Psychology Of Billionaires, Extreme Ambition & Secrets Of Success | Joe Hudson | FO586 Raj Shamani
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Title: Psychology Of Billionaires, Extreme Ambition & Secrets Of Success | Joe Hudson | FO586 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
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Timestamps -
00:00 — Intro
03:30 — What Makes High Performers Different?
17:35 — How to Stop Rumination & Find Motivation Beyond “I Should”
23:55 — Guilt, People-Pleasing & Learning to Want What You Truly Want
34:07 — Shame, Arrogance & Self-Doubt: The Hidden Drivers of Ambition
45:30 — How to Change Your Inner Narrative & Build Healthy Ambition
1:03:01 — How to Discover Who You Really Are
1:08:27 — Overcoming Fear of Failure, Taking Action & Building Better Habits
1:16:53 — How Judgment Reveals the Parts of Yourself You Reject
1:21:51 — The Inner Critic, Childhood Wounds & Emotional Abandonment
1:33:30 — Reconnecting With Your Body: Emotions, Relationships & Marriage
1:44:48 — Emotional Literacy: Understanding Anger, Sadness, Guilt & Shame
1:53:03 — How to Feel Your Emotions Without Being Controlled by Them
2:00:59 — Rejection & the Cycle of Self-Criticism
2:08:32 — The Need to Prove Yourself: Djokovic, Ambition & Validation
2:20:45 — How to Become a Better Version of Yourself
2:24:40 — One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow
2:26:21 — The Personal Cost of Becoming Joe Hudson
2:30:50 — BTS
2:31:48 — Outro
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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About Figuring Out
Figuring Out Podcast is a Candid Conversations University where Raj Shamani brings raw conversations with the Top 1% in India
Transcript:
(00:00) Why do some highly intelligent people spend their entire lives performing below their potential? >> If you have a kid and you tell them that they're smart and then you give them a test that they can't figure out and then you tell them that they failed and then you say, "Well, you're going to do the same test next time.
(00:18) " They don't try as hard. But if you tell the same kid, "I really appreciate how hard you tried, the effort that you put in there." They'll actually try harder cuz one identifies with being smart and they don't want to disprove it. and one of them identifies with effort. So I think a lot of people who are really smart either were told that they were stupid and so they don't know they're really smart.
(00:39) So what can somebody do today if they've been told they were smart and they've stopped trying? >> A great one for this is whatever it is that you want to do. Sit down [music] and come up with 15 iterations of how you're going to do it. And that's a really great way to do it. [music] So let's take your gym one for instance, right? So you're like, I want to work out and feel good in the morning.
(00:55) I'm going to come up with 15 ways that I think I could work out and feel good in the morning. And then I wake up in the morning and I get to pick from this menu [music] of 15 great things. And then if you do that, you'll start noticing [music] that you work out more. It's more exciting. You feel better.
(01:11) You feel better about working out. But the job is you write the list before [music] and you make it clear that it's completing the list is if you don't complete the list, that's the failure. The [music] other thing to do, how do you enjoy the process as much as possible? Because if it's not inherently rewarding, we're [music] less likely to do it.
(01:27) >> What emotion do you think secretly is controlling people? >> The the deepest one is shame. That controls people. But any emotion you don't want to feel is your boss. End of discussion. [music] If you don't want to feel a thing, then it is going to drive you into addictive behavior. It's going to limit your decision-m power.
(01:45) A human that you know is scared of rejection. What do they do? >> They don't do anything at all. >> Right? [music] So then they reject themselves. Everything that we do to try to not feel an emotion invites that emotion to us. >> Joe Hudson, you coach billionaires, you coach CEOs, you coach [music] people working at the top companies like Apple, SpaceX, Google, Open AI.
(02:06) >> I want to understand how the top 1% people [music] think psychologically. That's what we'll figure out today. >> What is psychologically different about these people who are truly exceptional? So, >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations.
(02:34) And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well. When you're trying to do your best work, you need a laptop that allows you to focus without interrupting your flow. That's why I use the Asus Expert Book Ultra. It comes with up to an Intel Core Ultra X9 series 3 processor that delivers up to 50 watt TDB performance so that it can keep up with your thinking.
(03:05) It's also an AI PC with up to 180 total platform tops and built-in co-pilot plus AI giving you ultra powerful AI capability. And because it's CPU, high performance GPU, and NPU all work together, you get ultra fast performance no matter how heavy the work gets. The ASUS expert book series is available on Flipkart. Check the link in the description below.
(03:30) I was fascinated by your profile. Like you coach billionaires, you coach CEOs, you coach people working at the top companies like Apple, SpaceX, Google, Open AI. Yeah. >> Right. And >> you're literally working with people who are who are the most ambitious people in the world and shaping world in some sort of manner.
(03:52) >> Yeah. >> Right. and you're going to tell us what kind of problems they face and how do you help them unlock it. [laughter] So I want to understand how >> the same problems everybody else faces. >> We'll get there. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I want to understand how the top 1% people think psychologically. >> Yeah.
(04:09) >> So that's what we'll figure out today. Okay. >> Thank you so much for coming on figuring out Joe Hudson. >> Pleasure to be here. >> If let's Okay. You know what? Why don't you tell us if someone's watching you for the first time? >> Yeah. and they have no clue who you are >> and what do you do >> then how would you explain them who you are >> and why should they watch this podcast till the end what are they going to learn [clears throat] >> uh that is like one of the most difficult questions for what I do but I I would
(04:40) say there's like 10 ways to say what I do for a living one you could say I coach really successful people the other is you could say that I help people die well another way that you could say it is that I help people be in deep alignment with themselves. I think all of those things are are what I do. I do it not only with these like bigname coaches, but I also have programs where we have thousands of people go through it every year.
(05:10) So, I get to see all all the different things that block people from all different walks of life, which is awesome. And I think the thing that would make people want to watch is if you go on YouTube and you look at my coaching sessions. If you just see I think there's a hundred of them there and you just watch the transformation that's possible in 15 minutes.
(05:30) That would be a great reason to to watch. If you're like oh if you think you can do that then don't watch it. If you can watch that and go holy goodness this is something that I would like to understand how humans can transform this quickly then this would be a great thing to watch. Well, hopefully we we will see some transformations by the end of the podcast.
(05:52) [laughter] >> So, tell me, we we were talking about this before the intro starts, right? That you've spent years around extremely ambitious people. >> Yeah, I I'm also an extremely ambitious person. >> Brilliant. So then what is psychologically different about these people who are truly exceptional? There's no one thing that's psychologically different.
(06:15) There just isn't. There's some tendencies. There's a couple tendencies. So, I can go into some of the tendencies that that not only drive them but also hold them back. >> Okay. >> So, uh one of them is typically a very strong sense of self-reliance. And so self-reliance is the way I describe self-re reliance is that at a young age you learned that you weren't going to be taken care of the way that you wanted to be taken care of.
(06:42) So maybe you had an alcoholic father and you had to emotionally take care of them or maybe your parents criticized you a lot and so or had expectations and they weren't supportive. Whatever it was, there's a lot of ways it could happen, but typically there's a way in which they've learned that they have to take care of there's no one going to be there to take care of them in one of their needs.
(07:05) Sometimes it's just as simple as they're the oldest of 10 kids or whatever, right? So, and when they have that, a couple things occur. They have a hard time asking for help. Typically, they have a hard time being very clear and direct about what they want. Um, maybe if they're paying people, they have less of a hard time. They have a hard time describing that they're hurt.
(07:24) So, they may be will get angry or they'll control instead of actually just saying, "Hey, I'm hurt." They typically have an issue with authority. Meaning, on one level, they want to not have an authority above them. They want to [snorts] they want to like not have someone telling them what to do, but they also don't want to be in authority completely.
(07:47) They're not like a fully into I I can own my power. I can be the authority because their experience of authority was questionable. So, they don't want to replicate that kind of authority. So, they have that fight inside of them. >> So, they don't want to be authority. And I I didn't get that. >> Yeah.
(08:07) like they they don't want anyone above them. >> They don't want anybody above them for sure. >> But then at the same time they want someone above them or no? >> No. They don't want to be above others. So typically if you see they they'll do it, don't get me wrong, but like if you see a CEO who has this issue, they don't like fully step into their power.
(08:28) they're not really clear in their authority or it takes them a while to get to that place where they can say clearly. I'll give you an example of this. Often times a CEO who has this kind of thing, they'll think that they're responsible for the company >> rather than the company is responsible for them >> because they aren't fully in their own authority.
(08:53) >> Interesting. And do you feel this constant battle of being very powerful and feeling very lonely and negative at the same time? It's a constant feeling which almost every ambitious top 1% people around the world have. >> If they've been doing it for a while, they might have worked their ways out of it.
(09:14) It seems to be a stage that almost every one of them goes through. >> Almost every >> almost every one of them. Not all of them, but almost every one of them that I've met has gone through a stage of feeling like they're alone and lonely in it. >> Would you call Okay, I'm going to tell you an experience from my own >> point, right? And would you call this also a similar kind of tendency? Because so every time I walk in in a room okay and this is even today and I've [clears throat] I've felt this since last 10 12 years when probably I had very like I was probably nobody nothing
(09:48) just trying to make it and then today when I've got little success in my career at the same I have exact same feeling I don't feel different and the feeling is that every time I walk in in a room full of strangers at a networking And I feel the most superior person and the most inferior person at the same time.
(10:08) >> Yes, that was that was going to be the second tendency that I was going to talk about. Yeah. >> Who explain Okay, talk. what you said. >> Um there's like a I would say that there's at some stage in the journey often for many of these folks they both feel like there's a big chip on their shoulder that there's something to prove that there's some way that they feel like a shame that they're trying to resolve in their system is the way I would describe it.
(10:38) And at the same time they often think that they're better than everybody or a tremendous amount of people. So those two things happen and the reason that they happen is because the better than everybody which has its own service like there's some good there's some good things that result from it and some incredibly bad things but that's a protective mechanism right so they have this protective mechanism of thinking like oh I' I've got it more figured out I understand more than other people but underneath that is this constant
(11:10) >> this constant >> inferiority complex >> yeah I would a lot lot of them it's not even very conscious but there's a shame driving a lot of their behavior that like I will prove myself I will show them I will make something every I won't be able to be ignored or bullied or have someone have power over me again some version of that >> like I I won't let anyone control me ever >> and that is >> not even yourself probably >> yes >> meaning like you probably tell yourself [ __ ] to do and you don't do it >> yeah yeah I used to say that about
(11:43) myself. I used to say I'm I'm such a rebel that I can't even tell myself what to do. [laughter] I fully agree with that thought. >> Yeah. >> So that's the So this constant feeling of inferiority and superiority that I'm not enough versus I'm better than everyone, >> right? It's all >> it's like mixed something like at the same time.
(12:07) >> Yeah. But it's also the reason that it particularly works is because it's also designed not to it's to help you not that it's actually a help but it's a short-term help and it was definitely a help as a kid which is to not feel your emotions fully. So anytime we're judging other people and that means I'm putting myself above them or it means I'm putting myself below them or it means I'm even making myself equal to them.
(12:32) If I'm in a comparative mind framework with you, >> then what that means is that I am cutting off an emotional uh experience that I'm having. >> Like so anytime you judge anybody, you just have to ask like very practically you can just say if I couldn't judge this person right now, what would I have to feel? >> And you'll feel this thing.
(12:55) And and if you actually learn to fall in love with that feeling, the judgment stops. >> We'll get that in a minute. that you've written a post about it. I want to go deeper in that about the shame and judgment and that that's very interesting. So yeah, so first was self-reliance. Second tendency was inferior superior and then third tendency is what >> uh you know those are the two that I normally name.
(13:16) I don't really think about there if they're successful they're all really really smart. >> Like I don't know anybody who's in the ultra success category who's not really really smart. >> Yeah. Yeah. So let's say if you meet someone before they became successful. >> Yeah. >> What behaviors would make you go like hey I think this person is going to be really extraordinary at some point in his life.
(13:42) >> So I I think that there's a misnomer about like I don't a misrepresentation of that even that concept meaning if I'm let's just take three kinds of companies. I'm gonna run an asphalt company. I'm gonna run a AI company. And I'm gonna run a hotel. >> There are CEOs that would be wildly successful at one and horribly unsuccessful at another one of those things.
(14:14) >> Mhm. >> Right. So, high margin businesses are run differently than low margin businesses. Um, if you have if you really need to keep top talent, you're going to run it differently. And so there's definitely tendencies. So the idea of what makes you successful is I think I think is is we think that we can just get it because then it makes a nice list sickle so somebody can you know eat it up but it's not really an accurate thing.
(14:43) There are a couple things that people seem to have in common. They're obsessed with the thing that they're doing >> that they and and the obsession could be for different reasons. They're obsessed. And I don't mean obsessed in a bad way. I don't mean obsessed like I have uh like lost my family and friends because I'm so obsessed.
(15:02) I mean obsessed like their mind just tends to think about this thing. >> Yeah. >> And um so they're obs they're like constantly on this topic and they just constantly are thinking about and iterating on that on that thing. So somebody who who's obsessed is really good. People who are going to be successful quicker are people who iterate quickly as well.
(15:28) So if people think, "Oh, I failed. I failed." Then they do not do as well as people say, "Oh, what did I learn next thing? What do I learn next thing?" They might be like, "Oh, god damn it. I messed up." But they're still on to the next thing. They're still I'm going to try a different way. Those people are usually successful quicker.
(15:48) But that would be more for like media and technology. If you are a you know rice farmer, you probably don't need to iterate at that same pace to be successful. So, but generally that obsession I think is is something that's really really important. The intelligence is is something that seems to be really important and ambition seems to be really important.
(16:13) Um there's definitely people in that ultra successful entrepreneur class where they really don't suffer a lot of regret. They don't they might think, "Oh, I I shouldn't have done it." But they don't churn on that. Like they don't for like 6 months go, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have done that." Maybe they think it once or twice.
(16:36) Many of them just ignore it. They're like, "Oh, yeah. Well, okay, whatever." And off we go. Um, but that seems to be another thing for somebody who's >> like less regret. >> I mean, their brain doesn't ruminate on past issues. >> Their brain doesn't ruminate on the past >> at all. >> Very little. >> Very, very little. >> And is that the ability that you're born with or does that happen because of some kind of trauma? >> No.
(17:06) Um, it often gets enhanced just by busyness. Mhm. [laughter] >> When somebody's just so busy that they they can't do it, that it's definitely teachable. It's definitely something that you can learn. Um it seems to be directly related to how strong the negative selft talk in your head is. And so I find a lot of those folks they can either ignore that negative selft talk or they have a very particular brand of it.
(17:33) Um but the but that's that seems to be highly correlated with it. Do you think negative selft talk is one of the most common things between all the people who have >> Yeah, I think >> went like who went from zero to now probably >> I think it's the most common thing in humanity. I think it's probably just 98% of people >> but that motivates you.
(17:49) >> I think it motiv the the issue with that it's extremely dirty fuel. So like it can motivate you but if you have too much negative selft talk you're depressed. So like that's not going to work. And and the other thing is it's really ineffective. I'll give you an example. If you think about the three things that you tell yourself you should do the most, I can guarantee you you've been doing that for years and it hasn't changed.
(18:18) So you're telling yourself you shouldn't do something for years. It's not changing. And somehow I'm going to do the exact same thing again to make it change. It's a extremely ineffective way of of managing yourself. So what do you do then? Because this morning >> I was doing an exercise and I was actually telling myself two or three things that I should be changing and I want to do this in different way.
(18:43) >> Yeah. >> And right now you just said it and it's true. Since 10 years I've not changed it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> And I just keep telling myself every 6 months that hey I'm going to change it probably sometime every month. >> Yeah. So what's the want? >> You're in the should. M >> so I don't know if you want to be outright and say this is the thing I'm telling myself I should do but if if not then just what's the want there's a want beneath that should somewhere like what's the want >> so let's say I'll give you one example
(19:13) the example was let's say I need >> I should be working out every day before my podcast or before my day starts >> because >> if I do it after the my day ends >> then I'm highly inconsistent I'll probably do just twice a week or thrice a week I won't be able to do it every day Right. >> So, I want to start it.
(19:30) And I've been telling myself this since 10 years. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Before my day starts, I should be working out. >> Yeah. So, what's the want behind the I should do this >> just better for myself? Like health. >> Yeah. What's the want behind the health? What what makes you want to be healthy? >> Feeling better, looking better.
(19:50) Oh, >> so I want to feel better. >> Yeah. So, you get in touch with wanting to feel better, not telling yourself you should work out. H So if you woke up every morning and you were like, I have 30 minutes to feel better and my whole job is to do whatever I want to do that will make me feel better today and I'm going to experiment.
(20:14) I'm going to try this today and this tomorrow and this the next day. That would be extremely motivating and a great way to change your routine. But if you on the other hand, the way you'll do it is you'll say, "I should work out." And then almost guaranteed, >> putting myself out on a limb here, but I'm I'm very confident.
(20:36) Uh, [laughter] and then you work out and at least twice in the workout. And probably at the end of the workout, you didn't work out quite enough. You didn't go hard enough. At some point, you didn't. So, so now I'm beating myself up to go work out, which doesn't make me want to work out. And then I work out and I beat myself up while I'm working out.
(20:53) Like who wants to sign up for getting beat up like three times in an hour, maybe 20 times in an hour. And then and then you're finished and you feel good for a while, but after a very short period of time, you tell yourself, I should have done I should be doing that every day, which is beating yourself up again. So, >> and I should have gone harder.
(21:11) I didn't go hard enough. >> Exactly. So, it's like taking a horse and you want to teach it how to jump and every time it jumps, you just hit it. [gasps] Like, but why would that work? That doesn't make any sense. >> But why do we do that? >> Uh because our parents did it to us. >> Explain. Go deeper in that. Because >> because what you said, you just you're showing me a mirror at this [laughter] point >> and I have no shame in actually, you know, admitting this because this is bang on.
(21:38) >> I do that every morning. I get up and I was like, I should be working out >> the first thing >> and then when I work out, I'm feeling bad. And after working out, I was like, I know that I had like these 10 extra push-ups in me or like five extra pull-ups in me. I still didn't do it. I'll be doing that from tomorrow and tomorrow I don't even work out.
(21:56) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As as opposed to I'm going to work out every morning cuz I want to. And what's the way I can enjoy the [ __ ] out of working out the most? [clears throat] If every day your whole job was to wake up and go, how would I enjoy working out today? Maybe it's pickle ball. Maybe it's weights. Maybe it whatever.
(22:16) I'm going to my whole job is to make working out just a little bit more enjoyable every day. Like if that's your perspective, then you'll find a 100 iterations on how to make working out more enjoyable. >> So you feel this this logically is making sense, right? >> That the moment I wake up and if I optimize for >> I have 30 minutes to feel better, I'll do whatever just makes me feel better.
(22:43) I'll probably end up doing way many like I'll be more creative with the things that I want to do. >> Yeah. Right. >> Do you think that works and stays on for this change stays better >> if you don't make it a should? >> Yeah. Most people will make it a should. >> You know, they'll turn that that'll work for a couple weeks and then they'll be like, I should do something to make myself feel better and then it'll stop working as well.
(23:06) >> What's the difference want and should? One is telling yourself you're bad and you should be punished and one is telling is trusting your inherent nature. Like I have no doubt if I if I put you in a room and I said you can't work out, you would be pissed and when I said finally you can work out, you're like thank God.
(23:32) And you would go work out. Like I have no doubt that that's something that is in you natively. As a matter of fact, I would argue every time you think I should work out, at that moment you actually have a want to work out at that moment. Exactly. You had a desire to work out come up and you turned it into a should.
(23:54) >> And you said this is because our parents did it to us. What was that? >> Parents did it to us is not quite the right way to say it because then we're blaming our parents and like >> But you said it like you said something similar. Yeah, exactly. So, it's it's basically it's how our parents taught us that we were going to be motivated.
(24:15) So, our parents often said you should do this, you should do that. Like, if you want me to love you, you have to do X, Y, and Z. Why could why the guilt you're disappointing me if you don't do X, Y, and Z, right? Most and so we mimic that or we or another one, this is a great one.
(24:37) So, this one's like the most and I'm going to probably read your mind again a little bit. Um, when parents when we're not doing what our parents want us to do, typically they call us selfish. >> Yeah. >> So, if you think about all the times you were called selfish as a kid, how many of those were because you just weren't doing what your parents wanted you to do in that moment? >> It happens even to the day.
(25:02) >> Yes. Right. Right. So now we call ourselves selfish. >> Yeah. >> But we were never selfish. We were kids trying to get our needs met, >> but we were labeled as selfish because that's what we were told. And then we have this guilt. And now we're like walking through our lives feeling like we're selfish >> instead of trusting our wants.
(25:26) Like here's another thing. Just like I know that you want to work out, I know you want to care for your parents. I know you want your parents to love you. >> I know you want to love your parents. >> Yes. >> I know that you would sacrifice a tremendous amount to keep your parents happy, healthy, and safe. >> Absolutely >> right.
(25:46) And nobody has to call you selfish for that to occur. As a matter of fact, if nobody called you selfish, it would happen more. Cuz who the [ __ ] wants to be around people who's calling you selfish all the time? Nobody does. But there's this always this guilt if I do something that I want. >> Yes. >> There's always this guilt inside that >> maybe I'm doing this for selfish reasons and I'm selfish for doing this.
(26:12) >> Like great. >> Why great? >> Well, so if you started this podcast for selfish reasons and you're helping 18 million people, fantastic. >> Yeah. >> I love it. Great. So, there's this the weird thing is is there there's this um I would call it a ridiculous notion, but it takes a while to see how ridiculous it is >> that if you do what's absolutely best for you, it's not what's best for everybody.
(26:45) >> And this is so this is so good. I love this ridiculous thing that you said. Okay. >> Majority of the times when we think that if I'm doing something for selfish reasons, I'm actually doing it bad for the like I'm doing bad to others. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And why do we feel so? Because this majority of the people I know they feel like this.
(27:06) >> So the so the thing that's happening is it's not that you're acting selfishly that creates that. It's that you're scared that you are going to be punished for acting selfishly or you're scared that you're acting selfishly. So when our mind enters fear, we go into binary thinking.
(27:26) We go black, right? Yes, no, good, bad. That's what our brain does. So if you're wondering when you're scared and you don't have a you're not in touch with your emotional system, then you'll know it because your brain your brain does a couple things. But one of the things your brain does on fear is it starts doing binary thinking, black and white thinking.
(27:47) So the fear that arises that oh I'm I'm hurting other people. It comes from a binary thinking of selfishness is bad for others. >> Interesting. And this subconsciously I've been trained to do that >> by being called selfish a 100 times a million times. And it can be either in school or by my parents or environment around me or anything at all.
(28:10) >> That's right. Yeah. And then once it's trained in you, then you're then you're like really susceptible to it. So like if I want to manipulate you, I'm just going to call you selfish. I'm going to do it. >> That is so true. >> Yeah. I mean, you'll most likely date somebody like that, get married to somebody like that, unless you actually do the work to change it [snorts] because it's what it's what you wired with love. Love came with guilt.
(28:40) >> Yeah. >> So, you will find a marriage that has love with guilt. Damn, I saw that face. [laughter] Yeah. Which is painful for them. to guilt trip somebody sucks. Try it. Like, try it out. Guilt trip me. Try to guilt trip me and enjoy yourself. Just try. I'm just at this point I can't think anything at all because you've hit a nerve which is I'm thinking about so many things in my life and I've been this way and it's ridiculous.
(29:15) >> Yeah, it's ridiculous. Tell me, tell me the most selfish thing you've ever done and you that you can talk about on air that you at the time you thought you were so deeply selfish for doing it. >> Just left my left my city and my family in my home. >> Mhm. >> To start my podcast in a new new city. >> Okay. >> And in India, it's very uncommon to leave your family home.
(29:44) >> Yeah. >> To start alone and live in another city. So everybody looks at you as you're selfish trying to build a career alone where and leaving your parents and family behind like you don't move out of your parents' house. It's very >> uncommon to do that in India, >> right? So you look selfish. >> How many people how many parents in India sacrificed everything to send their kids off to America 20 years ago to get an education? >> They do that even today.
(30:13) >> Yeah. So, were were the kids selfish for listening to their parents to go and get an education to take care of their parents? So, you're doing the same thing >> to build a better life. I did the same thing. Yeah. >> Same thing. That's what they they wanted their kids to build. They sent them off to do it.
(30:30) What's the difference? How is that how is that? >> But there's this selfish guilt even today. >> Yeah. I understand there's the guilt, but I'm still asking you logically, how is this different than parents sending their kids to a college? >> It's not. Yeah. [snorts] Right. >> I I [laughter] >> Interesting. This is This is >> It's [clears throat] just habitual habitualized right now in you.
(31:00) I don't think you could do anything that feels good in your system and not on some level think you're being selfish. >> Yeah. and not be guilty afterwards because I always feel like >> because I'm doing this, >> I'm leaving something else or not focusing on some other part of my life or someone else in my life and then I'm I'm guilty that I'm not able to actually serve them.
(31:22) >> Which means you're always in a position of guilt cuz you can never actively be taking care of everybody all the time, >> right? >> Wow. This is I didn't think that the podcast is going to go this way. [laughter] you know, we'll [snorts] get there. Like, let let me let me internalize it a bit. I want to change gear a little bit.
(31:45) >> Okay, but hold on. Before you do that, I want to say something like which is I've seen that you know, you're up and coming in the podcast world. You're like you're like a rocket ship and I'm and I I'd seen like one or two episodes, but like I I see what actually makes that the case now.
(32:03) Like what's actually here is like your your your like your sincerity and your your your desire for the truth is more important than your So this is good. You're not letting this in. I'm giving you a compliment that's authentic and you're protecting yourself. >> How do you know that? >> I see it. >> How? I was just trying to be just I I was listening to you.
(32:28) >> I know. But I was right. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Yeah. [sighs] So, so like you're like deeply authentic and sweet and you care. Then that's what makes you successful and all the while you're telling yourself that you're selfish. >> Like imagine what happens to your podcast if you actually embrace the fact that you are sweet and you care and you care more about learning than you care about prestige.
(32:58) Like that's exceptional. That's rare, especially in the podcast world. But >> is it so? Isn't that everybody's learning? >> There's a difference between learning and making that learning more important than >> everything else. >> You're sitting here willing to admit to what you just admitted to in front of all these people for the sake of learning.
(33:24) >> That's rare. That's rare. >> Thank you. Yeah, [snorts] >> thanks for letting that in. That felt really good. [laughter] >> It was very hard for me to let that in. >> But I was like, if I don't do that, I'm going to be shown another mirror and another volume. [laughter] I'm like, I'm not you.
(33:44) You've already stuck a chord. And I love that. And I I'll ask you about how to change it. And >> I'm going to do that because >> at this time there are like two three open threads in my head. >> Just changed it. You just let yourself feel it. That's how you do it. >> And be okay with it. >> Yeah.
(34:04) And then soon it's just deeper and deeper. It just feels >> But I want to go to the guilt part. >> Okay. Yeah. We'll get there because that's like something but but two threads, okay, at this point. So one was about where we were talking about >> the arrogance and self-doubt. >> Yeah. >> And the other was the love and the guilt part. Okay.
(34:22) So we we'll go to both of them. I don't want to leave any honest and you have written a post around this >> post >> I think self-doubt imposter syndrome arrogance all of this come from a same insecurity or something like that >> yeah so in all of them there >> but how is arrogance and self-doubt the same pattern aren't they two different things >> um self-doubt it's the same way that anger and passive aggression are the same pattern.
(34:56) >> Right? So, let's say I have an emotion moving through me. It's called anger. And let's use that as like a tube. >> Okay? >> And that tube is anger. And I kink the tube this way and it looks like this nice pen. [clears throat] And if I if I crank that tube in a different way, I'm like, I'm not angry. And if I crank it in a different way, I'm like, you son of a buck.
(35:23) All of that is anger twisted in different ways. And if you have no anger, not no anger, if there's no twist and the anger is just moving, then you have this clarity and determination of a Gandhi. That's what anger looks like if it's not twisted. >> Like because a heart is still involved. It's still like an openhearted expression of that emotional state.
