Heaven is Here and Now | Dharma, Karma & Moksha | Vanamali Mataji x Rodrigo Canelas
Author Name:Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@somethingbigger
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZaF2xRJK0
Title: Heaven is Here and Now | Dharma, Karma & Moksha | Vanamali Mataji x Rodrigo Canelas
Author Name: Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Description: ➡️Law of Karma Explained: why God doesn't punish you, your karma does | Vanamali Mataji
➡️Why bad things happen to good people, and how dharma, karma & moksha really work | Rodrigo Canelas
➡️Hindu Mystic Explains Dharma, Karma & Moksha | Vanamali Mataji x Rodrigo Canelas
Guest suggestions: https://forms.gle/uyAb1ZsKZZ1eSCFF6
Join the team: hello@somethingbigger.com
Partnerships & sponsorships: partnerships@somethingbigger.com
In Today's Episode :
In this conversation, Rodrigo Canelas sits down with Vanamali Mataji, spiritual teacher and author of books on Krishna, Rama, Shiva and the Bhagavad Gita, to understand the basics of Hinduism that even many Hindus have forgotten. Mataji explains why Hinduism does not promise a heaven after death, how the cosmic law of dharma keeps the entire universe running like clockwork, and why every creature, from an ant to an elephant, has the same right to live. She breaks down the law of karma through a powerful example: a thief and a surgeon can perform the same action, yet karma judges them completely differently, because it is the intention that counts.
The conversation goes deep into the four goals of life (dharma, artha, kama and moksha), the four aspects of the mind, the ego, the fear of death, and how we can decondition ourselves to live with love instead of fear. Mataji also shares how to see the divine in every person, how to love without expectation, and why acceptance is the key to a peaceful life.
What You Will Discover :-
💠Why Hinduism says heaven is here and now
💠What dharma really means: the one cosmic law
💠Why only human beings can sin
💠The law of karma: why intention matters more than action
💠The four goals of life: dharma, artha, kama and moksha
💠How karma and reincarnation work together
💠What moksha means for a normal life with work, family and bills
💠Why the universe provides for your need, not your greed
💠The four parts of the mind: manas, buddhi, ahamkara and chitta
💠 How to overcome the fear of death
💠Why we should live by love, not by the fear of God
💠How to see the divine in everyone
💠How to set life goals that are aligned with dharma
Timestamps :🎙️
00:00 Introduction
01:01 Surrender, Control & Free Will
03:24 Aim of Life: Heaven Is Here
04:24 What Is Dharma?
07:36 Law of Karma & Intention
09:31 Four Goals of Life
15:59 Karma, Rebirth & Moksha
18:38 Need, Not Greed
22:01 Ego & the Four Parts of Mind
27:01 Freedom & the Atman
28:58 Fear of Death
30:45 Breaking Conditioning: Fear vs Love
34:39 Karma Punishes, Not God
39:43 Dharma in Daily Life
44:04 Seeing the Divine in Others
49:28 Rishis & Quantum Physics
51:34 What Is Real Education?
55:29 Self-Love & Dharmic Goals
58:55 Closing Thoughts
Today's Episode Highlights :
"If there is a heaven, it has to be here and now."
"Enjoy this life, but not at the cost of another person's disappointment."
"In the eyes of the Supreme, there is no difference between an ant and an elephant."
"The universe will provide for your need, but not for your greed."
"Keep a person on the right track through love, not fear."
About Our Guest :
Vanamali Mataji is a spiritual teacher and author of books on Hindu scripture, including The Complete Life of Krishna, The Complete Life of Rama, Shiva and Nitya Yoga: Essays on the Bhagavad Gita. A devotee of Krishna, she is associated with Vanamali Gita Yogashram on the banks of the Ganga in Rishikesh. Through the ashram, she supports widows with rations and helps run a village school in the Himalayas and a tribal school in Kerala.
Guest Social Links :
Website : https://www.vanamaliashram.org
YouTube : / @vanamalimataji7682
Follow Rodrigo on Social Media:
Spotify:🎧 https://open.spotify.com/show/5jpwQGF...
Something Bigger Show Clips: / @somethingbiggerclips
Instagram: / rodrigocanelas
Instagram (Show): / somethingbiggershow
X (Twitter): https://x.com/rodrigo_canelas
LinkedIn: / rodrigocanelas
#krishna #conciousliving #lifegoals
Transcript:
(00:00) Christian says if there is a heaven, it has to be here and now. This life is meant for you all to enjoy. But the enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment. >> Oh, I see. I see. >> And in the eyes [music] of that supreme, there's no difference between an ant and an elephant. It's very simple idea. Very simple idea.
(00:22) You go against that law, you will be punished. Automatically punished. Supposing a thief comes and steals [music] your, you know, you girls here wear a lot of jewelry on you. So, thief takes takes like cuts her hand and steals it. Now, another day somebody has got a hand which has gone gangrenous.
(00:41) Surgeon cuts her hand >> Yeah. >> to save the life. Same action. Motivation totally different. [music] >> Yeah. >> So, in the human being, it's the motivation which is judged by the law of karma. >> So, what what is the better way to approach life than trying to control? >> Best way is to surrender to that uh power, infinite power, which is in control of everything.
(01:15) It controls how that ants are working and doing. It controls what the clouds are doing. Controls what the planets are doing. It controls And you would think it can't control your miserable little life. >> [laughter] >> It just imagine how egoistic we are. >> Yeah. >> It controls the whole entire cosmos. >> Mhm.
(01:38) >> Everything goes by clockwork. Because everything in in the cosmos is programmed. >> Yeah. >> Every creature is programmed, except the human being. Only the human being has given the ability to judge, to choose. And only the human being sees the in as duality. Good or bad. >> Mhm. >> All other creatures are programmed.
(02:10) You can never say this is bad tiger, so wicked. He's killing that deer. Morality does not cannot exist for the animal kingdom, only for us. Because I know I can know that is wrong to kill another life for my satisfaction. That life has a absolutely every right to live out his life as as God has planned it. >> Mhm.
(02:37) >> And I'm disrupting it when I want to kill it and eat it. I don't have to live to eat that. I will live in other way. The tiger will not live. So, it is it's it's it's programmed. So, it's not it had you cannot judge it. No judgment of evil and good. Only for human being judgment is there. Good and bad. >> And that comes from the >> sin sin and No, um actually comes from the way we are made.
(03:13) >> But tell me more about that. >> We are not programmed. We are we have the ability to see things as black and white. >> Yeah. >> Or gray. >> Yeah. >> Or every other shade. So, what is the aim of life is the what you should first you want to understand. And that's what religion is for. Most religions will tell you the aim of life is to be a good person on this earth so that you can go up to heaven.
(03:40) Hinduism does not say that. >> Yeah. I was I was raised with that. >> Ah, you need to Krishna says in if there is a heaven, it has to be here and now, he says. Ah, if I ever tell you the saga in the Bhagavad Gita. If there is a saga >> Mhm. >> heaven, it has to be here and now. >> Mhm. >> Not not I'm not that you good here because you want to eat eating a heaven about.
(04:08) Then what is the use of this life then? >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> This life is meant for you to enjoy. Nobody stops you from doing it. But the enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment. >> Ah. >> That is where we call it Dharma. You see? >> Tell me. >> My enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment.
(04:33) >> Yeah. Hmm. >> Cuz see, everybody wants to have their own life. So everybody wants their their own plan for their life. And everybody should be allowed to do as they like. Every country should Why you can't Why are the wars about? What are all these wars about? >> Hmm. >> They want something you have. >> Exactly.
(04:56) >> They have what they're fated to have, what they've they've made to have. The karma has made them have it. You can't go and grab that. >> Hmm. >> You're committing a crime. That is what sin. When you go against the law of the cosmos. >> Hmm. >> Law of the cosmos is Dharma. Dharma righteousness. The law of righteousness.
(05:15) >> Hmm. >> That right law decrees that every creature, not every human being. We think only human being. Every creature has a right to live according to the plan which they were made. Even an ant. And in the eyes of that supreme, there's no difference between an ant and an elephant. >> Yeah. >> The The hunger that a ant feels is as keen as ter- terrible as that of an elephant.
(05:44) Size doesn't make any difference. >> Hmm. >> So we think these are stupid creatures. They are, you know, we should take them away. Throw some picked on them. Tick tick tick tick. >> Hmm. >> Kill them because we can't do it. >> Hmm. >> You're going right that. That is called papa or sin. That is sin. When you go against the law the universe, which is Dharma.
(06:08) >> Mhm. >> There is a law. There is a dharmic cosmic law called Dharma by which everything goes perfectly in tune. And that that Dharma the whole cosmos, the stars, the planets, the everything, the trees, the everything. >> Mhm. >> All these go according to that law of Dharma. They are programmed.
(06:31) They they they That's why the planets don't go crashing against each other like the cars on our roads, Indian roads. I don't know about Portuguese roads, but Indian roads they go crashing because they don't follow the rule. >> Yeah. >> Luckily, these are programmed so there's no crashing there. See, everything is following that Dharma.
(06:52) Even the tiger, even the lion, that is his Dharma. To kill and eat because he has to eat. >> Mhm. >> Only the human being can go against that. That is why only sin and virtue can only be uh thought of of the human being. No other creature. >> Mhm. >> Papa and punya. Sin and virtue. >> Mhm. >> So, it's very simple, really.
(07:20) Very simple, very You go against that law, you will be punished. Automatically punished. It's a huge system, governmental system. >> Oh, yeah. >> Aha. >> Mhm. >> It has its own rules and law. You go against it, automatically you will be punished. That is the law of Karma. >> Yeah. >> That is the law of Karma. What does the law of Karma say? As you think, your motivation, human being, it's not just the action, but the motivation with which he has done that action.
(07:55) >> Tell me more about the meaning, the intention. Yeah, maybe maybe you give an example. >> Uh supposing a thief comes and she says you know you guys here wear a lot of jewelry on them, so thief comes and hand over, she won't hand over, she takes it and I cut the hand and steal. Now another day somebody has uh got a hand with gangrene, yes.
(08:19) >> Mhm. >> Oh, very bad state because he was doing something the machine and he put it >> Mhm. >> He taken to hospital. Surgeon cuts the hand >> Yeah. >> to save the life. Okay. Same action. Same violent action. Motivation totally different. >> Yeah. >> So in the human being it's a motivation which is judged by the law of karma.
(08:46) >> Oh, I see. >> Uh >> Motivation is our intention, right? >> Intention, intention. >> Mhm. >> That is judged. So you may say how nice you look, inside you're thinking you're a really nasty fellow. >> [laughter] >> I see. So if I understand this correctly, we all have our dharma. Right? >> It's a cosmic dharma.
(09:06) Every creature has a cosmic dharma. But only we can go against that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And what you say the most important is our intent, the intention behind our actions. >> I see. But um help me to to understand because you said something very interesting is that you said that the people don't understand the aim of life. >> Yeah. >> So what is it exactly the aim of life? >> So we have four goals of life.
(09:34) >> Okay. >> In Hinduism, dharma, artha, kama, moksha. >> Yeah. >> These are the four. Now dharma is the cosmic dharma >> Yeah. >> which every creature has to follow. >> Mhm. >> Now kama and um dharma artha and kama, these two actually only pertaining to I mean moksha also to to the human being. >> Mhm. >> Kama and artha and kama is that first artha is the desire for the human being for possessions.
