Psychiatrist Explains: Psychology Behind Cheating & Choosing Wrong Partner |Dr. K |FO541 Raj Shamani
Author Name:Raj Shamani
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@rajshamani
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8sS6Lk3cYo
Transcript:
(00:00) You know, one of the stupidest things right now is [music] that people date people they're attracted to. >> It's stupid. >> Dumbest thing on the planet. Let me ask you something. What are you attracted to eating? >> Something that looks fascinating. >> And is that always what you want to be eating? >> Of course not.
(00:12) >> We're just attracted. People have never asked [music] themselves. Why am I attracted to this? >> Dr. K, MD, MH, psychiatrist, and founder of Healthy Gamer. If you want to understand why we love the way we do, who we're drawn to, why people cheat or why falling in love feels harder than ever, this episode is for you.
(00:32) What we'll [music] discover, and there's a lot of research about this, right? So, if you had a parent who's abusive, the likelihood that [music] you will date someone who is abusive is way higher than one. >> 70% of divorces are filed first [music] by women. Why do you think? What's happening here? >> If you ask a woman, "What are you losing with a divorce?" [music] They say, "I'm losing a relationship.
(00:52) " If you ask a man, "What are you losing with a divorce?" They say, "I'm losing a life." Why do people So like you're at work [music] and you have this like positive interaction with someone at work. You go home and you have problems and then you go to work and it's a [music] break from these problems at your marriage.
(01:07) There's kind of this polarization of like Neutron [music] and Depositron and Electron happens all the time between work and home. But I think the other real reason that happens is because we as dudes suck at touching our wives. >> Why do you say so? Because we [music] don't spend time learning how to touch women or men in a way to make them feel good.
(01:25) Cuz touch [music] is way more than sex. >> Are women better at touching? >> Yeah, because they do it more. >> The culture of aggressive sex and touching has really really increased. Why is that? >> First thing that's happening is pornography addiction is on the rise. And one of the things about pornography is over time people will watch more hardcore pornography.
(01:45) And the thing about [music] violent pornography is that it activates you more which is sometimes what people kind of need. >> What is the scientific way of charisma? First thing about charisma is that discipline. Having a vision, the ability [music] to articulate. So you have to be good at talking. Another important aspect of charisma is the ability to handle [music] in times of crisis.
(02:04) Even things like emotional regulation, EQ. What's really interesting is that physical attraction [music] is on there, but it's pretty low on the list. It's outweighed by all of these other things. If you have found anything valuable from this channel, please subscribe. It's free.
(02:24) It takes less than a minute, but it means a lot to us. And to listen to the audio experience of this episode, please follow us on Spotify. When you're building your brain for high performance, you need tools that keep up with you. That's why I use the ASUS Expert Book Ultra. It comes with up to an Intel Core Ultra X9 series 3 processor that delivers up to 50 watt TDP performance.
(02:47) So, no matter how demanding the work gets, it never slows you down. It's also an AI PC with up to 180 total platform tops and built-in co-pilot plus AI delivering smooth, worry-free performance. And because it's CPU, high performance GPU and NPU work together, you get faster performance even on the go.
(03:10) So no matter how heavy the workload, the laptop keeps up with you at every step. The ASUS Expert Book series is available on Flipkart. Check the link in the description below. [music] Why do people cheat? Oh, so so many so many reasons. actually just a couple of important ones. >> So like you're at work >> and you have this like positive interaction with someone at work >> and you get rewarded.
(03:38) You guys are kind of like >> so you get these positive interactions and then you go home and you get nagging. You go home and you have problems and then you go to work and it's a break from these problems at your marriage, right? So like you guys are going through a rough patch and there's someone at work who's like, "Oh my god, that must be so hard.
(03:54) " And they're supportive, right? So there's kind of this polarization of like neutron and depositron and electron happens all the time between work and home. I think um I absolutely think you know the person who gets the worst version of me is my wife. I also get the worst uh I don't think I actually this is interesting.
(04:15) I don't get the worst version of her. [laughter] >> Wow. Um, but I wonder if that's because I'm just better at managing her [laughter] than some people in my family. Right. So, some people just really just they just don't get [laughter] along. Um, >> but if you're watching this, please tell us. >> I'm thinking about it.
(04:33) I was like, wait, I I don't think it's reciprocal. I I think she gets the worst version of me. Um, but I think we're sort of I hope we're okay with it, but she also gets the best version of me. So, I realized some time ago that this happens where, you know, I'm coming here to this podcast and I'm smiling. I'm like, "Oh, but but there's a part of my brain that's getting exhausted and when I go home, um, she's been just so supportive because when you do this stuff, I don't know what you're like, but I'm like wiped when I'm done with this." And, and
(05:00) so she'll get the most tired version of me. She'll get the neediest version of me and and things like that. And then noticing that, I think, is really important because then I want to give her the best. So, I we did this thing. I love it. I think it's a great idea. >> So, you know, Christmas Eve >> and you know there's like Mother's Day.
(05:18) >> Yeah. >> So, my daughters and I, we invented a holiday called Mother's Day Eve. >> Okay. >> Which is like the day before Mother's Day, the night before Mother's Day. We're going to stay up all night and we're going to celebrate Mother's Day. >> How sweet. >> Yeah. So, we did this thing where she was like taking So, we we planned the day and and then, you know, when she came home, she was like in the bath and stuff.
(05:40) Then we set everything out and then we celebrated. We had a party. That's also where I learned, you know, I used to think I don't like parties. I love parties. What I don't like is people. I don't like the people who come to parties. You know what's great is to have a party just with the people that you like, like three people, like wife and your two kids. It's awesome.
(05:56) It's so much fun. You order all of your favorite food. You don't have to worry about this uncle is coming and he's allergic to this. You just get all your favorite food. It's great. So, I try really hard and I think people should, too. like we take it we take our relationships for granted and I think it's okay to give your spouse the most unregulated version of yourself but we shouldn't just accept that right so I think it's okay that like when I'm my most authentic vulnerable angriest self like I can do that with that with
(06:24) my wife because she's a part of me we're partners but then we absolutely need to be intentional about making that up right so if I'm putting her through that she deserves the other end as well more than anyone else on the planet. So I think she I hope I try the hardest to make her happy because she's the one who like makes this possible like in a very practical way like she's like watching my children right now and I'm going to be exhausted.
(06:51) She's going to be stressed out because she's been watching my children all day >> or her children too. and and then you know she's the one who if I tell her like hey I'm tired like she's going to and so for that that effort on her part I want to make it like worthwhile >> you know there's a thing called mother's touch starvation >> uh I've not heard of that but I'm intrigued to say more >> I've heard of touch starvation >> yeah so it's about the mother gets so physically overwhelmed with the kids the full day with that touch and like the
(07:23) full day she's with and then there's so much load which is cognitive load and physical load and there's emotional labor around it that >> by the end of the evening she gets extremely tired >> now she hates when even the partner touches her >> but from the inside she's starved and she's craving for that >> yeah that physical intimacy >> but the moment partner touches it's just annoying >> so she doesn't want the partner to touch but somehow she wants it >> yeah it's it's a difficult phase a lot of mothers go through it.
(07:54) >> Yes. >> So why does that happen? Like why a woman who becomes a mother, it almost gets to a point where she gets irritated by the husband who's sleeping right next to her, but at the same time she wants the maximum support and intimacy at that time. >> Yeah. So I think there's a couple things there.
(08:18) First thing that we got to remember is that so my wife and I have talked about getting divorced like four times. M >> so like everyone thinks we have like like oh he's inventing holidays for me. Oh my god, you should be like him. [laughter] So like I you know we we have challenges >> and and you know it gets bad. Um and uh so I I and I think one of the hardest times is when you've got young children.
(08:42) >> Okay. >> So people just don't understand like everyone thinks like you know kids are great and like kids are great. Like I love my kids. Um, and I really think they're great, but also like the hardest time in my life has been when we have young kids. And and the reason for that to understand is just that you as a human are not appropriately resourced.
(09:04) Like sleep is important for your basic functioning. Like for 70 years of your life, you're going to be sleeping basically 8 hours a day. the three years that you have young kids at home, you're not gonna and the human beings just fall apart. So everything gets really really challenging.
(09:23) Everything gets really difficult. So one thing that happens is, you know, our brain regulates stimulus that requires energy. >> So um I'm just thinking about my own relationship. So like I burp and it really annoys my wife and and so you know but her tolerance of that is like depending on how much she slept and what else is going on.
(09:48) So the key thing is you know especially when you've got young kids at home there's just all kinds of stuff that is not functioning the way that it's supposed to function. People gain weight and people get moody and and thankfully I don't think we dealt with postpartum depression or anything like that but some sometimes that kind of stuff happens.
(10:03) And so it's just a really physiologically and psychologically trying time. There's also all kinds of stuff about, you know, are you being a good parent and then like something scary happens is like you dislike your kid, you get angry with your kid. Um, and then you feel like a bad parent, but it's like normally angry with your kids.
(10:20) Like it's like evolutionary, right? Um, and that's part of the reason that's part of how they learn how to behave. And you know, my my mom used to be like, I don't know if that makes sense. you know, she and and so sometimes my mom would be like, "You know, your kids, they'd be so much easier if you just smacked them once.
(10:37) All [laughter] it takes is once." And she's a really loving mother and she's like just a really saintly person as a pediatrician, as a doctor, and has taken care of kids all of her life. But she's like, "You just smack them once, they'll be so much better." We're like, "Mom, we don't do that anymore.
(10:53) " [snorts] Um, so I I think that there's all kinds of things that go on. So, you want a certain kind of touch and you're not being supported. And this is where this may be a little bit of a hot take, but I think the other real reason that happens is because we as dudes suck at touching our wives. Like, we suck at it. >> Why? Why do you say so? >> Because we don't spend time learning how to touch, and this is going to sound kind of weird, like touching women or men in a way to make them feel good.
(11:24) Because touch is way more than sex. We don't learn like like I I I went in for a hug and you gave me a handshake and then we did a hug, right? But like like we don't know like we don't learn and something weird happened where we as a society got really like homophobic at some point and then dudes stopped touching each other.
(11:42) Like there's no like male contact anymore. Like I remember when I went to India in 2003, there was a friend of mine at the ashram who was getting married and I saw something really weird. So two of his friends came up to him. He had his arm around two of his friends and both of his male friends were rubbing his belly like this and they were making jokes about how he's going to get fat because now he's going to get married and things like that and I was like what is this? [laughter] I think in India it's like a little bit better where like men used to touch each
(12:11) other. >> Yeah. >> But so we just don't know like you know we don't know how to give like a foot massage. we don't know how to give a a shoulder massage. Like what kind of touch like like and sometimes people are over stimulated and they just don't want to be touched. And then this is also where we also like suck at emotional support.
(12:30) >> You know we don't know how to do that. >> True. So, so many times like you know if your female partner is telling you it's so hard to be a parent, you try to fix it because like what we're socialized as men to do is like this person is problem man responsible man fix thing bad I help I make it go away stop feeling that way I feel uncomfortable with the way that you are feeling unhappy wife unhappy life unhappy I fix it we don't know how to Listen, we don't know how to like hold space. So, I think some of that
(13:05) like mothers touch starvation I think just is cuz we suck. Dude, >> are women better at touching? >> Yeah, I think on average probably because they do it more, right? But how do they know how to comfort a man by just being there? >> So, touching them in the right way versus a man just suck at it like >> Yeah.
(13:32) So, so we learn they learn different skills. So, they're good at emotionally supporting each other too. >> Um, and so we do there's one kind of emotional labor that men are socialized to be better at, which is something called emotional containment. >> So, if if someone is falling apart, you as a man can handle that. So, so even when you know men and women around me, men are better at this.
(13:58) So, if someone around you is falling apart, you can handle that more. Um, we're we're worse at like emotional support in ways that are not containment. And I don't know. I mean, I I think like when we think about, you know, so your dad and your mom gave you hair oil massages, right? Who gave you more hair oil massages, right? >> And then it's And when you were sick, like did they pat you to help you sleep? Who did that? >> Both of them, but mom more. Yeah.
(14:25) >> Right. So I think that like like moms do it more. So it's not like our fault. That's important to understand is like we suck at it, but it's not our fault that we suck because we're just never like who's who's going to teach you? >> Like are we going to we going to you going to we going to reposition the chairs and [laughter] >> right? We have like like just think about podcast culture.
