FBI Spy Hunter: "Spot a Psychopath Before He F*cks With Your Head!" The 8 Mind Games He'll Play
Author Name:Lisa Bilyeu
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@LisaBilyeu
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvrO6rJLLZo
Title: FBI Spy Hunter: "Spot a Psychopath Before He F*cks With Your Head!" The 8 Mind Games He'll Play
Author Name: Lisa Bilyeu
Description: Thank you to today’s sponsors:
OpusClip: Go to https://clip.opus.pro/dashboard?coupo... to try Opus Clip for free today and get 50% off your first three months on the Pro Monthly plan.
Monarch: 50% off your first year with code WOI https://monarch.com
You know those times when you’re SURE you’ve finally met someone trustworthy… but a tiny voice inside keeps whispering, “Something here doesn’t add up”? Or maybe you’ve been burned badly, and now you question everyone, even yourself, just trying to keep safe.
Today I’m sitting down with former FBI Counterintelligence Special Agent Robin Dreeke: A man who literally spent 21 years professionally catching traitors and decoding deception. We break down what really keeps us stuck with manipulators, how to trust your instincts without emotional hijacking, and the hard truth about why the “creepy” feeling is almost always right, even when you’re being love-bombed.
Here’s exactly what we dive into:
The body-language and “tempo” shifts that reveal someone’s hiding something (even if they seem perfect)
Why emotional hijacking blinds us (and the 3-question antidote for clarity)
How trauma bonds keep women trapped, and how to break free before it gets deadly
What “creepy” really is (and why you must never shame yourself for feeling it)
Chapters
[00:03:04] The Corrie Richens Story: Performative Empathy and the Psychopath’s Mask
[00:10:31] “Why Did I Trust Them?”. Decoding Who to Believe
[00:14:00] First Impressions That Fool Us (and How to Get Curious Instead)
[00:15:11] Pattern Breakers: The Bryan Kohberger Case and False Normalcy
[00:17:40] “Tempo Tells” & The Spy Trap: When Agendas Shift in Real Time
[00:26:30] Positive Illusions, Emotional Hijacking & Trauma Bonding (The Gilgo Beach Murders)
[00:33:36] Situational Awareness that Actually Works: From Grocery Store Traps to Everyday Life
[00:41:26] When Law Enforcement Mistakes Calm for Innocence: The Gabby Petito Breakdown
[00:46:33] The Lindsay Clancy Case: Mental Health, Maternal Crisis & True Deviation
[01:03:10] Paralysis Analysis: Why It Takes 7 Attempts to Leave
Follow Robin Dreeke:
MasterClass: http://masterclass.com/robindreeke
Website: https://www.robindreeke.com
Instagram: / rdreeke
X: https://x.com/rdreeke
YouTube: / @rdreeke
Hidden Killers: / @hiddenkillerspod
Speaking / booking: https://www.robindreeke.com/speaking
Follow Me, Lisa Bilyeu:
Website: https://www.lisabilyeu.com
Instagram: / lisabilyeu
Facebook: / lisabilyeu
Want to search through every episode, explore specific topics, or ask me questions directly?
Check out my Dexa page: https://dexa.ai/lisabilyeu
WARNING: I will never ask for your contact info in the comments section. That’s 100% a scammer.
Transcript:
(00:00) Psychopaths are people genetically born without empathy. They can see you in pain. They can see you suffering [music] psychologically, emotionally, physically, and feel nothing about it. So, if I got pushback, resistance, or victim blaming, pointing at you who you think you are, it's not just a red flag then.
(00:21) We now have banners flying in the air. So, if I'm actually suspecting I'm dealing with someone on [music] the psychopathy scale, I'm going to test by asking >> According to the largest study ever done on lie detection with over 24,000 people, they discovered that when someone's telling us the truth, we get it right 61% of the time.
(00:42) But when someone's lying to us, we only catch it 47% of the time. So, basically, we're far better at recognizing honesty than we are at catching lies. But Robin, not you. You spent 21 years in the FBI counterintelligence getting trained liars to spill their deepest, darkest secrets. So, for anyone listening, what are some immediate things we can look out for to actually assess if we're being deceived, played, or blindsided by a traitor in our own lives? >> Yeah, those stats are pretty remarkable to think about, to contemplate. And it
(01:15) The first thing that pops in my mind is when you talk about a stat like that about detecting deception, not being able to do it is is confirmation bias. Because every human being's been burned at least once, especially if you've been burned in the heart. And then you become very wary, and you give yourself a confirmation bias.
(01:34) And especially if you're going to give yourself a confirmation bias of being deceived, being hurt or burnt by someone because they're being deceptive, they hid agendas from you, they had a secret life they never shared with you. What happens to us is we start seeking it. We start trying to find it. We start trying to identify it.
(01:52) In other words, we get really, really good tunnel vision because it's a threat, it made us feel fearful, and we have fears our motivation, we want to never feel fearful again. So, we're going to try to find that thing that allowed us to feel fear, which was deception, deceit, dishonesty. But what happens unfortunately when we focus in on that one thing, we miss everything else.
(02:12) >> Mhm. That makes sense. What if you don't know that that somebody can have bad intentions? So, you think you know them, you think you like them, and I have a quote of yours here. This is manipulation is control of your time, action, space, words, and thoughts. >> Yeah. >> Um but if we don't know that, now we're getting manipulated to believe a certain narrative that isn't actually true.
(02:34) >> So, I got to go back on a word you used, bad intentions. Bad intentions is context. >> Oh. >> Does that person think that they're have bad intentions? >> Oh, probably not. >> No, they have intentions. >> Mhm. >> Their intentions are going to be incongruent with yours. Everyone is acting according to what they think is their best interest.
(02:54) Now, granted, we have psychopaths, we have sociopaths, we have people that have with malformed brains and chemical imbalances. Those are really unhealthy people with broken brains. So, let's go first with Kouri Richins. >> Okay. >> So, Kouri Richins, I'll give a really brief synopsis. Um Kouri Richins is the mother of a couple kids, boys, who was accused and sentenced for killing her husband and then writing a children's book about it.
(03:17) >> Oh, oh yes. >> Yes, this one, right. So, here's a woman that was putting on a fake front. And so, how do we know someone's putting on a fake front? Because this is the world of psychopathy. If you say someone's a psychopath or you heard someone say that someone's psychopathic, what's that actually mean? Psychopaths are people genetically born without empathy.
(03:38) They have an inability to feel and understand the context of another human being. It it just doesn't register. In other words, they can take actions against you and they don't care. >> Mhm. >> Like they can see you in pain, they can see you suffering psychologically, emotionally, even physically and feel nothing about it.
(03:58) So you take the Kouri Richins case. So here's someone who's pretending to be a caring mother and a caring wife. What she was doing was she was caught up in her own financial disaster zone of constantly trying to do these different deals, these different schemes, real estate. Got herself in millions of dollars of debt. And the only way she saw to get herself out of debt was to put lots of life insurance policies on her husband and kill him.
(04:24) So here's what this psychopath did. So she kills him by poisoning him with fentanyl. Tried it once, tried it twice apparently, accidentally almost killed one of her kids according to the kids, including her boyfriend. So she had a side hustle going on with her boyfriend. Finally kills the husband and then she decides hmm I can write a book about it.
(04:46) So she hired herself a ghostwriter because she was unable to feel the things her kids were feeling for missing their dad. >> Oh, so she had a ghostwriter write it because she couldn't understand the emotion. >> Absolutely. And so she had a ghostwriter write the book and then she goes on talk shows. >> to make context, she wrote a book for children about losing their father.
(05:04) >> Yes. >> Uh-huh. >> About how to deal with the grief of losing their dad. And so in the book the dad is looking over them as an angel and she's there pretending because a psychopath can't do anything but pretend emotions cuz that's another congruency with most people that are going to do harm against others.
(05:20) They see themselves as victims and they're going to seek retribution, they keep score cards and they're going to get you as opposed to the other half of the population which are problem solvers. They take things as learning events, they take things as a humbling moment. I'm going to learn from it. There's a lot of skills and tools I can take so I can do better next time.
(05:36) And so Kouri Richins saw herself as a victim, wrote a children's book, got caught behind bars. >> Um before we move on, so one thing I have a question is if you were to then sit down with her and let's say she people were starting to suspect her, but no one knows yet. What are some things that you would potentially ask her to maybe start revealing the truth? >> This one's challenging.
(05:57) In general, if you're dealing with someone that is low on the psychopathy scale, you always want to start with what I thought called a golden keys of communication. You're going to seek their thoughts and opinions instead of sharing yours non-stop. You're going to talk in terms of their priorities, challenges, pain points, and friction in life instead of going on about yours.
(06:13) Going to validate them with that non-judgmental, very active curiosity. And you're going to empower them with choice cuz again, people feel safer choices. In a case like this, I start out with by asking in Kouri Richins' case if she tragically lost her husband, say, you know, "Tell me Tell me about what this journey's been for you and whatever you're comfortable with.
(06:33) " And then when she starts sharing, she's giving you nuggets about things that she's comfortable sharing. Say, "Tell me more about this. What was next? What was next?" And the entire time what I'm assessing is I'm assessing the level of healthy in her life. So, tell me about the relationship with your parents. Was it good, healthy? How was their life like? Cuz I'm trying to assess, do you have a pattern in your life of healthy relationships or unhealthy relationships? And so in Kouri Richins' case, those are the things I'd look at.
(06:58) Now, here's the challenge. If you're dealing with someone on psychopathy scale, they don't respond to empathy. They don't respond to emotional connection. Their only response is grandiosity. So, if I'm actually suspecting I'm dealing with someone on the psychopathy scale, I'm going to test it by I'm going to test by asking some questions about relationships.
(07:18) I should get some really good congruence between the things they're saying and the non-verbals I'm getting from them because Kouri's very good at saying the right words, but there's non-verbal incongruence because she's sitting there kind of score I mean, you even watch her during the trial and during the sentencing, she's making faces.
(07:33) She's scoring people. When her kids are telling her they hate her and don't feel safe with her again, she's like, "Ah, boo-boo." I mean, we had a case in the bureau years ago that we had someone that had committed espionage. They had been arrested for that espionage and this person also was being charged with being a pedophile.
(07:50) Heinous, horrible things. And so my team was called in to strategize how do we get this person to give us the names of those of those kids that were abused so we could go save kids. How do we connect with someone that we have this abhorrent feeling for? And so this person also, from what we saw, was high on the psychopathy scale.
(08:12) And so we keep coming up with "Oh, do it for the kids. You don't You care about kids." No, no, no, you can't. >> Uh-huh. >> This was you're not as good at doing this as this person because when you're appealing to someone's that's psychopathy only appeals to grandiosity. So people like the Dennis Rader, who is known as the BTK killer, >> Yes.
(08:30) >> he and other serial killers, once they start losing attention from people, what do they do? They leak out information. They use information as currency to bolster themselves. We had another strategy where someone had actually high on the psychopathy scale stolen millions of dollars and used to carry it around in a satchel with him and he'd go into a dive bar, put it by the door just for the thrill of seeing if anyone walk out that door with it.
(08:53) The only thing we found in this guy's apartment was a was a copy of the old movie Catch Me If You Can. >> Oh. Uh-huh. >> And so here he is. Our strategy for him was not to try to elicit the horrible things he did to the old people he stole the money from. It's like, "Listen, you thought you're good? You're not as good as that guy.
(09:11) " That guy actually helps the bureau. That guy actually is a consultant for the bureau now. >> And it worked? >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. That's crazy. >> wants to be better. So all these people are always going for grand, always want to be better. >> Um so going back to Corey Richards for a second, there was a moment in time where everyone trusted everyone empathized with her.
(09:29) Everyone was like hearts were bleeding because of what she went through. Then you say the story of her being in court scoffing and you can just see all the things. So talk to me about the two types of almost masks or unmasks that she's wearing. So, the first one, that's the thing that I think so many of us women watching worry about is I've trusted someone, I've given over, I've maybe given them money, I've given them time, I've given them energy, and the whole thing was [ __ ] So, what was it in hindsight you can look back and go these were the things that she did that
(09:56) allowed us public to trust in her story and narrative? >> I got my goosebumps. This is such a good question cuz I think this is such a good learning moment. >> All right, guys, we'll be right back with Robin, but real quick, if you've ever gotten value from a single Women of Impact episode, I ask you one simple favor.
(10:14) Please smash the subscribe button because one quick click to subscribe is a calling card to all women that this is a place to come and build your confidence. Now, back to the episode. >> So, what was it in hindsight you can look back and go these were the things that she did that allowed us public to trust in her story and narrative? >> I got my goosebumps.
(10:33) This is such a good question cuz I think this is such a good learning moment. There's not a human being out there that hasn't felt creepy by someone. And what's creepy? We are so good as human beings, everyone watching, everyone doing this is so good at observing. What happens is we get off sometimes with interpreting what that means that we observed or we'll disregard it, which is also bad.
(10:56) And so, creepy is really important to recognize cuz this person could say they could be saying the right things, they're making it all about me by seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of what's important to me, validating me, being curious, giving you choice, all those things. But instead of being sitting back and relaxing and just enjoying the moment and flowing with a good easygoing tempo the entire time, keeping that focus on you, all of a sudden they're pressing.
(11:18) They're pushing a timeline, they're pushing agenda. There's an incongruence, in other words, between words, actions, and deeds, and that leaves us feel creepy. Then anyone can relate this to someone who's had an unhealthy relationship with someone that made you feel creepy in only hindsight that you recognize it? No, you recognize it early on.
(11:35) You just don't trust your instinct. And so, here's what happened in Kouri Richins' case. So, someone sees her on the news because she did all these news broadcasts promoting her book. >> Joining us now is author of Are You With Me? Kouri Richins to share her three C's to helping kids cope with grief. >> They saw this incongruence between words, actions, and deeds.
(11:55) Something's off. And then they passed that off onto law enforcement because they saw it and law enforcement went one level below the story that everyone fell in love with that made sense, the poor widow that's got to raise the boys on her own. Did a deeper dive and lo and behold, she's the bad person.
(12:14) A horrendous person that killed her husband. And so, same thing in our other everyday life. When we pick up on incongruence, we can be wrong. But don't disregard that you're picking up on a wobble. I call it a wobble. A wobble from what you expect someone to do. A wobble that makes you feel creepy. There's something off with this person.
(12:31) What I want you to do is pause, reflect, and ask yourself, "What caused me to think that?" A healthy relationship should come back with transparency, same nonverbal tempo, same energy, same verbals, nonverbals, modulation. Everything should remain the same. But if I still get pushback, resistance, or victim-blaming [ __ ] you know, pointing at you, "Who do you think you are?" It's not just a red flag then.
(12:58) We now have banners flying in the air cuz now we need to step back and say, "That's an unhealthy response to what should have been a benign question." >> Okay. So, that makes complete sense. I love the way you broke it down. Now, let's almost go to the original hook though, where people felt so bad for her that she was able to fool people in the first place cuz it wasn't until we started to see the incongruencies that then the red flags and the banners started to wave.
(13:22) So, you actually say that you shouldn't trust your first impressions of people. So, when I think about this woman, how she goes on national television, I mean, I think it was Good Morning America. So, first of all, you have a credible channel already. >> Right. >> So, it's already got that credibility baked in.
(13:40) Then, I didn't even question the story. It was immediately this poor woman lost her husband, and now she's got these kids, and God bless her, she's helping so many people by writing a kids book about helping kids understand losing a parent. All of what I just laid out, not even in 1 millisecond did I even consider the story would be false.
(14:00) >> So, when we first taking that data, when the first impression on someone, we're assessing what's their baseline at. And we can we can trust that first baseline to a point, but if it's is something standing out, that's where we should get curious. And so, in Kouri Richins' case, the sto- I mean, have you ever heard of a woman writing a a children's book about a husband and a father that died? >> No, which is why I thought it was lovely.
(14:24) >> Right. Lovely, but a deviation from the norm. >> Oh. >> So, let's take a look at that. >> Oh, really? So, that would be a flag for you. >> Yeah, that was a flag for me. Not a not a not a flag like there's something wrong. It's like, that's interesting. >> Right. >> Curiosity, curiosity, curiosity, curiosity.
(14:41) It helps us critically think, you know, if there's a deviation from what we expect, do a deeper dive. Get a little curious about it. Just don't do research on TikTok. Actually look at source material. >> That's so smart. What takes you to just a whole different level to then us normal people is I heard you talking about a case, oh, I wish I could remember.
(14:58) It was some sort of serial killer case. And it was in your podcast. You guys start talking about patterns. And you're like, well, he would go and get coffee every morning. And you said, how long has he been doing that? Because what some people do is they create false patterns. >> Yeah, this is the um Brian Kohberger case, the Idaho killers.
(15:15) >> If you don't mind explaining the the >> Yeah, so, Brian Kohberger, this is the one the Idaho four um horrendous case. He had struggled uh his life earlier in life uh with addiction. He is overweight and he was he had a thing called visual snow. He had a lot of issues growing up. And when you look at the arc of his life, one of the arcs in his life was very, very unhealthy relationships with females and women.
(15:39) Matter of fact, it got to the point where when he actually went to Washington State University, all his students as when he's a teaching assistant there in the PhD program, many, many made complaints about him, about the department, how sexist he is. He was derogatory, intimidating, standing in front of I mean, he did all the things that telltale signs of an arc of someone who hates women.
(15:58) So, he eventually targeted a home and where he wound up killing um three uh three beautiful young women and uh the boyfriend of one. And what he tried to do is he tried to create a false pattern. So, he would go out at night a few times, but only for like a couple months or 6 months prior to the actual murders.
(16:21) They tried to create a pattern, but it wasn't a pattern of long time. The night there he committed the murders, he actually turned his cell phone off before he left his apartment and then after he committed the murders, thinking that, "Well, you're going to see no cell phone ping during this time period." But you didn't account for the period before and period after.
(16:37) One of the ways they caught him more multiple ways, when they actually suspected he was the killer themselves, they're uh surveilling his home in Pennsylvania, his parents' home where he's living during the break, during Christmas break. And what he was doing was he had he knew that the FBI and the law enforcement might do a trash cover, you know, to try to get his trash and try to get evidence against him.
(16:58) So, what he would do is he'd put on gloves inside the house early in the morning to bag up his trash in in Ziploc bags, his his own trash. And then when he brought the trash out, he didn't put it in his trash can, he put it in the neighbor's trash can across the across the street. Major deviation from a pattern of what normal healthy people do.
(17:19) >> That was so good. Oh my god, that was so good because um those are the things that I did I think our average person doesn't think about. Um there's another thing that I think is really helpful for us women to know that you talk about which is called temper tell spikes. So talk to me about that and have you seen them in someone that made you go from thinking they were one way to then thinking they were another.
(17:41) >> Yeah, there's a great case I use in the class on master class and it's a spy recruitment operation I was doing. So here I am uh younger guy in the FBI I had found out through using our over years and being up on someone's internet traffic and this is a known Russian intelligence officer working in New York City.
(17:59) >> Oh. >> And I found out he was going on vacation up to a ski resort during Thanksgiving this one this one year. And I'm like here's an opportunity to try to get in front of him and see if I could recruit this Russian spy. >> And he doesn't know you're an FBI agent. >> No, so here's part of the challenge of being a spy recruiter in the FBI was that by by treaty and and law it's illegal for me to approach an intelligence officer because they're saying their day job is as a diplomat but their real job is as an intelligence
(18:27) officer/spy. So I cannot approach them so I I need to create a situation where in other words no cold calling where they approach me and also I can't be FBI because then he's is automatically thinking this is an operation. I have to find myself where I'm in a position where I can be attractive to him as a potential source for him but not so attractive he's going to report it back.
