Who Controls the Food on Our Plate? ft. Dr. Vandana Shiva
Author Name:Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@somethingbigger
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VugTN2sDMOU
Title: Who Controls the Food on Our Plate? ft. Dr. Vandana Shiva
Author Name: Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Description: What happens when corporations start controlling the seeds farmers grow?
In this episode of Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas, Dr. Vandana Shiva, Indian environmental activist and founder of Navdanya, talks about her 40-year fight to protect Indian farmers, native seeds, and our food system.
With a PhD in quantum theory, she chose a path beyond science and entered the fight to protect nature. Her work took her from studying the impact of the Green Revolution to challenging corporate control over agriculture.
She explains why Indian farmers are trapped in debt, how chemical-intensive farming affects agriculture, and why she challenged Monsanto over seed patents and corporate ownership of seeds.
Dr. Shiva also shares how she founded Navdanya to conserve native seeds and promote biodiversity, why seeds should remain part of our shared heritage, and what the food on our plates tells us about the people who grow it.
But this conversation is about more than farming. It explores greed, courage, nature, and the choice to live for something bigger than money and power.
In this conversation, we discuss:
Dr. Vandana Shiva’s journey from quantum physics to environmental activism
The Green Revolution and its impact on Indian agriculture
Why Indian farmers are trapped in debt
Monsanto, seed patents, and the fight over seed ownership
Navdanya and the movement to save India's native seeds
How corporate agriculture affects farmers and the food system
Why seeds are our shared heritage, not just a business asset
What farmers deserve for the food they grow
How to stand up for what you believe in without fear
Why protecting nature is essential to our future
Timestamps
00:00 – How Dr. Vandana Shiva Changed Rodrigo’s Life
01:09 – What 40 Years of Activism Can Teach Us
01:50 – Why a Quantum Physicist Started Saving Seeds
04:19 – The Green Revolution and the Roots of Violence
06:30 – What the Chipko Movement Taught Her About Nature
09:19 – Why She Chose Service Over Money and Power
13:31 – How Greed Changed Our Relationship With Nature
17:05 – How Agriculture Became a Money-Making Machine
18:01 – Why Indian Farmers Are Trapped in Debt
19:38 – The Real Cost of the Food on Our Plates
20:06 – Why She Started Navdanya
20:26 – The Woman Who Bargained Over One Rupee
22:00 – What Seeds Represent: Past, Present and Future
23:20 – Why She Named Her Movement Navdanya
26:02 – The Fight Against Monsanto and Seed Patents
29:29 – Where Her Courage and Determination Come From
30:47 – The Woman Who Taught Her to Bounce Back
34:13 – Her Advice to Anyone Afraid to Make a Difference
36:45 – No Greed and No Fear in My Life
38:06 – What Nature Can Teach Us
39:45 – Dr. Vandana Shiva’s Final Message
If you want to understand the challenges facing Indian farmers, the debate around Monsanto and seed patents, and who controls the seeds behind our food, watch the full conversation.
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Transcript:
(00:00) Oh my god. We are at the Dr. Vandana Shiva's farm. Um she came to my life 15 years ago. In a moment there was a big inner awakening, but also outer awakening [music] for me. And I was asking deeper questions in my life. What is the meaning of life? What do I want, you know? And suddenly I look at this lady with so much passion to a cause.
(00:31) And with so much courage to pursue. And that inspired me to you know, to to to follow my heart. To do something with purpose. So she has been a very important person in my life. >> [music] >> So it's very important day for me to be here talking with her about her life, about her journey, and about also what can we learn from her.
(00:57) Can't wait. >> Vandana Shiva is one of the most prominent activists in the world. >> The world-renowned environmental leader and ecologist. >> Dr. Vandana Shiva >> Vandana Shiva >> Dr. Vandana Shiva >> This episode is for the crazy ones, the ones that have a desire to change the world.
(01:18) They want to do something meaningful. So we're going to go through her journey. We're going to learn how she did 40 years of activism, and you're going to hear her advice on how can we do it in our own lives. So stay tuned. It's going to be a great conversation. I'm just going to pick her up. >> [music] >> Enter [music] here. Mhm. What do you feel most proud about this journey? >> I think I feel most proud about uh giving significance to the little
(02:02) seed. You know, I did my PhD in quantum theory. And uh the person I wanted to do my PhD with, I eventually did it with his student, Jeffrey Poop. But, David Bohm always talked about the implicit order and the explicit order. The implicit order is what is lies within. Explicit order is what is expressed outside.
(02:30) And he talked about the implicit order in in the quantum world. >> Mhm. >> And I have seen the implicit order of the earth and the living world in the seed. That in in a little seed of wheat is our daily bread. In a little seed of paddy, we save 750 kinds of rice varieties on this farm. And those 750 varieties, each uh variety is different. It has a different taste.
(03:06) It has different flavor. It cooks differently. And of course, the most famous is the Indian basmati, which comes from this valley. The Doon Valley basmati. Which we have saved and distributed to farmers. 5,000 farmers of this valley conserve the basmati seed and grow it organically. Because for us, it isn't just that we save seeds.
(03:33) We also work with farmers >> Mhm. >> to respect the earth and regenerate the earth. And we teach them the the top scientific principles, but in a in a system which can relate to their practices. Not as an alien uh system. >> These are all the varieties of seeds here in this farm. Look at here. 750 different varieties. So beautiful.
(04:10) So incredible. >> Watch out for snakes. >> Yeah? Well, he will twist it. >> [laughter] >> You mentioned that you studied quantum physics, right? And quantum physics tells us that um everything is connected, right? >> Yes. >> And uh but then when you looked outside to our economic system, you saw something a bit different, right? When you saw that difference, what what did did you feel? >> You know, actually the first book I wrote was a book called The Violence of the Green Revolution, because I had done my MSc honors in physics
(04:51) in particle physics in the Punjab University. When Punjab was peaceful and prosperous, and then in '84, it was full of violence. So, I wanted to understand the roots of violence, because the United Nations University, which is based in Tokyo, wanted me to do a big study on conflicts over resources.
(05:14) I said, "Yes, I want to study conflicts over resources. I've looked at rivers. I've looked at forests. But something's happening with Punjab. Where the Green Revolution was introduced, will you let me study the roots of this violence?" >> Oh. >> So, I studied the roots of violence violence and wrote a book called The Violence of the Green Revolution.
(05:33) And of course, you know, I had never I had never studied agriculture. But I I had studied quantum theory. So, I used the quantum view to understand. I said, "If the same place in in '70s, when I was studying here, was peaceful, what made it a violent state? What are the roots of this violence? And so, I wrote that book, The Violence of the Green Revolution.