(10:02) >> Mhm. >> We we want to to possess. We can't just look at a you know, flower or something and say oh it's beautiful and pass on. No. How do get it? I must have it in my garden. >> Hahaha. >> Yeah. >> So, artha it may be we wealth, it just I mean flower again, anything anything for your house, wife, desire for anything.
(10:23) Artha, that that is also there and that's another one of the goals of human life. Uh dharma artha kama is desire for any type of pleasure, not just sexual pleasure, but any type of pleasure comes under kama. That also is a human being have. >> Mhm. >> Now, last is moksha or liberation from this wheel of life, samsara chakra.
(10:46) >> Okay, from the the previous three. >> Yeah, yeah, that it goes on and on and on. I'm born today I only a child and then I'm born and then I die. [clears throat] Then I don't know what's happening. Then again it's by this time I'm a great grandchild then it will go on and it just goes on and on and on. So, at some point in life the human beings have to think What is it all about? What What is this about? >> Yeah.
(11:11) >> Why do we get born and we think of the same grab things, we receive, fight with each other, then we lust for things and eventually we die leaving everything together. And what happens after that? I mean, it just goes on. We We want to get out of that wheel. That desire that is a desire for moksha or liberation.
(11:31) >> Yeah. >> So, that's the final goal of human life according to Hinduism. So, and I'll tell you you'll realize that artha and kama are those things which can pull the human being down. Lust for money, lust for women, lust for sexual lust for things. These two are the things which can we share it uh in fact with the human with the animal world also.
(11:55) But, that is what is pulling us in the samsara. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But, you will realize that these two are hemmed on one side by dharma, on the other side by moksha. >> Say that again. >> These two come in the middle. >> Yes. >> Dharma artha kama moksha. >> Yes. >> So, these two are hemmed in. Hemmed in. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
(12:16) >> On one side by >> Dharma. >> Dharma and and on the other side by So, if the artha and kama are dharmic, >> Yeah. >> then it will automatically lead to moksha. Automatic. >> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> It's when the artha and kama go against dharma, the cosmic dharma, >> Yeah. >> that you don't get moksha.
(12:39) You come back again. >> Oh. Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Mhm. >> That is where artha. You can a householder naturally wants money. He wants something for his children, but he's perfectly okay if he if he to make some money according to lawful means, not by cutting the other person's throat. >> Yeah. >> If he he has my certain money because actually only the householder can have money actually in our in our system.
(13:07) Because they are supposed to help others. >> Yeah. >> Neither the brahmachari nor the sannyasi can have money. >> Mhm. >> So, if his desire for wealth and desire for pleasure is him is dharmic, that means he should get money out of lawful means. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not by cutting another person's throat. >> Yeah. >> And his kama or his lust to be under control, it should be with his wife, not with the other person's neighbor's wife.
(13:37) >> Yeah. >> Then that means it's dharmic. And he will automatically he was moving toward moksha. >> Oh, I see. I see. I see. >> So, these two are only available for human being, artha and kama. >> Yeah. >> I'm of course they all creatures do have, but but not to the extent that we have. They have all I just said they're programmed.
(13:59) >> Mhm. >> So, we can go against that. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So, this moksha is the goal of life. So, you were asking about the goal and you we should know the goal. You were asking that how is it people go you know, do wrong things? >> Yeah. >> Because they don't know the goal. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I think that was your question.
(14:20) Why >> Yeah. >> So, they don't know the goal. Other religions don't give them. >> I see. I see. >> say you will go to heaven if you do a good here. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, our goal in life is to achieve moksha. Yeah. And and we need to live according to the laws of >> dharma >> dharma.
(14:46) Um how do I know that I'm living according to the laws of dharma? >> Very easy. That cosmic law, I told you dharma says that everyone should be allowed to live their own lives as they the the creator meant them to live. >> Mhm. >> I mean, in our case of in the household and all, certain amount of like for a child if he's there, we should have certain control is there.
(15:11) That's not that is not it isn't coming to that. But when you cheat another person, when you tell lies to another person, all the moral rules in every religion actually tell you what is cosmic dharma. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> That all religions will tell you. That's why but we don't follow that. And here you see that if you don't follow that cosmic dharma, you will be punished by the law of karma. It's automatic law.
(15:40) Automatic. It will it writes every single thing about every thought >> Mhm. >> which passes in the mind is recorded. Instant like this recording here. It's recorded all the time. So, if you go beyond that there are certain the punishments will be there. And also, the law of karma is very just. It's not that it punishes only.
(16:05) If you do good, rewards also are given. >> Oh, I see. >> Uh-huh. Rewards are given. Some people you find are having very happy life and very wonderful life and here and here I'm doing all that. They must have done something in a previous life. And that's why it goes your karma goes along with reincarnation. Because what happens if you die before you're punished or before you're rewarded? Both are there, huh? >> Mhm.
(16:30) >> You have to have a body >> Yeah. >> in order to be punished or in order to be rewarded, both. You have to have a human body or some body. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So then, what happens when you die before that? Very often you find that rogues and rascals have a wonderful time. Wonderful time in as much they have so much of wealth and so on so on.
(16:51) But what they go on inside, God knows. So then, when you die, you don't go to a heaven or hell as it's usually said. You may go for a certain amount of time, but you have to come back again cuz as I said, you have to have a human body or an animal body sometimes >> Yeah. Yeah. >> in order to be punished or to be rewarded.
(17:15) >> Mhm. >> Back you come. So moksha means that So that's a circle of life, right? This thing, death, and then back again, back again. >> Mhm. >> So this is this moksha means the ending of this samsara sa- circle. Circle of samsara. >> Mhm. >> Or to get off that Ferris wheel, you know, in exhibitions you have Ferris wheel.
(17:42) >> Mhm. >> You keep on going and going. Sometimes you say, "I've had enough, I can't I can't." You have to catch hold of the man who is running the whole government. >> [laughter] >> Only he can help. >> Mhm. What is Mataji what what does it mean moksha for us that let's say we live a a life that we go we go to school, we have a job, we have kids, we have bills to pay, and there's just so much happening? What does it practically mean for us moksha? >> So unless you know the whole theory of the how the cosmos is created.
(18:24) See the cosmos is a extremely beautifully done >> Beautiful, yeah. >> Very beautifully done. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> people who have this confusion is the human being. Nobody else has this confusion. And actually the cosmos gives us anything we want. It will provide for your need, but not for your greed. >> Oh. >> Ah. Oh.
(18:49) >> Yeah. >> But my human being very greedy. Constantly wanting more than he can afford. >> Mhm. >> Or more than he deserves. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So, that is where we go against this dynamic law, you know. It's a very automatically dynamic thing. >> Yeah. >> It should run by itself. No interference or anything needed.
(19:15) It's like um I mean our laws, but divine laws are totally, you know, no way you can go against them or anything. Uh-huh. It's a beautifully run. That's why it's a cosmos, not a chaos. >> [laughter] >> Ah. That's why it's known as a cosmos. >> Yeah. >> It's beautifully done. >> Mhm. You mentioned that there's uh the greed.
(19:44) Where does this greed comes from? >> From a general makeup of ego. And also we see another person having something more. We we feel why should why not me? Why can't I also? >> Yeah. >> So. And also you just take the simplest thing we eating. We all We don't really eat to for our needs. We for our greed. >> Yeah. >> And think of it.
(20:14) You are also prepared to take the life [clears throat] of another creature. >> For our own >> In order to not for your need. For how much of time in your mouth? 2 seconds? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Huh? Do you keep that bit of meat and yum yum yum yum for half an hour? No. >> Mhm. >> Yes, you're prepared to take that life. Do you know how these chickens are brought up? Inside the hand like that.
(20:46) Clamped in and they you know they claws they can usually they scratch and their claws become like Here they go round that cage. Have you seen that? It's a most terrible sight. What is the feeling of that chicken? They know that you think that lamb doesn't know it's going to be slaughtered. They know and that feeling of terror inside.
(21:08) You think it will not come into your system when you eat it? This is one the main one of the main reasons against vegetarianism. And India is a country which whole almost the whole continent uh for not for health reasons as they do now in the west. But for moral moral reasons. Because they understood this.
(21:32) They know that how the cosmic works. >> So basically there's a there's a you talk about the cosmos which is beautiful and it works well. >> But not well. >> Perfectly. It works perfectly and what happens is that we go against that natural dharma right? Dharma. >> Cosmic dharma. >> Exactly. The cosmic dharma.
(21:59) And what you mentioned already a couple of times is because of the ego. Maybe you can help us to understand a little bit more about the ego. What's What is the ego? Why do we have the ego? >> Ego is something which is necessary for us to a certain extent. Because each person wants to establish his own you know his own differences and all sorts of thing.
(22:27) The own differences. >> Differences, yeah. >> We want to show off that we know we can do this or we can do that. >> Yeah. >> So, in that way the ego is okay, but then the ego starts ruling us, ruling over the intellect. The intellect is the thing we have which can judge. You know, we you know, for mind, you In English, you have only one word, mind.
(22:49) Uh in uh you see, we have >> Mhm. >> the four aspects of the mind. Manas is the mind which is the collecting house. >> Mhm. >> And what is the instruments it uses? The five senses. >> Mhm. >> By using the five senses, it collects the various different uh you know, ideas through your sight, your eyes, and so on. Then that That's the the only work the mind has.
(23:17) Mind has only the collection center. >> Yes. >> Now, who is it that will analyze this is intellect analyzes. >> Oh. >> What is this? What is that? They're all done immediately, yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, in in Indian Hindu psychology, it's so highly perfect. They They had long, long before you Jung and Freud and so on, long before. They dissected the mind.
(23:40) So, that part of the mind which is analyzing is known as a buddhi. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> And then, where does the ahankara or the ego come? The ahankara or ego comes as saying, "This is good for me. >> Mhm. >> This I want. I, this I which I'm talking about, I want this, I want that. This is not good for me, this is that.
(24:01) So, again, out of all the experiences of the the mind collects all the experience, intellect judges what is that and what is that. Ego decides what is what I want. >> Oh, I see. >> And the chitta is that we have also something called the uh it's a kind of a collection of all our the the many things which you pass through in many lives.
(24:24) So, that's why when you know, that comes into surface, except the especially when you're in deep sleep. Sometimes you find that you're thinking something, well, how do I solve this? You go to sleep. Next morning, hey presto, >> [laughter] >> it's there, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> So, that comes out of the chitta because collection of memories and so on, so many things that you have thought.
(24:49) That's a collection house of all memories of all lives you've passed. >> Mhm. >> So, that all this is concerned. Actually, when you talk of mind, actually the is a is a collection of all these. Manas, buddhi, ahankara, chitta, all four come into that. >> Mhm. >> English is only one word for that. So, that ego is the one which decide whether it's I want it.
(25:20) >> [laughter] >> I want it. Intellect will decide, is it good for me or not? >> Yeah. >> Ah. That is a good intellect will decide, is it good for me or not? Ego says, I don't care. I want it. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Intellect says, look, this food is not good for you. Ego says, I don't care. I must have it. >> Oh, I see. I understood now.
(25:42) >> I want it. Actually, our ego is also the black refraction of the cosmic ego. The Sanskrit word for cosmic ego is Hiranyagarbha. Which actually decides so many things in the cosmos. >> Oh, in terms of the group the group ego. >> We have a You know, it's it's quite complicated, but the thing is the Hindu mind, those rishis, they dissected everything.
(26:15) They They were so amazing, they were. Every single life, you know. And time, for instance, they knew time does not exist except in the mind. Yet, we have a word for the microscopic bit of time as well as a huge enormous segment of time which very recently only Western come to agree that time is a mental concept only very recently.