(18:47) So all these kind of gyrations got to do but the first thing you got to do is you got to get in front of him. And so he's going on vacation cuz you got to create a place where he feels safe away from all his friends and colleagues up at a resort. This might be a good opportunity to get in front of him so he finds and initiates contact with me.
(19:03) I I did all my research I found out the hotel he's staying at got myself booked in the same hotel. >> Pause for a second. This story feels like what a lot of women feel men do to them where like they've got their eye on you and they're like my strategy is to get you. So everything you're laying out was very mirrored to what I think a lot of us women have gone through.
(19:22) So thank you. Now I >> Yeah, it really is interesting if you kind of do that as an overlay. If a guy is targeting you, he's going to put himself in your line of sight and create an opportunity for you to want to initiate contact with him by by becoming interesting. >> Yeah, so what did you do to him to make him interested in you? >> Coming up.
(19:39) >> You hear cops or law officers and give them instructions [music] like I want you to be vil- vigilant. Those are nice subjective words, but they never give you instructions on what that means. So here's what it is. >> If you create content, you already know the ridiculous part, which is recording a thing that actually take less time than turning that one video into clips for every freaking platform.
(20:00) And that's why we use Opus Clips right here at Women of Impact because social content matters. But I do not want me or my team spending their entire lives dragging clips around on the editing timeline. Opus Clips clip anything feature can take long-form content and help turn it into short-form clips with the cuts, captions, and formatting handled just for you.
(20:21) So instead of one great interview sitting there waiting to be edited, you can actually get more of your ideas out into the world. That's the win for me. More content, less of tedious crap that keeps you from creating it. It's super easy to use. Click the link in the show notes. Don't sleep on this, mahomie. Go and get it right now. Go check it out.
(20:39) >> So this is this is really key. So I had found out, again, lower-level priorities in this guy's life was he liked to drink and he liked to drink dull beverages. And my plan was that we're going to stay at this hotel up in Whiteface Mountain and this hotel had a bar at it I saw, so I'll probably be able to engage him at the bar.
(20:56) I knew also knew that he enjoyed traveling and getting discount travel tickets for him and his family. There's another priority. So you identify priorities. And so I get up there and lo and behold, the hotel is completely empty cuz no one goes there on Thanksgiving. Everyone's home with their families. I'm up there with another agent, his wife, who's also another agent, and their little dog.
(21:13) I was like, "Uh-oh, what am I going to do?" I got to create an environment where he approaches me and feels safe. So, what I did was I talked to the hotel manager, and I got ahead of him before the IO, the intelligence officer, came up there. And I said, "Can I rearrange the furniture a little bit to make this more homey?" And he said, "Absolutely.
(21:27) " So, I actually rearranged the furniture in a nice little circle around the fireplace in the lobby of the hotel. I went out, I got a bunch of what his favorite beer of the time was, which is Heineken. So, I put a bucket of ice, bucket of beer, sitting here, little dog running around.
(21:41) He also liked dogs, so I knew that. Little dog running around, him and his family walk in. We're sitting there around the fire. Didn't say anything. He goes up to his room. We still wait. Patience is is the crown jewel of everything in life. And finally, he comes down maybe an hour or two later. He goes right up to the bar door, shakes the door to get in.
(21:58) It's locked. He looks over at us. I hold up a nice icy cold adult beverage. He smiles, sits down, and it's off and running. And so, that's the initiation. So, during the course of three or four days up there, we gained a good relationship. We had liking. We liked traveling together. My wife, I was telling him, was a travel agent, so she could get discount tickets.
(22:20) She really? Or Oh, okay, cool. >> [laughter] >> Total fictitious. Um it's an interesting thing when you create a relationship based on a lie, you cannot sustain that relationship. So, so if you I did a lot of undercover work, and I knew it that what I had to do as soon as possible was to hand off someone to a real relationship for trust.
(22:38) Cuz once someone discovers there's been a deception, trust is gone. No relationship. I don't care what's on the line. And so, um I told him that because it's a priority of his. And one of my priorities I shared with him was discount tickets to Broadway plays, cuz my family, my wife's family had people coming in to see Broadway.
(22:55) And so, this is where our mutual liking was. Not trust. We didn't have enough time for trust. We had liking. And so, what happens was at one point he comes down and I knew he was an operations officer, but he hadn't been operational like we're sitting down, we're having these great conversations, we're talking about family, we're talking about our kids and and growing up and we're talking about wanting to go on vacation next and all of a sudden say I'm him, I'm Sergey and you're me.
(23:18) All of a sudden out of the blue he does this. Oh, uh-huh. So, Robin, is that your car out in the parking, is that your truck that you're driving? I'm watching this tempo tell cuz in other words we're we're sitting we have a tempo. We have a natural way in which we're interacting, got non-verbals, open, accommodating, smiling, some head tilts, some head nods.
(23:40) All these things are saying we're making a connection. This is the tempo I have, this is the baseline for 3 days and all of a sudden we get a a tell, we get a wobble, we get a lean in. So, what happens when we see these things? There's been a shift in mindset from the person we're engaging. Their agenda has shifted. >> Oh, okay, yes. >> And so his agenda shifted from casual >> Mhm.
(24:00) >> to operational. >> Mhm, mhm. >> He went from letting the agenda flow to I have a very specific purpose and he asked me the car I drove, is that my license plate on it? He got very very and I'm sitting here saying I'm seeing this live. I'm watching an intelligence officer complete and he had years of experience, years of training.
(24:19) These are the most highly trained human recruiters of human beings too cuz that's what intelligence officers do on the entire planet and he sucked. >> [laughter] >> But I'm sitting here just taking in data that he's presenting in the moment and when he shifted with a tempo tell, I paid attention.
(24:38) It became the most obvious thing. So, afterwards I was able to write up a report. Here's the intelligence he was going for, boom boom boom boom boom and then after he got his information, we went back casual again. >> So, you saw it but he didn't even realize he was doing it. >> he was doing it. >> All these certain tempo tells that you see quite often um as that we humans kind of do that we can keep an eye out for? >> Anytime you see a a shift >> the deviation specifically? >> and and then you just ask yourself, all right, so they're shifting an agenda.
(25:09) And are they transparent with that agenda? Or they're not transparent with that agenda? What's the purpose of the shift? What's going on their mind? Now, here's where we'll go back to first impressions. If we're typically are are been burned and we're skeptical people, we we our first impression gives us like, "Oh, he's trying to get me.
(25:26) " No, he just shifted a mindset or maybe you reminded him of someone from another relationship. Maybe you reminded him of something, "Oh, I got to go home and check my stove." And you have no idea. That's why people, if you're looking for deception, you're going to find deception. It's easier to see what shifted and what caused that shift.
(25:41) >> Sometimes it could be deception. Most of the times it's because there's a stressor that introduced something in that person's mind that caused them to shift the behaviors you're seeing. Explore it. >> That's great. I love that so much. Um, I want to read you a stat. According to research out of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we don't see our partners as they actually are.
(26:05) We see an idealized version more positively than they even see themselves. Psychologists call it a positive illusion. And here's the kicker, the more attached we are, the stronger that gets. So now I think about you're with somebody, they do these temper tells, but we don't even see it coming. We ignore the temper tell or we rationalize the temper tell.
(26:23) But now in you saying like it's a shift in their agenda, that's so powerful to me. What type of thing then can we look at? How do you assess actually what that agenda shift is? >> When you see someone, as we'll say, lose your [ __ ] um, and it's an early relationship, that's someone's unable to even keep a mask up for very long.
(26:41) And so I would say the vast majority of women that I see get victimized and everything I see in the world of true crime or anything else is because they get start getting trauma bonded. And trauma bonding is a huge thing that happens because someone Say someone puts on that that good front for you on the first date, second date, third date, or even maybe a couple months into relationship, and then they'll hit you with one of those whammies.
(27:07) And control is the number one people that these important people are doing. They're trying to control you, control your actions. And so, instead of being once a month, now we've got twice a month. Now we've got three times a month. Every time they're doing it, it's getting worse. But every time they're doing it, your rationalization is getting more because you're trying You're getting trauma bonded to those good times so that those good times that used to be like this with the bad times down here, now they're inverted.
(27:32) >> Mhm. >> And now you're caught and trapped because now there's threats coming in. There's threats of violence, threats of being thrown out because they've made you so dependent on them emotionally, physically, and psychologically that there's no escape in your own mind. Cuz, man, past is prologue.
(27:46) You start seeing it once or twice, it's not because it's being developed just now. It's been there all the way. They've masked it their entire lives or masked at least in front of you. And it's not that it's increasing, their mask of hiding it is decreasing. To go back on something that we thought about someone would say to ourselves, I must've wrong.
(28:04) >> Mhm. >> We don't like being wrong. We don't like self-doubt. So, we will start doubling down and start looking other ways because to admit we're wrong to ourselves, it's shameful, it's hurtful, it's embarrassing if we told to people how awesome this person is. And all of a sudden I got to say how how horrible they are.
(28:19) It makes us feel like we're going to be judged as an idiot. >> Oh, wow. Yes, you're right. Um now that I actually move on to something that you spoke about in your master class, which is called emotional hijacking. And I have a quote of yours, "This is the single biggest thing that gets in the way of reading people accurately." And so, I really want to talk about the antidote that you talk about about the antidote to emotional hijacking.
(28:42) So, first of all, talk about why emotional hijacking is so dangerous for us women. Is there um a case that maybe you've seen out there where someone the victim was emotionally hijacked and that could potentially have been the cause of the scenario? >> So, there's a case called the Gilgo Beach murders.
(29:00) The serial killer um Rex Heuermann was the guy's name. He was convicted not too long ago, a couple months ago. And his wife, Asa Ellerup. So, Asa and him had been together like since she was 19 or 20. She called him his knight the knight in shining armor that saved her. She'd just come out of a very abusive marriage. And he came in, swept her off her feet, he said. And he took care of me.
(29:22) He provided home to me. Her narrative, her positive emotional hijacking for him was, he's a good family man. If you listen to any of the documentaries that are on Peacock for him, he's nothing but a good family man. Even at his sentencing, that's not that's not the Rex I know. The net Rex I know is a good family man.
(29:40) Even though he's admitted to her, he killed at least eight women. >> Oh god. Eight women. >> And probably more, but he admitted to eight and sentenced for life behind bars. She now sleeps in the room he killed them in. >> So, he killed them in her house? Or in the house he grew >> in the boyhood uh house he grew up in and he was and he killed them all in his boyhood room.
(30:06) >> And now she sleeps in that room. >> Yes. Because she cannot get over the positive emotional hijacking she has towards him. >> Wow. >> Cannot let go because in her mind, he saved me when I was 19 years old. He's my knight in shining armor. But that's emotional hijacking at its prime, where she was blinded by it.
(30:28) >> Do you know if he abused her at all? >> Apparently no. >> Wow. >> So, he chose her to use her as a tool because he knew he could manipulate her because that emotion he emotionally hijacked her. He knew he could intentionally manipulate her to not pay attention to these huge gaps of time he committed these horrendous acts against these women when he sent her on vacations with their daughter.
(30:53) >> And she's thinking, "Look how sweet he is because he's just paid for us to go on vacation because he knows that I'm stressed or whatever." >> Yes. >> This is really why I really wanted you on. It's like these sorts of things where we just don't see them coming. >> Right. >> And this one in particular really hit me cuz I thought, "Oh, I definitely have that.
(31:13) " Let's say someone primes you, right? You've got to meet so-and-so. They are so nice. You'll love them. I automatically go in with a biasness of like, "Oh, I must like them." And if it's coming from someone that I respect and admire, it's almost like I don't necessarily give myself space to think for myself about how I feel about them, especially on the first impression.
(31:34) >> Yeah, it's so funny when you say that. The first one hits me as well. That is really over the top. >> [laughter] >> You know, I'm like, "Wow, what makes them so What makes that person so amazing? Let me do a deep dive on this person introducing me to." >> Oh, interesting. >> And I know cuz I do this with true crime case I do with every single relationship you deal with.
(31:52) If someone says great, beautiful, positive things, I'm excited to learn more about that person they're telling me about. Let me see it from my optic. They told me their optic and their context. Like, I love hearing why you think that this person is good for you in your life and I'm excited hear about what makes them good for you in your life.
(32:09) Now, the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to assess them to see if it's a match for my life cuz just because it's good for you in terms of your safety, security, and prosperity from your optic and perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be for mine. >> Are those the three things that we kind of normally assess then? >> Yeah, safety, security, and prosperity.
(32:25) And that helps us baseline and understand is this person safe and good for me cuz the most important thing to me always with every human being is to honor the relationship. It's There's not one thing or material gain or or really anything anywhere that someone could entice me with that's going to be worthy of compromising a good, healthy, strong relationship.
(32:47) Because when someone's being transparent and open with us and able to share these things, what's it give us? Situational awareness. When I have situational awareness, I feel I have control. When I feel I have control, I feel safe. >> Mhm. Talk to me about situational awareness because this is one thing that I'm learning more and more about.
(33:02) More from the like real practical physical side, but I just interviewed Dr. Hickey and he interviews and interrogates psychopaths. And he was telling me one of the scariest places or one of the most dangerous places in a grocery store is the greeting card section. It never would have dawned on me that that would be an unsafe situation.
(33:24) So, when I think about situational awareness, I think a lot of us I'm going to speak for myself. I'm not very aware. I think I am, but I'm not. So, what about situational awareness gives us a feeling of safety versus not a feeling of safety? >> I've really thought hard about this cuz I do a lot of uh commentary on different news um cable news channels when something happens and someone goes missing or there's been a break-in, you know, you hear cops or law enforcement give instructions like, "I want you to be vigilant."
(33:52) >> Oh. >> What they're saying is I want you to be situational aware. And so, those are nice subjective words, but they never give you instructions on what that means. So, here's what it is. Pause. Take it all in. So, for example, when you enter a new place, just take a second before you just keep barreling through on our tunnel vision to get from point A to point B.
(34:13) We're not noticing anything around us. Just take a second and take it all in. Don't try to see anything. In other words, when we try to see something, like when something bad happens, when someone does something bad, we start trying to look for a bad guy. >> Mhm. >> What's the bad guy look like? >> No. >> In books, on TV, on on true crime shows, we we start looking for a bad guy.
(34:39) But we're going to miss everyone else. You're going to miss everything else because you've given yourself a confirmation bias on that we're emotionally hijacked to think this is what a bad guy looks like. Bad guys never look like that. So in this one case where people, you know, say be vigilant because there's an escaped convict and he's wandering around this area, be vigilant.
(34:57) What that means is when you walk outside your house, take a pause before you walk right to your car, look around. Don't try to see anything. Just see what is. See people as they are without trying to place a label or meaning on it cuz here's where our brains work. Our brains do do this. They pick up when something's incongruent with what we expect.
(35:19) And that's where situational awareness comes in. So when you took it all in before you made your next move, your brain's going to see a wobble. So you might not know exactly what it is, but you're going to say something feels a little off. Now I want you to say if something feels a little off, don't jump to a conclusion cuz that's that first don't trust first impressions cuz your first impression can be wrong. Something's bad.
(35:40) No, it's just something's different. Neighbor could have come over and borrowed something without telling you know. Or a bad guy could have gone in your crawl space and left the door ajar. It's something. Something's off. Take a pause and ask yourself, what do I see that's different? And there you're going to start seeing everything.
(35:58) The day I let go of trying to see things is the day I became more observant. So the way you do this is let go of an agenda. Agendas when we have an agenda, that's our confirmation bias. Our agendas tell us what we want to see, what we're trying to see, and going to miss everything else. And so if you're in a dating world, if you're married, if you're in a relationship, if you're trying to see what's going right, you're going to miss potential red flags.
(36:24) [music] If If trying to see what's going wrong, you're going to miss what's going right. >> Yeah, God. >> [music] >> Coming up. >> Vast majority, I don't have the stat in front of me, but a vast majority of sexual assault cases are done against >> Ladies, one of the biggest shifts in my money story was realizing that financial competence is not about never making a bad decision.
(36:45) It's about being willing to look at the truth without freaking shame, and then deciding what you want to do next. That's what I love about Monarch because it puts your accounts, investments, [music] savings, goals, and spending all in one place so you can actually see the full picture instead of trying [music] to piece together your financial life in your head.
(37:04) And the AI weekly recap can flag things like spending spikes, upcoming expenses, and changes you may have missed. You can even ask the AI assistant questions like, "Can I splurge on this really cute jacket without touching my savings?" Because when you can see what's actually happening with your money, you can make decisions from clarity instead of anxiety.
(37:24) So, write your own money story right now with Monarch. Use code woi at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code woi. [music] >> It made me think of Gisèle Pelicot. Do you know her story? So, Gisèle Pelicot was the French woman. Her husband got arrested because they saw him taking photos under women's skirts.
(37:49) So, the police took his phone. In the phone, they found rape videos and photos of strange men raping his wife, Gisèle Pelicot. She then finds out he's been drugging her for like 9 years. And he was putting up on basically like Craigslist version of like, "Come and have sex with my wife." And it got discovered, and I'm desperately trying to get an interview with her because I just think that [clears throat] that woman's so incredible.
(38:17) But one of the things that came to me is, and I don't know her story, and I it's not this isn't a blame, but like I wonder if that situational awareness where you just especially when it's in your own home, you kind of just get blind to [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And so >> It's a boiling frog. >> Oh, yes. >> It's an escalation of them of an abhorrent bucket of genetic goo as I call them cuz people who do that to other human beings, especially women, they don't rate the the term human.
(38:41) They slowly escalate you to normal see. That's what Rex Heuermann did I think to his wife. You know, you start normalizing someone in your life to abhorrent behavior, so they start dismissing it. It becomes part of the normal and then they start isolating you from people you're interacting with. It's what It's how cults work.
(38:58) >> Yes. >> You know, so it's a very cult-like mentality where they're going to benefit from your loss, control of your information flow, control of who you're seeing, and for their own gain at your expense. Um but that's why we need to pick up on it because this horrendous situations like this. >> Yeah, thank you for that advice.
(39:15) That's why I really want to talk about this sort of thing because this really does become almost like life or death. >> Yes. >> And I'm just going to assume people may hate me, but like I'm going to assume that do women get emotionally hijacked more than men? >> Good question. I don't know the stats, but from you know, objective experience, I would say probably.
(39:37) >> Okay. >> Um and and it's a societal thing. I think it's a cultural thing because the the stressors that are placed on women that aren't placed on men are vastly different. I've had some truly eye-opening experiences of of the kind of stress that are placed on women and how they're targeted both in a true crime area.
(39:59) Matter of fact, vast majority, I don't have the stat in front of me, but a vast majority of sexual assault cases are done against sex workers. And sex workers in this industry are so underreported because they're breaking laws, so they're shamed into doing it. Like in I think the stat was I remember for every one sexual assault or or rape of a woman done that was a sex worker, there's 400 under reported.
(40:23) >> 400? >> That's the one stat I read. This is I can try to remember the case was cuz there was one woman I can't remember the case about 4 years ago where she actually was abducted, chained inside this house, and sexually assaulted and abused and and raped by this um serial rapist. That's what it was.
(40:40) Serial rapist typically have 400 victims. >> Wow. And just making sure I understand, you won't be arrested if you reported rape if you're a sex worker, would you? >> I believe not. I don't know any cop that would. Every state is different than this, and I remember I was working with California Highway Patrol years ago cuz they were trying to get their numbers up on locking away pimps and then the traffickers, right? And in order to do that, cuz here's the greatest challenge, they have to have one of these girls be
(41:09) able to testify against the pimp, against the guy who's trafficking them, which is a huge risk to life for them. And so the fear So how do you inspire someone to get over the fear of being killed for turning on the guy that's actually beating them but actually keeping them alive at the same time cuz they're trauma bonded in here? And I was telling the the California Highway Patrol task force, I said they need to trust you more than they trust him. That takes time.
