Why You Feel Abandoned in Relationships | Jimmy Knowles

Why You Feel Abandoned in Relationships | Jimmy Knowles

Author Name:Three Percent Co.

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@ThreePercentCo

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myu8hLzcmYM





Title: Why You Feel Abandoned in Relationships | Jimmy Knowles

Author Name: Three Percent Co.

Description: Why do we keep repeating the same relationship patterns, even when we desperately want things to change?

In this episode of The Three Percent Podcast, Jamie and Blake sit down with Jimmy Knowles (Jimmy on Relationships) for an honest, funny, and surprisingly vulnerable conversation about marriage, anxious and avoidant attachment, emotional safety, and the patterns that keep us disconnected.

Jimmy opens up about his own marriage nearly ending, what he's learned about his anxious attachment, and why even people who desperately want connection can struggle to create it.

Together, they explore:

Why anxious and avoidant partners often get stuck in painful cycles

How people-pleasing can become self-abandonment

Why emotional safety doesn't mean avoiding discomfort

The difference between expressing a feeling and making an accusation

How defensiveness can derail a conversation in just three sentences

What it actually takes to repair conflict and rebuild connection

Why healthy relationships require both partners to show up

Whether you're married, dating, or trying to understand your own relationship patterns, this conversation offers practical insights into creating healthier, more connected relationships.

Follow Jimmy Knowles (Jimmy on Relationships):
Website: https://jimmyonrelationships.com
Instagram:   / jimmy_on_relationships  
YouTube:    / @jimmyonrelationships  


Subscribe for more honest conversations about emotional health, relationships, and the 3% that keeps us stuck.

