Why Are Indians Getting Sick Despite Eating Healthy?
Author Name:Dr Pal
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@DrPal
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq_sc-4EQ3Y
Title: Why Are Indians Getting Sick Despite Eating Healthy?
Author Name: Dr Pal
Description: Is the rice, wheat and everyday food on your plate as nutritious as you think?
In this episode Dr. Pal speaks with Ravindra Grover from HarvestPlus about the changing nutritional quality of our food, hidden hunger, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, soil health and the role of biofortification.
They explore why modern rice and wheat may contain fewer micronutrients, how iron and zinc deficiencies can contribute to malnutrition, and why being full doesn’t always mean being well-nourished. The conversation also covers food adulteration in India, food labels, ultra-processed foods, organic vs biofortified food, calcium rich ragi, plant based diets, Vitamin B12 and gut health.
Watch the full podcast to understand what may really be happening to the food on your plate.
Time stamps :
00:00 - 01:26 — Promo
01:27 - 04:19 — Introduction to the guest
04:20 - 05:17 — Has Our Food Really Lost 50% of Its Nutrition?
05:18 - 06:29 — What Is Hidden Hunger?
06:30 - 09:36 — Why Our Soil Is Losing Nutrients
09:37 - 12:05 — You Are What Your Food Eats
12:06 - 13:55 — Can We Really Trust Food Labels?
13:56 - 16:39 — India vs US Food Regulations
16:40 - 18:45 — What Is Biofortification?
18:46 - 20:16 — Ragi, Bajra & Nutrient-Rich Traditional Foods
20:17 - 21:47 — How to Identify Biofortified Foods
21:48 - 22:57 — Dr. Pal's NewME Initiative
22:58 - 24:57 — Fortification vs Biofortification
24:58 - 26:44 — Is Biofortification the Same as GMO?
26:45 - 28:39 — Why Isn't Biofortified Food Everywhere Yet?
28:40 - 29:16 — Are Biofortified Foods More Expensive?
29:17 - 31:01 — Zinc Wheat, Iron Bajra & Other Biofortified Crops
31:02 - 31:47 — Do You Really Need to Eat Organic?
31:48 - 33:50 — What Will Gen Z's Health Look Like in 20 Years?
33:51 - 36:30 — Sonic Seasoning: Can Sound Change How Food Tastes?
36:31 - 38:30 — Why Eating Slowly Matters
38:31 - 41:25 — How Cooking Changes Nutrient Absorption
41:26 - 43:01 — Why Nutrition Should Be Taught to Children
43:02 - 44:15— The Most Important Lesson About Your Food
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Transcript:
(00:00) food used to be much more nutritious 50 years back. ICR's own study which says we have lost up to 50% of nutrition in our common food and the result of it is most of our people they look healthy but they're suffering from >> oh my god >> onethird of our soils are degraded. If your rice is being grown in a soil which is nutrient deficient, [music] the science says it will have nutrients up to 80% lower than a crop that's grown in a soil which has adequate amount of nutrients.
(00:38) >> Hidden hunger. Explain that. >> So hidden hunger is when your body is full but your cells are starving. the body hasn't got the desired amount of protein, desired amount of zinc and that's why you have obese people who are having [music] last month 2.3 cr liters of milk was found which was made from detergents.
(00:59) The soya chaff that we have been eating in North India has no soya in it. >> Oh my god. >> We can read all the labels we want as long as we don't have laws to tackle this willful adulteration. We cannot 100% trust those labels. >> What is the explanation that we should give that the same food is not the same? >> People used to say that you are what you eat >> but in reality.
(01:27) >> Hello guys, welcome to another episode of our podcast series Gat feeling with Dr. Pal. In this episode we are interviewing Mr. Rainda Grover a person involved in a non-government organization called Harvest Plus. And the aim of this organization is to make sure that food is medicine. And they are teaching us how to grow biofortified crops.
(01:48) In this episode, we are talking about how we can improve the quality of the food that we are eating. How do we identify these foods? What is biofortification? How can we increase micronutrient deficiencies even without taking a multivitamin supplement in future? This episode is mind-blowing. We talked about a lot and lot of good points about how do we fortify our health.
(02:09) I'm sure you will learn a lot from this podcast. Let's dive deep into it. Thank you, Mr. Rainda. Thank you so much. I'm excited for this podcast because all the Genzi kids are telling me that our grandparents ate the same food. We are also eating the same food. Why we are getting diseases and not them? What is the explanation that we should give that the same food is not the same? I think uh Jenzi to me is is like one of the cool creative confident generation right and they've got many things right when it comes to health I guess the first generation who has been
(02:42) trying to optimize not only for weight loss but for feeling good [clears throat] >> right they track their health they're reading labels they're doing so many things right they're vocal about mental health like it's no more stigma >> correct >> so I think they're doing fantastic but al they're also a bit unfort fortunate in a way the food environment has evolved >> right I mean say they are living in a what I call as a obesogenic environment >> you know where this algorithm is actually trying to make you eat more
(03:10) giving you all kind of temptations >> and uh move less >> so that's one of the big problems that they are facing then uh couple it with digital chronic stress that they are facing you know those continuous notifications the media so much >> that's it's Like you know we in the old very very old times people used to have this fear of uh being chased by a tiger and that's it's a similar environment you know we are living in a similar amount of stress only difference is is now digital stress rather than the the stress that we used to have. So it's a
(03:45) difficult environment that these folks are living in and then they try to get out of it by aesthetic eating, chasing quick fixes, right? And uh grazing all the day, skipping regular meals. >> Correct? >> Let me tell you this is not going to help, right? So this is going to create problems. >> Now people say that when our old generation used to eat same food.
(04:09) No, that's not correct. You know the older generation they were a they were eating less frequently. Food was mostly home-cooked >> and food was actually nutritious. >> Food used to be much more nutritious 50 years back. We have lost up to 50% of nutrition in our common food. So it's not the same. >> Is that true? We have lost 50%.
(04:30) >> Oh absolutely. Yeah, I mean see you know if you look at the data ICR's own study which says that the and I've said it many times that the roti in old times used to give us 56% of our zinc RDA. Now it gives only 25% which is less than uh 50%. Same story with rice. So this is >> RDA is a required dietary allowance.
(04:52) Yes. >> Per day you should have that. >> Exactly. So you know which means our zinc and our roti has been on uh continuous uh decrease. Same story for iron. You know our food is becoming less and less nutritious. Uh Dr. Paul and so we need to fix this. That's the key challenge and the result of it is that most of our people they look healthy but they're suffering from something which we like to call as hidden hunger.
(05:18) >> Hidden hunger. Explain that. >> So hidden hunger is when your body is full but your cells are starving. M so you know you eat you think I have got a signal of satiety from my body but then the body hasn't got the desired amount of protein desired amount of zinc iron micronutrients fiber etc and the result is that that's why we see this uh uh phenomena where most of the folks in our country are overfed but have still having malnutrition >> you know I mean science tells very interestingly I mean if you look at the
(05:52) theories like protein leverage hypothesis or specific appetite theory which tells very clearly that our body needs a particular nutrient and until unless that need is met body keeps on craving for the food and the end result is you keep on eating more thinking that I'm not full and that's why you have obese people who are having malnutrition so that's a kind of a you know dilemma that people have right now that even after having adequate amount of food they still not able to meet their micronutrient >> I'm very surprised to here that every
(06:25) nutrient is decreased by 50%. Is that because of the soil? Is because of the environment? What happened? >> So I think there are few factors which are in play. The first and foremost is of course uh the the decreasing nutrientation density. We have been breeding crops for higher productivity. So at the seed level, this is the major change that happened.
(06:48) The modern varieties are high yielding but they're very low in uh micronutrients. So that's why that's one of the reason. The second thing is the soil health. Soil health has been on a continuous decline. You know uh uh I don't know if you know this fact in India the organic carbon level in our soil is 5%.
(07:07) It should be 5% ideally. So our onethird of our soils are degraded. >> So tell me what organic carbon does. >> So organic carbon is basically like your you know it's your gut of uh like the role that gut plays in our body. That's a gut of our soil, right? All the microbes and everything, they need those to feed and survive.
(07:27) So that's basically the lifeblood of our soil. >> Oh my god. >> So if you don't have organic carbon, which means you're dealing with slowly near dead soils and uh and you know food is gets its nutrition from where it is grown and how it is grown and then if the soils are dead, you can't expect a nutritious food to come out of it.
(07:46) Right? So soil seeds have been two key factors. And the third one is on the ultrarocessed food. The way we have been processing our foods takes away you know fiber takes away micronutrients. It's just empty calories packed in a hyper palatable way which makes it very engaging and uh repeat purchase is huge but it doesn't really help our >> repeat hospital admissions are good.