(41:35) >> This isn't trafficking, but do you know the Gabby Petito case? >> Yes. >> The Gabby Petito, they just did a docu-series on Netflix I just watched, her and her boyfriend um got pulled over, and there's cameras um on the cops what they call the like yeah, there's like body cams, thank you. And so this documentary shows the body cams of them pulling these teenagers over, and apparently she grabbed the wheel and there was this big fight.
(42:01) They put her in the car, and she's hysterical. He's super [ __ ] calm. The body cams have the police officers talking to the guy being like, "Don't worry, dude. We understand." And then they took him to like a motel, protective place because he's the abused one. And then a couple of weeks later, sadly, she ends up completely murdered by him.
(42:23) And so the question with that whole case, and I'm sure I'm missing some details, so apologies if >> No, that's a good synopsis. >> But why did they believe him and trust him over her in those scenarios? Is that biasness? Like is that emotional hijacking? What is that? >> It's all those things right there. So, she's presenting as emotionally hijacked and hysterical, and he's not.
(42:46) Calm, cool, collected, thoughtful. So, they took a snapshot and they fell in love with the narrative they gave themselves right off the bat. They had confirmation bias right from the get-go. I will tell you because like in this case she actually hit him a few times and she was actually raged, you know, cuz she's full of rage because he was he was an animal.
(43:03) But here's what should have happened in any one of the scenarios where where they were together. Because her being the assaulter of him, I mean, think about this. How often have you ever heard where the woman who's actually smaller than the guy is the one doing these In other words, the guy's a victim. >> Yeah. >> Very, very rarely.
(43:26) And so here's what they should have happened. You have a deviation from the norm of what you expected as law enforcement. Here's what I'm hearing right here. I'll tell you what, guys. I'm going to keep you guys separated right now. Now, I'm going to go back. I'm going to now do a deep dive.
(43:40) I'm going to call her parents. I'm going to call his parents. I'm going to start doing a deep dive and get that life arc of behavior. And what would have been uncovered was his issues he had. >> Yeah. >> He had rage issues. He had anger issues. She didn't. >> Yeah, the parents were basically warning her and things like that.
(43:55) So, if you'd made the call to the parents >> 50 seconds in a squad car, or maybe a little bit longer, a couple minutes, and I'm not I'm not blaming the cops on this, although maybe, yeah, I am. >> I mean, I am, yeah. The poor guy died. >> But they they should have done that. You should have done a deeper dive than what's being presented because master manipulators can make you feel like a million bucks in 5 seconds.
(44:15) They put on a great show. Shows fall apart over time. And how do you discover time? Well, you do a little bit of a deeper dive because if someone had such rages, you had such control freak issues that it was going to come out eventually. That's an arc of his life. His In other words, this was not a one-off because the only time you have a one-off is is a psychotic break.
(44:36) You know how rare psychotic breaks are? I mean, we're dealing with a case right now, the the mom in in Boston in Massachusetts, um the Clancy case where her as a mother has been clearly documented. She's labor and delivery nurse, great mom, great wife, great caretaker for the kids. And all of a sudden, after years of all these things, psychotic break kills three kids.
(44:57) That is a psychotic break. When it deviates so far from a norm, from everything that's been done. We have, you know, mis-medications in there, 13 medications. You know, all these things come on the bear to show that we have a such a massive deviation from the norm because we looked at all the way back to for her childhood, all the way now.
(45:12) What kind of human being is she? So, that is what most likely a psychotic break. Again, trial's still out. We'll see. But, now in Gabby Petito's case, no. This is his life arc. There's no psychotic break. This is a broken individual. You know, same thing with Brian Kohberger, the Idaho murders. This is a This is not a break.
(45:31) He's abused women his entire life. Rex Heuermann, abused women his entire life. So, there's an arc that all these people do their entire lives. The greatest thing I think that protects us now as a society and as women, we have the ability to do a lot of research. >> Right. Mhm. Yeah, that's so true. And that story just broke my heart so much, especially when I watched the body cam stuff.
(45:49) >> Did not have to happen. >> Oh, god. And then hearing the way the police officer was like really buddy-buddy with him, it was just so heartbreaking. And there's so many stories out there, Robin, where I've just had either personally or through my community, you know, sharing their stories where there's this moment their partner has been extremely violent.
(46:07) Let's say they called the cops or the neighbor calls the cops. You're very emotional, but the guy's cool, calm, and collected. So, the cops show up, they see that he's super calm, she's frantic, and so they're like, "Sorry, dude. Like, we you know, feel sorry for you." We just keep getting dismissed. So, now let's go to the >> Lindsay Clancy, thank you.
(46:24) >> we were just on about. >> Yeah, thank you. Um there's like controversy around this. If you don't mind helping me understand cuz I think this will help a lot of women watching right now. >> Yeah. So, the Lindsay Clancy case, the one I just referenced, um this is this is what's going on. It's the middle of trial right now.
(46:42) Um mother of three in Massachusetts and a labor and delivery nurse. Um by all accounts, great healthy relationship with her parents who have stood by her side. Her husband, now ex-husband who's now remarried, still standing by her side. And she's journaled about how hard it's been being a mother and but still stuck with it. Amazing, good, hard work and life arc of healthy, strong relationships.
(47:06) And she had been uh diagnosed on previous births with postpartum depression. Postpartum depression is one in 10 women suffer from postpartum depression, which can become suicidal, which can also uh manifest sometimes in thinking of doing harm to children. All these things. The other behavioral tell tempo tell with her was extremely transparent with all her issues she's going on with.
(47:28) She's telling her health care providers. And so, she's not arguing against killing her three kids by strangulation and then attempted suicide. She slashed her neck, slashed her wrist, and then jumped out of the window of their house. >> I didn't know that. >> She paralyzed herself from the waist down.
(47:43) She's paralyzed for the rest of her life. She claims full accountability for killing her three kids. Um what they're wishing for in in the trial is to be placed in mental health psychiatric in prison for the rest of her life. And the prosecution's trying to put her in general population the rest of her life. Either way, not trying to get out of jail, took full accountability because she was broken.
(48:04) No one was really talking to each other is what the defense is claiming. 13 medications, actually they just had the toxicology report come back. All those medications were in her system as well. Her journals come back. The prosecution's claiming that she was tired of being a mother, that she was overwhelmed with being a mother, she just wanted to stop being a mother and end it all.
(48:24) So, here's where behaviors comes in. Here's how I assess these things. When I first see the case, the first thing I do as a behaviorist in any situation is like, all right, let me look at her life and her relationships, immediate family. Solid. Husband standing by her side. And watching his testimony, he knew the ins and outs of her medications, the schedule she's on, all these things.
(48:43) So, he had depth of field on what she's going through. And even though they're divorced now, still standing by her side. He lost his three kids, too. So, you start seeing that. I see the parents. The parents are paying for um um Kevin Redington's her attorney. 75-year-old, amazing, amazing defense attorney.
(49:01) They are going bankrupt and broke paying for her defense. Standing by her side, was there to help take care of her kids. Her circle of friends standing by her, standing by her. Prosecution, no one standing by them. Claiming that these things. Here's the other thing as a behaviorist you look at. They claim that she wanted to get out of these things cuz she gave up on life, she gave up on her kids, she hated being a mother.
(49:19) Nowhere in her journals or in her life has anyone ever said Lindsay Clancy ever gave up on anything in the past. So, in other words, she went from never give up to a hard work to give up today? When you have a spike like that, psychotic event. One in a thousand is psychotic event for a postpartum psychotic event, and also she's suffering from bipolar.
(49:39) It's that rare, that unusual. There's only like one or two cases that actually can claim not guilty by reason of insanity. And so, what we look at behaviorally is, what's the life arc of behavior, and where's the deviation? There was no deviation. It's so controversial because you have the science side on the medications, on the postpartum psychosis, and then you have the side is doesn't matter she made a choice to kill her kids.
(50:02) And so, that's why it's so controversial. Is that did she intend to do it and pre-plan it, which prosecution is claiming to get out of life as a mother or as defense claiming a psychotic break because of mismanagement of her health care? >> Wow. Thank you for breaking that down and exactly how you looked at it. That was fascinating. >> Here's one more thing I'd like that I'm I'm sorry because I was >> please.
(50:23) >> So, I'm going to do a little non-verbal as too. If you watch the testimony in the in the courtroom, there's another thing to compare and contrast when you're looking at human behavior. Kouri Richins, you know, the important mother that killed her husband and wrote a children's book. You watch her in the courtroom, she's performative.
(50:39) She'll have tears and then she'll look around, who's looking at me? Oh, oh, oh, looking around, who's looking at me? She's doing it for performance. Alex Murdaugh, the Murdaugh case in South Carolina. Performative tears, blubbering, then looking around. Then you also have the case of Donald Adelson, the one that was a murder for hire of her ex-son-in-law.
(50:55) She hired a hit man and she's actually serving life in jail. And so, you see and she's 75 years old. She performs in the courtroom and then looks around, who's looking at her? So, you have performative and then you have real. Real is looking at Lindsay Clancy in the courtroom. Pre-planned would be performative to try to get out of something.
(51:14) In the courtroom, she's completely collapsed onto herself. When they start going through some of the evidence and the testimonies, you see her completely collapsed in her wheelchair, shaking and bawling, never performative, never looking around, completely collapsed as a human being. With the most telling thing to me is um her defense attorney is holding her hand.
(51:39) >> Oh, wow. You don't get to see that often. >> No. Treating her like a daughter. >> Mhm. >> In that courtroom. Relationships, relationships, relationships. Now, can we find out more things along the way that they'll go through the trial that would shift, you know, my thoughts and opinions? Sure. But as of right now, everything I'm seeing is congruent with psychotic break.
(51:59) >> Wow. I'm so in two minds because it's like I think obviously murder is never okay and especially with children. >> Right. 100%. 100%. >> They just can't defend themselves. That is utterly horrendous. But then also the other side to me is when a woman's really freaking struggling to that extreme where you're desperately trying to just feel good about yourself and you can't find a way out.
(52:21) That [ __ ] is serious as well. >> This is a case about mental health for women. And that's what this is about. Getting women the help they need from the clinicians that they're they're put their trust in openly and honestly. Not She didn't hide anything. And they mismanaged it and she wound up killing her kids. >> Oh my god, my heart breaks.
(52:37) Oh, my heart breaks. Okay. Um in that case, it is just so hard. So, thank you for sharing it. I'm now thinking about the woman that ends up being sadly the one that ends up being murdered by the husband. >> Yes. >> You don't think about it. Maybe he yells sometimes, but then he freaking flips a switch. Um I know you said that sometimes a psychotic break actually happens like it can happen for weeks and months.
(53:09) So, are there things that we can even look out for to know if our partner is going in that direction? >> I can't think of any. But here's the good news. I haven't covered a case yet where there's been a psychotic break of a man doing that to his wife. It is a It is a build that all the warning signs are there.
(53:27) So, I don't know the exact stat on that. I just know in the last four or five years I've been doing a lot of commentary on it. Um I haven't had a case where there's a psychotic break. For example, um Nick Reiner. >> Who's Nick Reiner? >> Nick Reiner, uh Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner's uh son. Right out here. >> Uh-huh. >> So, here's a great example.
(53:44) >> don't know the story, so >> All right, so Rob Reiner, um, the the um >> When Harry Met Sally. >> Yes, and the the the great the great Hollywood director, a great great human being, um, very very altruistic, a lot of generosity in his life. Him and his wife, um, had kids. Their son, Nick, has had problems his entire life.
(54:09) Life arc of drug addiction, I think it was six rehabs he went through that his parents paid for, lots of counseling, lots of everything. And Nick his entire life saw himself as a victim, lots of addiction problems, tons of unhealthy relationships, uh, went to, um, Conan O'Brien's Christmas party, and, uh, just really weird behavior, very offensive, very off-putting, and he goes home that night, has a rage moment, kills both his parents, slashes their necks.
(54:35) Um, there's an individual that had a life arc of this coming. All the signs were there. And because of kindness, because of no loving critics or or or being able to really see the forest through the trees that your son had the potential to do violence against you, even though he's shown violence in the past, you discarded it.
(54:58) You discounted it, and they wound up dead for it. And he still sees himself as the victim. >> Oh, he does. >> That is not a psychotic break. On the flip side, you have Clancy, who sought sought help, transparent about help. I'll do what you tell me to do, and then has a psychotic break. No arc of her life ever doing violence or anything against anyone.
(55:19) Nothing but good healthy human being, good healthy relationship, good mother. So, that's the difference. >> That makes a lot of sense. But, when you're looking at, let's say, the arc and seeing how, like, their past and if there's any, uh, common threads, what about the people that have the best masks? So, you get the doctors and the psychologists.
(55:35) These are now people who are potentially nefarious and dangerous, and they're using their position and their title to somewhat mask their true I'm going to say bad intentions. I know you don't see anything anything is good or bad. >> that I'm with you on that one. Those are bad intentions. >> Yeah, okay. So, how do you then even look at their art that can potentially signal to me that they are this person, they just aren't showing it like Rob Reiner's son? >> It's It's It's tough but doable.
(56:02) Um you know, the first thing I look at is I look at reviews online. >> Oh. >> There's wobbles. >> Really? But you look on my channel, you get from one comment that's like, "I love this. This is the best episode ever." And then you get the next comment that's like, "This is the worst. I hate this person." >> you take those comments and then you compare them to other people in their field.
(56:21) >> Oh. >> So, now we have a we have a comparison to see a blip from that or is is Lisa a blip from this or they part of the norm or is it a deviation? So, that's just one data point and then when you see those blips, just look at those reviews because there is always leakage. You just have to find where they're having their leakage.
(56:39) Professionally, you're right, it's much it's much easier for them to hide these things but all these things give me data points. And if I got data points of someone healthy potential red flags, a little bit of smoke, and I have other choices, why not go to the other choice first, right? Instead of doubling down and well, maybe it's just okay, maybe it's just a bad day.
(57:00) Um but the first I'm looking at is the people in their lives. Good example that is Lori Daybell Vallow. This is the the cult mom that killed her two kids uh a couple years ago because she claimed they're possessed by evil demons and that she was freeing them from this earth and these evil demons that they had. The Clancy case where everyone's standing on her side >> Mhm.
(57:17) >> because of the human being she was on that case with Lori Daybell Vallow, no one did. Everyone said she's a nutcase. Everyone said she's a horrible she was. And so, all the data points are always there. You You have to look because no one can hide everything from everyone all the time.
(57:36) There's always going to be at least a gap of time. The Rex Heuermann case, the Gilgo Beach murder guy we talked about. He hid in gaps of time where he sent his family away on vacation. What Elsa should have done, the ex-wife and the daughter, what specifically were you doing during this time? How did you fill your time? There's a gap of time in there in behavior that's a little off-putting.
(58:00) Not necessarily you're saying he's a serial killer, but what's that all about? >> That's so true. I'd love to interview the BTK's wife because there was a documentary done by the >> His daughter's done a lot of work. Yeah, she's she's great. She's done a lot. She's done a lot. >> Well, then the question I have with that whole case of BTK, bind, torture, kill, um he was discovered like what was it? 20, 30 years later? Like after he'd done it because his daughter got a DNA test and they matched things.
(58:24) Um she says that he had the bowling bag by the door. And he would get angry. He's like, "You never touch this bag." And so everyone just knew, "You don't touch dad's bowling bag." He never bowled. >> Right. >> So, my question is, are they asking the questions or is it dad's got temper? So, you just don't ask dad questions.
(58:44) >> Right. Yes, both. They use fear. Fear is the motivator for don't do behavior and then they normalize that so it's just part of the normal noise in the background. >> Cuz thinking about this one that you were saying when she's on vacation, maybe she didn't even ask him what we doing while we were away. >> He set the baseline of what the expectation was.
(59:01) You don't ask about that. You also don't go in his room downstairs. >> All right. >> He had a secret room. That that bedroom of his, that was his kill zone. Uh you don't go in the bedroom. Uh that's my room. Don't go near it. And so >> one. >> And when you have a daughter, cuz his daughter um Victoria grew up in that house, it's just the way things are.
(59:15) >> Yes. >> And so you get you get all these abhorrent behaviors normalized over time so they don't stand out as wobbles to them. On the outside looking in, major wobbles. >> Not that it's the same at all, but I remember growing up I'm Greek Orthodox and I remember asking my grandmother um something about God.
(59:30) Like, "Why do you think God exists?" Sacrilege. She lost her [ __ ] Like, this little old Greek woman was like, "God exists, and that's it. You never ask." From that day on, I never bloody asked. Because you get told when you're young enough, and you get almost shamed for asking. So, um I know it's a bit deviation, but it's somewhat the same thing from that girl, right? Like, you're told you never go in that room.
(59:54) You may be asked one question once. Your dad smacks at you, you never ask again. >> Do not be a critical thinker around non-critical thinkers, because they will come at you. >> Oh, that's a good note. >> Um so, another great author I love, Noah Harari. Um >> Oh, yes. >> Yeah, Sapiens, Homo Deus, and Nexus. Um Nexus is talks about the age of communication with human beings.
(1:00:11) And he did a great piece in their book about how we communicate as a species, and the most healthy of us actually have what I call self-correcting mindsets, where we learn, and we explore, and we get better. Um non-self-correcting are the non-critical thinkers who say, "It's this way. This is the doctrine, never change it, and this is the way it is done." This is the scientific method.
(1:00:29) And also, part of it is the Socratic method of asking questions. You know, a lot of times people aren't doing it. So, actually, you know the only place the Socratic method is actually taught for asking questions is law school. >> Oh. >> In other words, curiosity is not taught. >> Huh. Uh-huh. You're told in school.
(1:00:44) You're not >> Yes. It's beaten out So, we're born, another great book on Cracking the Curiosity Code, on Diane Hamilton. She um talks about curiosity, and we're born with it. It's it's a survival mechanism as a species have curiosity, because that's how we learn. It's why we don't have speech when we're born, cuz we don't have a frame of reference.
(1:01:01) We become curious about things, we point to things, our parents tell us what it's called, and so we now absorb. And so, that's how our curiosity is fueled. It's good until about the age of six or seven, when we start annoying the living hell out of our parents, and they tell us, "Shut up. Shut up.
(1:01:12) Shut up. You ask too many questions." So, it gets suppressed. And And so, it's suppressed at school, too, because we're being told what to do. We're told to do these things. This is the right way and a wrong way. We're being judged on what to do and what's right or wrong. So, that way of questioning being curious, which is really the fundamental thing that keeps us safe cuz really we're genetically coded to be curious for our safety, security, prosperity, and our survival.
(1:01:40) Yet, it's beaten out of us and and any institution, cult, political I don't care what it is. Anyone that tells you to stop asking questions is one to be fearful of. >> The worst thing can do as a behaviorist or as a human being is to fall in love with the outcome that you want. >> Oh, yes. >> And that's what we do and this is what we do with our women in our relationships is that you fall in love with the idea of what you want and you think you can make it happen and you're going to ignore everything else.
(1:02:08) >> Yeah. I love the idea of asking questions and you actually I've teased the audience enough about the antidote for the emotional hijacking. So, the antidote is you say you have to ask yourself three questions. What did I observe? What did I infer? And what is their point of view? So, if you do those three questions, is it that you're able to see things without the biasness that you come to the table with? >> Yeah, that's the point of all this is is those three things help us be present without that agenda. What did I observe?
(1:02:38) In other words, what did I see without trying to see? Based on that, what did I infer? In other words, do I still have some leakage coming in there of what I thought I saw? >> Oh, yes. >> Instead of what I did see. And then, the last one. >> Yes. Um I'd actually like to move on to I have a stat.
(1:02:56) The National Domestic Violence Hotline estimates it takes an average of seven attempts to leave. Um talk to me about paralysis analysis. Maybe I'm making it up. Is that potentially why sometimes we don't want to see red flags because then we have to act on it, but then we get paralyzed to act on it? >> So, there's a couple different things going on there.
