You're one of the top experts in the world right now. Right.
(1:13:27) I want to understand if you would have gotten in the room with few people in the world how would you have interrogated them to extract certain information out of them so I'm going to bring one by one okay one is the highly spoken controversial man right now >> Epstein >> Jeffrey Epstein if you were to interrogate him how would you do that >> so you're looking at someone very wealthy knows everybody.
(1:13:57) I mean, this guy knew presidents from all sorts of countries, princes. Um, so you're going to deal with somebody what very confident, probably very narcissistic, and he's probably extremely narcissistic and arrogant because to do the stuff he did, right? He's thinking I'm untouchable. So, you're going to have that person in the room with him.
(1:14:17) You would need days with him. So, I'd say 5 days. I'd ask to sit and talk to him for 5 days if he's willing to meet with me. And let's say he is. The first few days I would talk about anything but the case. Tell me about yourself. How'd you grow up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I get you food? Do you need anything? How is it in here? I would just talk.
(1:14:37) I just want this guy talking. >> Is this guy cuz he's not going to be talking. >> This guy's smart. He's smart. He's not going to talk. So, I just want him talking. I need to build trust and build rapport. Here's the thing. When you're in law enforcement, remember how before we were talking about everybody hates police? >> Yeah.
(1:14:54) What kind of trust do you think you're going to have? Not zero, less than zero. So, I need to build trust with this guy. And maybe I just talk to him about anything and everything because I'm not expecting a confession from him, but what I would like to get from him is some information. I want to know how he did it. Maybe I want to know who was involved. I've already got him.
(1:15:14) So, I don't need the confession from Epstein because I actually have enough to convict him, right? But what I want from him if I I want to know who he played with, who was on his island, how did he get the girls, what did he do? I want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes.
(1:15:30) I want to know how big this thing goes. That's what I would want to know. You already got this guy. So, if you've got a Loctite case on him, it's like, talk to me about everybody else. That's what I want. And he might give you other people, >> right? >> To help himself. Maybe he gets uh not such a bad prison. Maybe he maybe he gets a slight slightly better deal.
(1:15:50) Again, it depends what you're charging him with. So, that's that's what you would do with this guy. So, him you're going to I would want to know who who his uh circle of people are, who he brought to the island, who did what, who did this, cuz I thought I can get more people and I can get these people because think about one of the issues with the Jeffrey Epstein case that people are very upset about and angry about is they want to know who else.
(1:16:12) He's gone. He's done. But it didn't die with them because they're like, "Wait, all these other people were committing all these crimes with him and they're influential people. They're powerful people. Who are they?" They want names. I wouldn't want names. That's Jeffrey. That he might give me >> if you if it helps. Yeah.
(1:16:33) If I build enough trust and I'm like, "Hey, Jeffrey, if you give me names, let me see what I can do. I'll talk to the >> But what would you have to made him believe for him to cooperate with other names?" that it's to his benefit that something positive for him can come come of it. >> Like you can tell that this is for because he know that he's going out.
(1:16:52) He's going in and he's never coming out. So you already know no amount of deal is >> cuz I don't know what they were to charge them yet. I mean I don't know like >> but with what we know of >> what we know >> he's never coming out like if he was a [snorts] person >> but you can make his stay a little bit better.
(1:17:10) It's also what kind of prison or jail is it going to be put in, right? Maybe it can be a a prison that's not so prisony, you know, that there's different types. So maybe you make his life a little bit easier. >> What type of prisons are there if you >> there? So there's jails, there's there's prisons, there's some uh prisons that are um and not maximum security, but minimum security, so it's a little bit easier.
(1:17:32) You have more movement, right? So there's there's different places they can house them in. So maybe you tell them, "Look, I'll put you in this minimum security prison. It's a better life style. Your food's better." Like when you're when you're locked up, little things make a difference cuz you have nothing. >> Fair, >> right? Or maybe he cares about something or someone in his life and you're like, "Hey, I'll make sure this person's >> is saved.
(1:17:53) " >> Yeah. Or taken care of or something. So there's there's things you can pull at if he has something he cares about. >> Got it. What would you do with him? How would you interrogate him? Because these are going to be two different people. >> So, he's You know what's interesting? This guy, this guy's more lethal than this guy.
(1:18:18) This guy's probably a little bit of a coward. And here's why. Who did he prey upon? >> Young women. Yeah. This guy's weak because you could tell cuz who he prayed upon. This guy's This guy's nothing. This guy might even cry in the room. This guy know cuz who did he deal with? Other drug dealers, right? Other dealers.
