Why You Overthink, Procrastinate & People-Please | Dr. Riri Trivedi & Dr. Gunjan Trivedi

Why You Overthink, Procrastinate & People-Please | Dr. Riri Trivedi & Dr. Gunjan Trivedi

Author Name:The Penguin Podcast

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@penguinindiaPodcast

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zc8aZQv5Ug





Title: Why You Overthink, Procrastinate & People-Please | Dr. Riri Trivedi & Dr. Gunjan Trivedi

Author Name: The Penguin Podcast

Description: Timestamps:
00:00 – Highlights
02:28 – What’s Wrong With Me vs What Happened to Me?
05:23 – Are Anxiety & Depression Symptoms of Something Deeper?
07:59 – How Childhood Experiences Shape Adult Behaviour
11:33 – What Actually Counts as Childhood Trauma?
13:35 – Emotional Neglect & the Hidden Impact of Trauma
14:45 – People-Pleasing, Procrastination & Perfectionism
16:24 – Why Do We Become People-Pleasers?
18:27 – Is Procrastination a Freeze Response?
18:44 – Fight, Flight, Freeze & Fawn Explained
20:17 – How Childhood Trauma Affects Emotional Resilience
23:02 – Positive Childhood Experiences & Resilience
24:42 – Childhood Trauma in Indian Joint Families
26:41 – Can Parents Repair the Damage?
27:40 – Why Some People Struggle to Ask for Help
29:55 – How Parents Pass Down Their Belief Systems
30:28 – How to Assess Your Childhood Experiences
31:56 – When Should You Consider Therapy?
34:01 – The Hidden Reason Behind Perfectionism
35:41 – Can Workaholism Be a Coping Mechanism?
36:52 – A Successful Person With Hidden Childhood Trauma
40:00 – Why Success Doesn’t Always Make You Feel Successful
41:13 – Feeling Lonely Even When Surrounded by People
43:04 – Understanding Other People’s Trauma Responses
43:32 – Can Being Obsessed With Punctuality Be a Trauma Response?
45:08 – Can You Heal From Childhood Trauma?
46:13 – How Childhood Memories Shape Adult Behaviour
47:27 – What Can Stop Someone From Healing?
49:51 – Why Healing Takes Different Amounts of Time
51:07 – Recovery, Sleep & Lifestyle
52:14 – Self-Regulation vs Professional Help
53:56 – Is Recovery From Childhood Trauma Possible?
55:54 – Why You May Wake Up With Anxiety
56:53 – Why Panic Attacks Can Happen at a Specific Time
58:13 – Why Someone Fought With Their Husband Every Sunday
58:55 – Why Some People Struggle to Get Out of Bed
59:49 – Can Childhood Trauma Resurface Decades Later?
1:00:13 – How Sounds Can Trigger Old Memories
1:00:39 – Why Someone Can Panic During Exams
1:01:49 – Why Certain Times of Day Can Feel Difficult
1:03:22 – Recognising Hidden Patterns From Your Past
1:04:05 – Final Thoughts: Don’t Just “Move On”

What if the habits you call your personality — people-pleasing, perfectionism, procrastination, overworking, difficulty asking for help — are actually responses you learned much earlier in life?

In this conversation, @riritrivedi and Dr. Gunjan Trivedi talks about the hidden ways childhood experiences can shape how we think, react, work, build relationships and see ourselves as adults. At the heart of the discussion is a simple but powerful shift: instead of repeatedly asking “What’s wrong with me?”, ask “What happened to me?”

Through research, neuroscience and real-life case studies, they explore how seemingly ordinary behaviours can sometimes be connected to earlier experiences of emotional neglect, criticism, fear, instability or isolation. The conversation also looks at fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses, and how these coping patterns can eventually begin to feel like personality traits.

From people-pleasing and perfectionism to overworking, anxiety and unexpected emotional triggers, this episode is about understanding the patterns behind your behaviour — and learning that those patterns do not necessarily have to remain permanent. Dr. Riri and Dr. Gunjan also discuss self-regulation, when professional support may be required, and how learned responses can change over time.

"What Happened to Me? vs What’s Wrong with Me?- Indian Perspectives on Childhood Trauma and Recovery" by Gunjan Y Trivedi, Riri G Trivedi, Hemalatha Ramani

Reframes the way we understand childhood trauma through an Indian lens. Drawing on 3,000+ interviews, peer-reviewed research and real-life stories, the book explores how experiences such as emotional neglect, comparison, bullying and family dynamics can shape anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, burnout and relationships later in life. It also offers practical tools for self-understanding, recovery and building emotional resilience.

Get your copy now: https://amzn.in/d/0bnXKziK




#ChildhoodTrauma #MentalHealth #Overthinking #Neuroscience #SelfImprovement #Psychology #NervousSystemHealing