(08:08) [laughter] repeat admissions are also are are there [snorts] and lastly I think it's also about at the consumer level like I said you know we when you're living in this um chronic stress you you know your cortisol levels are high right your cycles are totally gone you do this you're living in a hyperconvenient environment where 2:00 a.m.
(08:32) Snacking is pretty much uh >> very common thing. >> Very common thing, right? And when you are young it you you really don't care. I mean you think my gut is made of steel, right? I mean you know everyone looks great in 20s. I mean the real flex is you should look great in your 40s. You should have same energy in your 60s. You should have more life to the ears.
(08:50) And that's uh that's I think the key thing. Uh >> so so when they are young they think they're iron man and when they're old they are a man with no iron. Oh, absolutely. I think that physical invincibility factor and we used to have that too, right? We used to think that I can uh do late night snacking at 2 a.m.
(09:07) get up at 8 a.m. nothing happens, right? It's it doesn't I mean say at that time there's this huge metabolic cushion that you have. Your cellular turnover is really fast, right? And you're living what I call in a grace period. The bill is not going to come till the time you turn 40.
(09:25) And when the bill comes, you know, you really can't reverse it. It's not Samana's carrier that you'll have a carrier that you'll have a comeback happening there. If it's damaged then damage is many a times permanent. >> That's true. That's true. I won't focus on a little bit on that soil thing. Um so let's say when somebody eats rice roti we really don't focus on where the original ingredient is being sourced from.
(09:53) Uh for example let's say I live in Chennai and then I'm eating a rice here. How do we find where this rice is coming from? >> So you know this is a very important question. I think uh you know health awareness is increasing but it's increasing to the extent that people are now reading the label and saying oh this is a good rice this is a product etc and all that but I think the need is to go one step deeper and ask how it was grown.
(10:16) Uh >> you know my takeaway from u my own personal life and from my study of nutrition had been that people used to say that you are what you eat. >> But in reality you are what your food eats. >> Oh >> you know look at it from this perspective. If your rice is being grown in a soil which is nutrient deficient, the science says it will have nutrients up to 80% lower than a crop that's grown in a soil which has adequate amount of nutrients.
(10:51) Because crops have no other way of synthesizing nutrition, right? They synthesize they absorb it from the soil. So if your soils are deficient, that's the first factor that plays into comes into picture. The second one is it also depends on absorption capacity of the seeds which are put in those soils. If your seeds are not bred properly, your crops cannot absorb nutrition.
(11:11) So that's why it's very important for people to go a level down and ask where was this rice grown? Right? And it applies for every food. When we talk about livestock, you know, how you're reading your those chicken, is there adequate amount of sunlight? You know, are they being fed antibiotics? cage-free all that matters because you know that decides so any toxicity or any nutrition just walks upwards right so in the food chain so it's important for us to go to the building blocks and see were those building blocks perfect
(11:43) >> so if you are looking for say nutrient-dense crops you should look whether this crop is biofortified is it nutrientdense right can I use it do they bring higher amount of zinc iron so just looking at protein and calories is not enough Right? You need to go deeper look at what what fiber do these crops bring? Uh what micronutrients are they bringing? Where were they grown? What were the conditions etc.
(12:06) >> So let's say a label says like okay I'm just saying example zinc of like 20%. I'm just saying going down the next step what will we get? Will we get that okay zinc is really 20%, if the soil is good is that the research that we should do. >> So I think the you know the reading labels is important right I mean but I want to come in at the labels from a thing.
(12:31) how much reality these labels present in a country like ours. >> Look, I think uh people have been eating those soya chops. >> Yes. >> For years thinking that they're high in protein, you know, plant-based alternative. And I I'm sure you have seen this recent video of a kid literally taking bath in that uh >> uh ma batter. >> So, first of all, the soya chop that we have been eating in North India has no soya in it. It's it's made from madabat.
(12:57) So that's the first realization that you should have. >> The second one is you know the imagine if someone would have been reading labels just on a thing they don't know what is happening are they getting the real product. I give you an example of Maharashtra I think last month 2.3 cr liters of milk was found which was made from detergents.
(13:19) >> Oh my god. So you know so we can read all the labels we want as long as we don't have laws to tackle this willful adulteration. We cannot 100% trust those labels. I know many food companies who have been putting 2x nutrition, 3x nutrition on their labels and all that. But who is doing testing? Testing is very minimal.
(13:41) So no one is calling out their claims except for now a few independent labs have started to do. So the sanctity of those labels is is in itself is questionable, right? So I think it's important for people not to stop at just reading labels and assume everything is hunky dory. >> How do you compare US standards? Even in US there is uh there's no regulation about the overthe-counter supplements and all those things, right? They can do whatever they want on the dietary ingredients.
(14:07) Do you know any insight about the regulations in the US and in India? Because you have your headquarters in the US. So you know supplements is a different uh domain again and controlled by uh different regulatory body right but I think as far as food is concerned uh the one thing that I see a huge difference is that setting up a food business there requires a lot of prep work >> is right >> compare it with a country like India anyone can get up and open a food startup tomorrow right and why they can do it because >> you know eventually nothing is going to
(14:42) go wrong and uh >> you know this whole philosophy of that uh start first perfect later it can apply to it but it can't apply to food you can't play with people's life and I guess that's a huge difference between the way west operates and the way we operate here >> and that's why I say food is something that should be treated with lot of stricter uh regulatory guidelines because it affects people's life right so so I guess that's a key thing you know we need stricter laws and >> but with all these awareness coming
(15:15) coming don't you think that the laws would be stricter more now in India as well >> I I hope so I think we move in that direction right and uh >> but as of now it is not the case >> but the speed of uh change has been slow and I think that's something that we need to uh work on and uh you know I guess there's plenty to learn from other places like you know >> uh we don't need to do the same set of mistakes Take example of our nutrition ratings right I mean so we have been grappling with this subject of having
(15:46) nutrition ratings Europe has such a beautiful system you can see that uh you know if a product is high in salt sugar fat you don't need to flip the pack you can see it in the front itself right and that gives to an person a very clear indication of whether I should be and if someone is picking still picking that product he knows this I'm doing it out of indulgence right >> it's a conscious decision >> it's a conscious decision >> this is in uh this happens in Singapore, >> Europe I mean Singapore also has a its
(16:14) own uh rating system and India is contemplating but it's kind of going on for quite some time and again uh I mean you know India is looking at creating something called as a INR Indian nutri nutrition rating system >> but again it doesn't consider micronutrients in it so you know it's like we will solve one problem and then 20 years uh forward we will come back and say hey I should have probably included micronutrients as Well there >> as an NGO you do biofortification to enrich the nutrients of the common ingredients that we are eating to so
(16:48) that you can reach the masses. >> Absolutely. So you know our vision of uh combating malnutrition had been through agricultural innovation and we chose staples because staples is what everyone eats right um um there are many folks who just eat a plate of rice and few roties probably and that's their you know whole day is food >> so now we need to enrich these crops so our focus >> what all the common staples >> so our focus has been on wheat rice millets in millets particularly uh pearl millet uh finger millet sorum and uh
(17:25) then beans in Africa we have been focusing on beans cassava maze >> and the nutrients that we focus on are you know the key nutrient deficiencies across the world are for iron zinc uh vitamin A and so we have varieties of crops for example in India we have uh zinc rich wheat zinc rich rice iron pearl millet calcium rich finger mir I so I don't need to tell you you come from south India this has been a culinary capital of microbial alani right and ragi had been known here for uh a long ages >> exactly >> and so
(18:04) >> but still we don't eat it [laughter] >> but yeah I mean we got uh still have raggi malt and uh things right which are like in it's amazing to know people asked that you know I I can't really replace uh milk and I say you know why can't you replace oh I'll struggle for calcium and then my answer is you know just have two biofortified raggi roties they have more calcium than a glass of milk people really >> I think we have done a very poor job in educating people about the nutritive value of the food and the supplement
(18:42) industry have definitely outperformed in that area >> so rag is rich in calcium >> yes >> and that is what you were you were saying >> absolutely so so it makes a lot of sense particularly now when the veganism and this thing you know people are looking for alternatives so ragi makes so much sense uh there likewise uh pearl millet you know iron deficiency and u much more so for women right uh uh women need almost double the amount of iron that men need right in pregnancy it's almost like triple the amount of >> uh iron that men need and uh so that's
(19:21) what creates a biggest gender nutrition gap because their baseline itself is very high and unfortunately like we discussed that the iron levels in our crops have been dwindling and which means women are at more risk and this is not a surprise that nearly 60% of women in India are anemic uh you know what else do we expect when our crop baselines have been on a continuous decrease so that's where crops like iron pearl millet iron Enrich bajrain enrich beans they make a huge difference uh coming in and uh solving this problem.
(19:55) >> So so you know as an organization you guys are doing great job you know educating people uh bringing the farmers in giving the fortified seeds and also other uh methods for them to grow as a consumer. How do I know that this pearl millet is ironrich or if I want to buy an iron rich pearl millet? How should I go about? >> That has been a key challenge of lately, right? Um Dr.