#JimmyKnowles #JimmyOnRelationships #ThreePercentPodcast

Transcript:
(00:00) You you can see it so easily when somebody walks in the office. You're like, "Well, you're miserable because like [laughter] of the thousand steps that you took [music] towards a destination where connection was never possible. Like, you abandoned yourself at every turn cuz you didn't want to be abandoned. And you still feel abandoned.
(00:19) Like, because that road was never going to lead to where you hoped that it would lead. What's up, [music] dude? >> What's up? Welcome to the 3% podcast. We are two therapists and best friends and we believe that at our very best, we're 97% [music] honest and it's the other 3% that keeps us stuck. >> So, join us as we have conversations [music] exploring what the 3% is and what we can do with it to have healthier relationships.
(00:53) [music] >> [music] >> What's up, everybody? Welcome back to this week's episode of the 3% podcast. This is maybe it's hard to engage, but maybe one of my favorite episodes just because it kind of blew my mind a little bit. >> Yeah. >> We got to have somebody on who you may have seen before online because he has a platform where he reaches millions of people every day through his content.
(01:17) He's not a therapist. He's not a coach. He says he's just a dad who is figuring it out, which kind of minimizes how smart he actually is about this stuff. We get into anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, what makes marriage work, what he sees in his DMs of what keeps people stuck in relationship.
(01:41) He gets vulnerable vulnerable about his own relationship. I was taking notes literally the whole time. >> Yeah. And he does it in such a disarming and humorous way. >> Yeah. Like, stick around. It's going to be a blast. >> So, we're really stoked to be able to bring you this conversation with our friend Jimmy Knowles.
(01:56) You may know him as Jimmy on relationships and you've definitely seen a skit or two of his. If not, you have to go. Yeah, you have to go. So, make sure you get a pen and paper out cuz if you're like me, you're going to want to take notes on this one. Come [music] back to it because I really believe that if if you apply >> [music] >> just a couple of the things that we cover in this episode, it could it could really change your relationship [music] for the better. So, buckle up.
(02:24) Let's get into it. >> I'm starting this, am I? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Literally, every time you start. >> [laughter] >> I know. I was just laughing. >> Mhm. >> I think we just start right here. Because >> [laughter] >> we have a I guess on today who's really not funny at all. >> Mhm. No. >> Like he's got no funny bone. >> Mhm. >> I mean, we all have a funny bone, but he doesn't have any humor in him.
(02:55) >> And hence why I'm literally crying before we even start recording. >> Yeah, absolutely. Jimmy. >> Really high expectations for this episode. >> [laughter] >> Setting the scene early. >> Yeah. >> Maybe it's because I'm being introduced on an open mic. Who's ready to laugh [laughter] Who's ready to not laugh? Give us your best stand-up material.
(03:15) Ready? Go. >> I know. >> Oh my gosh. >> I wanted to be a stand-up for a long time. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> You kind of are. >> I'm too I'm too scared of the of like the live stage. But that's one thing that I think speaking will help if I ever can get over the fear and do some public speaking.
(03:31) I think it would be kind of like scratch that itch of like of stand-up. >> Did you ever try it? >> No. Too scared. Too scared. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But you kind of do stand-up. >> It's like a good medium. You do it on social media, but you don't have no one. You don't have to do it in front of a live audience.
(03:47) You do it in front of no one you can see. >> Perform for me. >> Yeah. Millions of people, but that you just aren't >> That's the crazy >> thing about my videos is I I genuinely forget. I I think I'm I just hit record and then post and I forget that people see them. >> Really? >> And that helps. >> You intentionally do that? >> I mean it helps I mean cuz otherwise you're you get real self-conscious real quick, you know, so I I kind of forget that people see them.
(04:11) >> What's the fear like What's the fear you have of public speaking? >> Oh, there's so many so many fears We can This can turn into a therapy session. I'm fine with that. You can just dive into all my fears. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I mean I'm a I'm I'm a people pleaser by nature and so but with that comes this comes you know, some insecurity.
(04:31) I I usually feel like I don't even like doing podcasts. This one I feel safe with and I can open up and but normally I don't like doing podcasts cuz I feel like the more I talk the more you're going to go he doesn't know what he's talking about. >> So it's like the fear of being found out almost. >> Yeah.
(04:48) Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of imposter syndrome when it comes to social media stuff. So >> Has that gotten Has the imposter syndrome gotten stronger as your audience has grown? Cuz you have like a No, massive audience. >> Oh, stronger. Yeah. Yeah. Stronger. Stronger. Yes. >> Like there's more pressure almost. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(05:05) Like now there's even more people that are going to that are going to realize that I'm just a >> And you live in people's minds almost like >> Yeah. >> People have because you talk mainly about relationships and so people have like a conflict in their relationship and there's some video of yours or something that's just kind of like living in the back of their mind like Jimmy on What would Jimmy on relationships do? >> Yeah.
(05:29) Yeah, this the tragic thing about creating this social even even people that would say, "Well, you're you're clearly successful in social media." is that it doesn't matter how many followers you have or doesn't matter how many great comments you get like I still have that disorder where I could see nine helpful comments like this video was so great and then the one that's like you just strongly disagrees with me, says that you don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't be doing this.
(05:54) And that's the one that will stick with me. So um I've figured out that if I don't read the comments I don't have that problem. >> There you go. >> We talked about that before because we were doing some research for this field guide we're writing and Jamie was doing found some research on Was it the confirmation >> negativity bias >> So like you can that's neurobiology.
(06:16) Like it's not a problem with Jimmy or us cuz we have the same issue. It's how our brains are wired to protect us from harm. So you can have 10 people say something kind and you can have one person say something negative that feels threatening >> Yeah. >> and your brain will encode that with greater context and clarity and that context and clarity um makes your brain think it happens repetitively because it's more interesting than what's an accessible memory.
(06:49) So if it has context and clear clarity, it's really easy to access. And if it if it can access it easier, it thinks it happens more often. Which is why it feels like these nine things meant nothing cuz your brain doesn't access them as easy and this one thing meant everything because your brain can access it. So it feels like everyone is thinking that thing instead of the nine things.
(07:10) >> Do we have to be smart to be on this podcast cuz I I was not prepared for >> [laughter] >> I just want to know off the bat we can >> Just pretend to be. >> I can leave it at >> He's He's just pretending to be smart, actually. >> Yeah. >> He read that on chat GPT before. [laughter] I told him that it's like "Hey, I'm going to ask you this question.
(07:27) If you want to sound smart, make sure you have this studied." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Right. >> We like we are just protecting ourselves from imposter syndrome >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> through over-preparation. >> Okay. So >> I do that, too. >> a lot of I mean this show is like I don't remember this the stats of male female listenership anymore.
(07:46) It used to be largely male but it's kind of closer 50/50 now. >> Yeah, it's pretty much 50/50. >> audience hasn't seen my content. That's fine. >> [laughter] >> And >> What's the half that hasn't? Do you have more female followers? >> about this because originally you were making content primarily for men, right? >> Yeah, well when I started out I thought it was just I don't know it was kind of like stay in your lane type of situation.
(08:10) I was like I'm a husband and I'm learning all the stuff and and I want to share it. So it was more like hey guys let's let's rally together and like let's do our part. Like here's how you can do your part as a husband or or just a guy in your relationship. >> So cool. >> But that wasn't great because um men don't want to just see content where you're I don't know like getting on to them about things that they can change because because their immediate reaction is like I'm not seeing a lot of content where she needs to change.
(08:46) >> Mhm. >> She's the female content creators are talking about how the men need to change. You're talking about how men need to change. Like how are we not the problem? How are we not the sole problem here? And so I I deliberately switched up and I'm like okay well cuz I don't believe that men are the only problem.
(09:04) Like women can struggle with the same defensiveness. Women can struggle with the same emotional unavailability or immaturity. Um you know, there's plenty of women that are narcissistic as well. So um but I would say in general I would say men traditionally have struggled with not really seeing the value of emotional vulnerability, you know, and so and I do believe that there's a I'm I'm the type of guy that's like from what I've learned relationships it's essential that they have trust and intimacy and emotional connection and
(09:41) emotional safety and I don't see a lot of men that really see the value in prioritizing those. >> Mhm. >> Like, oh, okay, how can I grow these in my relationship? Whereas Whereas females are generally more empathetic. Um and and that might and I don't necessarily think that that's Like, there's a good reason for that.
(10:03) There there's not There's a lot of men that grew up without models that put any value put any value on those things anyway. So, it's like it was it was a clear destination where we were heading and and so there's I can have grace and empathy for the man who's like, I don't know what she wants from me, you know.
(10:24) >> Totally. >> And I'm like, well, she wants more emotional connection, but you don't know what that is and it makes you feel a lot of shame cuz now I'm telling you like you feel like you're flawed in a way or or you feel like I'm just labeling you as the problem, whatever the case may be.
(10:37) So, but I can also hold them accountable like, hey, let's let's put the shame aside and just like if you just did a couple things differently, like it would make a huge difference. Like >> Mhm. >> Like sometimes it's best just to think about the positive instead of the negative. Like Like when she says like, hey, you're always on your phone, instead of getting so defensive like, I'm working so hard.
(10:58) You like, I'm providing for this family and you don't know how hard it this is. Instead just to think of it as like, she just misses spending time with you. >> Woo. >> She's She's feeling When she says I feel lonely and disconnected from you, it's easy to take that as I'm not doing enough. I'm never going to do enough. She thinks I'm a bad partner.
(11:16) I need to defend myself, you know. But it's like, or you could think of it as she misses you. She misses the connection that you you used to bring and that's not to say that you're necessarily doing anything wrong. It's just like, let's you would be surprised that you implementing some of the things that you used to do that you might have gotten complacent on and not you know do those anymore.