Transcript:
(00:00) Why people commit suicide? One would think sexual abuse. No, actually emotional abuse and neglect have a huge correlation with that and feeling of isolation, feeling of poor self worth, toxic shame. >> I would say the personality [music] I say people pleasing but now that I read your book and also what your stories are talking it's connected.
(00:19) >> They are not born with this. >> This is a behavioral thing. When you say people pleasing, imagine a child in a home environment. Mother is afraid of father. Any small trigger may generate [music] extreme reaction in a parent. >> So it's no different from a battlefield for a child. >> But everybody believes that [music] they have had trauma. Okay.
(00:40) Like I don't think so I've had any trauma when I was growing up. But I do question myself again and again that what is wrong with I know so many parents who just download their belief systems on the childhip. So this book has a lot of selfwork that people can do. So when they go through the book they can assess their trauma.
(00:59) They can find out how much is the mental health risk that they have. And there are there are more than I think 55 graphics. >> So you think this is also an Indian household problem like is this very specific [music] to Indian household and way of parenting >> because when you say Indian household our strength is joint [music] family traditionally. Correct.
(01:17) >> We have had both. It's a double-edged sword. My boss is upset with me. because childhood mother grandmother fought, mother was putting anger on him, mother and father had issues and and a long list. So, so memory cannot be deleted but it can be reconsolidated >> in our everyday culture you know people pleasing procrastination [music] all over work professionalism all of these things over cararing shutting [music] down in fact you know they just say oh it's a bad day move on nobody pays attention to this behavior also okay
(01:50) maybe this is the reason why I'm suffering from all the anxiety this is the reason why I'm suffering [music] from >> so connecting the dots is important dot so that is what we've tried to do in the book where we've we've attempted to help people connect the dots and That's why we've given so many case studies.
(02:04) >> The journey measured in numbers is clear. >> Is it possible to heal from all of this? How much is it possible to heal from childhood trauma? >> It is possible because [music] our brain has neuroplasticity. >> So most grief when you lose a person, >> grief is expected. But grief after 5 years has something irrational that requires therapy.
(02:29) Are you somebody who constantly keeps thinking what is wrong with me or are you somebody who gets up in the morning and goes like what is happening why can't I figure this out what is wrong with me today I have two authors Dr. Ritravedi and Dr. Gunjani who have who are requesting you to change that question.
(02:50) They want you to change that question from what is wrong with me to asking yourself what happened with me with the help of this book. But this not about this book only. This conversation is going to tell you so many things. It's going to tell you how to figure out what is what has happened to you. Why do you behave in a certain man manner? If you're a people pleaser, if you are a procrastinator, if you're a perfectionist, what has led to you being all of that? These all are personality types.
(03:18) But to be very honest, this is what I learned that it comes from a childhood trauma and childhood trauma is of many kinds. So let's get into the conversation and understand from Dr. Reiri and Dr. Gungjin what is the journey and how can you overcome it. Let's go. So yeah like I was asking you really uh you had written a book with Penguin before this which was on parenting and then now you both have come together to write this book on childhood trauma and uh there's this one beautiful thing which you've written in the book when I was going through it
(03:48) preparing for this podcast. It says that you guys say in the book that replace what's wrong with me to what happened to me. >> So let's go back to that one line. We're going to talk about childhood trauma today. We're going to talk about how people grow up with it and what basically draws us to back.
(04:08) Why should we draw back ourselves to the childhood trauma? Because all of us somewhere or the other in our lives have led to this question that what is wrong with me? Oh yeah, what is happening to me? And in everyday situations, I wouldn't even say this is comes to an epidome of a realization in life. Every morning sometimes when I get up and I can't get out of bed I just want to ask myself what is wrong with me and then you have said don't ask that you said ask what happened to me so let's talk about that why do you want us to replace this
(04:40) >> yeah so uh I would say that my parenting book actually came from this book though it was published earlier okay >> but my entire approach on parenting has been from the backdrop of all these years of work I have done in the area of childhood trauma including my PhD, right? >> And childhood trauma per se, childhood is where parents and educators play the biggest role.
(05:02) >> Okay? >> Right? So obviously when when my when my decadel long work is on childhood trauma and the outcomes obviously I said that the first step to prevent this and educate people about this is to start with parenting because we saw that parents have a big role in that. So that's where my parenting book came first right about the title uh we both will have our own perspectives uh but I really feel that today when people have issues or when they have a problem even when they go to mental health practitioners usually the question is I
(05:32) want to know what's wrong with me like you said you know do I and what's wrong with me means oh uh do I have anxiety do I have depression do I have insomnia you know do I I have relationship issues um you know I feel very depressed in the evenings I feel lonely Um I get rejections all the time. All of this is what we feel is wrong with me.
(05:51) No, I have a pattern of always spending too much money. All of that. And we say that well all of this that you're saying is wrong with me is actually the outcome or the symptom or the result of something that is has started much much earlier. Okay. So we believe that what we are addressing the title came because most people are just stay with that what is wrong with me and how can I fix it.
(06:16) So if I have anxiety how do I fix my anxiety and we say no we we don't think anxiety is a problem we think anxiety is how the problem that started much much earlier is showing up finally in you. Oh good. >> And that is where the whole backdrop, the whole back picture comes is that what led you to anxiety? What has led you to depression? What has led you to have breakdowns every time that there is a difficult situation? And that is where we said we should ask this question that what really happened to me and when we
(06:45) ask this question suddenly the perspective shifts because then also there is the thing of labels. Today people have these things you know oh um you know I'm I'm you know I have bipolar I'm an anxious I have ADHD okay I have this so so people are so used to having these labels and they stay for life you know so we said no we want we don't want this because we worked so hard to to really uncover what is what is below those labels and when we change that the labels drop >> right because this is a million-dollar
(07:16) question what is wrong with me I think that is one question which I have had calls from my friends crying 12:00 in the night calling me and saying aasta I don't know what is wrong with me I have had colleagues I have had my sister my parents also sometimes you know they've aged but still and in every situation yeah I think this is a human behavior problem also that in somewhere or the in every situation we feel there is something wrong with me but then when you say to replace it I think that's almost tracing back a journey right
(07:47) >> yes on what brought me to this brought me to what what brought me to this point to manifest >> this kind of a physical health issue or a mental health issue and we go back there if we want to solve it at a root cause. >> Yeah. >> So so couple of examples if if somebody has depression that's let's talk at length in the book that two people come with same levels of depression but the journey or experiences can be very different.
(08:10) >> Okay. >> So my uh training and experience uh engineering global corporations is solving the problem. So as I looked at research of depression, can I predict depression first? Can I measure it and then predict based on certain parameters? And we were able to predict depression. >> Okay.
(08:31) Then then anxiety, insomnia, over well-being, risk of trauma. So this is one aspect. >> So outcome is not happening by chance. There are parameters, experiences that happen which are likely to result not causing. they are associated with higher risk. So for example certain levels of childhood trauma, repeated exposure to emotional neglect which no nobody talks about.
(08:54) Everybody talks about sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional isolation, emotional abuse, peer isolation have the highest risk of experiencing four times more compared to those who have not had sex experience. This is one component. Second, I'll talk about recent experiences. Two mothers came to us. Both were hitting their children.