(1:03:13) Seven attempts before we actually leave because I I believe most of that is trauma bonding going on there. They know your triggers that get that dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins flowing in your brain. And as soon as you walk away and you don't have it coming from anywhere else cuz you're now you're on your own for the first time, you're scared. Fear is the motivator.
(1:03:31) There's no way to take care of yourself because you didn't have a healthy family structure, not by your choice because they isolated you from everyone. You get sucked back in. There's no other way. And that's why it's so hard to take seven times to do it. And during those seven times, they're trying to establish escape routes.
(1:03:46) So, always maintain healthy relationships outside the one you have because you need loving critics in life. And what was the second part? >> And then it was like the paralysis analysis. >> Yeah, so what happens then too is we never think we have enough data in or enough information in to make the good healthy choice.
(1:04:02) And so we think I just need a little bit more. I need a little bit more time. Let me just try this. Let me try this. Let me do this. Let's see what the result is of this. No, a red flag, red flag, red flag. And if you got three to four red flags, and you think you need to see five or six before you walk out the door, you're probably wrong.
(1:04:18) You know, I always relate human beings and our behavior like the Titanic. You know, a big ship, slow to move. You know, so here's the Titanic. And here's you as a human being. You're going down. And all of a sudden you see this big big fricking iceberg in front of you. You see it, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I got to avoid the iceberg.
(1:04:38) Hard over." Little teeny rudder. That's us. Lean little teeny rudder is our awareness of I got to change course. You're still going to hit the damn iceberg, though. Cuz human beings change very, very slowly. So here's you thinking, "I can change this person." If they're aware enough, they might be. But that behavior is not going to go from zero to 100.
(1:04:57) James Clear, Atomic Habits. It's about zero to one or two miles an hour at best. Repeat it over time. That's the same thing for us. Be present. See the world free of an agenda. Question and be curious about things that look different. Do a little bit more inquiry. Seek transparency where you're a little fearful, where you feel a little insecure.
(1:05:14) >> I love that. That's so clear. So, in your career, oh my god, you must have had a lot of hard conversations. Someone may try to dominate the conversation, put you down, insult you. How would you handle those types of conversations? >> Now, I'm going to go back to the whole arch of how we have a conversation, and you said hard conversation. I I love redefining words.
(1:05:37) I don't see conversations as hard or challenging conversations. >> Oh. >> What makes a conversation in someone's mind hard or challenging is if you're going to use your subjective opinion of what it is they are and who they are. So, that's an opinion. I don't have conversations about opinion.
(1:05:54) I have a conversations about actions and and deeds. And so, you make it about behavior. You know, it's funny, I didn't even learn this in the FBI, I learned this in the Marine Corps. So, way back when before I got in the FBI as a Marine Corps officer and as a Parris Island, South Carolina, and I was in charge of boot camp, but I had 16 drill instructors, 16 of the world's most impressive human beings forging young boys into men in the Marine Corps.
(1:06:16) And you can imagine, these are pretty intense individuals and human beings. My job, I was mid-20s and these guys are in their 30s and sometimes 40s, four times as much experience, twice as old as me, and I was in charge of them. And my job is to keep them from doing stupid [ __ ] to recruits that is going to end their career and hurt someone, right? >> Okay.
(1:06:33) >> So, how do you counsel someone and have a challenging conversation with a Marine Corps drill instructor? >> That's a good question. I have no idea. >> You make it about their behavior. I don't say, "Listen, I think I think what you did was wrong. I felt this was not appropriate. I felt like you you you didn't treat me with respect.
(1:06:52) " These are typical words we use that are challenging conversations. They'll they'll go nowhere cuz now you're arguing context, and you can never argue context with a human being. That's not what I think. Here's what I think. And we get a battle of context. >> Oh, yeah. >> Instead of say, "Listen, Staff Sergeant, here's exactly what I saw you do.
(1:07:08) Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Tell me, is that congruent or incongruent with the condition of your employment? Here's the standard. >> That's so good. Uh-huh. >> Here's how you broke standard. What are you going to do about it from now? >> Mhm. >> And so, in a relationship, say, "Listen, my my wife and I said this we've been married we'll be 34 years next year.
(1:07:28) " >> Wow, dude, that's amazing. Congratulations. >> And she she gives me credit for one thing, only one. When we got married, I said, "Never go to bed angry. We have a discussion dialogue." Although, I've heard some people say, "We go to bed angry all the time." Because something to talk about.
(1:07:41) Right, gives us something to talk about in the morning. >> Mostly, I can just sleep and not be as annoyed. >> I I literally saw you say that, that's why I brought it up. I was watching one of your podcasts. And so, but that was our condition. And so, that's condition of our relationship. We make it about observed behavior. Here's exactly what you said.
(1:07:59) You know, let's talk about what was said, not what I feel about it or anything like that. Let's talk about the words, actions, and deeds. Is that congruent with a healthy relationship or unhealthy relationship? And so, I just talk about words, actions, and deeds. Is this what a healthy relationship does and how they communicate or not? So, now if something deviates, cuz again, in relationships, you can never anticipate all the stupid things people say and do cuz you have such close exposure over periods of time and everything. But as
(1:08:25) something approaches and something comes up, you go back to, "Hey, is this a new condition we need to put in the relationship of of how we talk and treat each other in public? Because here's the word you said. Here's the reaction I had to those words. It did not make me feel whole. It did not make me feel seen.
(1:08:42) It made me feel little in front of your friends. It made me feel worse than than such and such. Is that the way you intended me to feel? And you just have a conversation about behaviors. Not about what your interpretation of those behaviors are. >> That sounds so amazing, but what if the other person doesn't abide by the same rules? So, they're just obnoxious.
(1:09:01) They're rude. They're demeaning to you. >> Well then we have an unhealthy relationship, don't we? And why you in it? >> So then what would you do? Just get up and walk away? >> We have a conversation about an exit strategy. So listen, I I romanticized this. I thought this relationship was more than it was. I thought the way you felt about me was different than it actually is as demonstrated by this.
(1:09:21) I'm not faulting you for it, that's on me. Um we need to move on. You're not going to change another human being. It ain't going to happen. It's a lie we tell ourselves cuz we we have this beautiful word called hope. Hope destroys relationships a lot of times cuz I hope they'll get better. Why would they? Remember, past is prologue.
(1:09:40) If they don't have a critical life crisis that happens to them to change behaviors, how do alcoholics change behavior? Rock bottom. Something tragic that happens in their life that they say they need to make a choice to make a a difference in their lives and then the rudder shifts and now it's a slow crawl back out.
(1:10:00) But it's only the choice that they can make. If they did it once, twice, or three times, likelihood of continuing without a major life crisis changing that that trajectory of that big Titanic, slim to none. So then ask yourself, what's making you stay? What do you fear by leaving? >> I love that. That was so good.
(1:10:21) Um I'd love to go over your code of trust. So going almost back to elicitation, so you talk about the code of trust and you talk about a story where there was a guy called Steve and you're sitting at a restaurant. >> Right. So this was probably my my first true recruit, not recruit, my first true confidential human source meeting.
(1:10:41) So my Jedi master, we'll call him Jesse, he said, "All right Robin, I got a potential confidential human source coming in. Hey new guy, want to come along with me." And so Jesse asked me to go out with the new potential source meeting. We got this beautiful nice steakhouse on the Upper West Side um right across the Intrepid Air and Space Museum. And nice back corner booth.
(1:11:00) And I said, all right, so what's going on? We're going to do spy stuff. I'm going to ask him a lot of questions. He goes, here's what I want you to do, Robin. Shut up and sit down and don't say anything. It's like, okay, I'll do the best I can. So anyway, um Sky Steve walks in and all I knew about Steve was that he had some information about having some access to one of our intelligence officers in the city.
(1:11:20) And that's all I knew. And I figured we're going to have a quick meeting, going to talk about spy stuff, see what he knew about the intelligence officer, and maybe drop some names of who he can put us in contact with and that kind of stuff. I thought it was going to be just the facts, man, just like you see on TV and kind of go down a list of questions.
(1:11:35) Anyway, the guy Steve walks in, Jesse stands up, shakes his hand, says, hey, um so sorry it took so long to get here. I knew you had some traffic. What was that drive in like for you? And so Steve's now talking about coming through the Holland Tunnel instead of the Lincoln Tunnel because of the traffic.
(1:11:50) And he's talking about all these things. And then then without even batting an eyelash, Jesse then says, hey, so, you know, any more challenges this week? What's going on? And so then Steve starts talking about the divorce he's going through, child custody issues he's going through, they've got a home inspector coming in, going to put the house up for mortgage, and they've got to split the proceeds.
(1:12:07) And I'm sitting here listening. This has been going on for like an hour, hour and a half. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering when we're going to get to you know, the real stuff. And before we even started, the next thing that really threw me is as he sat down, you know, Jesse then looks at us, hey, so sorry again for the hard time getting here.
(1:12:27) This won't take too long cuz Robin's got to go meet his daughter, he's got to pick her up at a at a recital somewhere. And so that's what brought up the topic of the kids. He's talking about his kids and the child custody. And I'm like, this is going This is like talking to some like one of your neighbors. And I I was like, and also, I wasn't allowed to talk. So I'm not saying anything.
(1:12:44) Jesse was saying like a word here. He's like, tell me more about this. What was next? And then I'm seeing Steve unload, unload, unload. And literally, we had like three, five questions maybe to ask. This we're there for a couple hours. The waiters are like looking at their watches wondering to shovel us out.
(1:13:00) And before it came to the very end, again, no questions asked, Steve leans across and looks at Jesse and goes, "Hey, by the way, what can I do for you guys? You've been so kind. You know, I I really appreciate you allowing me to unload with what's going on in my life. I tell you, I feel a lot better.
(1:13:16) So, what can I help you with?" And Jesse says, "Well, you know, we're curious about maybe something having to do with these intelligence officers." And then Steve then volunteers, "Well, yeah, you know what? I'm in touch with this guy, this guy, and this guy. If you're interested, I can make an introduction for you or anything you want." And I'm sitting here saying to myself, "Wow, we just recruited this guy without even asking him a question.
(1:13:32) He recruited himself." >> Wow. >> Why? Because he made it all about him. >> Mhm. That's so good. I love that story so much. I really do. I wrote like a bit of a list of like a couple of things that you guys did for anyone. And it's kind of like this list always goes two ways. It's when you really want to be genuine, you want someone to trust you because you really want to bond with them. This is great.
(1:13:53) But also, I always think of it from the other side, like the dark side, like these are the tactics that someone may use on you to try and get you to trust them. So, um I believe you guys established a time constraint. >> Yes. >> Um and then be generous with attention, patience, benefit of the doubt, things like that. Validate before you inquire.
(1:14:09) Um and what is specifically are you validating? Them as a person? Their beliefs? What is that? >> Thoughts, opinions, ideas. In other words, validation is not saying I agree with you, it's being curious about what it is you're saying. So, all those things you just mentioned. So, here's where they are. That's the story.
(1:14:24) Here's what was going on. John established a time constraint when he said, "Robin's got to go pick up his daughter in a couple hours." So, we had some some commonality with with kids and time constraint. You you you have situation awareness, so you feel in control, you feel safe. The validation came from he's validating and saw his opinions, ideas.
(1:14:40) He wasn't saying, "Dude, you're getting divorced. What are you, nuts?" I mean, it wasn't it wasn't sitting in judgment of anything he was saying, either verbally or nonverbally, being generous with time, actions, and resources in terms of his challenges, priorities, and pain points in life.
(1:14:55) Matter of fact, the thing I I often get asked, I think we all get asked as we get older, is, "What could you tell your 20-year-old self that you know now that you didn't know then?" My 20-year-old self, if I could said, "Robin, stop paying attention to solving your own problems, to those great relationships you have.
(1:15:09) Take those great relationships and learn to be a problem solver for them." >> That's amazing. There's always a flip side though that it's going to be hard to swallow, but let me just give it a chance. A lot of us women are so outside focus. We're trying to help the other person, and we're never inside ourselves. We're never trying to if we're about us, yeah.
(1:15:32) >> So, it's never a a one or the other. >> Oh, I get it. >> Dichotomy and balance. Jocko Willink, left balance, extreme ownership, dichotomy of leadership. Everything in life is a dichotomy. We can't experience the great things in life unless we haven't experienced the really horrendous, cuz then it's all just vanilla. Same thing.
(1:15:48) So, for me, my balance was me, me, me, my problems, didn't understand you had problems. I had to bring it into balance. If you are an individual that has spent so much time out of balance because you're a giver, giver, giver, you're a problem solver for others that you've neglected your own, bring it back into balance. When the well is empty, there's nothing you can take from.
(1:16:08) My well was empty because I didn't build it up with being a resource for others. Now, on the flip side, if you're the type of person that has a full well, >> you need to take. >> It's okay to take from the well. You sensitize the world towards your challenges, priorities, and pain points. If you have a healthy, strong relationship and a full well, >> Mhm.
(1:16:25) >> you can have a plethora of people coming in willing to be a resource and help you. And here's the key to to judge it as a healthy relationship or not. They'll do so without an ask. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Cuz if someone comes in to be a resource for you, but there's an agenda of an ask, well, then it's coming with a condition.
(1:16:42) >> Yes. >> Yeah. That's so true. Um Okay, so you said validate before you inquire. This is all the things that you did with Steve that we can either possibly get manipulated by um use sympathy or assistance. The power of the word if. >> Yeah, in this case we gave Steve sympathy assistance by the gift of an ear.
(1:17:02) You know, it's a beautiful thing to do. Um and then what was the last one again? >> Um Oh, so it was basically the power of the word if. >> If. Oh, I love the word if. So, empower people with a choice. The word if gives people that choice. So, say Steve then offer himself as a resource for us with a name.
(1:17:18) Say, Steve I've had a great conversation with you. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it took a time away from what you're doing with with your family and all the challenges you're dealing with life. If you're comfortable with it, I'd really appreciate if you'd be able to do this, this, this because here's the result we could do in in the world of national security if that's something you're comfortable with.
(1:17:34) If you're not comfortable with it, please let me know if there's something I could do to mitigate that comfort for you so we can move forward. And also, if you prefer not to have contact with me, again, I'll completely leave you alone. That entire conversation dialogue made an ask, but the ask was completely about you.
(1:17:50) I offered someone an opportunity to do something patriotic if that's a priority of theirs. I validated that they're dealing with a lot of challenges in life. I validated the fact that this might make them feel uncomfortable and if it does, let me know. And I offered them path forward either to help or not help and completely fine with our relationship either way.
(1:18:05) >> That was so good. It was so good. So, the power of if. >> If. >> I love it. Um and then lastly Well, you say don't really say why, but there's there there are conditions. Yeah, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, talk to me about that and what that does to us. >> Yeah, um and I don't just discard why all the time cuz Simon Sinek wrote a great book, Start With Why.
(1:18:23) >> Yeah. >> And why is the overarching a mission statement as I call it. You know, if you understand your why in life, that's a great thing that you know, as as a great entrepreneur like you and your husband, you have to understand that why of the destination you're going to. >> 1,000%. >> But after that one why, it's fueled by the what's.
(1:18:40) What specific actions can I take to get us to that point? >> Mhm. >> And also, the why underneath can be very judgy. >> Mhm. >> It can actually set people's insecurities off off flare in a foot because if you say, "So, why did you do it that way?" >> Yeah. >> We could get very defensive and now we get subjective context going and we start arguing why.
(1:18:59) >> I actually have a study here. A landmark study by forensic psychologist analyzed over 800 real interrogation recordings of terrorism suspects. And what it found is that the tough aggressive interrogation made suspects clam up. The interrogators who built rapport, warmth, respect, no judgement got far more real intelligence on terrorists who are literally trained to say nothing.
(1:19:23) >> Yeah. George Piro is the FBI agent that interviewed Saddam Hussein. >> Oh. >> He was the only individual had access to Saddam Hussein and that's exactly the attack angle that George Piro took. >> Oh, really? >> They formed a relationship and and they formed a friendship and that's how it worked. >> Oh, [ __ ] I didn't know that.
(1:19:38) >> Yeah. And you know, going back to the first person who's documented to have done this, Hanns Scharff, the interrogator, World War German interrogator. He elicited information from all the downed Allied pilots by creating a relationship. >> Oh, wow. >> And that's the guy that we'd think is a German interrogator during World War he's going to rip your fingernails out and this guy was completely opposite.
(1:19:59) >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, think about this. So, use the terrorism scenario right there. So, say I'm an interrogator and say you're a terrorist. If I come into a room, we don't have a relationship, we don't have rapport, we don't have time and I say, "Why did you do that?" >> [laughter] >> I'm not saying a word. >> As opposed to I mean, just think about the impact of saying, "Why did you do that?" in a very especially if it's incongruent with the art it's very judgy as opposed to >> judged.
(1:20:21) >> "What was the outcome you were seeking?" You keep it to the what cuz why engages the emotional brain? What engages the pragmatic problem-solving brain? So, I like to and so if I want to bring someone back also from the emotional hijacking and uh and the confirmation bias, I ask very specific questions, not subjective questions.
(1:20:42) It's like, you know, what was the outcome you're seeking? What behavior is supporting it? Is this the behaviors we need for healthy relationships? Same thing in every situation. I always go to what questions. >> Yes. I don't have an actual accurate study, but I'm going to guess 99% of us in relationships just go up to partners and why would you do that? >> Right. So, take a second.
(1:20:58) So, anytime you get emotionally hijacked, it's an opportunity to do what I call a science experiment. Because you know what the result will be if you do it that way cuz you've done it that way a million times. You know an argument's ensuing. That's why we That's why we consider it a challenging or tough conversation. >> Mhm.
(1:21:11) >> It's cuz you are anticipating a fight. >> Oh, yes. >> Here's how you don't make it a fight. Don't make it a fight. Ask a what question. >> Mhm. >> And here's the important thing. Instead of saying, "What were you thinking?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah. They'll say, "Well, you told me to say a what?" >> You need congruence.
(1:21:28) Congruence is So, here's me judging. >> Oh. >> Here's me curious. >> Oh. >> What was the outcome you're seeking? >> Oh. >> So, when you can have excitement to learn by being curious and asking a what question, that congruency, that's what disarms of people cuz people always have a reason why they do what they do. >> Oh, yes. >> And they want to rationalize it.
(1:21:46) They want to feel good about their actions. They want you to feel good about their actions. And so, when you give them permission to not be defensive, it's amazing what starts flowing from there. >> See, that was so good. Robin Dreke, dude, this has been so amazing. Where can people go and find you? You've just released the master class.
(1:22:08) So, we're going to put all the like the links and stuff in there, but if people want to go deeper into your world, where can they go? >> Very easy. robindreke.com, r o b i n d r e e k e dot com and all things me, as I call death by Robin. Lots of words there about [laughter] me. >> [gasps] >> Guys, guys, I had so much fun today going into this guy's world was just freaking awesome.
(1:22:27) The things that he's done, the way he understands human behavior, is just next level. And let's face it, if we actually understood that and we practice and just get better at understanding and not allowing people to emotionally hijack us, can you imagine just how much confidence we can build? So, guys, go and check him out.
(1:22:42) Massive shout out and thank you to Masterclass. They gave me exclusive access to watch it before this interview so we could talk about it. But, guys, it is now out, so you got to go check out his Masterclass there. Freaking great, dude. Congratulations on that. That's so amazing. Guys, thank you so much for joining.
(1:22:57) If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life. Peace. >> [gasps] >> If you want to train with other top experts in the world on interrogation, lie detection, and building rapport, then you definitely don't want to miss this interview right here with the insanely amazing Greg Hartley.