(35:45) >> Yeah. >> And so if I don't feel good about myself, maybe I protect it by being arrogant. They literally they have to cut off their emotional experience. They like you'll see arrogant people, they'll have a chin up and it's because they can't feel as much with a chin up and their jaws are often tight.
(36:02) All of that is to stop the emotional experience of what's happening or they're in self-doubt, which is indulging the same experience in a different way instead of just like being with the shame. Oh, I can just actually just be with the shame. And there's like and and when you do that, you find a truth to it that's amazing.
(36:24) Like one of the things that people come up with is I don't deserve this. You're [ __ ] absolutely right. Of course you don't. Nobody does. What are you talking about? Like we came out of the the birth canal not deserving life. Like yes, correct. Right. So c can we just experience this as lucky, blessed, fortunate? Can we just be grateful for it? Why why do we have to deserve it? No, since nobody does, right? And so so if you don't in take that shame and try to protect yourself from it or indulge it as I'm no good, that I'm bad, then
(37:07) you can actually just experience the reality of it and then it changes. that shame changes and shame itself is meant to kind of it's like the backwater of emotional experience. Shame is what stops people from feeling stuff. So you're telling me that the arrogant person and the self the person who has a self-doubt they both are feeling shame.
(37:36) One is just protecting it. >> Correct. And the other is the other is running away from it. Is that >> it's >> both are protecting but >> I would call maybe like indulging that would be the word I would use. >> One is protecting by just be like over compensating for it and trying to look pretend. >> Yes. >> And the other one is like beating themselves up.
(38:00) >> Right. So >> but both is shame. >> And why is this shame? Well, that's an that's an infinite question. [laughter] Let me let me let me let me go back to the just for a second that that there's a piece. So, when I was sitting there with you and I was giving you the compliment, I'm going right at the shame. Your capacity to actually feel that compliment and allow that compliment in is like right at the shame.
(38:28) Then we're actually in the shame. We're feeling it. We're in that moment with it. If we're saying, "Yes, I am bad. This is horrible. I did this wrong. Then there's really you're not actually feeling the shame. You're you're like indulging it, but you're not actually feeling it. And if you're arrogant, you're not feeling the shame.
(38:47) So, can you actually just like be deeply with the shame? And then that's what changes the pattern. >> But why do why do people have this shame? >> Oh, yeah. So, there's this great quote. I don't remember who said it, but the biggest gift we can give to our children is that teaching them they can be safe to be themselves, but that's not what happens.
(39:11) Kids cry and somebody says, "Boys don't cry. It's not that bad. Feed them a lot of sugar so they stop crying. Can't get angry. If you get angry, dad's going to be even more angry. You can't be scared because you'll get hurt if you're scared." So that we get told we can't be certain ways and and that's where the shame comes from.
(39:35) >> But then this this is a very normal human experience for almost every kid. >> Correct. >> Almost everybody must be going through certain kind of childhood trauma trigger or just an experience where they've been shamed or they've been told that it's good to be that way or not to not good to be that way. >> Probably have done it to themselves as well. Correct. Yeah.
(39:57) Like bunch of reason but all of us in some shape and form we must have gone through it at some point. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> So then when everybody's going through same experiences. >> Yes. >> Then why >> larger and greater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But then why some people have an abnormal need to win and some people are just comfortable being average? I've never met anybody comfortable with being average.
(40:27) I've met people who acquies to being average. I meet people who think who tell themselves or are tell themselves that, oh, I have a different priority, but I've never heard anybody really just be like, I'm really cool with being average without some level of shame in their system. I've just never >> Aren't there some people who are just like very >> Yeah. They're okay with where they are.
(40:52) They're not ambitious. They don't want to do something. They're like >> That's different than average. >> Yeah. I'm not talking about people who are like very happy and satisfied. I'm talking about people who just don't want to >> they're not satisfied yet they're not ambitious to do something with. They're just angry about themselves and their lives and they're angry about politics and people around them and just like >> that >> and they stay in this is in this middle of it >> and they don't want to come out of that
(41:17) >> that phase that they're stuck at. >> Correct. Okay. that that there's definitely they might want to. They might not think that there's a way to, but I will assume that there are some that don't want to. Yeah, most people are in that are like people don't change. There's no real way to transform like that.
(41:37) They have stories that hold them in place. And but I think underneath that is there and it's the same one here too which is like there's an identity that is that people are scared to let go of deeply scared to let go of and in your particular position it's a really interesting one because not only when you want to change your identity is there the thing that goes with everybody like who will I be and how will I act and who will I love and will I will people still be able to relate to me but there's also will my audience of whatever it is 18 million
(42:07) people stick with me. They they want they know me to be this kind of a person. If I transform, will they still want to be here with me? So, it's a really interesting thing. So, I think a lot of those folks, they have an identity that where they that they can't see through the identity. >> So, they're stuck in that.
(42:25) >> Yeah. >> But nobody you you feel nobody wants to be average. Nobody's comfortable. >> I don't think anybody really wants to even be stuck, >> but they are. >> Yeah. Cuz they if you notice those same people are constantly fantasizing about a different life. >> Yeah. And they're always looking for an escape. >> If I have Yeah. Exactly. That's right.
(42:46) >> For the weekend, for the party, for the >> for some sort of drug, alcohol, or some vacation. >> But your judgment of them is your same judgment for yourself in that experience. >> What do you mean by that? >> They like >> a I'm not judging. I'm just making and giving >> There wasn't a little bit of judgment.
(43:05) >> No, no. I'm just giving an example to make it uh >> I'm just thinking about two different people in my head. >> There is the one kind of people like one side. They are like they always want to escape and they feel like I want to be out there somewhere working somewhere. I don't like my husband or I don't like my wife.
(43:26) I should be with someone else at some other country in some other some other vacation and some with some other kind of alcohol and drug. Right. That's one side. >> Tik Tok or whatever. Yeah, whatever. Tik Tok or Instagram. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> Then there's other side. >> Yeah. >> Which is like highly super ambitious people.
(43:43) They're also escaping their current reality. And they're like once I become big, I'll get better. Once I become X million or billion dollars, I'll get better. Once I get this feeling that I've saved the world, I'll feel better. Whatever. >> Once I'm enlightened, I'll be better. Once I meditate enough, I'll be better. >> Yeah.
(44:00) Like [clears throat] both are like >> Yeah. >> different ways, but >> correct. One is wanting to be right where they are. >> Yes. >> And one wants to always be like be the number one, be the biggest. Like the the you talk to them and you feel like >> whether they're doing it or not. >> Yeah. >> But they they the words come out of their mouth is very ambitious.
(44:26) >> Yes. >> So what's the difference between people who are super ambitious versus people who are not? if everybody's going through the same kind of experiences. >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, you're basically saying what makes shame drive some people into stagnation and drive some people into movement.
(44:43) >> Yes. >> What is the difference between those two? I think there's definitely one, but it's not the entire story. One of them is the amount of shame. So if you're beating yourself up all the time, then you're generally moving into the depression area. So there's whether it's low-level distia and if you go into the DSM which is the psychological literature and maybe it's not the most recent one but the one before and I don't know what the current one is but um they define that as excessive negative selft talk.
(45:22) >> Yeah >> that's what they call it. So >> PDD so they that leads to PDD permanent uh depression disorder. Yeah, it's so I don't know the answer to that. I assume that that's the case, but there's definitely ways out of that. So, but oftent times that's what's happening is that that negative talk is just so high >> that it's [clears throat] creating it's creating stagnation.
(45:48) So, if the anger, the way I see it, that's on the intellectual side. On the emotional side, it means all of their anger is going towards themselves [snorts] instead of their anger going >> outside >> outside. So the way I think about transformation in humans is this framework is important if you if you for me to understand it.
(46:07) People try to transform on the on the intellectual level, on the emotional level and on the nervous system level. But you need all three to guarantee transformation. >> Wait, what do you say? Emotional level. >> Intellectual level and nervous system level. So intellectual level would be prefrontal cortex very human.
(46:26) Um the emotional level is emotions. It's mamlian. It's the way mammals make it's it's the way we make decisions. We can go into that. Um and then there's the nervous system level which is more reptilian. And if you are wanting transformation, you like finding a way to transform all three is what consistently changes behavior.
(46:49) And so most people know I should work out, but they're not working out. Means that intellectually they get it, but they haven't gotten it emotionally and they haven't gotten it in their nervous system yet. Or somebody can emotionally say, "Oh, I like I love being nice and kind, but that guy's an [ __ ] so I have to treat him mean.
(47:08) " They haven't seen through the thought yet. >> And so, so to have transformation, it needs you to guarantee it, it's all three levels. Sometimes you get lucky and there's only one level left and you undo it and you get the transformation. But if you want consistent change that's you have to address it on all those levels.
(47:27) And so when you have depression intellectually it's changing your self-t talk. Emotionally it's moving the anger outwards. Not I'm not saying getting angry at people but allowing yourself to express anger in a way that's safe. Not at people but not at yourself. And the nervous system level it's allowing yourself to actually feel pleasure.
(47:46) So that because pleasure tells a mammal that you're safe that you're safe if you're feeling like pleasure. And so you have to do all three of those things if you want to move out of low-level dysmimeia. And so so if you have too much of that then those people are usually far more stagnant. >> Interesting.
(48:10) And the ones who are like they're into movement and they're ambitious. >> Yeah. They haven't internalized the shame the same way. >> Yeah. So there's usually less of it. There's usually less of a shame. And then another factor that seems to be pretty significant is they were told they were lovable if they achieved >> nice. But can it >> you have to be of value to me for me to love you as your mom or dad or school or whatever.
(48:38) But your achievement is what makes you valuable. And so that's another thing that they had that >> right. And then I'm sure there's some inherent pieces to it as well. But >> so they have achieved something in their life which they love so much that their identity becomes that achievement is equals to my value >> and then they get addicted to that achievement and they keep they they want more and more and more and more.
(49:02) >> That's right. Yeah. You got straight A's so we going to we're going to love you for a couple >> days or you did >> something and we're going to like that's what makes you valuable. >> Yeah. happened with me. I've been there. Yeah. It's like >> till till I was 16. I was this average kid. Not I was this invisible kid in the family because all my cousins and my siblings, they all were like super intelligent.
(49:29) Uh always coming first or second in class and they're like topper straight A and I was this D E student. >> Yeah. And after school I did once I studied and I got like B and I became all of a sudden like everybody paid attention to me and they all appreciated me so much. >> Yeah. >> And since then this became an addiction that hey there was one point one hour in my life where I was not invisible.
(49:58) >> Right. Right. >> Everybody in my family saw me, everybody appreciated me. I became that star and that that B became better than straight A's of my >> right >> all my cousins. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. >> And then all I wanted to do was just win my >> get like my parents attention by achieving something.
(50:17) >> All you wanted was the love and attention of your parents. >> You found a strategy. >> Yeah. And then I started achieving and then >> that it started with parents then it went to the society then friends and then bigger and then bigger and it just became an addiction that if I achieve then people value me. Yes.
(50:34) >> And then I wanted to keep achieving. >> Yes. Right. >> And that was that unfortunately that's a hungry ghost because unless you actually like allow that appreciation in like you just did then it never is satisfied. H I'm still working on it. But there was there was a big point >> in my life when I was 24 where I I started shifting >> and started not attaching my self worth with achievement.
(51:03) But I'm still not there yet. >> Yeah. >> It it'll take some time. >> But yeah, so the if you if you actually want that usually people are scared if I give that up then I'll stop achieving which is nonsense but people typically think that. But if you really want it, like it's a very easy thing to transform quite quickly. And it's actually acknowledge and allow yourself to feel really good about the things that you've achieved.
(51:32) I am the quickest podcast. I'm the quickest growing podcast in the history of the world. And like let yourself feel it the same way you felt that compliment. >> It's very difficult. >> Yes. Right. And so that you that is you asked the question earlier. You said how could it be that arrogance and not like allowing yourself to feel good about things or telling yourself that you're bad about things are the same thing.
(52:02) If you deeply let that in, if you deeply let in your accomplishments and feel good about them and say, "Oh yeah, I've really done some amazing stuff and it feels good." both the arrogance shrinks and the I'm not good enough shrinks. >> Here's here's a question and this is a personal question. >> Yeah, >> I'm sure a lot of people have >> and don't and by the way don't trust me on that.
(52:31) Do it just do it like for a week one week experiment. See, here's a question on that. Why I I feel something about it, right? >> I believe the reason why I'm super ambitious >> Yeah. >> is because I have this this feeling of I'm not good enough. >> Yeah. >> If I start feeling normal >> and I don't feel inferior in the rooms that I walk in, >> Yeah.
(53:01) >> I will stop being hungry. Yeah. >> And probably my ambition will die. Like can I not be miserable and ambitious at the same time? I don't think so. [laughter] >> Then you can't. >> I'm just asking that's that's a >> you don't think so you can't. >> But have you gotten this question before that? Do you think that >> how am I doing it? >> You tell me how >> how did Gandhi do it? Gandhi was far more ambitious than you and far more at peace with himself.
(53:40) >> How can these >> far more satisfied? How could they not? What makes you think love is not ambitious? Love is one of the most ambitious things. Love is not satisfied with loving one thing. >> True. >> Yeah. It's like it's it's hardcore ambitious. >> Yeah. >> So you you're you're telling the moment you start shifting your focus from achievement to loving things shift like I do this because I want to achieve more or I do this because I love it more.
(54:21) >> I'm Is that the difference? >> That's a good question. I'm I'm I'm not I haven't thought about it that way. That's not the way that I think about it. I think there's this great, it's an old film. It's called Comedian. >> I love this film. >> And they, Unfortunately, it's got like Bill Cosby in it, but there's a comedian and it's uh Jerry Seinfeld and he's in the middle of his career.
(54:48) Cosby's in the end of his career and there's this young guy who's at the beginning of his career and they follow all three of them around and at some point the young guy is complaining. my friends are all more successful, blah blah blah blah. And Jerry looks at him and just like laughs and says, "If you can do anything besides be a stand-up comedian, you should absolutely do something else.
(55:12) " Like [laughter] you if you can't if you could stop, stop. And it that's more of the thing I'm saying like there's a trust in yourself that comes when you realize that your your nature is ambitious. >> And it doesn't need this fuel of I'm not good enough. >> Interesting way to look at it. >> And you see it in CEOs.
(55:37) You see this and the way it expresses is as follows. somebody is being a CEO so that they can get rich and so that people will respect them and somebody else is being a CEO because they're missionoriented. They're like I want to and it doesn't really matter what comes after that sentence. It could be I want to be the best in the game.
(56:00) I want to you know have the biggest yacht. I want to save humanity. I want to be the creator of something. I want to put a dent in the universe. It doesn't really matter what the thing is. But if they have a mission, that mission makes it so that they don't burn out. So if you look at a CEO who burns out and a CEO who doesn't burn out, one of them is missionoriented and one of them was oriented at success.
(56:32) And and so and and part of the reason for that is because if you're focused on your mission, you're not focused on yourself and there's less shame. >> Nice. >> So it's just a cleaner fuel. Like I mean I would bet you I would bet you whatever I would bet you $20,000 that as the the as you drop this idea of you're not good enough you will be more ambitious and you will you will bite out off more than you can che you'll you'll do even more.
(57:07) I see it so consistently with the CEOs I work with. >> Nice. >> Less shame, more success. There might be a moment or two where they're like, "Oh, I need a break." And they they pull back because they've been like running on dirty fuels for a while, but it doesn't last long. I mean, unless they've been doing it for like 30 years, then it lasts a long time. Like, it lasts a year or two.
(57:28) >> Interesting. That's a That's a good way to see things. And because we're talking about ambition, do you think can ambitious be manufactured or are some people just born hungrier than others? I think everybody's ambitious. Like it takes ambition to play a video game for eight hours a day. Like I couldn't do it.
(57:56) >> Me neither. >> I could like just I would I would be >> Yep. I can't. >> Yeah. It So there's there's like So the question is like where is your ambition pointed? M >> and a lot of the reason that the ambition is pointed in places that are safe is because people are scared of a feeling of rejection.
(58:17) People are scared of a feeling of failure and people are scared of a feeling of great success. Both of those two things are very scary for people because both of them destroy their identity. >> I'll give you a great story about this. I have a a a a hair had a haircutter um great human being >> and he's an artist and I went into his I got my haircut at his house and he has all this art >> and I said are you selling and he was like nope I'm like I'll give tell you what I will give you $1,000 >> if you can get 50 rejections in two
(58:54) months and he couldn't because he got into three galleries and he was too busy painting. And so, but all that was was the reframe of every rejection is a success instead of every rejection is a >> failure >> is a failure. So, if you have a lot of self- abuse, >> then you take those failures as reasons that you're bad >> and so then you can't then you're like, "Oh, I'm not a good artist.
(59:25) " Right? Your identity changes. But if you have a lot of success then well what am I trying to do? What am I trying to accomplish? Like why do I need even more of this? All that is also questioning your identity. And so for people it's really scary. Both of those things are incredibly scary. >> And tell me one one reason for each.
(59:48) Why are people scared of failure? And why are people scared of success? >> They're both scared of it because it destroys their identity. It destroys who they think they are >> and how have they formed this identity. >> Yeah. Again you most of it's in childhood and then you know what's happened since that point. >> Some story.
(1:00:07) >> Yeah. Some story. Some story that they have. This is the kind of person I am. And it's the same when I complimented you. >> And my I'm I'm pushing your identity. I'm I'm questioning your identity. your identity is I am not quite successful enough yet. And I was going, "Yeah, really, really? Is that your identity?" And it kind of tickles and it kind of hurts and it's kind of scary, but that's that's what I'm doing.
(1:00:36) >> Yeah. >> That's why when I'm coaching people one- on- one, I'm like you can see them like on YouTube is I'm so effective because I'm I'm going right to the identity. M >> I'm not messing around with the >> And why are why is everyone so scared and so uncomfortable the moment we challenge their identity? >> I saw it in me.
(1:00:59) I like right now like >> I was more >> I was very open to the idea of love and guilt because it it was striking a chord and I could think about some patterns >> but I got really uncomfortable the moment you complimented me. >> Right. >> And that appreciation made me more uncomfortable. >> Yeah. and and you spot it out because somewhere in my head the identity is I'm not enough.
(1:01:21) >> Yeah. >> And the moment you trouble that, >> right, >> it it's uncomfortable, >> right? Yeah. I it's it's a interesting question why that's the case. I think that that our number all of our thoughts this is a guess, right? But all of our thoughts rely on one thought >> and that thought is I. All the truth to your thoughts, all the lies of your thoughts are based on that concept of I.
(1:01:55) And we never really particularly investigate it. But if that idea of I starts dissipating, the Zen call it zenickness. the the there's such a fear that comes up and arises and everybody I've ever met where that sense of eye starts disintegrating there's just like this tremendous amount of fear because everything relies on that thought meaning if I'm different will I be loved if I'm different will I be able to love if I'm different will I still be able to make money if I'm different how will I grocery shop and you'll see this like
(1:02:28) we'll have people come out of our retreats particularly the in-person retreat and they'll go to the grocery store and they don't know how to shop anymore or they're like, I I used to eat this, but I was eating that so I could like not have to feel [ __ ] Now I don't know what I actually want to feel if want to eat because I want to actually feel and they're in the grocery store and they have no idea.
(1:02:51) And that's scary for people. They want consistency. They people in general, you know, often prefer safety to freedom. M and how can somebody find out who are they? Like who am I? >> Yeah. >> Are there like couple of questions that I >> You want you want to play a game with me on this one? Of course. Okay, cool.
(1:03:13) So, >> I'm going to ask you what you are essentially and you're going to answer. I'm going to ask you like five or six or seven times in a row. >> Wow. [snorts] Okay. >> And your job is to answer it differently every time. The words don't have to make total sense, but it's what you are essentially. Meaning, it's what you've been from the moment that you were born till right now.
(1:03:37) It's never changed. It's never been hurt. It's always been here, right? Because if it's you, then it couldn't have gone away. So, it can't be something like I'm angry or I'm sad or I'm ambitious cuz there's moments you haven't been. >> And it can't be something like a son because that could be taken away from you.
(1:03:54) >> True. >> Right. your parents will be gone and then you won't be a son anymore. So the question is the very essence of what you are that can't be touched, can't be changed in your lifetime. That's what you're answering >> and I'm going to ask you like five or six times. >> Wow. Okay. Yeah. >> I'm I'm going to try >> try. Yeah.
(1:04:12) >> I because >> half of the things that you said you've like shed out the words which I was already thinking. >> Yes. Right. >> I can't. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Okay. We will try. >> Okay. So all those things are what we like to think our identity to be. So what are you essentially use your whole body not just your head? >> I I love playing.
(1:04:41) I don't know what that means. >> So what you are essentially is playing. >> Yeah. >> Just >> great. >> A gamer. I don't know. [laughter] >> So your job is just to answer with like one or two or three words. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, what are you essentially? And you're you said playing. >> Great. And then I'm going to ask you again.
(1:05:02) What are you essentially? >> Curious. >> Curious. Great. >> Because I I was playing like 500 things. >> No more. Just curious. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then what are you essentially? So, what's happening right now in you is there's this big spaciousness that's opening up. >> Like it gets quieter. there's like more we call this like a 404.
(1:05:25) There's like this like system air. Your brain isn't like coming up with the quick answers, right? And that's that is like that's what you are essentially. So just go into that spaciousness for a minute and then like what are you essentially >> and what I've been since I was a child >> ever always >> like almost >> in every phase in every area of my life >> in the moment of pain in the moment of pleasure in the moment of failure in the moment of success what are you essentially >> figuring out I'm always like even in pain even in Yeah,
(1:06:10) >> enjoy. I'm I'm just like, okay, why is this happening and what is this? And then what? >> But there's [snorts] definitely moments where you're not trying to figure it out. >> Very rare. >> Yeah. So, what are >> always like finding out >> then what are you then what are you in those moments when you're not finding out what's what is the essence of who you are? So this is the inquiry.
(1:06:43) This is this is the scary inquiry. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because if it if this part of you if you identify if you understand that part of you, you can't ever be destroyed, right? Like there you are success, failure, whatever. You have this like deep level of consistency that you can come from and identify with that can't be taken from you.
(1:07:07) This podcast can be taken from you. Your parents can be taken from you. This can't be taken. >> So trying to find out this this these words these things. >> I ask that question to myself 10 times a day for a decade. >> Yeah. Because it's so difficult to think. It's beyond thought. >> Yeah. >> But you were experiencing it.
(1:07:34) >> It's very difficult. It's uncomfortable. >> Yes. Cuz that's beyond your identity. >> Yeah. >> That spaciousness that opens up. >> You've just I've not even started a podcast with you. You've given me three things to think about right now. >> And my goal usually from the podcast is to take one thing and think about it.
(1:07:55) >> During the podcast, I'm going to think about three things. [laughter] That's it. >> I'm sorry. >> It's okay. I I love that. I I I think we we love doing this. A lot of people will be thinking with me about [snorts] their own lives. So, it'll be it'll be interesting to see, >> right? >> Do you feel a lot of people who have this identity about themselves that they're intelligent? Um let's say a lot of forget identity for a while.
(1:08:21) >> Yeah. because it's [laughter] taking me. So like I would say like why do some highly intelligent people >> Yeah. >> they live [snorts] or spend their entire lives >> performing below their potential. >> Yeah. So they did a study. It was a while back so I don't know what the stats are today.
(1:08:51) So I think this was study was done in the 90s um where it [snorts] was kids with IQ's over 135 which is like less than 1% >> and 49% of them were failing in high school >> failing in high [clears throat] school >> 49% were failing in high school. [clears throat] So nobody really I've never seen a study that proves why I have my theory as to it.
(1:09:23) Um, so they did another study that shows that if you have a kid and you tell them that they're smart and then you give them a test that they can't figure out and then you tell them that they failed and then you say, "Well, you're going to do the same test next time." They don't try as hard >> because it sorry, [ __ ] with their identity of being smart.
(1:09:47) But if you tell the same kid, I really appreciate how hard you tried. I really appreciate the effort that you put in there. They'll actually try harder. Because one identifies with being smart and they don't want to disprove it. And one of them identifies with effort. So, I think a lot of people who are really smart either were told that they were stupid and so they don't know they're really smart or they're trying to not break the identity.
(1:10:17) They get to believe I'm smart if I don't fail and so they don't fail. >> So, what can somebody do today if they've been told they were smart and they've stopped trying? Uh, a great one for this is whatever it is that you want to do, sit down and come up with 15 iterations of how you're going to do it.
(1:10:42) And your job isn't to get it done. Your job is to get through the 15 iterations. >> Why would you say so? >> In the brain, there's a thing called the habenula. And the this is loosely talking, but the habenula basically prevents vertebraes from making the same mistake over and over again in quick repetition.
(1:11:04) So if I am a bear and I fight you for dominance and I lose, it's probably a good idea for me not to fight you again right away. Or if I eat a mushroom and it sucks, I it's probably good for me not to eat a mushroom again. But the way this works in modern society is it makes you like you're on a diet and you eat the chocolate cake and you're like, "Screw it.
(1:11:24) I'm off the diet. [ __ ] it." Because you failed and you're not supposed to. So the concept is changing your idea of failure into an iterative process. And so there's a study that shows that women, I think it was women, but maybe it was all populations of people who were under the poverty line or at the poverty line who um lost weight successfully, all of them had an iterative mindset.
(1:11:50) If you're in dot world, the companies that are successful are the ones that have an iterative mindset. There's no failure. There's just what's the experiment? How do I learn from it? What's the experiment? How do I learn from it? It's when you set up a stake of like, oh, I can fail that then there's this opportunity for failure.
(1:12:08) So, it's the same thing that I did with the barber. It was like your failure would be not getting the one or $2,000 that I promised you, not getting rejected. I just switched the failure frame. >> And that's a really great way to do it. And I see that happen all the time. The other thing to do, which we've already touched on, which is really useful, is how do you enjoy the process as much as possible because if it's not inheritive inherently rewarding, we're less likely to do it.
(1:12:37) >> Two questions on this. First is give me a step-by-step framework like exact things. How can somebody build an iterative mindset? So you don't have to build the mindset, you just have to feel the success of it. So the best way to do it is to line up your iterations in advance. So let's take your gym one for instance, right? >> So you're like, I I want to work out and feel good in the morning.
(1:13:10) >> I'm going to come up with 15 ways that I think I could work out and feel good in the morning. And every one is like potentially a way to feel even better than the last one. and I have these 15 things. >> And then I wake up in the morning and I get to pick from this menu of 15 great things.
(1:13:32) And then if you do that, you'll start noticing that you work out more. It's more exciting. You feel better. You feel better about working out. And then you're more likely to work out. And then you're like, "Oh, this iterative mindset is really cool. Works works well." >> Yeah. >> But the job is to make it like you're just constant.
(1:13:50) You write the list before and you make it clear that it's completing the list is if you don't complete the list that's the failure. >> Interesting way to put it. And there's there's some truth to it. I've done the time where I was the most consistent with my workouts was the time where I was playing a lot of sports and a lot of different sports.
(1:14:11) >> Yeah. you're enjoying it >> and I was loving it >> because you have like you might not have gotten you might not be a school learner, right? But you're clearly a learner and and clearly you like a puzzle and a game like these are things that turn you on and so you were playing multiple games and learning multiple things and you were that that's what worked out for you.
(1:14:32) >> Yeah. >> Right. instead of this idea that your mind has that it's like going to the gym and doing the same weight training is somehow going to keep a mind like yours occupied. >> Yeah. >> It's not going to not going to be rewarding. >> That is true. And because I was playing let's say squash then I was doing boxing a little bit.
(1:14:50) >> Yeah. And then sometime would just go for a run with my friends. And then because I would do all of this by the fourth day or fifth day I like hey you know during the squash like my stroke was not powerful enough so let me now go to the gym and build a explosive. So it was it became like a game and a puzzle to solve that >> I wanted to get better at one thing and then another and and just >> Right.
(1:15:13) And so there's probably another thing that you were doing that improved it is doing it with people. >> Yeah. I can't do it alone. >> Yeah. And so when you're going to the gym, are you going alone? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No wonder it's not working, [laughter] >> right? Because you're so busy on the this is what I should do instead of this is what I want to do.