(09:14) M >> so this is a behavioral outcome behavioral outcome something is wrong with me I'm eating my child >> both have history of being heaped either to themselves or to a sibling >> one of them complained we again talk about that in the book is my child is a 2-year-old threw a slipper at me and I'm upset and I have started hitting the child >> later we identified that child was doing multiple things and this was an outcome of child being frustrated seeking attention But the sleeper took her back to childhood where father used to beat up
(09:48) the mother in front of this little girl using the sleeper >> and therefore sleeper triggered it and then she just had automatic reaction. So these are two examples one measurable the other is behavioral which led us to looking at scientific research and say well this is an expected outcome unfortunately let's identify trace it back all the way to where it started.
(10:11) People are not born with this understanding. >> Oh, so basically you're saying that whatever her trigger for with with the slipper was is because of what happened in her childhood and that now leads to her current life. >> Yeah. So it was it was Yeah. So it was not the child. It was that slipper that [clears throat] triggered her.
(10:30) So if it if she didn't have that experience, maybe she she would have just said, "Oh, it's a three-year-old kid throwing something with the other mother." Other mother says, "My child again pulled my hair." Oh okay mother had experience of her mother around age eight or grade I forget now the details pulled her hair for something she had done and mother was [clears throat] upset and pulled the hair so much that she not only cried she was isolated for a couple of days >> so there are specific triggers measurable objective triggers and the
(11:00) roots are somewhere else that is why in the same situation two people won't react the [snorts] same way right so if this mother didn't have a history in childhood where you know pulling hair was associated with pain and humiliation or hurt. She may not have taken that behavior that seriously of her child. She would say what's the big deal but that triggered her a lot.
(11:21) So >> in fact I told her my daughter used to sit on my shoulder and she would hold my hair to just as a handle and this is normal but for that she won't take it because she's triggered. Right. >> Wow. because I always thought that you know um and I'll come to this point in a in a short while because I have one more small thing to ask but so okay trauma is very physical usually in nature right and when we say trauma the first thing that comes to one's mind is they must have seen some kind of death some accident some abuse something sexual but
(11:57) pulling a child's hair is is really can be associated with trauma [snorts] and secondly So is this something which we can say that there is a defi definition of trauma which is what what what is the definition of trauma? >> So when you say feelings >> huh people assume trauma with like >> witnessing horrible situations like you know murder, death, accident or being physically beaten up or sexually abused.
(12:22) But actually trauma also includes emotional abuse, emotional neglect. So emotional abuse means what? constantly criticizing the child, nagging the child, constantly correcting like you know you're not sitting properly, you're not eating properly, your handwriting can be better, you can't speak in front of people properly, oh you know look at your skin is so dark why don't you do something about it so that constant criticizing nagging comparing even not hitting the child but even threatening to hit that if you don't eat your food
(12:49) I'll throw you out of the house if you don't do this I'm going to beat you up can also be equated to >> this is trauma this is emotional abuse and the problem is emotional abuse and emot Emotional neglect are very subtle forms of trauma. So you can't see the scars on the body. >> Yeah. >> The scars are in the consciousness of the child, the soul of the child.
(13:07) Emotional neglect for example is another trauma which in Indian clients don't even understand like they say emotional what is this? >> So can I say that somebody who is in my in my eyes somebody who loves people pleasing or somebody who loves to you know do you know there are few people who just step ahead and do something without even asking.
(13:27) they'll go 10 steps ahead. They'll you know >> could there be a connection to their childhood as well and they are this >> that's what I'm coming to. So when I when I was talking of the two emo two two subtle forms of trauma I would like to really point out here that emotional abuse and emotional neglect as well as bullying are the kind of traumas that have very strong connection to suicide behaviors and selfharming behaviors in adulthood.
(13:54) So when we are looking at high number of suicides why people commit suicide one would think sexual abuse no actually emotional abuse and neglect have a huge correlation with that and feeling of isolation feeling of poor self worth toxic shame because emotional abuse criticism neglect results in a child feeling I'm worthless I am useless I I don't matter >> and that results in all of these people pleasing and other behaviors so in the book we have a whole section on hidden footprints of trauma where so coming to your point and I think will also explain
(14:25) that in more depth is that >> trauma isn't always uh you know where people just you know go violent and you know you say all right this must be he must be because of trauma no trauma behaviors can show up in very subtle ways >> which is what we've covered in the hidden footprints of like you said peopleleasing behaviors you know always overaring >> yeah there are two three things which I want to ask you guys there is procrastination there is the whole thing of being a perfectionist There's a whole thing of people pleasing and a lot of
(14:55) them like overwork, shutting down, you know, all of this and these are very regular types like usually I feel that this is a personality type like I would say personality I see people pleasing but now that I read your book and also what your stories are talking it's connected is what >> you're not born with this >> this is a behavioral thing okay and >> really talks about this so so when you say people pleasing >> it's connected to the other two things you talked about Okay.
(15:23) So imagine as a child before I go into people pleasing I want to talk about yes there is physical imprint of traumatic experiences. So we have worked with people who who have seen a murder. >> Yeah. >> Who have lost a parent. Correct. Sexual abuse severe physical abuse even to a sibling not to me but if my sibling has been beaten up we are people who panic in front of us in the chair in the 40s.
(15:45) >> So so let's be clear that has an impact >> that is there. >> Okay. And primarily during childhood adults somehow manage and recover also children also recover but there's a process that is required >> subtle things emotional abuse peer isolation uh and emotional neglect has the strongest swing on increased depression in the adulthood compared to physical abuse and sexual abuse in our practice.
(16:10) >> Okay. Therefore, if somebody has had emotional neglect or peer isolation, not aggressive bullying, isolation has a strongest increase in depression compared to those group of individuals who have not had such experiences. So now go back to the next behavioral part. When you say people pleasing, imagine a child in a home environment, >> mother is afraid of father.
(16:31) >> Mhm. >> Or vice versa. We've seen both. Any small trigger may generate extreme reaction in a parent. >> Okay. >> So it's no different from a battlefield for a child. Now child is always alert. >> Child has two prime directives. First hope this doesn't happen. >> Correct? And this leads to second directive that all I can do anything I can do to keep my people happy I will do it.
(17:02) So even something wrong you have to say or lie the child will silly silly things they lie and this root uh of violence in the family environment leads to generally people pleasing. >> So people pleasing also is a need where the child develops this program that I in order to be loved in order to exist in order to be safe I have to keep others happy because if my mom is upset she's going to hit me or if my mom is upset she's going to beat me.
(17:28) If dad is upset then dad and mom are going to fight and the home is going to be very scary for me. So the child at a very young age starts learning that if I want to survive in this house, if I want to feel safe, the only way to cope up is to keep everybody happy. If mom, dad, every and to do to keep everybody happy, what should I do? I should focus on their deeds first. I should always say yes.
(17:47) I should not say no. If they so you know and and then it gets reinforced when he the child is appreciated for it. Who doesn't like a people pleasing child? Everybody loves a child who says, "Uncle, you are so nice." Oh, you know, mommy, thank you for >> But that's coming from a bad trauma that >> it's coming from the need of the same child.
(18:12) If child is abused emotionally or physically, you have to put this in certain order is going to be upset. >> My father is or my grandmother or grandfather. So the child learns to do things in a way that will please them. This is perfectionism. >> Oh, >> somewhere this is connected. >> Yeah. >> The other aspect is when this is not possible for a child, >> child just stops doing everything.
(18:33) >> Procrastination, >> procrastination, >> freeze response. It's a free >> these are interconnected in the context not necessarily physical violence but verbal violence or silent treatment. All of them are interconnect. >> So I would also give a a neuroscience kind of a perspective that when our body goes in fight and flight, there are four responses.