(14:44) Like what are we doing? We have a thousand podcasts out there and everyone's like teaching all this about motivation and neuroscience and like you know ego and dark triad but we're like we're not teaching people how to touch. >> Yeah. True. So we >> I [clears throat] want to because you said dark and touch. I I have a question. Okay.
(15:05) Which is >> little deviating from here but I think it's an important one here. Right. It's the culture of aggressive sex and touching is has really really increased. >> Yeah. >> Why is that? Like why almost I was reading something that >> this is more in teenagers now and Gen Alpha and Gen Z >> that >> they almost think that women think that choking is almost normal.
(15:37) >> Yeah. and they would want to have that because that's how things are done. And men have the subtle pressure that they need to be more aggressive because they think that that's what women want. Probably both of them don't want but they both think that it's normal. >> Yeah.
(15:55) So I don't know how normal people think it is. So it's absolutely on the rise. >> It's on the rise. It's not like everybody, but it's >> so what I've heard a lot of is the amount of nonconsensual non-disgust >> um asphixxiation which is choking you know during sex is like skyrocketing. So people will be just engaged in in sexual activity and like someone will start choking and like they're like what is going on? >> Um and nobody will point it out or >> or they will.
(16:27) So so so there's I think there's a lot of different things. So one thing that I've learned as a doctor is that very few things have one cause. Everything is multiffactorial. Like at the beginning we were like you know why are some people this way right? It's a genetics it's upbringing. It's all got whatever. >> So I think first thing that's happening is we have to understand the evolution of pornography.
(16:45) So part of the reason that erectile dysfunction is on the rise is because pornography consumption is on the rise. Porn pornography addiction is on the rise. Um and part of the reason that pornog is and there are a couple of reasons for this. One is also that with things like Only Fans, you get activation of certain parts of your brain that did not used to get activated with pornography.
(17:10) So 50 years ago, you can look at like a Playboy magazine, but there's no relationship between you and what you see. Now, this person is interacting with you. >> So, we're starting to see parasocial relationships form, right? So now your brain, not only do you get a physical stimulus, but you get potentially an emotional stimulus.
(17:29) They express gratitude. You start to have regular contact. So you It's interesting you asked like how do affairs happen? There's a certain science behind this that we can get into later. But if you look at the science of how people fall in love and how people the science of how people fall in love explains how people have affairs.
(17:50) The science of how to fall how we fall in love also explains parasocial relationships. So people are getting more into pornography. And part of this is like the democratization and technology and all that good stuff too, right? Cuz now if you're you're a young woman, like a relatively I don't I wouldn't say it's easy, but a relatively easy way for you to make a decent amount of money is for you to do an only fans, right? So there's a reason why many women are doing it because the opportunity cost is pretty good compared to their other situation and there are
(18:25) other factors like jobs are not keeping up with inflation so you have to do something on the side and might as well do that kind of thing. Um so pornography is changing and then the other thing that happens. So now let's talk a little bit about one other factor which is that there's a dopamineergic tolerance that happens with pornography and this is not just pornography it's basically other things online where there's this thing called online drift.
(18:52) So if you look at your algorithm, if you watch one video about a topic that is polarizing, the algorithm will give you way more of that. >> Right? So there's kind of a a joke that sometimes people in in our community will say, which is like if you watch a single Jordan Peterson video, not saying he's good or bad or anything like that.
(19:12) Um I he has a fantastic course on personality, which helped me a lot when I was a resident. If you watch a single one, you're going to get a ton of it, right? So things get polarized, things get extreme. And one of the things about pornography is if you watch the same kind of pornography, your brain will acclimatize to it.
(19:33) So over time, people will watch more hardcore pornography. You need to be stimulated by it more. So what's what we're starting to see is that violent pornography is on the rise. And I suspect that there's a really good reason for the rise of erectile dysfunction, pornography addiction, because as we're starting to use pornography to regulate our emotions more, as we're starting to use it to activate our dopamine systems more, as our life falls apart in the real world, we need more of a hit.
(20:05) And the thing about violent pornography is that it activates you more, which is sometimes what people kind of need because if it's mild, it doesn't pull you out of your life the way you need it to cuz you've kind of built up some tolerance to it. So then as we watch that, right, then it starts trending. Then it becomes normal.
(20:26) Then then you see it more then then you think it's normal. M so I asked you a question a long time ago about you know something about you you mentioned something about people are more discontent why is that and I think the reason is because they're seeing so much success all around them so back in your case you had number one number two and number three but now if I if I go online I'm going to see Raj Shamani age 29 absolutely crushing it and then I'm going to see Dr.
(21:01) K who's crushing it less but still crushing it and I'm going to see this guy, right? I'm going to see that guy. I'm going to see all these people who are really successful. So, we're we're starting to get bombarded by really distorted versions of reality. And so, as you watch a lot of pornography, you think this is normal. Or the other thing that can happen is now your brain has started to form associations which is like a little bit about how like fed fetishes work and things like that.
(21:36) So once you you know this is a little bit vulgar but sometimes you know people will be attracted like teenagers will frequently be attracted to older women not like old older women but like and the reason for that is because when you hit puberty like your friend's mom is around right so then like when you're you have all these hormones flowing through you and things like that and you start to form associations which is why like mils are a thing right and so you form there and there's behavioral reinforcement there's like reinforcement for some of these
(22:02) things so like Now, this is what turns you on. And you're also seeing cuz you've never had sex before, all the women that you see having sex seem to be enjoying it. So then you try doing it the first time you have sex and the woman is really confused and it kind of turns you on or whatever. So, so there's all kinds of factors that are going into this.
(22:23) And then then the problem is on the on the woman's side, if this is what all the dudes are doing, if they're watching this kind of porn, then maybe I want to live up to that. And this is really common where, you know, there's fear of rejection, there's wanting to make your partner happy. There's also socialization to make your partner happy, right? I've had female patients who are and let me know if this is like okay or not okay but you know I I've had female patients who are 70 years old and um part of a psychiatric intake is to do a sexual
(22:55) history. It's like questions we should ask everybody like doesn't matter how old you are and people are stunned because they're like hi hi like you're talking to a seven-year-old woman about her sex life. Like, yeah, because 7-year-old women can't get pregnant and so if they have sex, they stop using condoms and then they can still get sexually transmitted infections.
(23:14) You know, there's like COVID outbreak. Like, you go to a nursing home in the United States, like you go to some of these retirement communities in places like Florida, you'll have like herpes outbreaks there. It's a real public health thing, right? And it's kind of weird. People don't think about it, but like they, you know, that's just part of being a doctor.
(23:31) And sometimes I'll have patients who have never had a 70-year-old woman who's like never had an orgasm. And and how do you get to that point? It's because when this person was growing up, and we'll talk about it, like I know it makes some people uncomfortable, but the whole point of a psychiatrist is you should be able to talk about whatever, right? Um and then as I try to understand that um you know because when they were growing up it wasn't like a like your sexual pleasure was not a part of marriage, right? Like it's just not you're
(24:01) supposed to keep your husband happy is like the the the world that she grew up in. So women are socialized to keep their man happy, right? we see this on Instagram and here's how you keep your man happy or whatever. >> Do you think more women want this aggression in men? >> And so, you know, you're asking a lot of like general questions about populations.
(24:30) >> Mhm. My overwhelming experience is that people are individuals. So, I I've I've had some patients who are totally fine with, you know, BDSM and things like that. Um, I've had some patients who, it's really interesting from a dating perspective. Like I had, um, one male patient who, >> you know, we were talking about his, he was in his late 20s and we were talking about his dating life and he was telling me like one day he came that's not so we were working on another issue, but he came in and he's like, "Look, this thing
(25:02) happened to me where I was on this date and you know, I was being intimate with a girl and she like slapped me and then I was like, I'm not into that." And she slapped me again. She was like trying to make me mad because she like wanted me to hit like she wanted me to lose control and that's what she wanted and it was like so I it's hard for me to say um population like in in population wise like it could maybe they want it more.
(25:28) I I don't know. It's not something that I've seen. But have you seen any difference between people who want this aggression versus people who don't want? Is there some pattern or some behavior about their childhood or the way they're living or their profession or something which is a pattern between people who like being aggressive versus people who don't [sighs] sort of so so I I think that this is where we have to get once again like a bit technical but I would say people being aggressive is not all one group of
(26:02) people. So there's different kinds of things right? So there's absolutely situations where there's this psychological principle called the repetition compulsion. >> What is it? >> Which is why people end up dating the same kind of person like over and over and over again. Right. So you'll hear some people say like there's no good men out there >> or like all women are >> Yeah.
(26:32) And what people don't realize is this is this is so interesting. I'm working on a lecture on this now. You know, one of the stupidest things right now is that people date people they're attracted to. It sounds weird, right? >> It's stupid. >> It's dumb. The dumbest thing on the planet. Let me ask you something.
(26:49) What are you attracted to eating, Raj? >> What What do you want to eat? >> Something that looks fascinating. >> Okay, great. And is that always what you want to be eating? Like I I'm attracted to a cookie, right? Should I eat a cookie? >> No. >> Okay. >> It's bad for me. >> Yeah. So, what you may be different cuz I know you're sad on the inside or whatever, but [laughter] but >> I haven't painted this.
(27:15) >> My bad. [snorts] Okay. But but so if you think about like you know you have all these things like so if I are you are you when you wake up in the morning what do you what are you attracted to like in terms of what do you want to do how do you want to spend your time >> the moment I get up >> I want to eat something really really junk and sugary >> great stuff like that and then what >> but I don't end up eating >> yeah yeah you don't you don't end up eating what do you what do you want to do next >> then I just want to sleep
(27:46) >> okay right So, so you're attracted to sleep and you're attracted to junk food. Should you >> engage in those things? >> No, of course not. >> Okay. But so your brain is like, I want junk food and I want sleep and I want to spend time on Instagram and I want to spend time on TikTok. But we don't do those things that bad for us.
(28:02) >> But when it comes to love in relationships, that's where our brain gets it right. >> It's crazy, right? We're just attracted >> and we're just going to listen to the brain because when it comes to love, that's when the instinct is 100% correct. And when it comes to like cell phone and dopamine and food, it's wrong over there.
(28:22) But in this one dimension, it's right. It's so crazy. So this is what's really wild. People don't understand. People have never asked themselves, why am I attracted to this? And what I've discovered is that a lot of people have this thing called the repetition compulsion, which is that we have certain relationships which kind of get messed up early in life.
(28:41) And then what we try to do is fix those situations in the future. So, we talked about this with you sort of, right? Where there's this wound over here and now you're trying to correct it over here, but no matter how much you try, it doesn't work 100%. >> And that happens all the time in relationships.
(28:58) So, like what what we'll discover and there's a lot of research about this, right? So, if you had a parent who's abusive, the likelihood that you will date someone who is abusive is is high higher than normal. Way higher than normal. So what happens is and literally the way this looks psychologically is like I tried my whole life to get let's say my dad to like love me and I failed.
(29:27) But now that this person is behaving in the same way I'm going to make them love me because if I can succeed over here I'll be healed. Does that kind of make sense? >> Yeah. >> And so and there's other elements to this too just the kind of conditioning that we're comfortable with. So, here's what's really weird is when I work with patients who are trauma survivors, the first reaction they have to the relationship they should engage in is discomfort.
(29:54) It's weird. Like, what are you doing? >> Like, what are you doing getting me a gift? Cuz their association with gift is dad used to get me gifts after he hit me and now you're getting me a gift. Like what the the the thing we'll say in the US is waiting for the other shoe to drop. So they they run away from the very things.
(30:16) And for dudes too, it's like like you know I I'll work with a lot of men who have something called avoidant attachment which is like they have difficulty with intimacy. So they want sex to be a transactional relationship. And when someone like when a woman is like warm with them or it like you know like if they're having a hard day, she like takes your head and puts it on her chest, not as a sexual move, but just as like let me hold you as a human because you're having a tough time.