(1:18:45) He's moving stuff. He's lethal. Guns, weapons. This guy's really serious. So, another one that might not talk to you. Another one that might actually choke you out in the room. So, I'd want to make sure I'm safe. Number one. Um, with him, I would want to know about his network. Same thing. I already got you. I want to know about your network.
(1:19:02) Now, him, if he has family that he cares about, um, that's where you're going to get him. His family, his loved ones, making sure they're taken care of and safe. So, you might get him. You know what's interesting with with someone like this? It's like they have family they care about. Um, they give money back to society or the poor.
(1:19:20) They do other things. So, it's it's like a weird dichotomy. I'm dealing drugs. I'm doing this and I'm killing people with my drugs and I'll kill you. But at the same time, I take care of my community. I have my faith. So, it's almost like this, it's almost like this dual person that you're dealing with. So, I with him, I would approach the good part of him, not the drug dealer part.
(1:19:39) So, it's called chasing the good. I would chase the good part of him. You're a good man. You have a family. You care about you try to do the right thing by people. You help the community. You donate money. You care. You know, you're you're you're that's what you're going to focus on with him.
(1:19:55) I want the good part of Pablo, not the bad part of Pablo. So, same thing. Someone like this high level uh criminal, you need a few days with him. >> You're not going to get anything in a couple hours. >> And you're only going to talk about the good things so that he starts believing in it that you also believe him. >> Cuz if I cha it's chasing the good.
(1:20:12) If I talk to you and I pull out the good part of Raj, the good part of Raj is going to show up. If I sit and tell Raj what a terrible person he is and all the bad things he's done, what part of Raj am I going to pull out? The bad part of Raj. And the bad part of Raj is going to show up.
(1:20:28) And even if I'm right, you're going to have something called reactants. You're going to be defensive. You're going to you're going to fight me even if I'm right because I'm I'm hurting you. I'm I'm I'm not I'm knocking you down. So you have to like preserve people's dignity. Mhm. >> So with him, also a very smart person, a business woman, a business, excuse me, a business person.
(1:20:49) So you want to talk to him a certain way and treat me with respect. This guy's going to be big on respect, by the way. >> So you have to show him respect in the room, >> because he's always been treated with respect. >> Exactly. >> He wouldn't like it if you show him his place. >> Oh, and he's going to look at me like I'm nothing. I'm Pablo Escobar.
(1:21:06) Who are you? Some stupid little secret service agent. What do you think you're going to get out of me? So maybe in some ways like he'd underestimate me. Also, I'm a woman. He might look at me like, "Oh, what's she going to do?" So he might just talk to me about whatever. Talk to me about whatever.
(1:21:20) I don't care as long as he's talking. >> H because he would not talk at first place at all because his ego won't allow to talk to you. >> I think some these pe someone like this is smart. It's smart unless he gets something out of it. And again, unless let's let's say you have his family, you repented his family, a spouse or children or anything.
(1:21:39) You're like, "Hey, I'll make sure they're taken care of if you do this." >> Well, what are you trying to get out of him because you've caught on his network? You've got on every >> No, I got him. I don't have his whole network. >> Yeah, but but you caught him because >> But maybe I want to get the number two Escobar, the number three Escobar, so nobody else jumps in.
(1:21:56) All these guys move. I want to run it bring the system down. Maybe he can tell me about the other dealers, the other cartels. >> There's always something to learn. That's that's why you do interviews. Usually at this point when you have someone like this and this, you don't need the confession. >> Mhm. >> A confession is nice, but most of the time you if something like this, you don't need it.
(1:22:19) Cuz if you're going after somebody like this, you've got you've got enough to lock him away. You don't want to mess around. >> Yeah. >> So that's what I would do. >> Mess around. Let's say you lock him up. >> You arrest him and then you you have to let him go. You want to make sure that when you arrest somebody that you don't have to let them go and that's that you've got and the charges and and the proof that you have is tight enough to hold them.
(1:22:41) That's one of the worst things that can happen when you arrest someone and this was with my cases too. When I would uh work a case, I always would go to the US attorney's office. That's how it works here, which is a person who would prosecute and I'd say, "I'm investigating Pablo. Uh this is what I have. Can we get him?" And most often they'd say, "We can get them, but I don't know if I can hold them.
(1:23:01) What I need you to do is go get me this, this, this, and this. You get me this. We got a Loctite case." And so you would go out and try to get the different things. So like when I worked undercover, part of the reason I was doing the undercover stuff or I was asked to do it is they didn't have enough. M >> you want enough evidence on someone that you've got them so that if they have a really good attorney or they try to argue that they can't get out of it that you want to make sure you get a guilty verdict if they go to trial cuz all this
(1:23:29) is for nothing if the guy's found not guilty. >> Fair. Let me change again a little bit. These two are different and this is how would you interrogate him because he's not like any of them? No, >> with Ted Bundy, I would kind of talk to him about his life and his childhood. >> You know what he >> What are you trying to get out of him? >> I want first I just want to talk it's always like these guys are like all heavy hitters.