(18:54) Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. >> Fight is so whenever a child is in danger or feels endangered in the home, first is either the child will rebel which is a fight response. >> Flight response is the child will you know um hide somewhere, hide behind a sofa, go in the room and keep away from that. That is a running away response. Flight response.
(19:11) >> Freeze response is the child becomes numb. Child doesn't feel anything. You know, okay you guys fight. I will keep looking at my videos. I will do my coloring while the parents are happily fighting away. That is a freeze response. Fawn response is when a child learns to please other people in order to be safe.
(19:28) All the four are stress responses. Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. And we see that all around us >> and when they grow adult that leads to the personality types. >> Absolutely. So the people pleaser will be the life of the party. But you see that a lot of these people who are comedians, entertainers have severe depression.
(19:47) Sometimes they go through major breakdowns. Right. So that is that it's because it's a coping structure. It's not their authentic personality. They have coped up like Samas I would give you. He talks about it right. He was bullied so much in school. He was bullied like and then >> he's created this persona where he now bullies in a fun way. Right.
(20:05) >> He said also he said I started cracking jokes. >> It's a coping it's a coping mechanism and that people think that's his personality that may not be his personality. >> So basically you can figure this out. I mean the crux of the conversation is that >> we learned it the hard way. We didn't start with this >> but as we looked at scientific evidence starting to measure anxiety, depression, wellbeing, it led to global work on that and unfortunately the work in India was missing.
(20:30) >> Okay. >> One or two research paper if I recall in 2017 18. So when we started it >> initially when we started seeing people with emotional abuse growing up >> and those with none the depression difference was huge and I thought the numbers are wrong. something is not right with our then I looked at >> sorry could you explain that difference how huge >> so so say take a group of two people one group has experienced emotional abuse other had no such experience >> this adults come with much higher level of depression level compared to the
(21:02) those who have not experienced emotional abuse same data was for emotional neglect and peer isolation not as much for physical there was difference >> so we started looking at emotional abuse neglect and peer isolation and there is global research on that >> and now with 3,000 samples we have very clear understanding not not just that we also have identified that when an adult attempts suicide now by the way this is a difficult topic however I want to talk about it that if I go to a medical college and say 300 people to attempted
(21:34) suicide why 298 others have somehow managed in that stressful environment >> those who adults who attempt this have experienced Many of this emotional abuse, peer isolation, emotional neglect and possibly physical abuse but physical abuse doesn't happen in isolation. Child who is beaten up feels isolated. >> The verbal wall continues.
(21:55) It's not limited to that. So it's it's a combination of emotional abuse, physical abuse and emotional neglect. And this child when go he or she goes to school feels isolated before even the child goes to the school. >> So the resilience is damaged. See what childhood trauma does it. It kills your emotional resilience.
(22:12) So we try then we studied resilience. So what led us to this was we asked ourselves that >> we have people who come with severe childhood trauma. Some of them even in spite of trauma are still able to do well. >> Yeah. >> So why are these small group of people you know uh committing suicide and what's the difference? Difference was of course which trauma elements are present.
(22:34) Like Gungjan said the emotional abuse, emotional neglect, bullying have much deeper scars pushing them towards depression, loneliness and suicide versus physical and sexual abuse. And the second was why is because because of the trauma load their emotional resilience is killed. So what happens is the other group which did not break down had better emotional resilience which led us to then study emotional resilience and then to what makes a person emotionally resilient which then led us to positive childhood experiences which we have mentioned in
(23:03) >> good question. So we looked at people with adults >> who have high emotional resilience and low and that led to understanding that some of those with high resilience had extreme childhood trauma. So what happened in between these two that created this positive resilience led us to when we talk about that in the book positive childhood experiences.
(23:23) So if there is significant amount of exposure to negative experiences if the child has had significant positive experiences also this not only can be nullified but this creates something more positive >> okay >> than just nullifying. >> Yes. So this is why some people they say oh we went through so many hardships like they say my dad was an alcoholic and there was poverty we didn't have food and yet that person has become so successful.
(23:49) So we tried to understand and then there is there is global research but it is still very new. The research in the PCES which is a positive childhood experiences, AC is the adverse childhood experience and global research today shows that PCES or positive childhood experiences has the ability >> to reduce the negative impact of ACEs or childhood trauma in a person.
(24:08) >> However, when you see adult >> with low resilience, >> the roots are almost in the parenting experiences that the adult has had. And the parenting experiences which we have studied the parenting style is rooted in parents childhood experiences. >> So that's how it is interconnected. >> And this is not talked about together >> unfortunately not even independently.
(24:31) And that is where I believe that if you want to grow as a country >> beyond just per capita income and create human beings who are resilient and create global setups, we need this. So you think this is also an Indian household problem like is this very specific to Indian household and way of parenting >> because when you say Indian household our strength is joint family traditionally >> correct >> we have had both it's a double-edged sword.
(24:57) >> Ah oh my god you said it so well. >> Okay so when joint family there is a res there is a buffering adult >> which is a positive childhood experience. Correct. >> Okay. But also there is constant comparison. Oh, you got rank two but the cousin has got high. Something wrong with you. >> The child takes it and it shows up 20 years later.
(25:19) Sharma >> also Sharma. No, also we have had many clients who say that their parents did not fight but Chacha Chachi used to fight every day. Chacha would beat up the brothers. They would see their cousins being mercilessly thrashed every day which would cause them trauma you know. So family politics again big trauma.
(25:39) So even we've had people who've lived in a family of 25 30 people which you know according to Karan Johar type of movie it's a one big happy family in there also we've had people who felt isolated lonely invisible you know not supported and there are others who say that no because my grandparents were around even though my dad was an alcoholic mom had anger issues it was my grandparents who supported me took care of me saved me and these are the people who have positive childhood experiences because of the grandparents or that bua or that you know chachi and they say
(26:10) because of that today I'm not having the so much of an impact of the trauma >> so it is a double-edged sword >> it's double no >> so much of the impact so there are sometimes hidden patterns >> not necessarily the depression and the anxiety or >> but I think when you're living in a joint family especially in Indian household like if I'm a parent and I can see that okay my brother and sister-in-law are fighting so much and my child will be noticing this so if I'm aware well aware and I understand all of this. I can increase the positive the
(26:39) PCES so that the child. >> So we are telling parents today in fact in my social media and parenting workshops I keep telling them that see because parents tell me that damage now when they read these books they say oh my last 5 years 10 years I have beat up my child. I have done all the things you say I should not do.
(26:57) What should I do now? And then I say okay focus on the pieces. >> You can still be that buffering adult. You can still make your child feel safe. You can make your child and for this the parents have to work on themselves which is again something that we've mentioned >> call it reparing. So >> yes inner child work >> parents experiences while growing up defines their parenting style and that shows up in the adult as I said.
(27:18) So these parents have to go back to their childhood experiences and change the way they are programmed. >> Yes. Their belief system it's all hardware. So it can be changed. Yeah. >> Which is such a which is such an important thing to do because say so coming back to this first of all I need to understand what happened to me right that's the first time >> this was what happened to me and okay here is another question not everybody believes that they have had trauma okay like I don't think so I have had any trauma when I was growing up I had a