(26:41) >> Mhm. Is it correct to to say because when we analyze so we the first one is we we understand what's happening with our senses then we analyze and then >> spontaneous. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think that that that that our is it correct to say that our freedom comes from the moment between when we analyze and the ego.
(27:12) Before the ego takes the decision I or >> idea. >> [laughter] >> But how do we go out of that uh >> Second by surrender to the higher force. >> Mhm. >> Through a force which actually that force is there in every every creature because of which we are alive now. >> Yeah. >> Suppose that force leaves us that's that principle which of infinity in us is called the Atman or the life force Jivatma.
(27:43) When that Jivatma leaves this thing your eyes may be perfectly good if you take it and you can transplant it hearing same thing anything heart even transplant. But when you are not you anymore where where is that eye you're talking [laughter] about? So that is a cosmic eye. >> Yeah. >> It's only reflects but because of your very uh you know conditioned as well as uh wrong method of way we have been brought up to think.
(28:11) >> Oh, okay. >> We think it's me this me 5 ft 5 or whatever brown eye brown hair you know this thing so on. I but actually that is a cosmic uh current in you which is doing everything. When that current is switched off no light. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And who wants it money anymore? As fast as possible you should get rid of it.
(28:41) >> Mhm. >> There's no no use to anyone anymore. Such thing which you price so much for so many years in your life. One second. That's it. >> True. >> Lights off. >> [laughter] >> Like we don't we never think of that. We don't want to think of that. We are frightened of death. In fact, the word death makes everybody feel so frightened.
(29:05) So, that in all languages they will never say he died. You will say he passed away. >> [laughter] >> Why not say he died? >> Why is that? >> Because of fear of death. >> Oh. >> Inherent fear of death. You don't want to even say the word because it's very inauspicious. >> [laughter] >> So, what is the best way to to to to to handle >> Accept the fact that life and death go together.
(29:30) They're on the other side of the coin. >> Mhm. >> The coin of life. On my one side is life, one side is death. Before you come here you already taken a passport return return [laughter] ticket. Everybody. Whether elephant or quite live for some years and years or human being or whatever. We all have a return ticket. Yeah. >> And what you say is just just accepting that as part of life.
(29:59) >> Yeah, they don't accept >> We are we are born with that and we we we we're going to go. >> We don't accept that. >> And we have fear about that. >> Yeah, because we don't know what's coming next. >> Oh. >> Uh because maybe you feel especially very great soul or saint or something he has no fear.
(30:18) Yeah, I have quite happy to do. Uh >> [clears throat] >> He got he knows what is going to come to him. Whereas every every if you're a Christian or something if you have a very good life you think I'm going to heaven and I'll be fine. A bad shock when you know that you don't >> [laughter] [laughter] >> So. You know what to do.
(30:43) We fool ourselves in so many ways. >> Mhm. And and Mataji, you you mentioned that it a lot of this comes from the way we are raised. >> Of course. Of course. >> We are conditioned. There's a lot of layers of >> conditioning. >> of conditioning. What is the way for us to to remove these layers? >> Decondition. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You're doing [clears throat] that now.
(31:11) So something something in your karma which has allowed you to to come back to some and find out thing find out what is real, what is unreal. >> I didn't get it. >> See, you you are you have been reconditioned. We are conditioned many way. But fear of the devil >> Yeah. >> fear of hell. This is how the church works.
(31:36) >> Oh, yeah. >> You don't put fear the fear of fear of God. I mean, this terrible to say the fear of >> [laughter] >> One of the most I can say fear of devil maybe, but fear of God? He puts the fear of God in you that you will go to to hell you shall go. Immediately they do something. I mean, you keep a person on the track only if you do fear.
(31:59) >> Yeah. >> You should keep them to on the track due to love. >> Yeah, wow. >> That's what I tell you. >> That's so so beautiful what you just said. >> So that is the truth of life. >> And to what you say that the way we were conditioned, what we need to do is to recondition again. >> First decondition. First decondition.
(32:25) >> How do we do that? >> That's what you're doing now. You're doing that and you already started not only you already finished deconditioning almost I would say and you are reconditioning yourself. So it's a lot of people Now a lot of people do that. They have too many Westerners come and they really like they who scoffed all Hinduism, terrible.
(32:44) Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Then, how is it we have lasted the most long-lasting [laughter] civilization in the world? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Macedonians all came and then read Romans, everything came and went. All very great uh civilization. >> Mhm. >> But, they didn't last. Why is it we have lasted though we have never conquered anyone? >> I mean, we never Yeah.
(33:08) >> It's nothing we did. >> Yeah. >> Only conquer was the truth. The truth has been exposed only in this region. They have spoken. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That's why it has lasted. But, the way we are going, I don't know. >> So, basically we we have like conditionings about a lot of beliefs >> Mhm. >> that that drive the way we act and what we say.
(33:37) >> Mhm. >> We need to undo that. >> First of all, you have to uh somebody somewhere has to give you some idea. That's where the guru comes in. See, the guru is there. Anyone who gives you a positive idea that you are not just a body, mind, and intellect. You are that supreme self. >> Yeah. >> You have that divine divinity in you.
(34:01) We say the divine is That's the difference with the idea of God in Hinduism and other religions. >> Mhm. >> God is not someone who's sitting up there in heaven and giving out punishments. And what sort of God is punishing one's children? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> It's all done by this automatic uh law. >> Exactly. >> law of dharma, automatic.
(34:23) If you go against the dharma, you'll be punished. If you go with that, you'll be rewarded. Automatically it's done. God God We don't See, we are not punished um for our karma, for our action, by some God sitting there. >> Yeah. >> We are punished by our karma. When you say I'm being punished for my karma. >> Yeah.
(34:48) >> That means there's an external thing there. >> Mhm. >> But here's an automatic law. So that you are you are punished by your karma. >> Mhm. >> The karma itself will punish you because immediately it clashes with the your dharma. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's a karma itself which is punishing you. Not some other god sitting above and saying, "Thou shall be damned and go to hell and so on.
(35:17) " >> [laughter] >> It's not that. >> Mhm. Wow. >> an incentive for the human being that everything is within himself. He can change if he wants. He has the power. >> Oh, now there's a a lot that is coming because I was raised exactly the way you were saying there's God is there and he's watching you and if you do it will punish you.
(35:48) If you do bad things, if you do good things. And when you said that God is love. Right? And it's all about follow the the the the laws of of dharma. >> The cosmic law. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Nobody can go against it. >> Yeah. I love that. >> It's a simple thing, very simple. >> Yeah. So meaning that a very important thing that it's important for us is always to analyze our thoughts and also our beliefs about what we >> See analysis means again, it should be an automatic thing.
(36:26) >> But if I'm being conditioned >> Ah, conditioned. So you have to exactly exactly. >> Yeah. >> So you have to decondition yourself. >> Yeah. >> deconditioning is very simple. Because you just say that, "Look, I am responsible for my actions." >> Yeah. >> If I act properly according to the laws of karma, >> Yeah.
(36:47) >> I will automatically evolve. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> I don't have to depend on God. >> Yeah. >> The whole thing is done in because God is in me. >> Yeah. >> I don't have to really go and I know think of someone up there and He's He's imminent. >> Yeah. >> He's I mean there's no place in the whole Ishavasya midam sarvam yat kinchida kinchana that's what the rishi said.
(37:19) Ishavasya Where is God? You ask the rishi the the rishi will answer. He's everywhere. Whatever you can think of in this universe, he's already there. >> Yeah. >> There's nothing beyond that. >> Yeah. >> So, that ability to see that everything is divine, everything is divine. The divinity is in me also. There is something in me.
(37:42) The divinity lives in us that divinity is in my mind. But again being human beings we can say oh why did you do this? Why have I Then immediately the answer we give is that your own karma. If not in this life, another life. >> Okay, yeah. >> You have to pay it back. You have to pay it back. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh you'll be given a rent-free house to live in.
(38:03) >> [laughter] >> But you have to pay back your karma. >> Mhm. >> It's all automatic. You can make it more personal by what? Surrender to that force. Guide me. Tell me what to do. What should I do? Minimum planning, minimum. And things will so fold as you >> Because the more we try to control, the more we get stuck and the more we don't expand, right? And the more Mhm.
(38:37) >> Because that that you see it's a universal force which is omniscient and omnipotent, both. What does it mean? It's all powerful? >> Yeah. >> And all knowing. >> Mhm. >> You know nothing. And I said, am I fall dead just now? >> Yeah. >> I was giving a talk actually on that day. Giving a talk. Halfway through pain was so intense.
(39:03) >> Yeah. >> I just stopped. And rushed to hospital. I never I mean never can I could have dreamt about it. Infinite. >> Yeah. >> Infinite potential you have. >> And and the way we can >> Maintain yourself. >> Yeah. So it's okay to do some planning. >> You have to because >> Because we have to. >> Because of the modern world you do book tickets and stuff like minimum thing.
(39:23) >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But last minute it can get cancelled. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Ah, you're not under control. It's not under your control. >> Mhm. >> You have to accept that fact. >> Yeah. Mhm. Mataji, now it's um where I'm I am now my mind is going uh thinking about so how can you give me some uh examples of about what are some laws of Dharma that I can follow in my life that I know it's in line with the the >> There's only one law of Dharma.
(40:02) >> Tell me. >> Cosmic Dharma. I told you that. >> Yeah. >> Every creature, everything has a right to live its own life. >> Okay. >> Including you. >> Yes. >> So if your your life is dependent on the hurting another person's life >> Yeah. >> That's against the law. >> That's against the law. Yeah. >> Very simple law.
(40:26) >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Give give me some examples of of how can we in our busy lives or like in the city where so much happening how can we manage >> Somebody is horning the car behind you. Don't do. Don't do. Don't do. Obviously you want somewhere. Okay. I'll give him a little light. Little give Allow him to go. Pass, pass, pass.
(40:51) >> Mhm. >> He said, "Oh, that's it. Get out." I will not let you go. >> Yeah. >> That's the attitude. What's a cat doing over there? >> [laughter] >> It's my right away. >> Yeah. >> It's actually very simple. It's not very complete. Everybody knows it also. No thief, no murderer can say I didn't know it was wrong to steal.
(41:15) >> Yeah. >> I didn't know it was wrong to murder. Nobody can say that. >> Mhm. >> They know anyway. >> Mhm. >> That That conscience is there, no? >> Mhm. So, basically one of the the the most the only law of Dharma, it's mostly about you leave and you let live. >> Ah. >> That's That's what you That's what you say.
(41:39) And if you leave like >> love, you know? Like you You know, you have some feelings of love. That dog wants to come in. So, why not let it come in and sit there? >> Yeah. I see. Yeah. >> I can push it out. I can because I've the higher authority here, but but if it doesn't upset, why not let it do also what it wants? >> I see. Yeah.
(42:00) >> It was here especially here I find they treat animals very badly, especially dogs and cats and so. It's very sad. That's not how we were meant to >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Tell me you've been in interviewing so many wonderful gurus, you said. Haven't I I mean And you still don't know any of these basic >> [laughter] >> and the things of Hinduism? How is it possible? >> No, I'm getting many, many pieces.
(42:26) Uh but what I love is that you are getting me you're making me understand in a very simple way that I'm really enjoying. >> So, what do they tell you? What do they What do you question them about? >> No, I mean I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the mind. I learned a lot about identity, about fear, about So, now I think you are in a >> This is basic.