(1:15:30) I want to work out with people. I want to play games. I want to win. >> Great. Use that. >> Nice. So the way to build it is find out 15 different ways and then finish the 15. >> Yes. >> And then >> and make sure each way is more enjoyable than the last. That's a good nuance. Yeah. Because >> Yeah. 15 boring ways to do something.
(1:15:53) I won't be able to make it to 15. >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And this can go for >> everything. >> Everything. The way you want to speak, if you want to learn how to >> build a startup, Yes. >> raise fund, get rejected, sell. >> Yes. >> Anything at all. >> Exactly.
(1:16:10) If you if like, so for instance, I have to make 20 cold calls so that I can sell something. >> Okay. I am going to figure out 20 ways to contact people and see if this if my product's a fit. And each one has to be more fun than the next. I have to enjoy it more than the next way. Which are you betting on? >> The second one. >> Of course.
(1:16:33) >> Yeah, exactly. >> Of course. Because >> I can have like 20 openers, >> different openers, and then one of them will work. >> And because it's a game like in between five or 10, I can just around a little bit. Exactly. That's right. [laughter] Yeah. [gasps] And you don't beat yourself up and it's you're learning and you're playing >> something.
(1:16:52) >> And a lot of people don't do this because >> they're they're thinking about of embarrassment that if they play beyond their identity, they'll be embarrassed because a lot of other people will judge. >> That's right. Or they'll judge themselves even worse. >> Yeah. How can you stop judging yourself? Every time you judge yourself, ask yourself, what would I have to feel if I couldn't judge myself and feel it? It's just that simple.
(1:17:23) >> Give me an example. Be more concrete. >> Give me a way you judge yourself. >> For not working out. [laughter] >> How do I judge myself? Like >> for not being there for your parents. What would you have to feel if you couldn't judge yourself for not being there for your parents? What's the emotion that you'd have to experience? Where's your judgment now? Just the thought of feeling it.
(1:17:59) Just the beginning of feeling that emotion and the judgment's gone. >> Mhm. But is it is is it wrong that when I'm being selfish and doing something of my own? >> Mhm. >> And I and [clears throat] if I'm not judging myself in that moment, >> you still haven't given me >> I'm feeling free and I'm enjoying. >> Yeah. >> Is that wrong? Because I'm enjoying >> what what would make it wrong? What would make enjoying yourself wrong? You have a child and you got to choose.
(1:18:38) They were going to be an accountant and they were going to be in the top 5% of accountants >> and that was going to be the case >> and you got to choose. They enjoy their life or they don't enjoy their life. What are you choosing? >> Enjoy their life. Of course. >> Yeah. And are they if you enjoy their life, are they less likely to be an addict? >> Yeah.
(1:19:03) If they enjoy their life, are they more likely to be successful? >> Yeah. Even if they're not in traditional terms, I'm happy. >> Yeah. >> Because in their own heads, in their own eyes, they'll be successful. >> Yeah. >> Are they more likely to have a happy marriage? >> Of course. >> Are they more likely to raise good kids? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
(1:19:21) So, is it bad for you to enjoy yourself? [laughter] >> You're putting me on spot. I love it. I love it, though. So my handle in Twitter is [ __ ] you Joe Hudson. It's f you Joe Hudson [laughter] because a lot of people at this moment look at me and go [ __ ] you Joe. So >> feel free. [laughter] >> You you wrote something that that get me to that was around shame.
(1:19:46) >> Yeah. >> Let me read that post. You know that was one of the most most in like hard-hitting post that I read of yours. Okay. >> And and we go deeper on that because we're talking anyway about internal shame and judgment and stuff like that, right? >> It's you read somewhere. Okay. This is >> you can tell how much internal shame someone has by how judgmental they are.
(1:20:11) The other way to see this is you can tell how much internal shame you have by how judgmental you are. Every judgment you make about someone else is pointing to a part of you that you're still rejecting. >> Yes, >> that is exactly why the things that bother you so much are oddly hyperspecific. The lazy person triggers you if you never allow yourself to rest.
(1:20:37) And the needy person triggers you if you learned as a kid that needing was unsafe. The work isn't to avoid shame or to improve yourself to be better. It's in following the shame and rediscovering the part that wasn't welcome. >> Yeah. >> Bang on. >> Yeah, it's a good one. >> And and I this line gets me every time I read this that the needy person triggers you if you've learned as a kid that needing was unsafe.
(1:21:06) >> Right. So that's the self-reliance thing that we talked about earlier, right? Can't can't need. Why? When I get triggered, when somebody is getting triggered. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Actually, let's divide into three parts. Let's say >> how can you if if someone's judging someone? >> Yeah. >> They're only doing this because they're ashamed of something.
(1:21:36) >> Correct. >> Always. >> Correct. I I haven't seen it any other way. >> And judging themselves. And if someone's judging themselves for something, for not working out, for not being there for their parents, there's some shame there. >> What is triggering people so much >> that >> that it becomes second nature to judge people for something they are not good at? Like you know how >> I've seen a lot of people, >> they get triggered if someone else shows off.
(1:22:06) >> Yeah. >> Because they have this longing need to be seen in a certain way. Yes. >> And that's why they're judging someone else for showing off. And that's that's always there. I've seen it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Great. Perfect example. >> So, and it triggers them. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> So, as a kid, if there's something that you natively want, you want to have fun, you want to play, you want to show off.
(1:22:31) All these things are natural for kids, right? There's no little boy who hasn't sometime in the age of 5 to seven shown off. like it's just natural. But if you got judged for doing that, if you got shamed for doing that, if you were made fun of for doing that, then this part of you is trying to stop that from now on.
(1:22:55) And then if you try to stop it, one of the way that one of the it's not only just the way, but one of the symptoms of stopping it is the judgment. The other one is actually a constriction of your musculature. M >> so you can actually see the way people constrict their muscles like what they allow themselves to feel and not feel right.
(1:23:18) So I'll give you an example like this thing here that I'm doing with my shoulders that's a critical parent hunch. If you see people with this thing it means that they had a super critical parent and there's certain things that they're not going to feel and so you can actually see it. In Ayurvedic medicine, they talk about the line that happens right here, which is repressed anger, right? This facial expression of I'm constantly skeptical is repressed anger.
(1:23:45) And so, so one thing you have to do is judge. One thing you have to on the intellectual level to constrict this emotional experience that we're having because we're not allowed to play. We're not allowed to show off this emotional thing. We have to intellectually judge emotionally. We have to um on the emotional level, we have to muscularly hold our emotions.
(1:24:06) And a nervous system level, we have to think we're unsafe and we have to protect ourselves. We we armor up the way you armored up a little bit when I complimented you the first time. I'm going to like armor that up. And so those are the symptoms of not being able to have that emotional experience. >> And so that's where the shame comes from.
(1:24:30) Like that's the that's the experience that we have. That's where the trigger comes from. That's more >> that's one one emotion. That's one kind of feeling. Shame. There can be any number of negative feelings. And this >> positive ones too. >> Positive ones too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I dare you to walk into a restaurant and just like laugh to yourself for 5 minutes.
(1:24:53) People will be far more upset with that in New York City than if you're like crying. >> Really? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I think a lot of places around the world. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> If you're laughing by yourself like how how uncoot. >> Exactly. [laughter] What's wrong with that guy? Yeah.
(1:25:19) >> That >> Yeah. >> Why? It's the same whatever emotional experience we weren't allowed to have. >> Right. Calm down, Johnny. Don't be so excited. You're bothering me with all that excitement. Don't like just settle down. >> Yeah. Do you have trouble I'm asking you, do you have trouble trusting people who are internally excited all the time? >> I've never met anybody who's eternally excited all the time.
(1:25:46) I have no problem trusting people who are generally excited. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That's >> my experience is that all the emotions kind of come and go. My trust rises with somebody if their emotions like come and go freely. What I would call emotional fluidity >> and my trust decreases with people when their emotions are like very contained and they don't allow their emotions to flow because th those are the people who can justify their actions much quicker.
(1:26:12) explain emotional fluidity and explain how can you be more trusted as a human being. >> For me, like I trust more. So, um I say it this way that um joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome. So, if somebody has deeply experienced joy, then they know where it comes from.
(1:26:37) and it doesn't come because I got the extra $2,000 out of the deal or because I stole somebody's jacket or something like that. Whereas people who are like not emotional don't have that access to joy. They think that their happiness is going to come from winning the thing or getting ahead or something like that.
(1:26:57) And so what I notice is people who have uh a hard time being able to feel all their emotions just can justify their behavior easily. And there's actually well there there's some there's some there's some um studies that have shown similar things, but I I I I don't have them fresh enough to quote them, so I'm not going to. Yeah. [laughter] Okay.
(1:27:23) >> Yeah. I want to be accurate. Yeah. >> Yeah. This takes me to because you're talking about feeling emotions and negative and positive. Because of emotions, you you have certain problems in your life, right? And there was a guest on my podcast who said that every problem that you have today with your partner >> Mhm.
(1:27:44) >> are the same problems that you have had with your parents. >> Yeah. >> Is that true? >> Pretty accurate. Maybe not every but >> most of them. >> Most of them. And [clears throat] why why the problem that we have with our parents are the similar kind of problem that we'll have with the partner. >> It was the same thing that we were talking about which is if you had guilt wired with love >> then you're going to find a lover who guilts you.
(1:28:14) If you um learned that guilt was married I'm sorry love was married with yelling then you're going to have that experience. And so and and it's actually really it's really intelligent. It's like really really really intelligent. So the way I think about it is this, like we're a cell that's trying to get back to homeostasis and you have an experience as a kid and in your kid in as an experience in a kid, you feel like you have to earn love by being valuable and but the the cell knows that that feeling of valuess should doesn't isn't determined on on doing something that
(1:28:52) your native nature is to be valuable that you're valuable just being there. And in a and in a marriage, that's exactly why, you know, you should be valuable because you're here with me. That's the value. But you don't get that. So what you do is you keep on finding people who tell you that you have to do things for them and you keep on thinking I have to do things for them to keep them happy and then you take responsibility for their happiness and they're never entirely satisfied. And so there's this like this
(1:29:23) thing happens again. And that pattern will repeat until the moment that you actually let the he the cell get back to homeostasis. Until the moment that you can recognize the value that you hold just by being you. Then the pattern doesn't need to repeat itself anymore. And when the person guilt trips you, you go, "Oh, like, uh, I really see that you want me to do this thing.
(1:29:53) I really see that it's important to you that I do this thing, and I don't want to do it. So, how do we both be happy? You not having me do it and me like, how do we be happy with both of us living in our truth instead of bending for one another?" And then the pattern changes. For me, the the experience of this was my dad was an alcoholic and so there was a big emotional abandonment in my life.
(1:30:18) And so everywhere I went, there was emotional abandonment. And what happened was the people would emotionally abandon me or I would sense it and I would do one of two things. One, I'd be like, "Yeah, you anyway." Or the other one would be, "Oh, please no. What can I do? How can I like that's what I did when people emotionally?" And it turns out just like in all these situations, this anyhow makes people emotionally abandon you.
(1:30:47) And being needy makes people emotionally abandon you. So I was creating the thing in the exact way I was trying to avoid it. And then a moment came in my life where I was like, "Oh, what what's so wrong with this emotional abandonment? Like what is it exactly? Like why why am I so [ __ ] scared of this thing?" And so I started investigating it.
(1:31:09) And we have this is we have a tool around this called emotional inquiry that people can get for free and and I would like start deeply trying to experience the emotion that I was having. Like what is it like to be emotionally abandoned? Like why am I so scared of this? Can I just step into it the way you would a workout? You know, like >> Yeah.
(1:31:31) like and and the moment that I could be like, "Oh, I don't I I I look forward to emotional abandonment again." Because every time I'm feeling it, I'm learning something about myself. Every time I'm feeling it, I'm getting an unlock. Every time I'm feeling it, I'm less scared of it and I'm acting more like myself and not like you or please, please, please come here.
(1:31:51) And and then I couldn't wait to feel it. And then the pattern stopped because the entire pattern was built about me not trying to feel this one emotion. And if you think about how many decisions you've made to not feel unloved or to feel successful or to not feel like a loser or to feel like you like are valuable, whatever it is, it's like 80% of your life.
(1:32:16) >> Yeah. And how do you break this toxic pattern? So the just the way I described it, which is you you use whatever methodology, emotional inquiry is a great one to go into the experience of the emotion instead of run away from it. So you're about to pick up a phone to scroll TikTok. There's an emotional experience that just happened that you don't want to have.
(1:32:45) Okay, I'm going to do this thing so I don't have to feel this. go into that feeling, learn to love that feeling, and you won't scroll on TikTok anymore. That's that's the thing. And so, but when you go to feel the feeling, the trick isn't to I'm feeling the feeling to drop Tik Tok cuz that won't work. It's to literally have a gamer's mindset of what is this feeling exactly? Where do I feel it? What makes it so scary? How does it move? Where is it in my body? like what does it look like from the inside of it? What does it look like
(1:33:21) from the outside? It's literally to have like a an a one a mind of curiosity and play with the emotional experience. >> Tell me a stepby-step process how to feel emotions. It's different for everybody because some people have learned to cut off their emotional experiences entirely and some people have have much more access to feeling their emotions.
(1:33:49) So, there's lots of frameworks that we use. Um, if you really don't understand your emotional experience, the first thing to do is just learn how to feel your body because all of the emotions happen in your body. They don't happen. The brain has a side effects, but they don't happen in your brain. to happen in your body.
(1:34:08) >> Okay, explain more. Give me an example. >> I'm This is a little bit uncuth. How would you tell me? >> When I'm done pooping. >> How do you know when you're done? Did you measure it? >> Okay. How do you know when you're done? >> That's just feeling of >> it's done. It's I'm satisfied like my body knows it. >> Yeah.
(1:34:40) Yeah. So that's where that's how you understand emotions. The same way you understand when you're done it's like it's in your body. It's not in your brain. There's no there's just like oh this is the experience I'm feeling. So a great exercise to start off with if you have like no emotional access is to 5 10 times a day go what's the experience in my body right now? What's the how do I how do I feel in my body right now? That's a great like first step.
(1:35:09) What's this experience? And then patterns start to be recognized. >> So in the book, The Body Keeps the Score, he talks about people who are physically abused. And you can put like a key in one hand and a quarter in another hand without telling them. And they can't tell you which is which because they've cut off the sensations of their body because of the abuse.
(1:35:32) Similarly with emotions, there are people who were told emotions aren't safe. So they just cut off understanding the emotions. So that can be like a very really important first step. >> So no matter what you're going through, ask yourself after that experience, where do I feel this in my body? >> What just what does my body feel like right now? >> And then >> and then it turns into where am I experiencing it? What does it look like? How does it feel? How does that feel different? And some at some point it's really
(1:36:03) important to be able to name the feelings and at some point you can't name the feelings like that it's all that all moves over time but the main thing is to really feel your body and to start noticing like where your muscles are contracting and a lot of it happens in this core area. A lot of it happens you know from like the just basically your core from the bottom to the top is where a lot of the constrictions happen for emotions.
(1:36:29) >> Gut. gut. A lot of people feel it in the gut, >> chest, throat. >> And what happens once I start asking myself the question that how does my body feel at this point? >> And I ask myself this question 20 times, 30 times every day for >> for a while. >> For a while >> and then I start probably feeling it. >> That's right.
(1:36:51) Then you start having access to the feelings and then the job is to be really curious and go into those sensations. >> And what do I do next? and you find out that everything you're scared of feeling is actually kind of awesome. [laughter] And this the reason that this is so important. Okay, in 200 12 I think it is there was a book called Dart's error >> by a neuroscientist >> and basically what it he talks about and it's now been proven before I think even there is that we make all of our decisions in the emotional center of our brain. You have never made a logical
(1:37:24) decision in your life. Neurologically speaking, if I took out the emotional center of your brain, your IQ would stay the same, but your ability to decide what color pen to use would take like 20 or 30 minutes >> to know because we make emotion that it it's that's our decision-m center. It's not logic.
(1:37:46) We're using logic to try to figure out how we're going to feel. >> There's an exception to this. The exception is like if you see a snake, then it doesn't go through the emotional center. It goes just into the nervous system and you just jump out. So there's a shortcut if you're in physical danger, but otherwise we're where do we have restaurant? By how we want to feel.
(1:38:04) Where where are we going to eat? By how we want to feel. What do we say to our boss? Because what we think we're going to feel by saying the thing to our boss. That is that is neurologically how it works. So if you want really clear decision making, it's being really happy feeling any thing that you want to feel. So you have always been willing to feel failure and so you've done a thousand experiments, you've tried big things, you've taken big swings and here you are.
(1:38:45) If somebody was like failure, I can't feel it. Cuz every time I felt failure, love was removed. Every time I felt failure, I got punished. Anytime I failed, like I will not feel I was always criticized. I had to be right all the time. They're not going to they're not going to feel failure. And so they can't do what you've done.
(1:39:04) As soon as they can fall in love with failure, they're like, "Cool. I can't wait to feel failure. >> I can't wait to feel emotionally abandoned. I can't wait to feel valueless, to feel I have no value whatsoever. I can't wait for that experience. Then what used to be this many options becomes this many options.
(1:39:24) >> Nice. I I do feel I do like failure. >> Yeah. >> I I find out new ways to fail. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you could that's that's one of those things nobody how can you like failing but because you do you have all this success >> it's so it's it's so contradicting >> so contradictory right >> everything that you do is because you want >> you want to fall in love >> you want to play the game you want to be best in the game >> and yet all you optimize is for a new way to fail Yeah. Yeah.
(1:40:05) Right. Yeah. So like it's the same with a marriage. >> You know, if you are always trying to feel in love in a marriage, your marriage is going to fail. >> If you I'll give you an example of this. My wife and I, we've been married for 20 28 years now, I think. And um and our wedding vows, what I said to her is like, I'm not vowing to stay married to you.
(1:40:32) I'm vowing to just do whatever it's required for us to be happily married. Like I don't stayaining married doesn't matter, you know? >> And so we've been married I've been married to probably five, six, seven different women in that time frame. They're all my wife, but she's been different. I'm different, right? We're like, she's not the woman I married and she's and I'm not the man she married.
(1:40:54) And so in this framework, what h in this time frame, what happens is that there's moments where I don't know how we're going to do it or she doesn't know how we're going to do it. And so the first thing we'll do is we'll grieve the end of the marriage. Like we're let's just assume that the marriage is over and we cry and we grieve and we lose.
(1:41:13) And then when we come together, we're not scared of that anymore. And so we can be ourselves. I'll be me, she'll be her. And then we'll find a way that we want to be together and support each other in that time rather than I'm not going to say the hard thing to her cuz she might get mad. Rather than I'm not going to like say what I want cuz she might leave me.
(1:41:33) >> I'm going to be honest and I'm going to be true because I'm not scared of the result. And if you look at someone who's trying to make a really hard decision, all that means is that they're scared of the result. They're and they're scared of the emotion that will happen as a result. My boss will fire me and I will feel like a failure.
(1:41:54) What [snorts] if what if someone has forgotten how to feel emotions? What if they've gotten emotionally numb and they don't understand the things that you're talking right now and it feels like alien to them? >> Have you heard of emotional amnesia? >> I've never heard of emotional amnesia. Oh, so it's a it's a term which a lot of young people are using now.
(1:42:16) >> Mhm. >> That because they're so overstimulated and overwhelmed >> and they've seen so many things in their life. >> They've been through a war. They've seen pandemic. They've seen their parents' marriage getting >> they've seen people constantly >> they're comparing themselves with people on social media.
(1:42:36) There's always someone younger who's more successful than there like all sorts of emotions everywhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because of that, they've forgotten how to feel emotions. So it's like they feel something and they forget completely the next morning because every real, every TikTok is making them feel something different.
(1:42:56) So all of these things when you feel so much and because you've felt so much and every minute is changing, >> you've forgotten how to feel deeply and have this feeling for a long time. That's what emotional amnesia is. That they've gotten numb now. >> Yeah. >> I was like, I don't feel anything anymore because all the things that I wanted to feel, I felt it and it's done.
(1:43:14) Like, I don't care. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like hell. >> Yeah. >> It sounds horrible. >> But a lot of people are going through this that they've stopped feeling certain things. >> Yeah. So, >> forgotten emotions. >> Yeah. So, I particularly like the trauma response, PTSD. There's definitely like there's some stuff I am not going to feel because if I do it's going to all come back to me.
(1:43:37) So I definitely know about that particular one. I definitely also have seen people who have overstimulated themselves into a set of numbness. But the there is no moment that we're alive when emotion isn't happening. Numbness is an emotion that like that that is an emotional state. You can describe it.
(1:43:57) You can say like in my body the numbness feels like like near the skin and kind of in the middle of the body and like there it's an it's a it's an emotional experience. So there's no you can't be consciously awake and not having an emotional experience. So, I like the term, but basically like I've been my emotional system has been so overstimulated.
(1:44:19) It's like I've been using porn and so like now I don't get turned on because I've jacked off 20 times a day. Like I like I get the the thought process, but there it doesn't mean that they're not having an emotional experience. Yeah. So, but what's probably happening is there's certain emotions that when they come up, they're just trying to avoid them as quickly as possible.
(1:44:42) >> And so, they're doing it by stimulating themselves with movies or Tik Toks or whatever. >> So, what are the most what are the three most important feelings to feel if somebody has forgotten just in the over stimulated world? Yeah. The problem is that if you tell somebody that they're supposed to feel a feeling, that slows down them feeling the feeling.
(1:45:06) So, you'll see people come into our courses looking to be able to feel sadness. And the more they try, the harder it is for them to feel sadness. And as soon as they like let go, that's when the sadness actually moves. >> And so, the the three most important are the ones that are the first three to come up.
(1:45:24) Those are the [laughter] first the most important ones to come because >> it's a human experience. What do you think? what are the three emotions that >> so typically the way it works is that depends on the culture um and if you're a male or female in the culture anger and sadness are going to be one of the first two then the other one's going to be the second the third one is going to be fear and then the fourth one is going to be peace or joy exuberance ecstasy and they're just as hard to feel as the as the other ones.
(1:46:00) So like if we're doing one of our retreats and we're moving anger, I'll watch people move anger for like 40 minutes and then we'll say like, "Okay, let's start um feeling some pleasure." And everybody will be checked out inside of like 2 or 3 minutes. [gasps] >> What emotion do you think secretly is controlling people? >> The the deepest one is shame.
(1:46:23) That controls people. But any emotion you don't want to feel is your boss. Period. End of discussion. >> M >> if I if you don't want to feel a thing, then it is going to drive you into addictive behavior. It's going to limit your decision-m power. >> So you said judgment. Okay. Let's let's talk about three.
(1:46:45) Judgment is equals to shame. >> Yeah. >> The other big one is overthinking. A lot of people can't decide because they're all they're overthinking. >> That's that's also avoidance of an emotion. What kind of avoidance is that? What what are they trying to >> So they can't they can't make a decision. They can't make a decision because there is an outcome that they don't want to feel.
(1:47:02) >> So feel that outcome. They'll make the decision. >> And hard decision. Same >> same. So the the interesting thing about decision-m so right now today in this conversation how many choices have you made? >> Hundreds. [snorts] >> Right. None of those in my terminology. None of those are decisions because you never really thought about them.
(1:47:26) They just happened. >> Yeah. >> Now there's this something we're going to call a decision. And that means I'm going to sit down and really think about it and squirm on it and like write SWAT analysis on it and I'm going to like should I do it? Should I not do it? As soon as that happens, then you're you have fear in the system.
(1:47:43) You're scared of an outcome or there's no need to have like that kind of rumination. Maybe maybe think about it for a minute or two, but like that deep kind of rumination. you're scared of a particular outcome and the outcome because we know this neurologically is an emotional outcome. So, oh, how do I make sure that I'm not homeless? As an example, >> but if I was to tell you, hey, you're going to end up homeless and but I guarantee you're going to be happier and more satisfied and your life is going to be more meaningful than any other moment
(1:48:12) of your existence and it's going to last for like 10 years. Like, how scary is being homeless anymore? So we're really trying to avoid an experience of like say helplessness when we're trying not to be homeless. And so that's kind of the that's what's that's what's going down. >> But when when you know >> okay that [clears throat] >> you've understood the underneath trigger the emotion that you're trying to avoid.
(1:48:42) >> Yes. >> Let's say pick up a larger one that rejection. Yeah. >> A lot of people are trying to avoid rejection and they they know about this. >> Yes. Yeah. But every time they avoid it, it makes the pattern stronger. >> Correct? >> How avoiding it already creates rejection too. We call this like the golden algorithm.
(1:49:00) >> Okay. >> I am going to reject. I'm going to fear rejection. So what do I do? What do I do if I don't fear if I fear rejection? >> What do I do if I don't >> a human I'm sorry. A human that you know is scared of rejection. What do they do? They not do they don't do anything at all. >> Right? So then they reject themselves.
(1:49:26) >> Everything that we do to try to not feel an emotion invites that emotion >> to us. >> Give me more examples. I This is rejection. >> This is rejection. Give me an emotion that you don't that you don't want to feel. >> No, let's pick up the the larger ones. >> Okay. H rejection can be one. >> Yeah.
(1:49:49) [clears throat] >> Um what what can guilt can be one >> right? Okay. So I don't want to feel guilt. Therefore I am going to do what? What do you do when you don't want to feel guilt? >> Try to compensate and give time to that person with whom you feel guilt about. Okay. [laughter] So, you're going to betray yourself to try to take care of somebody else.
(1:50:24) >> That creates guilt. >> Yeah, >> that's one example. There's other examples for guilt. >> Let's do another example on guilt, right? So, another example on guilt is that um I feel really guilty, so I'm going to go and take care of this person, but in the back of my mind, I should also be taking care of this other person, this other person.
(1:50:43) So then you'll feel guilty about them as well. It's literally every action you take to try not to feel away. Anger is a great example. Usually people who are not trying to feel angry, they get passive aggressive. >> Mhm. >> Right. Which pisses people off which makes them more angry. You know, >> they're angry at themselves, not to the world, >> right? Because they're trying to suppress their anger in front of the world and then inside it's eating them.
(1:51:11) I'm trying not to have emotional abandonment. So, I'm being needy, which brings down emotional abandonment. >> Or I'm being I'm being like, "Fuck you. I don't care about you anyways." Which brings on emotional abandonment. >> What about freedom? >> What about it? >> Freedom as an like a lot of people want to feel free.
(1:51:29) They don't want to be they don't want to feel stuck. >> Yeah. So, the the algorithm works when it's an emotion you don't want to feel, not an emotion you're trying to feel. >> Yeah. So if there's >> you don't want to feel stuck. Let's say stuck being stuck is an emotion. >> Yeah. So if you don't want to feel stuck typically what do you do? [snorts] Somebody's like I'm stuck.
(1:51:54) What do I do to not feel stuck? >> Do the things that you're not doing. >> So those people don't feel stuck, [laughter] >> right? What what those people do is they say, "Okay, I'm going to really try hard and I'm going to do it. I should do this. I should do this. I should do this." That's what they do and then they do what you did with exercise in the gym.
(1:52:18) >> Would you call this? You said, "Sorry, you were saying something." >> Yeah. I'm just saying the people who feel stuck, what they do is they tell themselves they really should do it, which makes them feel stuck, and then they do it for a little while, but they're beating themselves up, so they quit, so they feel stuck.
(1:52:32) >> Like the example of the gym. >> Yeah. Yeah. Would you call this emotional freedom? When you actually identify an emotion and you try to feel that and you like will that be the emotional freedom because you have like seven stages of emotional freedom. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, if you are happy to feel every emotion that's coming through your system, that's emotional freedom.
(1:52:58) And it leads to a tremendous amount of joy and really great decision-m. >> What what >> and a lot less addiction. But how can you go from being emotionally stuck to feel and have an emotional freedom? What are these seven stages? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, see if I can memorize. I'm not sure if I have them all memorized, but I can give you generally what it is.
(1:53:16) So, the first thing that happens is we're a kid and we feel all of our emotions naturally. >> Okay. And then the second thing is we start having to like stop having certain emotions because our parents are you can't have that emotion, you can't have this emotion, you can't have that much of that emotion. Right. >> Yeah. Exactly.