(11:41) You would be amazed at how that drastically changes the relationship and all of a sudden she's happier, she feels more connected and you don't as a guy sometimes I mean this is what I hear from a lot of guys they're just like um even when they get it right >> [cough] >> they're like I mean yeah she's happier cuz I did those things but like I don't even know what I did.
(12:02) Like I don't even I don't even really know. >> Yeah. >> I'm like well you were more intentional about like talking with her again and all that stuff he's like they don't realize the how big of a difference that makes. So I don't know it's a long tangent on >> No that's good. >> [clears throat and cough] >> I'm curious when you talk about a lot of men don't seem to value the emotional availability which is true I mean we would see that in our practice and I mean that's the whole reason we're doing this show is to help >> [clears throat and cough]
(12:29) >> excuse me help mostly men but it's just getting broader than that. >> Yep. >> Turning these emotional walls into healthier relationships and I think you're onto something that a lot of us don't value or struggle to value the emotional availability because we didn't have the consistent experience of our caregivers let's just start there being emotionally available to us.
(12:53) >> Yeah. >> And so then a lot of guys are like you said being asked to provide something that it's not only like I don't even know what that is but like I haven't experienced that. >> That's very true yeah. >> Um and they don't give it to themselves. >> Don't give it to themselves cuz yeah. >> They didn't like I think sometimes what I hear from men is um all that the shame or maybe the frustration is even like you're asking so much of me.
(13:27) >> Mhm. >> And and implicit in that is I I'm not getting that. >> Mhm. >> Why do you want that? And I almost hear that as like I don't even know what it is to be connected with myself, much less connected to you. >> yeah. Yeah, I love there's a quote I would butcher it, but it's like you can't be connected to someone else when you're disconnected with yourself, you know.
(13:50) >> Mhm. >> And that I I see that a lot where it you know, people are The other thing that happens especially when you when you factor in like avoidant attachment or something like that is like if if it's your default to dismiss your own feelings, you know, compartmentalize, dismiss your own invalidate your own feelings as like kind of unimportant, then of course that's what you're going to default to when your partner has a feeling.
(14:16) >> Woo. >> You're going to just you're just going to dismiss them as well. And of course that's going to lead to disconnection in the relationship, but from your standpoint, from your nervous system, like that's how your nervous system regulates. >> Mhm. >> Let's dismiss that bad feeling. Let's dismiss that hurt you know, that hurt that I feel.
(14:33) Let's compartmentalize it and get a get it out of here >> Yeah. >> so that I can feel better. And so when you have a hurt or a negative feeling my natural response like get rid of it. >> Mhm. >> Don't And so I dismiss you. I dismiss the feeling. But really I'm dismissing you. That they don't know that. They don't see that that you're you're actually dismissing her. You're dismissing him.
(14:55) >> Mhm. >> You think I don't know, in some backwards way and subconsciously you're thinking that you're like helping them. >> Mhm. >> Like you're so sensitive. If you weren't so sensitive, you wouldn't be hurt right now. >> Oh. >> So I'm actually helping you by reminding you that you should be more like me, like callous and you should compartmentalize this stuff.
(15:13) Like don't focus on it. >> Yeah. >> Get rid of it. >> Which is a like not even often a manipulative thing, but they really believe like I am okay because I am callous. >> Yeah. >> That's how you >> I'm not as stressed, I'm not as anxious >> Exactly. >> as you are because >> Exactly. >> I am more walled off. >> Yeah.
(15:32) >> I think that's how you end up hearing the the phrase from men like I'm not an emotional person. >> For sure. >> And and then it's like okay, well, and this is maybe a little condemning. Not trying to add shame to people, but I do go like, okay, then tell me why you drink so much. >> 100%.
(15:52) Why are you so angry? >> Why are you so angry? Why are you so invested in Alabama football? >> [laughter] >> Just called out Alabama specifically. >> I mean >> I mean >> We are We are surrounded by it here. So >> Even though we're in Tennessee. >> Yeah. >> I I I totally get >> Pick your team. You're right. >> Yeah, pick your team.
(16:13) Who Who cares? Whatever it is, if you're >> Sports gambling. >> Yeah, if you're taking that need for something somewhere, then that's a an emotional um indicator. >> Yeah. >> And and clearly you're emotional and doing nothing with it. And so to your point, I hear that and I go, wow, what a lightbulb to be like, okay, in my relationship, if I am so familiar and well trained to go, I see an indicator, let me take that to this numbing place or let me >> get rid of that or >> Yeah.
(16:52) >> if my attachment strategy is to go, well, I'm not allowed to have that because I won't be safe. >> Yeah. >> Then I'm going to make sure you feel the same way because that's what strategies do. We think they're the best thing to use. So then we're like, this should also be your strategy. >> Yeah. >> You're doing it wrong.
(17:12) >> You should >> [laughter] >> You should totally care less. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When in reality we're we're completely uh fracturing that relationship. Like like we just don't realize the things that impact the safety and trust and intimacy in that relationship. And that's one of the big ones.
(17:31) Like when people feel invalidated, chronically invalidated, or dismissed, um you know, you you find me any unful- person that feels like disconnected from their partner, unfulfilled in their relationship, and I'd be willing to bet that that like all they also feel like they can't have hard conversations with their partner. >> Mhm. >> They can't bring up a hurt or a need or a desire without feeling like they're going to be punished in some way for it.
(17:56) >> Yeah. >> Like they're just It's just what It's just where that road leads. So, you know, that's why I'm so big on learning how to you know, it's I'm not just I'm not saying that the other person doesn't have a responsibility to communicate that respectfully and vulnerably. >> Mhm. >> 100% Like I will hold anybody get an accountable to like how they're bringing something up.
(18:17) >> Mhm. >> But you cannot have a successful relationship if you if your partner doesn't feel like they can be honest with you >> Mhm. >> about something that they're struggling with or that they need more of in the relationship. And we can take that two different ways, especially as men, where the moment that we feel like something is not right or that you need more of something, it's like I can go to a shame place or I can go to a like why can't you just be happy about the things that I do? You know what I mean? Or [laughter]
(18:50) or we can take that and be more reflective and mature about it and be like, "Oh, this is my partner sharing something that would make them feel more valued and loved in the relationship." And and they they kind of see it the prob- The biggest problem is that like we said, we they don't know what you're asking.
(19:10) So, she might be yelling at you, "I need to feel more connected to you. >> Mhm. >> You do not know what that means. She could be yelling, I need you to learn Japanese. Like, it's Even that would be better, actually. >> Yeah. >> Cuz then you know, oh, I can go take some courses on like learning Japanese. But she's saying something that's completely it the words have have no meaning.
(19:32) Like, I need you to be more >> Yeah. >> like a couch. You're like, I can't be like a couch. I don't know what you're saying to me. >> [laughter] >> Be more like this rug. >> Yeah. >> You're No, I don't know what you want me to do. And so that's where the frustration That's where, you know, but then instead it just comes out as like, why can't you be happy about the things that I do? You know what I mean? >> Right. Right.
(19:49) >> Um So yeah. >> Oh my goodness. So in that Go ahead. >> [laughter] >> In that place I mean, you've been >> Yeah. >> chasing down this work for a while. >> Yeah. >> And you have a Like you said earlier, you have a lot of voices following you who are probably asking what do I do with that? >> Yeah. >> How do you encourage the people in the place that you're suggesting this disconnected why can't you be like this? Why can't you just be thankful for how I show up? >> Yeah.
(20:24) >> How do you encourage them to do something different or to bring about change? >> Yeah. I mean, I encourage them by one, validating where they're both at. Like, one partner just wants to feel more safe and connected in this relationship. That's not a bad thing. The other partner just wants to feel appreciated for the efforts that they're bringing. That's not a bad thing.
(20:44) We can actually both do those things. Like, if you get two people on board you know, like, hey, we you both want this relationship to work. So like let's figure out if it can work. >> Mhm. >> Cuz if we just drop our defenses for a little bit and realize what each other is actually asking then I can I can at least, if we're both willing, I can teach the person who's saying like I need more connection to be more specific and be more >> [sighs] >> I don't know.
(21:15) Giving that person a little bit of grace, but like there's kind of like clear is kind. >> Yes. >> Don't just yell at them that they're not that they're emotionally unavailable. Tell them what that would mean. Like what specifically you need from them. And even if you're like, I've already done that and they won't listen.
(21:32) It's like I know. Like this stuff sucks. Like sometimes being in a relationship sucks, but like you want this to work and they want this to work. So like I need you to say it again. Like I'm not a therapist, but I'm assuming that like when you have two people in the chair, you're like, you're here.
(21:48) I know it's frustrating that you've told them before, but you're here. So like let's tell them one more time. >> Yeah. >> Tell them specifically what would help so much. What it How it would make you feel. Because people Most people, especially men, they desperately want to get it right. I've never met a man that doesn't want to get it right.
(22:06) So tell him what it looks like to get it right. And then it's And then it's his job to not be like, "Woe is me. I'm never going to be able to do that. I'm never going to be able to do it right. Or I'm never going to be able to do it the way she likes it." It's like, "I know. I know. But like let's try. And let's give you a couple concrete things that you can do.
(22:25) " Like, "Okay, she told you that it would really mean a lot to her if you texted her more when you're at work. She feels like it's out of sight, out of mind. When you leave, you're just you She doesn't hear from you for 10 hours and she misses you. She'd like some connection like that." "Well, I always forget. I mean, I'm busy. Like we have all this stuff.
(22:40) " "Okay, well, can you set a reminder on your phone? >> Yeah. >> For every day at noon, your reminder goes off. Hey, remember to text your wife that you love her. Is that so hard? And then you actually do it. Hey, how's your day going? I miss you. I've been in meetings all day, but like but it it just takes some intentionality and some effort.
(22:56) And then all of a sudden a couple weeks later in the therapy office, she's like, "I love that he texts me every day." And you're like, "That's all? I just said a rem- like I sent you a little text, and you loved that? She's like, "Yeah, I love that." >> Yeah. >> Like, "Wow, okay. Like, I didn't realize that that would mean so much to you.