(42:51) >> Yeah. >> Identity, period, all these things disappear when you know the basics of Hindu the basic Hinduism this is. >> Yeah. >> Which the Hindus themselves and who actually don't follow. I'm sorry to say. >> Okay. [clears throat] >> But uh because we are caught up in so much of external ritualism that we forget what is the basic. Our basic is this.
(43:16) >> Mhm. And something that you mentioned very very um something that um what I love is that we have the power in every every moment to take the decision. Every decision can be according to the laws of Dharma or not. And it's and it's and also it's something that it builds. Once we get used to it, it's like a habit.
(43:40) >> Yes. >> We can create a habit of harming or we can create the harming of love, of caring, of But what you think is that if we have that in every interaction we have that's how we build >> a a dharmic life. >> dharmic life >> automatically goes to moksha. >> Okay. Yeah. >> automatic >> Yeah. >> have to work for moksha.
(44:02) >> Yeah. Yeah. Then something that it would could be interesting to to explore is this um is this part of connecting with others, building relationships. >> See, the moment you say other >> Mhm. >> you create a border. Immediately look at me. I'm not seeing Rodrigo. Is it? Am I spe- am I pronouncing it rightly? >> Very well.
(44:30) >> Okay. Well, I'm seeing the divine in you. So, where's the division? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> division. >> Yeah. >> It's only when I see Rodrigo and not see divine that the division comes. Then I then you're a Portuguese, you're a man, you're a wearing the proper All these differences come up. If I see the divine, you and I same.
(44:52) No difference. You difference. >> Yeah. >> We are trained to see the differences. >> That's exactly that. Yeah. >> And not to see that that infinite in everything. Everything, not every human being. Everything. The ant. The ant taking one little thing and going and then he call all his neighbors and they all come and then so beautifully they >> [laughter] >> Yeah.
(45:21) >> An ant like you just watch them. Whole lot of stuff you can learn from them. >> Yeah. >> They're amazing. They'll immediately call their friends and their relations. We will immediately keep it away. >> Yeah. >> Something good we'll keep it away quickly. You never think of sharing. >> If even in our relationships, let's say even with our partners, even when when there's love, we give love but >> There is some expectation.
(45:52) >> Exactly. So, when we are in in our relationships, how do we >> See that see that divinity in that person. >> Yes. >> But there will be differences, but differences are a joy actually because we are we are the only ones who can enjoy both the sides of the coin of life, right? Good and bad. >> Yes. >> So sometimes she's very cantankerous and you know cantankerous and okay, never mind. She's that mood today.
(46:19) >> [laughter] >> Let it be. That's also a joy. It's a play of that divine. Because the differences are what makes life interesting. That's why we are living in a dualistic world. Very boring if everybody is very good good good good good all the time. >> [laughter] >> That's why we have pickle in our in our in our food.
(46:42) The pickle will smell >> [laughter] >> Yes. >> So everything is very sweet and nice, you know, very good pickle. Thank [laughter] you all. Thank you all. >> Mhm. >> But be sure to understand that basically it's all the same. It's only the top. The cake is the same only that they put all sorts of you know icing over it.
(47:07) >> Yeah. And that what you say that you say where is the what we we criticize someone when someone doesn't behave the way we we expect it's because of our conditioning, right? >> Yes, yes. >> Because okay, no. I'm expecting the person to behave as like this. The person doesn't behave like that. I get frustrated. I get stressed.
(47:31) And what you say is that there's no good or bad. You just accept the the the person that >> There both good and bad. That is how the world works. >> There's >> They're both good and >> and bad is is based on our interpretation, right? >> Right? >> So what is good for one person? Yeah, you you may like masala chai.
(47:55) You say no, only herbal chai >> Okay. >> Masala chai good for me, herbal chai good for you. Okay, no problem. >> Mhm. >> So you are you are you are accepting that. >> Mhm. >> That little bit of sugar is so nice for the ant. >> Yeah. >> But I don't like to pick it up from the ground and have it or my it's not good for me. >> Yeah. >> But let it do what it likes.
(48:15) >> Yeah. >> Let and live and let live. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, acceptance. >> That's very That's very difficult. Yeah, that's what I think makes it very difficult because it's hard for us to accept um that we we we see I I think we see a lot I all this is me. >> no? Conditioning. >> Yeah. >> Most of it is good.
(48:41) That's why education is very important. Education though in in British conquered us through education. They changed our whole education system. McCauley came and put his own educate the education which is which is was to make us racist the slaves. So that's how the pattern got disrupted. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Education very important.
(49:08) I keep on telling all of this. From From the time you were small, that conditioning was always there. So many things. So, that basic education which we used to give our children at one time, now not anymore. If that is given, that's why we had a race of amazing people. All the the the the the what what do you the discoveries made in India thousands and thousands of years ago, which only now only now in the 20th 19th and 20th centuries with the advent of quantum physics have has the West discovered.
(49:44) How would they discover? They lived in thousands of years ago because they did not depend on this stupid little 5-ft >> Yeah. >> uh foot you know, body of theirs and their intellect there. They depended immediate listening to that divinity which had everything, which is omniscient >> Yeah. >> and works beyond space and time.
(50:07) >> Mhm. >> They had immediate [clears throat] access to that rishis. That's why they're called rishis. >> Yeah. >> They had immediate access. So, that knowledge is came from the divine. So, it never changed. It's just because and we were we were blamed for all our superstitious rubbish which we had. But, now slowly even the Western discovering that.
(50:31) >> Yeah. >> What we have said is that Maya brings the word Maya. All the rubbish. What is this Maya Maya? Today, what is quantum physics saying? What is What is it saying? >> Yeah. >> Then, this thing there is nothing called physical thing. There's nothing called This is hard hard uh thing you think.
(50:50) They said, "No, no, no. It's a play of energy." >> Mhm. >> Matter is only E = mc². Matter is only energy in motion. >> Mhm. >> What does it mean? What the Rishi says all Maya. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You are you're imagining a world which does not really exist. >> [laughter] >> All right. >> Isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. >> They said that long ago.
(51:21) In fact, every discovery which you're making now has already been said in long ago by the Rishi because they had direct access to the source of wisdom. Direct access. >> Ma- Mataji, you talk a lot about education. Um um how do I know today what is a good education? What am I getting a good education or or not? >> Every country has its own differences, you know? They all have different types of education.
(51:54) I don't know. You see, education nowadays is only which gives you fact facts and figures. Yeah, my my my grandchild in in London learns to speak uh Portuguese or Spanish. >> Mhm. >> How is it going to help her to become a good person? They waste they waste their best time of their year of their lives learning rubbish which they don't they will never use again.
(52:22) So, that basic education of who you are, what I want to be, what's a human being, what are the qualifications, what is the law nature, what is the all these are not given. >> Mhm. >> So, that that was of essential in our ancient Gurukula system. Very important. The The children lived with the Guru and learned not only by his words but by his action, how he lived his life.
(52:47) Getting up early in the morning, worshipping, listening, writing. So, that way of life. That's why Hinduism is called a way of life, not just a religion not a religion. Every second of the day from the time you wake up to the time you mhm lie down, you you should be a Hindu. You wake up by before we put up put on the touch this thing and say forgive me, Mother Earth, for stamping on you.
(53:15) >> Ah, beautiful. >> first thing we do. >> So, that's the the education that you you think is missing. And that's the base of life. That's the the the the >> What is the nature of life? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What is that power force which you know some buses and buses and buses. What is it? >> Mhm. >> What is it How is it we found out about it? What is it behind that bulb which makes it shine? I can't see that.
(53:46) I can only see the bulb. I can't see the bulb. And if the force was not there, bulb wouldn't shine. >> Yeah. >> So, that these questions are not given to the children. They have to be very thought Think of themselves with it. So, stifle the original capacity of a daughter stifle by the education given given to you. That's what I feel.
(54:07) I feel very positive and they and my children blame all Why are you telling them that Let's I let learn Spanish if she wants. Let her learn Spanish. What do I care? What's the most beautiful best years of one's life. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And they should be learning of who are you? How do I live a good life? How do I get on with people? What is the meaning of this word? What is All this is a basic things to every human being that should be taught, you know? >> Yeah.
(54:36) >> If that is not taught, then I feel that anything any other education is useless. After knowing that, of course, you can, you know, go engineering or this or that. But then, you already have some basis of your own because you may be the best engineer of the world or the scientist of the world, but eventually you end up shooting yourself because you're so frustrated.
(54:59) >> Yeah. >> You have best brain in the world. But he shoots himself. Why? It's such frustration. >> Mhm. >> And nobody gives the answers. >> Yeah, I see. >> Very important that I keep on telling everybody. Nobody listens to me, of course. >> [laughter] >> It's okay. What to do? >> Mhm. I think to to to end our conversation, I would like to end on a topic which I mean related to what we are talking with a lot of times not even we are harsh with other people, but we are harsh with ourselves.
(55:43) >> Mhm. >> There's a lot of like uh lack of self-love. Um how do I how do I um practice more self uh love? >> Why are you having self-hate? Because you're doing the wrong things. You're thinking the wrong thoughts. That's what I mean. The basically that that information should be given to you, who are you? What is your goal in life? >> Mhm.
(56:10) >> People have no goals in life anymore. Money is the only goal. Everywhere. Everything else can go about money. I've seen children who would cheat their parents, old parents. They've given them all their money and all that. And then they don't even bother to look after them. They throw them into a um cheapest of all old age home.
(56:36) >> Money is everything. I mean, it's amazing world we live in. Only money counts. Nothing else. And everywhere, here in India also. Same thing. It's very sad to see that. It has so much power, but you can't see it now. >> Yeah. >> Before at least I had gold coins, silver coins. Or even paper notes even. Now nothing.
(57:02) >> Exactly. >> It is some I I can't believe it. It was a somewhat a app some app. I can't see but very powerful. >> [laughter] >> All powerful. >> You you mentioned that it's important for us to have goals. >> Goals are only material. >> Yeah. What are some What are some um beautiful and empowering goals >> This is what we are in in Hinduism we are given four goals from beginning.
(57:34) Dharma, artha, kama, moksha. Artha and kama belong only to this world, but it has to be dharmic. >> Dharmic, yeah. >> Dharmic way you make money, no problem. >> Oh, I see. >> Dharmic way you have pleasure, no problem. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Ah, then automatically leads to moksha. >> I think we we we have I understand.
(57:58) So, it doesn't matter what whatever it is your goal, [clears throat] but it needs to be aligned with your dharma. Right? That's That's what you say. You can >> The goal is You know, your goal is have maybe what I don't know. Maybe a Hindu's goal is have salvation, but anybody's goal is have pleasure. Okay, have pleasure. Never mind.
(58:21) But, be dharmic about it. >> Yes. >> Don't grab the other person's thing to make your your goal come correct. >> Yeah. >> If it's dharmic, then artha and kama both can be done. Because that's a human nature. We have that nature. We want acquisition. We want love. We want pleasure. That's a human nature. So, that's okay.
(58:43) It's accepted provided it's dharmic. Anybody who don't believe in moksha, it will automatically lead you to moksha. >> Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Mataji, I think today you I I I've been coming to India and there's something that attracts me in India. There's a a wisdom and a spirituality that attracts me.