(1:53:37) Then we go into this management experience where we're trying to manage the emotion. I'm going to not be angry. I'm going to not be sad. But all that does is repress it and like creates physical constriction. And then there's the experience of, okay, >> I'm going to, oh, wait, there's another one back in there. There's the I'm totally controlled by my emotional experience, which is like I'm angry and I'm yelling at you and I'm like, uh, and at some point that's so painful that you start trying to control the emotional experience.
(1:54:06) >> And then once you are finished trying to control the emotional experience, you're like, okay, how can I allow myself to feel the feeling without taking it out on anybody? This is where the kind of the emotional fluidity starts happening. where you're just like, "Oh, I can actually feel these things.
(1:54:22) I can be angry, but I don't have to yell at you. I can just go be angry and then I can come back or I can see, oh, my anger is a boundary that I need to draw or it's a determination that I have." And so, you're not controlled by it anymore. You're allowing the experience, but you're not being run by the experience. And then these emotions start flowing through you, and they they stop being so distinct from one another.
(1:54:46) There's like a joy in all of the emotional experiences. like feeling like we've all most of us have had a cry where it feels so good. We're like, "Oh, that was such a good cry. I feel so much better because I cried." >> A lot of people have that experience. How could they be enjoying crying? Well, it turns out you can enjoy being angry.
(1:55:05) You can enjoy crying. You can enjoy all the emotional experiences cuz it's just sensations moving through your body. If we can enjoy working out, if we can enjoy a deep tissue massage, then the emotional sensations in our body we can also enjoy. And then when that happens and there's just like this love and this very a lot of ease in your decision- making.
(1:55:27) >> I don't know if I've if I being if I enjoy being angry. I I enjoy crying sometimes. >> It's it's very relieving. It's it's good. >> Yeah. So is anger. Anger is so relieving. Only when it's professionally done. >> Only when it's professionally done. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, I mean >> like when I'm when I'm angry at my work.
(1:55:48) Yeah. >> And it makes me better. It's great. >> It's great. >> If I'm getting angry in my personal life, that's sad. And then that takes me the loop of being feeling guilty and then the same thing comes over. But what what makes someone emotionally weak? And especially when someone looks super confident from the outside, what makes them emotionally weak from the inside? >> It's that they're not willing to feel their emotions.
(1:56:16) That's the like they're scared of their emotions. I'll feel everything, but I won't feel I won't feel like somebody making fun of me. I won't feel demeaned. I won't feel dismissed. I won't feel >> What do you feel? control, certinity, trying to just, you know, have everything according to their way, ambition, all of these things make people weak.
(1:56:45) I don't use the word weak. The the thing is I I feel the word it's like more of a damage. But yeah, are they going to accomplish less if they need to be a complete control freak? Yes, they're going to they're going to accomplish less. >> But aren't like all the people that you work with at some point they were a control freak? No, no, >> many of them, but not all of them.
(1:57:04) >> Like a lot of ambitious people and the top 1% people are control freaks, right? >> They they have this likeility. >> How do you have 10,000 people working for you and control all 10,000 of them? >> They are controlling of certain things that they want to be controlling of. >> Yes.
(1:57:24) everything else they're like like there's this unique ability to not care about almost like 99% of the things and then 1% you're like such a control freak that even somebody breathing in a wrong way disturbs you. >> So I'm like that. I like I have a you would call it a I would don't call it a control freak because it's just a st I just call it having a standard >> but like there's a certain um like we have principles [snorts] that we live by in our company.
(1:57:56) >> Yeah. >> If people aren't living by the principles I am I have no patience. >> Right. Our principles are things like everything is an iteration and connection or open the drawer. So if like one of our principles is if there's a problem, you talk about it. You don't keep it to yourself. And if I find out somebody hasn't, I'm very like direct.
(1:58:17) I'm like, I I've lost confidence in you because it's very clear that this is our thing. And so it means that either you're in the wrong place or something has made you unsafe. Either one of those completely unacceptable. So how are we going to fix this? Like I'm very clear about it. I feel like there's a difference between that and being a control freak, which is like I'm going to micromanage you and I need it to be exactly at this line and this decimal point or whatever.
(1:58:45) There's no there's no like constriction in my system. There's just certainty. >> I just know that that's how I want to live. I I know I'm not going to accept anything less than that. You know, the same way that I like am not gonna lie to somebody in a business transaction. I just won't live that way.
(1:59:07) Like like it's just the cost is way too hard. It's the same way that I'm not going to like live in an apartment where though I love Tulle the band. I'm not going to be listening to Tulle at level 10 like 8 hours a day. I'm just not that's not a choice I'm making. >> So it doesn't feel like control. There's definitely what I would say control freaks that but at some point that control has to be broken for them to succeed because at some point you can't scale with being in control in the same way.
(1:59:40) >> There's definitely some CEOs that are just like they come in and they're like this is how we're going to do it. And there's some CEOs that figure out how to get the wisdom of everybody in the room to figure out how to do it. And both can be successful >> because both have certain level of standards that they want everybody else to >> Exactly.
(2:00:01) >> work at or perform. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So you can have high standards. >> Yeah. >> And you just frame it differently. >> And it's internally held differently. Like I can have high standards and I can but I don't have to like be super tight about it. And some people are super tight about it.
(2:00:21) But even like Goldman Sachs where there there's like not one person running it, they have a standard. You have to be really really smart to work there, right? They're just not there's not going to be a diversity of intelligence at a high level of diversity of intelligence at Goldman Sachs. There's going to be other kinds of diversity, but not that >> that's another just a standard >> because there's there's a specific way and standard, too.
(2:00:44) >> Yeah. Is Uber a control freak because it's like fivestar ratings and you can't cheat people or is it just this is the system that we've created that we're operating in? >> Yeah, >> that's standard. >> Yeah, exactly. [clears throat] >> So, and let's say somebody was not operating at the highest standard. Okay.
(2:01:06) >> And they got humiliated. >> Yes. >> So, what is the fastest way to recover >> from humiliation? When you get humiliated, >> feel the humiliation all the way through. It means humiliation controls you. Like if you want to do anything great in this world, you will not do it. If you're scared of being humiliated, you have to like give me one person who's done something great that 20% of the population doesn't hate.
(2:01:44) like it's just you just humiliation is critical. >> How do you tell your brain to be okay with being humiliated, being rejected or made to be feel small? >> Yeah. So, if you're making a decision and you're scared of humiliation, the question that you can ask yourself that's like outside of feeling the emotion, but the question that I always ask myself is what's the what's the decision I would make that I'd be proud of no matter what happened? Most people when they're making a decision, they're trying to figure out
(2:02:13) what the outcome is going to be. And I only think about what would I be proud of? Because if I make decisions that I'm proud of, I have a portfolio of decisions, like a portfolio of investments. I don't need everyone to work out. I need a majority of them to work out or some of them to work out a lot and a whole bunch to fail.
(2:02:34) But like I have a portfolio and if I'm proud of the decisions I make, then my life will be a life that I'm proud of and the people I find to work with me are going to be people who want me to be who I am rather than want me to be different. >> But if you're sitting there saying, "Okay, if I make this decision, will they be happy with me? Will I get this thing? Will I?" then you're going to you might get it all right, but you're going to end up in a in a life that's not built for you.
(2:03:05) It's built for somebody else. >> But let let's let's take it one level deeper. >> Let's [clears throat] make it even more difficult. And that when >> forget just rejection. >> I just by the way love your brain. Like it's pretty awesome. You're you're like how do I break the model? [laughter] It's it's so cool. You're just like, "Okay, well, let me see if I can crack it.
(2:03:30) " [laughter] It's so cool. Sorry. Go ahead. >> Yeah. >> I just think like that. I don't know. >> Such a It's such a joy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. >> I'm enjoying too. It's amazing. [laughter] >> So, I was talking about that. Okay. Forget just rejection. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Think about let's make it more difficult like that when when when >> when everything in your life is collapsing.
(2:03:52) >> Yes. >> Your relationships are not working out. You don't have money. Reputation >> is >> out of the way, out of the window. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Everything at this point feels like a failure. You're just the lowest end in your life. >> Yeah. >> How do you train yourself to feel calm and then come out of it? >> Don't feel what you're feeling.
(2:04:20) And why would I want you to feel calm? and will probably want you to feel sad and grief and scared. >> Then isn't that bad? Because >> the way >> that's transformation that's why transformation happens. Like in in America, I don't know how it is in in in where you come from, but the like you see people get divorced here a lot. 50% of our marriages are divorced.
(2:04:52) You see when people are going through a divorce, if they feel all the sadness and the [ __ ] and everything like that, you see that they transform and they're better people at the end of it and they have better relationships. And you see the people who don't feel it, who stuff it and like I'm going to just keep it together and they just repeat the same marriage.
(2:05:15) >> Isn't like >> or or they stay alone. It gets worse. But isn't like the neurons that fire together wire together. So if you keep thinking about it, then you're technically training your brain to just feel [ __ ] >> I totally agree. But you just you had a distinction. You just said if I keep thinking about it.
(2:05:36) My thought process, what my experience has been when people are constantly thinking about they're not feeling it. [snorts] >> Difference. Rumination is is is trying to suppress an emotion. >> Tell me a difference between thinking about a sad situation or a worse situation in your life versus feeling a worse situation.
(2:06:00) And >> when you're thinking is bad and feeling is not. >> So I don't thinking or feeling are bad. I think >> thinking about the same thing over and over and over again wires your brain. I don't I'm not calling that bad or good. I just think it wires your brain. So if you feel something, often times we're ruminating because we don't want to feel something.
(2:06:24) The same way that we're judging cuz we're not kind of feeling stuff. Cuz what we're actually doing in rumination is judging ourselves over and over and over again for the same [ __ ] Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? It's just self judgment. And so we're pushing down an emotional experience.
(2:06:40) And so countless people, I've seen them finally have the emotional experience and all that rumination stops, all that judgment stops. And so you're not like if you actually feel the feeling. Now, there's a couple ways that that goes wrong. There's some people who feel the feeling, but they don't feel it all the way or they don't feel the feeling underneath.
(2:07:01) So they, you know, instead of like sobbing and being sad and having the grief and when they do that, you know, they have big wave of grief and then a lesser wave of grief and then a lesser wave of grief and then maybe a divorce it takes 6 months or something like that of these waves of grief moving through. That's fine.
(2:07:17) But then there's people who are like grieving and they're like, "Poor me, he was such an [ __ ] I'm so sad that he was such an asshole." There's a lot of blame in there. There's a lot of story in there. There's not just the pure grief. And so that can get stagnant because the story, the recursive story, they're not actually having the full grief or they grieve but they're also really pissed and they're not getting angry.
(2:07:40) So like okay go get angry then go grieve and then the rumination stops >> and how much of extra >> and again like don't trust me do it just like run the experiment. >> Fair everything that you say we have to experience it. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Or else this all of it goes for toss. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. >> Some people will buy it, some people will. Some people won't.
(2:08:01) >> Or they'll think it's true, but they won't won't change their life. >> Yeah. >> And some people like, "Oh, he doesn't get it." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> He doesn't know. He's not lived my life. What does he know about the kind of [ __ ] I'm going through? [laughter] >> Yeah. Should they should look into my life? Yeah.
(2:08:21) [laughter] >> Trust me. No matter how your life is, someone somewhere feels like they have it worse. >> Worse. Yep. That's true. >> And they probably have. >> And they pro. Yes. >> There's definitely people who had it a lot worse than me. >> And I I was asking you that how much of >> how much of extraordinary success that you see is driven out of these negative emotions, pain, insecurity, rejection, feeling like [ __ ] >> Yeah.
(2:08:52) I think that there's, like I said, if somebody's motivated that way, they can motivate themselves to a certain time and then they either blow up or they become burnt out. And then if they if they don't transition into missionaligned motivation, if they don't transition into having some confidence in themselves, loosening up the control, then they burn out typically.
(2:09:13) >> Fair. But this comes later, right? Like in the beginning, you get started with some negative emotions. So how much of >> Yeah. >> like how >> well this is >> you've met endless people. >> Yeah. >> How much of it you have seen that what's the percentage? >> So this the the question that you're asking has like a false premise to it.
(2:09:30) And so at some point you were kind of saying like what makes it that we have this shame. We're all born with it. We all get taught it. Like this is >> this is a reason. >> This is the activation. This is the spark. So you feel almost all >> all of us have that same fuel >> and some change it. Have you seen someone going from zero through to the top completely and not feeling burnt out till the last time of your life till the last time? >> Uh >> I don't know anybody >> they have not felt the burnt out and they're still motivated out of this
(2:10:07) negativity. I was watching this one documentary recently Jookovich. Okay. >> Did you see that? No. No. Okay. You You need to see it. You like it. It's like just one and a half hours because he's driven out of negative emotions. He's driven out of this feeling called in, which is a Serbian word, is like the the unhinged or like a constant chip on the shoulder to prove you wrong.
(2:10:33) >> Yeah. >> And every time and there are instances in >> and Jookovit's life. >> Yeah. We're talking about the basketball player. >> What? >> The basketball player. No, Jookovic is a tennis player. You know this? >> No, I know that the Joker is a basketball player who's also really good and also from Serbia. >> Okay.
(2:10:49) >> I was talking about Jooko. No Jookovic. >> Okay. >> Okay. He's he's a tennis player. >> Okay. >> Top in the world. He's the most accomplished tennis player in the world right now. >> Yes. >> He has 24 grand slams. Roger Fedra, Nadal, nobody has as many grand slams as him. He's like the GOAT. >> Yeah. >> Right.
(2:11:06) >> And people don't love him. >> People don't love him. >> People don't love him. They hate it. >> Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. >> People hate People hate the second best, the third best, and they think that the second and the third are way better than him, even though all the records say that he's the best. >> Interesting.
(2:11:20) >> And he hates the feeling. And >> he hates the feeling of what? >> Just like why don't people love him? Like what's what's this? People boo him. >> Oh, people he hates that people don't like him. >> Yeah. I I don't know if he hates it or not, but it's evident that a lot of people in his life hates that.
(2:11:40) How can somebody be so accomplished and yet get booed by an audience for not like there was this one because it happened recently that he >> he was in the in a very important tournament >> and he faced a muscle injury or some some engineer he was not feeling good he walked out of the event. >> Yeah. >> And everybody booed him.
(2:12:02) >> Ouch. >> And he's the most accomplished tennis player in the world. >> Right. any other player would have done this. People have not booed him and not treated him the way. >> Yeah. It's >> horrible. >> And then one of his coaches says this >> because he just and then next event he goes to the Olympics.
(2:12:22) He he takes that feeling in and he goes and wins the gold medal, right? So his coaches say said this that he loves this feeling that I'm here to prove you wrong. Come doubt me. And you can see his game improving. More and more people are doubting him. If more people are cheering for the opponent, he gets better. >> Okay. >> And he's the champion.
(2:12:44) He's made it to the top. >> So what's the question? >> So the question is, have you seen anyone else go through >> I've definitely experienced >> they go through this pain all throughout and then they still win and they don't feel the burnout. >> So I >> they don't heal themselves. >> Yes. And yes, not heal themselves. Yes. They can be extremely successful.
(2:13:03) no to the burnout. >> Like they will feel burned out at some point. >> I've just never met one that hasn't. I'm sure that there are some. I just haven't met them. The likelihood of burnout is far greater. But even the ones that I assume they have, I still think they're more missiondriven. They might still have the thing aligned, but they are like, I want to see the world in a different way.
(2:13:27) >> I have not. Yeah. So sports is one of those things that people talk about a tremendous amount as an example, but most people in sports are like done pretty young. >> Yeah. >> So in business, you have to see the high performance last for a long period of time. And you can see somebody who's like driven by negativity for a long period of time, but they also are driven by a mission.
(2:13:53) So my experience is that the men who and women who who like continue to fuel on negativity they also have a clear mission or they burn out. >> So and at what point does the healthy ambition turns into addiction? >> I'm not I don't think the addiction is the ambition. The addiction is to get approval. The addiction is to try to feel safe.
(2:14:21) The addiction is to I don't think it's the ambition. >> Interesting. >> The addiction isn't like if you have an ambition to love like is that an addiction? If you have an ambition to you know plant a thousand trees a day is that a is that an addiction? I I I think the addiction is your ambition to prove yourself or addiction to be seen a certain way or to have people like you or to >> is validation.
(2:14:52) >> Validation is a great one. Yeah, that's a great I would call that's more of the addictive thing because you don't ever let it fully in. You you hungry ghost it. You're not actually allowing the validation in. So you're like you get it, you get a taste of it. It gives you like that moment, but you never actually fully get it.
(2:15:11) So, it's like that's why it's more addictive. Like the way a cigarette is like you you have the cigarette because you want to calm down. It kind of calms you down for a minute, but then it an makes you more anxious over time and so you're in this addictive loop. >> And can you break the cycle of wanting constant validation? >> Yeah, that's easy. That's an easy one.
(2:15:30) >> How? >> Allow a compliment in allow compliments in and like actually recognize the truth of your accomplishments and let yourself feel good about them >> and that gets to the starting point of a conversation that that won't make you less hungry because you will then shift from validation to a mission >> and mission usually works out better.
(2:15:58) >> That's right. >> Can somebody have mission from day one? >> Yeah, definitely. I see that all the time. They don't have to reach a certain point by which which getting fueled by their negative emotions and then change into a mission. They don't need to do >> I think there's always some negative emotions that started off.
(2:16:21) It's a great question like for me my ambition all went to the spiritual journey. >> So I was like meditating seven hours a day for like >> like seven eight years. I was like doing every kind of self-help thing that I could find. That was my ambition. It was fueled from I'm not good enough. It was fueled from I want to like stop feeling miserable.
(2:16:47) I like the same thing that fuels it for everybody else, right? If I do this long enough, I'll be happy. If I do this long enough, I'll make it. If I do this long enough, I'll hit some sort of idea of perfection that will make me happy for the rest of my life. It was all [ __ ] None of that happened. just like it doesn't happen for the person who becomes a billionaire or anything like that.
(2:17:05) So I think that that shame the gift gift of that early shame or those negative emotions is it is our fuel to find out that that's not the game we're playing. The game we're actually playing is >> something very different. >> Yeah. [clears throat] You know this do you think that this thing the the negative traits of a founder or of a manager of a CEO >> Yeah.
(2:17:31) >> ends up becoming company's culture? >> Absolutely. And their product >> how how can a founders personality traits end up becoming the culture of the entire company? >> Give me examples as well. >> Yeah. So the same way like an artist's like mentality when they're painting is what you see in the canvas.
(2:17:53) It's the same situation. So if a CEO uh rewards uh is avoidant like they they're like I don't want to have difficult conversations then it's a culture of non difficult conversations. If it's a culture of bullying until you get what you want, then it's a culture of bullying. That's what gets rewarded. So, it's just as simple as like the thing that gets rewarded is the thing that >> that works inside of the company.
(2:18:24) And because also I don't want to work with a certain kind of person. Like you and I are capable people. Capable people are what make a company run. Capable people can determine where they work. So, I'm going to work some somewhere that it fits into the way that I like to operate.
(2:18:44) So, I'm not going to work at a culturally like an avoidant company. I would be like, >> I would be dead. Like, I'm so direct. That's never going to happen. >> [ __ ] >> So, I'm going to work in a company that's direct. And so, so it builds it. It builds the culture that way. >> It is so important to heal yourself. [laughter] The thing is if you >> heal yourself or know yourself both >> true because then indirectly you are just affecting so many people in your life in your company in your family in your friend circle and just you end up if you're the dominant
(2:19:24) force even if you're not the dominant force if you're the most victim force >> or the most dominant force in both cases you're just >> making you're rubbing that effect on everyone else and it's contagious and everyone's becoming that because that's get rewarded or that's gets solved or that gets attention. >> Yeah.
(2:19:42) I mean the Buddhists say about this. They say that it's the most compassionate act you can do. >> But I I want to geek out on a second. Heal yourself, become [snorts] better, know yourself. I I choose know yourself because there's less shoods in it, so it's more effective. But I also choose know yourself because if you really understood a watch, could you fix it? If you just knew how a watch worked, you could fix it, right? So if you like if you focus on fixing yourself, there's an assumption there's something wrong with you and you don't see the picture as clearly. Like
(2:20:20) if I watch how you're working with me today, you're like, I want to know how this whole thing works. I want to just like I want to get the whole understanding. I want to break and I want to see what I can do. That is what allows you to actually master it. But if you are instead going what's wrong with me and how do I fix me? It you're a slower learner >> than just knowing yourself.
(2:20:45) >> Tell me this is probably going to be my last question before I ask you the question that I ask everybody. >> Okay. that is if someone's watching this and they want to get into this practice >> Yeah. >> of becoming better and becoming top 1% in their field. >> Yeah. >> What are one or two things which should become their habit on an everyday basis so that they get really better? You you coach successful people and you help them get better.
(2:21:20) The first question is what makes you want to be the top one or two in the field? That would be the first question that I would ask because the answer to that will determine what happens after that. >> What is driving you that you have this ambition? That's what you answer. >> What what makes it that you want to be the first or second in the field? >> And what can be typical answers for that? >> Lots of answers for that.
(2:21:47) It's the >> What have you heard typically? >> Let me show you what I would do. What makes you want to be the number one in the world? >> No, don't do this to me. [laughter] I've had I have had 500 things to think tonight anyway. I don't want another rabbit hole. [laughter] >> Fair enough. >> I'm very open, but it's too much to >> I got it. I got it. Yeah. Yeah.
(2:22:08) [laughter] Yeah. Especially in and ask me questions. Um, so typically what somebody would do is they would say what I want to be the best because then I'll be noticed and then I would say and then what's the need behind being noticed so that I could feel safe? And what's the need behind feeling safe so that I could be at peace? And what's the need behind being at peace so that I could easily love people? And what's the need behind being able to easily love people so that I could experience the love and be loved and love people?
(2:22:48) So then what I would say is great be the the way you can be the best is to show if that's your answers then make sure that when you're doing the podcast >> make sure that that intention is there make sure that you're loving and being loved and that's how you that's the that's the purpose and drive of your podcast and that even if it doesn't make you the best though it probably will because it's aligned deeply with who you are [snorts] it will make you the best possible version of it for you and it'll make you
(2:23:23) happy. >> Are people wise enough to answer this? >> Oh yeah, we do it all the time. Like that's a that's a basic exercise in one of our courses. So in our courses we don't like there's no lecturing. There's just a whole bunch of experiments that we run like that one and then people get to discover this stuff for themselves >> because maybe I'm assuming this it will be very difficult for people to come up with why do you want to be number one? So let's say because of this and then you ask why again and then why again and then why.
(2:23:51) It'll be very difficult for people to sit down and answer like seven or eight layers of depth. Probably one or two is easy >> only if they're trying to get it right. >> H >> if they don't care about getting it right, it's pretty easy to do. >> So if you don't judge yourself and there's no shame involved. >> Exactly.
(2:24:13) >> Then you don't care about right or wrong and >> Yeah. I got to figure it out. That's right. >> And then you you surrender. You open with yourself. >> Look at you. [laughter] >> He's like, I just watched you like unlock one of those [laughter] one one of those like box puzzle boxes and it just went. That was awesome.
(2:24:31) >> See, finally [clears throat] we're at we're on to something. Yes. [laughter] >> No, I love this. I I loved it. Okay, here are last two question I ask all my guests is one is >> what is one advice nobody should follow? >> One advice nobody should follow. I've never heard that question. That's such a good question.
(2:24:55) Um that's really hard because there's like good advice at different levels of of awareness. I'm I'm going to geek out here for a second. a person at one place in their journey advice works really really well for and then at some point that advice sucks, >> right? Like at some point it's really important to think that like you have choice and you have will and you can do things and at some point it's much more useful to realize it's all a gift and there's nothing but gratitude for what has been happened to you.
(2:25:26) They're both really important. So like what's the bad advice? It's kind of more bad advice for where you are situation. But if I'm going to say one piece of bad advice is that you is that there's something wrong with you. Anybody tells you there's something wrong with you, [ __ ] them. [laughter] Not not interested.
(2:25:44) It's not it's you know, it doesn't mean that there's not things that want to evolve. But you know, like I think about this like an oak tree. It's like when is an oak tree perfect? When it's an acorn? When it's a sprout? When it's 20 [snorts] years old? When it's 100 years old. Yeah, there's constant evolution.
(2:26:05) But there's >> it's it's got its own perfection at every level. >> Nice. So there's nothing wrong. >> There's no Yeah. Nothing wrong with you. >> Like to believe that there's something broken about you is even if you're telling yourself it's bad advice, not effective. >> Nice. And his his last question is >> what is the personal cost that you have paid to become the coach for the top 1% in the world? >> My identity.
(2:26:41) >> And what do you mean by my identity? >> Many things like I had to um I had to see through the personal like I am something to defend that there's something that in me that I need to defend and but also I mean like my job as a coach and as a teacher is that I I allow people to project what they need to project onto me so they don't particularly see me.
(2:27:11) They see the [ __ ] you Joe Hudson. They see the annoying guy who kept on asking the questions or they see the super loving dad that they never had or they see the like they get to see all different aspects of me and so the or not aspects of me just different aspects of themselves reflected in me is more a way to say it and so that's also what I mean is that like my job isn't to bring myself or my wisdom to the work my job is to listen to your wisdom in the work, right? And so my job is to be a mirror more than anything else. So
(2:27:47) there's that way I mean identity, but there's also the way like there's there's no my capacity to understand myself is my capacity to coach. It's not I haven't learned a whole bunch of tricks. I've just like constantly explored myself and in that my identity disintegrates. So the cost that you have paid is >> nobody sees you for who you are.
(2:28:12) They see you the way they want to see you. >> That's one way. Yeah. >> Does that bother you? Sometimes >> there's a sadness to it. Yeah. I was saying this recently, especially as I become notable and you know, people get in front of me and they start crying cuz they saw me or they that like they have some projection of me that I'm going to save them or whatever.
(2:28:34) There's a part of me that's like uh it feels like hey I I I want to connect with you like I want connection and you you don't see me like like and and I don't and there's a sadness to the idea that you think I'm special instead of you seeing yourself as me and me seeing me as you like there's that that there's a sadness to that for sure. Yeah.
(2:28:56) >> Wow. >> Yeah. you your your cost is also very wise in [laughter] >> I mean everything else hasn't cost me I have like amazing family I have amazing wife I have like we have success on every level financial we've touched thousands hundreds of thousands millions of people now like I get to watch people transform for a living like my life is awesome [laughter] you know so >> it's so nice I love it like lot of people when you when we ask them this They're like it costed me my my house, my wife, my friends, my party time, my
(2:29:34) uh sleep, my you know like there's so many like to me if you ask me this question and like I think about it a lot obviously [snorts] there are lots of costs but the most evident one is restlessness. I'm never at peace. Like if you ask me the personal cost that I've paid for what I've become, it's I'm just restless.
(2:29:57) I'm never I'm fully present in the moment. >> Yeah, I see it. >> But the moment this moment ends. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm like, "Okay, what's next?" And then there's this constant need to be on the hamster wheel on on a on a treadmill >> that I can't get off. Right. your cost >> is such [laughter] a and the funny such a wise cost.
(2:30:18) >> The funny thing is I probably work like you work too. I >> I fully agree with that and I know I can see that. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> I'm in New York for like just this and then I'm off to Ottawa to do Yeah. Exactly. >> There's a reason obviously the kind of things that you do. >> Yeah. >> It's definitely not coming because you sleep like 24 hours a day.
(2:30:40) [laughter] >> That's so true. [laughter] What a pleasure to get to meet you. Oh my goodness. Pleasure. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you so much for coming here and doing this with us. >> I love this this pursuit of keep chasing the next thing. I really enjoy it. >> Yeah. >> I almost like sometimes when I really sit with myself >> Yeah.
(2:31:07) And I'm I'm trying to ask these questions which which look easy but are like really tough questions to ask that why am I doing this? What do I really want? What will make me happy? And this and that. And I think this continuous chase makes me happy. I don't think that that number one or anything of that. Like I I don't even care about all of that at any point.
(2:31:27) >> But it's the chase of what? I just love the next like setting a next impossible thing in front of me then chase it and then set another impossible thing and actually the the achievement doesn't make me happy and I don't even care about it >> right >> I just want to set whatever looks like the horizon point to me and I just want to keep running it it's fun >> thank you for watching this episode till the end would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on
(2:31:56) the show let us know in the comments Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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Title: Psychology Of Billionaires, Extreme Ambition & Secrets Of Success | Joe Hudson | FO586 Raj Shamani
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Timestamps -
00:00 — Intro
03:30 — What Makes High Performers Different?