(20:21) Paul, our focus had been initially on um we came from the farmers side and our idea was that build let's build the supply chains let farmers first accept these varieties and for >> first 15 years our focus was release these varieties, get these varieties adopted by the farmers. We didn't focus on c uh on consumers. >> Um but then when farmers started adopting it, we realized that they have a now a surplus which they want to market and we need to do some consumer side uh demand creation as well.
(20:53) So last few years our focus has been on creating this consumer demand. Uh we have uh released uh a mark which is called a biofortification mark. So you can see it on the products and uh see that these crops are biofortified. You know you asked about how do people realize that they are coming from a better source.
(21:15) So so we we putting that biofortified marks many uh startups and food companies are adopting that mark. So consumer can figure out that this is a product and it clearly mentions which are which are ingredients are there like iron bridge pearl millet and calcium rich finger millet. So they can see it.
(21:32) So this is being done both for snacks and staples. So that has been a major major win for us u in the recent years. It's still scaling. I mean more and more organizations are uh coming forward and I hope more people who are watching more founders who are watching us will reach out to us. >> So sorry for interrupting the podcast flow but let me take one minute to tell you about something I have passionately put together the new lifestyle medicine clinic.
(21:58) If you're struggling with diabetes, hypertension, fatty liver, obesity, or any other chronic lifestyle conditions, Numei lifestyle medicine is designed to help you build longlasting habits and not just give you another diet chart, a detailed evaluation with a doctor, a clinical health coach. I personally review your profile and based on your medical needs, we create a three or a six-month plan for you.
(22:21) Our doctors follow up with you regularly while clinical health coaches personally trained by me guide you through nutrition and sustainable habit change. But health is not just about food and mumi. We also bring together movement through our virtual online gym. You could just log in anywhere from anytime. Physiootherapy support where required, stress relaxation techniques and access to mental health therapies.
(22:43) This is what I believe healthcare should be. not just treating the disease but helping you prevent and manage it through sustainable lifestyle change. If that sounds like the support you need, visit drpalmi.com and check out the program link in the description. We have learned about fortification uh while we were studying preventive medicine, social and preventive medicine.
(23:03) We said that that is the only way to reach masses. U but nowadays the question is oh you doing some kind of an engineering like biofortification will that affect our health? Is it AI? How will you? >> So yeah, so this again there's always a confusion between biofortification and fortification. Let's first address that, right? And then biofortification and I I know what you meant by what you mean by biotechnology, right? People have that.
(23:29) Is it GMO? Is it transgenic? Let's address both the questions. >> First biofortification and fortification. Fortification is done at factory level. You take a product, you add a premix to it, right? vitamin A or iron and thing and then uh market that. So it's at a processing stage. >> Biofortification happens at the seed and soil stage itself.
(23:53) The crop itself is rich in iron, rich in zinc. So it's the most natural form of uh nutrition. Now the advantage of biofortification is it's a one-time cost. Once you have built the variety, you do the upfront research, you release the variety, it stays in the food system for years together. So there's no additional cost for enriching a processed product.
(24:12) I have to add it every time and incur an additional cost and many of times it becomes unaffordable for people and then there are shelf life and other challenges which are there for fortified uh products right I can give you an example government of India allowed fortified rice in public distribution system and then they discontinued because the shelf life of that rice rice stays in our buffer stocks for 3 years and then this starts disintegrating when it's fortified and because you come from this back background. When something is
(24:43) naturally present in a grain, it stays there because it's, you know, it's bound by the food matrix. >> Nothing and no sunlight, no storage losses are the very minimal. So, you know, that's that's the key difference between fortification and biofortification. Now, let's come to your second question.
(25:01) Biofortification is done through conventional breeding. So, it's like a marriage, >> you know. So, the the example that I like to give is um There's one population of people where they're all tall guys >> and then there's another population of people where there are all fair girls >> right I mean say this is not my best example but then if you want to have a tall and fair kids right you keep on marrying these two populations years together and all that eventually when the the the offspring is both tall and uh fair so it's uh this thing it's
(25:39) natural selection which farmers have been doing for ages. So it's nothing new. It's just that it was being done mostly for getting >> higher yield or pest resistance or better climate response. What we did is we flipped it and we said why are you not doing it for higher zinc level, higher iron level. >> So it's simply a change in the lens that you are taking.
(26:04) It's a traditional method of breeding crops which has been there for ages. You just change the lens. So let me also look at nutrition because a seed can do much more. It's such a powerful thing, right? It can it doesn't it it doesn't need to be only a tool to feed people. It can also nourish people. >> And that's the simple question that's being answered through biofortification.
(26:27) >> There are technologies like GMO which can as well do this thing and uh but their usage is limited. there are so many regulatory loops that they have to cross. Uh and so biofortification primarily have been focusing on uh conventional breeding not the the GMO route. >> I mean this sounds like a no-brainer right everybody should do this biofortification.
(26:51) Why is it not being done or is it being done rampantly? So a it's being done as we speak around 623 million people have access to biofortified uh foods >> through the >> through across the globe right and uh means people who have been growing and consuming biofortified uh crops many of them don't know about it because it's a fluoride in the water approach farmers grew it they went into the food system etc and uh and but people are getting benefited from there why people don't know much about it.
(27:25) Partly we are to be blamed. We as an organization have been focusing mainly on the farmer side of the thing or on the research. We have been a scientific organization. We assumed you have a good science, it'll flourish on its own. You don't need to do much on the awareness side and uh so I think very little work was done on the awareness creation or a market building for this and it's also about evolution cycle.
(27:47) Generally an agriculture innovation takes around 40 years. We are now around 20 years in that cycle. So this is where you start pushing the paddle on the marketing and the demand creation side. So uh you know the first few decades had been primarily focusing on building the supply and now the focus was shifting more towards demand.
(28:08) That's why you will be seeing more of these products on your neighborhood shops and your online stores. >> They will sell as biofortified. >> They'll sell as biofortified food, right? You will see biofortified bars, biofortified ata, biofortified rice, whatnot. I mean say everything that's using staples, millets as ingredients has to be eventually. I said Dr.
(28:29) Paul look at it this phones are becoming smarter. Your TVs are becoming smarter. Why should our food stay dumb, right? I mean the food needs to be smarter. It's just the smarter food. >> So biofortified foods are expensive or same. No, I mean say you know if you look at the the biofortified seeds are the same cost.
(28:48) There is no change in agonomic practices that is needed. So biofortified food is has to be the same price as the regular food. The any additional price that's being charged by an organization is mainly because of the traceability that they are going to offer you. So if they are telling you that this is this crop is grown by X farmer and they have monitored it and all that they have the right to charge premium but biofortification as such is uh that's the biggest advantage of biofortification that it brings the cost parity at all levels.
(29:17) >> Wow. Give me examples of this biofortification like what have you done to enrich yourself something like >> so yeah so I think uh let's talk about India. India you I told you right we have zinc wheat, zinc rice, iron pearl millet, calcium finger millet uh etc. And then when we go to Africa, we have vitamin A maze, vitamin A cassava, we have uh iron beans, right? These are the crops.
(29:41) So our focus had been on staples mainly stuff. So >> m and kava not in India that much. >> No, not much. But what maze we are now you know I mean say working on a >> bringing this thing to India as well. I mean say there's a demand but because maize in India is not consumed much. It goes more main into poultry. Now there's a very interesting angle in fact uh that's being explored that you know I mean say like I said we are what we eat right eventually so if the chicken are fed this thing uh you know this vitamin A passes on to the eggs that lay etc and
(30:16) so there is a um you know kind of an indirect benefit that humans get out of this because our focus had been on human nutrition right so so now vitamin A is coming into play because it still has a human angle attached to Right. Uh the only challenge uh that we have is you know as an organization we have a limited bandwidth and focus.
(30:36) So we want to prioritize onto the staples which are giving a major chunk of uh calories in that particular country. So we are governed by something called as a biofortification priority index >> which takes into account that in a country that we are operating in from where does the you know the what's the key staple crop what are the key micronutrient deficiencies and then so these are the two three crop combination that we must prioritize >> wow so many people ask me what do should I have to eat organic foods okay my question my answer to them is first you
(31:08) should meet the fiber requirement or the protein requirement somehow if you're able offered organic go for it. If not just focus on the regular lifestyle where you can meet the fiber of the protein requirement. >> Look at it Dr. fall this way. You're all these are like spare tires in your car, right? I mean, say you need those for safety.