(30:44) They like get really confused. They want a a woman who's really sexy, right? Not a woman who's like caring cuz that's like ew that's gay, [laughter] you know? A and so there are a lot of these weird things that happen in relationships where we're attracted to a particular thing but we need to stop and ask ourselves why is my brain attracted to this thing and often times you know you'll we kind kind of understand this colloially where we'll say this person has daddy issues or this person has mommy issues and if you've got daddy
(31:15) issues you're going to date a lot of people who are abusive or whatever. If you have mommy issues, you're going to date people who are I I don't know, abusive or motherly or I I don't know exactly what. So, there's a lot of stuff about attraction that like often times what we need to do is date the people that we're not initially attracted to.
(31:34) And when you look at successful relationships, that'll often times be the case, right? So, we didn't start out >> this way. And this is kind of funny. So my wife and I basically had one rule when we were dating. Both of us had one rule, which is that we're not going to end up with an Indian person.
(31:54) And we're both Indian. Like we're both [laughter] good. I was like, there's no way I'm marrying an Indian girl. And she's like, there's no way I'm marrying an Indian guy. It's like Indian guys are like, you know, they're like mama's boys and they want everything done for them and stuff like that.
(32:06) There's no way I'm marrying an Indian girl. It's like I can't handle that. And [snorts] so we really bonded over that like, you know, so so it's so interesting. We come up with these rules early on and this too is kind of like silly. Like what do you know about a successful relationship and you're coming up with all these rules about what you deserve and stuff like that.
(32:25) And this is where we can get to the science of of love and relationships because none of that stuff is what leads to a successful relationship. Anything that you see on a dating app has nothing to do with a successful relationship. And here's the really scary thing. The dating apps can't select for the things that result in relationships. Okay.
(32:48) I I don't Yeah. >> Right. So, it's kind of weird like So, let me ask you this. >> So, Okay, great. >> You're pretty good at your job, right, Raj? >> Mhm. >> If I were to look at your resume, would I would a resume be able to capture who you are in the workplace? >> No. So that's a huge gap, right? So a piece of paper that lists certain qualities.
(33:16) >> So we say 13 million, 14 million followers, that's very impressive. But even though I know that sitting with you is completely different. >> True. >> Even 14 million doesn't represent who you are. Maybe 20. [laughter] >> Let me know if I'm going too far. Okay. >> No, no, you can you can go any okay with it.
(33:34) >> Yeah. Right. Right. So, so in the same way if we don't expect and this is the real tragedy and you people may have like encountered this, right? Where like someone gets hired and you interview someone and their resume looks great but then they like show up and they don't know what's going on.
(33:50) We had I I have a quick story about this. So, >> you know, I was on the I I did a little bit of work. I wasn't on the committee, but I did some application review when I was in residency at Harvard. And so I'd look at applications and we'd take a look at who to interview and who not to interview and it's you know some people would have really great application.
(34:08) I'm thinking about one student in particular and you know so they asked us they're like you know what do you guys think about this person they've been rotating with us for a little while and we're like eh and so this is cool about this is what I love about psychiatrists is like we didn't say we didn't like them because we didn't know how to say it.
(34:24) >> Yeah. >> We like there's nothing wrong with them but we didn't feel enthusiastic. >> Yeah. So, one of the psychiatrists, this brilliant uh doctor named Laura, so she was like, you know, I would not want to teach her for 4 years. She's annoying. And so, she was like the boss, right? And she was like, she's just annoying.
(34:45) Like, you can't capture that on a resume. She's like, I just wouldn't want to teach her like like it's not fun. And you know, she's like, if I I like the feeling that I get of supervising her overnight on call is like I wouldn't want to do that. [laughter] >> And it was like little things like she she always needed to she was very accomplished, >> but she had to let everybody know.
(35:07) >> It's like we're trying to we've got 15 patients talk. We don't need I know you're brilliant and you read this paper about how trauma can manifest in this particular way, but that's like not relevant to what's going on right now. They're overdosing on heroin. like we don't need to understand trauma like in this moment.
(35:25) So they were just adding a lot of irrelevant information and and things like that >> showing that they're smart for no reason. Yeah. >> So the application is one thing and then the person is something else. And then along come dating apps and but the dating apps have a problem which is that they can only collect certain information. >> Yeah.
(35:43) >> They can only display certain information. And now they've got a bigger problem because first there's Tinder and now there's Hinge. So now Tinder is competing with Hinge. And the closer that you get to actually judging the success of a relationship, the less user friendly you become. I want to swipe through photos and quick bios.
(36:03) I don't want to look at a 126 page personality analysis with Kundi and astrological whatever, right? Like if we look at the process of matchmaking, who knows if it's scientifically correct or not, but it's like it's like pretty big, >> right? You can't reduce that to a resume. And so if we look at the scientific things that lead to relationships, they're not the things that we can select for really.
(36:28) And and so a lot of people will be attracted to things, right? They'll say, "Oh, I deserve this or I want someone who's 6 feet tall and makes this much money and and this and that or I want a woman who does this or has a certain physical proportions or whatever." But that's not what relationships are made of. Like if you go to you know like I go to the playground with my kids you look at the people who are mating and it's like normal people man right like a little bit pet you spared a word in [laughter] >> moms and dads like >> you know you know before we go deeper in
(37:03) science of >> love right I want to understand attraction because you you pointed out very interesting thing and I could >> while I could focus on you at the same day I could think about like 20 of my friends who have like different sort of attraction and different things and I think the more I talk to them the more I feel like everyone is broken in their own way and I've not been able to figure out why.
(37:27) So I'm going to throw out these situations in front of you and tell me why this happens. Okay. >> Okay. >> Because >> let's start from the point where you said [clears throat and cough] >> a lot of teenage boys are attracted to older women. >> Okay. >> Right. Why? because a lot of older men are attracted to younger women. >> Okay. >> So, what happens in men that when they are young, they're attracted to older women? >> That's a great question.
(37:49) >> And then when they're old, they're attracted to younger women. >> So, so I think when when you're talking about teenage boys, right? So, we talk about sexual development, right? So, when you look at when you're a teen when you're a 13-year-old boy, who are the women who are the women that you see, right? So the girls in your class are still girls.
(38:10) >> Yeah. >> They're not women. But the teachers are women. The the woman that you know you like if you're 13 maybe you're like you know like a teacher is maybe like 35 or something like that. So they're like still like attractive women. So it's just exposure like who are which which adult women will you be be exposed to as a teenager? >> Teachers.
(38:34) >> Teachers is going to be number one, right? and maybe somebody's mom. I think when it comes to older dudes being attracted to younger women, I think there's a couple of different things there. The first is that generally speaking, you know, as we get older, we get less attractive just as humans.
(38:53) So, it's not just that older dudes are attracted to younger women. I think just generally speaking, if you were to like, you know, objectively rate a 50-year-old man against a 25-year-old man or a 50-year-old woman against a 25-year-old woman, sure, everyone is beautiful in their own way, but there's a certain like beauty to youth, which is probably like biological in nature, and we've we've evolved to be attracted to people who are like fertile, >> right? >> So, there's probably an element of that.
(39:20) I think what's kind of interesting is that I don't know that all, not all, even the majority of men are necessarily attracted to younger women. I think there's a certain subset of people who select for like younger women. So that either they're physically attractive or it's more of like a relationship thing or it's like this I see a lot where like dating a younger woman will make you feel young.
(39:47) So, here's what happens with a lot of men is that is you get when you're young, you don't have like responsibilities and stuff, right? And it's just about [laughter] So, so then what happens is like, so you know, you got a 25-year-old dude and you fall in love and things are great and then you're like, you know, you're you're in residency because you were told by your parents to be a doctor and then then like you get married, right? And then like things get challenging.
(40:14) We talked about how, you know, maybe your wife has postpartum depression. You start to not have as much fun at work. Like you start to, you know, spend all all day like arguing with insurance companies if you're in the United States. And then like you start to pay mortgages and then you have kids and they need to go to private school and then like so then like your life gets like so the wife that you have becomes a part of your life, but that freedom of 25 isn't really what you're living anymore.
(40:42) And then you wake up one day and you're 45 years old and you have a midlife crisis and you're like, "This is not like you're working a lot." And like, sure, you're a doctor and you have a lot of money, but you don't have quite as much freedom. And then now you discover that you're 13-year-old daughter is smoking pot and is dating a dude who is not of the ethnicity or religion that you're comfortable with.
(41:04) >> Yeah. >> So then you're your you and your wife have have an argument about it, right? And then like then you meet there's a 23-year-old nurse at your job and she's kind to you. She's supportive. She's young. She doesn't nag you. Hey, did you get the air conditioner fixed or whatever? Right? You say you're going to do it.
(41:29) And then there's a certain amount we talked about how you also, you know, offer the worst parts to your romantic partner. So then, you know, there's like that that 23-year-old represents a different kind of life. A life without mortgages, a life without air conditioning, a life without children, you know. >> Yeah. >> And there's a certain amount of there's we'll get to this, but there's different kinds of love. Love is not one feeling.
(41:56) There's like an emotion and then there's like a commitment. There's different kinds of of what we call love is actually distinct psychological experiences. So, and then you want to go back to that dopamineergic love. >> Yeah. >> So, one of the scary things is that you know why like people don't fall in love anymore? Because we use cell phones.
(42:18) So, so I I don't know if you know this, but have you ever been in love? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, what's it like? You remember the early stages of being in love? What was it like to be in love? all like exciting, jittery, butterflyish. Yeah. >> Like I want to do things for her. I want to be there.
(42:39) I want to make sure that she doesn't get >> like any inconvenience in her life. >> Yeah. So, so when you were with her, you remember like you would see her? >> Yeah. >> Like you know when you're going to see her and then when you do see her. >> What's that like when you see her? like you're meeting her somewhere and you like walk in the door and she's there or you're waiting for her and the door opens and she walks in.
(43:02) What's that like? Do you remember that feeling? >> Yeah. Like it just first let me know like the the amount of time that I take to go meet her that's way more exciting >> like that waiting period >> where hey tomorrow I'm going to see her. So the cool thing is that right there is dopamine. So anticipation is regulated by dopamine.
(43:29) >> So if I use heroin, I want heroin. I'm excited. I'm going to get high tomorrow. >> Yeah. >> Craving is dopamine. Pleasure is dopamine. Right. >> You know, that's all it takes. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> That's all it takes. You don't even need to have second. Just touch. It's like, oh my god. >> Yes.
(43:52) Yes. It's like like when we're just walking and then suddenly the hand rubs with I was like [laughter] >> yeah that that feeling is like yeah >> right so so that like the neuro like what's going on in your brain that's dopamine. So the scary thing is as we use like social media and like technology and stuff like that our dopamineergic circuitry is getting messed up and as our dopamineergic circuitry gets messed up people are not having those feelings anymore.
(44:17) M >> so you you'll see like so one of the things you know one of the bits of advice that I'll give people who are trying to fall in love is don't use your cell phone for an hour before you go on a date which is like the exact opposite of what most people do. They're on the cell phone until the date starts and in bad cases during the date.
(44:34) So I'll tell people like you know this was back when I was in Boston but they take the subway the metro and then it's like okay get off like 1 hour away and walk to the date and don't touch your cell phone. So, you need time for your dopamine stores to actually regenerate. And you will literally neurochemically set yourself up to fall in love because people don't fall in love anymore, right? They like date and it's like I've been dating and like it's this and then like dating has become like a job interview. What do you how much money do
(45:02) you make and what do you do this and do you want to have kids and do you want to do this, right? It's not like this organic feeling of falling in love is is governed by dopamine. That phase is dopamine. >> That is so true, >> right? It's hard. >> It's Yeah. >> So then there's a couple of other steps. So the other things that we know about falling in love are shared emotional experience is what leads to love.
(45:30) Not like onetoone, but that's an important part. So there's a one of my favorite studies about this is they had people go on a first date >> in the middle of a bridge. >> But there are two kinds of bridge. One is a stone bridge, one is a rickety wooden bridge. And on that rickety wooden bridge, you know, like you're not like you're being manly, but like both of you are like a little bit scared because it's like shaking.
(45:53) It's like it's not going to fall, but it's like eh. >> So, so that that experience creates >> the same emotional experience in both of you. >> And it doesn't even have to be good. It's just both y'all have to feel the same emotion because then that forms an empathic connection. And so this is why I see this all the time in rehab where like addicts are going through all these like withdrawals and negative emotions and we're processing trauma and we're forming all these deep bonds.