(05:57) It began my journey on agriculture. And that's when I understood how concentrated the power over agriculture had become. >> When I was uh researching for the conversation with you, I saw a very powerful photo that I stopped, I looked, and I want to share it with you, and I I would like you to to see what you think about this photo.
(06:25) >> [snorts] >> Chipko. Yeah. I call this my University of Ecology. I said, I went to the University of Western Ontario to study the foundations of quantum theory, but I went to the villages of the Himalaya to study ecology and biodiversity. >> How do you feel when you look at that photo? >> Um when I look at this photo, of course, I remember the '70s, when I was a volunteer working with this movement, and I look at these women, and I their love and compassion and oneness with that tree and the forest, and of course, I feel happy.
(07:09) I feel happy that if women, who've never been to school, have such a deep understanding of ecology, why can't the rest of society? >> Yeah, this photo is very very powerful. Like women together protecting with their body the trees. And her their eyes, the determination in their eyes, so it's very powerful. So, I can see, yeah, it was very very very powerful photo.
(07:42) >> You know, and it's around that same time when women were hugging the trees with love. >> Mhm. >> That's when the violence in Punjab was happening. >> Oh. >> And I was involved in this movement and I was involved I was, you know, trying to do a study on why is there violence in this place where which was such a peaceful place.
(08:05) And then I realized that something had gone wrong. Something had changed. That the women were related through love and compassion. And uh they were not separate from each other. They were not separate from the forest and the trees. Whereas the in Punjab, the green revolution had separated people from their culture.
(08:29) After all, Punjab is the land of Guru Nanak. An amazing, you know, person who founded the religion where they wear the turban. And uh And if you read his uh his writings, they're ecological writings. >> Mhm. >> You know? He He founded a religion based on ecology. >> And that's that's where it started, your journey? >> That's what started my my my journey of oneness, solidarity, companionship started with Chipko.
(09:11) My journey of not falling into the trap of violence started with Punjab. >> So so beautiful. >> I have not given up anything to live the life I have lived. I have not sought money. I have not sought power. So many political parties have wanted me to be be part of them. I said, "No. This is not a a system I I to be part of.
(09:37) I just want to serve the earth. And people people who've been dispossessed, I want to serve them. That's it. With what capacity I have. I I don't want to perform miracles. I just want to do what I can with what resources I have. And I learned [clears throat] from my parents, I'm very grateful to them. Uh I started this farm because of my mother.
(10:05) But uh you know, our parents were very live very simply. And when I you know, would go tell tell our mother, "But you you're wearing the same sari again." And she said, "Well, if I spend money on saris, where would I educate you?" You know? She said, "Either I can think of you and think of And our house was like uh place where anyone could come and stay.
(10:33) >> [laughter] >> Every activist of India came and stayed in our house. In including all the activists of Chipko came and stayed in our home. >> Where was that? >> In Dehradun. >> In Dehradun. >> I'm born here. And I've returned here. I went to study in Canada. I went to Bangalore to work. But I've returned here because I was asked by the Ministry of Environment to study mining on these of these mountains.
(10:56) >> Mhm. >> So, I learned from my parents that simplicity can make you richer with the same resources. You don't have to have more. You can spend less and share with more people. >> Remove the
(11:44) So good. Standing there in the seed conservatory, I could see Dr. Vandana's decades of work in front of me. Her efforts, her energy, it was all so powerful, so inspiring. So beautiful.
(13:07) What is this? This is Oh, this is worthy years. >> Where did things go wrong? Things went wrong because a handful of powerful people >> Mhm. >> very very few people uh sadly beginning with Spain and Portugal. >> Really? >> Yeah, because the first colonization >> Yeah.
(13:50) >> The first colonization was to Latin America. >> Yeah. >> And uh they thought that owning more lands owning more wealth, owning more gold was a purpose of life. And for that, if you had to be violent to others that was all you you call that civilization. And that is what started. With it came a way of thinking I call it the violent epistemology.
(14:21) The violent way of thinking about nature, that nature is divided and separate. And that's what quantum theory overcame. And with it came the idea of economy economy the art of living. Art of living was reduced to art of money making, art of looting. And uh so uh epistemology of separation and an economy of greed and theft took over.
(14:49) And that is everything we live through today. All that we see as a perversion >> Mhm. >> from the human perspective uh is seen as progress. In in the perspective in the colonial perspective. >> Look who planted it. >> Yeah. So I I came to you to to know you um 17 years ago and um you had an impact in my life in terms of one about having a cause and dedicating your life to that cause and your determination.
(15:30) So, you had an impact in my life. And you helped me to understand how the system works, how the economical system works. And something that broke my heart, to be honest, was at the time what happened in in in Mexico with the corn, with the seeds, and what was happening in India with the cotton and the farmers. And today, even like when you finish this conversation, one farmer has committed Every 50 minutes, there's one farmer that dies in India of >> So, you know, we we also in in in India talk about farmers of as an data, those
(16:12) who give us food. >> Yeah. >> But when we see the farmers as give us the food, as partners with the earth in giving food. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> There's one kind of economic system. My my own mother, who was highly educated, and became a refugee during what was the partition. You know, when the British had to leave India, instead of just leaving, they divided India.
(16:39) And millions were killed. >> Mhm. >> And my mother was working at that time as inspectors of schools in what became Pakistan. And she had no idea that she was no more in her own home. >> Wow. >> You know? And was rescued. And people, you know, our generation was born eventually. But when I started my journey on agriculture in Punjab, I realized that agriculture had been turned into a money-making machine.
(17:19) First for the corporation that makes inputs that are not necessary. The earth doesn't need them. Small farmers don't need them. And I I have seen in Portugal old ladies always in black. You know, um still farming. You know? Age doesn't put a barrier to farming, to your relationship with the earth. And uh So, my mother had become a farmer and uh I sold the farm she used to have in order to start this farm.
(17:57) >> Okay. >> To save seeds. And uh So, why is a farmer committing suicide every 15 minutes? Because farmers have been trapped in the treadmill of debt. You know, you you have to buy urea. You don't let the earth regenerate. You have to buy pesticides because you're growing a monoculture which gets attacked by pests.
(18:23) >> Yeah. >> And uh you have to buy seeds. Seeds are not yours anymore. So, on everything you're spending lots of money. And at the end of it you're in debt that you cannot pay. And uh as a result of which you you know, you realize this this unpayable debt. At the end of it you feel there's only one end which is taking your life.