(23:10) " And that's Those are the areas that I found in my own marriage and everything else where it's like People are like, "I didn't realize that meant so much to you." But when you never explore those, and when the and the when when the person doesn't feel safe to bring those up, like >> Ooh. >> catastrophe in the relationship every single time. So, um I don't know.
(23:28) I'm just of the I'm just of the mind that like let's let's make this as simple as we possibly can. Like if It's okay if It's okay if you're totally if it's not going to work, it's fine. If I If we talk to you about your needs and what what you need for this person, how this person needs to show up, and what needs to change in the relationship for you to feel fulfilled and loved and valued, that's fine.
(23:50) And we talk to this person, what do you need, you know, for the in the It's fine if we can't make it work, but let's not but let's not at least explore that, and, you know, humbly and with self-reflection and maturely, um And that's obviously difficult cuz there's there's so much history and pain and resentment that you have to work through first, but but I I I just want to do my best to get to them before they're resentful.
(24:15) >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? Cuz I know that I know that feeling. I know how hard it is to come back from resentment and um small betrayals adding up over time and a death by a thousand paper cuts. Like >> Yeah. >> um I mean, my relationship was on the brink of divorce for those reasons. And And so, I know how difficult it is to come back from that place.
(24:35) And And so, that's why I'm so passionate about like we can prevent so much pain. Like I really need you guys to to focus up before it gets that point. But the problem is that we don't usually change until we have to. You know, there's a there's a reason that so many relationships, whether you want to call it 50% of marriages, what do you Whether you want to agree on the stats or not, the stats are way too high.
(25:01) Even if Even if you said 40% of marriages fail, that's the lowest, you know, cuz 60% of second marriages end. Even if you're going to go 40%. Why are we getting married? >> Yeah. >> 40% bro? If I told you to put your life savings right now on a 40% like, you know, you can double it or you lose it all, you'd be like, "I'm not taking that bet." Like that's crazy.
(25:24) But you'll get married. >> Ooh. >> You'll get married and have kids with somebody where there's a 40% chance that 10 years from now you're not going to be with this person. What are we What are we doing? Like that's why that's why when I started reading the books and going to counseling and stuff like that, I'm like I'm like, this is too important for me not to devote at least a portion of my life to to like figure it out, help people in any way, shape or form, make it as simple as possible, um because it's just there's just too much pain and there's
(25:59) just too much just generational trauma that comes from us continuing a cycle where we get married and then 40% of the time we are either maybe it's an amicable amicable split or maybe it's a just a horrifying split, but like that has to change. That has to change. Like it shouldn't be this complicated that 40% of the time the love of our life, person that we choose to have children with, that 7 years later we hate each other.
(26:31) There's just That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and so it cannot be that complicated. We have to figure something else out. So that's That's my long rant on why I'm so passionate about relationships. >> It's so good. It is a breath of fresh air to hear you talk about it. I mean, honestly, the you you were I was going to ask prior.
(26:54) >> Yeah. >> We talked about this question of like [snorts] what brought you to being so passionate about >> Yeah. >> relationships. I didn't know that about your relationship. I've cut you off twice asking questions. >> Yeah, I'm still here. >> mind. >> I'm still here, guys. >> He's He's He's been writing.
(27:10) He's got like nine questions. >> actually do. I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven things that I'm like, "Oh gosh, I want to ask it I'm going to go deeper there." >> I think [clears throat] I was going to ask the same question you were about to. >> Okay, go ahead then. >> We'll see. We'll see how in sync we are.
(27:23) Were you going to ask if he wants you to share more about where they were? >> Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, too. >> Oh, yeah. What specifically would you like to know? >> Everything. No, I'm kidding. >> [laughter] >> I think I'm We're very interested in story. I think we believe that sharing vulnerability with people breeds vulnerability, and so even you sharing that you're not just making marriage content and relationship content because you find it interesting, but because it mattered to you and how it mattered.
(27:56) >> Yeah. I'll ask it this way. We say on the show we're not here to tell men who we think they need to be, cuz there's plenty of people doing that. >> Sure. >> We want to help them explore what gets in the way of being the man they want to be. >> Mhm. >> So, the way that I would ask you and to what you kind of just alluded to of where your relationship was, what maybe it's a two-part what kept you what um got in the way >> [clears throat] >> from you being the the husband you wanted to be >> Yeah.
(28:29) >> that then got to the point where you said you're almost on the brink of divorce, and then maybe I mean, I'm not going to ask you to speak for your wife, but like as a couple together, what got in the way of being of it being the marriage you want to be, cuz I don't want to just be like, "Well, what did >> Yeah.
(28:42) >> Kind of what you were saying earlier, like, "What did Jimmy do wrong that impacted that?" So, maybe it's two-part. >> yeah. Like, obviously I don't want to throw her under the bus. That kind of the reason that I picked on men in the in the beginning cuz I didn't want to throw her under the bus. But, um but I'll say this, we both needed like we both had no idea what a relationship required to succeed.
(29:03) We We were not building trust together. We were not uh we didn't actually have intimacy, you know? You can have sex once a week and still feel completely alone in that relationship. So, um >> So, somebody needs to hear that. >> Yeah. One of the biggest things for me, like being a people pleaser, um was cuz a lot of my wife and I's roles are split uh reversed.
(29:33) So, um I'm a bit more So, like I'm more of the anxious attacher and she's more of the avoidant attacher. And but I I'm hesitant to say that because I don't because it's easy to paint the avoidant attacher as the enemy. >> Mhm. >> The anxious attacher gets a pass because they care about relationships, right? They care They just want connection.
(29:57) Problem The reason I don't paint the anxious attachment as just this like victim that like they're just the helpless victim and if they did if they just didn't get with avoidants, boy, would everything work out great. Problem is is that we don't realize that the anxious attacher has their own issues that they have to work through.
(30:15) Where a lot of times they don't even trust safe connection. So, anxious attachers will complain just religiously about the avoidant. But, as someone who lived with anxious attachment for a long time, I dated exclusively avoidants. >> Mhm. >> Just dated avoidant after and then another avoidant and then another avoidant. That's a me problem.
(30:40) I can complain about avoidants all day long. I got with one safe person, okay? I remember specifically this is the only relationship where she was not avoidant and she was secure. And that relationship felt so boring. There was no spark. There was no I felt like there was no chemistry after day and I and I broke up with her.
(31:01) >> Mhm. >> I had never broken up with anyone before. >> Mhm. >> All of I I would eventually get broken up with cuz I was too needy, too clingy, >> Yeah, yeah. >> too needing way too much emotional connection for that for for someone who is avoidantly attached. And I finally found someone who is safe and secure and was like, "I just want to love you in the ways that you you deserve to be loved.
(31:22) " Like and I was like, "I got to get out of here. >> [laughter] >> You must be crazy." Cuz that's what happens when you have a warped view of what love is supposed to feel like and who you should trust and and whether love is supposed to be earned or not. When you finally find someone safe, you're you don't trust it.
(31:43) I don't trust you cuz you're trying to get I'm not I don't have to earn it. This doesn't feel right. >> Yeah. >> And so my like I always say your nervous system often times gravitates to what's familiar, not necessarily what's good for you. >> Mhm. >> So I was gravitating towards needing to emotional unavailability and needing to earn it and and having to work really hard for it and then I could keep complaining that they're so distant.
(32:07) And I just need to if I if I just maybe if I just like do certain things then I can like get them to love me. >> Mhm. >> And then you finally find someone who's like, "I'll love you." And you're like, "Okay, I no, no. Okay, is there anybody else that is like, you know, that I can work really hard to be loved?" >> Ugh.
(32:25) >> Do you get mad about the sound or something? >> He just He told us to pause for a second as the train goes by. >> You can keep going or >> Right. [laughter] >> we can back up. That was just That was a train. >> Yeah. There's a train track right there. It rarely comes by, but apparently it doesn't happen very often the train.
(32:41) Yeah, yeah. >> You can just you can just ask one of your [clears throat] many questions. >> Um >> Just keep it in. Who cares? >> I don't care. >> Yeah, nobody cares. >> Everybody, there was a train. Get over it. >> [laughter] >> You you probably can't hear it as badly as we >> You can't. >> Yeah. >> Were you going to ask something cuz I've got How was your Christmas? >> it's not that important.
(33:03) I think I was just >> Everything you say is important. >> I was I was struck >> Even the mundane. >> I was struck by what he was saying and >> Well, I don't remember >> how vulnerable it is. >> Yeah. >> And it's it I think it's a helpful point for a lot of our listeners will be familiar with anxious avoidant attachment. Um if you're not, we have other episodes that go deep deep dive into that.
(33:29) >> episodes. >> And but historically, I think at least in my practice even, most of the men I see fall into the avoidant or disorganized >> attached. >> Well, I got plenty of stuff for them, so do you. >> I'm sure you do. >> But I was going to pick on the anxious for a minute since I am the one. So, >> Well, I I think it's good.
(33:46) >> So, yeah, you're talking about how that played into your old marriage and the place that you >> Besides that problem, you also sometimes have a problem with like over giving and over functioning. And will you know, anxious attachers will pour into your cup even though you're not pouring into mine potentially.
(34:07) We're also really bad at being vulnerable. We'll we will tell ourselves and I know that it's true in some capacity cuz I know I did this where we don't really trust that this person's going to show up for us, so we're a lot less likely to be vulnerable. And there's good reason for that because if you if you were, they probably didn't show up for you.
(34:30) They probably dropped you and and so it doesn't take you long after you're dismissed or invalidated a couple times where you're like, "You're not a safe place for me." So, so the problem is that those those feelings don't go away. Just cuz you can't be vulnerable with someone doesn't mean that you're never going to bring something up.
(34:46) So, you'll end up bringing it up in really passive-aggressive or really critical ways or um I guess the main point that I want to make without going on an anxious attachment tangent is that I wasn't able to be assertive about my own needs and feelings and hurts and desires because I wasn't really actually connected to myself, nor did I really I didn't have an understanding of those things uh because oftentimes you're so focused on serving others that you one, you're kind of get uncomfortable when you're the one being served.