(31:30) >> But the real thing is if your road itself is broken, your food system is broken, you are leaking nutrition from it every year, 50 years, 50% loss means you have been losing at 1%. You know, and so what's going to happen if we don't change this trajectory? M >> you know my prediction is uh I really love Gen Gen Z and [laughter] and but I'm worried I think like I said in 20s everyone looks great right but what's going to happen to this generation 20 years from now I guess my biggest worry is you know the way we are
(32:05) moving forward we will have lot of gut damage that would have happened look at everyone just trying to kind of prioritize 150 gram of protein without caring about how much fiber fiber they are getting how much micronutrients they getting you know and and you can tell me that what's going to happen to their gut after 20 years right so >> the second worry that I have is immunity from where do we again I mean it's directly linked to the to the gut itself right you know I mean I'm preaching to the choir again but then most of our
(32:39) immunity is built in our gut >> and uh and then you have chronic stress you don't have zinc which is basically a precursor for creating getting your immunity you know again you're it's like every bug that walks in the room is going to make you sick and lastly which is very important is uh I think the hormonal dysfunction that people are going to uh focus I was reading this data that uh the sperm count in male have used to be 101 u million per migram it has come down to 49 and I say if moment it touches 40 it's like you know
(33:16) clinically moving towards infertility >> testosterone levels every year 1% decrease for last five decades >> so you know I mean say where are we headed if we don't change things I don't want to paint a very passive very very very uh kind of a pessimistic picture but the but I think we will have a generation of uh low immunity you know gut damaged and uh less potent uh people until unless we seriously do something about our food system and the chronic stress that we are living in.
(33:51) >> So uh I heard about the technique called sonic seasoning. What is that? >> That's very interesting. Uh one Dr. Paul. So you know the research says the taste is not only built in our taste buds in the tongue, right? It's built in our brain. So music or the sound that's playing around us can actually change the taste of the food that we are having.
(34:15) Now imagine have you ever thought that why does the food taste bland when we are flying in the airlines? >> I thought that the humidity is less. >> It's mainly because you know the white noise makes the food taste bland. >> So this cabin hum noise that we hear there that that's making the food bland. Now this is a very interesting application of it.
(34:38) High pitch noises like your windchimes, bells in the temper, right? They make food taste sweeter. >> I mean is there some data or >> Oh absolutely this is done this is backed by an Oxford based uh rich research which Dr. Charles have done which talks about >> the sonic seasoning that sound works as a seasoning for our food and likewise the low pitch sounds like low pitch pass or brass sound makes your food taste bitter. You can actually try it.
(35:10) Uh, you know, happy to share two sounds of this thing. You know, put your earphones, headphones up. Try tasting your coffee with both these sounds and you will see the the difference in the taste. The sweetness and the bitterness will vary with the the sound that you're hearing. >> I'm going to try. >> So, you know, so why this is important and this answers a very common question that people have that when we go to a temple or a guru, the food tastes much better there. Yeah.
(35:37) >> So obviously there's a scientific reason for it. You are like to those uh you know the bells chanting sounds and all that you know. So which makes food taste better. Also to do with which you know better than me of course is uh that your body has shifted from that fight and flight mode to rest and digest mode which is making your digestion taking care of everything.
(35:59) Your stress levels are lower and you're enjoying the food. So food in temples actually tastes better than in the home where you're all noisy. In fact, people can try this. I always tell people that you know switch off the cartoon shows that your kids are watching those high decibel you know cartoon shows and replace it with something calm piano solo or something and you see the difference you know it also will change the chewing speed.
(36:25) Now this is again I mean see you know you got me talking on this now so let me complete this. So And um and I'm sure you must have been hearing these so many queries nowadays. Everyone talking about a Zmpeic, right? But no one talks about slow chewing their food, right? Which is a natural. And I tell everyone that's your best here.
(36:47) You're you know you talk about GLP1 and you can do it yourself. Chew your food 20 times at least. Make your food last for 20 minutes and that's your natural. That will change so many things in uh your body. It says chew 32 times. One chew per teeth. >> Oh wow. I used to I I I've been telling 20 times. I guess I should correct myself. >> You cannot you cannot literally do 32 times.
(37:11) >> Yeah, exactly. But the idea is to slow it down, right? And I think that's one of the big challenge that >> uh the Gen Alpha and the Gen Z is facing, right? I mean, so they're eating when they're scrolling and they're just finishing their lunch. I've seen my my son's lunch doesn't last more than 5 minutes and uh and then the because your you know your leptin and py didn't get enough time to kind of act and then after 10 minutes you see him opening the fridge again because you have tricked your brain that you haven't eaten
(37:40) anything right so that's why I say that if we can inculcate un you know fortunately unfortunately the food science and the nutrition science actually is not a very glamorous subject it's built on boring habits >> [laughter] >> And slow chewing is one of those boring habits. If one can do it can do a magical uh thing. I've been practicing.
(38:01) I used to eat uh fast and I've seen that now I'm become more conscious. I'm eating slow. This has a huge impact on uh the amount of bloat, acidity, heartburn etc. that I used to have. >> So you are bringing the sonic seasoning to seats. >> No, we are not. I mean it's uh basically the concept that we that I love to talk about because from a perspective that the the whole journey of food is important how you grow where you grow and like you talked about how you cook >> you know let's talk about cooking uh the most strong argument against plant-based
(38:40) food have been bioavailability right the people don't know the simple cooking techniques can increase bioavailability multiple times times right I like to talk about this concept you know many times it's called fuss >> ferment your uh you know food as much as you can right I mean say like I said I don't need to tell this in people in Chennai they know they know it I mean they've been fermenting their food for uh years now and makes a huge difference right I mean say particularly fighting those anti-nutrient phitates which we
(39:12) say which have been blocking this and using >> the fermentation is the probiotic right there. >> Absolutely. >> That is the most important thing. >> Absolutely. And I mean the fermentation was there for before these uh you know functional food brands made it a trend right now and this has been there for ages and uh and this has helped our folks in the past as well and fermentation is something that people should stick to and can make a huge difference particularly plant-based foods. It's like it it does a wonderful
(39:42) thing in terms of breaking those phates and making those nutrients available. uh you know using whole foods right I mean say when you remove the upper layer most of the nutrients are gone right so when you refine your uh flour when you over polish your rice you are doing a big you know disservice to your body so retain that that's that's another thing that you can do then soaking and uh sprouting is a again another and sprouting even new vitamins are uh created so that does a wonderful full uh job right and then
(40:19) uh even switching ingredients people have been now getting fixated on a single diet every day they are you know doing most of these uh food that they want to their favorite food every day and so I think as long as and if you look at our old times we were switching that food right every uh every day there was a new dal that was made every day there was a new millet that was eaten right or a new grain that was eaten And obviously I mean say again like I said from a gut perspective also very good for our uh you know microbiome creates
(40:53) the diversity that it needs. So cooking makes uh you know has a huge bearing on uh the way it's uh there and then the last stage is eating and that's where we came to the slow eating and the sonic seasoning the environment in which you are eating and uh so I tell everyone you know no single innovation is going to solve your problems right people can have an argument against plant-based foods that bioavailability is not there but then you need to change your way of cooking and eating as well and that will have a that will unlock the full uh
(41:24) spectrum of benefits for you >> and uh the most exciting part of what you guys do that I am really really interested is your nutri pala where you are focusing on the next generation of teaching nutrition to kids. I really want my audience to know what you do in this bachala and what is your goal? >> There are 12 cr kids in the primary schools in India.
(41:50) If we can teach them nutrition from very early on from their prechool times you know they will pass on this information to future generations as well. So this is an investment into future that we are doing and um as as I like to say that most of the nutrition education in India is actually restricted to Instagram >> and and is uh primarily done for uh you know adults >> adults >> and the reason and you know it's like teaching someone driving after the accident has happened.
(42:24) So we want to make these kids right uh fit for future and so we started this whole new tree partala program where we created these age appropriate modules and uh we engage these uh you know volunteers from uh genz our generation jabardust to come and uh teach these kids as nutri buddies >> and uh they teach them about nutrition in a gamified way.
(42:48) We have those cartoon characters and um we have recently also launched a newspaper called Nutri Bachala newspaper which basically also is taking some time off from the screen and teaching kids nutrition in a very gamified uh way >> for our audience. If you have to leave one last thing that you want to say to better their health in terms of food as medicine what will you say? I think my last thing that I like to leave our audience with with this uh at the cost of repeating myself in fact two things one is that we are not what we eat but
(43:23) we are what our food eats. So it's important for us to you know find the source of the food how it's grown and it's very important for us our health depends on what was done with the food throughout the cycle how was how was it transported how was it grown etc. So go deeper than the label.
(43:42) The second one is you know like and this is to the younger generation which thinks they are physically invincible. Yes, you are my friends but you know life will come calling at 40s. So prepare your gut for your 40s. You know have this main character energy at 40s and stay active till 60. That's going to be the real flex. So be respectful to your gut.
(44:03) That's what I like to say. >> I'm so happy for you to be in my podcast with you. I'm sure my audience will have a bigger idea about how food can be medicine. Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Dr. Paul.