17:35 — How to Stop Rumination & Find Motivation Beyond “I Should”
23:55 — Guilt, People-Pleasing & Learning to Want What You Truly Want
34:07 — Shame, Arrogance & Self-Doubt: The Hidden Drivers of Ambition
45:30 — How to Change Your Inner Narrative & Build Healthy Ambition
1:03:01 — How to Discover Who You Really Are
1:08:27 — Overcoming Fear of Failure, Taking Action & Building Better Habits
1:16:53 — How Judgment Reveals the Parts of Yourself You Reject
1:21:51 — The Inner Critic, Childhood Wounds & Emotional Abandonment
1:33:30 — Reconnecting With Your Body: Emotions, Relationships & Marriage
1:44:48 — Emotional Literacy: Understanding Anger, Sadness, Guilt & Shame
1:53:03 — How to Feel Your Emotions Without Being Controlled by Them
2:00:59 — Rejection & the Cycle of Self-Criticism
2:08:32 — The Need to Prove Yourself: Djokovic, Ambition & Validation
2:20:45 — How to Become a Better Version of Yourself
2:24:40 — One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow
2:26:21 — The Personal Cost of Becoming Joe Hudson
2:30:50 — BTS
2:31:48 — Outro
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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About Figuring Out
Figuring Out Podcast is a Candid Conversations University where Raj Shamani brings raw conversations with the Top 1% in India
Transcript:
(00:00) Why do some highly intelligent people spend their entire lives performing below their potential? >> If you have a kid and you tell them that they're smart and then you give them a test that they can't figure out and then you tell them that they failed and then you say, "Well, you're going to do the same test next time.
(00:18) " They don't try as hard. But if you tell the same kid, "I really appreciate how hard you tried, the effort that you put in there." They'll actually try harder cuz one identifies with being smart and they don't want to disprove it. and one of them identifies with effort. So I think a lot of people who are really smart either were told that they were stupid and so they don't know they're really smart.
(00:39) So what can somebody do today if they've been told they were smart and they've stopped trying? >> A great one for this is whatever it is that you want to do. Sit down [music] and come up with 15 iterations of how you're going to do it. And that's a really great way to do it. [music] So let's take your gym one for instance, right? So you're like, I want to work out and feel good in the morning.
(00:55) I'm going to come up with 15 ways that I think I could work out and feel good in the morning. And then I wake up in the morning and I get to pick from this menu [music] of 15 great things. And then if you do that, you'll start noticing [music] that you work out more. It's more exciting. You feel better.
(01:11) You feel better about working out. But the job is you write the list before [music] and you make it clear that it's completing the list is if you don't complete the list, that's the failure. The [music] other thing to do, how do you enjoy the process as much as possible? Because if it's not inherently rewarding, we're [music] less likely to do it.
(01:27) >> What emotion do you think secretly is controlling people? >> The the deepest one is shame. That controls people. But any emotion you don't want to feel is your boss. End of discussion. [music] If you don't want to feel a thing, then it is going to drive you into addictive behavior. It's going to limit your decision-m power.
(01:45) A human that you know is scared of rejection. What do they do? >> They don't do anything at all. >> Right? [music] So then they reject themselves. Everything that we do to try to not feel an emotion invites that emotion to us. >> Joe Hudson, you coach billionaires, you coach CEOs, you coach [music] people working at the top companies like Apple, SpaceX, Google, Open AI.
(02:06) >> I want to understand how the top 1% people [music] think psychologically. That's what we'll figure out today. >> What is psychologically different about these people who are truly exceptional? So, >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations.
(02:34) And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well. When you're trying to do your best work, you need a laptop that allows you to focus without interrupting your flow. That's why I use the Asus Expert Book Ultra. It comes with up to an Intel Core Ultra X9 series 3 processor that delivers up to 50 watt TDB performance so that it can keep up with your thinking.
(03:05) It's also an AI PC with up to 180 total platform tops and built-in co-pilot plus AI giving you ultra powerful AI capability. And because it's CPU, high performance GPU, and NPU all work together, you get ultra fast performance no matter how heavy the work gets. The ASUS expert book series is available on Flipkart. Check the link in the description below.
(03:30) I was fascinated by your profile. Like you coach billionaires, you coach CEOs, you coach people working at the top companies like Apple, SpaceX, Google, Open AI. Yeah. >> Right. And >> you're literally working with people who are who are the most ambitious people in the world and shaping world in some sort of manner.
(03:52) >> Yeah. >> Right. and you're going to tell us what kind of problems they face and how do you help them unlock it. [laughter] So I want to understand how >> the same problems everybody else faces. >> We'll get there. [laughter] >> Okay. >> I want to understand how the top 1% people think psychologically. >> Yeah.
(04:09) >> So that's what we'll figure out today. Okay. >> Thank you so much for coming on figuring out Joe Hudson. >> Pleasure to be here. >> If let's Okay. You know what? Why don't you tell us if someone's watching you for the first time? >> Yeah. and they have no clue who you are >> and what do you do >> then how would you explain them who you are >> and why should they watch this podcast till the end what are they going to learn [clears throat] >> uh that is like one of the most difficult questions for what I do but I I would
(04:40) say there's like 10 ways to say what I do for a living one you could say I coach really successful people the other is you could say that I help people die well another way that you could say it is that I help people be in deep alignment with themselves. I think all of those things are are what I do. I do it not only with these like bigname coaches, but I also have programs where we have thousands of people go through it every year.
(05:10) So, I get to see all all the different things that block people from all different walks of life, which is awesome. And I think the thing that would make people want to watch is if you go on YouTube and you look at my coaching sessions. If you just see I think there's a hundred of them there and you just watch the transformation that's possible in 15 minutes.
(05:30) That would be a great reason to to watch. If you're like oh if you think you can do that then don't watch it. If you can watch that and go holy goodness this is something that I would like to understand how humans can transform this quickly then this would be a great thing to watch. Well, hopefully we we will see some transformations by the end of the podcast.
(05:52) [laughter] >> So, tell me, we we were talking about this before the intro starts, right? That you've spent years around extremely ambitious people. >> Yeah, I I'm also an extremely ambitious person. >> Brilliant. So then what is psychologically different about these people who are truly exceptional? There's no one thing that's psychologically different.
(06:15) There just isn't. There's some tendencies. There's a couple tendencies. So, I can go into some of the tendencies that that not only drive them but also hold them back. >> Okay. >> So, uh one of them is typically a very strong sense of self-reliance. And so self-reliance is the way I describe self-re reliance is that at a young age you learned that you weren't going to be taken care of the way that you wanted to be taken care of.
(06:42) So maybe you had an alcoholic father and you had to emotionally take care of them or maybe your parents criticized you a lot and so or had expectations and they weren't supportive. Whatever it was, there's a lot of ways it could happen, but typically there's a way in which they've learned that they have to take care of there's no one going to be there to take care of them in one of their needs.
(07:05) Sometimes it's just as simple as they're the oldest of 10 kids or whatever, right? So, and when they have that, a couple things occur. They have a hard time asking for help. Typically, they have a hard time being very clear and direct about what they want. Um, maybe if they're paying people, they have less of a hard time. They have a hard time describing that they're hurt.
(07:24) So, they may be will get angry or they'll control instead of actually just saying, "Hey, I'm hurt." They typically have an issue with authority. Meaning, on one level, they want to not have an authority above them. They want to [snorts] they want to like not have someone telling them what to do, but they also don't want to be in authority completely.
(07:47) They're not like a fully into I I can own my power. I can be the authority because their experience of authority was questionable. So, they don't want to replicate that kind of authority. So, they have that fight inside of them. >> So, they don't want to be authority. And I I didn't get that. >> Yeah.
(08:07) like they they don't want anyone above them. >> They don't want anybody above them for sure. >> But then at the same time they want someone above them or no? >> No. They don't want to be above others. So typically if you see they they'll do it, don't get me wrong, but like if you see a CEO who has this issue, they don't like fully step into their power.
(08:28) they're not really clear in their authority or it takes them a while to get to that place where they can say clearly. I'll give you an example of this. Often times a CEO who has this kind of thing, they'll think that they're responsible for the company >> rather than the company is responsible for them >> because they aren't fully in their own authority.
(08:53) >> Interesting. And do you feel this constant battle of being very powerful and feeling very lonely and negative at the same time? It's a constant feeling which almost every ambitious top 1% people around the world have. >> If they've been doing it for a while, they might have worked their ways out of it.
(09:14) It seems to be a stage that almost every one of them goes through. >> Almost every >> almost every one of them. Not all of them, but almost every one of them that I've met has gone through a stage of feeling like they're alone and lonely in it. >> Would you call Okay, I'm going to tell you an experience from my own >> point, right? And would you call this also a similar kind of tendency? Because so every time I walk in in a room okay and this is even today and I've [clears throat] I've felt this since last 10 12 years when probably I had very like I was probably nobody nothing
(09:48) just trying to make it and then today when I've got little success in my career at the same I have exact same feeling I don't feel different and the feeling is that every time I walk in in a room full of strangers at a networking And I feel the most superior person and the most inferior person at the same time.
(10:08) >> Yes, that was that was going to be the second tendency that I was going to talk about. Yeah. >> Who explain Okay, talk. what you said. >> Um there's like a I would say that there's at some stage in the journey often for many of these folks they both feel like there's a big chip on their shoulder that there's something to prove that there's some way that they feel like a shame that they're trying to resolve in their system is the way I would describe it.
(10:38) And at the same time they often think that they're better than everybody or a tremendous amount of people. So those two things happen and the reason that they happen is because the better than everybody which has its own service like there's some good there's some good things that result from it and some incredibly bad things but that's a protective mechanism right so they have this protective mechanism of thinking like oh I' I've got it more figured out I understand more than other people but underneath that is this constant
(11:10) >> this constant >> inferiority complex >> yeah I would a lot lot of them it's not even very conscious but there's a shame driving a lot of their behavior that like I will prove myself I will show them I will make something every I won't be able to be ignored or bullied or have someone have power over me again some version of that >> like I I won't let anyone control me ever >> and that is >> not even yourself probably >> yes >> meaning like you probably tell yourself [ __ ] to do and you don't do it >> yeah yeah I used to say that about
(11:43) myself. I used to say I'm I'm such a rebel that I can't even tell myself what to do. [laughter] I fully agree with that thought. >> Yeah. >> So that's the So this constant feeling of inferiority and superiority that I'm not enough versus I'm better than everyone, >> right? It's all >> it's like mixed something like at the same time.
(12:07) >> Yeah. But it's also the reason that it particularly works is because it's also designed not to it's to help you not that it's actually a help but it's a short-term help and it was definitely a help as a kid which is to not feel your emotions fully. So anytime we're judging other people and that means I'm putting myself above them or it means I'm putting myself below them or it means I'm even making myself equal to them.
(12:32) If I'm in a comparative mind framework with you, >> then what that means is that I am cutting off an emotional uh experience that I'm having. >> Like so anytime you judge anybody, you just have to ask like very practically you can just say if I couldn't judge this person right now, what would I have to feel? >> And you'll feel this thing.
(12:55) And and if you actually learn to fall in love with that feeling, the judgment stops. >> We'll get that in a minute. that you've written a post about it. I want to go deeper in that about the shame and judgment and that that's very interesting. So yeah, so first was self-reliance. Second tendency was inferior superior and then third tendency is what >> uh you know those are the two that I normally name.
(13:16) I don't really think about there if they're successful they're all really really smart. >> Like I don't know anybody who's in the ultra success category who's not really really smart. >> Yeah. Yeah. So let's say if you meet someone before they became successful. >> Yeah. >> What behaviors would make you go like hey I think this person is going to be really extraordinary at some point in his life.
(13:42) >> So I I think that there's a misnomer about like I don't a misrepresentation of that even that concept meaning if I'm let's just take three kinds of companies. I'm gonna run an asphalt company. I'm gonna run a AI company. And I'm gonna run a hotel. >> There are CEOs that would be wildly successful at one and horribly unsuccessful at another one of those things.
(14:14) >> Mhm. >> Right. So, high margin businesses are run differently than low margin businesses. Um, if you have if you really need to keep top talent, you're going to run it differently. And so there's definitely tendencies. So the idea of what makes you successful is I think I think is is we think that we can just get it because then it makes a nice list sickle so somebody can you know eat it up but it's not really an accurate thing.
(14:43) There are a couple things that people seem to have in common. They're obsessed with the thing that they're doing >> that they and and the obsession could be for different reasons. They're obsessed. And I don't mean obsessed in a bad way. I don't mean obsessed like I have uh like lost my family and friends because I'm so obsessed.
(15:02) I mean obsessed like their mind just tends to think about this thing. >> Yeah. >> And um so they're obs they're like constantly on this topic and they just constantly are thinking about and iterating on that on that thing. So somebody who who's obsessed is really good. People who are going to be successful quicker are people who iterate quickly as well.
(15:28) So if people think, "Oh, I failed. I failed." Then they do not do as well as people say, "Oh, what did I learn next thing? What do I learn next thing?" They might be like, "Oh, god damn it. I messed up." But they're still on to the next thing. They're still I'm going to try a different way. Those people are usually successful quicker.
(15:48) But that would be more for like media and technology. If you are a you know rice farmer, you probably don't need to iterate at that same pace to be successful. So, but generally that obsession I think is is something that's really really important. The intelligence is is something that seems to be really important and ambition seems to be really important.
(16:13) Um there's definitely people in that ultra successful entrepreneur class where they really don't suffer a lot of regret. They don't they might think, "Oh, I I shouldn't have done it." But they don't churn on that. Like they don't for like 6 months go, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have done that." Maybe they think it once or twice.
(16:36) Many of them just ignore it. They're like, "Oh, yeah. Well, okay, whatever." And off we go. Um, but that seems to be another thing for somebody who's >> like less regret. >> I mean, their brain doesn't ruminate on past issues. >> Their brain doesn't ruminate on the past >> at all. >> Very little. >> Very, very little. >> And is that the ability that you're born with or does that happen because of some kind of trauma? >> No.
(17:06) Um, it often gets enhanced just by busyness. Mhm. [laughter] >> When somebody's just so busy that they they can't do it, that it's definitely teachable. It's definitely something that you can learn. Um it seems to be directly related to how strong the negative selft talk in your head is. And so I find a lot of those folks they can either ignore that negative selft talk or they have a very particular brand of it.
(17:33) Um but the but that's that seems to be highly correlated with it. Do you think negative selft talk is one of the most common things between all the people who have >> Yeah, I think >> went like who went from zero to now probably >> I think it's the most common thing in humanity. I think it's probably just 98% of people >> but that motivates you.
(17:49) >> I think it motiv the the issue with that it's extremely dirty fuel. So like it can motivate you but if you have too much negative selft talk you're depressed. So like that's not going to work. And and the other thing is it's really ineffective. I'll give you an example. If you think about the three things that you tell yourself you should do the most, I can guarantee you you've been doing that for years and it hasn't changed.
(18:18) So you're telling yourself you shouldn't do something for years. It's not changing. And somehow I'm going to do the exact same thing again to make it change. It's a extremely ineffective way of of managing yourself. So what do you do then? Because this morning >> I was doing an exercise and I was actually telling myself two or three things that I should be changing and I want to do this in different way.
(18:43) >> Yeah. >> And right now you just said it and it's true. Since 10 years I've not changed it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> And I just keep telling myself every 6 months that hey I'm going to change it probably sometime every month. >> Yeah. So what's the want? >> You're in the should. M >> so I don't know if you want to be outright and say this is the thing I'm telling myself I should do but if if not then just what's the want there's a want beneath that should somewhere like what's the want >> so let's say I'll give you one example
(19:13) the example was let's say I need >> I should be working out every day before my podcast or before my day starts >> because >> if I do it after the my day ends >> then I'm highly inconsistent I'll probably do just twice a week or thrice a week I won't be able to do it every day Right. >> So, I want to start it.
(19:30) And I've been telling myself this since 10 years. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Before my day starts, I should be working out. >> Yeah. So, what's the want behind the I should do this >> just better for myself? Like health. >> Yeah. What's the want behind the health? What what makes you want to be healthy? >> Feeling better, looking better.
(19:50) Oh, >> so I want to feel better. >> Yeah. So, you get in touch with wanting to feel better, not telling yourself you should work out. H So if you woke up every morning and you were like, I have 30 minutes to feel better and my whole job is to do whatever I want to do that will make me feel better today and I'm going to experiment.
(20:14) I'm going to try this today and this tomorrow and this the next day. That would be extremely motivating and a great way to change your routine. But if you on the other hand, the way you'll do it is you'll say, "I should work out." And then almost guaranteed, >> putting myself out on a limb here, but I'm I'm very confident.
(20:36) Uh, [laughter] and then you work out and at least twice in the workout. And probably at the end of the workout, you didn't work out quite enough. You didn't go hard enough. At some point, you didn't. So, so now I'm beating myself up to go work out, which doesn't make me want to work out. And then I work out and I beat myself up while I'm working out.
(20:53) Like who wants to sign up for getting beat up like three times in an hour, maybe 20 times in an hour. And then and then you're finished and you feel good for a while, but after a very short period of time, you tell yourself, I should have done I should be doing that every day, which is beating yourself up again. So, >> and I should have gone harder.
(21:11) I didn't go hard enough. >> Exactly. So, it's like taking a horse and you want to teach it how to jump and every time it jumps, you just hit it. [gasps] Like, but why would that work? That doesn't make any sense. >> But why do we do that? >> Uh because our parents did it to us. >> Explain. Go deeper in that. Because >> because what you said, you just you're showing me a mirror at this [laughter] point >> and I have no shame in actually, you know, admitting this because this is bang on.
(21:38) >> I do that every morning. I get up and I was like, I should be working out >> the first thing >> and then when I work out, I'm feeling bad. And after working out, I was like, I know that I had like these 10 extra push-ups in me or like five extra pull-ups in me. I still didn't do it. I'll be doing that from tomorrow and tomorrow I don't even work out.
(21:56) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As as opposed to I'm going to work out every morning cuz I want to. And what's the way I can enjoy the [ __ ] out of working out the most? [clears throat] If every day your whole job was to wake up and go, how would I enjoy working out today? Maybe it's pickle ball. Maybe it's weights. Maybe it whatever.
(22:16) I'm going to my whole job is to make working out just a little bit more enjoyable every day. Like if that's your perspective, then you'll find a 100 iterations on how to make working out more enjoyable. >> So you feel this this logically is making sense, right? >> That the moment I wake up and if I optimize for >> I have 30 minutes to feel better, I'll do whatever just makes me feel better.
(22:43) I'll probably end up doing way many like I'll be more creative with the things that I want to do. >> Yeah. Right. >> Do you think that works and stays on for this change stays better >> if you don't make it a should? >> Yeah. Most people will make it a should. >> You know, they'll turn that that'll work for a couple weeks and then they'll be like, I should do something to make myself feel better and then it'll stop working as well.
(23:06) >> What's the difference want and should? One is telling yourself you're bad and you should be punished and one is telling is trusting your inherent nature. Like I have no doubt if I if I put you in a room and I said you can't work out, you would be pissed and when I said finally you can work out, you're like thank God.
(23:32) And you would go work out. Like I have no doubt that that's something that is in you natively. As a matter of fact, I would argue every time you think I should work out, at that moment you actually have a want to work out at that moment. Exactly. You had a desire to work out come up and you turned it into a should.
(23:54) >> And you said this is because our parents did it to us. What was that? >> Parents did it to us is not quite the right way to say it because then we're blaming our parents and like >> But you said it like you said something similar. Yeah, exactly. So, it's it's basically it's how our parents taught us that we were going to be motivated.
(24:15) So, our parents often said you should do this, you should do that. Like, if you want me to love you, you have to do X, Y, and Z. Why could why the guilt you're disappointing me if you don't do X, Y, and Z, right? Most and so we mimic that or we or another one, this is a great one.
(24:37) So, this one's like the most and I'm going to probably read your mind again a little bit. Um, when parents when we're not doing what our parents want us to do, typically they call us selfish. >> Yeah. >> So, if you think about all the times you were called selfish as a kid, how many of those were because you just weren't doing what your parents wanted you to do in that moment? >> It happens even to the day.
(25:02) >> Yes. Right. Right. So now we call ourselves selfish. >> Yeah. >> But we were never selfish. We were kids trying to get our needs met, >> but we were labeled as selfish because that's what we were told. And then we have this guilt. And now we're like walking through our lives feeling like we're selfish >> instead of trusting our wants.
(25:26) Like here's another thing. Just like I know that you want to work out, I know you want to care for your parents. I know you want your parents to love you. >> I know you want to love your parents. >> Yes. >> I know that you would sacrifice a tremendous amount to keep your parents happy, healthy, and safe. >> Absolutely >> right.
(25:46) And nobody has to call you selfish for that to occur. As a matter of fact, if nobody called you selfish, it would happen more. Cuz who the [ __ ] wants to be around people who's calling you selfish all the time? Nobody does. But there's this always this guilt if I do something that I want. >> Yes. >> There's always this guilt inside that >> maybe I'm doing this for selfish reasons and I'm selfish for doing this.
(26:12) >> Like great. >> Why great? >> Well, so if you started this podcast for selfish reasons and you're helping 18 million people, fantastic. >> Yeah. >> I love it. Great. So, there's this the weird thing is is there there's this um I would call it a ridiculous notion, but it takes a while to see how ridiculous it is >> that if you do what's absolutely best for you, it's not what's best for everybody.
(26:45) >> And this is so this is so good. I love this ridiculous thing that you said. Okay. >> Majority of the times when we think that if I'm doing something for selfish reasons, I'm actually doing it bad for the like I'm doing bad to others. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And why do we feel so? Because this majority of the people I know they feel like this.
(27:06) >> So the so the thing that's happening is it's not that you're acting selfishly that creates that. It's that you're scared that you are going to be punished for acting selfishly or you're scared that you're acting selfishly. So when our mind enters fear, we go into binary thinking.
(27:26) We go black, right? Yes, no, good, bad. That's what our brain does. So if you're wondering when you're scared and you don't have a you're not in touch with your emotional system, then you'll know it because your brain your brain does a couple things. But one of the things your brain does on fear is it starts doing binary thinking, black and white thinking.
(27:47) So the fear that arises that oh I'm I'm hurting other people. It comes from a binary thinking of selfishness is bad for others. >> Interesting. And this subconsciously I've been trained to do that >> by being called selfish a 100 times a million times. And it can be either in school or by my parents or environment around me or anything at all.
(28:10) >> That's right. Yeah. And then once it's trained in you, then you're then you're like really susceptible to it. So like if I want to manipulate you, I'm just going to call you selfish. I'm going to do it. >> That is so true. >> Yeah. I mean, you'll most likely date somebody like that, get married to somebody like that, unless you actually do the work to change it [snorts] because it's what it's what you wired with love. Love came with guilt.
(28:40) >> Yeah. >> So, you will find a marriage that has love with guilt. Damn, I saw that face. [laughter] Yeah. Which is painful for them. to guilt trip somebody sucks. Try it. Like, try it out. Guilt trip me. Try to guilt trip me and enjoy yourself. Just try. I'm just at this point I can't think anything at all because you've hit a nerve which is I'm thinking about so many things in my life and I've been this way and it's ridiculous.
(29:15) >> Yeah, it's ridiculous. Tell me, tell me the most selfish thing you've ever done and you that you can talk about on air that you at the time you thought you were so deeply selfish for doing it. >> Just left my left my city and my family in my home. >> Mhm. >> To start my podcast in a new new city. >> Okay. >> And in India, it's very uncommon to leave your family home.
(29:44) >> Yeah. >> To start alone and live in another city. So everybody looks at you as you're selfish trying to build a career alone where and leaving your parents and family behind like you don't move out of your parents' house. It's very >> uncommon to do that in India, >> right? So you look selfish. >> How many people how many parents in India sacrificed everything to send their kids off to America 20 years ago to get an education? >> They do that even today.
(30:13) >> Yeah. So, were were the kids selfish for listening to their parents to go and get an education to take care of their parents? So, you're doing the same thing >> to build a better life. I did the same thing. Yeah. >> Same thing. That's what they they wanted their kids to build. They sent them off to do it.
(30:30) What's the difference? How is that how is that? >> But there's this selfish guilt even today. >> Yeah. I understand there's the guilt, but I'm still asking you logically, how is this different than parents sending their kids to a college? >> It's not. Yeah. [snorts] Right. >> I I [laughter] >> Interesting. This is This is >> It's [clears throat] just habitual habitualized right now in you.
(31:00) I don't think you could do anything that feels good in your system and not on some level think you're being selfish. >> Yeah. and not be guilty afterwards because I always feel like >> because I'm doing this, >> I'm leaving something else or not focusing on some other part of my life or someone else in my life and then I'm I'm guilty that I'm not able to actually serve them.
(31:22) >> Which means you're always in a position of guilt cuz you can never actively be taking care of everybody all the time, >> right? >> Wow. This is I didn't think that the podcast is going to go this way. [laughter] you know, we'll [snorts] get there. Like, let let me let me internalize it a bit. I want to change gear a little bit.
(31:45) >> Okay, but hold on. Before you do that, I want to say something like which is I've seen that you know, you're up and coming in the podcast world. You're like you're like a rocket ship and I'm and I I'd seen like one or two episodes, but like I I see what actually makes that the case now.
(32:03) Like what's actually here is like your your your like your sincerity and your your your desire for the truth is more important than your So this is good. You're not letting this in. I'm giving you a compliment that's authentic and you're protecting yourself. >> How do you know that? >> I see it. >> How? I was just trying to be just I I was listening to you.
(32:28) >> I know. But I was right. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Yeah. [sighs] So, so like you're like deeply authentic and sweet and you care. Then that's what makes you successful and all the while you're telling yourself that you're selfish. >> Like imagine what happens to your podcast if you actually embrace the fact that you are sweet and you care and you care more about learning than you care about prestige.
(32:58) Like that's exceptional. That's rare, especially in the podcast world. But >> is it so? Isn't that everybody's learning? >> There's a difference between learning and making that learning more important than >> everything else. >> You're sitting here willing to admit to what you just admitted to in front of all these people for the sake of learning.
(33:24) >> That's rare. That's rare. >> Thank you. Yeah, [snorts] >> thanks for letting that in. That felt really good. [laughter] >> It was very hard for me to let that in. >> But I was like, if I don't do that, I'm going to be shown another mirror and another volume. [laughter] I'm like, I'm not you.
(33:44) You've already stuck a chord. And I love that. And I I'll ask you about how to change it. And >> I'm going to do that because >> at this time there are like two three open threads in my head. >> Just changed it. You just let yourself feel it. That's how you do it. >> And be okay with it. >> Yeah.
(34:04) And then soon it's just deeper and deeper. It just feels >> But I want to go to the guilt part. >> Okay. Yeah. We'll get there because that's like something but but two threads, okay, at this point. So one was about where we were talking about >> the arrogance and self-doubt. >> Yeah. >> And the other was the love and the guilt part. Okay.
(34:22) So we we'll go to both of them. I don't want to leave any honest and you have written a post around this >> post >> I think self-doubt imposter syndrome arrogance all of this come from a same insecurity or something like that >> yeah so in all of them there >> but how is arrogance and self-doubt the same pattern aren't they two different things >> um self-doubt it's the same way that anger and passive aggression are the same pattern.
(34:56) >> Right? So, let's say I have an emotion moving through me. It's called anger. And let's use that as like a tube. >> Okay? >> And that tube is anger. And I kink the tube this way and it looks like this nice pen. [clears throat] And if I if I crank that tube in a different way, I'm like, I'm not angry. And if I crank it in a different way, I'm like, you son of a buck.
(35:23) All of that is anger twisted in different ways. And if you have no anger, not no anger, if there's no twist and the anger is just moving, then you have this clarity and determination of a Gandhi. That's what anger looks like if it's not twisted. >> Like because a heart is still involved. It's still like an openhearted expression of that emotional state.