(18:51) And I have written many reports on the seeds of suicide. >> Yeah, more than uh 3 lakh farmers in the past 20 years have committed It's it's it's huge. >> It's huge. >> The how like because today people live let's say people live in cities and everything is so easy they go and buy and they even bargain for their their their their food and but how does that how can people understand exactly what is happening where they where they are today because people don't understand that the food comes but it comes through a lot of pain
(19:32) and a lot of suffering. What is something that you would say to people so to make them understand? >> I think for everyone to understand that food somewhere grows begins with seed >> Yeah. >> and grows with care. So respect the farmers who have grown your food. >> Mhm. >> First of all be aware of the fact that someone even if it's 1,000 miles away >> Yeah.
(19:59) >> a farmer is growing your food and enable them to live a good life. I started Navdanya the movement to save seeds but also to help farmers be free of chemicals that kill the earth and kill people >> Yeah. >> and get them into debt. And I I remember because in the early days I would stand at the stalls myself.
(20:25) You know? And I would stand in a diamond laden earrings woman with earrings of diamonds would come and bargain over one rupee for the wheat flour. I said madam you're wearing earrings probably worth lakhs and lakhs. >> Yeah. >> Why don't you want a fair share to go to the farmer? You know? This is not extra but in the market you can get cheaper.
(20:59) I said yeah in the market you can through exploitation you can get anything cheaper. But to be part of that theft is not especially something as basic as food is not the place where you have to be. You have the freedom to be a partner in non-violence. Non-violence to the earth and non-violence to the farmers. >> [laughter] >> It's so beautiful. That is so beautiful.
(21:26) I think for me there's something that I if I spend money, if I invest, it's in food. And I And I think like rather than invest in big phones or whatever, it's it's okay, but not in food because it's about respecting like people who bring that food to us every day. So, I think that's where I think I start and I think where people can start is what I love what you said, is about respecting the food and the farmer that was behind the every food that came.
(21:59) So, yeah. And actually we're talking about seeds. I mean this is I mean, when people, if you ask people what they see here, they see seeds. I think you see something else. What do you see when you look at these seeds? >> When I see it's seeds. Uh I I see the evolution at work. I see the future. I see the past. And I see a present.
(22:39) And I think what you're holding is is a dal called an orangey. >> It's so beautiful. >> You know, this is such a beautiful pulse. Um each You know, you can see there's a red and the green. >> It's beautiful. >> You you can plant the red and it'll still get a green. Yeah. [laughter] It won't just give you red seed.
(23:02) >> Mhm. >> And interestingly the name of this pulse is called Navrangi, the nine colors. >> Mhm. >> And let me just tell you a little you know this movement, this farm is called Navdanya, which means nine seeds. But how did I get it? I was doing the study on Punjab. >> Yeah. >> And in Punjab I was seeing the monocultures.
(23:34) >> Yeah. >> And then I started looking at seeds and I started to save seeds. And I went down to the south to an area where the green revolution had never entered. >> Mhm. >> And I went to collect seeds. And the first little farm I visited had the farmer was growing nine seeds. >> Mhm. >> So when when I counted, I said, "Wow, nine.
(23:56) " Instead of just one. Not just rice, rice, rice. >> Not just wheat, wheat, wheat. >> I said, "You're growing nine crops." And he turned around to me and said "Yes, Navdanya." And I said, "You say it with meaning." He he said "The connections of the cosmos, the nine planets and the nine plants in my field and the balance in our body is one continuum of harmony.
(24:26) And my duty in farming is to maintain that harmony." >> [laughter] >> And I said the moment I I I will not just call it saving seeds. I will call it Navdanya. >> That is so beautiful. I'm having goose bumps. >> Because in in it is spirituality. >> Yeah. >> In it is social responsibility. >> Mhm. >> And ecological responsibility.
(24:50) >> Mhm. >> But in it it is the promise of a good life for all. >> I think being here in in the in nature makes me feel more grounded. See, I'm I don't have shoes. I feel more grounded, more connected [music] with myself, and um I feel peaceful. Feel very very very very peaceful. What a life you've been having like 40 years dedicating your life to to the seeds, to the planet.
(25:32) I think what something that if you feel comfortable, I would love to if you can share a moment which was a a difficult moment for you personally in this journey, and how did you overcome? The reason why I'm asking you this because there's a lot of people that want to go in this journey, and they're going to go through tough moments, and it's okay.
(25:55) If you can share any moment that you had and how did you overcome that if you feel comfortable. >> I think the the toughest time I had was when I realized that company chemical companies like Monsanto wanting to patent seed. But then they decided that I was a in the target for them. And um and I remember a statement one of their public relations person said, "Either they will kill us or we must kill them first.
(26:33) " That's their thinking. That they must finish us off because they were feeling so threatened. They were doing so something so wrong. And I said, "But you are not you are you are not creation. >> Yeah. >> You cannot invent life. Life invents itself. >> [snorts] >> You know? You know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And our work is to take care of it, that's all.
(26:55) Our work is to take care of it. Not claiming invention. Seed is not an invention. >> Mhm. >> Seed is not Seed is not your intellectual property. It's a common, it belongs to all. And I will spend my life saving seeds and distributing seeds in whichever way I can. But it wasn't just the chemical companies. The sad thing is they managed They had a lot of money.
(27:30) >> Yeah. >> They managed to spend a lot of money. You know, I would get an award from social movements and ecology movements and they would give awards to scientists who they had paid to attack me. Yeah? So, um for someone like me who has lived my life with honesty, with com- commitment, with dedication to then suddenly have to face these assaults.
(28:00) You then realize that your life you know, it's code is being written by others with money. And of course you continue to do the right thing. You continue to do your honest work. >> Mhm. >> But now you constantly having to look at how it is being twisted. >> And how did you did you navigate that? It's not an easy one.
(28:26) >> No, it's it wasn't easy. And I I the way I navigated it is of course continue to do the work. >> Yeah. >> Continue to be inspired by the seed. Continue to be inspired by nature. Continue to be inspired by the women of Chipko and the small farmers. You know, I look for inspiration wherever I could find it. >> Who else was there in this journey with you that really supported you even especially in this in the most difficult moments? >> No, it it's been a a journey I've had to walk alone.
(29:05) >> Yeah? >> Yeah, yeah. My family, of course, my brother and sister. >> Uh and my son. Whose first pants I fought and fought and fought [laughter] and fought um >> You fought so much with so much determination and with so much grit. Where did this determination came from? >> I think the determination and grit comes from knowing we are not separate.