(46:18) You form like these really great bonds. When you go through something with someone, right, you feel bonded to them for life. And so that bond that like when when you like, oh yeah, like there was that that year in college that was like so hard and like this person was there for me and you feel bonded.
(46:34) It's not sexual even. It's just this is how bonds form. So, that's something that a lot of people miss because if you think about a date, you know, you know, sometimes I'll have patients who are on the autism spectrum and if they go on a date with somebody else on the autism spectrum and both of them are equally anxious, they can form a great bond, right? But, but a lot of times what'll happen is like one person, you know, if you're going in and you're like interviewing someone, I'm going to be like, "Are you good enough for me?"
(47:01) that emotional energy is going to be very different from the other person or if it's the same. So like you know I'll work with some people who are like power couples and it's like are you good enough for me and then the other person is like are you good enough for me? Oh this is going to work great.
(47:17) Where are you going to be in 5 years? I'm going to be here. Where are you going to be in 5 years? I'm going to be here. It's going to work great. >> My wife and I bonded over disliking dating Indian people >> you know. So you have to have a shared emotional experience. So, I think this is where some of these things like escape rooms and stuff like that, like even movies, like why do people go on It's interesting, right? Why do people go to the movies on dates? Like, think about it for a second.
(47:39) You're not actually interacting. The reason that works is because the movie creates a shared emotional experience, >> right? Like, it's it's tense and then like, oh my god, like this and this and you it doesn't have to be a romcom. >> Yeah. >> Right. But you're laughing together, you're crying together, you're at the edge of your seat together.
(47:57) And so, that's like why that works. It's really interesting. So that's another a big part. Um, another big part is like repeated unplanned interaction. So this is repeated unplanned interaction. So if you look at like this is why affairs happen. Like if you think about dating, dating, dating has pressure. >> Falling in love doesn't.
(48:19) >> Yeah. >> Right. So dating is like there's expectations. >> We have to schedule. >> Yeah. >> Are you coming? Are you I'm 15 minutes late. Oh my god, this person is 15 minutes late. He's disrespecting my time. >> Yeah. >> So, think about that for a minute. When you're 15 minutes late late to a date, you're already sabotaged because this person feels disrespected.
(48:40) You feel apologetic. We think that's a match. It's not a match. It's not how people fall in love. If you ever seen a romcom where one person is disre respected, another person, but maybe they start that way, but then circumstances bring them to the, "Oh, now you're disrespecting me and I'm apologetic.
(48:56) " Things flip, right? Right. So there's always empathic connection. >> Yeah. >> Whereas falling in love, so when you show up at work every day and this person is there, repeated unplanned interactions, there there's no pressure. And when there's no pressure, emotions can arise organically and naturally. So this is why like you know a lot of times like people who who you're dating you're creating this weird artificial thing and like falling in love and this is what predisposes people to affairs is is and this is also why like people have affairs at work. So
(49:29) what's unfortunately quite common is you know doctor has affair with nurse at work. Really common. And what's going on there? It's like we're both working in the trenches. Oh my god this patient is coding. Like, let's see if we can like we're doing chest compressions and things like that. Oh, thank God it's over.
(49:46) Like, we both feel relieved. Hey, good job. You No, you did a great job. Oh my god. Like, fantastic. Hey, do you want to grab something to eat? Oh, I'm like I'm going down the cafeteria. Oh, I'm starving. Let's go. And then you go and you sit and then you just talk. There's no dating, >> you know? I'm old enough to be your dad.
(50:05) [snorts] But something starts to happen. But what's there in what's there in for that nurse? Because you explained the psychology of this man who's going through midlife crisis and this young woman who's 23 year old looks like no mortgage, no kids, nothing like an exciting life which probably this person has left. He's 45.
(50:28) [clears throat] This 23 year old woman, she can get anyone. Why is she falling for this 45y old guy? >> But remember, so remember the actual formula. The formula is shared emotional experience. The formula is unplanned interaction. >> Right? So those are there. We're both in the trenches together.
(50:45) We're doing it together. Then there are a couple of other things to to consider. The first is the big advantage of the doctor is that he's not a 23-y old dude. Like 23-y old dudes >> like like I mean some women are in to dudes their age, >> you know, but it's very common for women to date older. Yeah. like a few men who are a couple years older.
(51:08) That's probably because of cognitive development. Like men are a little bit slower, so maturity is slower. Um, but then also like he's got a career, he's got money. Um, there's some I I don't love these studies like these studies that look at populations and ask women what they're attracted to. There's a there's a problem when you survey a woman about what she's attracted to.
(51:29) That's very different from what she ends up with. So if I survey people about what kind of job would you want, >> that's very different from the job that people end up with, right? >> So some of these survey data, I think they're just very bad quality data and it's a like a lot of this clickbait stuff. >> What do women say and then what do they end up with? >> So here's a couple of great things.
(51:49) This isn't this is a completely different >> um thing, but so the average sexual act is 3 to 7 minutes. >> Okay. >> Okay. 50% of women do not want sex to last longer than 15 50 minutes. I mean the 15 minutes 50% of women want sex to be 15 minutes or under. So like this idea of like you know like people don't understand the numbers behind like actual sex. Now that's survey data.
(52:18) But I I think that uh you know this is where like what you end up being attracted to and who you fall for is not what you would select on a dating profile. And that's exactly why dating profiles like don't work because the people that we end up with like case in point with me and my wife and the funny thing that I I did this interesting kind of I haven't quite answered your question but I I started paying attention to the relationships of my patients.
(52:44) >> Mhm. >> And what I found is that every good relationship that my patients that I see in my patients they all start with a red flag. Mhm. >> Like just things that are like crazy like either some age gap relationship like you know I had one patient who's 21 and he started dating a 16-year-old and now they're like happily married with like two kids and you know now it's fine.
(53:11) They're like both in their 50s but it started out and it's like that's kind of like no, right? And what I realized is that a red flag early in a relationship actually teaches you a lot more about a person. So if we have a problem early in a relationship, then we navigate that problem or it falls apart. Whereas if it's green flags at the very beginning, we go two years into relationship and then we have our first problem and then things fall apart.
(53:40) So I started to really examine this because it's like why are all these successful relationships starting with red flags? Another good example is oh yeah you know red flag is addicted to heroin and it's like should we date like if you're on your Tinder profile or h profile or whatever people use in India it's like hi my name is all I've been using heroin and trying to get clean for like six years [laughter] but like early on you know like it it tests a relationship.
(54:08) So I think you get to select for certain things like me mechanisms of conflict resolution. Is this person willing to grow? >> So this is such an anxiety that people have. So if you you find someone who's like a a great person on paper, one of the biggest anxieties about getting married is like will they change when it counts? You can answer that on day one if you take someone who is bad at something and you try to change them right at the beginning.
(54:36) Right? Right. So like like there's some weird things that we do like if we're just looking for green flags, we don't really get to see how we navigate conflict together. We don't get to see if this person is willing to change in the right way. You know, someone can be really successful but also really rigid and are they going to change? Are they going to continue? Like it's great that they work hard and they make x hundred thousands of dollars a year, but when you have kids, are they going to leave their job and support you or not? You
(55:05) can't know that if you just have straight green flags. Whereas early on with red flags when you tell them, hey, like >> I want you to, you know, move with me to this place and like I want you to leave your job. Are they willing to make that sacrifice? So I think there's a lot of stuff that we do that's like quite counterintuitive.
(55:25) Like a lot of the truisms about like dating and relationships just doesn't hap it's not correct. >> I'll ask you about rigid. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll we'll talk about that. [clears throat] But because we're talking about attraction and why people fall in love, counterintuitive to what you just told me, there are a lot of there are two types of cases which I see a lot in ultraachievers, men and women both.
(55:52) >> Okay. in my friend circle and people who I've met that there's some sort of thing that a lot of young successful people have developed. One is they only want because you also also mentioned like power couples, right? >> Yeah. >> A lot of successful individuals only want to date someone who trades up their status.
(56:18) >> Yeah. >> Like why is that? So, let let me ask you why not what's wrong with dating a loser? >> I don't know. So, I I think it depends a lot on what your value system is and what you're actually selecting for. >> So, here's like the crazy thing, right? So, if you look at falling in love, it's not a selection.
(56:48) That's not what it is. You can't choose who you love. If you did, then the world would be a very different place. >> Yeah. >> Right. If anything, if we look at like our parents' generation or two generations up, especially in India, like they learn to love. Like that's a completely foreign concept for kids nowadays.
(57:06) Like it's this idea of like you know, I'm attracted to this person therefore I should date them. No, you shouldn't, man. Who knows what kind of trauma is dictating that, right? What are you trying to prove? >> Yeah. >> Right. What are you trying to fix? There's something called a samscar, which is like an emotional wound from the past.
(57:26) There's some emotional energy where they're they're trying to compensate for something that happened a long time ago, right? So like I loved this person, they didn't love me back. And so like I'm going to I was a loser then and I'm never going to be a loser again. And if this person, if I'm dating this person, then I certainly am not a loser.
(57:49) That can be a part of it. A part of it can be ego, right? So as our hamara or as our ego starts to grow, right? So I am this thing now. I'm a tech entrepreneur and tech entrepreneurs don't date losers. They date people who are like in my league. Another part of it is a sense of security.
(58:14) So, it's like if there's a person who doesn't have money who's now dating me, they could be dating me for my money. But if I find someone who already has money, then they're not dating me for my money because they have their own money, >> right? So, like I'm removing that from the equation. I've seen all those things. They're all factors.
(58:31) >> Um, you know, which one is it for a particular person? Maybe all of the above. Another big factor is it's just what's done. So in Silicon Valley, trading up is what you do. Now that I'm a tech billionaire, tech billionaires date Bollywood actresses. That's what they do. That's it's what's done, right? So there's a certain social norm that now you're sort of living into.
(58:56) And a lot of these tech entrepreneurs, they have huge ego problems. I don't mean that in a bad way, but they're like there used to be a normal human. And I don't know if this makes sense. I want you to think about when humans evolved 10,000 years ago. Your status in your tribe of 300 people, how high could that go? Right? You can only move from 300 to one. That's the maximum.
(59:24) There's no like you know 5 billion to 100. So this is the other thing that people don't really realize is that the psychological environment that our brain exists in is like not what our brain was designed for. And we'll see this on the on the flip side. I'll give you an example. So content creators, this is what's really interesting.
(59:50) So if you look at a content creator, you know, 99% of people can like you and 1% of people can hate you and that's enough to ruin your life. Yeah. >> Right. And the people don't understand. They're like, "Okay, like if 999,000 people like you and 1,000 people hate you, that's nothing." Except the human brain, I want you to think about this.
(1:00:11) How many people need to hate you to ruin your life? Like, what do you think? How many How many people What? That's all it takes. So, this is what people don't understand about content creators. 9999,000 people liking me is great, but all it takes is one to ruin your life. So there's there's some economy of scale that starts to happen that like our psychology is not designed for.
(1:00:37) M >> so when I work with these people I'll do a lot of work around um and you know we started like this creator coaching program and stuff like that because there's like some weird stuff that is not like normal that we've learned how to deal with these people and like they have to understand these principles um that the human brain doesn't think probabilistically like that's why people buy lottery tickets right so there's all kinds of stuff for a particular person I don't know which of these things it is so that's a to a certain degree human
(1:01:06) tendency there's couple pieces of it, right? So, one is if I stratify into levels >> and I think like okay, at this level you do this, at this level you do this. This is really common in India because if you if you look at it like there's >> you know you have a restaurant where there's an entree that's like 6,000 rupees and then outside you have a oneup guy who's selling something for 60 rupees.
(1:01:33) >> So there's like classes. >> Yeah. >> Right. All over the world. Yeah. >> I think they're just like right next to each other >> and the gap is huge. >> Yeah. Our social stratification is really messed up. >> Yeah. So I think that when you're when you live in that kind of society, you're like, I'm a this kind of person.
(1:01:50) I'm not a that kind of person. And then when you get elevated, you're like, okay, now I'm elevated. Now we do this. Right? So it's like we we drink this, but once we make money, we drink Johnny Walker or whatever, right? There's like there's things that are done. So some of it is like social conditioning where now that I'm this kind of person, this is the kind of person that I should date.