(1:23:16) 63%. That's nearly two out of three murdered women are killed by a
Author Name:Lisa Bilyeu
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@LisaBilyeu
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvrO6rJLLZo
Title: FBI Spy Hunter: "Spot a Psychopath Before He F*cks With Your Head!" The 8 Mind Games He'll Play
Author Name: Lisa Bilyeu
Description: Thank you to today’s sponsors:
OpusClip: Go to https://clip.opus.pro/dashboard?coupo... to try Opus Clip for free today and get 50% off your first three months on the Pro Monthly plan.
Monarch: 50% off your first year with code WOI https://monarch.com
You know those times when you’re SURE you’ve finally met someone trustworthy… but a tiny voice inside keeps whispering, “Something here doesn’t add up”? Or maybe you’ve been burned badly, and now you question everyone, even yourself, just trying to keep safe.
Today I’m sitting down with former FBI Counterintelligence Special Agent Robin Dreeke: A man who literally spent 21 years professionally catching traitors and decoding deception. We break down what really keeps us stuck with manipulators, how to trust your instincts without emotional hijacking, and the hard truth about why the “creepy” feeling is almost always right, even when you’re being love-bombed.
Here’s exactly what we dive into:
The body-language and “tempo” shifts that reveal someone’s hiding something (even if they seem perfect)
Why emotional hijacking blinds us (and the 3-question antidote for clarity)
How trauma bonds keep women trapped, and how to break free before it gets deadly
What “creepy” really is (and why you must never shame yourself for feeling it)
Chapters
[00:03:04] The Corrie Richens Story: Performative Empathy and the Psychopath’s Mask
[00:10:31] “Why Did I Trust Them?”. Decoding Who to Believe
[00:14:00] First Impressions That Fool Us (and How to Get Curious Instead)
[00:15:11] Pattern Breakers: The Bryan Kohberger Case and False Normalcy
[00:17:40] “Tempo Tells” & The Spy Trap: When Agendas Shift in Real Time
[00:26:30] Positive Illusions, Emotional Hijacking & Trauma Bonding (The Gilgo Beach Murders)
[00:33:36] Situational Awareness that Actually Works: From Grocery Store Traps to Everyday Life
[00:41:26] When Law Enforcement Mistakes Calm for Innocence: The Gabby Petito Breakdown
[00:46:33] The Lindsay Clancy Case: Mental Health, Maternal Crisis & True Deviation
[01:03:10] Paralysis Analysis: Why It Takes 7 Attempts to Leave
Follow Robin Dreeke:
MasterClass: http://masterclass.com/robindreeke
Website: https://www.robindreeke.com
Instagram: / rdreeke
X: https://x.com/rdreeke
YouTube: / @rdreeke
Hidden Killers: / @hiddenkillerspod
Speaking / booking: https://www.robindreeke.com/speaking
Follow Me, Lisa Bilyeu:
Website: https://www.lisabilyeu.com
Instagram: / lisabilyeu
Facebook: / lisabilyeu
Want to search through every episode, explore specific topics, or ask me questions directly?
Check out my Dexa page: https://dexa.ai/lisabilyeu
WARNING: I will never ask for your contact info in the comments section. That’s 100% a scammer.
Transcript:
(00:00) Psychopaths are people genetically born without empathy. They can see you in pain. They can see you suffering [music] psychologically, emotionally, physically, and feel nothing about it. So, if I got pushback, resistance, or victim blaming, pointing at you who you think you are, it's not just a red flag then.
(00:21) We now have banners flying in the air. So, if I'm actually suspecting I'm dealing with someone on [music] the psychopathy scale, I'm going to test by asking >> According to the largest study ever done on lie detection with over 24,000 people, they discovered that when someone's telling us the truth, we get it right 61% of the time.
(00:42) But when someone's lying to us, we only catch it 47% of the time. So, basically, we're far better at recognizing honesty than we are at catching lies. But Robin, not you. You spent 21 years in the FBI counterintelligence getting trained liars to spill their deepest, darkest secrets. So, for anyone listening, what are some immediate things we can look out for to actually assess if we're being deceived, played, or blindsided by a traitor in our own lives? >> Yeah, those stats are pretty remarkable to think about, to contemplate. And it
(01:15) The first thing that pops in my mind is when you talk about a stat like that about detecting deception, not being able to do it is is confirmation bias. Because every human being's been burned at least once, especially if you've been burned in the heart. And then you become very wary, and you give yourself a confirmation bias.
(01:34) And especially if you're going to give yourself a confirmation bias of being deceived, being hurt or burnt by someone because they're being deceptive, they hid agendas from you, they had a secret life they never shared with you. What happens to us is we start seeking it. We start trying to find it. We start trying to identify it.
(01:52) In other words, we get really, really good tunnel vision because it's a threat, it made us feel fearful, and we have fears our motivation, we want to never feel fearful again. So, we're going to try to find that thing that allowed us to feel fear, which was deception, deceit, dishonesty. But what happens unfortunately when we focus in on that one thing, we miss everything else.
(02:12) >> Mhm. That makes sense. What if you don't know that that somebody can have bad intentions? So, you think you know them, you think you like them, and I have a quote of yours here. This is manipulation is control of your time, action, space, words, and thoughts. >> Yeah. >> Um but if we don't know that, now we're getting manipulated to believe a certain narrative that isn't actually true.
(02:34) >> So, I got to go back on a word you used, bad intentions. Bad intentions is context. >> Oh. >> Does that person think that they're have bad intentions? >> Oh, probably not. >> No, they have intentions. >> Mhm. >> Their intentions are going to be incongruent with yours. Everyone is acting according to what they think is their best interest.
(02:54) Now, granted, we have psychopaths, we have sociopaths, we have people that have with malformed brains and chemical imbalances. Those are really unhealthy people with broken brains. So, let's go first with Kouri Richins. >> Okay. >> So, Kouri Richins, I'll give a really brief synopsis. Um Kouri Richins is the mother of a couple kids, boys, who was accused and sentenced for killing her husband and then writing a children's book about it.
(03:17) >> Oh, oh yes. >> Yes, this one, right. So, here's a woman that was putting on a fake front. And so, how do we know someone's putting on a fake front? Because this is the world of psychopathy. If you say someone's a psychopath or you heard someone say that someone's psychopathic, what's that actually mean? Psychopaths are people genetically born without empathy.
(03:38) They have an inability to feel and understand the context of another human being. It it just doesn't register. In other words, they can take actions against you and they don't care. >> Mhm. >> Like they can see you in pain, they can see you suffering psychologically, emotionally, even physically and feel nothing about it.
(03:58) So you take the Kouri Richins case. So here's someone who's pretending to be a caring mother and a caring wife. What she was doing was she was caught up in her own financial disaster zone of constantly trying to do these different deals, these different schemes, real estate. Got herself in millions of dollars of debt. And the only way she saw to get herself out of debt was to put lots of life insurance policies on her husband and kill him.
(04:24) So here's what this psychopath did. So she kills him by poisoning him with fentanyl. Tried it once, tried it twice apparently, accidentally almost killed one of her kids according to the kids, including her boyfriend. So she had a side hustle going on with her boyfriend. Finally kills the husband and then she decides hmm I can write a book about it.
(04:46) So she hired herself a ghostwriter because she was unable to feel the things her kids were feeling for missing their dad. >> Oh, so she had a ghostwriter write it because she couldn't understand the emotion. >> Absolutely. And so she had a ghostwriter write the book and then she goes on talk shows. >> to make context, she wrote a book for children about losing their father.
(05:04) >> Yes. >> Uh-huh. >> About how to deal with the grief of losing their dad. And so in the book the dad is looking over them as an angel and she's there pretending because a psychopath can't do anything but pretend emotions cuz that's another congruency with most people that are going to do harm against others.
(05:20) They see themselves as victims and they're going to seek retribution, they keep score cards and they're going to get you as opposed to the other half of the population which are problem solvers. They take things as learning events, they take things as a humbling moment. I'm going to learn from it. There's a lot of skills and tools I can take so I can do better next time.
(05:36) And so Kouri Richins saw herself as a victim, wrote a children's book, got caught behind bars. >> Um before we move on, so one thing I have a question is if you were to then sit down with her and let's say she people were starting to suspect her, but no one knows yet. What are some things that you would potentially ask her to maybe start revealing the truth? >> This one's challenging.
(05:57) In general, if you're dealing with someone that is low on the psychopathy scale, you always want to start with what I thought called a golden keys of communication. You're going to seek their thoughts and opinions instead of sharing yours non-stop. You're going to talk in terms of their priorities, challenges, pain points, and friction in life instead of going on about yours.
(06:13) Going to validate them with that non-judgmental, very active curiosity. And you're going to empower them with choice cuz again, people feel safer choices. In a case like this, I start out with by asking in Kouri Richins' case if she tragically lost her husband, say, you know, "Tell me Tell me about what this journey's been for you and whatever you're comfortable with.
(06:33) " And then when she starts sharing, she's giving you nuggets about things that she's comfortable sharing. Say, "Tell me more about this. What was next? What was next?" And the entire time what I'm assessing is I'm assessing the level of healthy in her life. So, tell me about the relationship with your parents. Was it good, healthy? How was their life like? Cuz I'm trying to assess, do you have a pattern in your life of healthy relationships or unhealthy relationships? And so in Kouri Richins' case, those are the things I'd look at.
(06:58) Now, here's the challenge. If you're dealing with someone on psychopathy scale, they don't respond to empathy. They don't respond to emotional connection. Their only response is grandiosity. So, if I'm actually suspecting I'm dealing with someone on the psychopathy scale, I'm going to test it by I'm going to test by asking some questions about relationships.
(07:18) I should get some really good congruence between the things they're saying and the non-verbals I'm getting from them because Kouri's very good at saying the right words, but there's non-verbal incongruence because she's sitting there kind of score I mean, you even watch her during the trial and during the sentencing, she's making faces.
(07:33) She's scoring people. When her kids are telling her they hate her and don't feel safe with her again, she's like, "Ah, boo-boo." I mean, we had a case in the bureau years ago that we had someone that had committed espionage. They had been arrested for that espionage and this person also was being charged with being a pedophile.
(07:50) Heinous, horrible things. And so my team was called in to strategize how do we get this person to give us the names of those of those kids that were abused so we could go save kids. How do we connect with someone that we have this abhorrent feeling for? And so this person also, from what we saw, was high on the psychopathy scale.
(08:12) And so we keep coming up with "Oh, do it for the kids. You don't You care about kids." No, no, no, you can't. >> Uh-huh. >> This was you're not as good at doing this as this person because when you're appealing to someone's that's psychopathy only appeals to grandiosity. So people like the Dennis Rader, who is known as the BTK killer, >> Yes.
(08:30) >> he and other serial killers, once they start losing attention from people, what do they do? They leak out information. They use information as currency to bolster themselves. We had another strategy where someone had actually high on the psychopathy scale stolen millions of dollars and used to carry it around in a satchel with him and he'd go into a dive bar, put it by the door just for the thrill of seeing if anyone walk out that door with it.
(08:53) The only thing we found in this guy's apartment was a was a copy of the old movie Catch Me If You Can. >> Oh. Uh-huh. >> And so here he is. Our strategy for him was not to try to elicit the horrible things he did to the old people he stole the money from. It's like, "Listen, you thought you're good? You're not as good as that guy.
(09:11) " That guy actually helps the bureau. That guy actually is a consultant for the bureau now. >> And it worked? >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. That's crazy. >> wants to be better. So all these people are always going for grand, always want to be better. >> Um so going back to Corey Richards for a second, there was a moment in time where everyone trusted everyone empathized with her.
(09:29) Everyone was like hearts were bleeding because of what she went through. Then you say the story of her being in court scoffing and you can just see all the things. So talk to me about the two types of almost masks or unmasks that she's wearing. So, the first one, that's the thing that I think so many of us women watching worry about is I've trusted someone, I've given over, I've maybe given them money, I've given them time, I've given them energy, and the whole thing was [ __ ] So, what was it in hindsight you can look back and go these were the things that she did that
(09:56) allowed us public to trust in her story and narrative? >> I got my goosebumps. This is such a good question cuz I think this is such a good learning moment. >> All right, guys, we'll be right back with Robin, but real quick, if you've ever gotten value from a single Women of Impact episode, I ask you one simple favor.
(10:14) Please smash the subscribe button because one quick click to subscribe is a calling card to all women that this is a place to come and build your confidence. Now, back to the episode. >> So, what was it in hindsight you can look back and go these were the things that she did that allowed us public to trust in her story and narrative? >> I got my goosebumps.
(10:33) This is such a good question cuz I think this is such a good learning moment. There's not a human being out there that hasn't felt creepy by someone. And what's creepy? We are so good as human beings, everyone watching, everyone doing this is so good at observing. What happens is we get off sometimes with interpreting what that means that we observed or we'll disregard it, which is also bad.
(10:56) And so, creepy is really important to recognize cuz this person could say they could be saying the right things, they're making it all about me by seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of what's important to me, validating me, being curious, giving you choice, all those things. But instead of being sitting back and relaxing and just enjoying the moment and flowing with a good easygoing tempo the entire time, keeping that focus on you, all of a sudden they're pressing.
(11:18) They're pushing a timeline, they're pushing agenda. There's an incongruence, in other words, between words, actions, and deeds, and that leaves us feel creepy. Then anyone can relate this to someone who's had an unhealthy relationship with someone that made you feel creepy in only hindsight that you recognize it? No, you recognize it early on.
(11:35) You just don't trust your instinct. And so, here's what happened in Kouri Richins' case. So, someone sees her on the news because she did all these news broadcasts promoting her book. >> Joining us now is author of Are You With Me? Kouri Richins to share her three C's to helping kids cope with grief. >> They saw this incongruence between words, actions, and deeds.
(11:55) Something's off. And then they passed that off onto law enforcement because they saw it and law enforcement went one level below the story that everyone fell in love with that made sense, the poor widow that's got to raise the boys on her own. Did a deeper dive and lo and behold, she's the bad person.
(12:14) A horrendous person that killed her husband. And so, same thing in our other everyday life. When we pick up on incongruence, we can be wrong. But don't disregard that you're picking up on a wobble. I call it a wobble. A wobble from what you expect someone to do. A wobble that makes you feel creepy. There's something off with this person.
(12:31) What I want you to do is pause, reflect, and ask yourself, "What caused me to think that?" A healthy relationship should come back with transparency, same nonverbal tempo, same energy, same verbals, nonverbals, modulation. Everything should remain the same. But if I still get pushback, resistance, or victim-blaming [ __ ] you know, pointing at you, "Who do you think you are?" It's not just a red flag then.
(12:58) We now have banners flying in the air cuz now we need to step back and say, "That's an unhealthy response to what should have been a benign question." >> Okay. So, that makes complete sense. I love the way you broke it down. Now, let's almost go to the original hook though, where people felt so bad for her that she was able to fool people in the first place cuz it wasn't until we started to see the incongruencies that then the red flags and the banners started to wave.
(13:22) So, you actually say that you shouldn't trust your first impressions of people. So, when I think about this woman, how she goes on national television, I mean, I think it was Good Morning America. So, first of all, you have a credible channel already. >> Right. >> So, it's already got that credibility baked in.
(13:40) Then, I didn't even question the story. It was immediately this poor woman lost her husband, and now she's got these kids, and God bless her, she's helping so many people by writing a kids book about helping kids understand losing a parent. All of what I just laid out, not even in 1 millisecond did I even consider the story would be false.
(14:00) >> So, when we first taking that data, when the first impression on someone, we're assessing what's their baseline at. And we can we can trust that first baseline to a point, but if it's is something standing out, that's where we should get curious. And so, in Kouri Richins' case, the sto- I mean, have you ever heard of a woman writing a a children's book about a husband and a father that died? >> No, which is why I thought it was lovely.
(14:24) >> Right. Lovely, but a deviation from the norm. >> Oh. >> So, let's take a look at that. >> Oh, really? So, that would be a flag for you. >> Yeah, that was a flag for me. Not a not a not a flag like there's something wrong. It's like, that's interesting. >> Right. >> Curiosity, curiosity, curiosity, curiosity.
(14:41) It helps us critically think, you know, if there's a deviation from what we expect, do a deeper dive. Get a little curious about it. Just don't do research on TikTok. Actually look at source material. >> That's so smart. What takes you to just a whole different level to then us normal people is I heard you talking about a case, oh, I wish I could remember.
(14:58) It was some sort of serial killer case. And it was in your podcast. You guys start talking about patterns. And you're like, well, he would go and get coffee every morning. And you said, how long has he been doing that? Because what some people do is they create false patterns. >> Yeah, this is the um Brian Kohberger case, the Idaho killers.
(15:15) >> If you don't mind explaining the the >> Yeah, so, Brian Kohberger, this is the one the Idaho four um horrendous case. He had struggled uh his life earlier in life uh with addiction. He is overweight and he was he had a thing called visual snow. He had a lot of issues growing up. And when you look at the arc of his life, one of the arcs in his life was very, very unhealthy relationships with females and women.
(15:39) Matter of fact, it got to the point where when he actually went to Washington State University, all his students as when he's a teaching assistant there in the PhD program, many, many made complaints about him, about the department, how sexist he is. He was derogatory, intimidating, standing in front of I mean, he did all the things that telltale signs of an arc of someone who hates women.
(15:58) So, he eventually targeted a home and where he wound up killing um three uh three beautiful young women and uh the boyfriend of one. And what he tried to do is he tried to create a false pattern. So, he would go out at night a few times, but only for like a couple months or 6 months prior to the actual murders.
(16:21) They tried to create a pattern, but it wasn't a pattern of long time. The night there he committed the murders, he actually turned his cell phone off before he left his apartment and then after he committed the murders, thinking that, "Well, you're going to see no cell phone ping during this time period." But you didn't account for the period before and period after.
(16:37) One of the ways they caught him more multiple ways, when they actually suspected he was the killer themselves, they're uh surveilling his home in Pennsylvania, his parents' home where he's living during the break, during Christmas break. And what he was doing was he had he knew that the FBI and the law enforcement might do a trash cover, you know, to try to get his trash and try to get evidence against him.
(16:58) So, what he would do is he'd put on gloves inside the house early in the morning to bag up his trash in in Ziploc bags, his his own trash. And then when he brought the trash out, he didn't put it in his trash can, he put it in the neighbor's trash can across the across the street. Major deviation from a pattern of what normal healthy people do.
(17:19) >> That was so good. Oh my god, that was so good because um those are the things that I did I think our average person doesn't think about. Um there's another thing that I think is really helpful for us women to know that you talk about which is called temper tell spikes. So talk to me about that and have you seen them in someone that made you go from thinking they were one way to then thinking they were another.
(17:41) >> Yeah, there's a great case I use in the class on master class and it's a spy recruitment operation I was doing. So here I am uh younger guy in the FBI I had found out through using our over years and being up on someone's internet traffic and this is a known Russian intelligence officer working in New York City.
(17:59) >> Oh. >> And I found out he was going on vacation up to a ski resort during Thanksgiving this one this one year. And I'm like here's an opportunity to try to get in front of him and see if I could recruit this Russian spy. >> And he doesn't know you're an FBI agent. >> No, so here's part of the challenge of being a spy recruiter in the FBI was that by by treaty and and law it's illegal for me to approach an intelligence officer because they're saying their day job is as a diplomat but their real job is as an intelligence
(18:27) officer/spy. So I cannot approach them so I I need to create a situation where in other words no cold calling where they approach me and also I can't be FBI because then he's is automatically thinking this is an operation. I have to find myself where I'm in a position where I can be attractive to him as a potential source for him but not so attractive he's going to report it back.
(18:47) So all these kind of gyrations got to do but the first thing you got to do is you got to get in front of him. And so he's going on vacation cuz you got to create a place where he feels safe away from all his friends and colleagues up at a resort. This might be a good opportunity to get in front of him so he finds and initiates contact with me.