(29:36) And I I I will tell you a story. When I was asked by the Ministry of Environment to look at mining in these mountains, they were mining for limestone. >> Right. >> And one mine had been left out. It wasn't even in the map that was given to us to study. So the women of that village walked to to my place and said, "Why did you not ask them to stop this mine? So we are going to do a Chipko of the mine.
(30:04) Will you support us?" I said, "Of course." >> [laughter] >> So they literally did a Chipko of the mine. And uh quite clearly the miners were making lots of money out of mining. >> Yeah. >> And uh you know, the women had set up a tent which was stopping the bulldozers and crushers from going up the hill. And uh one day when they were sitting, they were attacked.
(30:30) So a young man on the village on a motorbike came, "The women have been attacked. Will you come to the village to visit them?" I said, "Of course I will come to the village." So I went and I thought I would visit them. You You they'd be hurt home, someone with a bandage in the head, someone in the plaster in the hand. And they were all still sitting in the tent.
(30:51) And the older older lady who had started the movement, Itwari Devi, when I saw them still sitting, I said, "What gives you the courage to continue in spite of this violence against you?" >> Exactly. >> And she said, "We are walk walking on grass, and every year we take fodder from these trees." >> What's that? >> Fodder is what the cows are fed.
(31:13) >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> So, from certain trees, >> Yeah. Yeah. >> and uh So, she said, "We take the fodder, but the leaves come back. We are walking on the grass, and the grass bounces back. But the same power, shakti we call it, the same shakti that is in the grass, in the leaves, in the trees, is the shakti in us.
(31:34) " >> [laughter] >> So, just like nature bounces back, we bounce back. You know, all we have to do is remember. We just have to remember we are part of nature. And so, I would say the same for myself. You know, if if my journey with Chipko started because of the love of the forest, love of the trees, and today at the function for the Mango Festival, some forest officer had come, much much much junior to my father, and uh and we talked a little bit, and I said, "My love for nature started with the love of the forest.
(32:13) " And it continued with Chipko. And uh And just that belonging, that feeling one. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's when you're not separate. >> Yeah. >> You're not like the iPhone that has to be charged all the time. >> [laughter] >> You know, being is a charging. >> Yeah. >> Just living the right way is the charging. >> When you remember those moments, how do you feel? >> Well, you know, I I I haven't been too well for the last few years.
(32:53) And I just feel, you know, I can think, I can write, I can talk. I want I I would love to be able to have a few year more years of giving. And uh you know, and walking. And uh And when when I go back to those experiences, how I feel is just give me a little more courage. >> [laughter] >> To continue. And give me the strength.
(33:29) >> I love your energy. I love your smile. It's so beautiful. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, it's it's it's the way you started the conversation. It's like about you were like It's like nature. You regenerate. >> Yeah. >> That's what you do. And I think what I feel it was your passion for the cause that kept you going, right? And you kept going and you kept fighting.
(33:52) So, maybe now we can uh talk to our audience that that they're there in their community and they have a passion They have a desire. They want to They want to affect some change. They want to do something with more meaning. But maybe they they have some fears. What would you say to them? >> I would say never be afraid.
(34:15) There's nothing to be afraid of. Nothing is bigger than you are. You know? Nothing is bigger than the seed. You know? So, don't be afraid. Realize your power. Realize your potential. And as I said, good Being a consumer makes you poorer. >> Which one? This is turmeric. I never saw >> [music]
(34:57) >> turmeric. Was there something in your life, a belief that maybe you had before and cross your life, that belief changed? >> No, I grew up in a family of of total freedom. My parents are very spiritual. And in this valley and next to us is Rishikesh in Haridwar are the place where all our spiritual masters have come.
(35:34) >> Yeah. >> And and our parents would take us to each of them. They were all living when we were little children. You know, so we've been to Anandamayi Ma, we've been to Swami Sivananda. We've visited all of them and been blessed by all of them. So, I did not I mean, I always had a passion for science. I had a passion for systematic knowledge.
(36:00) And uh and I don't think I've given that up. It's just that instead of quantum theory, I'm applying it to ecology. >> Yeah. >> I'm applying it to biodiversity. >> Have you ever thought of quitting? >> No, never. >> No? >> Never. Never. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, and And those difficult moments, what what did you How did you What did you work on yourselves to be able to to keep going? Because you did it alone.
(36:34) >> Well, uh you know, with with those vicious attacks uh what kept me going was not ha- hankering for no greed in my life. No greed and no fear in my life. Just This is the next step you must take in in in your path of life. So, find your duties. >> And what kept you grounded in this journey?
(37:18) >> I I think simple things like starting this farm, saving seeds. You know, where do people who've done a PhD in quantum theory think about farming? >> [laughter] >> It's not something you turn to. But, I I feel grateful that I learned how to shed false hierarchies very early in life. So, I did not carry the hierarchy of this is superior knowledge and this is less knowledge.
(37:52) You know? For me, the knowledge the women of Chipko gave me and the knowledge my professors taught me at the University of Western Ontario. You know, there was no hierarchical divide between it. >> I saw a message that you had that nature is our biggest teacher. Is it you have it you have it there. What do you think people are missing today that in nature can give them.
(38:23) >> I think you know, the cycle of colonialism, mechanistic science, commodity capitalism, >> Mhm. >> have all made us think nature is is dead. Nature is inert. I think, you know, I I've lived a long life. And I've lived through the stages where mechanistic science was on the rise. >> Mhm. >> Everyone assumed that that's the way science is.
(38:53) >> Mhm. >> I've also lived through the phase of the quantum world coming into being. I think we are at the moment we are just starting to understand how rich nature is, how intelligent nature is, and how self-organized nature is. And the more we understand that, the more we will all build our capacities to work with with each other and to work with less.
(39:26) >> Mhm. >> [music] >> But I'm just happy that I I saw you, I met you, and you keep [music] Even now you keep that energy and that uh yeah, that smile. [music] >> There's one final message that you would like to give to people. What would be that message? >> I think the most important thing I'd like to share with all the listeners is you know, we live on a beautiful earth and a creative earth.
(40:00) And we are part of it. And just that itself is a blessing and a joy. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. And do not be extractive. Do not be a predator. Learn your Learn your capacity to give and share as much as you can. >> You are so beautiful. >> [clears throat] >> You are You are You have a very special human being, you know.
(40:33) I really inspire so I want to I mean we are coming to the end of it but I want to thank you for inspiring me. And not just in terms of your determination, but also about having a meaningful life. Have something that you believe and go after it with everything that you that you believe. So, thank you so much. And also thank you for receiving us here in your beautiful farm.
Author Name:Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@somethingbigger
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VugTN2sDMOU
Title: Who Controls the Food on Our Plate? ft. Dr. Vandana Shiva
Author Name: Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas
Description: What happens when corporations start controlling the seeds farmers grow?