(35:45) >> Yeah. >> And so if I don't feel good about myself, maybe I protect it by being arrogant. They literally they have to cut off their emotional experience. They like you'll see arrogant people, they'll have a chin up and it's because they can't feel as much with a chin up and their jaws are often tight.
(36:02) All of that is to stop the emotional experience of what's happening or they're in self-doubt, which is indulging the same experience in a different way instead of just like being with the shame. Oh, I can just actually just be with the shame. And there's like and and when you do that, you find a truth to it that's amazing.
(36:24) Like one of the things that people come up with is I don't deserve this. You're [ __ ] absolutely right. Of course you don't. Nobody does. What are you talking about? Like we came out of the the birth canal not deserving life. Like yes, correct. Right. So c can we just experience this as lucky, blessed, fortunate? Can we just be grateful for it? Why why do we have to deserve it? No, since nobody does, right? And so so if you don't in take that shame and try to protect yourself from it or indulge it as I'm no good, that I'm bad, then
(37:07) you can actually just experience the reality of it and then it changes. that shame changes and shame itself is meant to kind of it's like the backwater of emotional experience. Shame is what stops people from feeling stuff. So you're telling me that the arrogant person and the self the person who has a self-doubt they both are feeling shame.
(37:36) One is just protecting it. >> Correct. And the other is the other is running away from it. Is that >> it's >> both are protecting but >> I would call maybe like indulging that would be the word I would use. >> One is protecting by just be like over compensating for it and trying to look pretend. >> Yes. >> And the other one is like beating themselves up.
(38:00) >> Right. So >> but both is shame. >> And why is this shame? Well, that's an that's an infinite question. [laughter] Let me let me let me let me go back to the just for a second that that there's a piece. So, when I was sitting there with you and I was giving you the compliment, I'm going right at the shame. Your capacity to actually feel that compliment and allow that compliment in is like right at the shame.
(38:28) Then we're actually in the shame. We're feeling it. We're in that moment with it. If we're saying, "Yes, I am bad. This is horrible. I did this wrong. Then there's really you're not actually feeling the shame. You're you're like indulging it, but you're not actually feeling it. And if you're arrogant, you're not feeling the shame.
(38:47) So, can you actually just like be deeply with the shame? And then that's what changes the pattern. >> But why do why do people have this shame? >> Oh, yeah. So, there's this great quote. I don't remember who said it, but the biggest gift we can give to our children is that teaching them they can be safe to be themselves, but that's not what happens.
(39:11) Kids cry and somebody says, "Boys don't cry. It's not that bad. Feed them a lot of sugar so they stop crying. Can't get angry. If you get angry, dad's going to be even more angry. You can't be scared because you'll get hurt if you're scared." So that we get told we can't be certain ways and and that's where the shame comes from.
(39:35) >> But then this this is a very normal human experience for almost every kid. >> Correct. >> Almost everybody must be going through certain kind of childhood trauma trigger or just an experience where they've been shamed or they've been told that it's good to be that way or not to not good to be that way. >> Probably have done it to themselves as well. Correct. Yeah.
(39:57) Like bunch of reason but all of us in some shape and form we must have gone through it at some point. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> So then when everybody's going through same experiences. >> Yes. >> Then why >> larger and greater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But then why some people have an abnormal need to win and some people are just comfortable being average? I've never met anybody comfortable with being average.
(40:27) I've met people who acquies to being average. I meet people who think who tell themselves or are tell themselves that, oh, I have a different priority, but I've never heard anybody really just be like, I'm really cool with being average without some level of shame in their system. I've just never >> Aren't there some people who are just like very >> Yeah. They're okay with where they are.
(40:52) They're not ambitious. They don't want to do something. They're like >> That's different than average. >> Yeah. I'm not talking about people who are like very happy and satisfied. I'm talking about people who just don't want to >> they're not satisfied yet they're not ambitious to do something with. They're just angry about themselves and their lives and they're angry about politics and people around them and just like >> that >> and they stay in this is in this middle of it >> and they don't want to come out of that
(41:17) >> that phase that they're stuck at. >> Correct. Okay. that that there's definitely they might want to. They might not think that there's a way to, but I will assume that there are some that don't want to. Yeah, most people are in that are like people don't change. There's no real way to transform like that.
(41:37) They have stories that hold them in place. And but I think underneath that is there and it's the same one here too which is like there's an identity that is that people are scared to let go of deeply scared to let go of and in your particular position it's a really interesting one because not only when you want to change your identity is there the thing that goes with everybody like who will I be and how will I act and who will I love and will I will people still be able to relate to me but there's also will my audience of whatever it is 18 million
(42:07) people stick with me. They they want they know me to be this kind of a person. If I transform, will they still want to be here with me? So, it's a really interesting thing. So, I think a lot of those folks, they have an identity that where they that they can't see through the identity. >> So, they're stuck in that.
(42:25) >> Yeah. >> But nobody you you feel nobody wants to be average. Nobody's comfortable. >> I don't think anybody really wants to even be stuck, >> but they are. >> Yeah. Cuz they if you notice those same people are constantly fantasizing about a different life. >> Yeah. And they're always looking for an escape. >> If I have Yeah. Exactly. That's right.
(42:46) >> For the weekend, for the party, for the >> for some sort of drug, alcohol, or some vacation. >> But your judgment of them is your same judgment for yourself in that experience. >> What do you mean by that? >> They like >> a I'm not judging. I'm just making and giving >> There wasn't a little bit of judgment.
(43:05) >> No, no. I'm just giving an example to make it uh >> I'm just thinking about two different people in my head. >> There is the one kind of people like one side. They are like they always want to escape and they feel like I want to be out there somewhere working somewhere. I don't like my husband or I don't like my wife.
(43:26) I should be with someone else at some other country in some other some other vacation and some with some other kind of alcohol and drug. Right. That's one side. >> Tik Tok or whatever. Yeah, whatever. Tik Tok or Instagram. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> Then there's other side. >> Yeah. >> Which is like highly super ambitious people.
(43:43) They're also escaping their current reality. And they're like once I become big, I'll get better. Once I become X million or billion dollars, I'll get better. Once I get this feeling that I've saved the world, I'll feel better. Whatever. >> Once I'm enlightened, I'll be better. Once I meditate enough, I'll be better. >> Yeah.
(44:00) Like [clears throat] both are like >> Yeah. >> different ways, but >> correct. One is wanting to be right where they are. >> Yes. >> And one wants to always be like be the number one, be the biggest. Like the the you talk to them and you feel like >> whether they're doing it or not. >> Yeah. >> But they they the words come out of their mouth is very ambitious.
(44:26) >> Yes. >> So what's the difference between people who are super ambitious versus people who are not? if everybody's going through the same kind of experiences. >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, you're basically saying what makes shame drive some people into stagnation and drive some people into movement.
(44:43) >> Yes. >> What is the difference between those two? I think there's definitely one, but it's not the entire story. One of them is the amount of shame. So if you're beating yourself up all the time, then you're generally moving into the depression area. So there's whether it's low-level distia and if you go into the DSM which is the psychological literature and maybe it's not the most recent one but the one before and I don't know what the current one is but um they define that as excessive negative selft talk.
(45:22) >> Yeah >> that's what they call it. So >> PDD so they that leads to PDD permanent uh depression disorder. Yeah, it's so I don't know the answer to that. I assume that that's the case, but there's definitely ways out of that. So, but oftent times that's what's happening is that that negative talk is just so high >> that it's [clears throat] creating it's creating stagnation.
(45:48) So, if the anger, the way I see it, that's on the intellectual side. On the emotional side, it means all of their anger is going towards themselves [snorts] instead of their anger going >> outside >> outside. So the way I think about transformation in humans is this framework is important if you if you for me to understand it.
(46:07) People try to transform on the on the intellectual level, on the emotional level and on the nervous system level. But you need all three to guarantee transformation. >> Wait, what do you say? Emotional level. >> Intellectual level and nervous system level. So intellectual level would be prefrontal cortex very human.
(46:26) Um the emotional level is emotions. It's mamlian. It's the way mammals make it's it's the way we make decisions. We can go into that. Um and then there's the nervous system level which is more reptilian. And if you are wanting transformation, you like finding a way to transform all three is what consistently changes behavior.
(46:49) And so most people know I should work out, but they're not working out. Means that intellectually they get it, but they haven't gotten it emotionally and they haven't gotten it in their nervous system yet. Or somebody can emotionally say, "Oh, I like I love being nice and kind, but that guy's an [ __ ] so I have to treat him mean.
(47:08) " They haven't seen through the thought yet. >> And so, so to have transformation, it needs you to guarantee it, it's all three levels. Sometimes you get lucky and there's only one level left and you undo it and you get the transformation. But if you want consistent change that's you have to address it on all those levels.
(47:27) And so when you have depression intellectually it's changing your self-t talk. Emotionally it's moving the anger outwards. Not I'm not saying getting angry at people but allowing yourself to express anger in a way that's safe. Not at people but not at yourself. And the nervous system level it's allowing yourself to actually feel pleasure.
(47:46) So that because pleasure tells a mammal that you're safe that you're safe if you're feeling like pleasure. And so you have to do all three of those things if you want to move out of low-level dysmimeia. And so so if you have too much of that then those people are usually far more stagnant. >> Interesting.
(48:10) And the ones who are like they're into movement and they're ambitious. >> Yeah. They haven't internalized the shame the same way. >> Yeah. So there's usually less of it. There's usually less of a shame. And then another factor that seems to be pretty significant is they were told they were lovable if they achieved >> nice. But can it >> you have to be of value to me for me to love you as your mom or dad or school or whatever.
(48:38) But your achievement is what makes you valuable. And so that's another thing that they had that >> right. And then I'm sure there's some inherent pieces to it as well. But >> so they have achieved something in their life which they love so much that their identity becomes that achievement is equals to my value >> and then they get addicted to that achievement and they keep they they want more and more and more and more.
(49:02) >> That's right. Yeah. You got straight A's so we going to we're going to love you for a couple >> days or you did >> something and we're going to like that's what makes you valuable. >> Yeah. happened with me. I've been there. Yeah. It's like >> till till I was 16. I was this average kid. Not I was this invisible kid in the family because all my cousins and my siblings, they all were like super intelligent.
(49:29) Uh always coming first or second in class and they're like topper straight A and I was this D E student. >> Yeah. And after school I did once I studied and I got like B and I became all of a sudden like everybody paid attention to me and they all appreciated me so much. >> Yeah. >> And since then this became an addiction that hey there was one point one hour in my life where I was not invisible.
(49:58) >> Right. Right. >> Everybody in my family saw me, everybody appreciated me. I became that star and that that B became better than straight A's of my >> right >> all my cousins. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. >> And then all I wanted to do was just win my >> get like my parents attention by achieving something.
(50:17) >> All you wanted was the love and attention of your parents. >> You found a strategy. >> Yeah. And then I started achieving and then >> that it started with parents then it went to the society then friends and then bigger and then bigger and it just became an addiction that if I achieve then people value me. Yes.
(50:34) >> And then I wanted to keep achieving. >> Yes. Right. >> And that was that unfortunately that's a hungry ghost because unless you actually like allow that appreciation in like you just did then it never is satisfied. H I'm still working on it. But there was there was a big point >> in my life when I was 24 where I I started shifting >> and started not attaching my self worth with achievement.
(51:03) But I'm still not there yet. >> Yeah. >> It it'll take some time. >> But yeah, so the if you if you actually want that usually people are scared if I give that up then I'll stop achieving which is nonsense but people typically think that. But if you really want it, like it's a very easy thing to transform quite quickly. And it's actually acknowledge and allow yourself to feel really good about the things that you've achieved.
(51:32) I am the quickest podcast. I'm the quickest growing podcast in the history of the world. And like let yourself feel it the same way you felt that compliment. >> It's very difficult. >> Yes. Right. And so that you that is you asked the question earlier. You said how could it be that arrogance and not like allowing yourself to feel good about things or telling yourself that you're bad about things are the same thing.
(52:02) If you deeply let that in, if you deeply let in your accomplishments and feel good about them and say, "Oh yeah, I've really done some amazing stuff and it feels good." both the arrogance shrinks and the I'm not good enough shrinks. >> Here's here's a question and this is a personal question. >> Yeah, >> I'm sure a lot of people have >> and don't and by the way don't trust me on that.
(52:31) Do it just do it like for a week one week experiment. See, here's a question on that. Why I I feel something about it, right? >> I believe the reason why I'm super ambitious >> Yeah. >> is because I have this this feeling of I'm not good enough. >> Yeah. >> If I start feeling normal >> and I don't feel inferior in the rooms that I walk in, >> Yeah.
(53:01) >> I will stop being hungry. Yeah. >> And probably my ambition will die. Like can I not be miserable and ambitious at the same time? I don't think so. [laughter] >> Then you can't. >> I'm just asking that's that's a >> you don't think so you can't. >> But have you gotten this question before that? Do you think that >> how am I doing it? >> You tell me how >> how did Gandhi do it? Gandhi was far more ambitious than you and far more at peace with himself.
(53:40) >> How can these >> far more satisfied? How could they not? What makes you think love is not ambitious? Love is one of the most ambitious things. Love is not satisfied with loving one thing. >> True. >> Yeah. It's like it's it's hardcore ambitious. >> Yeah. >> So you you're you're telling the moment you start shifting your focus from achievement to loving things shift like I do this because I want to achieve more or I do this because I love it more.
(54:21) >> I'm Is that the difference? >> That's a good question. I'm I'm I'm not I haven't thought about it that way. That's not the way that I think about it. I think there's this great, it's an old film. It's called Comedian. >> I love this film. >> And they, Unfortunately, it's got like Bill Cosby in it, but there's a comedian and it's uh Jerry Seinfeld and he's in the middle of his career.
(54:48) Cosby's in the end of his career and there's this young guy who's at the beginning of his career and they follow all three of them around and at some point the young guy is complaining. my friends are all more successful, blah blah blah blah. And Jerry looks at him and just like laughs and says, "If you can do anything besides be a stand-up comedian, you should absolutely do something else.
(55:12) " Like [laughter] you if you can't if you could stop, stop. And it that's more of the thing I'm saying like there's a trust in yourself that comes when you realize that your your nature is ambitious. >> And it doesn't need this fuel of I'm not good enough. >> Interesting way to look at it. >> And you see it in CEOs.
(55:37) You see this and the way it expresses is as follows. somebody is being a CEO so that they can get rich and so that people will respect them and somebody else is being a CEO because they're missionoriented. They're like I want to and it doesn't really matter what comes after that sentence. It could be I want to be the best in the game.
(56:00) I want to you know have the biggest yacht. I want to save humanity. I want to be the creator of something. I want to put a dent in the universe. It doesn't really matter what the thing is. But if they have a mission, that mission makes it so that they don't burn out. So if you look at a CEO who burns out and a CEO who doesn't burn out, one of them is missionoriented and one of them was oriented at success.
(56:32) And and so and and part of the reason for that is because if you're focused on your mission, you're not focused on yourself and there's less shame. >> Nice. >> So it's just a cleaner fuel. Like I mean I would bet you I would bet you whatever I would bet you $20,000 that as the the as you drop this idea of you're not good enough you will be more ambitious and you will you will bite out off more than you can che you'll you'll do even more.
(57:07) I see it so consistently with the CEOs I work with. >> Nice. >> Less shame, more success. There might be a moment or two where they're like, "Oh, I need a break." And they they pull back because they've been like running on dirty fuels for a while, but it doesn't last long. I mean, unless they've been doing it for like 30 years, then it lasts a long time. Like, it lasts a year or two.
(57:28) >> Interesting. That's a That's a good way to see things. And because we're talking about ambition, do you think can ambitious be manufactured or are some people just born hungrier than others? I think everybody's ambitious. Like it takes ambition to play a video game for eight hours a day. Like I couldn't do it.
(57:56) >> Me neither. >> I could like just I would I would be >> Yep. I can't. >> Yeah. It So there's there's like So the question is like where is your ambition pointed? M >> and a lot of the reason that the ambition is pointed in places that are safe is because people are scared of a feeling of rejection.
(58:17) People are scared of a feeling of failure and people are scared of a feeling of great success. Both of those two things are very scary for people because both of them destroy their identity. >> I'll give you a great story about this. I have a a a a hair had a haircutter um great human being >> and he's an artist and I went into his I got my haircut at his house and he has all this art >> and I said are you selling and he was like nope I'm like I'll give tell you what I will give you $1,000 >> if you can get 50 rejections in two
(58:54) months and he couldn't because he got into three galleries and he was too busy painting. And so, but all that was was the reframe of every rejection is a success instead of every rejection is a >> failure >> is a failure. So, if you have a lot of self- abuse, >> then you take those failures as reasons that you're bad >> and so then you can't then you're like, "Oh, I'm not a good artist.
(59:25) " Right? Your identity changes. But if you have a lot of success then well what am I trying to do? What am I trying to accomplish? Like why do I need even more of this? All that is also questioning your identity. And so for people it's really scary. Both of those things are incredibly scary. >> And tell me one one reason for each.
(59:48) Why are people scared of failure? And why are people scared of success? >> They're both scared of it because it destroys their identity. It destroys who they think they are >> and how have they formed this identity. >> Yeah. Again you most of it's in childhood and then you know what's happened since that point. >> Some story.
(1:00:07) >> Yeah. Some story. Some story that they have. This is the kind of person I am. And it's the same when I complimented you. >> And my I'm I'm pushing your identity. I'm I'm questioning your identity. your identity is I am not quite successful enough yet. And I was going, "Yeah, really, really? Is that your identity?" And it kind of tickles and it kind of hurts and it's kind of scary, but that's that's what I'm doing.
(1:00:36) >> Yeah. >> That's why when I'm coaching people one- on- one, I'm like you can see them like on YouTube is I'm so effective because I'm I'm going right to the identity. M >> I'm not messing around with the >> And why are why is everyone so scared and so uncomfortable the moment we challenge their identity? >> I saw it in me.
(1:00:59) I like right now like >> I was more >> I was very open to the idea of love and guilt because it it was striking a chord and I could think about some patterns >> but I got really uncomfortable the moment you complimented me. >> Right. >> And that appreciation made me more uncomfortable. >> Yeah. and and you spot it out because somewhere in my head the identity is I'm not enough.
(1:01:21) >> Yeah. >> And the moment you trouble that, >> right, >> it it's uncomfortable, >> right? Yeah. I it's it's a interesting question why that's the case. I think that that our number all of our thoughts this is a guess, right? But all of our thoughts rely on one thought >> and that thought is I. All the truth to your thoughts, all the lies of your thoughts are based on that concept of I.
(1:01:55) And we never really particularly investigate it. But if that idea of I starts dissipating, the Zen call it zenickness. the the there's such a fear that comes up and arises and everybody I've ever met where that sense of eye starts disintegrating there's just like this tremendous amount of fear because everything relies on that thought meaning if I'm different will I be loved if I'm different will I be able to love if I'm different will I still be able to make money if I'm different how will I grocery shop and you'll see this like
(1:02:28) we'll have people come out of our retreats particularly the in-person retreat and they'll go to the grocery store and they don't know how to shop anymore or they're like, I I used to eat this, but I was eating that so I could like not have to feel [ __ ] Now I don't know what I actually want to feel if want to eat because I want to actually feel and they're in the grocery store and they have no idea.
(1:02:51) And that's scary for people. They want consistency. They people in general, you know, often prefer safety to freedom. M and how can somebody find out who are they? Like who am I? >> Yeah. >> Are there like couple of questions that I >> You want you want to play a game with me on this one? Of course. Okay, cool.
(1:03:13) So, >> I'm going to ask you what you are essentially and you're going to answer. I'm going to ask you like five or six or seven times in a row. >> Wow. [snorts] Okay. >> And your job is to answer it differently every time. The words don't have to make total sense, but it's what you are essentially. Meaning, it's what you've been from the moment that you were born till right now.
(1:03:37) It's never changed. It's never been hurt. It's always been here, right? Because if it's you, then it couldn't have gone away. So, it can't be something like I'm angry or I'm sad or I'm ambitious cuz there's moments you haven't been. >> And it can't be something like a son because that could be taken away from you.
(1:03:54) >> True. >> Right. your parents will be gone and then you won't be a son anymore. So the question is the very essence of what you are that can't be touched, can't be changed in your lifetime. That's what you're answering >> and I'm going to ask you like five or six times. >> Wow. Okay. Yeah. >> I'm I'm going to try >> try. Yeah.
(1:04:12) >> I because >> half of the things that you said you've like shed out the words which I was already thinking. >> Yes. Right. >> I can't. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Okay. We will try. >> Okay. So all those things are what we like to think our identity to be. So what are you essentially use your whole body not just your head? >> I I love playing.
(1:04:41) I don't know what that means. >> So what you are essentially is playing. >> Yeah. >> Just >> great. >> A gamer. I don't know. [laughter] >> So your job is just to answer with like one or two or three words. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, what are you essentially? And you're you said playing. >> Great. And then I'm going to ask you again.
(1:05:02) What are you essentially? >> Curious. >> Curious. Great. >> Because I I was playing like 500 things. >> No more. Just curious. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then what are you essentially? So, what's happening right now in you is there's this big spaciousness that's opening up. >> Like it gets quieter. there's like more we call this like a 404.
(1:05:25) There's like this like system air. Your brain isn't like coming up with the quick answers, right? And that's that is like that's what you are essentially. So just go into that spaciousness for a minute and then like what are you essentially >> and what I've been since I was a child >> ever always >> like almost >> in every phase in every area of my life >> in the moment of pain in the moment of pleasure in the moment of failure in the moment of success what are you essentially >> figuring out I'm always like even in pain even in Yeah,
(1:06:10) >> enjoy. I'm I'm just like, okay, why is this happening and what is this? And then what? >> But there's [snorts] definitely moments where you're not trying to figure it out. >> Very rare. >> Yeah. So, what are >> always like finding out >> then what are you then what are you in those moments when you're not finding out what's what is the essence of who you are? So this is the inquiry.
(1:06:43) This is this is the scary inquiry. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because if it if this part of you if you identify if you understand that part of you, you can't ever be destroyed, right? Like there you are success, failure, whatever. You have this like deep level of consistency that you can come from and identify with that can't be taken from you.
(1:07:07) This podcast can be taken from you. Your parents can be taken from you. This can't be taken. >> So trying to find out this this these words these things. >> I ask that question to myself 10 times a day for a decade. >> Yeah. Because it's so difficult to think. It's beyond thought. >> Yeah. >> But you were experiencing it.
(1:07:34) >> It's very difficult. It's uncomfortable. >> Yes. Cuz that's beyond your identity. >> Yeah. >> That spaciousness that opens up. >> You've just I've not even started a podcast with you. You've given me three things to think about right now. >> And my goal usually from the podcast is to take one thing and think about it.
(1:07:55) >> During the podcast, I'm going to think about three things. [laughter] That's it. >> I'm sorry. >> It's okay. I I love that. I I I think we we love doing this. A lot of people will be thinking with me about [snorts] their own lives. So, it'll be it'll be interesting to see, >> right? >> Do you feel a lot of people who have this identity about themselves that they're intelligent? Um let's say a lot of forget identity for a while.
(1:08:21) >> Yeah. because it's [laughter] taking me. So like I would say like why do some highly intelligent people >> Yeah. >> they live [snorts] or spend their entire lives >> performing below their potential. >> Yeah. So they did a study. It was a while back so I don't know what the stats are today.
(1:08:51) So I think this was study was done in the 90s um where it [snorts] was kids with IQ's over 135 which is like less than 1% >> and 49% of them were failing in high school >> failing in high [clears throat] school >> 49% were failing in high school. [clears throat] So nobody really I've never seen a study that proves why I have my theory as to it.
(1:09:23) Um, so they did another study that shows that if you have a kid and you tell them that they're smart and then you give them a test that they can't figure out and then you tell them that they failed and then you say, "Well, you're going to do the same test next time." They don't try as hard >> because it sorry, [ __ ] with their identity of being smart.
(1:09:47) But if you tell the same kid, I really appreciate how hard you tried. I really appreciate the effort that you put in there. They'll actually try harder. Because one identifies with being smart and they don't want to disprove it. And one of them identifies with effort. So, I think a lot of people who are really smart either were told that they were stupid and so they don't know they're really smart or they're trying to not break the identity.
(1:10:17) They get to believe I'm smart if I don't fail and so they don't fail. >> So, what can somebody do today if they've been told they were smart and they've stopped trying? Uh, a great one for this is whatever it is that you want to do, sit down and come up with 15 iterations of how you're going to do it.
(1:10:42) And your job isn't to get it done. Your job is to get through the 15 iterations. >> Why would you say so? >> In the brain, there's a thing called the habenula. And the this is loosely talking, but the habenula basically prevents vertebraes from making the same mistake over and over again in quick repetition.
(1:11:04) So if I am a bear and I fight you for dominance and I lose, it's probably a good idea for me not to fight you again right away. Or if I eat a mushroom and it sucks, I it's probably good for me not to eat a mushroom again. But the way this works in modern society is it makes you like you're on a diet and you eat the chocolate cake and you're like, "Screw it.
(1:11:24) I'm off the diet. [ __ ] it." Because you failed and you're not supposed to. So the concept is changing your idea of failure into an iterative process. And so there's a study that shows that women, I think it was women, but maybe it was all populations of people who were under the poverty line or at the poverty line who um lost weight successfully, all of them had an iterative mindset.
(1:11:50) If you're in dot world, the companies that are successful are the ones that have an iterative mindset. There's no failure. There's just what's the experiment? How do I learn from it? What's the experiment? How do I learn from it? It's when you set up a stake of like, oh, I can fail that then there's this opportunity for failure.
(1:12:08) So, it's the same thing that I did with the barber. It was like your failure would be not getting the one or $2,000 that I promised you, not getting rejected. I just switched the failure frame. >> And that's a really great way to do it. And I see that happen all the time. The other thing to do, which we've already touched on, which is really useful, is how do you enjoy the process as much as possible because if it's not inheritive inherently rewarding, we're less likely to do it.
(1:12:37) >> Two questions on this. First is give me a step-by-step framework like exact things. How can somebody build an iterative mindset? So you don't have to build the mindset, you just have to feel the success of it. So the best way to do it is to line up your iterations in advance. So let's take your gym one for instance, right? >> So you're like, I I want to work out and feel good in the morning.
(1:13:10) >> I'm going to come up with 15 ways that I think I could work out and feel good in the morning. And every one is like potentially a way to feel even better than the last one. and I have these 15 things. >> And then I wake up in the morning and I get to pick from this menu of 15 great things.
(1:13:32) And then if you do that, you'll start noticing that you work out more. It's more exciting. You feel better. You feel better about working out. And then you're more likely to work out. And then you're like, "Oh, this iterative mindset is really cool. Works works well." >> Yeah. >> But the job is to make it like you're just constant.
(1:13:50) You write the list before and you make it clear that it's completing the list is if you don't complete the list that's the failure. >> Interesting way to put it. And there's there's some truth to it. I've done the time where I was the most consistent with my workouts was the time where I was playing a lot of sports and a lot of different sports.
(1:14:11) >> Yeah. you're enjoying it >> and I was loving it >> because you have like you might not have gotten you might not be a school learner, right? But you're clearly a learner and and clearly you like a puzzle and a game like these are things that turn you on and so you were playing multiple games and learning multiple things and you were that that's what worked out for you.
(1:14:32) >> Yeah. >> Right. instead of this idea that your mind has that it's like going to the gym and doing the same weight training is somehow going to keep a mind like yours occupied. >> Yeah. >> It's not going to not going to be rewarding. >> That is true. And because I was playing let's say squash then I was doing boxing a little bit.
(1:14:50) >> Yeah. And then sometime would just go for a run with my friends. And then because I would do all of this by the fourth day or fifth day I like hey you know during the squash like my stroke was not powerful enough so let me now go to the gym and build a explosive. So it was it became like a game and a puzzle to solve that >> I wanted to get better at one thing and then another and and just >> Right.
(1:15:13) And so there's probably another thing that you were doing that improved it is doing it with people. >> Yeah. I can't do it alone. >> Yeah. And so when you're going to the gym, are you going alone? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No wonder it's not working, [laughter] >> right? Because you're so busy on the this is what I should do instead of this is what I want to do.