(27:50) wonderful loving family I lived in a joint family wonderful but I do question myself again and again that what is wrong with me Like for example, I have this whole habit and my friends also call me out for this where they're like I don't ask for help like whenever I'm in help like I'm injured or I need to be taken somewhere or anything.
(28:08) I'll go do I'll go to the hospital by myself. I will never ask for help and my friends also keep on telling me that why why don't you why don't you and now after reading a book I feel like there's something has happened >> and I'm I'm generalizing [clears throat] it right so giving a general perspective if >> seeking help was leading to likely trouble >> then child keeps things so simple things like if father is now drunk >> and I need the signature for tomorrow's school >> how likely is that child >> okay >> knowing that father is upset at mother
(28:39) and may meet up the mother go for you >> or or so so there are two things here either taking help is associ mind mind forms beliefs based on associations right >> so if there are two possibilities either taking help is associated with pain which means every time I take help I get into trouble I will not take help or not taking help is associated with praise >> oh you're so independent oh you look at you you can manage by yourself you don't need to do anything you don't need anybody's help so what do you learn as a
(29:09) I am loved because I am independent. I am appreciated because I don't take help from anybody. >> Oh, >> so it could be both. So see body and mind understand. Third could be trust. >> Okay. >> If there is lack of trust then you don't ask help >> because taking help could lead to some other challenges that you don't foresee.
(29:28) >> And you may have experienced that like you may have taken help as a child two three times and you may have got into trouble >> or it didn't work out the way you did. So there could be multip so when we have people with coming with a problem like yours we would ask all these questions what happened what did it associate with you know >> and that leads me to the questionnaire which you guys have built [laughter] in the book >> cuz that's how I kind of you know figured this out and I wouldn't reveal the questionnaire here you'll have to
(29:54) get the book for it [laughter] >> and sometimes you know people also develop children develop belief system because of parents also like if you've grown up with parents constantly telling you know don't take help of anybody you know see last time I took help and they betrayed me you know you'll pick up a lot of things as a child from what your parents have told you I know so many parents who just download their belief systems on the childhood never trust a partner by this is what >> belief system in India and families is
(30:24) something passed on from generations so so back to the questionnaire >> the global question was a starting point >> okay >> but he had simple questions such as divorce parents now Indian divorce rate is much smaller compared to more than 50% in the west. >> We had problems where parents want to divorce but they don't and they fight.
(30:45) >> Yeah. >> Additional India specific questions and they into a published 14 questions this which is in the book. So we the readers can go through 14 questions based on their score they can get a table that tells them what to expect okay >> with high risk not not cause but associations. They can also independently assess their positive childhood experience and together understand the imprint on them.
(31:09) >> So it's very objective. It's not yes maybe no. It's very clear and numbers are book. So this book has a lot of um >> selfwork that people can do. So when they go through the book they can assess their trauma. they can find out what are what is their risk uh you know how risk how much is the mental health risk that they have you know uh and there are there are more than I think 55 graphics and there are so many checklists and questionnaires so so the the best part is that it is very good for people who have who are survivors of trauma for
(31:41) them to understand like you read and you said you know some things you applied to yourself and figured out >> it is also for mental health practitioners to get additional tools >> to understand their clients better So in book he had a whole section for mental health >> huh for mental health practitioners a whole separate section.
(31:57) >> This is what I was going to ask you. I said okay fine I have read this book and I figured something happened to me but what is that stage at which I should understand that should I now go to therapy about it or should I uh because I don't know if a practitioner will understand the you know way of how I arrived at this conclusion.
(32:16) So again see uh for me my my training as I said is in solving the problem and being as objective >> right >> so we have a framework that can help the person self assess >> okay >> based on we call it s complexity model >> so if that complexity based on simple four binary or objective answers you can identify are you at zero 1 2 3 or four >> okay >> zero and one I'm generally and details are in the book you can self-regulate and manage the nervous system through practices, right? Anything beyond there are guidelines on >> psychologist versus psychiatrist versus
(32:52) psychotherapist on what and how and what is the risk level and what do you expect to see in your life >> with [clears throat] high degree of probability is captured. So it's very objective. For example, >> if somebody and not everybody with complexity 4 requires all three groups of individuals to review, but certain conditions require us to go to psychiatrist, have our psychologist review it and one of our therapist.
(33:17) >> And recently we had to say no because the primary requirement was psychiatrist on site in a foreign country. >> Okay. >> And then you come to us, not the other way around. So that objectively is given in the book for somebody to assess. >> Right? and abstract from there I can understand and this is again backed by thousands of data and very objective measures.
(33:41) M wow this is beautiful because I'll be really brutal and honest in saying this because everybody somewhere or the other is trying to figure out what is wrong with [laughter] me or what am I doing that you know I have to go through something you know professional personal relationship wherever everybody's doubting themselves somewhere or the other like self-esteem it's >> even you know perfectionism you said I have been a perfectionist for a large part of my life and perfectionism also comes from a need to be in control
(34:10) because when you are a perfectionist then you want to control the outcome. You want to control the environment. >> Why does a child have such a big need to control the outcome environment when the child feels unsafe or out of control? >> Yeah. >> So you see behind all these behaviors there is a need >> that we are trying to meet >> and then over time it becomes your personality trait and then when such personality traits reward you like perfectionism is generally rewarded right? Oh my god everything gets done on
(34:36) time like we are before time everywhere we are like everything. So that appreciation reinforces that behavior >> till a point where we start paying a price for it and the payoff is not as much. That's when people then come to us with a problem. Okay. Now this perfectionism is not helping me because it is causing me anxiety.
(34:53) It is making me angry at people. It is making me feel so stressed that I'm on diabetes, blood pressure medications. That is when we we need to work >> outcomes common outcomes such as uh dependence on substance. >> Yeah. >> Correct. is not very different inside the mind body compared to overwork. >> Okay, >> there is tendency to depend on the substance. There's tendency to overwork.
(35:17) >> There is tendency to harm my own chances long term >> knowing that certain things are not good for me. Taking wrong decisions which you realize later self-sabotaging behavior we talked about. So all of this is >> rooted in belief systems which got created primarily before age 18. It doesn't mean something after 18 doesn't have an impact.
(35:39) >> Correct. >> Correct. But we have to see primarily here. >> People say, "Oh, I'm a workaholic. It's an addiction." Work addiction is also an addiction. >> Numbing mechanism. >> It is a numbing mechanism. People work addiction is also where people are addicted to work in order to run away from something they don't want to cope up with.
(35:54) >> And COVID brought this out a lot in people because people who had toxic home environment, didn't get along with their wives or children, had issues which would run to work six days a week. >> Huh. And they would be appreciative hardworking co may they had to sit at home and when they sat at home they had to face everything that they did not face and then they had breakdowns and then they had to come to us.
(36:14) >> Yeah. And you know all of these things are so generalized in our everyday culture you know people pleasing procrastination all over work professionalism all of these things over cararing shutting down in fact you know they just say oh it's a bad day move on you know that's the whole thing and it's exactly it's it's like nobody pays attention to this behavior also okay maybe this is the reason why I'm suffering from all the anxiety this is the reason why I'm suffering from >> so connecting the dots is important so