(35:19) You don't have to worry about that too much when you date an avoidant anyways. So, but I you're also so focused on every meeting everyone else's needs, you don't really know your own. Even if you did know your own, you're probably not going to advocate for them. Probably not going to be very assertive because if you're an anxious attacher like me, you're very conflict-avoidant.
(35:38) So, being a being an advocate for your needs puts you in a risk of conflict. And a risk of conflict means a risk of dis- disconnection, and that's the anxious attachment worst fear. So, so if you put all that together, it's a recipe for a disaster because you don't understand your needs, you're not going to communicate vulnerably, you're not going to You're so you prioritize attachment over authenticity, so you're not even showing up as your true self because you don't feel safe to.
(36:12) And when things are not great in the relationship, you'll stay because maybe you think that you're the problem somehow or if you can just fix it by trying something differently or you're so desperate for connection that you'll tolerate things that you shouldn't tolerate because you don't feel safe to set healthy boundaries. >> Mhm. >> It's a disaster.
(36:33) So, and I see this constantly in my DMs or anybody I talk to that is struggling in their relationship. They're like, well, I can't set I can't set any boundaries. Like, you know, my feelings get constantly dismissed and validated, but like but you know, what should I do? Or it's just there's a list of I'm like, well, first we like we're already we're already so far down this You you It's these small steps over time that lead you to this place where you never thought you'd end up where it's just like but from an outside like from
(37:03) a I'm not a therapist like I said I'm not a therapist, but when you you you when you you can see it so easily when somebody walks in the office, you're like, well, you're miserable because like of [snorts] the thousand steps that you took towards a destination where connection was never possible. Like, you abandoned yourself at every turn cuz you didn't want to be abandoned.
(37:24) And you still feel abandoned. Like, because that road was never going to lead to where you hoped that it would [laughter] lead. >> Woah. >> Yeah. >> Got to write that one down, too. >> [laughter] >> Jeez, Jimmy. Okay. >> I feel like my whole body just dropped on the Tower of Terror at Disney World. >> Like >> It was like >> When he said the abandon yourself at every step.
(37:47) >> yourself at every step and now you're wondering why you >> Oh my gosh. >> Okay. >> Um So many questions. >> Let's do this. >> I just remember you guys did this with Morgan too. Where you guys would say things and she'd be like or it was Eli. You're like, oh, you both look at each other. >> Oh, yeah. >> people I hope people love that about you guys.
(38:09) You're like the only ones that do that. You don't you don't you're not doing it intentionally, but I hope that that's like becomes like a staple of like you guys where people are >> Like when we react to something a guest says. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I didn't even realize that people were impacted by that until our friend Eli pointed it out because we just do it.
(38:24) >> Yeah, she did it on the show. She was like, I love the way you guys are reacting. We're like, what are we doing? >> It would feel like I'm putting myself [clears throat] in a straight jacket not to do it. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, it's just the authentic >> Good, I'm glad that you I want you to be yourself because I care about our friendship.
(38:39) >> Mhm. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Do you care about ours? >> No. >> No, stop. [laughter] This is our moment. >> Yes, I want you to be yourself, too. >> No, this arm thing has to be about me. >> It's not about me. >> [laughter] >> Abandon yourself. >> Okay, I want to ask something or talk about something that I think is very >> [snorts] >> You've You've said the word a bunch of times and I think that it's like a concept in the in the therapy zeitgeist that gets misconstrued a little bit and I'd love to hear your take on it, but
(39:13) >> Hopefully [clears throat] it's real controversial. >> the uh the topic or the concept of like psychological safety. >> Yeah. >> And people not feeling safe in like I don't feel safe enough to say this. I don't feel safe enough to express my needs. I don't feel uh safe to be around [clears throat] you. >> Right.
(39:37) >> And without going too much on a like a side tangent, there I think we've kind of watered down what safe in a relationship means to where like people even up their life up in this category can think that discomfort or conflict in the relationship equals not safe. >> Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And so then I'm not going to put myself out there because it's not safe or I'm going to convince myself I see this like I can think of a few clients where it's like you are making me not feel safe and when
(40:11) we really look at the whole picture it's like, no, this is just really like you said, hard. There's conflict. It's uncomfortable. Um >> Yeah. >> But if I tell if I can tell myself that this just doesn't feel I don't feel safe with you, then I'm not going to take the the risk of >> Yeah. >> asking for what I need.
(40:33) Or and there are certainly like situations in relationships where there is legit like there is no there is no safety. Um >> Yeah, it's a it's kind of a foreign yeah, and it can be misconstrued obviously. I like that. I like that you >> have different maybe subconscious definitions of what safe means. Like if I'm saying well I don't feel safe with you, that may actually like if we really broke that down of well what do you what do you mean when you say safe? What would feeling safe mean? And then it gets more into the nitty-gritty which that's more
(41:03) uncomfortable to say um or these things that I don't like. So I'm just curious like I think it's a word that us as therapists or people who make content like you like we we have like this kind of understanding um but it's also just been thrown out >> Yeah. >> so much almost kind of like narcissism of what what does it even really mean anymore? And >> Yeah.
(41:23) >> are you actually a narcissist or are they actually one or is there just So what do you what would you define as cuz I don't think there's a a one-size-fits-all definition but as uh relationship being safe? >> Yeah. I can tell you I mean just from my personal experience like this is how I want to be safe.
(41:44) I want to be emotionally safe psychologically safe with my wife. Like that means [clears throat] that because I don't agree with like the weaponization of it where it's like anytime somebody makes you uncomfortable that means that it's like uh they're unsafe. Like we should relationships are going to make you uncomfortable.
(41:59) Like they're going to trigger you. They're it doesn't mean that that person's not safe. So [snorts] but for me I I want to be an emotionally safe partner with my wife Emily. And that means that she can feel comfortable bringing something up that might hurt my feelings. >> Mhm. >> Because uh our relationship and our connection is more important than my hurt feelings.
(42:24) >> Ooh. >> So, >> [laughter] >> she she feels comfortable enough to be like, "Hey, what what you said hurt me like earlier." Or or this action uh you know, >> [snorts] >> led to me feeling blank. She feels comfortable enough doing that because she because there's a there's been enough trust in the relationship where she knows that I uh that even if I disagree with her perspective, I can I I can still validate her feelings as real.
(43:03) And that's where a lot of men miss because we're so logical and rational. I say we, not me, but the men listening. That's what I feel like my job is. I feel like I can help men cuz I just feel like there's so many men, not you guys cuz you're actually in touch with you, you know, but so many men that are just like, "I don't know what this ball and chain wants, you know.
(43:24) " I hope they don't say that, but I'm just saying like, "I don't know what >> She might think it. >> Yeah, they might think it. >> And I'm like, "Oh, I can answer that question." I'm like, "I I know what she wants. And and if you'll like give me a minute, I can like tell you." Um so, I feel like that's my job, but but so, that's kind of where validation is so important to me because it's not just agreeing with all the facts.
(43:45) It's it's validating that what you're feeling is real because feelings are real. Men don't They're They really get these mixed up. They're like, I had a guy literally like yesterday say like, "Yeah, but what if the reality is not Like she's feeling a certain way, but what if the reality is different than that? Am I just supposed to ignore reality?" I'm like, "Okay, so first, what she's feeling is real.
(44:07) She didn't fake a feeling. >> Mhm. >> The problem is is that we missed the the terms. See, you can say, "I feel like you don't care." He's like, "But I do care, so that's the reality." So, the problem is is that we started off wrong. So, she doesn't feel like you don't care because that's not a feeling. That's a belief.
(44:27) It's not a feeling. So, be careful when you use feeling words. I I will I will die on that hill. Do not say that you feel and I do We all do this naturally. I'm just saying in important conversations, don't say, "I feel like you're so lazy." Not a feeling. Not a feeling. He cannot validate that feeling because then he would be incriminating himself.
(44:51) >> [laughter] >> So, then when he doesn't validate that feeling, she's like, "Oh, you're dismissing me." I'm not dismissing you. I don't think I'm lazy. >> I'm dismissing your belief. >> I'm dismissing your accusation. >> he's But she feels like he's invalidating the feeling because what she's experiencing is the feeling and she thinks she's communicating that.
(45:10) >> feeling is she experiencing? >> Yeah, she's experiencing a belief. >> Well, she's experiencing a feeling. She just doesn't know what it is. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Communicate that. >> Yeah. >> Nice. >> So, I feel like >> That's real. >> you're on your phone all the time. Okay, well, I I can't validate that because like I'm not I'm not on my phone all the time.
(45:30) I'm on my phone the appropriate amount of time to provide for this family. So, So, that's how we get in the weeds so quickly. That's why I love conflicts because it starts off and we're already off track. >> Ah, yeah. >> I feel like you're always on your phone. Are you kidding me? I work 60 hours a week to provide for this family. Two sentences and we're completely off the rails.
(45:48) >> Yeah. >> Oh, you provide so much for this family. You don't think I do anything around here. I'm taking care of these freaking four kids all day long. Three sentences and we're completely off the rails. The Gottmans say that 96% of the time they can diagnose the first three minutes of a conversation, and they can tell you not only is that conversation going to lead to disaster, but that predicts whether the relationship is going to lead to disaster.
(46:11) I can look at the three I can practically look at three sentences and tell you the same thing. How are you going to come back from those three sentences? You're always on your phone. Are you kidding me? I work so hard for this family. You don't think I work so hard for this family? I'm a home for four kids all day long.
(46:24) You don't appreciate my efforts at all. Four sentences, how are you going to come back from that? Unless you have Unless you have skills. So, we can talk about how cuz conflict is inevitable, but repair is a choice. How are we going to come back from How are we going to come back from those four sentences? And the way you come back The way you come back is by saying, "Hold on.
(46:45) Hold on. Hold on. I think we I think we got off track." And you both have to be able to do that. That's how you repair. That's how you You go "Hold on. I got triggered there. That was That was on me. You You were talking about a feeling. Hold on. You said I You feel like I'm on You feel like I'm on my phone all the time.