(1:24:00) So you don't need these are all full day like multiple day interviews. Just let's be clear. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> These guys are multiple day interviewers. With him, you know what's interesting with him? You might want to understand why he did it. uh because there's no other network of people with him. These guys are different. Here's a he's a sole actor.
(1:24:18) So with him it would be like can you get the confession? I think it also with him more would be like what's going on up here cuz it's a very unique situation with how he was uh targeting people, luring them in, killing people. You want to understand he's more of understanding human behavior. This is kind of like serial killer type of psychology.
(1:24:42) And what prompts someone to get to this point? So, this would be more of a psychoanalysis. This actually wouldn't be hard because again, assuming I don't need a confession. >> If I need a confession, it it's tough >> because now I'm trying to get you to confess and I'm getting you to confess and getting you to confess. >> But with him, this would be more of a why why did you do what you did? Why did you target people? And can you prevent behavior like this in the future? Like what? Let someone like this doesn't get there overnight. You don't become a
(1:25:10) serial killer overnight. I remember once you asked me before about polygraphs when I would do applicants. I remember I had one applicant who was wanted to be a secret service agent and he told me when he was growing up he would burn cats like he would set cats on fire. So I was like, "All right, tell me how many cats.
(1:25:31) " And I always started high, >> a thousand, you know, 900. I mean, I gave some crazy numbers in case it was 1,000 or 900. So I think it was like, he's like, "Oh, maybe I've burned like about 100 cats growing up." And I was like, "Tell me about why you would burn them." >> Now, why do I care about him burning cats? I mean, it's wrong to hurt animals, but if you're burning cats, what's next? Do you see? You start off maybe with kicking the cat, maybe declawing it, pulling it, hitting it.
(1:25:59) Then you burn it a little bit. You burn it a little bit more. Then I'm going to burn another cat, another cat. That's how these guys serial killers go. Next, and then next. Everything's a slippery slope in life, Raj. If you don't keep yourself in check, you can make anything okay. Anything you want, okay? If you want to. So, he didn't become Ted Bundy overnight.
(1:26:21) Things happened to him over a period of time. He did this and then this and then this and then this then you get to this place. So I would want to understand him. >> But then see with with these two guys you're for him you're trying to understand who else is involved with him you're trying to understand how the cartel operates and what is the how with >> I want to know how the cartel does in the operations right their tunnels how they bring the drugs over.
(1:26:44) I mean these guys some of the they use submarines they buy submarines. It's ingenious. They have tactical gear. They have military grade gear. Who gave you the gear? Is it the government? Cuz there's there's times where I would go work in Central or South America and with some countries, they were like, "Be careful." Cuz a lot of the the police were in uh worked with the cartels.
(1:27:07) So, I had to be really careful. >> So, yeah. So, with these guys, you we know what you're trying to get out of them. With him, why do you want to know about the childhood? What what will be the outcome if you get to know? you prevent people like this from coming into the world and then you know because you're getting >> can you stop at certain point in childhood where things >> are there things you can do are there signs you can see in other people right think of mass shootings we have them here in the US or random shootings or
(1:27:32) right so what are some of the indicators to prevent that so this is more of like understanding the human mind the psychology of it that's really what you would get from this person here um and you'd want to know how'd you lure them but lure people in or get people in He he it was very kind of simple what he did.
(1:27:51) So there's no other intricate thing. He would be more of understanding him and and how people like him think and behave. Look, it helps you. I do the news and whenever an incident happens often I'll be on air with someone. Oh, another crazy person did this. And I always think to myself, when you label somebody crazy, how does that help? How can you prevent stuff from like this happening? If everybody's crazy, then there's nothing to do.
(1:28:17) We just label everybody crazy. But when you try to understand the human mind, >> what breaks people or causes people to get to this point, can you prevent it? Because crime's not going to stop, Raj. But what can you do to minimize this stuff? Otherwise, we should just let everybody do whatever and then all we do is punish people.
(1:28:35) You want to be preemptive. So, it's not just about being reactive. You commit a crime, you throw handcuffs on a person, this and that. Are there things we can do to stop? So like the US Secret Service, they have the National Threat Assessment Center where they try to assess and they've actually worked with the Department of Education in the past, which is the school system here, to try to help them identify a school shooter before they do it.
(1:29:00) >> They looked at characteristics. So if you can figure out what characteristics exist between the Ted Bundy's of the world or serial killers or people do this stuff, you can help maybe minimize or prevent it or teach uh schools or systems or workplaces or police to look for signals that maybe you can catch this stuff before it gets bad.