(1:02:10) >> I think another part of it is ego. So this is the thing that's like basically human which is that you always move the goalposts, right? We talked about this earlier. We're like 1 million is we're celebrating today and is insufficient tomorrow. And it's like what? >> Yeah. >> Right.
(1:02:27) So the human being always wants more. And the reason you want more is because of the way that your brain, this is the real tragedy. The real tragedy of human beings is that we can adapt. So if I program a computer to be happy, it runs the same program every day as happy every day. Doesn't work with humans because we adapt. So I want one cookie. Now one cookie isn't enough.
(1:02:49) Now I want two. >> And that's because we developed this thing called tolerance. So like one cookie just doesn't give us the dopamineergic signal that it used to. And that's why there's like there's a certain techniques that we have to do like getting rid of our ego, right? And learning what the nature of contentment really is and learning that and this is where like you know these old meditators from Buddhism and Hinduism for thousands of years have been saying that you're it's never going to work.
(1:03:15) Satisfying your desires is never going to work. And one of the things that I'll say a lot is, you know, I mention a lot is like the happiness from your wedding day doesn't la last a lifetime. Yeah. >> The tragedy is that resentment from your wedding day will last a lifetime, >> right? I wanted this and I wanted to have this at the meal and you didn't want that and you didn't do this and like so so it's it's just it's a real tragedy.
(1:03:46) Really screwed >> cuz we can hold on to resentment for so long. Being content is a skill. It's not something we're born with. We chase dopamine. We chase these things. I think that okay now I'm like a tech entrepreneur. You're still the same. I mean whether you you kid. >> Yeah. Like when you take a dump, you're still the same person.
(1:04:04) >> Yeah. >> I I tell people sometimes they're surprising you. I'm like like you can't biopsy me and find a doctor. There's not a doctor in here. It's just like this label. >> And that's why when I work with these people like that's why they come to me, right? Cuz they have everything but they're still not happy.
(1:04:22) and then they watch a podcast like this. [laughter] >> Why do people get bored in a relationship? They then they chase another person and then >> so they start dating this one person, they get bored of it, >> then there's everything going fine in the relationship. There's nothing wrong. >> Yeah. >> They still dump that person and want to chase someone else.
(1:04:43) And it's almost like I did a we we made a real about it. There's a phenomena which is called monkey branching. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know about it, right? Yeah. So it's like you're in a relationship but you're already chasing someone else and the moment that other side is like sort of confirmed or somewhere then you want to dump this person and want to jump on another relationship because you keep getting bored of the same thing.
(1:05:04) >> Yeah. So monkey branching I think is a bit different. So monkey branching is like my understanding of it is is it's not breaking up. It's quitting your job when you've already accepted an offer somewhere else. Right. There's no period without right. Right. I'm not going to quit and then go look for a job.
(1:05:20) I'm going to find my next job and then put in my notice. >> That's what people do in relationships as well. >> Yeah. So, but why people get bored is is different. The same thing happens to that feeling of love that happens with everything else that's dopamineergic, which is that we get bored of it. >> So, the first time I play a video game, it's so much fun. Oh my god.
(1:05:38) But do I play that game for the rest of my life? Absolutely not. The first time you watch a movie, oh my god, it's so good. So what has to happen for a relationship to survive is that you have to transition to a different kind of love that has a different kind of like neurochemistry. So um there there's um agape love.
(1:05:55) I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. It's like Greek. There's like aeros love. So like the Greeks did a really good job of sort of there's like a love that involves sacrifice, right? But that's different from the dopamineergic love. There's a love of like peace and contentment. That's different from the dopamineergic love.
(1:06:14) And so what you have to do in a relationship is you have to successfully transition from the dopamineergic love to other kinds of love. So hopefully if you're lucky somewhere in there, you know, being in love and loving someone are different. That make sense? >> Yeah. >> Right.
(1:06:35) So what ideally in a successful relationship, what you will do is transition from being in love to loving. Yeah. >> But this person gives me butterflies in the stomach. It's kind of like a neurochemical thing. And the problem is that people assume that that has some other significance. So the other interesting thing is you started fighting a lot.
(1:07:03) That's really common too. So this is the other thing that people don't you know people say there's a thin line between love and hate. kind of a weird neurochemical princ neuroscience principle, but if you look at your relationship to this person, >> it is governed by your emotion, right? I don't know if this makes sense, but your connection to this person is fundamentally emotional.
(1:07:22) >> Yeah. >> And so other emotions can take that place. So, so you're like love and anger can quickly replace each other and it's still the nature of your connection to this person is emotional and unless it has other forms of connection other forms of stability anger can easily replace love and then love can replace anger and this is why people I don't know if you've had friends or maybe you've gone through this who like will break up and get back together break up and get back together that's because their fundamental connection is
(1:07:52) emotional and emotions change and as the emotion changes, they get back together. If emotion changes, they break up. They emotion changes, they get back together. Right? So, a healthy long-term relationship is going to be one that the foundation of the relationship is actually not emotional. Some of these other aspects of sacrifice, commitment, right? This is what our parents and their parents did. You're committed.
(1:08:18) Might as well fall in love if you can find some way to do it, >> right? So, the commitment can come first. M >> it's a different kind of love. Your parents, your grandparents may have never been in love, but they love each other probably, right? So, it's a different kind of thing. You you speak about commitment.
(1:08:35) >> Yeah. >> And here's what's fascinating. If you look at a lot of research around it, relationships which are not marriage, majority of people who break that are men. Women are not women don't do more breakups as much as men do to get out of the relationship. But in marriages, 70% of divorces are filed first by women.
(1:09:03) Yeah. Why do you think what's happening here? Like when it's marriage, men don't want divorce as much as women want. But when it's a relationship which is not marriage, it's just somebody in a long-term relationship or a short-term relationship, men want to break up and women don't. >> Okay.
(1:09:21) So I was at a Have you ever heard of an organization called YPO? >> Yeah, I've heard. >> Okay. So I I was giving a talk at a YPO conference. So it's a group of entrepreneurs. So it's a young president's organization. >> So we started talking about this. >> So here's the really interesting thing. So sometimes people will take issue with that statistic that 70% of divorces are initiated by women.
(1:09:42) So here's the really interesting statistic. If women are so if women are more responsible for initiating divorce, what would you predict about homosexual relationships? Right. So if women are the problem, if there are two men who get married and two women who get married, what would you predict about the divorce rate? >> I don't think women are the problem.
(1:10:10) I think men just suffocate them to the score that at one point they do it. But based on this, I think just putting apples to apples, I think the women with women would have more higher rate of divorces than men with men. >> Right? So um and that's exactly what you find in the research. So 70, you know, 50% of couples get divorced, 30 to 35% of gay couples get divorced, 70% of lesbian couples get divorced.
(1:10:38) [laughter] I think that's rough. Maybe it's 65% of lesbian couples, >> right? So, this is like really scary because oh my god, now we're saying women as but let's understand why we're this is just statistics. >> So, really interesting things. There's something called takatubo cardiomyopathy. >> What? So the risk of a heart attack cardiomyopathy is a kind of problem with your heart that can result in death.
(1:11:08) It's inflammation of the heart muscle. >> Okay? >> Happens to men way more than women. Happens after a divorce especially or a breakup. So there's a very acute risk of myioardial infuction or heart attack when a man gets divorced that is not there in the woman. at the same degree. So we have evidence on a physiological level that divorce affects men in a more negative way at least if you look at cardiac outcomes.
(1:11:41) There's also evidence that the inflammation that men experience post divorce is higher than women. So divorce is literally like a riskier life thing like it's a it's a health there's an acute risk of of takatubo cardiammyopathy there's a ton of research behind this first thing we have to understand is men and women are not the same biologically >> and and this is a good example of this second thing is if you ask psychologically when a man gets divorced if you ask a woman what are you losing with a divorce they say I'm losing a relationship ship.
(1:12:16) If you ask a man, "What are you losing with a divorce?" They say, "I'm losing a life." This is like they fundamentally men and women view marriage in a different way. There's other evidence that part of the reason that toxubiocardiamopathy happens to men more could be biological, but could also be because women have a wider support network.
(1:12:43) So a man will have maybe one person to manage them emotionally. Number one is mom and then we transfer to wife. So like the cost of divorce according to some research is higher for men. And I I don't mean financially. I mean like physiologically things like that. So So if you ask a man what is a marriage? It's not a relationship. It's a life.
(1:13:09) So they if you ask a man like what is a marriage? It's the play. It's the home that that I live in. It's a garage. It's it's a workshop. It's my kids. It's it's this kind of thing. Their whole their marriage is their life. >> Yeah. >> And for women, a marriage is a relationship. I I'm generalizing here, which I don't like to do.
(1:13:27) I hate to do this kind of stuff, but that's honestly what the research shows >> is that they they view these things differently. Um, and and what I think is really scary is like the reason I I sort of put some weight on this is because like even physiologically like the outcomes are drastically different. I don't think it's women's fault.
(1:13:49) This is not an issue of fault. This is just an issue of what the value of the thing is. And I'm not even saying one is greater or lesser. I'll be very clear here. Qualitatively these things mean different things on average to the average man and to the average woman. But why before the marriage they are less likely to break up versus postmarriage? >> I'm not sure. I I don't know.
(1:14:16) >> What do you think? >> Um more men break up, they leave. >> Yeah. I I don't know. I I mean I'm not sure. So So I can't think of >> I'll tell you my guess. >> Yeah. And my guess when I read this, it was more about I think it has to do more with social acceptance because when a man breaks up uh and without a marriage, it's not seen that in a negative light at all versus because then he's just maybe he's a stud.
(1:14:53) He's just walking around and he can have multiple options or whatever it is. It's not looked at in a negative light. But after marriage, man makes it his life. Yeah. This this wife, this woman, this kid, the family, this his whole identity and he don't he doesn't want to separate that in public eye. So he feels more shame. >> So even if it's a bad one, then he wants to be associated with it.
(1:15:15) >> Yeah. I think that that has a lot of I think there's a lot of weight to that. So I think if you look at broken off engagements, I think socially an engagement that's broken negatively affects the woman more than the man usually, right? So but in but I I I think there's I need more data really because what I'm curious about is what is the time frame of those breakups? >> Mhm.
(1:15:40) >> So when you say breakup, are we talking about really short relationships? >> Every it was just >> marriage versus non-marriage. That was the data bar. I I I know. But but that's what I'm saying is that data is not good enough. Right. So So there's some I've heard this stuff. There's some evidence of it. It's not great.
(1:15:58) >> Women will fall in love faster than men actually >> and then like men are kind of like slow to do it. And then when we fall in love, we are maybe fall in love a little bit harder and a little bit stupider. I'm not quite sure. So I'm I'm really hesitant for these generalizations. So, I'm really curious about about that statistic of men initiate more breakups.
(1:16:19) I'd want to see occur uh I'd want to see data on how long the relationship is. And I wouldn't be surprised if men are breaking up at the early stages of a relationship higher, but I I doubt that that curve is like even. Does that kind of make sense? >> So, I just need to see more data to really hypothesize. I don't know.
(1:16:42) But I I think maybe you're right that you know a man breaking off an engagement seems to affect the man less. >> And because we're talking about men and women, we're talking about love relationships and everything like >> what's harder today to for a man to get a partner or for a woman to get a partner because it's all country related. Okay.
(1:17:11) Because I was I was looking at countries like >> America and there are more men struggling and I was looking countries like Japan where more women struggling and then >> I countries like India where I think everybody's struggling who doesn't have >> Yeah. So I I think that's a very and I I don't mean this in a critical way that's a bad question.
(1:17:33) I mean the structure of the question is bad because it assumes a a univerat thing. who's who has it harder. I think a a better question is a better way to understand it is what are the ways in which it can be hard. >> Okay. >> So I I'll give you just a simple example. So like you know people will say like who has it harder right now men or women.
(1:17:55) I think they each have it harder in different ways. And I'm not even saying that it's equal. It's just like different dimensions of stuff right. So what makes dating hard for women? Women are more likely to be sexually assaulted. What makes it hard for men? Men are more likely to be accused of sexual assault. So I I think I saw one study where one out of five men was accused of sexual inappropriateness in the workplace.