In this episode of Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas, Dr. Vandana Shiva, Indian environmental activist and founder of Navdanya, talks about her 40-year fight to protect Indian farmers, native seeds, and our food system.
With a PhD in quantum theory, she chose a path beyond science and entered the fight to protect nature. Her work took her from studying the impact of the Green Revolution to challenging corporate control over agriculture.
She explains why Indian farmers are trapped in debt, how chemical-intensive farming affects agriculture, and why she challenged Monsanto over seed patents and corporate ownership of seeds.
Dr. Shiva also shares how she founded Navdanya to conserve native seeds and promote biodiversity, why seeds should remain part of our shared heritage, and what the food on our plates tells us about the people who grow it.
But this conversation is about more than farming. It explores greed, courage, nature, and the choice to live for something bigger than money and power.
In this conversation, we discuss:
Dr. Vandana Shiva’s journey from quantum physics to environmental activism
The Green Revolution and its impact on Indian agriculture
Why Indian farmers are trapped in debt
Monsanto, seed patents, and the fight over seed ownership
Navdanya and the movement to save India's native seeds
How corporate agriculture affects farmers and the food system
Why seeds are our shared heritage, not just a business asset
What farmers deserve for the food they grow
How to stand up for what you believe in without fear
Why protecting nature is essential to our future
Timestamps
00:00 – How Dr. Vandana Shiva Changed Rodrigo’s Life
01:09 – What 40 Years of Activism Can Teach Us
01:50 – Why a Quantum Physicist Started Saving Seeds
04:19 – The Green Revolution and the Roots of Violence
06:30 – What the Chipko Movement Taught Her About Nature
09:19 – Why She Chose Service Over Money and Power
13:31 – How Greed Changed Our Relationship With Nature
17:05 – How Agriculture Became a Money-Making Machine
18:01 – Why Indian Farmers Are Trapped in Debt
19:38 – The Real Cost of the Food on Our Plates
20:06 – Why She Started Navdanya
20:26 – The Woman Who Bargained Over One Rupee
22:00 – What Seeds Represent: Past, Present and Future
23:20 – Why She Named Her Movement Navdanya
26:02 – The Fight Against Monsanto and Seed Patents
29:29 – Where Her Courage and Determination Come From
30:47 – The Woman Who Taught Her to Bounce Back
34:13 – Her Advice to Anyone Afraid to Make a Difference
36:45 – No Greed and No Fear in My Life
38:06 – What Nature Can Teach Us
39:45 – Dr. Vandana Shiva’s Final Message
If you want to understand the challenges facing Indian farmers, the debate around Monsanto and seed patents, and who controls the seeds behind our food, watch the full conversation.
Subscribe to Something Bigger Show by Rodrigo Canelas for meaningful conversations on India, spirituality, purpose, and the questions that shape how we live.
#VandanaShiva #IndianFarmers #Monsanto #Navdanya #IndianAgriculture #SeedSovereignty #FoodSecurity #SomethingBiggerShow
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Transcript:
(00:00) Oh my god. We are at the Dr. Vandana Shiva's farm. Um she came to my life 15 years ago. In a moment there was a big inner awakening, but also outer awakening [music] for me. And I was asking deeper questions in my life. What is the meaning of life? What do I want, you know? And suddenly I look at this lady with so much passion to a cause.
(00:31) And with so much courage to pursue. And that inspired me to you know, to to to follow my heart. To do something with purpose. So she has been a very important person in my life. >> [music] >> So it's very important day for me to be here talking with her about her life, about her journey, and about also what can we learn from her.
(00:57) Can't wait. >> Vandana Shiva is one of the most prominent activists in the world. >> The world-renowned environmental leader and ecologist. >> Dr. Vandana Shiva >> Vandana Shiva >> Dr. Vandana Shiva >> This episode is for the crazy ones, the ones that have a desire to change the world.
(01:18) They want to do something meaningful. So we're going to go through her journey. We're going to learn how she did 40 years of activism, and you're going to hear her advice on how can we do it in our own lives. So stay tuned. It's going to be a great conversation. I'm just going to pick her up. >> [music] >> Enter [music] here. Mhm. What do you feel most proud about this journey? >> I think I feel most proud about uh giving significance to the little
(02:02) seed. You know, I did my PhD in quantum theory. And uh the person I wanted to do my PhD with, I eventually did it with his student, Jeffrey Poop. But, David Bohm always talked about the implicit order and the explicit order. The implicit order is what is lies within. Explicit order is what is expressed outside.
(02:30) And he talked about the implicit order in in the quantum world. >> Mhm. >> And I have seen the implicit order of the earth and the living world in the seed. That in in a little seed of wheat is our daily bread. In a little seed of paddy, we save 750 kinds of rice varieties on this farm. And those 750 varieties, each uh variety is different. It has a different taste.
(03:06) It has different flavor. It cooks differently. And of course, the most famous is the Indian basmati, which comes from this valley. The Doon Valley basmati. Which we have saved and distributed to farmers. 5,000 farmers of this valley conserve the basmati seed and grow it organically. Because for us, it isn't just that we save seeds.
(03:33) We also work with farmers >> Mhm. >> to respect the earth and regenerate the earth. And we teach them the the top scientific principles, but in a in a system which can relate to their practices. Not as an alien uh system. >> These are all the varieties of seeds here in this farm. Look at here. 750 different varieties. So beautiful.
(04:10) So incredible. >> Watch out for snakes. >> Yeah? Well, he will twist it. >> [laughter] >> You mentioned that you studied quantum physics, right? And quantum physics tells us that um everything is connected, right? >> Yes. >> And uh but then when you looked outside to our economic system, you saw something a bit different, right? When you saw that difference, what what did did you feel? >> You know, actually the first book I wrote was a book called The Violence of the Green Revolution, because I had done my MSc honors in physics
(04:51) in particle physics in the Punjab University. When Punjab was peaceful and prosperous, and then in '84, it was full of violence. So, I wanted to understand the roots of violence, because the United Nations University, which is based in Tokyo, wanted me to do a big study on conflicts over resources.
(05:14) I said, "Yes, I want to study conflicts over resources. I've looked at rivers. I've looked at forests. But something's happening with Punjab. Where the Green Revolution was introduced, will you let me study the roots of this violence?" >> Oh. >> So, I studied the roots of violence violence and wrote a book called The Violence of the Green Revolution.