(19:03) I I did all my research I found out the hotel he's staying at got myself booked in the same hotel. >> Pause for a second. This story feels like what a lot of women feel men do to them where like they've got their eye on you and they're like my strategy is to get you. So everything you're laying out was very mirrored to what I think a lot of us women have gone through.
(19:22) So thank you. Now I >> Yeah, it really is interesting if you kind of do that as an overlay. If a guy is targeting you, he's going to put himself in your line of sight and create an opportunity for you to want to initiate contact with him by by becoming interesting. >> Yeah, so what did you do to him to make him interested in you? >> Coming up.
(19:39) >> You hear cops or law officers and give them instructions [music] like I want you to be vil- vigilant. Those are nice subjective words, but they never give you instructions on what that means. So here's what it is. >> If you create content, you already know the ridiculous part, which is recording a thing that actually take less time than turning that one video into clips for every freaking platform.
(20:00) And that's why we use Opus Clips right here at Women of Impact because social content matters. But I do not want me or my team spending their entire lives dragging clips around on the editing timeline. Opus Clips clip anything feature can take long-form content and help turn it into short-form clips with the cuts, captions, and formatting handled just for you.
(20:21) So instead of one great interview sitting there waiting to be edited, you can actually get more of your ideas out into the world. That's the win for me. More content, less of tedious crap that keeps you from creating it. It's super easy to use. Click the link in the show notes. Don't sleep on this, mahomie. Go and get it right now. Go check it out.
(20:39) >> So this is this is really key. So I had found out, again, lower-level priorities in this guy's life was he liked to drink and he liked to drink dull beverages. And my plan was that we're going to stay at this hotel up in Whiteface Mountain and this hotel had a bar at it I saw, so I'll probably be able to engage him at the bar.
(20:56) I knew also knew that he enjoyed traveling and getting discount travel tickets for him and his family. There's another priority. So you identify priorities. And so I get up there and lo and behold, the hotel is completely empty cuz no one goes there on Thanksgiving. Everyone's home with their families. I'm up there with another agent, his wife, who's also another agent, and their little dog.
(21:13) I was like, "Uh-oh, what am I going to do?" I got to create an environment where he approaches me and feels safe. So, what I did was I talked to the hotel manager, and I got ahead of him before the IO, the intelligence officer, came up there. And I said, "Can I rearrange the furniture a little bit to make this more homey?" And he said, "Absolutely.
(21:27) " So, I actually rearranged the furniture in a nice little circle around the fireplace in the lobby of the hotel. I went out, I got a bunch of what his favorite beer of the time was, which is Heineken. So, I put a bucket of ice, bucket of beer, sitting here, little dog running around.
(21:41) He also liked dogs, so I knew that. Little dog running around, him and his family walk in. We're sitting there around the fire. Didn't say anything. He goes up to his room. We still wait. Patience is is the crown jewel of everything in life. And finally, he comes down maybe an hour or two later. He goes right up to the bar door, shakes the door to get in.
(21:58) It's locked. He looks over at us. I hold up a nice icy cold adult beverage. He smiles, sits down, and it's off and running. And so, that's the initiation. So, during the course of three or four days up there, we gained a good relationship. We had liking. We liked traveling together. My wife, I was telling him, was a travel agent, so she could get discount tickets.
(22:20) She really? Or Oh, okay, cool. >> [laughter] >> Total fictitious. Um it's an interesting thing when you create a relationship based on a lie, you cannot sustain that relationship. So, so if you I did a lot of undercover work, and I knew it that what I had to do as soon as possible was to hand off someone to a real relationship for trust.
(22:38) Cuz once someone discovers there's been a deception, trust is gone. No relationship. I don't care what's on the line. And so, um I told him that because it's a priority of his. And one of my priorities I shared with him was discount tickets to Broadway plays, cuz my family, my wife's family had people coming in to see Broadway.
(22:55) And so, this is where our mutual liking was. Not trust. We didn't have enough time for trust. We had liking. And so, what happens was at one point he comes down and I knew he was an operations officer, but he hadn't been operational like we're sitting down, we're having these great conversations, we're talking about family, we're talking about our kids and and growing up and we're talking about wanting to go on vacation next and all of a sudden say I'm him, I'm Sergey and you're me.
(23:18) All of a sudden out of the blue he does this. Oh, uh-huh. So, Robin, is that your car out in the parking, is that your truck that you're driving? I'm watching this tempo tell cuz in other words we're we're sitting we have a tempo. We have a natural way in which we're interacting, got non-verbals, open, accommodating, smiling, some head tilts, some head nods.
(23:40) All these things are saying we're making a connection. This is the tempo I have, this is the baseline for 3 days and all of a sudden we get a a tell, we get a wobble, we get a lean in. So, what happens when we see these things? There's been a shift in mindset from the person we're engaging. Their agenda has shifted. >> Oh, okay, yes. >> And so his agenda shifted from casual >> Mhm.
(24:00) >> to operational. >> Mhm, mhm. >> He went from letting the agenda flow to I have a very specific purpose and he asked me the car I drove, is that my license plate on it? He got very very and I'm sitting here saying I'm seeing this live. I'm watching an intelligence officer complete and he had years of experience, years of training.
(24:19) These are the most highly trained human recruiters of human beings too cuz that's what intelligence officers do on the entire planet and he sucked. >> [laughter] >> But I'm sitting here just taking in data that he's presenting in the moment and when he shifted with a tempo tell, I paid attention.
(24:38) It became the most obvious thing. So, afterwards I was able to write up a report. Here's the intelligence he was going for, boom boom boom boom boom and then after he got his information, we went back casual again. >> So, you saw it but he didn't even realize he was doing it. >> he was doing it. >> All these certain tempo tells that you see quite often um as that we humans kind of do that we can keep an eye out for? >> Anytime you see a a shift >> the deviation specifically? >> and and then you just ask yourself, all right, so they're shifting an agenda.
(25:09) And are they transparent with that agenda? Or they're not transparent with that agenda? What's the purpose of the shift? What's going on their mind? Now, here's where we'll go back to first impressions. If we're typically are are been burned and we're skeptical people, we we our first impression gives us like, "Oh, he's trying to get me.
(25:26) " No, he just shifted a mindset or maybe you reminded him of someone from another relationship. Maybe you reminded him of something, "Oh, I got to go home and check my stove." And you have no idea. That's why people, if you're looking for deception, you're going to find deception. It's easier to see what shifted and what caused that shift.
(25:41) >> Sometimes it could be deception. Most of the times it's because there's a stressor that introduced something in that person's mind that caused them to shift the behaviors you're seeing. Explore it. >> That's great. I love that so much. Um, I want to read you a stat. According to research out of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we don't see our partners as they actually are.
(26:05) We see an idealized version more positively than they even see themselves. Psychologists call it a positive illusion. And here's the kicker, the more attached we are, the stronger that gets. So now I think about you're with somebody, they do these temper tells, but we don't even see it coming. We ignore the temper tell or we rationalize the temper tell.
(26:23) But now in you saying like it's a shift in their agenda, that's so powerful to me. What type of thing then can we look at? How do you assess actually what that agenda shift is? >> When you see someone, as we'll say, lose your [ __ ] um, and it's an early relationship, that's someone's unable to even keep a mask up for very long.
(26:41) And so I would say the vast majority of women that I see get victimized and everything I see in the world of true crime or anything else is because they get start getting trauma bonded. And trauma bonding is a huge thing that happens because someone Say someone puts on that that good front for you on the first date, second date, third date, or even maybe a couple months into relationship, and then they'll hit you with one of those whammies.
(27:07) And control is the number one people that these important people are doing. They're trying to control you, control your actions. And so, instead of being once a month, now we've got twice a month. Now we've got three times a month. Every time they're doing it, it's getting worse. But every time they're doing it, your rationalization is getting more because you're trying You're getting trauma bonded to those good times so that those good times that used to be like this with the bad times down here, now they're inverted.
(27:32) >> Mhm. >> And now you're caught and trapped because now there's threats coming in. There's threats of violence, threats of being thrown out because they've made you so dependent on them emotionally, physically, and psychologically that there's no escape in your own mind. Cuz, man, past is prologue.
(27:46) You start seeing it once or twice, it's not because it's being developed just now. It's been there all the way. They've masked it their entire lives or masked at least in front of you. And it's not that it's increasing, their mask of hiding it is decreasing. To go back on something that we thought about someone would say to ourselves, I must've wrong.
(28:04) >> Mhm. >> We don't like being wrong. We don't like self-doubt. So, we will start doubling down and start looking other ways because to admit we're wrong to ourselves, it's shameful, it's hurtful, it's embarrassing if we told to people how awesome this person is. And all of a sudden I got to say how how horrible they are.
(28:19) It makes us feel like we're going to be judged as an idiot. >> Oh, wow. Yes, you're right. Um now that I actually move on to something that you spoke about in your master class, which is called emotional hijacking. And I have a quote of yours, "This is the single biggest thing that gets in the way of reading people accurately." And so, I really want to talk about the antidote that you talk about about the antidote to emotional hijacking.
(28:42) So, first of all, talk about why emotional hijacking is so dangerous for us women. Is there um a case that maybe you've seen out there where someone the victim was emotionally hijacked and that could potentially have been the cause of the scenario? >> So, there's a case called the Gilgo Beach murders.
(29:00) The serial killer um Rex Heuermann was the guy's name. He was convicted not too long ago, a couple months ago. And his wife, Asa Ellerup. So, Asa and him had been together like since she was 19 or 20. She called him his knight the knight in shining armor that saved her. She'd just come out of a very abusive marriage. And he came in, swept her off her feet, he said. And he took care of me.
(29:22) He provided home to me. Her narrative, her positive emotional hijacking for him was, he's a good family man. If you listen to any of the documentaries that are on Peacock for him, he's nothing but a good family man. Even at his sentencing, that's not that's not the Rex I know. The net Rex I know is a good family man.
(29:40) Even though he's admitted to her, he killed at least eight women. >> Oh god. Eight women. >> And probably more, but he admitted to eight and sentenced for life behind bars. She now sleeps in the room he killed them in. >> So, he killed them in her house? Or in the house he grew >> in the boyhood uh house he grew up in and he was and he killed them all in his boyhood room.
(30:06) >> And now she sleeps in that room. >> Yes. Because she cannot get over the positive emotional hijacking she has towards him. >> Wow. >> Cannot let go because in her mind, he saved me when I was 19 years old. He's my knight in shining armor. But that's emotional hijacking at its prime, where she was blinded by it.
(30:28) >> Do you know if he abused her at all? >> Apparently no. >> Wow. >> So, he chose her to use her as a tool because he knew he could manipulate her because that emotion he emotionally hijacked her. He knew he could intentionally manipulate her to not pay attention to these huge gaps of time he committed these horrendous acts against these women when he sent her on vacations with their daughter.
(30:53) >> And she's thinking, "Look how sweet he is because he's just paid for us to go on vacation because he knows that I'm stressed or whatever." >> Yes. >> This is really why I really wanted you on. It's like these sorts of things where we just don't see them coming. >> Right. >> And this one in particular really hit me cuz I thought, "Oh, I definitely have that.
(31:13) " Let's say someone primes you, right? You've got to meet so-and-so. They are so nice. You'll love them. I automatically go in with a biasness of like, "Oh, I must like them." And if it's coming from someone that I respect and admire, it's almost like I don't necessarily give myself space to think for myself about how I feel about them, especially on the first impression.
(31:34) >> Yeah, it's so funny when you say that. The first one hits me as well. That is really over the top. >> [laughter] >> You know, I'm like, "Wow, what makes them so What makes that person so amazing? Let me do a deep dive on this person introducing me to." >> Oh, interesting. >> And I know cuz I do this with true crime case I do with every single relationship you deal with.
(31:52) If someone says great, beautiful, positive things, I'm excited to learn more about that person they're telling me about. Let me see it from my optic. They told me their optic and their context. Like, I love hearing why you think that this person is good for you in your life and I'm excited hear about what makes them good for you in your life.
(32:09) Now, the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to assess them to see if it's a match for my life cuz just because it's good for you in terms of your safety, security, and prosperity from your optic and perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be for mine. >> Are those the three things that we kind of normally assess then? >> Yeah, safety, security, and prosperity.
(32:25) And that helps us baseline and understand is this person safe and good for me cuz the most important thing to me always with every human being is to honor the relationship. It's There's not one thing or material gain or or really anything anywhere that someone could entice me with that's going to be worthy of compromising a good, healthy, strong relationship.
(32:47) Because when someone's being transparent and open with us and able to share these things, what's it give us? Situational awareness. When I have situational awareness, I feel I have control. When I feel I have control, I feel safe. >> Mhm. Talk to me about situational awareness because this is one thing that I'm learning more and more about.
(33:02) More from the like real practical physical side, but I just interviewed Dr. Hickey and he interviews and interrogates psychopaths. And he was telling me one of the scariest places or one of the most dangerous places in a grocery store is the greeting card section. It never would have dawned on me that that would be an unsafe situation.
(33:24) So, when I think about situational awareness, I think a lot of us I'm going to speak for myself. I'm not very aware. I think I am, but I'm not. So, what about situational awareness gives us a feeling of safety versus not a feeling of safety? >> I've really thought hard about this cuz I do a lot of uh commentary on different news um cable news channels when something happens and someone goes missing or there's been a break-in, you know, you hear cops or law enforcement give instructions like, "I want you to be vigilant."
(33:52) >> Oh. >> What they're saying is I want you to be situational aware. And so, those are nice subjective words, but they never give you instructions on what that means. So, here's what it is. Pause. Take it all in. So, for example, when you enter a new place, just take a second before you just keep barreling through on our tunnel vision to get from point A to point B.
(34:13) We're not noticing anything around us. Just take a second and take it all in. Don't try to see anything. In other words, when we try to see something, like when something bad happens, when someone does something bad, we start trying to look for a bad guy. >> Mhm. >> What's the bad guy look like? >> No. >> In books, on TV, on on true crime shows, we we start looking for a bad guy.
(34:39) But we're going to miss everyone else. You're going to miss everything else because you've given yourself a confirmation bias on that we're emotionally hijacked to think this is what a bad guy looks like. Bad guys never look like that. So in this one case where people, you know, say be vigilant because there's an escaped convict and he's wandering around this area, be vigilant.
(34:57) What that means is when you walk outside your house, take a pause before you walk right to your car, look around. Don't try to see anything. Just see what is. See people as they are without trying to place a label or meaning on it cuz here's where our brains work. Our brains do do this. They pick up when something's incongruent with what we expect.
(35:19) And that's where situational awareness comes in. So when you took it all in before you made your next move, your brain's going to see a wobble. So you might not know exactly what it is, but you're going to say something feels a little off. Now I want you to say if something feels a little off, don't jump to a conclusion cuz that's that first don't trust first impressions cuz your first impression can be wrong. Something's bad.
(35:40) No, it's just something's different. Neighbor could have come over and borrowed something without telling you know. Or a bad guy could have gone in your crawl space and left the door ajar. It's something. Something's off. Take a pause and ask yourself, what do I see that's different? And there you're going to start seeing everything.
(35:58) The day I let go of trying to see things is the day I became more observant. So the way you do this is let go of an agenda. Agendas when we have an agenda, that's our confirmation bias. Our agendas tell us what we want to see, what we're trying to see, and going to miss everything else. And so if you're in a dating world, if you're married, if you're in a relationship, if you're trying to see what's going right, you're going to miss potential red flags.
(36:24) [music] If If trying to see what's going wrong, you're going to miss what's going right. >> Yeah, God. >> [music] >> Coming up. >> Vast majority, I don't have the stat in front of me, but a vast majority of sexual assault cases are done against >> Ladies, one of the biggest shifts in my money story was realizing that financial competence is not about never making a bad decision.
(36:45) It's about being willing to look at the truth without freaking shame, and then deciding what you want to do next. That's what I love about Monarch because it puts your accounts, investments, [music] savings, goals, and spending all in one place so you can actually see the full picture instead of trying [music] to piece together your financial life in your head.
(37:04) And the AI weekly recap can flag things like spending spikes, upcoming expenses, and changes you may have missed. You can even ask the AI assistant questions like, "Can I splurge on this really cute jacket without touching my savings?" Because when you can see what's actually happening with your money, you can make decisions from clarity instead of anxiety.
(37:24) So, write your own money story right now with Monarch. Use code woi at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code woi. [music] >> It made me think of Gisèle Pelicot. Do you know her story? So, Gisèle Pelicot was the French woman. Her husband got arrested because they saw him taking photos under women's skirts.
(37:49) So, the police took his phone. In the phone, they found rape videos and photos of strange men raping his wife, Gisèle Pelicot. She then finds out he's been drugging her for like 9 years. And he was putting up on basically like Craigslist version of like, "Come and have sex with my wife." And it got discovered, and I'm desperately trying to get an interview with her because I just think that [clears throat] that woman's so incredible.
(38:17) But one of the things that came to me is, and I don't know her story, and I it's not this isn't a blame, but like I wonder if that situational awareness where you just especially when it's in your own home, you kind of just get blind to [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And so >> It's a boiling frog. >> Oh, yes. >> It's an escalation of them of an abhorrent bucket of genetic goo as I call them cuz people who do that to other human beings, especially women, they don't rate the the term human.
(38:41) They slowly escalate you to normal see. That's what Rex Heuermann did I think to his wife. You know, you start normalizing someone in your life to abhorrent behavior, so they start dismissing it. It becomes part of the normal and then they start isolating you from people you're interacting with. It's what It's how cults work.
(38:58) >> Yes. >> You know, so it's a very cult-like mentality where they're going to benefit from your loss, control of your information flow, control of who you're seeing, and for their own gain at your expense. Um but that's why we need to pick up on it because this horrendous situations like this. >> Yeah, thank you for that advice.
(39:15) That's why I really want to talk about this sort of thing because this really does become almost like life or death. >> Yes. >> And I'm just going to assume people may hate me, but like I'm going to assume that do women get emotionally hijacked more than men? >> Good question. I don't know the stats, but from you know, objective experience, I would say probably.
(39:37) >> Okay. >> Um and and it's a societal thing. I think it's a cultural thing because the the stressors that are placed on women that aren't placed on men are vastly different. I've had some truly eye-opening experiences of of the kind of stress that are placed on women and how they're targeted both in a true crime area.
(39:59) Matter of fact, vast majority, I don't have the stat in front of me, but a vast majority of sexual assault cases are done against sex workers. And sex workers in this industry are so underreported because they're breaking laws, so they're shamed into doing it. Like in I think the stat was I remember for every one sexual assault or or rape of a woman done that was a sex worker, there's 400 under reported.
(40:23) >> 400? >> That's the one stat I read. This is I can try to remember the case was cuz there was one woman I can't remember the case about 4 years ago where she actually was abducted, chained inside this house, and sexually assaulted and abused and and raped by this um serial rapist. That's what it was.
(40:40) Serial rapist typically have 400 victims. >> Wow. And just making sure I understand, you won't be arrested if you reported rape if you're a sex worker, would you? >> I believe not. I don't know any cop that would. Every state is different than this, and I remember I was working with California Highway Patrol years ago cuz they were trying to get their numbers up on locking away pimps and then the traffickers, right? And in order to do that, cuz here's the greatest challenge, they have to have one of these girls be
(41:09) able to testify against the pimp, against the guy who's trafficking them, which is a huge risk to life for them. And so the fear So how do you inspire someone to get over the fear of being killed for turning on the guy that's actually beating them but actually keeping them alive at the same time cuz they're trauma bonded in here? And I was telling the the California Highway Patrol task force, I said they need to trust you more than they trust him. That takes time.