(59:10) And today you made me feel very connected to that wisdom and make me understand that's why I come to India is to understand the beautiful wisdom that India has to to offer and I think the West has a lot to learn from. So, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Om Shanti
(1:00:14) Shanti Shanti Hari Om
Author Name:Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@somethingbigger
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZaF2xRJK0
Title: Heaven is Here and Now | Dharma, Karma & Moksha | Vanamali Mataji x Rodrigo Canelas
Author Name: Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Description: ➡️Law of Karma Explained: why God doesn't punish you, your karma does | Vanamali Mataji
➡️Why bad things happen to good people, and how dharma, karma & moksha really work | Rodrigo Canelas
➡️Hindu Mystic Explains Dharma, Karma & Moksha | Vanamali Mataji x Rodrigo Canelas
Guest suggestions: https://forms.gle/uyAb1ZsKZZ1eSCFF6
Join the team: hello@somethingbigger.com
Partnerships & sponsorships: partnerships@somethingbigger.com
In Today's Episode :
In this conversation, Rodrigo Canelas sits down with Vanamali Mataji, spiritual teacher and author of books on Krishna, Rama, Shiva and the Bhagavad Gita, to understand the basics of Hinduism that even many Hindus have forgotten. Mataji explains why Hinduism does not promise a heaven after death, how the cosmic law of dharma keeps the entire universe running like clockwork, and why every creature, from an ant to an elephant, has the same right to live. She breaks down the law of karma through a powerful example: a thief and a surgeon can perform the same action, yet karma judges them completely differently, because it is the intention that counts.
The conversation goes deep into the four goals of life (dharma, artha, kama and moksha), the four aspects of the mind, the ego, the fear of death, and how we can decondition ourselves to live with love instead of fear. Mataji also shares how to see the divine in every person, how to love without expectation, and why acceptance is the key to a peaceful life.
What You Will Discover :-
💠Why Hinduism says heaven is here and now
💠What dharma really means: the one cosmic law
💠Why only human beings can sin
💠The law of karma: why intention matters more than action
💠The four goals of life: dharma, artha, kama and moksha
💠How karma and reincarnation work together
💠What moksha means for a normal life with work, family and bills
💠Why the universe provides for your need, not your greed
💠The four parts of the mind: manas, buddhi, ahamkara and chitta
💠 How to overcome the fear of death
💠Why we should live by love, not by the fear of God
💠How to see the divine in everyone
💠How to set life goals that are aligned with dharma
Timestamps :🎙️
00:00 Introduction
01:01 Surrender, Control & Free Will
03:24 Aim of Life: Heaven Is Here
04:24 What Is Dharma?
07:36 Law of Karma & Intention
09:31 Four Goals of Life
15:59 Karma, Rebirth & Moksha
18:38 Need, Not Greed
22:01 Ego & the Four Parts of Mind
27:01 Freedom & the Atman
28:58 Fear of Death
30:45 Breaking Conditioning: Fear vs Love
34:39 Karma Punishes, Not God
39:43 Dharma in Daily Life
44:04 Seeing the Divine in Others
49:28 Rishis & Quantum Physics
51:34 What Is Real Education?
55:29 Self-Love & Dharmic Goals
58:55 Closing Thoughts
Today's Episode Highlights :
"If there is a heaven, it has to be here and now."
"Enjoy this life, but not at the cost of another person's disappointment."
"In the eyes of the Supreme, there is no difference between an ant and an elephant."
"The universe will provide for your need, but not for your greed."
"Keep a person on the right track through love, not fear."
About Our Guest :
Vanamali Mataji is a spiritual teacher and author of books on Hindu scripture, including The Complete Life of Krishna, The Complete Life of Rama, Shiva and Nitya Yoga: Essays on the Bhagavad Gita. A devotee of Krishna, she is associated with Vanamali Gita Yogashram on the banks of the Ganga in Rishikesh. Through the ashram, she supports widows with rations and helps run a village school in the Himalayas and a tribal school in Kerala.
Guest Social Links :
Website : https://www.vanamaliashram.org
YouTube : / @vanamalimataji7682
Follow Rodrigo on Social Media:
Spotify:🎧 https://open.spotify.com/show/5jpwQGF...
Something Bigger Show Clips: / @somethingbiggerclips
Instagram: / rodrigocanelas
Instagram (Show): / somethingbiggershow
X (Twitter): https://x.com/rodrigo_canelas
LinkedIn: / rodrigocanelas
#krishna #conciousliving #lifegoals
Transcript:
(00:00) Christian says if there is a heaven, it has to be here and now. This life is meant for you all to enjoy. But the enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment. >> Oh, I see. I see. >> And in the eyes [music] of that supreme, there's no difference between an ant and an elephant. It's very simple idea. Very simple idea.
(00:22) You go against that law, you will be punished. Automatically punished. Supposing a thief comes and steals [music] your, you know, you girls here wear a lot of jewelry on you. So, thief takes takes like cuts her hand and steals it. Now, another day somebody has got a hand which has gone gangrenous.
(00:41) Surgeon cuts her hand >> Yeah. >> to save the life. Same action. Motivation totally different. [music] >> Yeah. >> So, in the human being, it's the motivation which is judged by the law of karma. >> So, what what is the better way to approach life than trying to control? >> Best way is to surrender to that uh power, infinite power, which is in control of everything.
(01:15) It controls how that ants are working and doing. It controls what the clouds are doing. Controls what the planets are doing. It controls And you would think it can't control your miserable little life. >> [laughter] >> It just imagine how egoistic we are. >> Yeah. >> It controls the whole entire cosmos. >> Mhm.
(01:38) >> Everything goes by clockwork. Because everything in in the cosmos is programmed. >> Yeah. >> Every creature is programmed, except the human being. Only the human being has given the ability to judge, to choose. And only the human being sees the in as duality. Good or bad. >> Mhm. >> All other creatures are programmed.
(02:10) You can never say this is bad tiger, so wicked. He's killing that deer. Morality does not cannot exist for the animal kingdom, only for us. Because I know I can know that is wrong to kill another life for my satisfaction. That life has a absolutely every right to live out his life as as God has planned it. >> Mhm.
(02:37) >> And I'm disrupting it when I want to kill it and eat it. I don't have to live to eat that. I will live in other way. The tiger will not live. So, it is it's it's it's programmed. So, it's not it had you cannot judge it. No judgment of evil and good. Only for human being judgment is there. Good and bad. >> And that comes from the >> sin sin and No, um actually comes from the way we are made.
(03:13) >> But tell me more about that. >> We are not programmed. We are we have the ability to see things as black and white. >> Yeah. >> Or gray. >> Yeah. >> Or every other shade. So, what is the aim of life is the what you should first you want to understand. And that's what religion is for. Most religions will tell you the aim of life is to be a good person on this earth so that you can go up to heaven.
(03:40) Hinduism does not say that. >> Yeah. I was I was raised with that. >> Ah, you need to Krishna says in if there is a heaven, it has to be here and now, he says. Ah, if I ever tell you the saga in the Bhagavad Gita. If there is a saga >> Mhm. >> heaven, it has to be here and now. >> Mhm. >> Not not I'm not that you good here because you want to eat eating a heaven about.
(04:08) Then what is the use of this life then? >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> This life is meant for you to enjoy. Nobody stops you from doing it. But the enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment. >> Ah. >> That is where we call it Dharma. You see? >> Tell me. >> My enjoyment should not be at the cost of another person's disappointment.
(04:33) >> Yeah. Hmm. >> Cuz see, everybody wants to have their own life. So everybody wants their their own plan for their life. And everybody should be allowed to do as they like. Every country should Why you can't Why are the wars about? What are all these wars about? >> Hmm. >> They want something you have. >> Exactly.
(04:56) >> They have what they're fated to have, what they've they've made to have. The karma has made them have it. You can't go and grab that. >> Hmm. >> You're committing a crime. That is what sin. When you go against the law of the cosmos. >> Hmm. >> Law of the cosmos is Dharma. Dharma righteousness. The law of righteousness.
(05:15) >> Hmm. >> That right law decrees that every creature, not every human being. We think only human being. Every creature has a right to live according to the plan which they were made. Even an ant. And in the eyes of that supreme, there's no difference between an ant and an elephant. >> Yeah. >> The The hunger that a ant feels is as keen as ter- terrible as that of an elephant.
(05:44) Size doesn't make any difference. >> Hmm. >> So we think these are stupid creatures. They are, you know, we should take them away. Throw some picked on them. Tick tick tick tick. >> Hmm. >> Kill them because we can't do it. >> Hmm. >> You're going right that. That is called papa or sin. That is sin. When you go against the law the universe, which is Dharma.
(06:08) >> Mhm. >> There is a law. There is a dharmic cosmic law called Dharma by which everything goes perfectly in tune. And that that Dharma the whole cosmos, the stars, the planets, the everything, the trees, the everything. >> Mhm. >> All these go according to that law of Dharma. They are programmed.
(06:31) They they they That's why the planets don't go crashing against each other like the cars on our roads, Indian roads. I don't know about Portuguese roads, but Indian roads they go crashing because they don't follow the rule. >> Yeah. >> Luckily, these are programmed so there's no crashing there. See, everything is following that Dharma.
(06:52) Even the tiger, even the lion, that is his Dharma. To kill and eat because he has to eat. >> Mhm. >> Only the human being can go against that. That is why only sin and virtue can only be uh thought of of the human being. No other creature. >> Mhm. >> Papa and punya. Sin and virtue. >> Mhm. >> So, it's very simple, really.
(07:20) Very simple, very You go against that law, you will be punished. Automatically punished. It's a huge system, governmental system. >> Oh, yeah. >> Aha. >> Mhm. >> It has its own rules and law. You go against it, automatically you will be punished. That is the law of Karma. >> Yeah. >> That is the law of Karma. What does the law of Karma say? As you think, your motivation, human being, it's not just the action, but the motivation with which he has done that action.
(07:55) >> Tell me more about the meaning, the intention. Yeah, maybe maybe you give an example. >> Uh supposing a thief comes and she says you know you guys here wear a lot of jewelry on them, so thief comes and hand over, she won't hand over, she takes it and I cut the hand and steal. Now another day somebody has uh got a hand with gangrene, yes.
(08:19) >> Mhm. >> Oh, very bad state because he was doing something the machine and he put it >> Mhm. >> He taken to hospital. Surgeon cuts the hand >> Yeah. >> to save the life. Okay. Same action. Same violent action. Motivation totally different. >> Yeah. >> So in the human being it's a motivation which is judged by the law of karma.
(08:46) >> Oh, I see. >> Uh >> Motivation is our intention, right? >> Intention, intention. >> Mhm. >> That is judged. So you may say how nice you look, inside you're thinking you're a really nasty fellow. >> [laughter] >> I see. So if I understand this correctly, we all have our dharma. Right? >> It's a cosmic dharma.
(09:06) Every creature has a cosmic dharma. But only we can go against that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And what you say the most important is our intent, the intention behind our actions. >> I see. But um help me to to understand because you said something very interesting is that you said that the people don't understand the aim of life. >> Yeah. >> So what is it exactly the aim of life? >> So we have four goals of life.
(09:34) >> Okay. >> In Hinduism, dharma, artha, kama, moksha. >> Yeah. >> These are the four. Now dharma is the cosmic dharma >> Yeah. >> which every creature has to follow. >> Mhm. >> Now kama and um dharma artha and kama, these two actually only pertaining to I mean moksha also to to the human being. >> Mhm. >> Kama and artha and kama is that first artha is the desire for the human being for possessions.