(05:33) And of course, you know, I had never I had never studied agriculture. But I I had studied quantum theory. So, I used the quantum view to understand. I said, "If the same place in in '70s, when I was studying here, was peaceful, what made it a violent state? What are the roots of this violence? And so, I wrote that book, The Violence of the Green Revolution.
(05:57) It began my journey on agriculture. And that's when I understood how concentrated the power over agriculture had become. >> When I was uh researching for the conversation with you, I saw a very powerful photo that I stopped, I looked, and I want to share it with you, and I I would like you to to see what you think about this photo.
(06:25) >> [snorts] >> Chipko. Yeah. I call this my University of Ecology. I said, I went to the University of Western Ontario to study the foundations of quantum theory, but I went to the villages of the Himalaya to study ecology and biodiversity. >> How do you feel when you look at that photo? >> Um when I look at this photo, of course, I remember the '70s, when I was a volunteer working with this movement, and I look at these women, and I their love and compassion and oneness with that tree and the forest, and of course, I feel happy.
(07:09) I feel happy that if women, who've never been to school, have such a deep understanding of ecology, why can't the rest of society? >> Yeah, this photo is very very powerful. Like women together protecting with their body the trees. And her their eyes, the determination in their eyes, so it's very powerful. So, I can see, yeah, it was very very very powerful photo.
(07:42) >> You know, and it's around that same time when women were hugging the trees with love. >> Mhm. >> That's when the violence in Punjab was happening. >> Oh. >> And I was involved in this movement and I was involved I was, you know, trying to do a study on why is there violence in this place where which was such a peaceful place.
(08:05) And then I realized that something had gone wrong. Something had changed. That the women were related through love and compassion. And uh they were not separate from each other. They were not separate from the forest and the trees. Whereas the in Punjab, the green revolution had separated people from their culture.
(08:29) After all, Punjab is the land of Guru Nanak. An amazing, you know, person who founded the religion where they wear the turban. And uh And if you read his uh his writings, they're ecological writings. >> Mhm. >> You know? He He founded a religion based on ecology. >> And that's that's where it started, your journey? >> That's what started my my my journey of oneness, solidarity, companionship started with Chipko.
(09:11) My journey of not falling into the trap of violence started with Punjab. >> So so beautiful. >> I have not given up anything to live the life I have lived. I have not sought money. I have not sought power. So many political parties have wanted me to be be part of them. I said, "No. This is not a a system I I to be part of.
(09:37) I just want to serve the earth. And people people who've been dispossessed, I want to serve them. That's it. With what capacity I have. I I don't want to perform miracles. I just want to do what I can with what resources I have. And I learned [clears throat] from my parents, I'm very grateful to them. Uh I started this farm because of my mother.
(10:05) But uh you know, our parents were very live very simply. And when I you know, would go tell tell our mother, "But you you're wearing the same sari again." And she said, "Well, if I spend money on saris, where would I educate you?" You know? She said, "Either I can think of you and think of And our house was like uh place where anyone could come and stay.
(10:33) >> [laughter] >> Every activist of India came and stayed in our house. In including all the activists of Chipko came and stayed in our home. >> Where was that? >> In Dehradun. >> In Dehradun. >> I'm born here. And I've returned here. I went to study in Canada. I went to Bangalore to work. But I've returned here because I was asked by the Ministry of Environment to study mining on these of these mountains.
(10:56) >> Mhm. >> So, I learned from my parents that simplicity can make you richer with the same resources. You don't have to have more. You can spend less and share with more people. >> Remove the
(11:44) So good. Standing there in the seed conservatory, I could see Dr. Vandana's decades of work in front of me. Her efforts, her energy, it was all so powerful, so inspiring. So beautiful.
(13:07) What is this? This is Oh, this is worthy years. >> Where did things go wrong? Things went wrong because a handful of powerful people >> Mhm. >> very very few people uh sadly beginning with Spain and Portugal. >> Really? >> Yeah, because the first colonization >> Yeah.
(13:50) >> The first colonization was to Latin America. >> Yeah. >> And uh they thought that owning more lands owning more wealth, owning more gold was a purpose of life. And for that, if you had to be violent to others that was all you you call that civilization. And that is what started. With it came a way of thinking I call it the violent epistemology.
(14:21) The violent way of thinking about nature, that nature is divided and separate. And that's what quantum theory overcame. And with it came the idea of economy economy the art of living. Art of living was reduced to art of money making, art of looting. And uh so uh epistemology of separation and an economy of greed and theft took over.
(14:49) And that is everything we live through today. All that we see as a perversion >> Mhm. >> from the human perspective uh is seen as progress. In in the perspective in the colonial perspective. >> Look who planted it. >> Yeah. So I I came to you to to know you um 17 years ago and um you had an impact in my life in terms of one about having a cause and dedicating your life to that cause and your determination.
(15:30) So, you had an impact in my life. And you helped me to understand how the system works, how the economical system works. And something that broke my heart, to be honest, was at the time what happened in in in Mexico with the corn, with the seeds, and what was happening in India with the cotton and the farmers. And today, even like when you finish this conversation, one farmer has committed Every 50 minutes, there's one farmer that dies in India of >> So, you know, we we also in in in India talk about farmers of as an data, those
(16:12) who give us food. >> Yeah. >> But when we see the farmers as give us the food, as partners with the earth in giving food. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> There's one kind of economic system. My my own mother, who was highly educated, and became a refugee during what was the partition. You know, when the British had to leave India, instead of just leaving, they divided India.
(16:39) And millions were killed. >> Mhm. >> And my mother was working at that time as inspectors of schools in what became Pakistan. And she had no idea that she was no more in her own home. >> Wow. >> You know? And was rescued. And people, you know, our generation was born eventually. But when I started my journey on agriculture in Punjab, I realized that agriculture had been turned into a money-making machine.
(17:19) First for the corporation that makes inputs that are not necessary. The earth doesn't need them. Small farmers don't need them. And I I have seen in Portugal old ladies always in black. You know, um still farming. You know? Age doesn't put a barrier to farming, to your relationship with the earth. And uh So, my mother had become a farmer and uh I sold the farm she used to have in order to start this farm.
(17:57) >> Okay. >> To save seeds. And uh So, why is a farmer committing suicide every 15 minutes? Because farmers have been trapped in the treadmill of debt. You know, you you have to buy urea. You don't let the earth regenerate. You have to buy pesticides because you're growing a monoculture which gets attacked by pests.
(18:23) >> Yeah. >> And uh you have to buy seeds. Seeds are not yours anymore. So, on everything you're spending lots of money. And at the end of it you're in debt that you cannot pay. And uh as a result of which you you know, you realize this this unpayable debt. At the end of it you feel there's only one end which is taking your life.