(41:35) >> This isn't trafficking, but do you know the Gabby Petito case? >> Yes. >> The Gabby Petito, they just did a docu-series on Netflix I just watched, her and her boyfriend um got pulled over, and there's cameras um on the cops what they call the like yeah, there's like body cams, thank you. And so this documentary shows the body cams of them pulling these teenagers over, and apparently she grabbed the wheel and there was this big fight.
(42:01) They put her in the car, and she's hysterical. He's super [ __ ] calm. The body cams have the police officers talking to the guy being like, "Don't worry, dude. We understand." And then they took him to like a motel, protective place because he's the abused one. And then a couple of weeks later, sadly, she ends up completely murdered by him.
(42:23) And so the question with that whole case, and I'm sure I'm missing some details, so apologies if >> No, that's a good synopsis. >> But why did they believe him and trust him over her in those scenarios? Is that biasness? Like is that emotional hijacking? What is that? >> It's all those things right there. So, she's presenting as emotionally hijacked and hysterical, and he's not.
(42:46) Calm, cool, collected, thoughtful. So, they took a snapshot and they fell in love with the narrative they gave themselves right off the bat. They had confirmation bias right from the get-go. I will tell you because like in this case she actually hit him a few times and she was actually raged, you know, cuz she's full of rage because he was he was an animal.
(43:03) But here's what should have happened in any one of the scenarios where where they were together. Because her being the assaulter of him, I mean, think about this. How often have you ever heard where the woman who's actually smaller than the guy is the one doing these In other words, the guy's a victim. >> Yeah. >> Very, very rarely.
(43:26) And so here's what they should have happened. You have a deviation from the norm of what you expected as law enforcement. Here's what I'm hearing right here. I'll tell you what, guys. I'm going to keep you guys separated right now. Now, I'm going to go back. I'm going to now do a deep dive.
(43:40) I'm going to call her parents. I'm going to call his parents. I'm going to start doing a deep dive and get that life arc of behavior. And what would have been uncovered was his issues he had. >> Yeah. >> He had rage issues. He had anger issues. She didn't. >> Yeah, the parents were basically warning her and things like that.
(43:55) So, if you'd made the call to the parents >> 50 seconds in a squad car, or maybe a little bit longer, a couple minutes, and I'm not I'm not blaming the cops on this, although maybe, yeah, I am. >> I mean, I am, yeah. The poor guy died. >> But they they should have done that. You should have done a deeper dive than what's being presented because master manipulators can make you feel like a million bucks in 5 seconds.
(44:15) They put on a great show. Shows fall apart over time. And how do you discover time? Well, you do a little bit of a deeper dive because if someone had such rages, you had such control freak issues that it was going to come out eventually. That's an arc of his life. His In other words, this was not a one-off because the only time you have a one-off is is a psychotic break.
(44:36) You know how rare psychotic breaks are? I mean, we're dealing with a case right now, the the mom in in Boston in Massachusetts, um the Clancy case where her as a mother has been clearly documented. She's labor and delivery nurse, great mom, great wife, great caretaker for the kids. And all of a sudden, after years of all these things, psychotic break kills three kids.
(44:57) That is a psychotic break. When it deviates so far from a norm, from everything that's been done. We have, you know, mis-medications in there, 13 medications. You know, all these things come on the bear to show that we have a such a massive deviation from the norm because we looked at all the way back to for her childhood, all the way now.
(45:12) What kind of human being is she? So, that is what most likely a psychotic break. Again, trial's still out. We'll see. But, now in Gabby Petito's case, no. This is his life arc. There's no psychotic break. This is a broken individual. You know, same thing with Brian Kohberger, the Idaho murders. This is a This is not a break.
(45:31) He's abused women his entire life. Rex Heuermann, abused women his entire life. So, there's an arc that all these people do their entire lives. The greatest thing I think that protects us now as a society and as women, we have the ability to do a lot of research. >> Right. Mhm. Yeah, that's so true. And that story just broke my heart so much, especially when I watched the body cam stuff.
(45:49) >> Did not have to happen. >> Oh, god. And then hearing the way the police officer was like really buddy-buddy with him, it was just so heartbreaking. And there's so many stories out there, Robin, where I've just had either personally or through my community, you know, sharing their stories where there's this moment their partner has been extremely violent.
(46:07) Let's say they called the cops or the neighbor calls the cops. You're very emotional, but the guy's cool, calm, and collected. So, the cops show up, they see that he's super calm, she's frantic, and so they're like, "Sorry, dude. Like, we you know, feel sorry for you." We just keep getting dismissed. So, now let's go to the >> Lindsay Clancy, thank you.
(46:24) >> we were just on about. >> Yeah, thank you. Um there's like controversy around this. If you don't mind helping me understand cuz I think this will help a lot of women watching right now. >> Yeah. So, the Lindsay Clancy case, the one I just referenced, um this is this is what's going on. It's the middle of trial right now.
(46:42) Um mother of three in Massachusetts and a labor and delivery nurse. Um by all accounts, great healthy relationship with her parents who have stood by her side. Her husband, now ex-husband who's now remarried, still standing by her side. And she's journaled about how hard it's been being a mother and but still stuck with it. Amazing, good, hard work and life arc of healthy, strong relationships.
(47:06) And she had been uh diagnosed on previous births with postpartum depression. Postpartum depression is one in 10 women suffer from postpartum depression, which can become suicidal, which can also uh manifest sometimes in thinking of doing harm to children. All these things. The other behavioral tell tempo tell with her was extremely transparent with all her issues she's going on with.
(47:28) She's telling her health care providers. And so, she's not arguing against killing her three kids by strangulation and then attempted suicide. She slashed her neck, slashed her wrist, and then jumped out of the window of their house. >> I didn't know that. >> She paralyzed herself from the waist down.
(47:43) She's paralyzed for the rest of her life. She claims full accountability for killing her three kids. Um what they're wishing for in in the trial is to be placed in mental health psychiatric in prison for the rest of her life. And the prosecution's trying to put her in general population the rest of her life. Either way, not trying to get out of jail, took full accountability because she was broken.
(48:04) No one was really talking to each other is what the defense is claiming. 13 medications, actually they just had the toxicology report come back. All those medications were in her system as well. Her journals come back. The prosecution's claiming that she was tired of being a mother, that she was overwhelmed with being a mother, she just wanted to stop being a mother and end it all.
(48:24) So, here's where behaviors comes in. Here's how I assess these things. When I first see the case, the first thing I do as a behaviorist in any situation is like, all right, let me look at her life and her relationships, immediate family. Solid. Husband standing by her side. And watching his testimony, he knew the ins and outs of her medications, the schedule she's on, all these things.
(48:43) So, he had depth of field on what she's going through. And even though they're divorced now, still standing by her side. He lost his three kids, too. So, you start seeing that. I see the parents. The parents are paying for um um Kevin Redington's her attorney. 75-year-old, amazing, amazing defense attorney.
(49:01) They are going bankrupt and broke paying for her defense. Standing by her side, was there to help take care of her kids. Her circle of friends standing by her, standing by her. Prosecution, no one standing by them. Claiming that these things. Here's the other thing as a behaviorist you look at. They claim that she wanted to get out of these things cuz she gave up on life, she gave up on her kids, she hated being a mother.
(49:19) Nowhere in her journals or in her life has anyone ever said Lindsay Clancy ever gave up on anything in the past. So, in other words, she went from never give up to a hard work to give up today? When you have a spike like that, psychotic event. One in a thousand is psychotic event for a postpartum psychotic event, and also she's suffering from bipolar.
(49:39) It's that rare, that unusual. There's only like one or two cases that actually can claim not guilty by reason of insanity. And so, what we look at behaviorally is, what's the life arc of behavior, and where's the deviation? There was no deviation. It's so controversial because you have the science side on the medications, on the postpartum psychosis, and then you have the side is doesn't matter she made a choice to kill her kids.
(50:02) And so, that's why it's so controversial. Is that did she intend to do it and pre-plan it, which prosecution is claiming to get out of life as a mother or as defense claiming a psychotic break because of mismanagement of her health care? >> Wow. Thank you for breaking that down and exactly how you looked at it. That was fascinating. >> Here's one more thing I'd like that I'm I'm sorry because I was >> please.
(50:23) >> So, I'm going to do a little non-verbal as too. If you watch the testimony in the in the courtroom, there's another thing to compare and contrast when you're looking at human behavior. Kouri Richins, you know, the important mother that killed her husband and wrote a children's book. You watch her in the courtroom, she's performative.
(50:39) She'll have tears and then she'll look around, who's looking at me? Oh, oh, oh, looking around, who's looking at me? She's doing it for performance. Alex Murdaugh, the Murdaugh case in South Carolina. Performative tears, blubbering, then looking around. Then you also have the case of Donald Adelson, the one that was a murder for hire of her ex-son-in-law.
(50:55) She hired a hit man and she's actually serving life in jail. And so, you see and she's 75 years old. She performs in the courtroom and then looks around, who's looking at her? So, you have performative and then you have real. Real is looking at Lindsay Clancy in the courtroom. Pre-planned would be performative to try to get out of something.
(51:14) In the courtroom, she's completely collapsed onto herself. When they start going through some of the evidence and the testimonies, you see her completely collapsed in her wheelchair, shaking and bawling, never performative, never looking around, completely collapsed as a human being. With the most telling thing to me is um her defense attorney is holding her hand.
(51:39) >> Oh, wow. You don't get to see that often. >> No. Treating her like a daughter. >> Mhm. >> In that courtroom. Relationships, relationships, relationships. Now, can we find out more things along the way that they'll go through the trial that would shift, you know, my thoughts and opinions? Sure. But as of right now, everything I'm seeing is congruent with psychotic break.
(51:59) >> Wow. I'm so in two minds because it's like I think obviously murder is never okay and especially with children. >> Right. 100%. 100%. >> They just can't defend themselves. That is utterly horrendous. But then also the other side to me is when a woman's really freaking struggling to that extreme where you're desperately trying to just feel good about yourself and you can't find a way out.
(52:21) That [ __ ] is serious as well. >> This is a case about mental health for women. And that's what this is about. Getting women the help they need from the clinicians that they're they're put their trust in openly and honestly. Not She didn't hide anything. And they mismanaged it and she wound up killing her kids. >> Oh my god, my heart breaks.
(52:37) Oh, my heart breaks. Okay. Um in that case, it is just so hard. So, thank you for sharing it. I'm now thinking about the woman that ends up being sadly the one that ends up being murdered by the husband. >> Yes. >> You don't think about it. Maybe he yells sometimes, but then he freaking flips a switch. Um I know you said that sometimes a psychotic break actually happens like it can happen for weeks and months.
(53:09) So, are there things that we can even look out for to know if our partner is going in that direction? >> I can't think of any. But here's the good news. I haven't covered a case yet where there's been a psychotic break of a man doing that to his wife. It is a It is a build that all the warning signs are there.
(53:27) So, I don't know the exact stat on that. I just know in the last four or five years I've been doing a lot of commentary on it. Um I haven't had a case where there's a psychotic break. For example, um Nick Reiner. >> Who's Nick Reiner? >> Nick Reiner, uh Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner's uh son. Right out here. >> Uh-huh. >> So, here's a great example.
(53:44) >> don't know the story, so >> All right, so Rob Reiner, um, the the um >> When Harry Met Sally. >> Yes, and the the the great the great Hollywood director, a great great human being, um, very very altruistic, a lot of generosity in his life. Him and his wife, um, had kids. Their son, Nick, has had problems his entire life.
(54:09) Life arc of drug addiction, I think it was six rehabs he went through that his parents paid for, lots of counseling, lots of everything. And Nick his entire life saw himself as a victim, lots of addiction problems, tons of unhealthy relationships, uh, went to, um, Conan O'Brien's Christmas party, and, uh, just really weird behavior, very offensive, very off-putting, and he goes home that night, has a rage moment, kills both his parents, slashes their necks.
(54:35) Um, there's an individual that had a life arc of this coming. All the signs were there. And because of kindness, because of no loving critics or or or being able to really see the forest through the trees that your son had the potential to do violence against you, even though he's shown violence in the past, you discarded it.
(54:58) You discounted it, and they wound up dead for it. And he still sees himself as the victim. >> Oh, he does. >> That is not a psychotic break. On the flip side, you have Clancy, who sought sought help, transparent about help. I'll do what you tell me to do, and then has a psychotic break. No arc of her life ever doing violence or anything against anyone.
(55:19) Nothing but good healthy human being, good healthy relationship, good mother. So, that's the difference. >> That makes a lot of sense. But, when you're looking at, let's say, the arc and seeing how, like, their past and if there's any, uh, common threads, what about the people that have the best masks? So, you get the doctors and the psychologists.
(55:35) These are now people who are potentially nefarious and dangerous, and they're using their position and their title to somewhat mask their true I'm going to say bad intentions. I know you don't see anything anything is good or bad. >> that I'm with you on that one. Those are bad intentions. >> Yeah, okay. So, how do you then even look at their art that can potentially signal to me that they are this person, they just aren't showing it like Rob Reiner's son? >> It's It's It's tough but doable.
(56:02) Um you know, the first thing I look at is I look at reviews online. >> Oh. >> There's wobbles. >> Really? But you look on my channel, you get from one comment that's like, "I love this. This is the best episode ever." And then you get the next comment that's like, "This is the worst. I hate this person." >> you take those comments and then you compare them to other people in their field.
(56:21) >> Oh. >> So, now we have a we have a comparison to see a blip from that or is is Lisa a blip from this or they part of the norm or is it a deviation? So, that's just one data point and then when you see those blips, just look at those reviews because there is always leakage. You just have to find where they're having their leakage.
(56:39) Professionally, you're right, it's much it's much easier for them to hide these things but all these things give me data points. And if I got data points of someone healthy potential red flags, a little bit of smoke, and I have other choices, why not go to the other choice first, right? Instead of doubling down and well, maybe it's just okay, maybe it's just a bad day.
(57:00) Um but the first I'm looking at is the people in their lives. Good example that is Lori Daybell Vallow. This is the the cult mom that killed her two kids uh a couple years ago because she claimed they're possessed by evil demons and that she was freeing them from this earth and these evil demons that they had. The Clancy case where everyone's standing on her side >> Mhm.
(57:17) >> because of the human being she was on that case with Lori Daybell Vallow, no one did. Everyone said she's a nutcase. Everyone said she's a horrible she was. And so, all the data points are always there. You You have to look because no one can hide everything from everyone all the time.
(57:36) There's always going to be at least a gap of time. The Rex Heuermann case, the Gilgo Beach murder guy we talked about. He hid in gaps of time where he sent his family away on vacation. What Elsa should have done, the ex-wife and the daughter, what specifically were you doing during this time? How did you fill your time? There's a gap of time in there in behavior that's a little off-putting.
(58:00) Not necessarily you're saying he's a serial killer, but what's that all about? >> That's so true. I'd love to interview the BTK's wife because there was a documentary done by the >> His daughter's done a lot of work. Yeah, she's she's great. She's done a lot. She's done a lot. >> Well, then the question I have with that whole case of BTK, bind, torture, kill, um he was discovered like what was it? 20, 30 years later? Like after he'd done it because his daughter got a DNA test and they matched things.
(58:24) Um she says that he had the bowling bag by the door. And he would get angry. He's like, "You never touch this bag." And so everyone just knew, "You don't touch dad's bowling bag." He never bowled. >> Right. >> So, my question is, are they asking the questions or is it dad's got temper? So, you just don't ask dad questions.
(58:44) >> Right. Yes, both. They use fear. Fear is the motivator for don't do behavior and then they normalize that so it's just part of the normal noise in the background. >> Cuz thinking about this one that you were saying when she's on vacation, maybe she didn't even ask him what we doing while we were away. >> He set the baseline of what the expectation was.
(59:01) You don't ask about that. You also don't go in his room downstairs. >> All right. >> He had a secret room. That that bedroom of his, that was his kill zone. Uh you don't go in the bedroom. Uh that's my room. Don't go near it. And so >> one. >> And when you have a daughter, cuz his daughter um Victoria grew up in that house, it's just the way things are.
(59:15) >> Yes. >> And so you get you get all these abhorrent behaviors normalized over time so they don't stand out as wobbles to them. On the outside looking in, major wobbles. >> Not that it's the same at all, but I remember growing up I'm Greek Orthodox and I remember asking my grandmother um something about God.
(59:30) Like, "Why do you think God exists?" Sacrilege. She lost her [ __ ] Like, this little old Greek woman was like, "God exists, and that's it. You never ask." From that day on, I never bloody asked. Because you get told when you're young enough, and you get almost shamed for asking. So, um I know it's a bit deviation, but it's somewhat the same thing from that girl, right? Like, you're told you never go in that room.
(59:54) You may be asked one question once. Your dad smacks at you, you never ask again. >> Do not be a critical thinker around non-critical thinkers, because they will come at you. >> Oh, that's a good note. >> Um so, another great author I love, Noah Harari. Um >> Oh, yes. >> Yeah, Sapiens, Homo Deus, and Nexus. Um Nexus is talks about the age of communication with human beings.
(1:00:11) And he did a great piece in their book about how we communicate as a species, and the most healthy of us actually have what I call self-correcting mindsets, where we learn, and we explore, and we get better. Um non-self-correcting are the non-critical thinkers who say, "It's this way. This is the doctrine, never change it, and this is the way it is done." This is the scientific method.
(1:00:29) And also, part of it is the Socratic method of asking questions. You know, a lot of times people aren't doing it. So, actually, you know the only place the Socratic method is actually taught for asking questions is law school. >> Oh. >> In other words, curiosity is not taught. >> Huh. Uh-huh. You're told in school.
(1:00:44) You're not >> Yes. It's beaten out So, we're born, another great book on Cracking the Curiosity Code, on Diane Hamilton. She um talks about curiosity, and we're born with it. It's it's a survival mechanism as a species have curiosity, because that's how we learn. It's why we don't have speech when we're born, cuz we don't have a frame of reference.
(1:01:01) We become curious about things, we point to things, our parents tell us what it's called, and so we now absorb. And so, that's how our curiosity is fueled. It's good until about the age of six or seven, when we start annoying the living hell out of our parents, and they tell us, "Shut up. Shut up.
(1:01:12) Shut up. You ask too many questions." So, it gets suppressed. And And so, it's suppressed at school, too, because we're being told what to do. We're told to do these things. This is the right way and a wrong way. We're being judged on what to do and what's right or wrong. So, that way of questioning being curious, which is really the fundamental thing that keeps us safe cuz really we're genetically coded to be curious for our safety, security, prosperity, and our survival.
(1:01:40) Yet, it's beaten out of us and and any institution, cult, political I don't care what it is. Anyone that tells you to stop asking questions is one to be fearful of. >> The worst thing can do as a behaviorist or as a human being is to fall in love with the outcome that you want. >> Oh, yes. >> And that's what we do and this is what we do with our women in our relationships is that you fall in love with the idea of what you want and you think you can make it happen and you're going to ignore everything else.
(1:02:08) >> Yeah. I love the idea of asking questions and you actually I've teased the audience enough about the antidote for the emotional hijacking. So, the antidote is you say you have to ask yourself three questions. What did I observe? What did I infer? And what is their point of view? So, if you do those three questions, is it that you're able to see things without the biasness that you come to the table with? >> Yeah, that's the point of all this is is those three things help us be present without that agenda. What did I observe?
(1:02:38) In other words, what did I see without trying to see? Based on that, what did I infer? In other words, do I still have some leakage coming in there of what I thought I saw? >> Oh, yes. >> Instead of what I did see. And then, the last one. >> Yes. Um I'd actually like to move on to I have a stat.
(1:02:56) The National Domestic Violence Hotline estimates it takes an average of seven attempts to leave. Um talk to me about paralysis analysis. Maybe I'm making it up. Is that potentially why sometimes we don't want to see red flags because then we have to act on it, but then we get paralyzed to act on it? >> So, there's a couple different things going on there.