(1:18:23) So people will ask like, you know, why don't men ask out women anymore? And it's because men are afraid. So So I I think that each gender what's going something is changing. So we used to get into relationships in a particular system that system has changed drastically and when we break the system the different pieces of the system are getting stressed in different ways and I I don't I don't know how to quantify the risk of accusation of sexual assault versus the risk of being sexually assaulted. Right? So, I I know it may
(1:19:00) seem like an easy thing. >> Getting accused is not as bad as getting assaulted, >> but I'm not sure about that. And and I say this as someone who has had patients that I have immense compassion for who've been through both. It's really shocking some people, what the weirdest thing that I ever learned about sexual assault is how non-traumatizing it is for 50% of people.
(1:19:22) >> See, people don't realize this. Like you look at like, you know, genocide. Not a 100% of people who have been through genocidal situations wind up with PTSD. In fact, the minority do. I've had so many patients who've been assaulted and then they actually okay with it. And if I not that it was good or anything like that, they're it was like a bad thing.
(1:19:43) They're like, "Okay, like it was a bad thing. I'm going to prosecute the person, but I'm not like traumatized. I still am able like I'm I'm still able to, you know, I'm resilient." Some people are resilient. They're not broken by things like this. And that can be really confusing for a lot of people because everyone thinks I'm supposed to I'm supposed to fall apart, but I'm actually like, okay, it's a bad thing.
(1:20:02) I think I know it's a bad thing. I'm not saying I'm not pretending it didn't happen. Um, but I'm also like I'm okay. You know, it's a bad thing that happened, but I'm okay. So, I I I think that, you know, I I think the the structure of the question is is bad in the sense that you have to look at it closer.
(1:20:24) So, is it harder for men? Is it harder for women? I think the ways in which it is hard is different for from each person. >> Second thing is that I think um so part of the work that I do is in trying to help men not be creeps, [snorts] right? So, so like >> I was looking into the science of the ick. Have you heard of this? >> Yeah. >> Where it's like this girl is like this guy gives me the ick.
(1:20:49) That's a thing. So when I say like the creep is not net worth and the reason that I say it's not net worth or like the difference between harassment and and what's the other >> asking out. >> Asking out okay is not net worth because there's actually a lot of science about what gives people the ick and what constitutes harassment.
(1:21:07) So here's what constitutes harassment. Really simple. Number one is not having a safe out. So, if I ask out a girl and she never has to see me again, that's actually fine. Like, that's way safer. If I ask out a girl and we work together, that's less safe. Does that make sense? If I if I follow a girl to the bathroom because I I I'm nervous around asking her out to her friends and then she opens the bathroom door and I'm standing there and I ask her out, that is less safe, right? That's creepy.
(1:21:49) >> Yeah. >> Even though in my mind I may not realize I'm doing anything wrong, right? I I had a patient once who did this, [laughter] right? And it's like he doesn't he didn't understand. >> Yeah. Right? Cuz he's like, "Okay, like get her by herself and ask her out." So he's like following her and waiting for an opportunity.
(1:22:10) Like that's creepy, right? So So the first thing to understand is that harassment is a lack of safety. >> Second thing is harassment is persistence. So once I say no, am I going to ask you again? Am I That's what harassment requires. It's not like a one-time thing. It's like persistence. Um, that's the second thing. There are a couple of other things about the ick.
(1:22:33) So, I think a safe environment is like really important, right? So, so like do I feel so I I think this is where like asking a girl out while she's with her friends >> is the safest thing to do. And it's also like mega Chad move, right? walking up to like a group of women and being like, "Hey, I noticed you from across the room. I know it's insane.
(1:23:00) I would love to hang out with you sometime. Can I get your number?" Like, absolute Chad move. She can reject you, but she feels safe because she's with people, right? Even better is to ask a girl out when she's out on a date with her boyfriend [laughter] because then she's got to protect her, right? Like, right? Maximum safety.
(1:23:20) [laughter] Um, don't do that. I I want to insert a story here. Okay. There there's a friend of mine. >> Oh my god. [laughter] >> I It's It's an incredible story. Okay. >> And uh it's it's crazy. So, she went out on a date with her boyfriend, which is a long-term boyfriend, and they've been dating since a long time. And the boyfriend goes to the bathroom, and suddenly this guy comes up.
(1:23:42) >> Yeah. >> And approaches. And then the girl says that, "Hey, I'm here with my boyfriend. I'm sorry, this and that." And then the guy politely goes and sit there. Okay. The boyfriend comes back. The girl says the boyfriend sends a bottle of wine to that table with a note says, "You have an incredible taste.
(1:24:02) " [laughter] >> That was And then this girl, she even fall fell in love with this this boyfriend like even more. [laughter] >> So bossy. So yeah, just coming back to I just wanted to put that in like >> it's a ballsy move. >> I [laughter] love it. So, so I I I think there's, you know, there's ballsy and harassment are not the same.
(1:24:23) >> If anything, like what's ballsy is being able to step back, right? Like that's that's what makes people feel safe. >> So, I I don't think it's just net worth. I mean, or people predisposed and I can totally understand that there's a lot of women who will say that in a comment section. This is the other problem.
(1:24:40) A comment section is not research, >> right? So, what is what is the actual behavior? So if anything, I mean, I've I've seen a lot of cases of like the opposite. So I want you to just think about this for a second, right? Let's say like it's hard hard to think of a good hypothetical. Let's just say you're a woman and you're 29.
(1:25:04) If a rich dude starts pursuing you, what do you think your instinctive reaction is going to be? Like pursuing you a lot, >> right? So like this is hard for a lot of men to understand. Like I think a lot of women would feel very afraid because a rich dude is a powerful dude. A rich dude is a dude who's used to getting his way.
(1:25:26) So like I I've seen lots of cases where like just because a rich guy is like super into you, like some women are charmed. Some women are terrified. Like what is the association? Is this guy like can he take no for an answer? He seems to not be taking no for an answer. Or maybe she's into it and she says yes. And like I you know I've seen other cases of of you know like men who are insecure who will use money to try to get with women and then that also doesn't solve the problem because you're using your money to get the woman and it's not clear whether she likes you for
(1:25:59) any other reason than that and things like that. So I I I don't I don't think that the statement is true. I think that if you look at, you know, data on it, having more money is more likely to you're more likely to be positively disposed towards someone if they're financially secure or rich. Like that's absolutely the case.
(1:26:23) >> There's a concept of hypergami. >> Then there's a concept of a lot of match making agencies I speak to, >> okay? and they run like this arranged marriage institute sort of the number one demand for a women is I want somebody who's xyz income. Okay. So that's one. Yeah. Then then there's the concept of hypergami.
(1:26:46) And then there's a lot of social media chatter where it's almost perceived that women only want really really high net worth individual or high status men. Okay. So let me ask you this. What percentage of women end up marrying a non-rich non high status man? >> Most of them. >> Absolutely. So, how do you reconcile those two things? Right.
(1:27:17) So, there's what women want and what they say they want and then there's what they do. Those are like really separate. So, I think there's some big problems with like the the red pill, manosphere, black pill research stuff. And the biggest problem with all this research is all of the research that it ignores. So, if you look at like what affects who you end up with, there's a good chance that your attachment style affects things way more than your net worth or your status.
(1:27:50) So, I I I saw this really cool website where someone had collected all of these resources, scientifically reviewed, I mean, peer-reviewed scientific publications on things that support red pill and black pill. And that's great. Like, all that stuff is true, right? Let's say, but the problem is that there's 10,000 or 100,000 papers that are not on there that say something else.
(1:28:16) So it's fine that people say like oh women want the fine I mean you know I want all kinds of things but that's not the decisions that that I make that's not how my life ends up so and even then like this is where we use want like a monolithic term but like we were I was explaining to you you know want is only one phase of a relationship and there's different kinds of wants.
(1:28:39) >> Yeah. >> Right. So if if you ask someone, you know, like, you know, men want jobs that make them $20 million a year. That's not fine. Cool. Like, I want a job that makes me $20 million a year, but that's not the job that I have and it's not the job I'm not going to reject jobs that make me less than 20 million.
(1:29:06) even if I want to 20 and I I'll be perfectly happy with a job that makes me $5 million a year. Right? [laughter] So, so this is why there there's just some weird like cognitive failures with like all of this thinking. >> But aren't you then perpetually sad or like just feeling that you've not gotten what you want >> potentially? If you're someone whose sadness or happiness depends on getting what you want, sure.
(1:29:36) >> But then you're screwed for all kinds of other reasons. Cuz this is terrible. That's a terrible way to live life. If my happiness, and I know that's the way a lot of people think it needs to be live, but just think about it for a second. If my happiness depends on getting what I want, what determines whether I get what I want? I'm asking you there's so many things which determines whether I get but far and large I would put it efforts and luck what percentage do you think each one is >> a 1% effort 99% luck
(1:30:16) >> absolutely right so let's say we're talking about happiness in relationships if I'm happy if my happiness requires me to get who I want to date. The biggest influence in that is the person that I want to date. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> The ones. So, what I'm doing is I'm surrendering my happiness to the world around me.
(1:30:41) >> Like, Raj, you know, I've talked about my wife because I I love her so much, but I have a confession to make. What I really wanted to do was date Cleopatra. That's who I wanted to marry. I'm screwed. Right. So this is where and this is the problem like we we've we've talked about this sort of you know this dopamineergic love.
(1:31:01) And the other thing is like wanting is not love. Want getting what you want is not happiness or a stable relationship or fulfillment. Wanting is just wanting. It's a desire. It comes from the nucleus. It's driven by dopamine. >> What we want and you kind of said like you you you have basically everything that you want but you're dissatisfied.
(1:31:22) Right. So satisfaction is a completely different neurotransmitter, completely different parts of the brain. We're talking about things like serotonin. That's where contentment comes from. And serotonin is not about what you're attracted to. So I'll give you a simple example. You know, if I climb to the top of a mountain, that's a lot of effort and it's not even pleasant, but I'm going to feel great at the end of it.
(1:31:49) Even though I feel terrible, I'm going to feel great. That's serotonin. M. >> So when it comes to healthy relationships, when it comes to being happy in a relationship, the really lucky people learn how to preserve some of that dopamineergic element and and that's why like, you know, we get we we go on vacations and we go out for Valentine's Day and stuff like that because we get overwhelmed by life and we're like changing diapers and stuff.
(1:32:15) So you need a little bit of time to recreate those circumstances so that the the spark can can catch again, right? People don't realize that like when people say like, you know, it's so sad people say marriages require work, but no one ever tells you what kind of work. Communication is the the the the secret to a successful marriage.
(1:32:36) But what do you say? When do you say it? No one ever tells you [laughter] that stuff, right? So, I'll give you like just a simple example of that and I'll we'll kind of get back to what you were saying. My wife and I stumbled on something that's really great. >> When we don't want the same or when we we're trying to figure out like what we're going to do like say what are we going to eat tonight? We rank things from 1 to 10.
(1:32:55) >> You want Thai food? What is it on a scale of 1 to 10? It's a seven. I'm at like an 8.5 for pizza. >> It's such a simple communication thing and it's helped our marriage so much because without that it's like I want Tai. Well, I want pizza. And then you just Well, how much do you want it? Okay.
(1:33:12) Oh, so you really want it? I didn't realize that. >> This is like a nine out of 10. >> It's so easy, but it like has helped our marriage so much. We've also separated out we like this is a want versus this is like a should. >> Like I really want to go out with these people. We we really should go out with these people.
(1:33:32) Okay, this is not something. So we we call it a want token or a want card. She's like, I'm playing a want card. This is something that I want. This is not a want. I'm not spending a want card with this. This is like these people took care of your kids when they were sick, so we should go out to dinner with them.
(1:33:47) I'm not This is not like my friends cuz I'm like, "Oh, I'm doing it for you. I'm not doing it for you. You're doing it for your kid." So, being able to like tease these things apart helps a lot. >> You mentioned red pill and black pill. >> Yeah. >> Explain that for my Indian audience. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Red pill, black pill, and then there's red pill 2.0.
(1:34:05) >> Uh, sure. And then then there's our community which is pink uh green pill. >> Okay. >> But okay, so a couple years ago there's this movie called The Matrix. And there's a scene in the Matrix where I I forget the guy. He's got he holds out his hands and he's got a a blue pill and a red pill.