(47:01) What are you actually feeling, though?" And she might go "Well I feel like we don't spend any time together." Okay, but what are you feeling? >> Still not a feeling. >> you feeling, though? "I feel lonely." >> Nice. >> Okay. Can I validate that? I might not agree that I'm on my phone all the time. Can I validate that the person I say I love the most in this world feels lonely? >> Yeah.
(47:27) >> Can I validate that? And how would I do that? By just saying "Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Like I'm working so hard for this family but I don't want you to feel neglected. I don't want you to feel lonely. [snorts] Like I don't want you to feel disconnected from me. That Can I communicate with my body and my words that I that that that breaks my heart.
(47:51) I don't want the person I love to feel lonely in this relationship. >> Yeah. >> So, that's validation. Communicating to that person body, words, it makes sense that you feel a certain way. And and I'm validating your feelings as real. I don't need to validate your accusations as real. >> Yeah. >> Let's take those off the table.
(48:09) I don't Get And and and so it that's both of our responsibilities. It's the responsibility of the person to bring it up. Like bring it up in a good way. Don't start with accusations. It that only leads to defensiveness. >> Nice. >> Nobody wants to be told that they're not doing enough or you know what I mean? Like But if you lead with your feelings, I'm not saying that that's going to magically make him a validation expert.
(48:33) Plenty of people are still going to get triggered and take things as an attack just even if when you're respectfully vulnerable. I'm just saying it it sets you up for the best chance at success. And I would still get on the other person as like as like don't never invalidate somebody who's leading vulnerably and respectfully and just trying to communicate to you like, "Hey, it hurt me when this happened.
(48:54) " If you want to throw your relationship away, that's the fastest way to do it. Like invalidate them when they're vulnerable with you. Punish their vulnerability is the fastest way to destroy a relationship forever. >> Punish their vulnerability. >> Literally, you don't think you're punishing their vo- You don't that you don't think you're doing that, but that's exactly what's happening.
(49:13) >> Oh, Jimmy. >> You know what I mean? So good. >> And I have articulated everything in the last 6 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Well, and >> 5 minutes. >> Everything you're saying is amazing and I >> You guys are really good at gassing people up. >> I'm not a good gasser. Don't gas me up cuz then I cuz then I feel like I only have downhill to go.
(49:30) >> Well, we're actually gaslighting you. >> [laughter] >> We're professional gaslighters. No. Uh >> Actually, I disagree with everything you're saying, but >> It's [laughter] good. >> But go on. Go on. >> One way that I try to help clients notice what you're saying about the difference between stating a belief or an accusation or a feeling >> Yeah.
(49:52) >> is if it is predicated by the word like so I feel like if like's in there, you're naming a thought or a belief. >> That's really good. >> You're not naming a feeling. >> It's really good. Most people aren't I didn't really know that I was supposed to do that. I mean >> Neither did I. >> Yeah. >> I learned that after I became a therapist.
(50:10) >> Right. >> So >> It's it's wild like yeah. So >> And I think it was Gabor Mate who taught it to me. Anyways, it's not an original thought. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> None of my thoughts are original by the way. Have I said that already? >> Or no we're just clear. >> But what you just communicated is so helpful to put that idea into practice.
(50:27) >> Yeah. >> If it starts from I feel like you're on your phone all the time, you're naming a thought you have that has become a belief about your partner's character. >> For sure. And >> instead of the feeling that that is a feeling. >> well to that. >> Ugh. >> Yeah. And that's I like I said, I'm that's not to say people are going to say I could say it in the nicest way possible, they're never going to respond. And I would say cool.
(50:50) Get me in touch with that person cuz I will tell them you have to learn how to validate. Like I I will I will empathize and validate with my wife like even if she has a harsh start up, you know, as the Gottmans would say. Um [snorts] not that I don't not that she does shouldn't hold herself accountable to like communicating in a way, but I'm just saying we're nobody's perfect.
(51:10) Sometimes things are going to slip and you know, I feel like you don't care or something like that. It it's my job to care so much about this relationship that I don't let my triggers get in the way and I go what is she actually trying to communicate with me? >> Yeah. >> And that just takes practice and it takes like a beat. >> Yeah. >> You don't have to immediately respond.
(51:31) You don't have to immediately respond with defensiveness or at the very least start to hear yourself. I I can hear myself get defensive now. When I'm getting defensive, I'm like I'm like hold on, I'm getting defensive because I know that you know, I love the Gottmans. >> Yeah. >> He What's What does he say is the four horsemen? Defensiveness, criticism.
(51:51) Okay, well, we already had those two in the first four sentences, so we're already screwed. And then there's contempt and stonewalling. So, I'm just saying like I understand now how dangerous defensiveness is. So, the moment I hear it, I'm like, "Well, hold on. I don't want this to get off the rails.
(52:09) " You want it it to get off the rails? Most people would say no. So, it's like it takes those moments like I'm not a brain guy, but like that takes you know, when you get triggered and when you're getting heated like, you know, that prefrontal cortex goes offline. You're no longer thinking rationally and logically, so that's the problem.
(52:25) That's what we really need to drill down during conflicts is like both of you are literally just in the fear centers of your brain. You're not thinking logically anymore and the best thing that you can do sometimes is just stop. Like before things get off the rails. >> Regulate. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Stop, regulate, come back, and try again.
(52:43) And it's taken my wife and I a long time for us to figure out how to do that. It takes a ton of practice. When you're not When you have no idea how to do it, >> Yeah. >> a ton of practice. >> I think what What I love that you're saying about the this dynamic that I'm sure everybody listening is like, "Oh, yeah." of the like [laughter] we start off and we're already off to the races in the wrong direction Yeah.
(53:06) is that it's on both of us. Like >> Yeah. >> it's not on the >> [clears throat] >> let's say the partner who's being accused to be like, "Well, you're not saying the I feel statement correctly." Cuz that's still defensiveness. >> Yeah. >> And it's not on the person who's making the accusation [clears throat] to be like, "Well, it's hard for me to know what I feel.
(53:30) I'm just saying it how I need to and you need to not be as defensive." >> Yeah. >> Like >> You need to hold all that. >> That's just like a more it's like the same defensiveness dressed up with therapeutic language. >> Yeah. >> Uh but I What I hear you saying is that it's on both of us to recognize like the ways that are really defensive cuz I think that I feel like you are blank.
(53:53) The I feel like and then the the action that's being accused is is still a a posture of defensiveness. It just sounds different. >> I mean it can be interpreted as like yeah. But the things that I like to say like you know, you can say can we start over? Or can you say that in a different way? There's nothing wrong with saying that.
(54:17) Like it takes a lot of uh self like reflection and like getting I keep staying away from that fear center to be able to do that. But that's really what's necessary because people are going to be it's just so easy when you factor in kids and work and stress and it's so easy for one person to snap and then the other person responds. It's so easy.
(54:35) But You just you have to be on guard. Like it's it's literally like a we're protecting this relationship together. Like you have to be on guard with how you're communicating. Your words matter. So my biggest thing is just like just communicate what you want. Like I want my partner to I don't feel like things are equal around the house.
(54:53) I don't feel like the we're equal in the domestic labor or the you know. And so the it's the dishes and the laundry and the making the food food and then your partner walks by you doing the dishes and you're like you snap. You're like do you not care about any like you're literally just going to let me do the I cooked. I already did the I already you know, cleaned up everything else and you're literally going to let me walk by you walk by me doing the dishes.
(55:14) Like you don't care about Yeah. Well, of course that person's going to I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry. But that person's going to take that pretty defensively. You know, like they're they're going to be like I don't know. They're going to come up with something. My only hope is that it's okay that you're it's okay that you're frustrated in those moments.
(55:37) Um I just want you to communicate what you actually need. Like, "Hey, for me, it just it hurts because the story I'm telling myself is that you don't value my time. >> Yeah, love that language. >> I'm I'm doing I'm I cooked six nights this week and I also did the dishes six nights this week and I would just love it if things were a little bit more equal when it comes to the the these types of things that we both designate as mutual chores.
(56:05) >> Yeah. >> Now, now that doesn't say that that that that if your wife told you that that you're not going to still take it as an attack, get defensive, whatever the case may be. That's that's on that's on you. Like, when it comes to your question that I went on the longest tangent ever on, how can I be an emotionally safe partner when she tells me that instead of switching into the fear center and and going into why I why I'm actually really good partner and why are you like nitpicking on like all this other stuff? Instead,
(56:31) I remember I love this person, I care about this person, and I go, "Oh, no. Like, I find any shred of truth to what she's saying, even if you don't really fully believe it. What's the shred of truth? She did do the dishes six nights this week. She did cook six nights this week. Okay, well, and she said she's feeling like things are unequal.
(56:53) She's feeling hurt that things are unequal. Can I How can I validate that? Of course of That makes sense. You can take some accountability. Be like, "You're right. I dropped the ball on that. Like, you're right. This is a mutual chore and I don't I haven't done the dishes once this week." You Admit that you dropped the ball. Like, it doesn't mean you're weak.
(57:12) That's the problem with accountability. We think taking accountability makes us look weak. It's you refusing to take accountability which makes you look weak. >> Or I think the word that I hear in my office a lot with the fear of taking accountability is that I don't I'm confirming I'm the failure they believe I am. >> 100%.
(57:32) >> Ooh. Yeah, that's so That's so good. >> If I agree with this >> and that's one of the biggest problems with men is seeing hearing her complaint as as an attack personal attack on you. It's not always the case. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes she's communicating what would mean the world to her if you did a couple more things differently.
(57:52) Sometimes she's communicating I I really feel like things aren't equal, but I mean, jeez, if you just did the dishes half the time that would build trust in this relationship. That would make me feel like we're equals in this relationship and and I'm just saying you add those things up. You you know, and it could lead to disaster in your relationship if you're not able to have those conversations.