(1:29:21) >> What signals did you read? Like what signals were did they find out in guys who would turn into a mass shooter? >> Mass shooters. So there's a couple of things that you would see. Um, one of them, >> are there signs in a child that you can tell that this person's might become psychopath? >> It's it's it's behavior stuff.
(1:29:39) So, so a couple of patterns you would see. One was people who committed mass shootings tend to have something happen to them like a a life change or maybe a breakup with a girlfriend or a partner or a spouse, something happened there. That's one. So, you would see that. You would also see um they had access to weapons.
(1:29:58) So they were able to either there was a weapon in the home and they they they knew someone who gave them the weapon. There certain attributes. They typically communicated to someone at some point. So at some point they've told somebody I'm going to do this whether in joke or not.
(1:30:15) Um so that's another thing that they would look at. This the all these little things help school spot the person in advance because the point is >> but these are such normal things, right? Like I'm not talking about access to weapon but having a breakup or telling your friends that I would do some >> but not everybody not everybody has the same internal fortitude that you have not everybody's stable people there's people who are of weak mind and body >> I understand that but how can you identify this as a pattern because >> you can see 100 people going through
(1:30:48) breakup and 100 people joking about hey you know what I'm going to kill that person and like >> sometime Sometimes it could be just jokes and randomly people talking about it, >> right? But the point is to pay attention and maybe to ask that student, hey, come into the office, let me talk to you. Or if that person works for you, hey, come on here so that you at least notify, you can notify somebody. That's the thing.
(1:31:09) >> Maybe you can notify, maybe you can see that off behavior and you can tell somebody. Um, and sometimes police can't do anything. That that's another problem. Like sometimes people also sometimes if it's an adult with mass shooters, you may see that they've been uh uh interviewed by law enforcement before at some point.
(1:31:29) That's also another uh possibility. So with that, it just helps show certain indicators that you'll see amongst these people. >> It it they're not easy things to spot. No, but often too they're planning them. So who did they share the plans with? if they live with someone in the house, uh, a person in the home maybe can notice the behavior and say something.
(1:31:52) >> Most often, the problem with these mass shootings is people don't notify anybody or they don't notify, hey, you know, uh, I live with my with Ted. Ted's been acting a little weird lately. Can I talk to someone about it? And until it's too late, maybe at least if you put Ted on the radar and people are looking into Ted, maybe they can do something to intercept Ted's behavior so people don't die.
(1:32:19) >> It might stop at one or two and not extend to like hundreds. >> Exactly. So you're looking at Ted and Ted's fine, but I want to make sure Ted doesn't kill other people. >> What can I do to stop Ted from taking lives? You're really just trying to preserve human life at the end. So, if I can intercept it, get this mass shooter some help. Right.
(1:32:39) Ted's not a mass shooter, but if I can get the mass shooter some help, I can prevent it. >> True. Here's the last person that I want to understand about this one's close to you. >> Huh? Osama bin Laden. >> How would you interrogate him and what will you try to find out from him? >> So, I've interviewed terrorists before. Um, the one thing with Osama, you're going to spend days.
(1:33:04) Osama is going to love talking about himself and his cause and uh his organization. So, you're going to have uh one of the reasons they think he did what he did was for significance cuz he came from a big family and I think he was kind of overlooked by some of his family members. So, he wanted to stand out.
(1:33:23) He was there was there's theories that he was an insecure individual and so this is why he did what he did. So with him, you would want to you would want to tap into that. You know, tell me about what you did. Tell me about why you're doing this. He's going to want to profess to you, I did this for the greater good. He he thinks 9/11 was a good thing. Yes. Yes.
(1:33:43) >> Yeah. That's what he believes in. Yeah. >> Tell me why you believe that. Tell me why you feel wrong. He wants a platform to to profess. Give it to him. Sure, I'll listen. And what will you achieve out of that when you give him a platform and in an interrogation you know he's going to say the same five things which he's been saying in the world what are you going to achieve out of this? >> So when people talk Raj they leak information.
(1:34:10) So when they're talking even though they think they're not saying anything they're saying something. >> So what are you looking for? >> I'm looking for names. I'm looking for places. I'm looking for locations. I'm looking to who they're talking to. I'm looking for dates of when he was where and he might think I'm not.
(1:34:26) This is stupid stuff I'll tell her. But maybe I have intelligence on something else and I want to corroborate dates and times. Maybe I can link other attacks to him. Maybe I can figure out where he's getting his guns from. Maybe I can figure out who's next in command after him. Maybe I can figure out who he's working with.