(1:03:13) Seven attempts before we actually leave because I I believe most of that is trauma bonding going on there. They know your triggers that get that dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins flowing in your brain. And as soon as you walk away and you don't have it coming from anywhere else cuz you're now you're on your own for the first time, you're scared. Fear is the motivator.
(1:03:31) There's no way to take care of yourself because you didn't have a healthy family structure, not by your choice because they isolated you from everyone. You get sucked back in. There's no other way. And that's why it's so hard to take seven times to do it. And during those seven times, they're trying to establish escape routes.
(1:03:46) So, always maintain healthy relationships outside the one you have because you need loving critics in life. And what was the second part? >> And then it was like the paralysis analysis. >> Yeah, so what happens then too is we never think we have enough data in or enough information in to make the good healthy choice.
(1:04:02) And so we think I just need a little bit more. I need a little bit more time. Let me just try this. Let me try this. Let me do this. Let's see what the result is of this. No, a red flag, red flag, red flag. And if you got three to four red flags, and you think you need to see five or six before you walk out the door, you're probably wrong.
(1:04:18) You know, I always relate human beings and our behavior like the Titanic. You know, a big ship, slow to move. You know, so here's the Titanic. And here's you as a human being. You're going down. And all of a sudden you see this big big fricking iceberg in front of you. You see it, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I got to avoid the iceberg.
(1:04:38) Hard over." Little teeny rudder. That's us. Lean little teeny rudder is our awareness of I got to change course. You're still going to hit the damn iceberg, though. Cuz human beings change very, very slowly. So here's you thinking, "I can change this person." If they're aware enough, they might be. But that behavior is not going to go from zero to 100.
(1:04:57) James Clear, Atomic Habits. It's about zero to one or two miles an hour at best. Repeat it over time. That's the same thing for us. Be present. See the world free of an agenda. Question and be curious about things that look different. Do a little bit more inquiry. Seek transparency where you're a little fearful, where you feel a little insecure.
(1:05:14) >> I love that. That's so clear. So, in your career, oh my god, you must have had a lot of hard conversations. Someone may try to dominate the conversation, put you down, insult you. How would you handle those types of conversations? >> Now, I'm going to go back to the whole arch of how we have a conversation, and you said hard conversation. I I love redefining words.
(1:05:37) I don't see conversations as hard or challenging conversations. >> Oh. >> What makes a conversation in someone's mind hard or challenging is if you're going to use your subjective opinion of what it is they are and who they are. So, that's an opinion. I don't have conversations about opinion.
(1:05:54) I have a conversations about actions and and deeds. And so, you make it about behavior. You know, it's funny, I didn't even learn this in the FBI, I learned this in the Marine Corps. So, way back when before I got in the FBI as a Marine Corps officer and as a Parris Island, South Carolina, and I was in charge of boot camp, but I had 16 drill instructors, 16 of the world's most impressive human beings forging young boys into men in the Marine Corps.
(1:06:16) And you can imagine, these are pretty intense individuals and human beings. My job, I was mid-20s and these guys are in their 30s and sometimes 40s, four times as much experience, twice as old as me, and I was in charge of them. And my job is to keep them from doing stupid [ __ ] to recruits that is going to end their career and hurt someone, right? >> Okay.
(1:06:33) >> So, how do you counsel someone and have a challenging conversation with a Marine Corps drill instructor? >> That's a good question. I have no idea. >> You make it about their behavior. I don't say, "Listen, I think I think what you did was wrong. I felt this was not appropriate. I felt like you you you didn't treat me with respect.
(1:06:52) " These are typical words we use that are challenging conversations. They'll they'll go nowhere cuz now you're arguing context, and you can never argue context with a human being. That's not what I think. Here's what I think. And we get a battle of context. >> Oh, yeah. >> Instead of say, "Listen, Staff Sergeant, here's exactly what I saw you do.
(1:07:08) Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Tell me, is that congruent or incongruent with the condition of your employment? Here's the standard. >> That's so good. Uh-huh. >> Here's how you broke standard. What are you going to do about it from now? >> Mhm. >> And so, in a relationship, say, "Listen, my my wife and I said this we've been married we'll be 34 years next year.
(1:07:28) " >> Wow, dude, that's amazing. Congratulations. >> And she she gives me credit for one thing, only one. When we got married, I said, "Never go to bed angry. We have a discussion dialogue." Although, I've heard some people say, "We go to bed angry all the time." Because something to talk about.
(1:07:41) Right, gives us something to talk about in the morning. >> Mostly, I can just sleep and not be as annoyed. >> I I literally saw you say that, that's why I brought it up. I was watching one of your podcasts. And so, but that was our condition. And so, that's condition of our relationship. We make it about observed behavior. Here's exactly what you said.
(1:07:59) You know, let's talk about what was said, not what I feel about it or anything like that. Let's talk about the words, actions, and deeds. Is that congruent with a healthy relationship or unhealthy relationship? And so, I just talk about words, actions, and deeds. Is this what a healthy relationship does and how they communicate or not? So, now if something deviates, cuz again, in relationships, you can never anticipate all the stupid things people say and do cuz you have such close exposure over periods of time and everything. But as
(1:08:25) something approaches and something comes up, you go back to, "Hey, is this a new condition we need to put in the relationship of of how we talk and treat each other in public? Because here's the word you said. Here's the reaction I had to those words. It did not make me feel whole. It did not make me feel seen.
(1:08:42) It made me feel little in front of your friends. It made me feel worse than than such and such. Is that the way you intended me to feel? And you just have a conversation about behaviors. Not about what your interpretation of those behaviors are. >> That sounds so amazing, but what if the other person doesn't abide by the same rules? So, they're just obnoxious.
(1:09:01) They're rude. They're demeaning to you. >> Well then we have an unhealthy relationship, don't we? And why you in it? >> So then what would you do? Just get up and walk away? >> We have a conversation about an exit strategy. So listen, I I romanticized this. I thought this relationship was more than it was. I thought the way you felt about me was different than it actually is as demonstrated by this.
(1:09:21) I'm not faulting you for it, that's on me. Um we need to move on. You're not going to change another human being. It ain't going to happen. It's a lie we tell ourselves cuz we we have this beautiful word called hope. Hope destroys relationships a lot of times cuz I hope they'll get better. Why would they? Remember, past is prologue.
(1:09:40) If they don't have a critical life crisis that happens to them to change behaviors, how do alcoholics change behavior? Rock bottom. Something tragic that happens in their life that they say they need to make a choice to make a a difference in their lives and then the rudder shifts and now it's a slow crawl back out.
(1:10:00) But it's only the choice that they can make. If they did it once, twice, or three times, likelihood of continuing without a major life crisis changing that that trajectory of that big Titanic, slim to none. So then ask yourself, what's making you stay? What do you fear by leaving? >> I love that. That was so good.
(1:10:21) Um I'd love to go over your code of trust. So going almost back to elicitation, so you talk about the code of trust and you talk about a story where there was a guy called Steve and you're sitting at a restaurant. >> Right. So this was probably my my first true recruit, not recruit, my first true confidential human source meeting.
(1:10:41) So my Jedi master, we'll call him Jesse, he said, "All right Robin, I got a potential confidential human source coming in. Hey new guy, want to come along with me." And so Jesse asked me to go out with the new potential source meeting. We got this beautiful nice steakhouse on the Upper West Side um right across the Intrepid Air and Space Museum. And nice back corner booth.
(1:11:00) And I said, all right, so what's going on? We're going to do spy stuff. I'm going to ask him a lot of questions. He goes, here's what I want you to do, Robin. Shut up and sit down and don't say anything. It's like, okay, I'll do the best I can. So anyway, um Sky Steve walks in and all I knew about Steve was that he had some information about having some access to one of our intelligence officers in the city.
(1:11:20) And that's all I knew. And I figured we're going to have a quick meeting, going to talk about spy stuff, see what he knew about the intelligence officer, and maybe drop some names of who he can put us in contact with and that kind of stuff. I thought it was going to be just the facts, man, just like you see on TV and kind of go down a list of questions.
(1:11:35) Anyway, the guy Steve walks in, Jesse stands up, shakes his hand, says, hey, um so sorry it took so long to get here. I knew you had some traffic. What was that drive in like for you? And so Steve's now talking about coming through the Holland Tunnel instead of the Lincoln Tunnel because of the traffic.
(1:11:50) And he's talking about all these things. And then then without even batting an eyelash, Jesse then says, hey, so, you know, any more challenges this week? What's going on? And so then Steve starts talking about the divorce he's going through, child custody issues he's going through, they've got a home inspector coming in, going to put the house up for mortgage, and they've got to split the proceeds.
(1:12:07) And I'm sitting here listening. This has been going on for like an hour, hour and a half. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering when we're going to get to you know, the real stuff. And before we even started, the next thing that really threw me is as he sat down, you know, Jesse then looks at us, hey, so sorry again for the hard time getting here.
(1:12:27) This won't take too long cuz Robin's got to go meet his daughter, he's got to pick her up at a at a recital somewhere. And so that's what brought up the topic of the kids. He's talking about his kids and the child custody. And I'm like, this is going This is like talking to some like one of your neighbors. And I I was like, and also, I wasn't allowed to talk. So I'm not saying anything.
(1:12:44) Jesse was saying like a word here. He's like, tell me more about this. What was next? And then I'm seeing Steve unload, unload, unload. And literally, we had like three, five questions maybe to ask. This we're there for a couple hours. The waiters are like looking at their watches wondering to shovel us out.
(1:13:00) And before it came to the very end, again, no questions asked, Steve leans across and looks at Jesse and goes, "Hey, by the way, what can I do for you guys? You've been so kind. You know, I I really appreciate you allowing me to unload with what's going on in my life. I tell you, I feel a lot better.
(1:13:16) So, what can I help you with?" And Jesse says, "Well, you know, we're curious about maybe something having to do with these intelligence officers." And then Steve then volunteers, "Well, yeah, you know what? I'm in touch with this guy, this guy, and this guy. If you're interested, I can make an introduction for you or anything you want." And I'm sitting here saying to myself, "Wow, we just recruited this guy without even asking him a question.
(1:13:32) He recruited himself." >> Wow. >> Why? Because he made it all about him. >> Mhm. That's so good. I love that story so much. I really do. I wrote like a bit of a list of like a couple of things that you guys did for anyone. And it's kind of like this list always goes two ways. It's when you really want to be genuine, you want someone to trust you because you really want to bond with them. This is great.
(1:13:53) But also, I always think of it from the other side, like the dark side, like these are the tactics that someone may use on you to try and get you to trust them. So, um I believe you guys established a time constraint. >> Yes. >> Um and then be generous with attention, patience, benefit of the doubt, things like that. Validate before you inquire.
(1:14:09) Um and what is specifically are you validating? Them as a person? Their beliefs? What is that? >> Thoughts, opinions, ideas. In other words, validation is not saying I agree with you, it's being curious about what it is you're saying. So, all those things you just mentioned. So, here's where they are. That's the story.
(1:14:24) Here's what was going on. John established a time constraint when he said, "Robin's got to go pick up his daughter in a couple hours." So, we had some some commonality with with kids and time constraint. You you you have situation awareness, so you feel in control, you feel safe. The validation came from he's validating and saw his opinions, ideas.
(1:14:40) He wasn't saying, "Dude, you're getting divorced. What are you, nuts?" I mean, it wasn't it wasn't sitting in judgment of anything he was saying, either verbally or nonverbally, being generous with time, actions, and resources in terms of his challenges, priorities, and pain points in life.
(1:14:55) Matter of fact, the thing I I often get asked, I think we all get asked as we get older, is, "What could you tell your 20-year-old self that you know now that you didn't know then?" My 20-year-old self, if I could said, "Robin, stop paying attention to solving your own problems, to those great relationships you have.
(1:15:09) Take those great relationships and learn to be a problem solver for them." >> That's amazing. There's always a flip side though that it's going to be hard to swallow, but let me just give it a chance. A lot of us women are so outside focus. We're trying to help the other person, and we're never inside ourselves. We're never trying to if we're about us, yeah.
(1:15:32) >> So, it's never a a one or the other. >> Oh, I get it. >> Dichotomy and balance. Jocko Willink, left balance, extreme ownership, dichotomy of leadership. Everything in life is a dichotomy. We can't experience the great things in life unless we haven't experienced the really horrendous, cuz then it's all just vanilla. Same thing.
(1:15:48) So, for me, my balance was me, me, me, my problems, didn't understand you had problems. I had to bring it into balance. If you are an individual that has spent so much time out of balance because you're a giver, giver, giver, you're a problem solver for others that you've neglected your own, bring it back into balance. When the well is empty, there's nothing you can take from.
(1:16:08) My well was empty because I didn't build it up with being a resource for others. Now, on the flip side, if you're the type of person that has a full well, >> you need to take. >> It's okay to take from the well. You sensitize the world towards your challenges, priorities, and pain points. If you have a healthy, strong relationship and a full well, >> Mhm.
(1:16:25) >> you can have a plethora of people coming in willing to be a resource and help you. And here's the key to to judge it as a healthy relationship or not. They'll do so without an ask. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Cuz if someone comes in to be a resource for you, but there's an agenda of an ask, well, then it's coming with a condition.
(1:16:42) >> Yes. >> Yeah. That's so true. Um Okay, so you said validate before you inquire. This is all the things that you did with Steve that we can either possibly get manipulated by um use sympathy or assistance. The power of the word if. >> Yeah, in this case we gave Steve sympathy assistance by the gift of an ear.
(1:17:02) You know, it's a beautiful thing to do. Um and then what was the last one again? >> Um Oh, so it was basically the power of the word if. >> If. Oh, I love the word if. So, empower people with a choice. The word if gives people that choice. So, say Steve then offer himself as a resource for us with a name.
(1:17:18) Say, Steve I've had a great conversation with you. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it took a time away from what you're doing with with your family and all the challenges you're dealing with life. If you're comfortable with it, I'd really appreciate if you'd be able to do this, this, this because here's the result we could do in in the world of national security if that's something you're comfortable with.
(1:17:34) If you're not comfortable with it, please let me know if there's something I could do to mitigate that comfort for you so we can move forward. And also, if you prefer not to have contact with me, again, I'll completely leave you alone. That entire conversation dialogue made an ask, but the ask was completely about you.
(1:17:50) I offered someone an opportunity to do something patriotic if that's a priority of theirs. I validated that they're dealing with a lot of challenges in life. I validated the fact that this might make them feel uncomfortable and if it does, let me know. And I offered them path forward either to help or not help and completely fine with our relationship either way.
(1:18:05) >> That was so good. It was so good. So, the power of if. >> If. >> I love it. Um and then lastly Well, you say don't really say why, but there's there there are conditions. Yeah, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, talk to me about that and what that does to us. >> Yeah, um and I don't just discard why all the time cuz Simon Sinek wrote a great book, Start With Why.
(1:18:23) >> Yeah. >> And why is the overarching a mission statement as I call it. You know, if you understand your why in life, that's a great thing that you know, as as a great entrepreneur like you and your husband, you have to understand that why of the destination you're going to. >> 1,000%. >> But after that one why, it's fueled by the what's.
(1:18:40) What specific actions can I take to get us to that point? >> Mhm. >> And also, the why underneath can be very judgy. >> Mhm. >> It can actually set people's insecurities off off flare in a foot because if you say, "So, why did you do it that way?" >> Yeah. >> We could get very defensive and now we get subjective context going and we start arguing why.
(1:18:59) >> I actually have a study here. A landmark study by forensic psychologist analyzed over 800 real interrogation recordings of terrorism suspects. And what it found is that the tough aggressive interrogation made suspects clam up. The interrogators who built rapport, warmth, respect, no judgement got far more real intelligence on terrorists who are literally trained to say nothing.
(1:19:23) >> Yeah. George Piro is the FBI agent that interviewed Saddam Hussein. >> Oh. >> He was the only individual had access to Saddam Hussein and that's exactly the attack angle that George Piro took. >> Oh, really? >> They formed a relationship and and they formed a friendship and that's how it worked. >> Oh, [ __ ] I didn't know that.
(1:19:38) >> Yeah. And you know, going back to the first person who's documented to have done this, Hanns Scharff, the interrogator, World War German interrogator. He elicited information from all the downed Allied pilots by creating a relationship. >> Oh, wow. >> And that's the guy that we'd think is a German interrogator during World War he's going to rip your fingernails out and this guy was completely opposite.
(1:19:59) >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, think about this. So, use the terrorism scenario right there. So, say I'm an interrogator and say you're a terrorist. If I come into a room, we don't have a relationship, we don't have rapport, we don't have time and I say, "Why did you do that?" >> [laughter] >> I'm not saying a word. >> As opposed to I mean, just think about the impact of saying, "Why did you do that?" in a very especially if it's incongruent with the art it's very judgy as opposed to >> judged.
(1:20:21) >> "What was the outcome you were seeking?" You keep it to the what cuz why engages the emotional brain? What engages the pragmatic problem-solving brain? So, I like to and so if I want to bring someone back also from the emotional hijacking and uh and the confirmation bias, I ask very specific questions, not subjective questions.
(1:20:42) It's like, you know, what was the outcome you're seeking? What behavior is supporting it? Is this the behaviors we need for healthy relationships? Same thing in every situation. I always go to what questions. >> Yes. I don't have an actual accurate study, but I'm going to guess 99% of us in relationships just go up to partners and why would you do that? >> Right. So, take a second.
(1:20:58) So, anytime you get emotionally hijacked, it's an opportunity to do what I call a science experiment. Because you know what the result will be if you do it that way cuz you've done it that way a million times. You know an argument's ensuing. That's why we That's why we consider it a challenging or tough conversation. >> Mhm.
(1:21:11) >> It's cuz you are anticipating a fight. >> Oh, yes. >> Here's how you don't make it a fight. Don't make it a fight. Ask a what question. >> Mhm. >> And here's the important thing. Instead of saying, "What were you thinking?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah. They'll say, "Well, you told me to say a what?" >> You need congruence.
(1:21:28) Congruence is So, here's me judging. >> Oh. >> Here's me curious. >> Oh. >> What was the outcome you're seeking? >> Oh. >> So, when you can have excitement to learn by being curious and asking a what question, that congruency, that's what disarms of people cuz people always have a reason why they do what they do. >> Oh, yes. >> And they want to rationalize it.
(1:21:46) They want to feel good about their actions. They want you to feel good about their actions. And so, when you give them permission to not be defensive, it's amazing what starts flowing from there. >> See, that was so good. Robin Dreke, dude, this has been so amazing. Where can people go and find you? You've just released the master class.
(1:22:08) So, we're going to put all the like the links and stuff in there, but if people want to go deeper into your world, where can they go? >> Very easy. robindreke.com, r o b i n d r e e k e dot com and all things me, as I call death by Robin. Lots of words there about [laughter] me. >> [gasps] >> Guys, guys, I had so much fun today going into this guy's world was just freaking awesome.
(1:22:27) The things that he's done, the way he understands human behavior, is just next level. And let's face it, if we actually understood that and we practice and just get better at understanding and not allowing people to emotionally hijack us, can you imagine just how much confidence we can build? So, guys, go and check him out.
(1:22:42) Massive shout out and thank you to Masterclass. They gave me exclusive access to watch it before this interview so we could talk about it. But, guys, it is now out, so you got to go check out his Masterclass there. Freaking great, dude. Congratulations on that. That's so amazing. Guys, thank you so much for joining.
(1:22:57) If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life. Peace. >> [gasps] >> If you want to train with other top experts in the world on interrogation, lie detection, and building rapport, then you definitely don't want to miss this interview right here with the insanely amazing Greg Hartley.
(1:23:16) 63%. That's nearly two out of three murdered women are killed by a
No comments:
Post a Comment