(18:51) And I have written many reports on the seeds of suicide. >> Yeah, more than uh 3 lakh farmers in the past 20 years have committed It's it's it's huge. >> It's huge. >> The how like because today people live let's say people live in cities and everything is so easy they go and buy and they even bargain for their their their their food and but how does that how can people understand exactly what is happening where they where they are today because people don't understand that the food comes but it comes through a lot of pain
(19:32) and a lot of suffering. What is something that you would say to people so to make them understand? >> I think for everyone to understand that food somewhere grows begins with seed >> Yeah. >> and grows with care. So respect the farmers who have grown your food. >> Mhm. >> First of all be aware of the fact that someone even if it's 1,000 miles away >> Yeah.
(19:59) >> a farmer is growing your food and enable them to live a good life. I started Navdanya the movement to save seeds but also to help farmers be free of chemicals that kill the earth and kill people >> Yeah. >> and get them into debt. And I I remember because in the early days I would stand at the stalls myself.
(20:25) You know? And I would stand in a diamond laden earrings woman with earrings of diamonds would come and bargain over one rupee for the wheat flour. I said madam you're wearing earrings probably worth lakhs and lakhs. >> Yeah. >> Why don't you want a fair share to go to the farmer? You know? This is not extra but in the market you can get cheaper.
(20:59) I said yeah in the market you can through exploitation you can get anything cheaper. But to be part of that theft is not especially something as basic as food is not the place where you have to be. You have the freedom to be a partner in non-violence. Non-violence to the earth and non-violence to the farmers. >> [laughter] >> It's so beautiful. That is so beautiful.
(21:26) I think for me there's something that I if I spend money, if I invest, it's in food. And I And I think like rather than invest in big phones or whatever, it's it's okay, but not in food because it's about respecting like people who bring that food to us every day. So, I think that's where I think I start and I think where people can start is what I love what you said, is about respecting the food and the farmer that was behind the every food that came.
(21:59) So, yeah. And actually we're talking about seeds. I mean this is I mean, when people, if you ask people what they see here, they see seeds. I think you see something else. What do you see when you look at these seeds? >> When I see it's seeds. Uh I I see the evolution at work. I see the future. I see the past. And I see a present.
(22:39) And I think what you're holding is is a dal called an orangey. >> It's so beautiful. >> You know, this is such a beautiful pulse. Um each You know, you can see there's a red and the green. >> It's beautiful. >> You you can plant the red and it'll still get a green. Yeah. [laughter] It won't just give you red seed.
(23:02) >> Mhm. >> And interestingly the name of this pulse is called Navrangi, the nine colors. >> Mhm. >> And let me just tell you a little you know this movement, this farm is called Navdanya, which means nine seeds. But how did I get it? I was doing the study on Punjab. >> Yeah. >> And in Punjab I was seeing the monocultures.
(23:34) >> Yeah. >> And then I started looking at seeds and I started to save seeds. And I went down to the south to an area where the green revolution had never entered. >> Mhm. >> And I went to collect seeds. And the first little farm I visited had the farmer was growing nine seeds. >> Mhm. >> So when when I counted, I said, "Wow, nine.
(23:56) " Instead of just one. Not just rice, rice, rice. >> Not just wheat, wheat, wheat. >> I said, "You're growing nine crops." And he turned around to me and said "Yes, Navdanya." And I said, "You say it with meaning." He he said "The connections of the cosmos, the nine planets and the nine plants in my field and the balance in our body is one continuum of harmony.
(24:26) And my duty in farming is to maintain that harmony." >> [laughter] >> And I said the moment I I I will not just call it saving seeds. I will call it Navdanya. >> That is so beautiful. I'm having goose bumps. >> Because in in it is spirituality. >> Yeah. >> In it is social responsibility. >> Mhm. >> And ecological responsibility.
(24:50) >> Mhm. >> But in it it is the promise of a good life for all. >> I think being here in in the in nature makes me feel more grounded. See, I'm I don't have shoes. I feel more grounded, more connected [music] with myself, and um I feel peaceful. Feel very very very very peaceful. What a life you've been having like 40 years dedicating your life to to the seeds, to the planet.
(25:32) I think what something that if you feel comfortable, I would love to if you can share a moment which was a a difficult moment for you personally in this journey, and how did you overcome? The reason why I'm asking you this because there's a lot of people that want to go in this journey, and they're going to go through tough moments, and it's okay.
(25:55) If you can share any moment that you had and how did you overcome that if you feel comfortable. >> I think the the toughest time I had was when I realized that company chemical companies like Monsanto wanting to patent seed. But then they decided that I was a in the target for them. And um and I remember a statement one of their public relations person said, "Either they will kill us or we must kill them first.
(26:33) " That's their thinking. That they must finish us off because they were feeling so threatened. They were doing so something so wrong. And I said, "But you are not you are you are not creation. >> Yeah. >> You cannot invent life. Life invents itself. >> [snorts] >> You know? You know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And our work is to take care of it, that's all.
(26:55) Our work is to take care of it. Not claiming invention. Seed is not an invention. >> Mhm. >> Seed is not Seed is not your intellectual property. It's a common, it belongs to all. And I will spend my life saving seeds and distributing seeds in whichever way I can. But it wasn't just the chemical companies. The sad thing is they managed They had a lot of money.
(27:30) >> Yeah. >> They managed to spend a lot of money. You know, I would get an award from social movements and ecology movements and they would give awards to scientists who they had paid to attack me. Yeah? So, um for someone like me who has lived my life with honesty, with com- commitment, with dedication to then suddenly have to face these assaults.
(28:00) You then realize that your life you know, it's code is being written by others with money. And of course you continue to do the right thing. You continue to do your honest work. >> Mhm. >> But now you constantly having to look at how it is being twisted. >> And how did you did you navigate that? It's not an easy one.
(28:26) >> No, it's it wasn't easy. And I I the way I navigated it is of course continue to do the work. >> Yeah. >> Continue to be inspired by the seed. Continue to be inspired by nature. Continue to be inspired by the women of Chipko and the small farmers. You know, I look for inspiration wherever I could find it. >> Who else was there in this journey with you that really supported you even especially in this in the most difficult moments? >> No, it it's been a a journey I've had to walk alone.
(29:05) >> Yeah? >> Yeah, yeah. My family, of course, my brother and sister. >> Uh and my son. Whose first pants I fought and fought and fought [laughter] and fought um >> You fought so much with so much determination and with so much grit. Where did this determination came from? >> I think the determination and grit comes from knowing we are not separate.