(36:43) that is what we've tried to do in the book where we've we've attempted to help people connect the dots and that's why we've given so many stories case studies >> so many >> actually I wanted to ask you guys there's a case study which you have mentioned which is of the ID professional would you like to share that story I think it's actually interesting >> very successful >> smart individual it's a given right otherwise system will not allow correct >> u now >> he comes consulted with rereading and his assessment of childhood trauma was zero
(37:16) or one if I remember ex and the details are there >> when we personally talked it went to a score of 9 or 10 >> so he had normalized all the other stuff bitter everybody's bit of this happened 35 years ago why are you asked so the intention was not to answer it incorrectly and said was these are not relevant things when ji interviewed and told me it's nearly 10 so he said okay I'll come for one session So I told him that it will not help.
(37:45) >> This is long-term work. So it's okay. >> We don't need to continue. He he understood. We had talked. So he came. >> Now multiple issues. A boss praises this individual and said by the way next time let's do these things. Oh, the person only would see this 01% of suggestions, not critical comments and say my boss is upset with me because childhood, mother, grandmother fought, mother was putting anger on him, mother and father had issues and and a long list okay which I talked about. Now he had terri despite
(38:25) success he felt miserable >> very poor connection with the spouse with the child and felt very unhappy not only that the person had very poor financial well-being. Oh, >> financial wellbeing is not how much money you have. How do you feel about it? >> Okay. >> And that depends on financial resilience components like access to money, access to banking, access to expertise >> and understanding the financial markets.
(38:53) All of that was present. >> But the way I feel about it was horrible. And it took him about 6 months to recognize that there is no problem and I am fine even if I stop working today. But he felt miserable. What's the point of learning then? >> Highest exposure. There are four categories.
(39:12) Very high exposure to childhood trauma. >> However, the overworking and see capability doesn't go away. >> The childhood trauma imprint does not take away the capability. >> Some of them shut down completely and some of them go into hyperdrive >> overwork. In this case, capability is same in both. It went into overdrive. Very successful, very capable.
(39:35) But every inter and so the question I ask is imagine if I ask >> 10 of your competitive colleagues to assess how good you are. >> Nine or 10 on 10. 10 being very high. And how do you feel about yourself? Two on 10. >> Oh my perceived low self worth >> not real. >> And exposure to global environment, worked abroad, all of that was present.
(39:59) Did I answer the question? Yeah, >> here's what happens. What you see outside may not be the person's inner reality. So outside the guy is super successful financially, very well, living in a very elite place. Everybody would say, "Yeah, he's so successful, so good, so intelligent, so smart, everything.
(40:16) " But internally, he feels I have no money, I'm so insecure about money, my relationships are not good, I'm so unhappy, you know, um nothing is working for me. So there is such a big disconnect. People will judge you know and such people are very also they they are very scared to show their inner world to outsiders because outsiders see only success.
(40:37) >> They don't see what the guy is struggling with or they are easy to judge. You have no reason to complain and they will prove that you have everything. But here what we want to say is this has nothing to do with logic or reality. This is connected to how you have grown up feeling internally because trauma is subjective.
(40:58) Your reality is internally subjective reality not measure. >> So you can prove to a person that okay you have so much crores of net worth why you feeling poor but he can still feel poor internally and you should not judge because that feeling poor is not coming from reality. It is coming from the childhood condition. >> And the major link from what reality is and what I feel in case of financial wellbeing is loneliness.
(41:22) This is feeling lonely in the crowd. So it is the feeling of isolation, >> psychological loneliness, not the physical loneliness. >> So you could be in a party with 50 people. People could think you are the life of a party but internally you would be extremely lonely and we have so many such successful people coming to us who have everything but they have immense insecurity that all of this will go away one day and that security gives them immense stress immense you know need to control or become workaholics disconnect from their spouses disconnect from
(41:53) children one such client I'm working with he says I have everything but my children hate me they don't even want to spend 5 minutes with me so now he's realizing there's something wrong. And then after reading the book and seeing some of our videos, he says, I never ever in my dreams connected that this could be connected to my childhood 30 years back.
(42:13) What happened? >> You know, what you're saying is actually describing a lot of my experience because there are certain people in my life who I look up to them and I go like, "Wow, they have everything." You know, their life is so beautiful and wonderful and I'd be so happy if I was in their shoes.
(42:28) I keep thinking okay but when I go talk to them you know they're just not you know satisfied >> correct >> and it's a very feeling which everybody is carrying with them you know and living with it trying to figure out doing this that filling the void somehow some dependency being created correct correct this book should be like a a must you know for people to figure out like gifted to people who you see going through something like this that who have is not to psych people or to make them you know a lot of people are scared that oh my god oh childhood trauma no no
(43:03) no I don't want to do anything but this is not about that this is also to help you understand why other people in your life could be the way they are so that you don't judge them you look at them with compassion >> compassion [clears throat] yeah >> that's it right empathy because that guy who is shouting at you every morning or the guy who doesn't show up on time might possibly be having a freeze response he might pos you don't know the backtory so this would at least help us uh feel that there could be a backstory
(43:29) or there is an inner world which I am not aware of >> you know >> so opposite of procrastination being on time >> also is a problem [laughter] okay there was a person who says I am so sticky about time that those who don't come on time I give them a long lecture >> I think [laughter] okay and he he narrated a story where the belief system started was that went somewhere my father is a civil engineer he took us to a dam site which was being constructed.
(43:57) We had breakfast and say okay let's meet at 9 outside I'm doing some work and the boy goes outside couple of minutes after 9 father had left. >> Oh 9:00 I left. >> So the this is when the person realized that at that point I decided I cannot be late for my life. M >> not only that he became so >> agitated and obsessed that everybody including somebody who is a post person or doing little job I have to give them a lecture.
(44:30) So not only procrastinate, the real answer is somewhere in between. The most important things you do, some things you procrastinate. We've had people who feel so angry with themsel for procrastinating. We talk about guilt versus healthy guilt versus toxic shame. >> Yeah. Toxic shame is connected. We again talk in chapter four. >> Okay. Wow.
(44:51) This is quite an eye openening session and a podcast for me to be very honest like your book because like I said you know a lot of our personality traits we feel is is is what we have to live with is what we have to deal with and a lot of us have answers and that's why my my ending question to both of you is going to be is it possible to heal from all of this? How much is it possible to heal from childhood trauma? Yes, >> it is possible because our brain has neuroplasticity.
(45:23) Our brain had developed certain connections in our early childhood and those connections we kept repeating because of the environmental factors that reinforced it and then we kept repeating the connections because we were not even aware. We thought that was a personality trait. >> But neuroscience says and research says that brain has neuroplasticity which means those connections can be reconnected, rewired.
(45:45) It's literally like a path in the jungle where you have made a path. Everybody walks on that. People think that is the path. Now you want to close that path. You create a new path. More and more people walk on it. That will become the new road. Correct. So your behavior can change when you change your environment when you repeat the new behaviors you want to.
(46:09) And when you rewire those old pathways, we have had a entire section on memory. >> Okay. And what we believe is that what you said is our wounds, our childhood trauma, our experiences are stored as memory, long-term memory. And because it is stored as memory, that is the guiding factor of our current behaviors, whether we are conscious of it or not.