(1:15:30) I want to work out with people. I want to play games. I want to win. >> Great. Use that. >> Nice. So the way to build it is find out 15 different ways and then finish the 15. >> Yes. >> And then >> and make sure each way is more enjoyable than the last. That's a good nuance. Yeah. Because >> Yeah. 15 boring ways to do something.
(1:15:53) I won't be able to make it to 15. >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And this can go for >> everything. >> Everything. The way you want to speak, if you want to learn how to >> build a startup, Yes. >> raise fund, get rejected, sell. >> Yes. >> Anything at all. >> Exactly.
(1:16:10) If you if like, so for instance, I have to make 20 cold calls so that I can sell something. >> Okay. I am going to figure out 20 ways to contact people and see if this if my product's a fit. And each one has to be more fun than the next. I have to enjoy it more than the next way. Which are you betting on? >> The second one. >> Of course.
(1:16:33) >> Yeah, exactly. >> Of course. Because >> I can have like 20 openers, >> different openers, and then one of them will work. >> And because it's a game like in between five or 10, I can just around a little bit. Exactly. That's right. [laughter] Yeah. [gasps] And you don't beat yourself up and it's you're learning and you're playing >> something.
(1:16:52) >> And a lot of people don't do this because >> they're they're thinking about of embarrassment that if they play beyond their identity, they'll be embarrassed because a lot of other people will judge. >> That's right. Or they'll judge themselves even worse. >> Yeah. How can you stop judging yourself? Every time you judge yourself, ask yourself, what would I have to feel if I couldn't judge myself and feel it? It's just that simple.
(1:17:23) >> Give me an example. Be more concrete. >> Give me a way you judge yourself. >> For not working out. [laughter] >> How do I judge myself? Like >> for not being there for your parents. What would you have to feel if you couldn't judge yourself for not being there for your parents? What's the emotion that you'd have to experience? Where's your judgment now? Just the thought of feeling it.
(1:17:59) Just the beginning of feeling that emotion and the judgment's gone. >> Mhm. But is it is is it wrong that when I'm being selfish and doing something of my own? >> Mhm. >> And I and [clears throat] if I'm not judging myself in that moment, >> you still haven't given me >> I'm feeling free and I'm enjoying. >> Yeah. >> Is that wrong? Because I'm enjoying >> what what would make it wrong? What would make enjoying yourself wrong? You have a child and you got to choose.
(1:18:38) They were going to be an accountant and they were going to be in the top 5% of accountants >> and that was going to be the case >> and you got to choose. They enjoy their life or they don't enjoy their life. What are you choosing? >> Enjoy their life. Of course. >> Yeah. And are they if you enjoy their life, are they less likely to be an addict? >> Yeah.
(1:19:03) If they enjoy their life, are they more likely to be successful? >> Yeah. Even if they're not in traditional terms, I'm happy. >> Yeah. >> Because in their own heads, in their own eyes, they'll be successful. >> Yeah. >> Are they more likely to have a happy marriage? >> Of course. >> Are they more likely to raise good kids? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
(1:19:21) So, is it bad for you to enjoy yourself? [laughter] >> You're putting me on spot. I love it. I love it, though. So my handle in Twitter is [ __ ] you Joe Hudson. It's f you Joe Hudson [laughter] because a lot of people at this moment look at me and go [ __ ] you Joe. So >> feel free. [laughter] >> You you wrote something that that get me to that was around shame.
(1:19:46) >> Yeah. >> Let me read that post. You know that was one of the most most in like hard-hitting post that I read of yours. Okay. >> And and we go deeper on that because we're talking anyway about internal shame and judgment and stuff like that, right? >> It's you read somewhere. Okay. This is >> you can tell how much internal shame someone has by how judgmental they are.
(1:20:11) The other way to see this is you can tell how much internal shame you have by how judgmental you are. Every judgment you make about someone else is pointing to a part of you that you're still rejecting. >> Yes, >> that is exactly why the things that bother you so much are oddly hyperspecific. The lazy person triggers you if you never allow yourself to rest.
(1:20:37) And the needy person triggers you if you learned as a kid that needing was unsafe. The work isn't to avoid shame or to improve yourself to be better. It's in following the shame and rediscovering the part that wasn't welcome. >> Yeah. >> Bang on. >> Yeah, it's a good one. >> And and I this line gets me every time I read this that the needy person triggers you if you've learned as a kid that needing was unsafe.
(1:21:06) >> Right. So that's the self-reliance thing that we talked about earlier, right? Can't can't need. Why? When I get triggered, when somebody is getting triggered. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Actually, let's divide into three parts. Let's say >> how can you if if someone's judging someone? >> Yeah. >> They're only doing this because they're ashamed of something.
(1:21:36) >> Correct. >> Always. >> Correct. I I haven't seen it any other way. >> And judging themselves. And if someone's judging themselves for something, for not working out, for not being there for their parents, there's some shame there. >> What is triggering people so much >> that >> that it becomes second nature to judge people for something they are not good at? Like you know how >> I've seen a lot of people, >> they get triggered if someone else shows off.
(1:22:06) >> Yeah. >> Because they have this longing need to be seen in a certain way. Yes. >> And that's why they're judging someone else for showing off. And that's that's always there. I've seen it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Great. Perfect example. >> So, and it triggers them. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> So, as a kid, if there's something that you natively want, you want to have fun, you want to play, you want to show off.
(1:22:31) All these things are natural for kids, right? There's no little boy who hasn't sometime in the age of 5 to seven shown off. like it's just natural. But if you got judged for doing that, if you got shamed for doing that, if you were made fun of for doing that, then this part of you is trying to stop that from now on.
(1:22:55) And then if you try to stop it, one of the way that one of the it's not only just the way, but one of the symptoms of stopping it is the judgment. The other one is actually a constriction of your musculature. M >> so you can actually see the way people constrict their muscles like what they allow themselves to feel and not feel right.
(1:23:18) So I'll give you an example like this thing here that I'm doing with my shoulders that's a critical parent hunch. If you see people with this thing it means that they had a super critical parent and there's certain things that they're not going to feel and so you can actually see it. In Ayurvedic medicine, they talk about the line that happens right here, which is repressed anger, right? This facial expression of I'm constantly skeptical is repressed anger.
(1:23:45) And so, so one thing you have to do is judge. One thing you have to on the intellectual level to constrict this emotional experience that we're having because we're not allowed to play. We're not allowed to show off this emotional thing. We have to intellectually judge emotionally. We have to um on the emotional level, we have to muscularly hold our emotions.
(1:24:06) And a nervous system level, we have to think we're unsafe and we have to protect ourselves. We we armor up the way you armored up a little bit when I complimented you the first time. I'm going to like armor that up. And so those are the symptoms of not being able to have that emotional experience. >> And so that's where the shame comes from.
(1:24:30) Like that's the that's the experience that we have. That's where the trigger comes from. That's more >> that's one one emotion. That's one kind of feeling. Shame. There can be any number of negative feelings. And this >> positive ones too. >> Positive ones too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I dare you to walk into a restaurant and just like laugh to yourself for 5 minutes.
(1:24:53) People will be far more upset with that in New York City than if you're like crying. >> Really? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I think a lot of places around the world. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> If you're laughing by yourself like how how uncoot. >> Exactly. [laughter] What's wrong with that guy? Yeah.
(1:25:19) >> That >> Yeah. >> Why? It's the same whatever emotional experience we weren't allowed to have. >> Right. Calm down, Johnny. Don't be so excited. You're bothering me with all that excitement. Don't like just settle down. >> Yeah. Do you have trouble I'm asking you, do you have trouble trusting people who are internally excited all the time? >> I've never met anybody who's eternally excited all the time.
(1:25:46) I have no problem trusting people who are generally excited. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That's >> my experience is that all the emotions kind of come and go. My trust rises with somebody if their emotions like come and go freely. What I would call emotional fluidity >> and my trust decreases with people when their emotions are like very contained and they don't allow their emotions to flow because th those are the people who can justify their actions much quicker.
(1:26:12) explain emotional fluidity and explain how can you be more trusted as a human being. >> For me, like I trust more. So, um I say it this way that um joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome. So, if somebody has deeply experienced joy, then they know where it comes from.
(1:26:37) and it doesn't come because I got the extra $2,000 out of the deal or because I stole somebody's jacket or something like that. Whereas people who are like not emotional don't have that access to joy. They think that their happiness is going to come from winning the thing or getting ahead or something like that.
(1:26:57) And so what I notice is people who have uh a hard time being able to feel all their emotions just can justify their behavior easily. And there's actually well there there's some there's some there's some um studies that have shown similar things, but I I I I don't have them fresh enough to quote them, so I'm not going to. Yeah. [laughter] Okay.
(1:27:23) >> Yeah. I want to be accurate. Yeah. >> Yeah. This takes me to because you're talking about feeling emotions and negative and positive. Because of emotions, you you have certain problems in your life, right? And there was a guest on my podcast who said that every problem that you have today with your partner >> Mhm.
(1:27:44) >> are the same problems that you have had with your parents. >> Yeah. >> Is that true? >> Pretty accurate. Maybe not every but >> most of them. >> Most of them. And [clears throat] why why the problem that we have with our parents are the similar kind of problem that we'll have with the partner. >> It was the same thing that we were talking about which is if you had guilt wired with love >> then you're going to find a lover who guilts you.
(1:28:14) If you um learned that guilt was married I'm sorry love was married with yelling then you're going to have that experience. And so and and it's actually really it's really intelligent. It's like really really really intelligent. So the way I think about it is this, like we're a cell that's trying to get back to homeostasis and you have an experience as a kid and in your kid in as an experience in a kid, you feel like you have to earn love by being valuable and but the the cell knows that that feeling of valuess should doesn't isn't determined on on doing something that
(1:28:52) your native nature is to be valuable that you're valuable just being there. And in a and in a marriage, that's exactly why, you know, you should be valuable because you're here with me. That's the value. But you don't get that. So what you do is you keep on finding people who tell you that you have to do things for them and you keep on thinking I have to do things for them to keep them happy and then you take responsibility for their happiness and they're never entirely satisfied. And so there's this like this
(1:29:23) thing happens again. And that pattern will repeat until the moment that you actually let the he the cell get back to homeostasis. Until the moment that you can recognize the value that you hold just by being you. Then the pattern doesn't need to repeat itself anymore. And when the person guilt trips you, you go, "Oh, like, uh, I really see that you want me to do this thing.
(1:29:53) I really see that it's important to you that I do this thing, and I don't want to do it. So, how do we both be happy? You not having me do it and me like, how do we be happy with both of us living in our truth instead of bending for one another?" And then the pattern changes. For me, the the experience of this was my dad was an alcoholic and so there was a big emotional abandonment in my life.
(1:30:18) And so everywhere I went, there was emotional abandonment. And what happened was the people would emotionally abandon me or I would sense it and I would do one of two things. One, I'd be like, "Yeah, you anyway." Or the other one would be, "Oh, please no. What can I do? How can I like that's what I did when people emotionally?" And it turns out just like in all these situations, this anyhow makes people emotionally abandon you.
(1:30:47) And being needy makes people emotionally abandon you. So I was creating the thing in the exact way I was trying to avoid it. And then a moment came in my life where I was like, "Oh, what what's so wrong with this emotional abandonment? Like what is it exactly? Like why why am I so [ __ ] scared of this thing?" And so I started investigating it.
(1:31:09) And we have this is we have a tool around this called emotional inquiry that people can get for free and and I would like start deeply trying to experience the emotion that I was having. Like what is it like to be emotionally abandoned? Like why am I so scared of this? Can I just step into it the way you would a workout? You know, like >> Yeah.
(1:31:31) like and and the moment that I could be like, "Oh, I don't I I I look forward to emotional abandonment again." Because every time I'm feeling it, I'm learning something about myself. Every time I'm feeling it, I'm getting an unlock. Every time I'm feeling it, I'm less scared of it and I'm acting more like myself and not like you or please, please, please come here.
(1:31:51) And and then I couldn't wait to feel it. And then the pattern stopped because the entire pattern was built about me not trying to feel this one emotion. And if you think about how many decisions you've made to not feel unloved or to feel successful or to not feel like a loser or to feel like you like are valuable, whatever it is, it's like 80% of your life.
(1:32:16) >> Yeah. And how do you break this toxic pattern? So the just the way I described it, which is you you use whatever methodology, emotional inquiry is a great one to go into the experience of the emotion instead of run away from it. So you're about to pick up a phone to scroll TikTok. There's an emotional experience that just happened that you don't want to have.
(1:32:45) Okay, I'm going to do this thing so I don't have to feel this. go into that feeling, learn to love that feeling, and you won't scroll on TikTok anymore. That's that's the thing. And so, but when you go to feel the feeling, the trick isn't to I'm feeling the feeling to drop Tik Tok cuz that won't work. It's to literally have a gamer's mindset of what is this feeling exactly? Where do I feel it? What makes it so scary? How does it move? Where is it in my body? like what does it look like from the inside of it? What does it look like
(1:33:21) from the outside? It's literally to have like a an a one a mind of curiosity and play with the emotional experience. >> Tell me a stepby-step process how to feel emotions. It's different for everybody because some people have learned to cut off their emotional experiences entirely and some people have have much more access to feeling their emotions.
(1:33:49) So, there's lots of frameworks that we use. Um, if you really don't understand your emotional experience, the first thing to do is just learn how to feel your body because all of the emotions happen in your body. They don't happen. The brain has a side effects, but they don't happen in your brain. to happen in your body.
(1:34:08) >> Okay, explain more. Give me an example. >> I'm This is a little bit uncuth. How would you tell me? >> When I'm done pooping. >> How do you know when you're done? Did you measure it? >> Okay. How do you know when you're done? >> That's just feeling of >> it's done. It's I'm satisfied like my body knows it. >> Yeah.
(1:34:40) Yeah. So that's where that's how you understand emotions. The same way you understand when you're done it's like it's in your body. It's not in your brain. There's no there's just like oh this is the experience I'm feeling. So a great exercise to start off with if you have like no emotional access is to 5 10 times a day go what's the experience in my body right now? What's the how do I how do I feel in my body right now? That's a great like first step.
(1:35:09) What's this experience? And then patterns start to be recognized. >> So in the book, The Body Keeps the Score, he talks about people who are physically abused. And you can put like a key in one hand and a quarter in another hand without telling them. And they can't tell you which is which because they've cut off the sensations of their body because of the abuse.
(1:35:32) Similarly with emotions, there are people who were told emotions aren't safe. So they just cut off understanding the emotions. So that can be like a very really important first step. >> So no matter what you're going through, ask yourself after that experience, where do I feel this in my body? >> What just what does my body feel like right now? >> And then >> and then it turns into where am I experiencing it? What does it look like? How does it feel? How does that feel different? And some at some point it's really
(1:36:03) important to be able to name the feelings and at some point you can't name the feelings like that it's all that all moves over time but the main thing is to really feel your body and to start noticing like where your muscles are contracting and a lot of it happens in this core area. A lot of it happens you know from like the just basically your core from the bottom to the top is where a lot of the constrictions happen for emotions.
(1:36:29) >> Gut. gut. A lot of people feel it in the gut, >> chest, throat. >> And what happens once I start asking myself the question that how does my body feel at this point? >> And I ask myself this question 20 times, 30 times every day for >> for a while. >> For a while >> and then I start probably feeling it. >> That's right.
(1:36:51) Then you start having access to the feelings and then the job is to be really curious and go into those sensations. >> And what do I do next? and you find out that everything you're scared of feeling is actually kind of awesome. [laughter] And this the reason that this is so important. Okay, in 200 12 I think it is there was a book called Dart's error >> by a neuroscientist >> and basically what it he talks about and it's now been proven before I think even there is that we make all of our decisions in the emotional center of our brain. You have never made a logical
(1:37:24) decision in your life. Neurologically speaking, if I took out the emotional center of your brain, your IQ would stay the same, but your ability to decide what color pen to use would take like 20 or 30 minutes >> to know because we make emotion that it it's that's our decision-m center. It's not logic.
(1:37:46) We're using logic to try to figure out how we're going to feel. >> There's an exception to this. The exception is like if you see a snake, then it doesn't go through the emotional center. It goes just into the nervous system and you just jump out. So there's a shortcut if you're in physical danger, but otherwise we're where do we have restaurant? By how we want to feel.
(1:38:04) Where where are we going to eat? By how we want to feel. What do we say to our boss? Because what we think we're going to feel by saying the thing to our boss. That is that is neurologically how it works. So if you want really clear decision making, it's being really happy feeling any thing that you want to feel. So you have always been willing to feel failure and so you've done a thousand experiments, you've tried big things, you've taken big swings and here you are.
(1:38:45) If somebody was like failure, I can't feel it. Cuz every time I felt failure, love was removed. Every time I felt failure, I got punished. Anytime I failed, like I will not feel I was always criticized. I had to be right all the time. They're not going to they're not going to feel failure. And so they can't do what you've done.
(1:39:04) As soon as they can fall in love with failure, they're like, "Cool. I can't wait to feel failure. >> I can't wait to feel emotionally abandoned. I can't wait to feel valueless, to feel I have no value whatsoever. I can't wait for that experience. Then what used to be this many options becomes this many options.
(1:39:24) >> Nice. I I do feel I do like failure. >> Yeah. >> I I find out new ways to fail. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you could that's that's one of those things nobody how can you like failing but because you do you have all this success >> it's so it's it's so contradicting >> so contradictory right >> everything that you do is because you want >> you want to fall in love >> you want to play the game you want to be best in the game >> and yet all you optimize is for a new way to fail Yeah. Yeah.
(1:40:05) Right. Yeah. So like it's the same with a marriage. >> You know, if you are always trying to feel in love in a marriage, your marriage is going to fail. >> If you I'll give you an example of this. My wife and I, we've been married for 20 28 years now, I think. And um and our wedding vows, what I said to her is like, I'm not vowing to stay married to you.
(1:40:32) I'm vowing to just do whatever it's required for us to be happily married. Like I don't stayaining married doesn't matter, you know? >> And so we've been married I've been married to probably five, six, seven different women in that time frame. They're all my wife, but she's been different. I'm different, right? We're like, she's not the woman I married and she's and I'm not the man she married.
(1:40:54) And so in this framework, what h in this time frame, what happens is that there's moments where I don't know how we're going to do it or she doesn't know how we're going to do it. And so the first thing we'll do is we'll grieve the end of the marriage. Like we're let's just assume that the marriage is over and we cry and we grieve and we lose.
(1:41:13) And then when we come together, we're not scared of that anymore. And so we can be ourselves. I'll be me, she'll be her. And then we'll find a way that we want to be together and support each other in that time rather than I'm not going to say the hard thing to her cuz she might get mad. Rather than I'm not going to like say what I want cuz she might leave me.
(1:41:33) >> I'm going to be honest and I'm going to be true because I'm not scared of the result. And if you look at someone who's trying to make a really hard decision, all that means is that they're scared of the result. They're and they're scared of the emotion that will happen as a result. My boss will fire me and I will feel like a failure.
(1:41:54) What [snorts] if what if someone has forgotten how to feel emotions? What if they've gotten emotionally numb and they don't understand the things that you're talking right now and it feels like alien to them? >> Have you heard of emotional amnesia? >> I've never heard of emotional amnesia. Oh, so it's a it's a term which a lot of young people are using now.
(1:42:16) >> Mhm. >> That because they're so overstimulated and overwhelmed >> and they've seen so many things in their life. >> They've been through a war. They've seen pandemic. They've seen their parents' marriage getting >> they've seen people constantly >> they're comparing themselves with people on social media.
(1:42:36) There's always someone younger who's more successful than there like all sorts of emotions everywhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because of that, they've forgotten how to feel emotions. So it's like they feel something and they forget completely the next morning because every real, every TikTok is making them feel something different.
(1:42:56) So all of these things when you feel so much and because you've felt so much and every minute is changing, >> you've forgotten how to feel deeply and have this feeling for a long time. That's what emotional amnesia is. That they've gotten numb now. >> Yeah. >> I was like, I don't feel anything anymore because all the things that I wanted to feel, I felt it and it's done.
(1:43:14) Like, I don't care. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like hell. >> Yeah. >> It sounds horrible. >> But a lot of people are going through this that they've stopped feeling certain things. >> Yeah. So, >> forgotten emotions. >> Yeah. So, I particularly like the trauma response, PTSD. There's definitely like there's some stuff I am not going to feel because if I do it's going to all come back to me.
(1:43:37) So I definitely know about that particular one. I definitely also have seen people who have overstimulated themselves into a set of numbness. But the there is no moment that we're alive when emotion isn't happening. Numbness is an emotion that like that that is an emotional state. You can describe it.
(1:43:57) You can say like in my body the numbness feels like like near the skin and kind of in the middle of the body and like there it's an it's a it's an emotional experience. So there's no you can't be consciously awake and not having an emotional experience. So, I like the term, but basically like I've been my emotional system has been so overstimulated.
(1:44:19) It's like I've been using porn and so like now I don't get turned on because I've jacked off 20 times a day. Like I like I get the the thought process, but there it doesn't mean that they're not having an emotional experience. Yeah. So, but what's probably happening is there's certain emotions that when they come up, they're just trying to avoid them as quickly as possible.
(1:44:42) >> And so, they're doing it by stimulating themselves with movies or Tik Toks or whatever. >> So, what are the most what are the three most important feelings to feel if somebody has forgotten just in the over stimulated world? Yeah. The problem is that if you tell somebody that they're supposed to feel a feeling, that slows down them feeling the feeling.
(1:45:06) So, you'll see people come into our courses looking to be able to feel sadness. And the more they try, the harder it is for them to feel sadness. And as soon as they like let go, that's when the sadness actually moves. >> And so, the the three most important are the ones that are the first three to come up.
(1:45:24) Those are the [laughter] first the most important ones to come because >> it's a human experience. What do you think? what are the three emotions that >> so typically the way it works is that depends on the culture um and if you're a male or female in the culture anger and sadness are going to be one of the first two then the other one's going to be the second the third one is going to be fear and then the fourth one is going to be peace or joy exuberance ecstasy and they're just as hard to feel as the as the other ones.
(1:46:00) So like if we're doing one of our retreats and we're moving anger, I'll watch people move anger for like 40 minutes and then we'll say like, "Okay, let's start um feeling some pleasure." And everybody will be checked out inside of like 2 or 3 minutes. [gasps] >> What emotion do you think secretly is controlling people? >> The the deepest one is shame.
(1:46:23) That controls people. But any emotion you don't want to feel is your boss. Period. End of discussion. >> M >> if I if you don't want to feel a thing, then it is going to drive you into addictive behavior. It's going to limit your decision-m power. >> So you said judgment. Okay. Let's let's talk about three.
(1:46:45) Judgment is equals to shame. >> Yeah. >> The other big one is overthinking. A lot of people can't decide because they're all they're overthinking. >> That's that's also avoidance of an emotion. What kind of avoidance is that? What what are they trying to >> So they can't they can't make a decision. They can't make a decision because there is an outcome that they don't want to feel.
(1:47:02) >> So feel that outcome. They'll make the decision. >> And hard decision. Same >> same. So the the interesting thing about decision-m so right now today in this conversation how many choices have you made? >> Hundreds. [snorts] >> Right. None of those in my terminology. None of those are decisions because you never really thought about them.
(1:47:26) They just happened. >> Yeah. >> Now there's this something we're going to call a decision. And that means I'm going to sit down and really think about it and squirm on it and like write SWAT analysis on it and I'm going to like should I do it? Should I not do it? As soon as that happens, then you're you have fear in the system.
(1:47:43) You're scared of an outcome or there's no need to have like that kind of rumination. Maybe maybe think about it for a minute or two, but like that deep kind of rumination. you're scared of a particular outcome and the outcome because we know this neurologically is an emotional outcome. So, oh, how do I make sure that I'm not homeless? As an example, >> but if I was to tell you, hey, you're going to end up homeless and but I guarantee you're going to be happier and more satisfied and your life is going to be more meaningful than any other moment
(1:48:12) of your existence and it's going to last for like 10 years. Like, how scary is being homeless anymore? So we're really trying to avoid an experience of like say helplessness when we're trying not to be homeless. And so that's kind of the that's what's that's what's going down. >> But when when you know >> okay that [clears throat] >> you've understood the underneath trigger the emotion that you're trying to avoid.
(1:48:42) >> Yes. >> Let's say pick up a larger one that rejection. Yeah. >> A lot of people are trying to avoid rejection and they they know about this. >> Yes. Yeah. But every time they avoid it, it makes the pattern stronger. >> Correct? >> How avoiding it already creates rejection too. We call this like the golden algorithm.
(1:49:00) >> Okay. >> I am going to reject. I'm going to fear rejection. So what do I do? What do I do if I don't fear if I fear rejection? >> What do I do if I don't >> a human I'm sorry. A human that you know is scared of rejection. What do they do? They not do they don't do anything at all. >> Right? So then they reject themselves.
(1:49:26) >> Everything that we do to try to not feel an emotion invites that emotion >> to us. >> Give me more examples. I This is rejection. >> This is rejection. Give me an emotion that you don't that you don't want to feel. >> No, let's pick up the the larger ones. >> Okay. H rejection can be one. >> Yeah.
(1:49:49) [clears throat] >> Um what what can guilt can be one >> right? Okay. So I don't want to feel guilt. Therefore I am going to do what? What do you do when you don't want to feel guilt? >> Try to compensate and give time to that person with whom you feel guilt about. Okay. [laughter] So, you're going to betray yourself to try to take care of somebody else.
(1:50:24) >> That creates guilt. >> Yeah, >> that's one example. There's other examples for guilt. >> Let's do another example on guilt, right? So, another example on guilt is that um I feel really guilty, so I'm going to go and take care of this person, but in the back of my mind, I should also be taking care of this other person, this other person.
(1:50:43) So then you'll feel guilty about them as well. It's literally every action you take to try not to feel away. Anger is a great example. Usually people who are not trying to feel angry, they get passive aggressive. >> Mhm. >> Right. Which pisses people off which makes them more angry. You know, >> they're angry at themselves, not to the world, >> right? Because they're trying to suppress their anger in front of the world and then inside it's eating them.
(1:51:11) I'm trying not to have emotional abandonment. So, I'm being needy, which brings down emotional abandonment. >> Or I'm being I'm being like, "Fuck you. I don't care about you anyways." Which brings on emotional abandonment. >> What about freedom? >> What about it? >> Freedom as an like a lot of people want to feel free.
(1:51:29) They don't want to be they don't want to feel stuck. >> Yeah. So, the the algorithm works when it's an emotion you don't want to feel, not an emotion you're trying to feel. >> Yeah. So if there's >> you don't want to feel stuck. Let's say stuck being stuck is an emotion. >> Yeah. So if you don't want to feel stuck typically what do you do? [snorts] Somebody's like I'm stuck.
(1:51:54) What do I do to not feel stuck? >> Do the things that you're not doing. >> So those people don't feel stuck, [laughter] >> right? What what those people do is they say, "Okay, I'm going to really try hard and I'm going to do it. I should do this. I should do this. I should do this." That's what they do and then they do what you did with exercise in the gym.
(1:52:18) >> Would you call this? You said, "Sorry, you were saying something." >> Yeah. I'm just saying the people who feel stuck, what they do is they tell themselves they really should do it, which makes them feel stuck, and then they do it for a little while, but they're beating themselves up, so they quit, so they feel stuck.
(1:52:32) >> Like the example of the gym. >> Yeah. Yeah. Would you call this emotional freedom? When you actually identify an emotion and you try to feel that and you like will that be the emotional freedom because you have like seven stages of emotional freedom. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, if you are happy to feel every emotion that's coming through your system, that's emotional freedom.
(1:52:58) And it leads to a tremendous amount of joy and really great decision-m. >> What what >> and a lot less addiction. But how can you go from being emotionally stuck to feel and have an emotional freedom? What are these seven stages? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, see if I can memorize. I'm not sure if I have them all memorized, but I can give you generally what it is.
(1:53:16) So, the first thing that happens is we're a kid and we feel all of our emotions naturally. >> Okay. And then the second thing is we start having to like stop having certain emotions because our parents are you can't have that emotion, you can't have this emotion, you can't have that much of that emotion. Right. >> Yeah. Exactly.