(1:34:41) Maybe I can figure out how big his network is and what other countries it spans into. Maybe I can figure out where his money is come coming from. Who's giving him money? He needs money to do this. Where are you getting your money from? So I I want to understand terrorism. This is terrorism. >> And that you can achieve when you give him a platform to understand his cause.
(1:35:00) >> I'm his platform. Tell me tell me more. Really? >> I make him believe that you understand the cause. That's how >> I do understand the cause. I don't agree with the cause. I accept it. See, here's the deal. >> But you're going to make him believe that you are understanding the cause and you are trying to understand more so that he starts believing you more and start talking.
(1:35:16) >> But I want information. And all these people more or less are giving me information either to prevent something happening in the future so we can take the stuff. You have to learn from the people you arrest. >> You have to learn from criminals there. None of these people are stupid. Do do you agree with me on that? >> Yeah.
(1:35:33) >> They're all smart people. They all figured out ways to circumvent things. I want to know. Do you know many times I would arrest someone and I'm like, how did they pull this off? Especially fraud. There were some people that would run these really intelligent scams and I'm thinking, "How did this guy pull this off?" And I'd sit in the room and I I would be like, "I have to tell you.
(1:35:50) I worked a lot of criminal cases. I'm impressed. How did you do it?" And sometimes just that alone would be like, "Oh, let me tell you." Cuz all these dudes are narcissists. >> Oh, so the moment you tell them that you're impressed and you actually >> I'm impressed. Yeah. Some Some, not all, but some of I'm like I'm impressed.
(1:36:07) I How did you do this? Oh, let me tell you how I did it. >> Please tell me. >> They get excited. Some do. >> That's a trick that you guys will put off. >> It's not I don't know if it's a trick. It's true. I'm impressed. I don't know how you did this. I would have never seen this coming. Would you ever seen like the idea of somebody flying two flying commercial planes into the buildings? And where would you see that? Like the imagination that that took to create? Who thinks to do that? Who thinks to do that? This guy. And then
(1:36:36) what other what other plans does he have in place? cuz you're assuming just because I caught him that there's nothing else going down, right? Who are the assets? Does he have spies? Does he have people talking to other people? I I want to know. So, everything's going to lead to somewhere if you take the time to talk.
(1:36:57) I'll say this one mistake that sometimes investigators do, police do. They think, "I got my guy. I'm going to tell you what a piece of garbage you are, and I'm going to put you through the system, but I got my guy. you don't know what other victims this guy has. >> Uh I would especially see this with uh child abuse cases or child sexual abuse cases or predators like guys like this.
(1:37:21) >> Let's say I got Jeffrey and I I know he victimized one girl, but there's probably with with child victims, there's another 200 girls usually with these guys. But what police do is like, "Oh, I caught the guy that did this to this person. You How do you know there's no other victims? I want to catch the other victims that this person's had and then link them to him.
(1:37:44) So, people who commit crime don't often commit one crime. They have multiple victims. There's multiple plans. There's multiple attacks they're doing. >> Who would be the easiest to talk to and the toughest to talk to? [sighs] >> Him. I could talk to him. I could talk to He might be tough cuz he's a dealer, a drug dealer. cartels.
(1:38:06) I mean, they're Osama might not be tough. He might, it might be. He might be tough for me because I'm a woman and I'm white. So, I'm like the lowest of the low for him, which is why I learned Arabic because I did interviews overseas. So, I knew I was going in at a deficit. I'm a woman. I'm white. I'm I'm Christian. I'm American.
(1:38:25) I mean, I've got nothing going for me. Less than zero. Um, so often I would actually go with a male partner. And even if my male partner was junior to me, I would let my male partner partner lead and I would be in behind. But I learned Arabic because I'm like, I have to find things ways to connect with this person.
(1:38:45) And so over time, it almost would happen all the time. I would they would start looking at me instead of my partner and I would start talking and I would throw in some Arabic and they're like, "Oh, she speaks some." And I would listen and I would just have conversations. You know what I didn't do? I never brought up 9/11. I never said, "Hey, you know those two big buildings you knocked down? I was in them." I never said that.
(1:39:04) I mean, excuse me, I was there. I never said that because who did I make that interview about when I did that? >> He doesn't need to know. >> I would never tell him >> cuz now it's personal. >> And that would be your mistake. >> My goal is where's the next next attack coming from? >> Yeah. So, okay, just last two questions on this.
(1:39:26) The one is who would be the toughest to talk to would be you think >> I think he might be the toughest for me >> because I'm a a white female blonde. Maybe maybe people surprise you. >> Yeah. >> You don't know who people are. You don't know what's going on. But I think he might be the toughest. >> And >> cuz you know what too? He's willing to die for what he believes in.