(46:30) >> The the amazing part is we can reconsolidate the memory. >> Oh, >> so the processes we've described in the book work on changing your memory. You cannot delete memory unless you have amnesia. It's not possible. um unless you are gajini or you are that you know that so so memory cannot be deleted but it can be reconsolidated correct so the processes we've mentioned and we have had success with hundreds of people who have come to us with this only whether it is fears phobias compulsive behaviors that when they change and reconsolidate
(47:00) the memory they isolate the emotional charge of those trauma experiences from the memory then the brain rewires we keep repeating the new wiring the new neural pathway is repeated through guided visualization suggestions self hypnosis all of that we've described in the book now the person starts operating as per the new wiring >> wow okay >> the new program right and that then slowly with repetition becomes the new behavior so it is definitely possible to change >> okay >> definitely if the person wants to change
(47:30) if there's a secondary gain if there is a benefit in always being a victim if there's a benefit in carrying the trauma placard and saying hey you know I have trauma so I can't do I can't come on time then we can't do anything about such people. >> Yeah, please. [laughter] >> So, no, but it's a real problem. >> Pass it on.
(47:46) So, >> no, no, no. Secondary gain is a big block to therapy. Let me tell you, there are a lot of people who are getting a lot of secondary gains from being victimized, traumatized, abused, and they carry it like a crown on their head because they want to get away with a lot of behaviors which are not acceptable otherwise. Oh, I can't come on time.
(48:04) Why? Because I have trauma. The book says, oh, this affects your ability to show up or so. So, I kind of don't want to come. These are the people who will not benefit but people who you know genuinely want to change they can definitely change. Yes you're >> so simple English most of this behaviors or decisions are irrational.
(48:24) >> Yeah >> simple measurable thing if I say dogs >> if you don't like dog >> and my dog comes and I am surprised that in suddenly I see my dog here I'm happy >> but you will be petrified. Yeah. >> Irrational reaction. >> So that's one component which means you were not born with a fear of talk >> but it was acquired.
(48:44) >> Yeah. >> Correct. And that goes back to memory and specific events. Second if I go from a science point of view >> two components when there's a painful event. >> First of all that event is so painful that I would not approach anything that reminds me consciously or unconscious. This is in five years of punch course we talked about not just mind body.
(49:02) Correct. So when that event's imprint of negative emotion is taken away, you can possibly consider sitting next to a dog. Now there may be behavioral implications. For example, if you had a wonderful job offer in a company that make dog foods, you will not go. >> That decision then needs to be also taken further.
(49:21) >> So not just not near the dog, but its implications on your belief systems and decisions also need to change. All of this requires work. The deeper the wounds are, the more consistent the experiences are growing up, the more difficult it is, but it takes longer. However, it can be changed. >> It can be >> and objectively measurable neuron level measurement of memory reconsolidation.
(49:42) This is a finding of this century and therefore we need to see it from a neuroscience perspective, not just behavioral perspective. So we have so uh so like you were saying you know we we behavior can change if the person wants to but only difference is when the trauma load is very high and when the PCs are low such people take much longer to recover versus somebody who has a lower trauma load uh you know and higher PCs.
(50:10) So the journeys are different and the journey measured in numbers is clear. So if some say acceptable level depression is here, >> one group of high trauma load the complexity starts here. >> They recover after about 12 sessions. >> The low trauma group who come to us have something higher than the acceptable level.
(50:28) But in about four sessions they reach acceptable level and that's detailed in the book. So we have very clear understanding and we can project to a level of understanding that is long or a quick recovery. So we have the ability to actually predict okay in journey based on the because we have numbers no almost 3,000 people unfortunate >> numbers and data helps us to actually project that roughly this is a high this is a high complexity case so long journey low complexity expect through the book you can you can do your self assessment of positive as well as
(50:59) adverse childhood experiences understand the complexity and also get an idea of what is more likely to happen higher risk And finally the recovery. The whole section >> two and three talk about recovery. Three is for mental health but two talks about anyone who wants to look at recovery. Some can just recover through certain common sense practices, lifestyle choices >> which we have mentioned here.
(51:21) >> Correct. So trauma you know big thing about trauma. If somebody sleeps well >> specifically rapid eye movement stage when the eyes move, it's likely that in few weeks they will recover from the painful experience. Now what happens is trauma sometimes and this is now thankfully controlled over last few years I'm observing and talking to our collaborating psychiatrist that say is benzoizopine it's again not recommended because it disrupt sleep okay >> so trauma and a combination of drug which a psychiatrist must be consulted
(51:59) is self-medicated and that's a problem so simple answer is recovery is possible We need to understand multiple aspects including lifestyle choices. There are common sense lifestyle choices which increase the risk or lower the resilience lowers the resilience to deal with. >> Got it. >> Wow.
(52:17) So okay if I have to say in a nutshell first of all figure out what has happened with you first of all do that start with it. I mean everybody doubts themselves. So start from here figure out what was wrong, what has happened and then you can understand by taking a lot of like further moving into the thing that if you can self-regulate or you need to get professional help >> and once you know if you have to get professional help then you can also understand how long that journey can be and >> like would just a counseling be enough or do you need deeper trauma related
(52:45) therapy or do you even need medication? >> So for most grief when you lose a person >> grief is expected. >> Yeah. But grief after 5 years >> has something irrational that requires therapy. So we had somebody who comes to us so and so has lost a husband and it's very unfortunate young age therapy. I said no social support we have systems that is required and likely it'll sort out >> after few months if this sustains then we'll consider therapy.
(53:13) So therapy is not what we >> so we never say that everybody who has trauma, everybody who has procrastination or depression should go for therapy. We said first start with self-regulation. If self-regulation doesn't work >> then consider therapy. First step is >> otherwise people will say all right I have this problem you fix me.
(53:32) No first work on yourself. So we have a whole lot of self-regulation techniques evidence-based techniques based here which people can do themselves. If their issues are resolved they don't need therapy. complexity of the trauma trauma imprint is very high at a presenting moment then self-regulation's improvement may not be sufficient.
(53:50) So first we then adjust this and at that point self-regulations takes take them further on their own. >> So all in all there's a ray of hope for a lot of >> absolutely that is why this book is out there is focusing more than 50% on solutions. In fact lot of people write to me that everybody talks about problems ma'am are you does this have solutions and I'm saying there are two sections on solutions out of three sections in the book only one section is about the problem two sections are about solutions >> yeah because that's what we all are
(54:19) looking >> and this is not talked in Indian context when I like I said I talked to many mental health professionals unfortunately measurability is missing beyond the initial consultation so how is the progress is subjective >> and who makes what kind of progress is also subjective Yeah. >> Therefore, it's like let's go back to example.
(54:41) 50 people show up at the hospital. >> Will the doctor admit everybody? >> No. >> So, when you talk of psychotherapy, the way we have to deal with different groups has to be defined and that's Dr. >> and measurable. >> Measurable and therefore the people with higher exposure or higher complexity needs a different approach, more experienced therapist and they have to be educated for a potential long-term journey. Recovery is possible. No doubt.
(55:05) Perfect. So, um, thank you first of all for giving me a lot of hope here because I'm also one of those people who get up every morning go like what's wrong with [laughter] me? But, um, I think one thing that I can say this book will do is really give a lot of answers to which people have tried to find you know those gaps those voids and those confusion and hopefully readers will pick should pick it up.
(55:35) I feel this says something that they should pick it up. They should gift it to people that they know and understand that what is happening inside, what has happened in their past, how everything is connected, how even they can parent better after understanding what is happening to them. >> Correct. That's why I said this book comes first and then was the parenting book actually >> the other parenting book.