(1:53:37) Then we go into this management experience where we're trying to manage the emotion. I'm going to not be angry. I'm going to not be sad. But all that does is repress it and like creates physical constriction. And then there's the experience of, okay, >> I'm going to, oh, wait, there's another one back in there. There's the I'm totally controlled by my emotional experience, which is like I'm angry and I'm yelling at you and I'm like, uh, and at some point that's so painful that you start trying to control the emotional experience.
(1:54:06) >> And then once you are finished trying to control the emotional experience, you're like, okay, how can I allow myself to feel the feeling without taking it out on anybody? This is where the kind of the emotional fluidity starts happening. where you're just like, "Oh, I can actually feel these things.
(1:54:22) I can be angry, but I don't have to yell at you. I can just go be angry and then I can come back or I can see, oh, my anger is a boundary that I need to draw or it's a determination that I have." And so, you're not controlled by it anymore. You're allowing the experience, but you're not being run by the experience. And then these emotions start flowing through you, and they they stop being so distinct from one another.
(1:54:46) There's like a joy in all of the emotional experiences. like feeling like we've all most of us have had a cry where it feels so good. We're like, "Oh, that was such a good cry. I feel so much better because I cried." >> A lot of people have that experience. How could they be enjoying crying? Well, it turns out you can enjoy being angry.
(1:55:05) You can enjoy crying. You can enjoy all the emotional experiences cuz it's just sensations moving through your body. If we can enjoy working out, if we can enjoy a deep tissue massage, then the emotional sensations in our body we can also enjoy. And then when that happens and there's just like this love and this very a lot of ease in your decision- making.
(1:55:27) >> I don't know if I've if I being if I enjoy being angry. I I enjoy crying sometimes. >> It's it's very relieving. It's it's good. >> Yeah. So is anger. Anger is so relieving. Only when it's professionally done. >> Only when it's professionally done. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, I mean >> like when I'm when I'm angry at my work.
(1:55:48) Yeah. >> And it makes me better. It's great. >> It's great. >> If I'm getting angry in my personal life, that's sad. And then that takes me the loop of being feeling guilty and then the same thing comes over. But what what makes someone emotionally weak? And especially when someone looks super confident from the outside, what makes them emotionally weak from the inside? >> It's that they're not willing to feel their emotions.
(1:56:16) That's the like they're scared of their emotions. I'll feel everything, but I won't feel I won't feel like somebody making fun of me. I won't feel demeaned. I won't feel dismissed. I won't feel >> What do you feel? control, certinity, trying to just, you know, have everything according to their way, ambition, all of these things make people weak.
(1:56:45) I don't use the word weak. The the thing is I I feel the word it's like more of a damage. But yeah, are they going to accomplish less if they need to be a complete control freak? Yes, they're going to they're going to accomplish less. >> But aren't like all the people that you work with at some point they were a control freak? No, no, >> many of them, but not all of them.
(1:57:04) >> Like a lot of ambitious people and the top 1% people are control freaks, right? >> They they have this likeility. >> How do you have 10,000 people working for you and control all 10,000 of them? >> They are controlling of certain things that they want to be controlling of. >> Yes.
(1:57:24) everything else they're like like there's this unique ability to not care about almost like 99% of the things and then 1% you're like such a control freak that even somebody breathing in a wrong way disturbs you. >> So I'm like that. I like I have a you would call it a I would don't call it a control freak because it's just a st I just call it having a standard >> but like there's a certain um like we have principles [snorts] that we live by in our company.
(1:57:56) >> Yeah. >> If people aren't living by the principles I am I have no patience. >> Right. Our principles are things like everything is an iteration and connection or open the drawer. So if like one of our principles is if there's a problem, you talk about it. You don't keep it to yourself. And if I find out somebody hasn't, I'm very like direct.
(1:58:17) I'm like, I I've lost confidence in you because it's very clear that this is our thing. And so it means that either you're in the wrong place or something has made you unsafe. Either one of those completely unacceptable. So how are we going to fix this? Like I'm very clear about it. I feel like there's a difference between that and being a control freak, which is like I'm going to micromanage you and I need it to be exactly at this line and this decimal point or whatever.
(1:58:45) There's no there's no like constriction in my system. There's just certainty. >> I just know that that's how I want to live. I I know I'm not going to accept anything less than that. You know, the same way that I like am not gonna lie to somebody in a business transaction. I just won't live that way.
(1:59:07) Like like it's just the cost is way too hard. It's the same way that I'm not going to like live in an apartment where though I love Tulle the band. I'm not going to be listening to Tulle at level 10 like 8 hours a day. I'm just not that's not a choice I'm making. >> So it doesn't feel like control. There's definitely what I would say control freaks that but at some point that control has to be broken for them to succeed because at some point you can't scale with being in control in the same way.
(1:59:40) >> There's definitely some CEOs that are just like they come in and they're like this is how we're going to do it. And there's some CEOs that figure out how to get the wisdom of everybody in the room to figure out how to do it. And both can be successful >> because both have certain level of standards that they want everybody else to >> Exactly.
(2:00:01) >> work at or perform. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So you can have high standards. >> Yeah. >> And you just frame it differently. >> And it's internally held differently. Like I can have high standards and I can but I don't have to like be super tight about it. And some people are super tight about it.
(2:00:21) But even like Goldman Sachs where there there's like not one person running it, they have a standard. You have to be really really smart to work there, right? They're just not there's not going to be a diversity of intelligence at a high level of diversity of intelligence at Goldman Sachs. There's going to be other kinds of diversity, but not that >> that's another just a standard >> because there's there's a specific way and standard, too.
(2:00:44) >> Yeah. Is Uber a control freak because it's like fivestar ratings and you can't cheat people or is it just this is the system that we've created that we're operating in? >> Yeah, >> that's standard. >> Yeah, exactly. [clears throat] >> So, and let's say somebody was not operating at the highest standard. Okay.
(2:01:06) >> And they got humiliated. >> Yes. >> So, what is the fastest way to recover >> from humiliation? When you get humiliated, >> feel the humiliation all the way through. It means humiliation controls you. Like if you want to do anything great in this world, you will not do it. If you're scared of being humiliated, you have to like give me one person who's done something great that 20% of the population doesn't hate.
(2:01:44) like it's just you just humiliation is critical. >> How do you tell your brain to be okay with being humiliated, being rejected or made to be feel small? >> Yeah. So, if you're making a decision and you're scared of humiliation, the question that you can ask yourself that's like outside of feeling the emotion, but the question that I always ask myself is what's the what's the decision I would make that I'd be proud of no matter what happened? Most people when they're making a decision, they're trying to figure out
(2:02:13) what the outcome is going to be. And I only think about what would I be proud of? Because if I make decisions that I'm proud of, I have a portfolio of decisions, like a portfolio of investments. I don't need everyone to work out. I need a majority of them to work out or some of them to work out a lot and a whole bunch to fail.
(2:02:34) But like I have a portfolio and if I'm proud of the decisions I make, then my life will be a life that I'm proud of and the people I find to work with me are going to be people who want me to be who I am rather than want me to be different. >> But if you're sitting there saying, "Okay, if I make this decision, will they be happy with me? Will I get this thing? Will I?" then you're going to you might get it all right, but you're going to end up in a in a life that's not built for you.
(2:03:05) It's built for somebody else. >> But let let's let's take it one level deeper. >> Let's [clears throat] make it even more difficult. And that when >> forget just rejection. >> I just by the way love your brain. Like it's pretty awesome. You're you're like how do I break the model? [laughter] It's it's so cool. You're just like, "Okay, well, let me see if I can crack it.
(2:03:30) " [laughter] It's so cool. Sorry. Go ahead. >> Yeah. >> I just think like that. I don't know. >> Such a It's such a joy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. >> I'm enjoying too. It's amazing. [laughter] >> So, I was talking about that. Okay. Forget just rejection. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Think about let's make it more difficult like that when when when >> when everything in your life is collapsing.
(2:03:52) >> Yes. >> Your relationships are not working out. You don't have money. Reputation >> is >> out of the way, out of the window. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Everything at this point feels like a failure. You're just the lowest end in your life. >> Yeah. >> How do you train yourself to feel calm and then come out of it? >> Don't feel what you're feeling.
(2:04:20) And why would I want you to feel calm? and will probably want you to feel sad and grief and scared. >> Then isn't that bad? Because >> the way >> that's transformation that's why transformation happens. Like in in America, I don't know how it is in in in where you come from, but the like you see people get divorced here a lot. 50% of our marriages are divorced.
(2:04:52) You see when people are going through a divorce, if they feel all the sadness and the [ __ ] and everything like that, you see that they transform and they're better people at the end of it and they have better relationships. And you see the people who don't feel it, who stuff it and like I'm going to just keep it together and they just repeat the same marriage.
(2:05:15) >> Isn't like >> or or they stay alone. It gets worse. But isn't like the neurons that fire together wire together. So if you keep thinking about it, then you're technically training your brain to just feel [ __ ] >> I totally agree. But you just you had a distinction. You just said if I keep thinking about it.
(2:05:36) My thought process, what my experience has been when people are constantly thinking about they're not feeling it. [snorts] >> Difference. Rumination is is is trying to suppress an emotion. >> Tell me a difference between thinking about a sad situation or a worse situation in your life versus feeling a worse situation.
(2:06:00) And >> when you're thinking is bad and feeling is not. >> So I don't thinking or feeling are bad. I think >> thinking about the same thing over and over and over again wires your brain. I don't I'm not calling that bad or good. I just think it wires your brain. So if you feel something, often times we're ruminating because we don't want to feel something.
(2:06:24) The same way that we're judging cuz we're not kind of feeling stuff. Cuz what we're actually doing in rumination is judging ourselves over and over and over again for the same [ __ ] Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? It's just self judgment. And so we're pushing down an emotional experience.
(2:06:40) And so countless people, I've seen them finally have the emotional experience and all that rumination stops, all that judgment stops. And so you're not like if you actually feel the feeling. Now, there's a couple ways that that goes wrong. There's some people who feel the feeling, but they don't feel it all the way or they don't feel the feeling underneath.
(2:07:01) So they, you know, instead of like sobbing and being sad and having the grief and when they do that, you know, they have big wave of grief and then a lesser wave of grief and then a lesser wave of grief and then maybe a divorce it takes 6 months or something like that of these waves of grief moving through. That's fine.
(2:07:17) But then there's people who are like grieving and they're like, "Poor me, he was such an [ __ ] I'm so sad that he was such an asshole." There's a lot of blame in there. There's a lot of story in there. There's not just the pure grief. And so that can get stagnant because the story, the recursive story, they're not actually having the full grief or they grieve but they're also really pissed and they're not getting angry.
(2:07:40) So like okay go get angry then go grieve and then the rumination stops >> and how much of extra >> and again like don't trust me do it just like run the experiment. >> Fair everything that you say we have to experience it. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Or else this all of it goes for toss. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. >> Some people will buy it, some people will. Some people won't.
(2:08:01) >> Or they'll think it's true, but they won't won't change their life. >> Yeah. >> And some people like, "Oh, he doesn't get it." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> He doesn't know. He's not lived my life. What does he know about the kind of [ __ ] I'm going through? [laughter] >> Yeah. Should they should look into my life? Yeah.
(2:08:21) [laughter] >> Trust me. No matter how your life is, someone somewhere feels like they have it worse. >> Worse. Yep. That's true. >> And they probably have. >> And they pro. Yes. >> There's definitely people who had it a lot worse than me. >> And I I was asking you that how much of >> how much of extraordinary success that you see is driven out of these negative emotions, pain, insecurity, rejection, feeling like [ __ ] >> Yeah.
(2:08:52) I think that there's, like I said, if somebody's motivated that way, they can motivate themselves to a certain time and then they either blow up or they become burnt out. And then if they if they don't transition into missionaligned motivation, if they don't transition into having some confidence in themselves, loosening up the control, then they burn out typically.
(2:09:13) >> Fair. But this comes later, right? Like in the beginning, you get started with some negative emotions. So how much of >> Yeah. >> like how >> well this is >> you've met endless people. >> Yeah. >> How much of it you have seen that what's the percentage? >> So this the the question that you're asking has like a false premise to it.
(2:09:30) And so at some point you were kind of saying like what makes it that we have this shame. We're all born with it. We all get taught it. Like this is >> this is a reason. >> This is the activation. This is the spark. So you feel almost all >> all of us have that same fuel >> and some change it. Have you seen someone going from zero through to the top completely and not feeling burnt out till the last time of your life till the last time? >> Uh >> I don't know anybody >> they have not felt the burnt out and they're still motivated out of this
(2:10:07) negativity. I was watching this one documentary recently Jookovich. Okay. >> Did you see that? No. No. Okay. You You need to see it. You like it. It's like just one and a half hours because he's driven out of negative emotions. He's driven out of this feeling called in, which is a Serbian word, is like the the unhinged or like a constant chip on the shoulder to prove you wrong.
(2:10:33) >> Yeah. >> And every time and there are instances in >> and Jookovit's life. >> Yeah. We're talking about the basketball player. >> What? >> The basketball player. No, Jookovic is a tennis player. You know this? >> No, I know that the Joker is a basketball player who's also really good and also from Serbia. >> Okay.
(2:10:49) >> I was talking about Jooko. No Jookovic. >> Okay. >> Okay. He's he's a tennis player. >> Okay. >> Top in the world. He's the most accomplished tennis player in the world right now. >> Yes. >> He has 24 grand slams. Roger Fedra, Nadal, nobody has as many grand slams as him. He's like the GOAT. >> Yeah. >> Right.
(2:11:06) >> And people don't love him. >> People don't love him. >> People don't love him. They hate it. >> Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. >> People hate People hate the second best, the third best, and they think that the second and the third are way better than him, even though all the records say that he's the best. >> Interesting.
(2:11:20) >> And he hates the feeling. And >> he hates the feeling of what? >> Just like why don't people love him? Like what's what's this? People boo him. >> Oh, people he hates that people don't like him. >> Yeah. I I don't know if he hates it or not, but it's evident that a lot of people in his life hates that.
(2:11:40) How can somebody be so accomplished and yet get booed by an audience for not like there was this one because it happened recently that he >> he was in the in a very important tournament >> and he faced a muscle injury or some some engineer he was not feeling good he walked out of the event. >> Yeah. >> And everybody booed him.
(2:12:02) >> Ouch. >> And he's the most accomplished tennis player in the world. >> Right. any other player would have done this. People have not booed him and not treated him the way. >> Yeah. It's >> horrible. >> And then one of his coaches says this >> because he just and then next event he goes to the Olympics.
(2:12:22) He he takes that feeling in and he goes and wins the gold medal, right? So his coaches say said this that he loves this feeling that I'm here to prove you wrong. Come doubt me. And you can see his game improving. More and more people are doubting him. If more people are cheering for the opponent, he gets better. >> Okay. >> And he's the champion.
(2:12:44) He's made it to the top. >> So what's the question? >> So the question is, have you seen anyone else go through >> I've definitely experienced >> they go through this pain all throughout and then they still win and they don't feel the burnout. >> So I >> they don't heal themselves. >> Yes. And yes, not heal themselves. Yes. They can be extremely successful.
(2:13:03) no to the burnout. >> Like they will feel burned out at some point. >> I've just never met one that hasn't. I'm sure that there are some. I just haven't met them. The likelihood of burnout is far greater. But even the ones that I assume they have, I still think they're more missiondriven. They might still have the thing aligned, but they are like, I want to see the world in a different way.
(2:13:27) >> I have not. Yeah. So sports is one of those things that people talk about a tremendous amount as an example, but most people in sports are like done pretty young. >> Yeah. >> So in business, you have to see the high performance last for a long period of time. And you can see somebody who's like driven by negativity for a long period of time, but they also are driven by a mission.
(2:13:53) So my experience is that the men who and women who who like continue to fuel on negativity they also have a clear mission or they burn out. >> So and at what point does the healthy ambition turns into addiction? >> I'm not I don't think the addiction is the ambition. The addiction is to get approval. The addiction is to try to feel safe.
(2:14:21) The addiction is to I don't think it's the ambition. >> Interesting. >> The addiction isn't like if you have an ambition to love like is that an addiction? If you have an ambition to you know plant a thousand trees a day is that a is that an addiction? I I I think the addiction is your ambition to prove yourself or addiction to be seen a certain way or to have people like you or to >> is validation.
(2:14:52) >> Validation is a great one. Yeah, that's a great I would call that's more of the addictive thing because you don't ever let it fully in. You you hungry ghost it. You're not actually allowing the validation in. So you're like you get it, you get a taste of it. It gives you like that moment, but you never actually fully get it.
(2:15:11) So, it's like that's why it's more addictive. Like the way a cigarette is like you you have the cigarette because you want to calm down. It kind of calms you down for a minute, but then it an makes you more anxious over time and so you're in this addictive loop. >> And can you break the cycle of wanting constant validation? >> Yeah, that's easy. That's an easy one.
(2:15:30) >> How? >> Allow a compliment in allow compliments in and like actually recognize the truth of your accomplishments and let yourself feel good about them >> and that gets to the starting point of a conversation that that won't make you less hungry because you will then shift from validation to a mission >> and mission usually works out better.
(2:15:58) >> That's right. >> Can somebody have mission from day one? >> Yeah, definitely. I see that all the time. They don't have to reach a certain point by which which getting fueled by their negative emotions and then change into a mission. They don't need to do >> I think there's always some negative emotions that started off.
(2:16:21) It's a great question like for me my ambition all went to the spiritual journey. >> So I was like meditating seven hours a day for like >> like seven eight years. I was like doing every kind of self-help thing that I could find. That was my ambition. It was fueled from I'm not good enough. It was fueled from I want to like stop feeling miserable.
(2:16:47) I like the same thing that fuels it for everybody else, right? If I do this long enough, I'll be happy. If I do this long enough, I'll make it. If I do this long enough, I'll hit some sort of idea of perfection that will make me happy for the rest of my life. It was all [ __ ] None of that happened. just like it doesn't happen for the person who becomes a billionaire or anything like that.
(2:17:05) So I think that that shame the gift gift of that early shame or those negative emotions is it is our fuel to find out that that's not the game we're playing. The game we're actually playing is >> something very different. >> Yeah. [clears throat] You know this do you think that this thing the the negative traits of a founder or of a manager of a CEO >> Yeah.
(2:17:31) >> ends up becoming company's culture? >> Absolutely. And their product >> how how can a founders personality traits end up becoming the culture of the entire company? >> Give me examples as well. >> Yeah. So the same way like an artist's like mentality when they're painting is what you see in the canvas.
(2:17:53) It's the same situation. So if a CEO uh rewards uh is avoidant like they they're like I don't want to have difficult conversations then it's a culture of non difficult conversations. If it's a culture of bullying until you get what you want, then it's a culture of bullying. That's what gets rewarded. So, it's just as simple as like the thing that gets rewarded is the thing that >> that works inside of the company.
(2:18:24) And because also I don't want to work with a certain kind of person. Like you and I are capable people. Capable people are what make a company run. Capable people can determine where they work. So, I'm going to work some somewhere that it fits into the way that I like to operate.
(2:18:44) So, I'm not going to work at a culturally like an avoidant company. I would be like, >> I would be dead. Like, I'm so direct. That's never going to happen. >> [ __ ] >> So, I'm going to work in a company that's direct. And so, so it builds it. It builds the culture that way. >> It is so important to heal yourself. [laughter] The thing is if you >> heal yourself or know yourself both >> true because then indirectly you are just affecting so many people in your life in your company in your family in your friend circle and just you end up if you're the dominant
(2:19:24) force even if you're not the dominant force if you're the most victim force >> or the most dominant force in both cases you're just >> making you're rubbing that effect on everyone else and it's contagious and everyone's becoming that because that's get rewarded or that's gets solved or that gets attention. >> Yeah.
(2:19:42) I mean the Buddhists say about this. They say that it's the most compassionate act you can do. >> But I I want to geek out on a second. Heal yourself, become [snorts] better, know yourself. I I choose know yourself because there's less shoods in it, so it's more effective. But I also choose know yourself because if you really understood a watch, could you fix it? If you just knew how a watch worked, you could fix it, right? So if you like if you focus on fixing yourself, there's an assumption there's something wrong with you and you don't see the picture as clearly. Like
(2:20:20) if I watch how you're working with me today, you're like, I want to know how this whole thing works. I want to just like I want to get the whole understanding. I want to break and I want to see what I can do. That is what allows you to actually master it. But if you are instead going what's wrong with me and how do I fix me? It you're a slower learner >> than just knowing yourself.
(2:20:45) >> Tell me this is probably going to be my last question before I ask you the question that I ask everybody. >> Okay. that is if someone's watching this and they want to get into this practice >> Yeah. >> of becoming better and becoming top 1% in their field. >> Yeah. >> What are one or two things which should become their habit on an everyday basis so that they get really better? You you coach successful people and you help them get better.
(2:21:20) The first question is what makes you want to be the top one or two in the field? That would be the first question that I would ask because the answer to that will determine what happens after that. >> What is driving you that you have this ambition? That's what you answer. >> What what makes it that you want to be the first or second in the field? >> And what can be typical answers for that? >> Lots of answers for that.
(2:21:47) It's the >> What have you heard typically? >> Let me show you what I would do. What makes you want to be the number one in the world? >> No, don't do this to me. [laughter] I've had I have had 500 things to think tonight anyway. I don't want another rabbit hole. [laughter] >> Fair enough. >> I'm very open, but it's too much to >> I got it. I got it. Yeah. Yeah.
(2:22:08) [laughter] Yeah. Especially in and ask me questions. Um, so typically what somebody would do is they would say what I want to be the best because then I'll be noticed and then I would say and then what's the need behind being noticed so that I could feel safe? And what's the need behind feeling safe so that I could be at peace? And what's the need behind being at peace so that I could easily love people? And what's the need behind being able to easily love people so that I could experience the love and be loved and love people?
(2:22:48) So then what I would say is great be the the way you can be the best is to show if that's your answers then make sure that when you're doing the podcast >> make sure that that intention is there make sure that you're loving and being loved and that's how you that's the that's the purpose and drive of your podcast and that even if it doesn't make you the best though it probably will because it's aligned deeply with who you are [snorts] it will make you the best possible version of it for you and it'll make you
(2:23:23) happy. >> Are people wise enough to answer this? >> Oh yeah, we do it all the time. Like that's a that's a basic exercise in one of our courses. So in our courses we don't like there's no lecturing. There's just a whole bunch of experiments that we run like that one and then people get to discover this stuff for themselves >> because maybe I'm assuming this it will be very difficult for people to come up with why do you want to be number one? So let's say because of this and then you ask why again and then why again and then why.
(2:23:51) It'll be very difficult for people to sit down and answer like seven or eight layers of depth. Probably one or two is easy >> only if they're trying to get it right. >> H >> if they don't care about getting it right, it's pretty easy to do. >> So if you don't judge yourself and there's no shame involved. >> Exactly.
(2:24:13) >> Then you don't care about right or wrong and >> Yeah. I got to figure it out. That's right. >> And then you you surrender. You open with yourself. >> Look at you. [laughter] >> He's like, I just watched you like unlock one of those [laughter] one one of those like box puzzle boxes and it just went. That was awesome.
(2:24:31) >> See, finally [clears throat] we're at we're on to something. Yes. [laughter] >> No, I love this. I I loved it. Okay, here are last two question I ask all my guests is one is >> what is one advice nobody should follow? >> One advice nobody should follow. I've never heard that question. That's such a good question.
(2:24:55) Um that's really hard because there's like good advice at different levels of of awareness. I'm I'm going to geek out here for a second. a person at one place in their journey advice works really really well for and then at some point that advice sucks, >> right? Like at some point it's really important to think that like you have choice and you have will and you can do things and at some point it's much more useful to realize it's all a gift and there's nothing but gratitude for what has been happened to you.
(2:25:26) They're both really important. So like what's the bad advice? It's kind of more bad advice for where you are situation. But if I'm going to say one piece of bad advice is that you is that there's something wrong with you. Anybody tells you there's something wrong with you, [ __ ] them. [laughter] Not not interested.
(2:25:44) It's not it's you know, it doesn't mean that there's not things that want to evolve. But you know, like I think about this like an oak tree. It's like when is an oak tree perfect? When it's an acorn? When it's a sprout? When it's 20 [snorts] years old? When it's 100 years old. Yeah, there's constant evolution.
(2:26:05) But there's >> it's it's got its own perfection at every level. >> Nice. So there's nothing wrong. >> There's no Yeah. Nothing wrong with you. >> Like to believe that there's something broken about you is even if you're telling yourself it's bad advice, not effective. >> Nice. And his his last question is >> what is the personal cost that you have paid to become the coach for the top 1% in the world? >> My identity.
(2:26:41) >> And what do you mean by my identity? >> Many things like I had to um I had to see through the personal like I am something to defend that there's something that in me that I need to defend and but also I mean like my job as a coach and as a teacher is that I I allow people to project what they need to project onto me so they don't particularly see me.
(2:27:11) They see the [ __ ] you Joe Hudson. They see the annoying guy who kept on asking the questions or they see the super loving dad that they never had or they see the like they get to see all different aspects of me and so the or not aspects of me just different aspects of themselves reflected in me is more a way to say it and so that's also what I mean is that like my job isn't to bring myself or my wisdom to the work my job is to listen to your wisdom in the work, right? And so my job is to be a mirror more than anything else. So
(2:27:47) there's that way I mean identity, but there's also the way like there's there's no my capacity to understand myself is my capacity to coach. It's not I haven't learned a whole bunch of tricks. I've just like constantly explored myself and in that my identity disintegrates. So the cost that you have paid is >> nobody sees you for who you are.
(2:28:12) They see you the way they want to see you. >> That's one way. Yeah. >> Does that bother you? Sometimes >> there's a sadness to it. Yeah. I was saying this recently, especially as I become notable and you know, people get in front of me and they start crying cuz they saw me or they that like they have some projection of me that I'm going to save them or whatever.
(2:28:34) There's a part of me that's like uh it feels like hey I I I want to connect with you like I want connection and you you don't see me like like and and I don't and there's a sadness to the idea that you think I'm special instead of you seeing yourself as me and me seeing me as you like there's that that there's a sadness to that for sure. Yeah.
(2:28:56) >> Wow. >> Yeah. you your your cost is also very wise in [laughter] >> I mean everything else hasn't cost me I have like amazing family I have amazing wife I have like we have success on every level financial we've touched thousands hundreds of thousands millions of people now like I get to watch people transform for a living like my life is awesome [laughter] you know so >> it's so nice I love it like lot of people when you when we ask them this They're like it costed me my my house, my wife, my friends, my party time, my
(2:29:34) uh sleep, my you know like there's so many like to me if you ask me this question and like I think about it a lot obviously [snorts] there are lots of costs but the most evident one is restlessness. I'm never at peace. Like if you ask me the personal cost that I've paid for what I've become, it's I'm just restless.
(2:29:57) I'm never I'm fully present in the moment. >> Yeah, I see it. >> But the moment this moment ends. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm like, "Okay, what's next?" And then there's this constant need to be on the hamster wheel on on a on a treadmill >> that I can't get off. Right. your cost >> is such [laughter] a and the funny such a wise cost.
(2:30:18) >> The funny thing is I probably work like you work too. I >> I fully agree with that and I know I can see that. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> I'm in New York for like just this and then I'm off to Ottawa to do Yeah. Exactly. >> There's a reason obviously the kind of things that you do. >> Yeah. >> It's definitely not coming because you sleep like 24 hours a day.
(2:30:40) [laughter] >> That's so true. [laughter] What a pleasure to get to meet you. Oh my goodness. Pleasure. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you so much for coming here and doing this with us. >> I love this this pursuit of keep chasing the next thing. I really enjoy it. >> Yeah. >> I almost like sometimes when I really sit with myself >> Yeah.
(2:31:07) And I'm I'm trying to ask these questions which which look easy but are like really tough questions to ask that why am I doing this? What do I really want? What will make me happy? And this and that. And I think this continuous chase makes me happy. I don't think that that number one or anything of that. Like I I don't even care about all of that at any point.
(2:31:27) >> But it's the chase of what? I just love the next like setting a next impossible thing in front of me then chase it and then set another impossible thing and actually the the achievement doesn't make me happy and I don't even care about it >> right >> I just want to set whatever looks like the horizon point to me and I just want to keep running it it's fun >> thank you for watching this episode till the end would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on
(2:31:56) the show let us know in the comments Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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