Author Name:Dr Pal
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@DrPal
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq_sc-4EQ3Y
Title: Why Are Indians Getting Sick Despite Eating Healthy?
Author Name: Dr Pal
Description: Is the rice, wheat and everyday food on your plate as nutritious as you think?
In this episode Dr. Pal speaks with Ravindra Grover from HarvestPlus about the changing nutritional quality of our food, hidden hunger, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, soil health and the role of biofortification.
They explore why modern rice and wheat may contain fewer micronutrients, how iron and zinc deficiencies can contribute to malnutrition, and why being full doesn’t always mean being well-nourished. The conversation also covers food adulteration in India, food labels, ultra-processed foods, organic vs biofortified food, calcium rich ragi, plant based diets, Vitamin B12 and gut health.
Watch the full podcast to understand what may really be happening to the food on your plate.
Time stamps :
00:00 - 01:26 — Promo
01:27 - 04:19 — Introduction to the guest
04:20 - 05:17 — Has Our Food Really Lost 50% of Its Nutrition?
05:18 - 06:29 — What Is Hidden Hunger?
06:30 - 09:36 — Why Our Soil Is Losing Nutrients
09:37 - 12:05 — You Are What Your Food Eats
12:06 - 13:55 — Can We Really Trust Food Labels?
13:56 - 16:39 — India vs US Food Regulations
16:40 - 18:45 — What Is Biofortification?
18:46 - 20:16 — Ragi, Bajra & Nutrient-Rich Traditional Foods
20:17 - 21:47 — How to Identify Biofortified Foods
21:48 - 22:57 — Dr. Pal's NewME Initiative
22:58 - 24:57 — Fortification vs Biofortification
24:58 - 26:44 — Is Biofortification the Same as GMO?
26:45 - 28:39 — Why Isn't Biofortified Food Everywhere Yet?
28:40 - 29:16 — Are Biofortified Foods More Expensive?
29:17 - 31:01 — Zinc Wheat, Iron Bajra & Other Biofortified Crops
31:02 - 31:47 — Do You Really Need to Eat Organic?
31:48 - 33:50 — What Will Gen Z's Health Look Like in 20 Years?
33:51 - 36:30 — Sonic Seasoning: Can Sound Change How Food Tastes?
36:31 - 38:30 — Why Eating Slowly Matters
38:31 - 41:25 — How Cooking Changes Nutrient Absorption
41:26 - 43:01 — Why Nutrition Should Be Taught to Children
43:02 - 44:15— The Most Important Lesson About Your Food
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Transcript:
(00:00) food used to be much more nutritious 50 years back. ICR's own study which says we have lost up to 50% of nutrition in our common food and the result of it is most of our people they look healthy but they're suffering from >> oh my god >> onethird of our soils are degraded. If your rice is being grown in a soil which is nutrient deficient, [music] the science says it will have nutrients up to 80% lower than a crop that's grown in a soil which has adequate amount of nutrients.
(00:38) >> Hidden hunger. Explain that. >> So hidden hunger is when your body is full but your cells are starving. the body hasn't got the desired amount of protein, desired amount of zinc and that's why you have obese people who are having [music] last month 2.3 cr liters of milk was found which was made from detergents.
(00:59) The soya chaff that we have been eating in North India has no soya in it. >> Oh my god. >> We can read all the labels we want as long as we don't have laws to tackle this willful adulteration. We cannot 100% trust those labels. >> What is the explanation that we should give that the same food is not the same? >> People used to say that you are what you eat >> but in reality.
(01:27) >> Hello guys, welcome to another episode of our podcast series Gat feeling with Dr. Pal. In this episode we are interviewing Mr. Rainda Grover a person involved in a non-government organization called Harvest Plus. And the aim of this organization is to make sure that food is medicine. And they are teaching us how to grow biofortified crops.
(01:48) In this episode, we are talking about how we can improve the quality of the food that we are eating. How do we identify these foods? What is biofortification? How can we increase micronutrient deficiencies even without taking a multivitamin supplement in future? This episode is mind-blowing. We talked about a lot and lot of good points about how do we fortify our health.
(02:09) I'm sure you will learn a lot from this podcast. Let's dive deep into it. Thank you, Mr. Rainda. Thank you so much. I'm excited for this podcast because all the Genzi kids are telling me that our grandparents ate the same food. We are also eating the same food. Why we are getting diseases and not them? What is the explanation that we should give that the same food is not the same? I think uh Jenzi to me is is like one of the cool creative confident generation right and they've got many things right when it comes to health I guess the first generation who has been
(02:42) trying to optimize not only for weight loss but for feeling good [clears throat] >> right they track their health they're reading labels they're doing so many things right they're vocal about mental health like it's no more stigma >> correct >> so I think they're doing fantastic but al they're also a bit unfort fortunate in a way the food environment has evolved >> right I mean say they are living in a what I call as a obesogenic environment >> you know where this algorithm is actually trying to make you eat more
(03:10) giving you all kind of temptations >> and uh move less >> so that's one of the big problems that they are facing then uh couple it with digital chronic stress that they are facing you know those continuous notifications the media so much >> that's it's Like you know we in the old very very old times people used to have this fear of uh being chased by a tiger and that's it's a similar environment you know we are living in a similar amount of stress only difference is is now digital stress rather than the the stress that we used to have. So it's a
(03:45) difficult environment that these folks are living in and then they try to get out of it by aesthetic eating, chasing quick fixes, right? And uh grazing all the day, skipping regular meals. >> Correct? >> Let me tell you this is not going to help, right? So this is going to create problems. >> Now people say that when our old generation used to eat same food.
(04:09) No, that's not correct. You know the older generation they were a they were eating less frequently. Food was mostly home-cooked >> and food was actually nutritious. >> Food used to be much more nutritious 50 years back. We have lost up to 50% of nutrition in our common food. So it's not the same. >> Is that true? We have lost 50%.
(04:30) >> Oh absolutely. Yeah, I mean see you know if you look at the data ICR's own study which says that the and I've said it many times that the roti in old times used to give us 56% of our zinc RDA. Now it gives only 25% which is less than uh 50%. Same story with rice. So this is >> RDA is a required dietary allowance.
(04:52) Yes. >> Per day you should have that. >> Exactly. So you know which means our zinc and our roti has been on uh continuous uh decrease. Same story for iron. You know our food is becoming less and less nutritious. Uh Dr. Paul and so we need to fix this. That's the key challenge and the result of it is that most of our people they look healthy but they're suffering from something which we like to call as hidden hunger.
(05:18) >> Hidden hunger. Explain that. >> So hidden hunger is when your body is full but your cells are starving. M so you know you eat you think I have got a signal of satiety from my body but then the body hasn't got the desired amount of protein desired amount of zinc iron micronutrients fiber etc and the result is that that's why we see this uh uh phenomena where most of the folks in our country are overfed but have still having malnutrition >> you know I mean science tells very interestingly I mean if you look at the
(05:52) theories like protein leverage hypothesis or specific appetite theory which tells very clearly that our body needs a particular nutrient and until unless that need is met body keeps on craving for the food and the end result is you keep on eating more thinking that I'm not full and that's why you have obese people who are having malnutrition so that's a kind of a you know dilemma that people have right now that even after having adequate amount of food they still not able to meet their micronutrient >> I'm very surprised to here that every
(06:25) nutrient is decreased by 50%. Is that because of the soil? Is because of the environment? What happened? >> So I think there are few factors which are in play. The first and foremost is of course uh the the decreasing nutrientation density. We have been breeding crops for higher productivity. So at the seed level, this is the major change that happened.
(06:48) The modern varieties are high yielding but they're very low in uh micronutrients. So that's why that's one of the reason. The second thing is the soil health. Soil health has been on a continuous decline. You know uh uh I don't know if you know this fact in India the organic carbon level in our soil is 5%.
(07:07) It should be 5% ideally. So our onethird of our soils are degraded. >> So tell me what organic carbon does. >> So organic carbon is basically like your you know it's your gut of uh like the role that gut plays in our body. That's a gut of our soil, right? All the microbes and everything, they need those to feed and survive.
(07:27) So that's basically the lifeblood of our soil. >> Oh my god. >> So if you don't have organic carbon, which means you're dealing with slowly near dead soils and uh and you know food is gets its nutrition from where it is grown and how it is grown and then if the soils are dead, you can't expect a nutritious food to come out of it.
(07:46) Right? So soil seeds have been two key factors. And the third one is on the ultrarocessed food. The way we have been processing our foods takes away you know fiber takes away micronutrients. It's just empty calories packed in a hyper palatable way which makes it very engaging and uh repeat purchase is huge but it doesn't really help our >> repeat hospital admissions are good.