(1:39:47) He's willing to die because that's what this is premise on death. I will die for my cause. This is a deep deep ideology, a deep belief. This was for himself, right? This is he's abusing girls, he's dealing drugs, he's making money, right? This guy's just got psychopath, right? Issues. >> No one's willing to die for >> this guy's willing to die for what he believes in. This is a deep faith.
(1:40:14) This is harder. >> And what one mistake you could make with each one of them? one one mistake an interrogator could make which will just blow up the entire interrogation. >> You say something that isn't true. You make an assumption >> like you you said with him the moment you tell him something personal that you were there in the building it would just blow it up everything because you you've made it personal made >> I would never bring up 9/11 my personal experience never. Never.
(1:40:41) >> Yeah. So that's the biggest mistake you can make with them. Guys, what would be the mistake an interrogator could could make which will blow up the entire interrogation? >> The one thing you don't want to do. It's like how could you do this? I started making them feel like if you're like I can't believe you.
(1:40:59) You sexually assaulted all those girls. You abused. You brought these girls. Who does that? What kind of sick person are you? It's just game over. You have to leave your ego out of the room. And sometimes people can't. And like no matter what he tells you, you have to accept it. You're not agreeing. I'm accepting. And you also have to not show it in your face.
(1:41:21) If you show disgust in your face, Raj, he's not going to talk to you. He's going to filter what he says. He's going to stop talking alto together. Your goal is to get information. Your goal is not to be the judge and jury. The goal is to be a neutral slate that they can each talk to. You have to bring the version of you that they need to open up and for you to get information. It is not about you.
(1:41:41) Most often people bring themselves and you should not bring yourself. >> I don't matter. The victims matter. So I need to find out what he was doing and how he did it. I also need to find out who else parttook in this because there has to be justice because it's the right thing to those victims.
(1:41:59) And you also want to make sure other you're assuming he's the only guy that's doing this. How do you know? How do you know there's not another guy that's doing this and he knows about them? I want to know. >> I want to know who else they're talking to. You get enough people, they get if you know how to talk to people and they start to talk about other people, it's like give me information. Uh talk talk.
(1:42:20) Which is ironic. I hate to talk. I do it for a podcast, but in real life, I don't like to talk. >> I like to be quiet and listen. You learn more. You learn more. So with all these people, the biggest mistake you can do is judge them and show it in your face. and anything in life when you when people feel judged and it can be hard especially in personal relationships where you want to look at someone and be like what the are you thinking what are you doing are you crazy but the minute you do that you lose them it's
(1:42:50) hard >> true >> it's hard I think personal relationships are harder these guys not so much cuz I can detach >> you know you while we were doing the briefing you said something very interesting you said it's the worst time to be a world leader >> why >> I I think so. Here's the thing. When you meant two things.
(1:43:10) When you meant to harm a world leader, like for example, the president of the United States, if you went to harm him or you wanted to voice harm, there's only a couple of ways you could do it. You could you had to physically show up somewhere to harm him. Um you would have to write a letter. >> Mhm. >> Cuz people write letters.
(1:43:27) Um or you would have to phone it in. And so that level of contagion of hate was kind of isolated. So now you move to social media where everybody has a voice. Everybody and anybody have a voice. You've given everybody a megaphone. And I do think not everybody I think we've shown as humanity like we're not responsible and accountable enough uh to have this.
(1:43:50) And I mean this across the board even some politicians I read things I'm like why are you you're you're a leader. Why would you write such a thing? And this is across the board. Um this is one side versus another. It's very sometimes disappointing when I see the things people write. So, but what happens is, think of it this way. You're in a mob.
(1:44:08) It's a mob, but it's an online mob. And so, when you see hate here, hate here, hate here, narratives, it it's infectious. And so, people now jump on this bandwagon. Half the time they don't know what they're reading is true. And even having worked in government, I can't tell you how many times it would either be people would come to me with their conspiracy theories or theories or tell me things that I knew factually were not true.
(1:44:33) Sometimes I couldn't say anything and I'm thinking, "Wow, they just they they whatever they read they think is true." And so hate is infectious. So if you keep reading like this world leader is horrible, that world leader is horrible, this is happening and and and people just write whatever then it it does not just create more hate.
(1:44:56) What it does is people think that this world leader, this person's a horrible person and the world would be better if I got rid of them. And so now they think that what they're doing or if they try to cause harm, it's justified. I'm doing something good in the world. Look at all these people writing all these hateful things.
(1:45:13) I'm going to get rid of this person. And they don't realize that there's human beings can justify and sell anything to themselves. >> Yeah. I I did criminal polygraphs crimes and I would sit across people and they would do some some crimes were big sometimes were small but no matter what crime it was I am telling you Raj I think 99.