(58:15) So, the last thing I'll say in emotional safety is I want my wife to be fully comfortable saying hey, I don't feel like things are equal in this area. Um that doesn't mean that I'm not saying she should do it in a critical way. Just like just say it. Just say what you mean. Like, hey, I don't think things are equal in this area and it's it's starting to lead to some like bitterness or it's starting to lead to some pain.
(58:39) >> Yeah. >> And then I can respond appropriately. It when you get this right and you practice this you have this like safe vulnerability between you and somebody feels safe to do that it's it's amazing how how quickly the conflict instead of going off the rails in those four lines it's like, hey, this is how I'm feeling.
(58:55) This is what I'm needing. And I'm like, oh yeah, sorry about that. I take accountability and we repair. It's a quick repair instead of like this giant ordeal. >> Yeah. >> And then I just follow through and I do the dishes more. >> Yeah. >> And then she's like and then I'm like, she's so much happier. >> Yeah. >> Like, isn't this isn't this weird? How she's she's Yeah, it's because she felt safe enough to talk to you about the things that bothered her and vice versa.
(59:18) The last thing I'll say on this is that can I pick on women for a second because 80% >> Oh, yeah. >> 80% >> [laughter] >> 80% of the conflicts are initiated by women, okay? Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. >> said 80? >> 80% of conflicts are initiated by women. >> I'm going to write that down. >> for me as a therapist to validate my male clients, honestly.
(59:37) >> Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with that. Here's what I am saying. That means that they're usually the initiator, okay? And then they're usually responding to their partner getting defensive, yada yada yada. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Here's the Here's the thing though.
(59:53) Women often times I don't mean to I don't mean to talk generally. I'm just saying like this is what I'm seeing. >> Yeah. >> If women are open to taking a little accountability for this, >> Yeah. >> here's what I'm seeing. They're not the ones getting told. So when when a man comes to her and says, "Hey, actually something's on my mind.
(1:00:15) Hey that Hey Hey this This made me feel unequal. Not right after she says something. I'm not saying that I'm not saying she he should counter blame. I'm just saying like, you know, randomly he's like, "Hey, can I talk to you about something? When this happened, here's how I'm feeling." What I'm seeing is there's a ton of women that have no idea how to validate >> Yes.
(1:00:32) >> because one, they feel like they've been keeping score in their relationship for a long time. So they're like, "Buddy, you don't have a complaint. You're not allowed to complain. Look at the scoreboard. >> Yeah, I am way ahead. >> Way ahead, bro. You should I would close your mouth if I were you. That's not going to lead anywhere.
(1:00:46) >> It's like somebody's mom. >> [laughter] >> Somebody's mom said that to him. >> But two, you haven't been the one that's practicing listening and holding space. >> Mhm. >> So So then So then you immediately get defensive and you unintentionally invalidate him, which is the same thing that you get on to him for for doing.
(1:01:05) So um often times often times there's there's things that we both need to learn. Um like let's not pretend that she's going to be the perfect val that when he comes and he's like, "Hey, you hurt my feelings when this happened." She's like, "Oh, yeah, absolutely. Let me Let me hold space for you." She's like, "Why don't you man up? Like what are you talking about I hurt your feelings? Like >> Yeah.
(1:01:24) >> Plus, you don't have a right to complain cuz >> Yes. >> Well, it is interesting because it it shines an interest it shines a harsh light on how culturally we've had this real push for men to be more emotionally available and more emotionally vulnerable. >> Absolutely. >> And then >> But, they're not being responded to in a way that we're You ask a man I I didn't mean to cut you off, but I just want to say one last thing about it.
(1:01:49) There's tons of men that I talk to and if they're honest, they would admit, I also don't feel safe to bring up a feeling or a hurt or a need um with my partner, with my female partner. >> Yeah. >> And that's a problem. >> Yeah. Well, and to your point earlier, maybe that's because we got with somebody familiar. And so >> True. >> we are just reenacting the same cycle that we had with our primary attachment figure in the first place.
(1:02:11) >> Yeah. >> Where we never felt safe to bring up any needs or >> she has been an anxious attacher, people pleaser, and has abandoned herself for so long that the the resentment has silently built that I now resent you. So, if you bring something up to me, I have no ability or capacity to hold space because of the unexpressed resentment that I have towards you.
(1:02:36) That's also a huge problem. >> Absolutely. >> I'm not saying it's justified. I'm saying we we got to get to the root problems of all of these things. >> For sure. I would say that a part of that percentage of 88% of conflict being initiated by women is also because men consistently minimize and ignore their own needs.
(1:03:05) >> 100%. >> And so, therefore, they just don't bring them up. So, yes, it's the combination of well, when I have tried to do it, she gets defensive, same thing that she's complaining that I do, and so that shuts me down. Uh But I see a lot of men that when we get to this part of the work where we're having them work on like things that they need to bring up and things that they need to say, they are the story they make up is that she's going to respond this way.
(1:03:32) >> Yeah. >> And then we get into like, "Okay, well, sure. Like, let's talk about the the like data points that um where she has responded that way." And it's like, "Well, I she I don't know, cuz I've actually never really done it." >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, this is like an older story that you were the thing that you go to bring up, your feelings, your needs are not going to be >> Yeah.
(1:03:56) >> cared for. Like, yeah, maybe there's some data where you have tried it before and she shuts it down. But a lot of men I see, it's like they've never even really tried it with her. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> They just assume that she's going to shut it down the way that it's always been shut down. And we're talking about safety in the context of the relationship.
(1:04:15) So, there's like the the coregulation that happens between >> I love coregulation so much, yeah. >> Of course you do. You're an anxious attachment. >> It's true. >> [laughter] >> Fair point. Golly. >> [laughter] >> Couldn't even finish your thought. >> I couldn't I had to It was a layup. >> Call it out. >> As an as a primarily avoidant attachment um myself, I >> I knew I didn't like you.
(1:04:46) >> [laughter] >> Actually, I knew I I knew I liked you. >> That's so weird. >> I just walked in here and really wanted you to like me. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Been trying to get you to like me this whole time. >> I've been I've been ready to I'm just waiting for this episode to be over so I can leave. >> [laughter] >> Yeah.
(1:05:01) >> Um No, but a huge growth area for me is to lean into more coregulation because I can think that like, "Oh, I'm self-regulating." when really >> Restraining. >> I am >> Restraining. >> Restraining. I'm pulling back. I'm like going in my shell. >> Yeah. >> Um >> I didn't even go on my avoidant rant. I'm not even I'm not even We don't have time for that.
(1:05:24) >> That's part two. >> Yeah. >> So, what I was going to say is uh Oh, I lost my train of thought. >> I'm sorry. >> It's okay. Oh, the psychol- the safety, the coregulation. >> Yeah. >> Um there's like coregulation that happens between us. There's also this element of self-regulation, which is if I >> [snorts] >> am putting all of the uh >> Reassurance.
(1:05:52) >> of my need that I'm about to bring up. If I'm putting all of the weight on that need being important and validated or important and and worthy of anything, um if all that is determined by the other person's reaction, I'm like screwed. >> I would view I I view it in a different way.
(1:06:14) So, I would I would rephrase it personally, cuz what I've had to work through is like is like reassurance. Um like as an anxious attacher, we we are naturally um I'm going to I'm going to default to I need you to provide my reassurance in this relationship. Um but in a safe relationship, in a healthy relationship, in a mutually respectful, equal relationship, the anxious attacher needs to learn through healing and yada yada yada that like I need to trust this person so much that like, "Hey, if something's up, you tell me. Cool?" And you're like,
(1:06:50) "Cool. Something's up. I'll tell you." Then I don't need to go to you every time I feel a little bit of anxiety. Are we okay? >> Yes. >> Oof. I don't Are we Are we good? You're like, "Yeah, we're good." And then tomorrow I'm like, "Are we good?" Cuz you just looked away. You've been kind of distant. "Are we good? You're like yeah.
(1:07:12) So, that will annoy that avoidant so much and they don't want to they're like you're relying too much on me for this stuff. So, it is I'm a big big proponent on you should rely on your partner. >> Yeah. >> Your partner needs to be a consistently safe presence for you so that you trust them. The problem with anxious attachment is like I say we're the perpetual victims where we think it's the avoidant that's yada yada.
(1:07:33) But, um you actually just you need to be able to have some even with a safe partner you're they're still going to like trigger you a little bit. So, there's certain work that you need to do in yourself where you're like I'm I can self-regulate. I trust this relationship. I don't whether that's sometimes it's like making a list of the when they do things that are loving and the way that they show up consistently make a list of that.
(1:07:55) And then when you feel like they're just being a little distant, you look at your list and you remind yourself they told me that they would tell me when something's up. I don't need to go to them and be like are we okay? >> Mhm. >> Cuz they're going to that's going to >> Yeah. I think we're we're on the same page cuz I think that the reassurance is important and being able to rely on that.
(1:08:14) >> You you mentioned it you mentioned needs. >> I'm talk yeah, I guess I'm talking about like if I >> Like name a specific >> I'm coming to like let's say I'm like I feel >> I need more I need more what? Emotional connection. How? >> Yeah, I guess when I said needs I guess I'm talking about the feeling. I'm talking about just before I even get to the need like I feel I'm feeling alone I whatever.
(1:08:36) >> Sure. I'm yeah, I'm feeling disconnected. >> I I believe you guys can tell me if I'm if I'm off here. >> You're not wrong. You can believe whatever you want. >> Wait, let me finish hearing you. >> I I won't I won't agree with you but you're allowed to you're allowed to believe. >> Like I need my wife to reassure that loneliness or to validate it like you said.
(1:08:56) >> Yeah. >> Uh and I need to be able to validate and reassure my own feeling first. >> Yes. >> And then bring it to her. Because if I don't and I'm just like here it is and I'm bringing it to her and then I what I'm saying is I'm relying on your reaction in that moment to be the thing that completely validates that feeling.
(1:09:17) Where you might get defensive or like >> Yeah. >> uh It's like I I'm validating in myself, okay, this I'm bringing this to you because it is important to me. >> Correct. >> And if you're in a moment where like you can't hear that for for whatever reason, it doesn't mean that that thing is is not important. >> Yeah, yeah.