(29:36) And I I I will tell you a story. When I was asked by the Ministry of Environment to look at mining in these mountains, they were mining for limestone. >> Right. >> And one mine had been left out. It wasn't even in the map that was given to us to study. So the women of that village walked to to my place and said, "Why did you not ask them to stop this mine? So we are going to do a Chipko of the mine.
(30:04) Will you support us?" I said, "Of course." >> [laughter] >> So they literally did a Chipko of the mine. And uh quite clearly the miners were making lots of money out of mining. >> Yeah. >> And uh you know, the women had set up a tent which was stopping the bulldozers and crushers from going up the hill. And uh one day when they were sitting, they were attacked.
(30:30) So a young man on the village on a motorbike came, "The women have been attacked. Will you come to the village to visit them?" I said, "Of course I will come to the village." So I went and I thought I would visit them. You You they'd be hurt home, someone with a bandage in the head, someone in the plaster in the hand. And they were all still sitting in the tent.
(30:51) And the older older lady who had started the movement, Itwari Devi, when I saw them still sitting, I said, "What gives you the courage to continue in spite of this violence against you?" >> Exactly. >> And she said, "We are walk walking on grass, and every year we take fodder from these trees." >> What's that? >> Fodder is what the cows are fed.
(31:13) >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> So, from certain trees, >> Yeah. Yeah. >> and uh So, she said, "We take the fodder, but the leaves come back. We are walking on the grass, and the grass bounces back. But the same power, shakti we call it, the same shakti that is in the grass, in the leaves, in the trees, is the shakti in us.
(31:34) " >> [laughter] >> So, just like nature bounces back, we bounce back. You know, all we have to do is remember. We just have to remember we are part of nature. And so, I would say the same for myself. You know, if if my journey with Chipko started because of the love of the forest, love of the trees, and today at the function for the Mango Festival, some forest officer had come, much much much junior to my father, and uh and we talked a little bit, and I said, "My love for nature started with the love of the forest.
(32:13) " And it continued with Chipko. And uh And just that belonging, that feeling one. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's when you're not separate. >> Yeah. >> You're not like the iPhone that has to be charged all the time. >> [laughter] >> You know, being is a charging. >> Yeah. >> Just living the right way is the charging. >> When you remember those moments, how do you feel? >> Well, you know, I I I haven't been too well for the last few years.
(32:53) And I just feel, you know, I can think, I can write, I can talk. I want I I would love to be able to have a few year more years of giving. And uh you know, and walking. And uh And when when I go back to those experiences, how I feel is just give me a little more courage. >> [laughter] >> To continue. And give me the strength.
(33:29) >> I love your energy. I love your smile. It's so beautiful. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, it's it's it's the way you started the conversation. It's like about you were like It's like nature. You regenerate. >> Yeah. >> That's what you do. And I think what I feel it was your passion for the cause that kept you going, right? And you kept going and you kept fighting.
(33:52) So, maybe now we can uh talk to our audience that that they're there in their community and they have a passion They have a desire. They want to They want to affect some change. They want to do something with more meaning. But maybe they they have some fears. What would you say to them? >> I would say never be afraid.
(34:15) There's nothing to be afraid of. Nothing is bigger than you are. You know? Nothing is bigger than the seed. You know? So, don't be afraid. Realize your power. Realize your potential. And as I said, good Being a consumer makes you poorer. >> Which one? This is turmeric. I never saw >> [music]
(34:57) >> turmeric. Was there something in your life, a belief that maybe you had before and cross your life, that belief changed? >> No, I grew up in a family of of total freedom. My parents are very spiritual. And in this valley and next to us is Rishikesh in Haridwar are the place where all our spiritual masters have come.
(35:34) >> Yeah. >> And and our parents would take us to each of them. They were all living when we were little children. You know, so we've been to Anandamayi Ma, we've been to Swami Sivananda. We've visited all of them and been blessed by all of them. So, I did not I mean, I always had a passion for science. I had a passion for systematic knowledge.
(36:00) And uh and I don't think I've given that up. It's just that instead of quantum theory, I'm applying it to ecology. >> Yeah. >> I'm applying it to biodiversity. >> Have you ever thought of quitting? >> No, never. >> No? >> Never. Never. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, and And those difficult moments, what what did you How did you What did you work on yourselves to be able to to keep going? Because you did it alone.
(36:34) >> Well, uh you know, with with those vicious attacks uh what kept me going was not ha- hankering for no greed in my life. No greed and no fear in my life. Just This is the next step you must take in in in your path of life. So, find your duties. >> And what kept you grounded in this journey?
(37:18) >> I I think simple things like starting this farm, saving seeds. You know, where do people who've done a PhD in quantum theory think about farming? >> [laughter] >> It's not something you turn to. But, I I feel grateful that I learned how to shed false hierarchies very early in life. So, I did not carry the hierarchy of this is superior knowledge and this is less knowledge.
(37:52) You know? For me, the knowledge the women of Chipko gave me and the knowledge my professors taught me at the University of Western Ontario. You know, there was no hierarchical divide between it. >> I saw a message that you had that nature is our biggest teacher. Is it you have it you have it there. What do you think people are missing today that in nature can give them.
(38:23) >> I think you know, the cycle of colonialism, mechanistic science, commodity capitalism, >> Mhm. >> have all made us think nature is is dead. Nature is inert. I think, you know, I I've lived a long life. And I've lived through the stages where mechanistic science was on the rise. >> Mhm. >> Everyone assumed that that's the way science is.
(38:53) >> Mhm. >> I've also lived through the phase of the quantum world coming into being. I think we are at the moment we are just starting to understand how rich nature is, how intelligent nature is, and how self-organized nature is. And the more we understand that, the more we will all build our capacities to work with with each other and to work with less.
(39:26) >> Mhm. >> [music] >> But I'm just happy that I I saw you, I met you, and you keep [music] Even now you keep that energy and that uh yeah, that smile. [music] >> There's one final message that you would like to give to people. What would be that message? >> I think the most important thing I'd like to share with all the listeners is you know, we live on a beautiful earth and a creative earth.
(40:00) And we are part of it. And just that itself is a blessing and a joy. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. And do not be extractive. Do not be a predator. Learn your Learn your capacity to give and share as much as you can. >> You are so beautiful. >> [clears throat] >> You are You are You have a very special human being, you know.
(40:33) I really inspire so I want to I mean we are coming to the end of it but I want to thank you for inspiring me. And not just in terms of your determination, but also about having a meaningful life. Have something that you believe and go after it with everything that you that you believe. So, thank you so much. And also thank you for receiving us here in your beautiful farm.
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