(1:45:37) 9% of the time they sold it to themselves I know I did this but I did it because of X Y and Z you can justify anything you can justify hurting another human being >> whether emotionally or physically if you want to sell it to yourself you will I had one it was a bank employee a person who worked in the bank and they were stealing money from the bank.
(1:45:57) Most fraud in banks half of it probably half of it happens from within the bank and this person was stealing money because so I'm interviewing them and I'm like hey you know tell me about you know you taking that money and after some time the person finally says yes I took the money cuz I was doing the polygraph I was interviewing them and they're like listen yeah but it's not my fault I took the money it's their fault and so I'm like please please explain well they left the money out they didn't secure the money when you get money when the
(1:46:25) money of the bank supposed to be secured in this location. They should have cameras. They should lock it up. Uh but they didn't do that. They left the money out. There were no cameras in the area. So clearly they don't care about their their customers money. So if they cared, they'd lock it up, not leave it out there.
(1:46:44) So it's their fault I stole the money. If you care about that money, lock it up. But to me, they don't care about the money. They didn't care if I took it. That's how they justified it. That's how they sold it to themselves. So people do that consistently. Now, when it comes back to threats, people can justify why they would want to hurt or harm a world leader because there's plenty of negative things to read.
(1:47:03) >> Um, the other thing is what's becoming a problem, especially with this current environment, people now post their threats. So, if you're doing protection, like one of the things the Secret Service has to do is they have to look at a threat and then say, is this credible? Is it not? And do I have the manpower to send to go talk to this person? So think about now all the people writing these hate not just hateful things but I want to kill or I want to take out right do I [snorts] have enough people all over the
(1:47:35) country to send to to go interview this person and if I interview this person um I have to make a decision are they truly going to cause harm or not are they a threat or not because there are times where you're like all right I don't think there's anything here but then that person goes and does something and now you're in trouble because you didn't deem it a credible threat. It is very hard.
(1:47:57) So now you're not just chasing people that show up, people that write letters, or people that make calls. Now you have to go through all these social media feeds. You have to work with the social media companies and call up X and say, "Hey X, um, Big Guns wrote this comment that they want to take out the president. Can you please release to me >> who Big Guns is?" the the handle big guns.
(1:48:21) >> Uh where are they located? I need to go interview and find this person and is ex going to give that to you because there's privacy issues. So the the it's a horrible environment to be in. >> Well, here's last three questions which I ask every guest. Okay. One is when have you felt the most powerless in your life? Probably I think 911 was probably the the day I felt very power powerless because I was at the World Trade Center and it's where we worked and you're watching thousands of people die and you can't do anything.
(1:49:02) specifically when I remember I was standing by uh the Vessie Street, the Westside Highway, and that's when both towers were on fire, and there were people, you could see, they don't show it now in the news, but you could see people in the holes waving stuff. And there was a lot of people, a lot.
(1:49:27) And you see them there, and they're all the way up there, and you don't know how to get to them. and they started jumping. They would just jump. And you're literally watching people choose to jump rather than burn. And there's nothing you can do. And you feel like absolutely worthless. That human beings are dying and you can't do anything other than watch them die. That's That was sad.
(1:49:58) That's worthless. How did you overcome that? Cuz that sight must have given you nightmares for months. >> You overcome it one, you know, like I have this saying, I'm not that special. And I anytime I begin to feel sad or cuz we're all human. I always tell myself, I'm not that special. There's somebody who's got it worse than me, is going through harder things than I am, and I'm not that special.
(1:50:29) Cuz like when you think you're special, you think your problems are special. You think your pain is special. You think your suffering is special. And I'm not. The other thing is there were a lot of more people that lost there were people that lost more than I did on that day. So I always remind myself of that. I remind myself that I lived and others did not.
(1:50:47) And so I promised myself that if I would live through it, which I did, I would live a a good life. When I say good life, um, you know, I chased meaning over money. And not that money is bad. I believe in wealth and and and all that stuff. I think it's a good thing. But I I promised myself that if my time came again cuz I was lucky. I wasn't killed.
(1:51:09) I could have been. It was moment where I was I probably should have died and I did not. And I promised myself, you know, if I live through this, I'm going to live a meaningful life so that when I go the next time, cuz next time's going to come, I'm ready to go. So I I I chose to look at it as a as a blessing.
(1:51:30) >> See, you have you have protected people, you have gathered information, you have interrogated people in your life, you have lied for living. >> I'm a good liar. >> You're a good liar, right? You've caught people lying. You've protected presidents and you've served the country. You've done so many things.