(1:09:41) This is they're both true for me. They're both essential for me. Like I want anxious attachers to validate their own feelings as real. However, it cannot be discounted that the relationship will also crumble if I if I can't come to you and say, "I'm feeling lonely." And you have no interest in coregulation. Um so, they're both extremely important in my in my opinion.
(1:10:03) I'm not I'm not looking to you to solely Like they're probably like two different questions, but I'm not smart enough to like figure them out, but but you need both of them because if because the classic avoidant attachment thing to say is it's not my job to like validate your feelings. Like you Or it's not my job to I don't know what the exact wording is, but like >> I can tell you because this is the this is a recurring con This has been a recurring conflict with my wife and I because I'm avoidant. She's anxious.
(1:10:32) >> is >> Um it is not where I would be like at times in my in the more unhealthy places like it's not my full responsibility to uh whatever you just >> finish that sentence as it's not my full responsibility to reassure you. >> Yeah. >> I would agree with that. But I would not agree with it's not my full responsibility to like validate you.
(1:10:56) Cuz like or coregulate. It's like, well, it is. It is your full like you're my you're my partner. You're my confidant. You're my You're my lover. Like if if you if not you, who? I can't I can't co-regulate by myself. I can't feel I'm a big proponent and I you can't you can't build trust and safety by yourself in a relationship.
(1:11:17) >> Ooh, correct. >> That's good. You can't. I That's what makes relationships so tricky for people is like I actually need you. >> Mhm. >> To like I need you to show up consistently. I need you to be That's That's what we don't understand about needs and like that's what breaks my heart about people that are in these dysfunctional or toxic relationships is like none of their needs are getting met and they're not fully aware of like Bro, you you need all those things.
(1:11:43) Like you're you're you're missing out on all of them. >> Yeah. >> And you're But you feel stuck in that relationship and that's an episode for another time of like how we, you know, get stuck in those relationships. >> I can tell you the primary reason why I see men who have a hard time with what we're talking about, which is like I'm not fully responsible for validating or reassuring you is it's like a common thread that most of those men had an experience with their mother >> Mhm.
(1:12:13) >> where she over relied on them for her >> It's like a codependent thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> She over relied on them for her to emotionally be okay. And so they >> Ooh. >> filled into that role >> Yeah. >> where they they felt like they had to be the person to co-regulate her because if I if I don't, then mom's not okay.
(1:12:32) >> And they're so averse to that. Now they're going to push it away when they see somebody trying to >> Correct. They experience that and for most mostly for avoidance. So they experience that same energy from their partner and it's like that old thing that's like >> Yes. >> It's like the anger that they the anger and frustration that they couldn't express to mom because mom's caregiver and I if I do that, it's going to threaten the attachment.
(1:12:55) So what I have to do is reject myself, abandon myself to then be there for mom. All of that old anger now gets redirected toward wife and it's like I'm not responsible for you. >> Yeah. >> Which it is okay what? You made a face. >> I would say yes and to that. Like I would say and for those men like I think there's a lot of men who are avoidant who don't have that experience.
(1:13:23) >> Sure, I'm not saying every man. I'm just saying it's a common theme that I see. >> Yeah, I mean I just mean like I think that the yes, that's common and for those who didn't experience that I think they also saw their male attachment figure be avoidant. >> Correct. >> And so they they saw like this is >> the way it is, yeah.
(1:13:43) And some of them had the the cocktail of both of those. Dad is avoidant and because dad is avoidant and mom can't rely on dad, >> Yeah. >> mom then unintentionally relies on son for >> Yeah. >> that connection. >> Yeah. No, that's such a good point. >> Yeah. >> That's a really good point. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like sometimes what I would want to say to anxious people is like if you if you give him more rope then like what he should do is use that cuz sometimes sometimes it's like the the the fierce independence, you know, and
(1:14:14) the clinginess. When you're clingy is like when he's the most fiercely independent and he's like, you know, I need to get out of here. So like if you be less clingy then then but that's the thing like not all men are going to be >> Yeah. >> that he needs to you if you're avoidantly attached you need to like lean in when your partner is not being super clingy and practice the lean more into the relationship.
(1:14:39) >> Yeah. >> Um if that makes any sense. >> Well, like the clinginess is simply an attempt to sustain connection. >> Yes. >> So right. But if that person is actively trying to regulate and be like, "Okay, I'm not going to be super clingy." Um that avoidant now needs to be like, "Okay, my partner's uh um respecting my space.
(1:15:00) And therefore, be more dependent, be more emotionally connected, be more like Yeah, I don't know if that's >> Your desire to run is as problematic as it as the desire to be clingy and your partner feels that. >> Yeah. >> We either need to come to Florida and do a part two or just come hang out next time you come back.
(1:15:20) >> a lot, so yeah. >> Because there's >> [laughter] >> We need the avoidant side. >> Uh I want to end with this question. >> Okay. >> I hear a lot of men saying that the relationship can feel like working on the marriage or the relationship can feel like an exhausting challenge. >> Yeah. >> And what they desire is for it to feel like a restful place.
(1:15:41) >> Yeah. >> What would you say is There's obviously many things we've talked about. >> But, what's What do you think is the most important thing that the couple can focus on to help it feel more safe as opposed to this exhausting challenge? >> about the couple, I'm just talking about men. I'm just going to pick on men now.
(1:15:58) Um I mean, one thing that I'll say, one thing that comes to mind, I don't want to forget the question, but one thing that comes to mind is it irks me cuz I don't hear a lot of men complaining about all the tools and skills that they need to learn to make money in their business. I'm not saying women aren't >> [laughter] >> I'm not saying men I'm not saying women don't have businesses.
(1:16:21) I'm just saying I don't hear men complaining about all the skills and the tools that they need to learn. Go to the And the conferences that they have to go to. >> Love a growth mindset. >> they'll spend $100,000 with Alex Hormozi so he can teach them skills to make their business better. >> Yeah. >> I do not hear them saying, but then I'm like, "Well, here's some relational skills.
(1:16:39) Oh my gosh, this is so exhausting." >> [laughter] >> Is it? Is it so exhausting or do you just prioritize the things that you care about? >> [snorts] >> And so let's be careful. Let's be careful saying that you just really care about this relationship. >> Yeah. >> But you're not putting in the work like you will with your hobbies or your sports.
(1:17:00) You know everybody that plays on that team, you know everybody on Alabama's roster. >> Yeah. >> You don't know your wife's Alabama fans. >> [laughter] >> You don't know you don't know your wife's love language. >> Yeah. >> You don't know what she would say how she would feel loved and valued most. You don't you don't know that information.
(1:17:17) And if I tell you to ask, you you you kind of dismiss it. Like oh my gosh, all of this emotional stuff again? Yeah, this emotional stuff again. Like I have countless people in my DMs literally every day that are that are like I I read these horror stories about them where they're like I unintentionally neglected all this stuff and they're mostly men and I'm sorry for that.
(1:17:37) I unintentionally neglected all these things in our relationship all the things that you talk about that that a couple years ago I would have looked at you and said, oh my gosh, this emotional stuff again? Like this is just annoying. I neglected all these things and now she's gone. >> Oh. >> She's gone and I don't think she's coming back.
(1:17:51) >> Yeah. >> And now we have to navigate this. I'm not saying that that men cause the majority of divorces. I'm I'm not here to like extrapolate that. I'm just saying I get these messages a lot and it breaks my heart. I'm like I wish that I wish that something could have changed. I wish she could have done things differently.
(1:18:10) I wish you could have done things differently. That's my whole job. So so I do agree that I do agree that there is an exhaustive I can validate the feeling that you are exhausted because a lot of times this is a foreign It's kind of like It's kind of like you asking me to learn Japanese. It would be exhausting. >> Yeah. >> You're like, bro, I need you to learn Japanese by four the next time that we talk.
(1:18:31) I'm like, this is going to take so much work. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> But that's because I don't place a lot of value in learning Japanese. >> Mhm. >> The but I want I just need you to appreciate the value that learning how to be more emotionally connected with your partner. >> Yeah. >> The value in that.
(1:18:47) You're not You're not appropriately seeing the value. Now, the last thing I'll say cuz I need we know we need to go. Sometimes you're exhausted in your relationship because it's a dysfunctional relationship. Things are exhausting. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> On both sides. When things are dysfunctional, when they don't work right, you know, it's exhausting.
(1:19:04) >> Right. >> And so So, sometimes when you when you make that counseling appointment, when you read that book together, when you watch some YouTube videos together, when you go to her and say, "I want this relationship to feel fulfilling for both of us. I want this to relationship to feel great. Let's both figure out what needs to change.
(1:19:25) If you think I'm the problem, then like that's fine, but like let's get honest about what actually needs to change in this relationship because relationships aren't inherently supposed to feel chronically exhausting or confusing or harmful or hurtful. That's not the way that they're supposed to feel. So, something's off and we need to address it.
(1:19:44) So, take that exhausting feeling and apply it in a positive way. Like, all right, how can we how can we make we make this run smoother? >> Yeah. >> Um and you'd be shocked at how when you approach that with humility and self-reflection and maturity, um you get a lot of answers to like >> Mhm. >> They might not be the answers you want, but you'll get answers.
(1:20:04) >> Yeah. Jimmy, you make like you make this so easy to digest. Like, hearing you talk about it, it's relatable. It feels like I I'm what I am hearing it from a friend, but I think the reason that people follow you and enjoy your content so much is it feels so relatable and digestable. And I'm really grateful that you listened to that part of you that was like, I have to spend some of my life on this.
(1:20:33) >> It's very impactful. >> been very impactful. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> And you're really good at it. >> Yeah. >> And we'll we'll link all of your stuff in the show notes for people to go consume all of the amazing content you have. >> Yeah, if you haven't seen Jimmy before, get ready.
(1:20:49) You have lots of stuff to consume. [laughter] This man creates incredible content. So, >> very kind. >> thanks for being here, man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, can't wait to do can't wait to do part two. Well, um to everybody listening, we're glad you're here. Keep showing up. You're worth it. >> Hey, thanks for tuning in to another episode.
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