(08:08) [laughter] repeat admissions are also are are there [snorts] and lastly I think it's also about at the consumer level like I said you know we when you're living in this um chronic stress you you know your cortisol levels are high right your cycles are totally gone you do this you're living in a hyperconvenient environment where 2:00 a.m.
(08:32) Snacking is pretty much uh >> very common thing. >> Very common thing, right? And when you are young it you you really don't care. I mean you think my gut is made of steel, right? I mean you know everyone looks great in 20s. I mean the real flex is you should look great in your 40s. You should have same energy in your 60s. You should have more life to the ears.
(08:50) And that's uh that's I think the key thing. Uh >> so so when they are young they think they're iron man and when they're old they are a man with no iron. Oh, absolutely. I think that physical invincibility factor and we used to have that too, right? We used to think that I can uh do late night snacking at 2 a.m.
(09:07) get up at 8 a.m. nothing happens, right? It's it doesn't I mean say at that time there's this huge metabolic cushion that you have. Your cellular turnover is really fast, right? And you're living what I call in a grace period. The bill is not going to come till the time you turn 40.
(09:25) And when the bill comes, you know, you really can't reverse it. It's not Samana's carrier that you'll have a carrier that you'll have a comeback happening there. If it's damaged then damage is many a times permanent. >> That's true. That's true. I won't focus on a little bit on that soil thing. Um so let's say when somebody eats rice roti we really don't focus on where the original ingredient is being sourced from.
(09:53) Uh for example let's say I live in Chennai and then I'm eating a rice here. How do we find where this rice is coming from? >> So you know this is a very important question. I think uh you know health awareness is increasing but it's increasing to the extent that people are now reading the label and saying oh this is a good rice this is a product etc and all that but I think the need is to go one step deeper and ask how it was grown.
(10:16) Uh >> you know my takeaway from u my own personal life and from my study of nutrition had been that people used to say that you are what you eat. >> But in reality you are what your food eats. >> Oh >> you know look at it from this perspective. If your rice is being grown in a soil which is nutrient deficient, the science says it will have nutrients up to 80% lower than a crop that's grown in a soil which has adequate amount of nutrients.
(10:51) Because crops have no other way of synthesizing nutrition, right? They synthesize they absorb it from the soil. So if your soils are deficient, that's the first factor that plays into comes into picture. The second one is it also depends on absorption capacity of the seeds which are put in those soils. If your seeds are not bred properly, your crops cannot absorb nutrition.
(11:11) So that's why it's very important for people to go a level down and ask where was this rice grown? Right? And it applies for every food. When we talk about livestock, you know, how you're reading your those chicken, is there adequate amount of sunlight? You know, are they being fed antibiotics? cage-free all that matters because you know that decides so any toxicity or any nutrition just walks upwards right so in the food chain so it's important for us to go to the building blocks and see were those building blocks perfect
(11:43) >> so if you are looking for say nutrient-dense crops you should look whether this crop is biofortified is it nutrientdense right can I use it do they bring higher amount of zinc iron so just looking at protein and calories is not enough Right? You need to go deeper look at what what fiber do these crops bring? Uh what micronutrients are they bringing? Where were they grown? What were the conditions etc.
(12:06) >> So let's say a label says like okay I'm just saying example zinc of like 20%. I'm just saying going down the next step what will we get? Will we get that okay zinc is really 20%, if the soil is good is that the research that we should do. >> So I think the you know the reading labels is important right I mean but I want to come in at the labels from a thing.
(12:31) how much reality these labels present in a country like ours. >> Look, I think uh people have been eating those soya chops. >> Yes. >> For years thinking that they're high in protein, you know, plant-based alternative. And I I'm sure you have seen this recent video of a kid literally taking bath in that uh >> uh ma batter. >> So, first of all, the soya chop that we have been eating in North India has no soya in it. It's it's made from madabat.
(12:57) So that's the first realization that you should have. >> The second one is you know the imagine if someone would have been reading labels just on a thing they don't know what is happening are they getting the real product. I give you an example of Maharashtra I think last month 2.3 cr liters of milk was found which was made from detergents.
(13:19) >> Oh my god. So you know so we can read all the labels we want as long as we don't have laws to tackle this willful adulteration. We cannot 100% trust those labels. I know many food companies who have been putting 2x nutrition, 3x nutrition on their labels and all that. But who is doing testing? Testing is very minimal.
(13:41) So no one is calling out their claims except for now a few independent labs have started to do. So the sanctity of those labels is is in itself is questionable, right? So I think it's important for people not to stop at just reading labels and assume everything is hunky dory. >> How do you compare US standards? Even in US there is uh there's no regulation about the overthe-counter supplements and all those things, right? They can do whatever they want on the dietary ingredients.
(14:07) Do you know any insight about the regulations in the US and in India? Because you have your headquarters in the US. So you know supplements is a different uh domain again and controlled by uh different regulatory body right but I think as far as food is concerned uh the one thing that I see a huge difference is that setting up a food business there requires a lot of prep work >> is right >> compare it with a country like India anyone can get up and open a food startup tomorrow right and why they can do it because >> you know eventually nothing is going to
(14:42) go wrong and uh >> you know this whole philosophy of that uh start first perfect later it can apply to it but it can't apply to food you can't play with people's life and I guess that's a huge difference between the way west operates and the way we operate here >> and that's why I say food is something that should be treated with lot of stricter uh regulatory guidelines because it affects people's life right so so I guess that's a key thing you know we need stricter laws and >> but with all these awareness coming
(15:15) coming don't you think that the laws would be stricter more now in India as well >> I I hope so I think we move in that direction right and uh >> but as of now it is not the case >> but the speed of uh change has been slow and I think that's something that we need to uh work on and uh you know I guess there's plenty to learn from other places like you know >> uh we don't need to do the same set of mistakes Take example of our nutrition ratings right I mean so we have been grappling with this subject of having
(15:46) nutrition ratings Europe has such a beautiful system you can see that uh you know if a product is high in salt sugar fat you don't need to flip the pack you can see it in the front itself right and that gives to an person a very clear indication of whether I should be and if someone is picking still picking that product he knows this I'm doing it out of indulgence right >> it's a conscious decision >> it's a conscious decision >> this is in uh this happens in Singapore, >> Europe I mean Singapore also has a its
(16:14) own uh rating system and India is contemplating but it's kind of going on for quite some time and again uh I mean you know India is looking at creating something called as a INR Indian nutri nutrition rating system >> but again it doesn't consider micronutrients in it so you know it's like we will solve one problem and then 20 years uh forward we will come back and say hey I should have probably included micronutrients as Well there >> as an NGO you do biofortification to enrich the nutrients of the common ingredients that we are eating to so
(16:48) that you can reach the masses. >> Absolutely. So you know our vision of uh combating malnutrition had been through agricultural innovation and we chose staples because staples is what everyone eats right um um there are many folks who just eat a plate of rice and few roties probably and that's their you know whole day is food >> so now we need to enrich these crops so our focus >> what all the common staples >> so our focus has been on wheat rice millets in millets particularly uh pearl millet uh finger millet sorum and uh
(17:25) then beans in Africa we have been focusing on beans cassava maze >> and the nutrients that we focus on are you know the key nutrient deficiencies across the world are for iron zinc uh vitamin A and so we have varieties of crops for example in India we have uh zinc rich wheat zinc rich rice iron pearl millet calcium rich finger mir I so I don't need to tell you you come from south India this has been a culinary capital of microbial alani right and ragi had been known here for uh a long ages >> exactly >> and so
(18:04) >> but still we don't eat it [laughter] >> but yeah I mean we got uh still have raggi malt and uh things right which are like in it's amazing to know people asked that you know I I can't really replace uh milk and I say you know why can't you replace oh I'll struggle for calcium and then my answer is you know just have two biofortified raggi roties they have more calcium than a glass of milk people really >> I think we have done a very poor job in educating people about the nutritive value of the food and the supplement
(18:42) industry have definitely outperformed in that area >> so rag is rich in calcium >> yes >> and that is what you were you were saying >> absolutely so so it makes a lot of sense particularly now when the veganism and this thing you know people are looking for alternatives so ragi makes so much sense uh there likewise uh pearl millet you know iron deficiency and u much more so for women right uh uh women need almost double the amount of iron that men need right in pregnancy it's almost like triple the amount of >> uh iron that men need and uh so that's
(19:21) what creates a biggest gender nutrition gap because their baseline itself is very high and unfortunately like we discussed that the iron levels in our crops have been dwindling and which means women are at more risk and this is not a surprise that nearly 60% of women in India are anemic uh you know what else do we expect when our crop baselines have been on a continuous decrease so that's where crops like iron pearl millet iron Enrich bajrain enrich beans they make a huge difference uh coming in and uh solving this problem.
(19:55) >> So so you know as an organization you guys are doing great job you know educating people uh bringing the farmers in giving the fortified seeds and also other uh methods for them to grow as a consumer. How do I know that this pearl millet is ironrich or if I want to buy an iron rich pearl millet? How should I go about? >> That has been a key challenge of lately, right? Um Dr.