(10:02) >> Mhm. >> We we want to to possess. We can't just look at a you know, flower or something and say oh it's beautiful and pass on. No. How do get it? I must have it in my garden. >> Hahaha. >> Yeah. >> So, artha it may be we wealth, it just I mean flower again, anything anything for your house, wife, desire for anything.
(10:23) Artha, that that is also there and that's another one of the goals of human life. Uh dharma artha kama is desire for any type of pleasure, not just sexual pleasure, but any type of pleasure comes under kama. That also is a human being have. >> Mhm. >> Now, last is moksha or liberation from this wheel of life, samsara chakra.
(10:46) >> Okay, from the the previous three. >> Yeah, yeah, that it goes on and on and on. I'm born today I only a child and then I'm born and then I die. [clears throat] Then I don't know what's happening. Then again it's by this time I'm a great grandchild then it will go on and it just goes on and on and on. So, at some point in life the human beings have to think What is it all about? What What is this about? >> Yeah.
(11:11) >> Why do we get born and we think of the same grab things, we receive, fight with each other, then we lust for things and eventually we die leaving everything together. And what happens after that? I mean, it just goes on. We We want to get out of that wheel. That desire that is a desire for moksha or liberation.
(11:31) >> Yeah. >> So, that's the final goal of human life according to Hinduism. So, and I'll tell you you'll realize that artha and kama are those things which can pull the human being down. Lust for money, lust for women, lust for sexual lust for things. These two are the things which can we share it uh in fact with the human with the animal world also.
(11:55) But, that is what is pulling us in the samsara. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But, you will realize that these two are hemmed on one side by dharma, on the other side by moksha. >> Say that again. >> These two come in the middle. >> Yes. >> Dharma artha kama moksha. >> Yes. >> So, these two are hemmed in. Hemmed in. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
(12:16) >> On one side by >> Dharma. >> Dharma and and on the other side by So, if the artha and kama are dharmic, >> Yeah. >> then it will automatically lead to moksha. Automatic. >> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> It's when the artha and kama go against dharma, the cosmic dharma, >> Yeah. >> that you don't get moksha.
(12:39) You come back again. >> Oh. Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Mhm. >> That is where artha. You can a householder naturally wants money. He wants something for his children, but he's perfectly okay if he if he to make some money according to lawful means, not by cutting the other person's throat. >> Yeah. >> If he he has my certain money because actually only the householder can have money actually in our in our system.
(13:07) Because they are supposed to help others. >> Yeah. >> Neither the brahmachari nor the sannyasi can have money. >> Mhm. >> So, if his desire for wealth and desire for pleasure is him is dharmic, that means he should get money out of lawful means. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not by cutting another person's throat. >> Yeah. >> And his kama or his lust to be under control, it should be with his wife, not with the other person's neighbor's wife.
(13:37) >> Yeah. >> Then that means it's dharmic. And he will automatically he was moving toward moksha. >> Oh, I see. I see. I see. >> So, these two are only available for human being, artha and kama. >> Yeah. >> I'm of course they all creatures do have, but but not to the extent that we have. They have all I just said they're programmed.
(13:59) >> Mhm. >> So, we can go against that. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So, this moksha is the goal of life. So, you were asking about the goal and you we should know the goal. You were asking that how is it people go you know, do wrong things? >> Yeah. >> Because they don't know the goal. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I think that was your question.
(14:20) Why >> Yeah. >> So, they don't know the goal. Other religions don't give them. >> I see. I see. >> say you will go to heaven if you do a good here. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, our goal in life is to achieve moksha. Yeah. And and we need to live according to the laws of >> dharma >> dharma.
(14:46) Um how do I know that I'm living according to the laws of dharma? >> Very easy. That cosmic law, I told you dharma says that everyone should be allowed to live their own lives as they the the creator meant them to live. >> Mhm. >> I mean, in our case of in the household and all, certain amount of like for a child if he's there, we should have certain control is there.
(15:11) That's not that is not it isn't coming to that. But when you cheat another person, when you tell lies to another person, all the moral rules in every religion actually tell you what is cosmic dharma. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> That all religions will tell you. That's why but we don't follow that. And here you see that if you don't follow that cosmic dharma, you will be punished by the law of karma. It's automatic law.
(15:40) Automatic. It will it writes every single thing about every thought >> Mhm. >> which passes in the mind is recorded. Instant like this recording here. It's recorded all the time. So, if you go beyond that there are certain the punishments will be there. And also, the law of karma is very just. It's not that it punishes only.
(16:05) If you do good, rewards also are given. >> Oh, I see. >> Uh-huh. Rewards are given. Some people you find are having very happy life and very wonderful life and here and here I'm doing all that. They must have done something in a previous life. And that's why it goes your karma goes along with reincarnation. Because what happens if you die before you're punished or before you're rewarded? Both are there, huh? >> Mhm.
(16:30) >> You have to have a body >> Yeah. >> in order to be punished or in order to be rewarded, both. You have to have a human body or some body. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So then, what happens when you die before that? Very often you find that rogues and rascals have a wonderful time. Wonderful time in as much they have so much of wealth and so on so on.
(16:51) But what they go on inside, God knows. So then, when you die, you don't go to a heaven or hell as it's usually said. You may go for a certain amount of time, but you have to come back again cuz as I said, you have to have a human body or an animal body sometimes >> Yeah. Yeah. >> in order to be punished or to be rewarded.
(17:15) >> Mhm. >> Back you come. So moksha means that So that's a circle of life, right? This thing, death, and then back again, back again. >> Mhm. >> So this is this moksha means the ending of this samsara sa- circle. Circle of samsara. >> Mhm. >> Or to get off that Ferris wheel, you know, in exhibitions you have Ferris wheel.
(17:42) >> Mhm. >> You keep on going and going. Sometimes you say, "I've had enough, I can't I can't." You have to catch hold of the man who is running the whole government. >> [laughter] >> Only he can help. >> Mhm. What is Mataji what what does it mean moksha for us that let's say we live a a life that we go we go to school, we have a job, we have kids, we have bills to pay, and there's just so much happening? What does it practically mean for us moksha? >> So unless you know the whole theory of the how the cosmos is created.
(18:24) See the cosmos is a extremely beautifully done >> Beautiful, yeah. >> Very beautifully done. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> people who have this confusion is the human being. Nobody else has this confusion. And actually the cosmos gives us anything we want. It will provide for your need, but not for your greed. >> Oh. >> Ah. Oh.
(18:49) >> Yeah. >> But my human being very greedy. Constantly wanting more than he can afford. >> Mhm. >> Or more than he deserves. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So, that is where we go against this dynamic law, you know. It's a very automatically dynamic thing. >> Yeah. >> It should run by itself. No interference or anything needed.
(19:15) It's like um I mean our laws, but divine laws are totally, you know, no way you can go against them or anything. Uh-huh. It's a beautifully run. That's why it's a cosmos, not a chaos. >> [laughter] >> Ah. That's why it's known as a cosmos. >> Yeah. >> It's beautifully done. >> Mhm. You mentioned that there's uh the greed.
(19:44) Where does this greed comes from? >> From a general makeup of ego. And also we see another person having something more. We we feel why should why not me? Why can't I also? >> Yeah. >> So. And also you just take the simplest thing we eating. We all We don't really eat to for our needs. We for our greed. >> Yeah. >> And think of it.
(20:14) You are also prepared to take the life [clears throat] of another creature. >> For our own >> In order to not for your need. For how much of time in your mouth? 2 seconds? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Huh? Do you keep that bit of meat and yum yum yum yum for half an hour? No. >> Mhm. >> Yes, you're prepared to take that life. Do you know how these chickens are brought up? Inside the hand like that.
(20:46) Clamped in and they you know they claws they can usually they scratch and their claws become like Here they go round that cage. Have you seen that? It's a most terrible sight. What is the feeling of that chicken? They know that you think that lamb doesn't know it's going to be slaughtered. They know and that feeling of terror inside.
(21:08) You think it will not come into your system when you eat it? This is one the main one of the main reasons against vegetarianism. And India is a country which whole almost the whole continent uh for not for health reasons as they do now in the west. But for moral moral reasons. Because they understood this.
(21:32) They know that how the cosmic works. >> So basically there's a there's a you talk about the cosmos which is beautiful and it works well. >> But not well. >> Perfectly. It works perfectly and what happens is that we go against that natural dharma right? Dharma. >> Cosmic dharma. >> Exactly. The cosmic dharma.
(21:59) And what you mentioned already a couple of times is because of the ego. Maybe you can help us to understand a little bit more about the ego. What's What is the ego? Why do we have the ego? >> Ego is something which is necessary for us to a certain extent. Because each person wants to establish his own you know his own differences and all sorts of thing.
(22:27) The own differences. >> Differences, yeah. >> We want to show off that we know we can do this or we can do that. >> Yeah. >> So, in that way the ego is okay, but then the ego starts ruling us, ruling over the intellect. The intellect is the thing we have which can judge. You know, we you know, for mind, you In English, you have only one word, mind.
(22:49) Uh in uh you see, we have >> Mhm. >> the four aspects of the mind. Manas is the mind which is the collecting house. >> Mhm. >> And what is the instruments it uses? The five senses. >> Mhm. >> By using the five senses, it collects the various different uh you know, ideas through your sight, your eyes, and so on. Then that That's the the only work the mind has.
(23:17) Mind has only the collection center. >> Yes. >> Now, who is it that will analyze this is intellect analyzes. >> Oh. >> What is this? What is that? They're all done immediately, yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, in in Indian Hindu psychology, it's so highly perfect. They They had long, long before you Jung and Freud and so on, long before. They dissected the mind.
(23:40) So, that part of the mind which is analyzing is known as a buddhi. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> And then, where does the ahankara or the ego come? The ahankara or ego comes as saying, "This is good for me. >> Mhm. >> This I want. I, this I which I'm talking about, I want this, I want that. This is not good for me, this is that.
(24:01) So, again, out of all the experiences of the the mind collects all the experience, intellect judges what is that and what is that. Ego decides what is what I want. >> Oh, I see. >> And the chitta is that we have also something called the uh it's a kind of a collection of all our the the many things which you pass through in many lives.
(24:24) So, that's why when you know, that comes into surface, except the especially when you're in deep sleep. Sometimes you find that you're thinking something, well, how do I solve this? You go to sleep. Next morning, hey presto, >> [laughter] >> it's there, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> So, that comes out of the chitta because collection of memories and so on, so many things that you have thought.
(24:49) That's a collection house of all memories of all lives you've passed. >> Mhm. >> So, that all this is concerned. Actually, when you talk of mind, actually the is a is a collection of all these. Manas, buddhi, ahankara, chitta, all four come into that. >> Mhm. >> English is only one word for that. So, that ego is the one which decide whether it's I want it.
(25:20) >> [laughter] >> I want it. Intellect will decide, is it good for me or not? >> Yeah. >> Ah. That is a good intellect will decide, is it good for me or not? Ego says, I don't care. I want it. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Intellect says, look, this food is not good for you. Ego says, I don't care. I must have it. >> Oh, I see. I understood now.
(25:42) >> I want it. Actually, our ego is also the black refraction of the cosmic ego. The Sanskrit word for cosmic ego is Hiranyagarbha. Which actually decides so many things in the cosmos. >> Oh, in terms of the group the group ego. >> We have a You know, it's it's quite complicated, but the thing is the Hindu mind, those rishis, they dissected everything.
(26:15) They They were so amazing, they were. Every single life, you know. And time, for instance, they knew time does not exist except in the mind. Yet, we have a word for the microscopic bit of time as well as a huge enormous segment of time which very recently only Western come to agree that time is a mental concept only very recently.