(1:51:52) To be successful at what you do, what is the cost that you personally paid? Pain. You got to be good at taking pain. Pain. That's it. Pain. If you're good at eating if you're good at the world and and life being hard, you're going to be fine. You'll be successful. I don't care how smart you are, how skilled you are.
(1:52:14) None of that matters. You must be resilient. You must have a pain tolerance. Pain I you can sit and wallow in it. And I'm not saying that sometimes we're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe this happened to me." Uh I it and you can, but you're going to get stuck. Bad things happen to everybody all the time. It's the people that keep moving.
(1:52:34) You have to keep moving. And and also, you know what I'll say to people? When something terrible happens to you, it doesn't mean it's not terrible. Please don't make it an excuse. Well, this bad thing happened to me and that's why I did this. This bad thing happened to me and that's why I'm stuck here. It's still a choice.
(1:52:54) You you and I say it not to make people feel bad, but to to to let you know like you can choose. Don't let anybody make you think like and I think sometimes in an effort sometimes it's like we the narrative becomes a little bit like oh this bad thing happens to you that's why you behave this way and then now people think oh I am stuck here and it's like you're not you're not so that's where that victim thing comes in I'm a victim of this this person did that I always always always anything bad happens to me or anything negative I always ask myself
(1:53:26) what role did I play in this [snorts] because when I do that, I never blame anybody else. Even when people wrong me, we're all going to get wrong. I always look at what could I have done differently because when I do that, I bring the power back to me. I'm in charge. I I I have power to change my circumstance.
(1:53:45) But when this guy was a jerk to me or that person talked about me or this person did this bad thing to me, this person lied to me or this person manipulated me, I I am powerless. So I guess it's two things. One is be able to look at yourself and say, "How am I responsible here? And what can I do differently?" Cuz that makes you powerful.
(1:54:07) It doesn't mean you blame yourself. Uh-uh. Uh- uh. It means you I have the ability to change this. And the two is withstanding the bad stuff. If you can withstand the pain, it's pain tolerance. Have great pain tolerance, you'll be fine. But it's people that don't have good pain tolerance that they just they become annihilated.
(1:54:27) But does that make you numb? Is the cost of surviving in your career is becoming numb. Not feel pain at all. >> No, you're resilient. You don't not feel. You feel >> and you >> It just doesn't crush you. It doesn't crush you. It's not that you don't feel anything. You feel for every I would feel for people I arrested. There were people I felt bad for that I arrested. I couldn't not arrest them.
(1:54:50) So, I was kind to them or respectful to them. I would make sure they ate or fed them. Or sometimes I would ask people, I would tell people, I have to arrest you. And this was with non-violent crimes. Do you want me to show up at your house or your work, or do you want to show up to my office? I'll give you a choice.
(1:55:06) And these were people that I knew I could track them. So, I would give people a choice. Do you want to self-surrender? It's called self-surrender. Do you want me to come find you? What do you What would you like? So, I I I was I'm a human being. I don't have to be a jerk in life.
(1:55:22) like I feel um I just I can you can feel and still do it. People think like oh I don't want to feel bad. I feel bad about many things. I feel shame about many things. I feel guilt about many things. I suffer like everybody else. I just I still experience it but I keep moving. What do they say? You know progress no matter how slow is still progress.
(1:55:44) It's not about not feeling. That's why sometimes people think like I want to forget that this happened to me. I want to forget the pain. Why? Why? It's a when you feel bad, it means you're a good human being. >> Agreed. Agreed. Well, thank you so much for coming here, spending time with us and teaching us about so many things.
(1:56:05) Thank you. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hello. Nice to meet you. Good to meet you. This is >> Thank you for having me on. At that time you wouldn't have seen like the real India, right? You would be on duty. You would be on I mean >> yeah I mean you're the country. >> Yes. I mean sometimes like when you if you get some downtime but again you're in that bubble >> so you don't get to really go too far like you have to stay with the group in a sense.
(1:56:33) >> Exactly. And then that I'm assuming in every country would be same like the nice hotel everywhere it's the same thing. You do you stay usually near them or where they stay. [music] >> Yeah. >> Which is obvious. Yeah. And then also though for safety reasons too. And let me think about this if I can share this.
(1:56:52) [music] Bathrooms sometimes are used as hard rooms. They're called the rooms where you can tactically [music] fight. So you're looking at as a bathroom. I'm looking at it as bathrooms are great places [music] to stage a fight >> to protect because there's there's one way in, one way out. So, if I'm going to have my protectee, I'm going to throw the him in there [music] and that doorway is the only way in and out and that's going to be my fighting stance.
(1:57:22) So, that might have been their hard room. >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(1:57:41) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