(55:54) [laughter] Yes. No, but when you said about this morning, I I must say this little thing, you can add it somewhere in the podcast. I don't know a snippet. A lot of people have these things about the time of the day. Like so many tell me that in the morning I wake up with anxiety. Like every morning I open my eyes, my heart rate is up and I'm like this is how I get up from bed.
(56:13) Now people think not a big deal. It's okay. This is how I am. But actually this is also linked to childhood. And invariably I'll ask them how were your mornings as a kid? Oh no. Usually you know mom wanted us to do yoga. So every day she'll wake up us up at 5:00 to do yoga. Okay. How would she wake you up? Oh I would never wake up.
(56:29) So mom would shout at me and if I never if she didn't if I didn't wake up then she would actually physically you know grab me from the bed and shake me up or she would put cold water on my head. Now for the child every morning is associated with anxiety >> now you forget about it then you are 15 20 yoga classes you forget but when you wake up in the morning with this your body is still operating that program.
(56:54) Let me give you can I give you an example of an adult >> a doctor who came to us. Uh two of us were talking to her. She was referred by a good friend and went to other couple of people for help. She said I get panic attack panic attacks. So I said okay how often? So she described >> and what were you doing? I was cooking dinner.
(57:19) Then she says I went out for walk with my husband after dinner. Now she's telling us it's happening at night without being aware. >> So the next question then our eyes lit up. You see anytime have you experienced this during the day? She says no. >> There some opening was created. Then we traced that there was a horrible accident and I will not go into the details but that happened throughout the entire night death of a family member and lot of other complex >> when she was a child.
(57:47) >> Adult. >> Ah okay. >> This was adult experience. >> Okay. So it's not that and such horrible experiences can leave an imprint. Imagine this adult is a child who has no idea and then nervous system is developing that gets messier but it happens to adults. So the children are more likely to be impacted.
(58:04) So this was rooted we identified called it post-traumatic stress disorder address it with the technique we use reconsolidation of traumatic memory stopped. >> It's very interesting. One person said every Sunday I fight with my husband. Every Sunday I fight with my husband. We have fights every [laughter] Sunday. And I said what happens on Sundays when you were a child? And then she realized as a child Sundays were very stressful because mom dad used to work the whole week.
(58:29) Sundays both used to be home and when both were home there used to be conflict all the time. >> This is something I [laughter] can do. >> I used to call it SCES Sunday evening syndrome. And as a adult with young kids at home when is Sunday evening and you work in you know outside India >> you're well connected during the weekend and suddenly Sunday you feel like you have to get up and leave the kids and family at home.
(58:49) So you feel disturbed and then you come back. Correct? So this is very common morning I had I remember one example >> somebody in 40s came and says I just cannot get up >> not delayed not pro I just cannot get up I don't want to get up >> it traced back to childhood where from the village the father says go to uncle's home in the city with good and uncle was very nice father was very well connected okay goes this boy wakes up he hears uncle hitting the children and sometimes he tried to go he was beaten up.
(59:24) >> So he decided for 2 3 hours I cannot imagine getting up >> in the morning >> I would freeze and just behave as if I'm asleep. I explained to him he came back after two years [snorts] [laughter] because there's no connection but we have had people we have had more than 10 documented cases of somebody feeling upset at the time of evening >> for some father would one guy >> and people don't make these connections because they think this had happened 30 years back my morning anxiety only started at 40 how are the connections if
(59:58) it was connected it should have happened throughout it doesn't work that way it doesn't happen it can come up at any moment. >> The gap is because at in that gap there were other things happening. It's literally like a dominant volcano. >> There was >> it's there. It's boiling but it's not spilled over. It will spill over.
(1:00:14) >> One one adult 37 year old I remember long time ago the sound of bullet I feel panic. >> Bullet is that bike sound especially in the evening the father was a police officer would come home and the only thing father would do is beat up the child and he had tears. She says my father died 10 years ago but still I face this every day if I hear the sound.
(1:00:39) A girl in college she came to us really worked nothing was happening she says try it out and we were talking she says I can't give exams panic in exams >> okay and I said so was this girl >> she was in college at that time so I said how is your academic score performance and I asked her and she said I realized she has never failed an exam >> oh >> so something is unusual irrational the thing I it trace back to grade life where father and father would bring her.
(1:01:10) Father was aggressive physically beating her up. She goes for math exam. She didn't do something right. She's petrified of the father and as she comes home father has taken sleeping pills and the reaction and there the decision would was made exam especially math I will not go and it changed. She actually finished graduation happily and was fine.
(1:01:33) >> Wow. >> So this can go on. [laughter] >> Yeah. We have like we have like I don't know how many 23 25 >> but you know listening to all of this makes me believe that there is so much uh that a human goes through and then recovers. >> Yes the most important part. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah.
(1:01:52) So a person came [clears throat] uh who had lost his spouse during and set up the session at 6:30 evening time unhappy and expected that you will feel alone more so when the day is ending. Unfortunately he he later mentioned that me and my wife both felt odd and we were unhappy in the evenings. So there was something irrational >> that led to coaching classes time when he went.
(1:02:17) And he said I said during that time also you described in my notes I recall you were disturbed you were not happy. >> Yeah that was before so it is not connected to this recent loss and rooted back to the city when the person was born that time also you felt it to keep the story short it was traced back to early childhood where the father was transferred somewhere in a remote place in the country and this boy would feel horrible because of violence in the family and the home environment.
(1:02:43) So he would say I would say out peer isolation bullying happening in school keep going around the colony on bicycle. One day he comes home >> and finds a father attempting suicide and guess what >> that was evening. >> Oh >> and from that day wherever throughout his life he felt strange and then we sorted the evening and the connection.
(1:03:07) uh later after a few weeks he set up a session in the park at 6:30 and smiling. >> Oh, >> you see I still have a pain of loss but I'm fine with the evening. >> You were overcome. >> These are little things that show up and have a strong imprint on the life. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Wow. This is such like I I didn't know that there could be so many patterns of that we are not aware of and things like getting up in the morning is difficult.
(1:03:35) A lot of people experience that. A particular day is difficult, a particular time is difficult and wow. So yeah, thank you for writing this book because it's really eye opening. It's really helpful and so many people can find so many solutions to the daily problems and this is the best way at least to start I would say right. >> Yes.
(1:03:56) Yes. We've put together everything that we've known uh through the thousands of clients we've worked with and I think this is a labor of love. I mean I know how much we fought over this. I want to read out the [laughter] the endorsement that Raj Shamani has given. He said a useful book for parents, for therapist, and for anyone who has been told everyone had a tough childhood. Move on.
(1:04:17) This is so true because they just say, "Oh, everyone's have a tough childhood. Move on. What's the big deal?" Nope. Nope. [laughter] >> That's a big deal. Go figure it out. Work on yourself so that you can be a better person. You can not pass on that trauma. You can do better in life. Live peacefully, live happily.
(1:04:34) Everybody wants that. So why not? So >> and accept yourself and accept others. That is what >> absolutely accept yourself. That is so important because that is the most toughest thing to do. I feel so thank you both of you. Thank you for coming to our podcast also. This was really lovely.
(1:04:51) And uh books book is available wherever books are sold. You can get it at any corner in any bookstore or online. And of course Rei and Dr. Gungjan will be there uh signing books. You can get the signed copies as well. And hopefully we'll see you again on a post on a podcast with another book. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Hopefully. >> All right. Thank you. [music]