(20:21) Paul, our focus had been initially on um we came from the farmers side and our idea was that build let's build the supply chains let farmers first accept these varieties and for >> first 15 years our focus was release these varieties, get these varieties adopted by the farmers. We didn't focus on c uh on consumers. >> Um but then when farmers started adopting it, we realized that they have a now a surplus which they want to market and we need to do some consumer side uh demand creation as well.
(20:53) So last few years our focus has been on creating this consumer demand. Uh we have uh released uh a mark which is called a biofortification mark. So you can see it on the products and uh see that these crops are biofortified. You know you asked about how do people realize that they are coming from a better source.
(21:15) So so we we putting that biofortified marks many uh startups and food companies are adopting that mark. So consumer can figure out that this is a product and it clearly mentions which are which are ingredients are there like iron bridge pearl millet and calcium rich finger millet. So they can see it.
(21:32) So this is being done both for snacks and staples. So that has been a major major win for us u in the recent years. It's still scaling. I mean more and more organizations are uh coming forward and I hope more people who are watching more founders who are watching us will reach out to us. >> So sorry for interrupting the podcast flow but let me take one minute to tell you about something I have passionately put together the new lifestyle medicine clinic.
(21:58) If you're struggling with diabetes, hypertension, fatty liver, obesity, or any other chronic lifestyle conditions, Numei lifestyle medicine is designed to help you build longlasting habits and not just give you another diet chart, a detailed evaluation with a doctor, a clinical health coach. I personally review your profile and based on your medical needs, we create a three or a six-month plan for you.
(22:21) Our doctors follow up with you regularly while clinical health coaches personally trained by me guide you through nutrition and sustainable habit change. But health is not just about food and mumi. We also bring together movement through our virtual online gym. You could just log in anywhere from anytime. Physiootherapy support where required, stress relaxation techniques and access to mental health therapies.
(22:43) This is what I believe healthcare should be. not just treating the disease but helping you prevent and manage it through sustainable lifestyle change. If that sounds like the support you need, visit drpalmi.com and check out the program link in the description. We have learned about fortification uh while we were studying preventive medicine, social and preventive medicine.
(23:03) We said that that is the only way to reach masses. U but nowadays the question is oh you doing some kind of an engineering like biofortification will that affect our health? Is it AI? How will you? >> So yeah, so this again there's always a confusion between biofortification and fortification. Let's first address that, right? And then biofortification and I I know what you meant by what you mean by biotechnology, right? People have that.
(23:29) Is it GMO? Is it transgenic? Let's address both the questions. >> First biofortification and fortification. Fortification is done at factory level. You take a product, you add a premix to it, right? vitamin A or iron and thing and then uh market that. So it's at a processing stage. >> Biofortification happens at the seed and soil stage itself.
(23:53) The crop itself is rich in iron, rich in zinc. So it's the most natural form of uh nutrition. Now the advantage of biofortification is it's a one-time cost. Once you have built the variety, you do the upfront research, you release the variety, it stays in the food system for years together. So there's no additional cost for enriching a processed product.
(24:12) I have to add it every time and incur an additional cost and many of times it becomes unaffordable for people and then there are shelf life and other challenges which are there for fortified uh products right I can give you an example government of India allowed fortified rice in public distribution system and then they discontinued because the shelf life of that rice rice stays in our buffer stocks for 3 years and then this starts disintegrating when it's fortified and because you come from this back background. When something is
(24:43) naturally present in a grain, it stays there because it's, you know, it's bound by the food matrix. >> Nothing and no sunlight, no storage losses are the very minimal. So, you know, that's that's the key difference between fortification and biofortification. Now, let's come to your second question.
(25:01) Biofortification is done through conventional breeding. So, it's like a marriage, >> you know. So, the the example that I like to give is um There's one population of people where they're all tall guys >> and then there's another population of people where there are all fair girls >> right I mean say this is not my best example but then if you want to have a tall and fair kids right you keep on marrying these two populations years together and all that eventually when the the the offspring is both tall and uh fair so it's uh this thing it's
(25:39) natural selection which farmers have been doing for ages. So it's nothing new. It's just that it was being done mostly for getting >> higher yield or pest resistance or better climate response. What we did is we flipped it and we said why are you not doing it for higher zinc level, higher iron level. >> So it's simply a change in the lens that you are taking.
(26:04) It's a traditional method of breeding crops which has been there for ages. You just change the lens. So let me also look at nutrition because a seed can do much more. It's such a powerful thing, right? It can it doesn't it it doesn't need to be only a tool to feed people. It can also nourish people. >> And that's the simple question that's being answered through biofortification.
(26:27) >> There are technologies like GMO which can as well do this thing and uh but their usage is limited. there are so many regulatory loops that they have to cross. Uh and so biofortification primarily have been focusing on uh conventional breeding not the the GMO route. >> I mean this sounds like a no-brainer right everybody should do this biofortification.
(26:51) Why is it not being done or is it being done rampantly? So a it's being done as we speak around 623 million people have access to biofortified uh foods >> through the >> through across the globe right and uh means people who have been growing and consuming biofortified uh crops many of them don't know about it because it's a fluoride in the water approach farmers grew it they went into the food system etc and uh and but people are getting benefited from there why people don't know much about it.
(27:25) Partly we are to be blamed. We as an organization have been focusing mainly on the farmer side of the thing or on the research. We have been a scientific organization. We assumed you have a good science, it'll flourish on its own. You don't need to do much on the awareness side and uh so I think very little work was done on the awareness creation or a market building for this and it's also about evolution cycle.
(27:47) Generally an agriculture innovation takes around 40 years. We are now around 20 years in that cycle. So this is where you start pushing the paddle on the marketing and the demand creation side. So uh you know the first few decades had been primarily focusing on building the supply and now the focus was shifting more towards demand.
(28:08) That's why you will be seeing more of these products on your neighborhood shops and your online stores. >> They will sell as biofortified. >> They'll sell as biofortified food, right? You will see biofortified bars, biofortified ata, biofortified rice, whatnot. I mean say everything that's using staples, millets as ingredients has to be eventually. I said Dr.
(28:29) Paul look at it this phones are becoming smarter. Your TVs are becoming smarter. Why should our food stay dumb, right? I mean the food needs to be smarter. It's just the smarter food. >> So biofortified foods are expensive or same. No, I mean say you know if you look at the the biofortified seeds are the same cost.
(28:48) There is no change in agonomic practices that is needed. So biofortified food is has to be the same price as the regular food. The any additional price that's being charged by an organization is mainly because of the traceability that they are going to offer you. So if they are telling you that this is this crop is grown by X farmer and they have monitored it and all that they have the right to charge premium but biofortification as such is uh that's the biggest advantage of biofortification that it brings the cost parity at all levels.
(29:17) >> Wow. Give me examples of this biofortification like what have you done to enrich yourself something like >> so yeah so I think uh let's talk about India. India you I told you right we have zinc wheat, zinc rice, iron pearl millet, calcium finger millet uh etc. And then when we go to Africa, we have vitamin A maze, vitamin A cassava, we have uh iron beans, right? These are the crops.
(29:41) So our focus had been on staples mainly stuff. So >> m and kava not in India that much. >> No, not much. But what maze we are now you know I mean say working on a >> bringing this thing to India as well. I mean say there's a demand but because maize in India is not consumed much. It goes more main into poultry. Now there's a very interesting angle in fact uh that's being explored that you know I mean say like I said we are what we eat right eventually so if the chicken are fed this thing uh you know this vitamin A passes on to the eggs that lay etc and
(30:16) so there is a um you know kind of an indirect benefit that humans get out of this because our focus had been on human nutrition right so so now vitamin A is coming into play because it still has a human angle attached to Right. Uh the only challenge uh that we have is you know as an organization we have a limited bandwidth and focus.
(30:36) So we want to prioritize onto the staples which are giving a major chunk of uh calories in that particular country. So we are governed by something called as a biofortification priority index >> which takes into account that in a country that we are operating in from where does the you know the what's the key staple crop what are the key micronutrient deficiencies and then so these are the two three crop combination that we must prioritize >> wow so many people ask me what do should I have to eat organic foods okay my question my answer to them is first you
(31:08) should meet the fiber requirement or the protein requirement somehow if you're able offered organic go for it. If not just focus on the regular lifestyle where you can meet the fiber of the protein requirement. >> Look at it Dr. fall this way. You're all these are like spare tires in your car, right? I mean, say you need those for safety.