(26:41) >> Mhm. Is it correct to to say because when we analyze so we the first one is we we understand what's happening with our senses then we analyze and then >> spontaneous. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think that that that that our is it correct to say that our freedom comes from the moment between when we analyze and the ego.
(27:12) Before the ego takes the decision I or >> idea. >> [laughter] >> But how do we go out of that uh >> Second by surrender to the higher force. >> Mhm. >> Through a force which actually that force is there in every every creature because of which we are alive now. >> Yeah. >> Suppose that force leaves us that's that principle which of infinity in us is called the Atman or the life force Jivatma.
(27:43) When that Jivatma leaves this thing your eyes may be perfectly good if you take it and you can transplant it hearing same thing anything heart even transplant. But when you are not you anymore where where is that eye you're talking [laughter] about? So that is a cosmic eye. >> Yeah. >> It's only reflects but because of your very uh you know conditioned as well as uh wrong method of way we have been brought up to think.
(28:11) >> Oh, okay. >> We think it's me this me 5 ft 5 or whatever brown eye brown hair you know this thing so on. I but actually that is a cosmic uh current in you which is doing everything. When that current is switched off no light. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And who wants it money anymore? As fast as possible you should get rid of it.
(28:41) >> Mhm. >> There's no no use to anyone anymore. Such thing which you price so much for so many years in your life. One second. That's it. >> True. >> Lights off. >> [laughter] >> Like we don't we never think of that. We don't want to think of that. We are frightened of death. In fact, the word death makes everybody feel so frightened.
(29:05) So, that in all languages they will never say he died. You will say he passed away. >> [laughter] >> Why not say he died? >> Why is that? >> Because of fear of death. >> Oh. >> Inherent fear of death. You don't want to even say the word because it's very inauspicious. >> [laughter] >> So, what is the best way to to to to to handle >> Accept the fact that life and death go together.
(29:30) They're on the other side of the coin. >> Mhm. >> The coin of life. On my one side is life, one side is death. Before you come here you already taken a passport return return [laughter] ticket. Everybody. Whether elephant or quite live for some years and years or human being or whatever. We all have a return ticket. Yeah. >> And what you say is just just accepting that as part of life.
(29:59) >> Yeah, they don't accept >> We are we are born with that and we we we we're going to go. >> We don't accept that. >> And we have fear about that. >> Yeah, because we don't know what's coming next. >> Oh. >> Uh because maybe you feel especially very great soul or saint or something he has no fear.
(30:18) Yeah, I have quite happy to do. Uh >> [clears throat] >> He got he knows what is going to come to him. Whereas every every if you're a Christian or something if you have a very good life you think I'm going to heaven and I'll be fine. A bad shock when you know that you don't >> [laughter] [laughter] >> So. You know what to do.
(30:43) We fool ourselves in so many ways. >> Mhm. And and Mataji, you you mentioned that it a lot of this comes from the way we are raised. >> Of course. Of course. >> We are conditioned. There's a lot of layers of >> conditioning. >> of conditioning. What is the way for us to to remove these layers? >> Decondition. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You're doing [clears throat] that now.
(31:11) So something something in your karma which has allowed you to to come back to some and find out thing find out what is real, what is unreal. >> I didn't get it. >> See, you you are you have been reconditioned. We are conditioned many way. But fear of the devil >> Yeah. >> fear of hell. This is how the church works.
(31:36) >> Oh, yeah. >> You don't put fear the fear of fear of God. I mean, this terrible to say the fear of >> [laughter] >> One of the most I can say fear of devil maybe, but fear of God? He puts the fear of God in you that you will go to to hell you shall go. Immediately they do something. I mean, you keep a person on the track only if you do fear.
(31:59) >> Yeah. >> You should keep them to on the track due to love. >> Yeah, wow. >> That's what I tell you. >> That's so so beautiful what you just said. >> So that is the truth of life. >> And to what you say that the way we were conditioned, what we need to do is to recondition again. >> First decondition. First decondition.
(32:25) >> How do we do that? >> That's what you're doing now. You're doing that and you already started not only you already finished deconditioning almost I would say and you are reconditioning yourself. So it's a lot of people Now a lot of people do that. They have too many Westerners come and they really like they who scoffed all Hinduism, terrible.
(32:44) Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Then, how is it we have lasted the most long-lasting [laughter] civilization in the world? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Macedonians all came and then read Romans, everything came and went. All very great uh civilization. >> Mhm. >> But, they didn't last. Why is it we have lasted though we have never conquered anyone? >> I mean, we never Yeah.
(33:08) >> It's nothing we did. >> Yeah. >> Only conquer was the truth. The truth has been exposed only in this region. They have spoken. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That's why it has lasted. But, the way we are going, I don't know. >> So, basically we we have like conditionings about a lot of beliefs >> Mhm. >> that that drive the way we act and what we say.
(33:37) >> Mhm. >> We need to undo that. >> First of all, you have to uh somebody somewhere has to give you some idea. That's where the guru comes in. See, the guru is there. Anyone who gives you a positive idea that you are not just a body, mind, and intellect. You are that supreme self. >> Yeah. >> You have that divine divinity in you.
(34:01) We say the divine is That's the difference with the idea of God in Hinduism and other religions. >> Mhm. >> God is not someone who's sitting up there in heaven and giving out punishments. And what sort of God is punishing one's children? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> It's all done by this automatic uh law. >> Exactly. >> law of dharma, automatic.
(34:23) If you go against the dharma, you'll be punished. If you go with that, you'll be rewarded. Automatically it's done. God God We don't See, we are not punished um for our karma, for our action, by some God sitting there. >> Yeah. >> We are punished by our karma. When you say I'm being punished for my karma. >> Yeah.
(34:48) >> That means there's an external thing there. >> Mhm. >> But here's an automatic law. So that you are you are punished by your karma. >> Mhm. >> The karma itself will punish you because immediately it clashes with the your dharma. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's a karma itself which is punishing you. Not some other god sitting above and saying, "Thou shall be damned and go to hell and so on.
(35:17) " >> [laughter] >> It's not that. >> Mhm. Wow. >> an incentive for the human being that everything is within himself. He can change if he wants. He has the power. >> Oh, now there's a a lot that is coming because I was raised exactly the way you were saying there's God is there and he's watching you and if you do it will punish you.
(35:48) If you do bad things, if you do good things. And when you said that God is love. Right? And it's all about follow the the the the laws of of dharma. >> The cosmic law. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Nobody can go against it. >> Yeah. I love that. >> It's a simple thing, very simple. >> Yeah. So meaning that a very important thing that it's important for us is always to analyze our thoughts and also our beliefs about what we >> See analysis means again, it should be an automatic thing.
(36:26) >> But if I'm being conditioned >> Ah, conditioned. So you have to exactly exactly. >> Yeah. >> So you have to decondition yourself. >> Yeah. >> deconditioning is very simple. Because you just say that, "Look, I am responsible for my actions." >> Yeah. >> If I act properly according to the laws of karma, >> Yeah.
(36:47) >> I will automatically evolve. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> I don't have to depend on God. >> Yeah. >> The whole thing is done in because God is in me. >> Yeah. >> I don't have to really go and I know think of someone up there and He's He's imminent. >> Yeah. >> He's I mean there's no place in the whole Ishavasya midam sarvam yat kinchida kinchana that's what the rishi said.
(37:19) Ishavasya Where is God? You ask the rishi the the rishi will answer. He's everywhere. Whatever you can think of in this universe, he's already there. >> Yeah. >> There's nothing beyond that. >> Yeah. >> So, that ability to see that everything is divine, everything is divine. The divinity is in me also. There is something in me.
(37:42) The divinity lives in us that divinity is in my mind. But again being human beings we can say oh why did you do this? Why have I Then immediately the answer we give is that your own karma. If not in this life, another life. >> Okay, yeah. >> You have to pay it back. You have to pay it back. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh you'll be given a rent-free house to live in.
(38:03) >> [laughter] >> But you have to pay back your karma. >> Mhm. >> It's all automatic. You can make it more personal by what? Surrender to that force. Guide me. Tell me what to do. What should I do? Minimum planning, minimum. And things will so fold as you >> Because the more we try to control, the more we get stuck and the more we don't expand, right? And the more Mhm.
(38:37) >> Because that that you see it's a universal force which is omniscient and omnipotent, both. What does it mean? It's all powerful? >> Yeah. >> And all knowing. >> Mhm. >> You know nothing. And I said, am I fall dead just now? >> Yeah. >> I was giving a talk actually on that day. Giving a talk. Halfway through pain was so intense.
(39:03) >> Yeah. >> I just stopped. And rushed to hospital. I never I mean never can I could have dreamt about it. Infinite. >> Yeah. >> Infinite potential you have. >> And and the way we can >> Maintain yourself. >> Yeah. So it's okay to do some planning. >> You have to because >> Because we have to. >> Because of the modern world you do book tickets and stuff like minimum thing.
(39:23) >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But last minute it can get cancelled. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Ah, you're not under control. It's not under your control. >> Mhm. >> You have to accept that fact. >> Yeah. Mhm. Mataji, now it's um where I'm I am now my mind is going uh thinking about so how can you give me some uh examples of about what are some laws of Dharma that I can follow in my life that I know it's in line with the the >> There's only one law of Dharma.
(40:02) >> Tell me. >> Cosmic Dharma. I told you that. >> Yeah. >> Every creature, everything has a right to live its own life. >> Okay. >> Including you. >> Yes. >> So if your your life is dependent on the hurting another person's life >> Yeah. >> That's against the law. >> That's against the law. Yeah. >> Very simple law.
(40:26) >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Give give me some examples of of how can we in our busy lives or like in the city where so much happening how can we manage >> Somebody is horning the car behind you. Don't do. Don't do. Don't do. Obviously you want somewhere. Okay. I'll give him a little light. Little give Allow him to go. Pass, pass, pass.
(40:51) >> Mhm. >> He said, "Oh, that's it. Get out." I will not let you go. >> Yeah. >> That's the attitude. What's a cat doing over there? >> [laughter] >> It's my right away. >> Yeah. >> It's actually very simple. It's not very complete. Everybody knows it also. No thief, no murderer can say I didn't know it was wrong to steal.
(41:15) >> Yeah. >> I didn't know it was wrong to murder. Nobody can say that. >> Mhm. >> They know anyway. >> Mhm. >> That That conscience is there, no? >> Mhm. So, basically one of the the the most the only law of Dharma, it's mostly about you leave and you let live. >> Ah. >> That's That's what you That's what you say.
(41:39) And if you leave like >> love, you know? Like you You know, you have some feelings of love. That dog wants to come in. So, why not let it come in and sit there? >> Yeah. I see. Yeah. >> I can push it out. I can because I've the higher authority here, but but if it doesn't upset, why not let it do also what it wants? >> I see. Yeah.
(42:00) >> It was here especially here I find they treat animals very badly, especially dogs and cats and so. It's very sad. That's not how we were meant to >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Tell me you've been in interviewing so many wonderful gurus, you said. Haven't I I mean And you still don't know any of these basic >> [laughter] >> and the things of Hinduism? How is it possible? >> No, I'm getting many, many pieces.
(42:26) Uh but what I love is that you are getting me you're making me understand in a very simple way that I'm really enjoying. >> So, what do they tell you? What do they What do you question them about? >> No, I mean I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the mind. I learned a lot about identity, about fear, about So, now I think you are in a >> This is basic.