(1:34:26) And Neo, who's the the the hero of the movie, he tells him, "Okay, you've got two choices. You can take the blue pill and you can continue to live in your elucory word world or you can take the red pill and you can understand the true nature of things. So it was a group of people I think this started with sort of the pickup artists and then this evolved into something called red pill where people sort of thought that okay relationships are like we have all these rules for relationships but that's not real.
(1:34:53) That's like the fake that's like you know this this pretend world or it's a scam. It's a conspiracy. They're not giving you the real information. If you want to be successful, you need to take the red pill and you need to wake up >> from this dream of what relationships this this Cinderella story of you meet and you fall in love and then you make the sacrifice and she stays with you forever. That's all a lie.
(1:35:15) >> The truth of the matter, you have to wake up to the harsh reality of the world. So that philosophy is kind of red pill, which is this idea that a lot of our ideas around relationships are not how they work. And a lot of it is men helping men navigate relationships. Then there was an evolution called >> what's the fundamental uh principle what what men help other men help with.
(1:35:40) What's the fundamental truth here? >> Um so I think there are a couple features of it. One is that there's a very in my opinion and I think most people who are knowledgeable would agree very poor understanding of biology that is applied to dating. >> So a great example of this is like there's this concept of an alpha male and then the alpha gets the women >> and then the beta males don't get the women.
(1:36:10) And the funny thing is the person who even coined the term alpha wolf and alpha male spent the rest of his career trying to explain to people that you guys are like misunderstanding. This is not how this works. So even the concept is like fundamentally flawed. That's not how people work.
(1:36:27) I think the biggest mistake which I feel like 99% confident is like a huge scientific error is they they make assumption. They talk about men and women, but the truth of the matter is you can't generalize men and women. There there are so many individual genetic, personality, upbringing, social conditioning aspects that you can't say women behave this way and men behave this way.
(1:36:54) But they they use some research and they extrapolate they don't understand anything about the methodology of studies. So like you they'll they'll cite these things like women are responsible for 70% of divorce. Um but they don't know what the difference between like a actually here's a good example. They they cite a lot of studies on surveys.
(1:37:15) >> So they'll ask people what do women want, right? So women want rich men. Fine. That's different from what do women choose? that like those are different things and and they they muddle together all of these concepts. So, I think that there's a lot of scientific um illiteracy actually.
(1:37:37) And I know I'm not trying to piss red people off, but it's like that's really what it is. So, I I have this, you know, sometimes when I talk about red pill stuff, you guys can maybe cut to this, but there's I have a a textbook on my shelf called the Cambridge Handbook of Personal Relationships, >> and it's like a thick text, >> okay? and it's like full of scientific studies about how relationships actually work. They don't know any of that stuff.
(1:38:00) They never talk about any of this stuff. They never even address it. So, they tend to generalize way too much. Um I think they also have some of these ideas that like like the weirdest thing about it is the worst uh perpetrators don't give women like agency. Like they don't understand that women make choices and they're like conscious human beings who decide things.
(1:38:24) They're like, "Okay, here's what the biology of women is." >> Yeah. >> And and the the statements that they make in isolation are correct. I think the extrapolations they make, the interpretation of the data is where they go way off. So they'll say things like, you know, a a woman has a greater investment because if she has sex, then she becomes pregnant and that like that's a more a greater biological investment than a man because a man can disappear and he's not doesn't have to deal with the consequences.
(1:38:50) And that kind of stuff is true. So sometimes you know the good people I think understand some science but fundamentally they don't understand science. >> Um and then they have other kind of ideas like women pick men who are tall, pick men who are this they basically treat women like they're bots that have been programmed to select for certain things and there's really [clears throat] no room for individuality.
(1:39:14) >> They have other kinds of like philosophies. I think uh I've worked with a lot of men who are red pillars and things like that. I I think the common thing that I see is that there's usually a traumatic experience with a woman early on and then they the way that they respond to that trauma. Um and and and traumatic experience with a woman can sometimes be because the woman was mean to them and did cheat on them or whatever, took advantage of them.
(1:39:39) >> Um sometimes it's like a little bit more in their head where like a woman >> the real trauma is that this woman that I fell in love with didn't notice me >> and that's sometimes enough. So once I have a traumatic experience with a woman, I join a red pill community where other people are sharing their traumatic experiences with women.
(1:39:58) And now every story I read about women is talking about how women are untrustworthy. So now like 100% now I start to believe and I don't blame red pill people for this, right? Cuz now oh my god, I thought it was just me, but it turns out it's everyone. It's not everyone. All the people who are successfully in red pill for uh successfully in relationships are not in red pill spaces for the most part. Okay.
(1:40:26) Um and then there are other things like if you look at places like Reddit and you post something that goes against the narrative of the red pill, you'll get downvoted, >> right? [laughter] >> So, so there's like a selection where they're they're literally removing contrary information. >> Then there's black pillars and black pillars believe that it's hopeless.
(1:40:48) >> [laughter] >> So they're they're maybe nihilistic. I I don't really know. But they just basically believe they've like given up and they don't believe that relationship success is ever possible. Um and then on our in our community someone >> why do they believe so? >> Uh very similar things.
(1:41:04) So maybe some traumatic experience and then they look at some of this research and they say okay like women want men who make this much money who are who are this tall. I'm a 5 foot2 manllet who's unemployed and and their psychology I think is a little bit different. I mean I'm generalizing now too but they tend to have you know a lot of like depressive characteristics just have a lot of hopelessness very poor self-image.
(1:41:29) So there's almost like a fork in the road >> where if you have a traumatic experience, which can even be just like crippling isolation and loneliness, which I don't blame people for. >> If you're like if you get pissed and resentful and you start to cultivate anger, this is something people don't realize.
(1:41:50) The antidote to depression is anger. So depression will keep me still. Anger will get me moving. So Freud noticed this and he said that depression is anger turned against the self. So when I'm depressed, I have a lot of self-hatred, self-loathing. I'm pathetic. I'm a loser. I should kill myself. I don't belong on this planet. Right? So there's a there's a very big relationship between anger and depressed or or anger and sadness.
(1:42:15) So if I respond to that depression with anger, that motivates me to change my life. M >> or I let that depression turn into self-loathing and then I kind of go down the road of of black pill. So that can happen a lot. So they have very poor confidence. So I I I think that there's a lot here that you know I think the other real challenge here is that if we look at how to rehabilitate people, you can't ostracize them.
(1:42:43) So when you like kick someone out, they're not going to get better. So what tends to happen is a lot of this language gets punished. And I'm not saying that that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that the psychological effect of kicking someone out of society where they >> you ostracize them, you send them off to an island where you send all of the other people who hate women.
(1:43:04) Like what do you think is going to happen? >> So what we see in our community, which was scary for a little while, is like >> a clash between incelss and women. and they both come to our community for like to learn about themselves. And then it's really touching. I I remember a post that was awesome because like a woman was like, "I'm a conventionally attractive woman.
(1:43:25) I'm like a 10 out of 10. I can get laid whenever I want to and I'm like I feel so lonel so lonely. I'm like I feel crippling loneliness. I can have sex, but people use me for my body." Like they don't see a person, they see an object. And then they started describing their feelings. And then incelss were like, "This is insane. This is how I feel.
(1:43:47) " And then it was like I'd never imagined a place where a supermodel and an incel would connect on an empathic level. But I I think there's like isolation and loneliness is something that kind of we can all feel, but they absolutely do get radicalized, which I think was your your question. Yeah. >> And then there's the third community, which is the green pill, you would think.
(1:44:06) >> Yeah. And I think that's just like this kind of stuff, right? So understanding that hey you can work on yourself and that's another thing that people will say a lot like you should work on yourself. The question is how? >> Yeah. >> So I think the biggest mistake people make there is people say okay you should work on yourself and people will say okay that means I need to go to go to the gym get a job.
(1:44:25) Working on yourself is depends on you is highly individualized. So you know it's not something that is generic. Like going to the gym is a great part of it but you should really ask yourself like what are my problems right? What do I struggle with? where is my lack of confidence coming from? And and so the what we try to espouse is like first of all there's science to be understood.
(1:44:47) Secondly, like you should understand your own mind. You should understand what drives you, where desire comes from. Um and and often times what's scary, right, is that even when people do it right, they don't end up happy. M and so one of the things that I'll see with red pillars is like they're they're able to get laid but then they're they're not able to form what they really crave.
(1:45:09) So there's a couple of dynamics here. One is that when you [clears throat] select when you believe women are transactional and all they want is your money and this is a trade of like money for sex or whatever. The women who are looking for a genuine relationship won't date you. So then all of your experience is with women who are also transactional which will then make reinforce your belief that women are just looking for money because all the ones who are looking for something else aren't going to date you.
(1:45:40) >> Right? So there's little things like this with their selection biases that they don't really think about. Um and then the really scary thing is that often times they'll get laid but then like then they they they're kind of trapped because what they really want is emotional connection. They want someone who will be with them forever, not just for money.
(1:46:00) But now they've created a situation where they're afraid of being rejected. They're afraid of being vulnerable. They're afraid of being taken advantage of. And what they're really what's really hard for them is taking a risk. >> Yeah. >> Cuz what's really scary is that like a committed romantic relationship is like a huge risk.
(1:46:19) And you don't know how this person is going to respond. >> Yeah. And I think the real reason we're not seeing relationships is because people don't know how to stomach risk anymore. Everyone wants guarantees. We want chat GPT to tell us how to do this. We want to be sure. We want to know, right? We want to like, think about this.
(1:46:36) And you know who's responsible for this is Amazon. Amazon did something really great and really terrifying, >> right? >> They gave us reviews. See, I remember when I was growing up, I would go to the store and I would see video games and I didn't know if the game was good or bad. I got this game that was a Silver Surfer.
(1:46:58) It was a terrible game and I I bought it and I didn't know what it was. And now we have Amazon that tells us ahead of time whether we're going to like it or not. There's no risk to buying anything anymore, right? Which on the one hand is great. So we're starting to mitigate risk, mitigate risk, mitigate risk.
(1:47:16) We can't tolerate risk anymore. >> Like how can men go talk to women and then even though there are women? >> Okay. So let me ask you Raj, >> what's wrong when nothing seems to work? Right. So for for one person I have a problem. I do something. Problem solved. >> Another person >> I try this. Even though the solution should work, it doesn't. I try this.
(1:47:43) The solution should work. It doesn't. Try this. Solution should work. It doesn't. What's the problem? >> Nothing. >> What do you mean nothing's the problem? Well, clearly something's the problem, right? >> But they can try another way. Like I mean, >> so you've tried three things. >> Yeah. But it's still not working. >> It's still not working.
(1:47:59) >> So they are the problem. >> Yes. So here's the first thing. See, when I ask for a solution, what people give me is something that exists outside of this. >> They say, "Go do this. Go do this. Go do this. Go do this." What's the common element? It's you. Now, the problem is that when you say that, people think, "Oh my god, I'm screwed.
(1:48:25) I'm the problem." As if that's not fixable. Like, hold on a second. Which problem do you have the most control over? It's actually this one. I can't control you at all. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this causes people so much suffering. Trying to get my narcissistic parent to understand me. Not going to happen. Trying to get my boss to give me credit and stop taking my credit.
(1:48:59) Maybe there's some stuff you can do, but this is where like it's so interesting because when you say like if you're the problem, we make it sound like that's the end. No, that's not the end. That's actually the easiest problem to solve. We just don't know how to solve it. So, I see this a lot where people look at solutions as actions >> outside of them.
(1:49:19) But the whole reason, you know, it's interesting. I was I was looking at uh our content director sent me some interesting tweets where someone was like, "It's so hard to meet people." And then someone else is like, "It's really easy. I just went out there and I met people and I did it." And then there was a huge Twitter war of some people being like, some women, women and men being like, "Yeah, you should just put yourself out there. It'll be fine.
(1:49:38) " Other people being like, "I put myself out there. That doesn't work." And so if the action is the same, right, but it works for some people and doesn't work for other people, the difference is in the person. So I think this is where like like you know the solution is not just go to sport and I've seen that plenty of times too where people are like I tried following all the advice none of it works you need to do an internal action right what about sport works for some people and doesn't work for you why isn't this working for you what is your
(1:50:13) internal feeling when you start playing sports like how do you feel >> right for some people it is a circumstantial problem but their personality is already the right Okay. And other people like you have to fix the personality which also can be done like literally we have you know treatments for narcissistic personality disorder. So we can modify personality.