(31:30) >> But the real thing is if your road itself is broken, your food system is broken, you are leaking nutrition from it every year, 50 years, 50% loss means you have been losing at 1%. You know, and so what's going to happen if we don't change this trajectory? M >> you know my prediction is uh I really love Gen Gen Z and [laughter] and but I'm worried I think like I said in 20s everyone looks great right but what's going to happen to this generation 20 years from now I guess my biggest worry is you know the way we are
(32:05) moving forward we will have lot of gut damage that would have happened look at everyone just trying to kind of prioritize 150 gram of protein without caring about how much fiber fiber they are getting how much micronutrients they getting you know and and you can tell me that what's going to happen to their gut after 20 years right so >> the second worry that I have is immunity from where do we again I mean it's directly linked to the to the gut itself right you know I mean I'm preaching to the choir again but then most of our
(32:39) immunity is built in our gut >> and uh and then you have chronic stress you don't have zinc which is basically a precursor for creating getting your immunity you know again you're it's like every bug that walks in the room is going to make you sick and lastly which is very important is uh I think the hormonal dysfunction that people are going to uh focus I was reading this data that uh the sperm count in male have used to be 101 u million per migram it has come down to 49 and I say if moment it touches 40 it's like you know
(33:16) clinically moving towards infertility >> testosterone levels every year 1% decrease for last five decades >> so you know I mean say where are we headed if we don't change things I don't want to paint a very passive very very very uh kind of a pessimistic picture but the but I think we will have a generation of uh low immunity you know gut damaged and uh less potent uh people until unless we seriously do something about our food system and the chronic stress that we are living in.
(33:51) >> So uh I heard about the technique called sonic seasoning. What is that? >> That's very interesting. Uh one Dr. Paul. So you know the research says the taste is not only built in our taste buds in the tongue, right? It's built in our brain. So music or the sound that's playing around us can actually change the taste of the food that we are having.
(34:15) Now imagine have you ever thought that why does the food taste bland when we are flying in the airlines? >> I thought that the humidity is less. >> It's mainly because you know the white noise makes the food taste bland. >> So this cabin hum noise that we hear there that that's making the food bland. Now this is a very interesting application of it.
(34:38) High pitch noises like your windchimes, bells in the temper, right? They make food taste sweeter. >> I mean is there some data or >> Oh absolutely this is done this is backed by an Oxford based uh rich research which Dr. Charles have done which talks about >> the sonic seasoning that sound works as a seasoning for our food and likewise the low pitch sounds like low pitch pass or brass sound makes your food taste bitter. You can actually try it.
(35:10) Uh, you know, happy to share two sounds of this thing. You know, put your earphones, headphones up. Try tasting your coffee with both these sounds and you will see the the difference in the taste. The sweetness and the bitterness will vary with the the sound that you're hearing. >> I'm going to try. >> So, you know, so why this is important and this answers a very common question that people have that when we go to a temple or a guru, the food tastes much better there. Yeah.
(35:37) >> So obviously there's a scientific reason for it. You are like to those uh you know the bells chanting sounds and all that you know. So which makes food taste better. Also to do with which you know better than me of course is uh that your body has shifted from that fight and flight mode to rest and digest mode which is making your digestion taking care of everything.
(35:59) Your stress levels are lower and you're enjoying the food. So food in temples actually tastes better than in the home where you're all noisy. In fact, people can try this. I always tell people that you know switch off the cartoon shows that your kids are watching those high decibel you know cartoon shows and replace it with something calm piano solo or something and you see the difference you know it also will change the chewing speed.
(36:25) Now this is again I mean see you know you got me talking on this now so let me complete this. So And um and I'm sure you must have been hearing these so many queries nowadays. Everyone talking about a Zmpeic, right? But no one talks about slow chewing their food, right? Which is a natural. And I tell everyone that's your best here.
(36:47) You're you know you talk about GLP1 and you can do it yourself. Chew your food 20 times at least. Make your food last for 20 minutes and that's your natural. That will change so many things in uh your body. It says chew 32 times. One chew per teeth. >> Oh wow. I used to I I I've been telling 20 times. I guess I should correct myself. >> You cannot you cannot literally do 32 times.
(37:11) >> Yeah, exactly. But the idea is to slow it down, right? And I think that's one of the big challenge that >> uh the Gen Alpha and the Gen Z is facing, right? I mean, so they're eating when they're scrolling and they're just finishing their lunch. I've seen my my son's lunch doesn't last more than 5 minutes and uh and then the because your you know your leptin and py didn't get enough time to kind of act and then after 10 minutes you see him opening the fridge again because you have tricked your brain that you haven't eaten
(37:40) anything right so that's why I say that if we can inculcate un you know fortunately unfortunately the food science and the nutrition science actually is not a very glamorous subject it's built on boring habits >> [laughter] >> And slow chewing is one of those boring habits. If one can do it can do a magical uh thing. I've been practicing.
(38:01) I used to eat uh fast and I've seen that now I'm become more conscious. I'm eating slow. This has a huge impact on uh the amount of bloat, acidity, heartburn etc. that I used to have. >> So you are bringing the sonic seasoning to seats. >> No, we are not. I mean it's uh basically the concept that we that I love to talk about because from a perspective that the the whole journey of food is important how you grow where you grow and like you talked about how you cook >> you know let's talk about cooking uh the most strong argument against plant-based
(38:40) food have been bioavailability right the people don't know the simple cooking techniques can increase bioavailability multiple times times right I like to talk about this concept you know many times it's called fuss >> ferment your uh you know food as much as you can right I mean say like I said I don't need to tell this in people in Chennai they know they know it I mean they've been fermenting their food for uh years now and makes a huge difference right I mean say particularly fighting those anti-nutrient phitates which we
(39:12) say which have been blocking this and using >> the fermentation is the probiotic right there. >> Absolutely. >> That is the most important thing. >> Absolutely. And I mean the fermentation was there for before these uh you know functional food brands made it a trend right now and this has been there for ages and uh and this has helped our folks in the past as well and fermentation is something that people should stick to and can make a huge difference particularly plant-based foods. It's like it it does a wonderful
(39:42) thing in terms of breaking those phates and making those nutrients available. uh you know using whole foods right I mean say when you remove the upper layer most of the nutrients are gone right so when you refine your uh flour when you over polish your rice you are doing a big you know disservice to your body so retain that that's that's another thing that you can do then soaking and uh sprouting is a again another and sprouting even new vitamins are uh created so that does a wonderful full uh job right and then
(40:19) uh even switching ingredients people have been now getting fixated on a single diet every day they are you know doing most of these uh food that they want to their favorite food every day and so I think as long as and if you look at our old times we were switching that food right every uh every day there was a new dal that was made every day there was a new millet that was eaten right or a new grain that was eaten And obviously I mean say again like I said from a gut perspective also very good for our uh you know microbiome creates
(40:53) the diversity that it needs. So cooking makes uh you know has a huge bearing on uh the way it's uh there and then the last stage is eating and that's where we came to the slow eating and the sonic seasoning the environment in which you are eating and uh so I tell everyone you know no single innovation is going to solve your problems right people can have an argument against plant-based foods that bioavailability is not there but then you need to change your way of cooking and eating as well and that will have a that will unlock the full uh
(41:24) spectrum of benefits for you >> and uh the most exciting part of what you guys do that I am really really interested is your nutri pala where you are focusing on the next generation of teaching nutrition to kids. I really want my audience to know what you do in this bachala and what is your goal? >> There are 12 cr kids in the primary schools in India.
(41:50) If we can teach them nutrition from very early on from their prechool times you know they will pass on this information to future generations as well. So this is an investment into future that we are doing and um as as I like to say that most of the nutrition education in India is actually restricted to Instagram >> and and is uh primarily done for uh you know adults >> adults >> and the reason and you know it's like teaching someone driving after the accident has happened.
(42:24) So we want to make these kids right uh fit for future and so we started this whole new tree partala program where we created these age appropriate modules and uh we engage these uh you know volunteers from uh genz our generation jabardust to come and uh teach these kids as nutri buddies >> and uh they teach them about nutrition in a gamified way.
(42:48) We have those cartoon characters and um we have recently also launched a newspaper called Nutri Bachala newspaper which basically also is taking some time off from the screen and teaching kids nutrition in a very gamified uh way >> for our audience. If you have to leave one last thing that you want to say to better their health in terms of food as medicine what will you say? I think my last thing that I like to leave our audience with with this uh at the cost of repeating myself in fact two things one is that we are not what we eat but
(43:23) we are what our food eats. So it's important for us to you know find the source of the food how it's grown and it's very important for us our health depends on what was done with the food throughout the cycle how was how was it transported how was it grown etc. So go deeper than the label.
(43:42) The second one is you know like and this is to the younger generation which thinks they are physically invincible. Yes, you are my friends but you know life will come calling at 40s. So prepare your gut for your 40s. You know have this main character energy at 40s and stay active till 60. That's going to be the real flex. So be respectful to your gut.
(44:03) That's what I like to say. >> I'm so happy for you to be in my podcast with you. I'm sure my audience will have a bigger idea about how food can be medicine. Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Dr. Paul.
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