(42:51) >> Yeah. >> Identity, period, all these things disappear when you know the basics of Hindu the basic Hinduism this is. >> Yeah. >> Which the Hindus themselves and who actually don't follow. I'm sorry to say. >> Okay. [clears throat] >> But uh because we are caught up in so much of external ritualism that we forget what is the basic. Our basic is this.
(43:16) >> Mhm. And something that you mentioned very very um something that um what I love is that we have the power in every every moment to take the decision. Every decision can be according to the laws of Dharma or not. And it's and it's and also it's something that it builds. Once we get used to it, it's like a habit.
(43:40) >> Yes. >> We can create a habit of harming or we can create the harming of love, of caring, of But what you think is that if we have that in every interaction we have that's how we build >> a a dharmic life. >> dharmic life >> automatically goes to moksha. >> Okay. Yeah. >> automatic >> Yeah. >> have to work for moksha.
(44:02) >> Yeah. Yeah. Then something that it would could be interesting to to explore is this um is this part of connecting with others, building relationships. >> See, the moment you say other >> Mhm. >> you create a border. Immediately look at me. I'm not seeing Rodrigo. Is it? Am I spe- am I pronouncing it rightly? >> Very well.
(44:30) >> Okay. Well, I'm seeing the divine in you. So, where's the division? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> division. >> Yeah. >> It's only when I see Rodrigo and not see divine that the division comes. Then I then you're a Portuguese, you're a man, you're a wearing the proper All these differences come up. If I see the divine, you and I same.
(44:52) No difference. You difference. >> Yeah. >> We are trained to see the differences. >> That's exactly that. Yeah. >> And not to see that that infinite in everything. Everything, not every human being. Everything. The ant. The ant taking one little thing and going and then he call all his neighbors and they all come and then so beautifully they >> [laughter] >> Yeah.
(45:21) >> An ant like you just watch them. Whole lot of stuff you can learn from them. >> Yeah. >> They're amazing. They'll immediately call their friends and their relations. We will immediately keep it away. >> Yeah. >> Something good we'll keep it away quickly. You never think of sharing. >> If even in our relationships, let's say even with our partners, even when when there's love, we give love but >> There is some expectation.
(45:52) >> Exactly. So, when we are in in our relationships, how do we >> See that see that divinity in that person. >> Yes. >> But there will be differences, but differences are a joy actually because we are we are the only ones who can enjoy both the sides of the coin of life, right? Good and bad. >> Yes. >> So sometimes she's very cantankerous and you know cantankerous and okay, never mind. She's that mood today.
(46:19) >> [laughter] >> Let it be. That's also a joy. It's a play of that divine. Because the differences are what makes life interesting. That's why we are living in a dualistic world. Very boring if everybody is very good good good good good all the time. >> [laughter] >> That's why we have pickle in our in our in our food.
(46:42) The pickle will smell >> [laughter] >> Yes. >> So everything is very sweet and nice, you know, very good pickle. Thank [laughter] you all. Thank you all. >> Mhm. >> But be sure to understand that basically it's all the same. It's only the top. The cake is the same only that they put all sorts of you know icing over it.
(47:07) >> Yeah. And that what you say that you say where is the what we we criticize someone when someone doesn't behave the way we we expect it's because of our conditioning, right? >> Yes, yes. >> Because okay, no. I'm expecting the person to behave as like this. The person doesn't behave like that. I get frustrated. I get stressed.
(47:31) And what you say is that there's no good or bad. You just accept the the the person that >> There both good and bad. That is how the world works. >> There's >> They're both good and >> and bad is is based on our interpretation, right? >> Right? >> So what is good for one person? Yeah, you you may like masala chai.
(47:55) You say no, only herbal chai >> Okay. >> Masala chai good for me, herbal chai good for you. Okay, no problem. >> Mhm. >> So you are you are you are accepting that. >> Mhm. >> That little bit of sugar is so nice for the ant. >> Yeah. >> But I don't like to pick it up from the ground and have it or my it's not good for me. >> Yeah. >> But let it do what it likes.
(48:15) >> Yeah. >> Let and live and let live. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, acceptance. >> That's very That's very difficult. Yeah, that's what I think makes it very difficult because it's hard for us to accept um that we we we see I I think we see a lot I all this is me. >> no? Conditioning. >> Yeah. >> Most of it is good.
(48:41) That's why education is very important. Education though in in British conquered us through education. They changed our whole education system. McCauley came and put his own educate the education which is which is was to make us racist the slaves. So that's how the pattern got disrupted. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Education very important.
(49:08) I keep on telling all of this. From From the time you were small, that conditioning was always there. So many things. So, that basic education which we used to give our children at one time, now not anymore. If that is given, that's why we had a race of amazing people. All the the the the the what what do you the discoveries made in India thousands and thousands of years ago, which only now only now in the 20th 19th and 20th centuries with the advent of quantum physics have has the West discovered.
(49:44) How would they discover? They lived in thousands of years ago because they did not depend on this stupid little 5-ft >> Yeah. >> uh foot you know, body of theirs and their intellect there. They depended immediate listening to that divinity which had everything, which is omniscient >> Yeah. >> and works beyond space and time.
(50:07) >> Mhm. >> They had immediate [clears throat] access to that rishis. That's why they're called rishis. >> Yeah. >> They had immediate access. So, that knowledge is came from the divine. So, it never changed. It's just because and we were we were blamed for all our superstitious rubbish which we had. But, now slowly even the Western discovering that.
(50:31) >> Yeah. >> What we have said is that Maya brings the word Maya. All the rubbish. What is this Maya Maya? Today, what is quantum physics saying? What is What is it saying? >> Yeah. >> Then, this thing there is nothing called physical thing. There's nothing called This is hard hard uh thing you think.
(50:50) They said, "No, no, no. It's a play of energy." >> Mhm. >> Matter is only E = mc². Matter is only energy in motion. >> Mhm. >> What does it mean? What the Rishi says all Maya. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You are you're imagining a world which does not really exist. >> [laughter] >> All right. >> Isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. >> They said that long ago.
(51:21) In fact, every discovery which you're making now has already been said in long ago by the Rishi because they had direct access to the source of wisdom. Direct access. >> Ma- Mataji, you talk a lot about education. Um um how do I know today what is a good education? What am I getting a good education or or not? >> Every country has its own differences, you know? They all have different types of education.
(51:54) I don't know. You see, education nowadays is only which gives you fact facts and figures. Yeah, my my my grandchild in in London learns to speak uh Portuguese or Spanish. >> Mhm. >> How is it going to help her to become a good person? They waste they waste their best time of their year of their lives learning rubbish which they don't they will never use again.
(52:22) So, that basic education of who you are, what I want to be, what's a human being, what are the qualifications, what is the law nature, what is the all these are not given. >> Mhm. >> So, that that was of essential in our ancient Gurukula system. Very important. The The children lived with the Guru and learned not only by his words but by his action, how he lived his life.
(52:47) Getting up early in the morning, worshipping, listening, writing. So, that way of life. That's why Hinduism is called a way of life, not just a religion not a religion. Every second of the day from the time you wake up to the time you mhm lie down, you you should be a Hindu. You wake up by before we put up put on the touch this thing and say forgive me, Mother Earth, for stamping on you.
(53:15) >> Ah, beautiful. >> first thing we do. >> So, that's the the education that you you think is missing. And that's the base of life. That's the the the the >> What is the nature of life? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What is that power force which you know some buses and buses and buses. What is it? >> Mhm. >> What is it How is it we found out about it? What is it behind that bulb which makes it shine? I can't see that.
(53:46) I can only see the bulb. I can't see the bulb. And if the force was not there, bulb wouldn't shine. >> Yeah. >> So, that these questions are not given to the children. They have to be very thought Think of themselves with it. So, stifle the original capacity of a daughter stifle by the education given given to you. That's what I feel.
(54:07) I feel very positive and they and my children blame all Why are you telling them that Let's I let learn Spanish if she wants. Let her learn Spanish. What do I care? What's the most beautiful best years of one's life. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And they should be learning of who are you? How do I live a good life? How do I get on with people? What is the meaning of this word? What is All this is a basic things to every human being that should be taught, you know? >> Yeah.
(54:36) >> If that is not taught, then I feel that anything any other education is useless. After knowing that, of course, you can, you know, go engineering or this or that. But then, you already have some basis of your own because you may be the best engineer of the world or the scientist of the world, but eventually you end up shooting yourself because you're so frustrated.
(54:59) >> Yeah. >> You have best brain in the world. But he shoots himself. Why? It's such frustration. >> Mhm. >> And nobody gives the answers. >> Yeah, I see. >> Very important that I keep on telling everybody. Nobody listens to me, of course. >> [laughter] >> It's okay. What to do? >> Mhm. I think to to to end our conversation, I would like to end on a topic which I mean related to what we are talking with a lot of times not even we are harsh with other people, but we are harsh with ourselves.
(55:43) >> Mhm. >> There's a lot of like uh lack of self-love. Um how do I how do I um practice more self uh love? >> Why are you having self-hate? Because you're doing the wrong things. You're thinking the wrong thoughts. That's what I mean. The basically that that information should be given to you, who are you? What is your goal in life? >> Mhm.
(56:10) >> People have no goals in life anymore. Money is the only goal. Everywhere. Everything else can go about money. I've seen children who would cheat their parents, old parents. They've given them all their money and all that. And then they don't even bother to look after them. They throw them into a um cheapest of all old age home.
(56:36) >> Money is everything. I mean, it's amazing world we live in. Only money counts. Nothing else. And everywhere, here in India also. Same thing. It's very sad to see that. It has so much power, but you can't see it now. >> Yeah. >> Before at least I had gold coins, silver coins. Or even paper notes even. Now nothing.
(57:02) >> Exactly. >> It is some I I can't believe it. It was a somewhat a app some app. I can't see but very powerful. >> [laughter] >> All powerful. >> You you mentioned that it's important for us to have goals. >> Goals are only material. >> Yeah. What are some What are some um beautiful and empowering goals >> This is what we are in in Hinduism we are given four goals from beginning.
(57:34) Dharma, artha, kama, moksha. Artha and kama belong only to this world, but it has to be dharmic. >> Dharmic, yeah. >> Dharmic way you make money, no problem. >> Oh, I see. >> Dharmic way you have pleasure, no problem. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Ah, then automatically leads to moksha. >> I think we we we have I understand.
(57:58) So, it doesn't matter what whatever it is your goal, [clears throat] but it needs to be aligned with your dharma. Right? That's That's what you say. You can >> The goal is You know, your goal is have maybe what I don't know. Maybe a Hindu's goal is have salvation, but anybody's goal is have pleasure. Okay, have pleasure. Never mind.
(58:21) But, be dharmic about it. >> Yes. >> Don't grab the other person's thing to make your your goal come correct. >> Yeah. >> If it's dharmic, then artha and kama both can be done. Because that's a human nature. We have that nature. We want acquisition. We want love. We want pleasure. That's a human nature. So, that's okay.
(58:43) It's accepted provided it's dharmic. Anybody who don't believe in moksha, it will automatically lead you to moksha. >> Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Mataji, I think today you I I I've been coming to India and there's something that attracts me in India. There's a a wisdom and a spirituality that attracts me.
(59:10) And today you made me feel very connected to that wisdom and make me understand that's why I come to India is to understand the beautiful wisdom that India has to to offer and I think the West has a lot to learn from. So, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Om Shanti
(1:00:14) Shanti Shanti Hari Om