(1:50:35) Second thing is you know I think friend-zone is like a really really great staging ground for success. So everyone gets frustrated by friend-zone but they're not looking at it the the right way. There's a different way to look at it. One of the safest signals for another woman is to have female friends. >> One of the best ways to meet women is to have female friends.
(1:51:02) Hey, is there anyone you can set me up with? [laughter] Right? And if you've got 10 female friends, you be like, "Hey, it's time to do project alloc. Project alloc me a girlfriend by the end of 2026. You guys tell me what to do. Like, let's do it. Please, can I have your help? And this is where we get to another part of the fix.
(1:51:25) This is >> a lot of people think that saying this is low value and they'll be looked down upon >> by who? >> By the female friends, by the people. A lot of people don't reach out. I've seen this. >> Yeah. I mean, so so let's understand >> some sort of shame if they say this because they then they look like losers. >> Okay.
(1:51:48) If someone's afraid that I'm going to be looked down upon, first thing you have to understand is that the person you're going to be looked down upon by is you. You look down upon. I don't want to be the loser who has to get my friends to find me a girlfriend. I want to be a man who walks into a room and girlfriends find me. Other people can.
(1:52:20) I mean, Raj, do people look down on you? >> Sure they do. >> I don't think so. [laughter] >> I They must. Maybe you're really special. I don't know. >> Of course they do. Yeah. I'm just saying I don't let that get to my head. >> Exactly. So So there's a difference. So people say the problem isn't that people will look down on you.
(1:52:38) First of all, the most important person is yourself. And if you look down on it, that's what you need to fix. Why are you trying to go and control the opinions of others? Oh my god, that's a terrible idea. Why don't you change your own self opinion? And then something cool will happen. All kinds of people will, I'm sure, look down on me and I'm sure look down on you.
(1:52:58) This, okay, people will will look down on me. The way to solve that isn't to change so that people stop look looking down on you. It is to change so that you don't care if some people look down on you. Let them. Why are you going to let it ruin your life? >> Yeah. >> If someone wants to think less of you, like does this water taste any different? No.
(1:53:21) Do I go to sleep any different? Like not really, unless I torture myself around it. When I eat a piece of cake, does it taste different? No. The majority of my life is exactly the same. The only thing that changes is my thoughts. And there may be a certain practical thing like if I want that person to date me, then arguably that's important.
(1:53:38) >> Yeah. >> But that too doesn't work because if I want this person to date me and I don't want them to look down on me, you can go chasing that for they've tried, right? And it doesn't work. >> So it's it's time to change your thinking and realize that if you're afraid that other people are looking down on you, that only happens if you have a lack of selfworth.
(1:53:56) >> True. The way the value that you place in other people's opinions is inversely correlated with your own self-worth, which means the lower your self-worth, the more important the opinions of others. The higher your self-worth, right? Worth comes from yourself or other people. One of the two.
(1:54:16) That's not really true, but anyway, for this purpose, it's fine. So, I think that's why so I think there's a there's a there's an issue within that person that needs to be resolved. And the reason I come to that answer is because those are the people that I work with, right? Because the people who can start sport and then do fine, they don't come to me.
(1:54:32) It's all the people who the solutions don't work for that we have to work with. >> Yeah. >> And I really think this friend-zone thing is like if you've got if you get friend-zoned like work with those people, but that feels shaming. >> Yeah. >> Right. That's not I want to be an alpha. And it's like then you got to really ask yourself what's more important.
(1:54:49) Do you want to be an alpha or do you want to have a healthy and successful relationship? True. That's a good way to put up. You You were sharing ingredients of falling in love, right? You said >> unplanned meetup conversations, shared emotion, dopamine, and then shared emotion. And then there was >> common cause is another one.
(1:55:16) So like when you guys have a shared goal that you work towards like that can that's not the same as shared emotions but those tend to be the the most important factors. Those are like the chemical recipe for love. >> Do you think you can plan this and plant this in order to make someone fall in love with you like let's say you're going out on a date >> probably.
(1:55:40) So like let's say you're going out on a date and you plan it in a way that you will elevate some sort of emotion because you'll only go to dates which are which will cause a certain level of emotional roller coaster. >> I think so. And then you'll be this inconsistent. >> I I think so. I think so. So I know this sounds kind of like scary to say like cuz people are like oh my god like this guy's asking can you make people fall in love with you? That's what you're asking, right? And this is where like I think if we're being honest, Yes. And I know that sounds
(1:56:12) insane, but I want you to think about this for a second. There's some people that are very good at it. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's some people that like some people, a lot of people fall in love with like you know these people that they're like tornadoes. >> Like they enter your life and you're like, "Oh my god.
(1:56:31) " >> Yeah. >> And then they leave your life and you're like, "Oh no." And then they enter someone else's life. They just leave a trail of destruction behind them. I know these people, right? [laughter] We all know these people. And and this the really interesting thing is is um there's even some diagnosis that explain this stuff.
(1:56:49) So there's a diagnosis called borderline personality disorder. >> And the thing one of the diagnostic features of borderline personality disorder is a history of intense and unstable relationships. These people fall really hard in love. other people fall really hard in love with them and then it falls apart and then it happens again and it falls apart and then this this person and that person so you know they really struggle and there's a lot that we can go into there but um so yeah I mean I I I think and I think that other people also get better at dating
(1:57:21) right so as you improve in these skills the likelihood that you succeed in a relationship that has genuine love actually increases. I think this is a skill. So is is scary and like oh my god, can you trick someone? I I think that yeah, I think you can get better. I don't know if you can like trick someone or force someone to fall in love with you, but I I literally like my day job is like okay, let's work on these factors and work on authenticity.
(1:57:50) Um there's also like you know scientific analysis of charisma. So like there's there's scientific analysis of ick. >> Like what is the ick? How do we break that apart? Um there's scientific analysis of charisma, there's scientific analysis of falling in love. And so like like recently what we've decided to do is is uh Kuthie was telling me like hey you got to put this all together.
(1:58:15) [laughter] What is the scientific way of charisma? >> Um so it's a couple of different things. So first is there's one large non-scientific element and then there's a lot of scientific elements. But even you here's what I mean. First thing about charisma is that all kinds of different disciplines study charisma. If you look at academic publications on charisma, the second highest volume of publications is actually uh publications on religion.
(1:58:48) So the study of religion, the study of charisma looks at things like Jesus Christ or Buddha or Jon of Arc or like um you know there were uh who's um I'm blanking on their name jet lag is kicking in but there was uh Orabind though so right so he's like a spiritual master who's also like a freedom fighter >> so like you can look at these so something about Chris there's something special with religion and charisma, but we're going to set that to aside because most scientists will acknowledge this, but we don't know how to study that or it's hard to study. So,
(1:59:22) then there's the that the non weird spiritual stuff, but that doesn't mean that the spiritual stuff is false. It just means that it's harder to understand. It involves like Shaki and this other weird stuff. Okay, >> the non-spiritual stuff first is having a vision. So, what people are attracted to is having a vision.
(1:59:42) So this is where like you know a lot of people think okay I need a certain amount of money or I need to be tall. That's not really what you need. If you think about what the reason I think my wife one of the reasons she stayed with me cuz I was just like broke for 3 years and post college and didn't have a job and whatever is because like she could tell that I I had like I was going somewhere.
(2:00:00) I was I was having trouble but I'd done this like yoga sadhana and was going to be a monk and then like I like she could tell I was going somewhere. >> So having a vision for your life. So, it doesn't mean that you have to be successful. It just means you have to know where you're going instead of just screwing around.
(2:00:17) And knowing where you're going can also be like a, "Hey, I'm working on it and here are the ways that I'm working on it." So, I'll give you just a quick kind of tangent. So, you know, one of the problems I see a lot in relationships is people will say like, "I need time, right? I'm not ready yet. >> I'm not ready to get married.
(2:00:35) I'm not ready. I'm not ready." >> Which is fine. >> Yeah. And people like, "Oh, should I break up with this person or not? Dr. K, what should I do?" It's like, you don't need to break up. I I don't think that's the wrong question. What you should figure out is what is the process of getting ready, not when are you going to get ready, what are your steps to get ready, what is what are you doing to get ready? And often times people are not willing to answer that or figure that out, right? So, it's like it's fine that you're not ready. Totally fine. We
(2:01:02) should be patient, but what's your plan to get to ready? Like, what are you going to investigate? what are you going to research? What are you going to do? So in that way like vision doesn't h have you have to don't have to sort out your life but you can say like hey this is what I'm interested in this is what I'm working on here's what I'm excited about right it doesn't have to be fixed it just needs to be a clear idea of where you even want to go which can be done through internal work so vision is a huge part of it
(2:01:29) second part is the ability to articulate [clears throat] >> so you have to be good at talking because that's how people that's how they understand your vision and if you just look at the research on it. Like it's hard to be charismatic if you're not clear spoken. >> Yeah. >> Um another ability another important uh uh aspect of charisma is the ability to handle adversity.
(2:01:55) So who is a leader? A leader is who you turn to in times of crisis. >> Yeah. >> So that can be broken down into all kinds of fascinating things like um even things like emotional regulation, EQ, how do you handle problems? I I love uh so what I really love about Mandarin and and Japanese kanji is there the word for crisis is danger plus opportunity.
(2:02:20) >> So it's not a >> so it's bad and it's good. >> Yeah, >> right. >> Um so I I think those are three of the really big elements. There are other things. The really interesting thing I I have a video about it, but what's really interesting is that physical attraction is on there, but it's pretty low on the list.
(2:02:37) It's outweighed by all of these other things, right? So people I think it's like number six in terms of like the importance of it. So everyone thinks that oh I have to be attractive to be charismatic. Actually you don't. It helps but it's not as important as vision, the ability to handle problems and being clear spoken and being able to articulate.
(2:02:55) Those are the three biggest things. >> Oh actually and then the fourth biggest thing is like being divine connection to divinity is actually a scientifically. So if you do you know multivariant analysis on charismatic people connection to something spiritual is a part of it. >> True that it makes sense. >> Yeah. One last question.
(2:03:23) Yeah that's what's one feedback [snorts] for me. How can I do this better? >> [laughter] >> Okay. You can be brutally honest. >> I'm not going to be brutally honest. I'm going to be cruel. >> Okay. Wow. [laughter] I'm scared, bro. You should be. >> You can do this better by doing it exactly the same and not improving.
(2:03:56) [laughter] >> Don't Don't do it better. Just just do it. Do it exactly the same. [clears throat] >> Why would you say so? You you should be critical about it, right? Like that that there must be the missing element. >> Yeah. I I'm not I don't know if you're I I have a feeling that your audience may understand what I said better than you do.
(2:04:21) What did you hear me say >> that? Do exactly what you're doing. >> Yes. Is that hard for you? >> Very. [laughter] >> So that will help you do it better. Right. So things that will help you do it better are going to be hard. >> Yeah. >> This is the dimension that you need to grow. [laughter] Like I go up every day and try to be like, "Okay, >> this is what I need to change.
(2:04:44) This is what I need to do." >> I warned you it was going to be cruel. >> Ah, interesting. Good play. [laughter] Like that. you kind of you're impressed but you're like yeah like [laughter] >> you asked for it man. >> Yeah because that's the staying the same is the hardest thing for me because you're absolutely right.
(2:05:06) >> Yeah. >> So if you if you really want to grow you need to stop growing. [laughter] >> You know you're like the sixth guest who has given the same feedback. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm like, and all these six people I like really rank high in my life. Yeah. So, I mean, that's something, right? Cuz I I don't think I don't This is where like once again, I'll say like I like I'm I'm accomplished in certain ways, but I'm not like I mean, I think it's pretty clear if if you understand people.
(2:05:41) And the other nice thing the the really nice thing Raj is that you come across like there's a lot of like you that like enters the room. So it's it's like you're kind of shouting it from the rooftop. So it's not like some you know secret divination kind of thing. I I I think you know you're you're hungry for this.
(2:06:02) And I think especially my guess is that most people who said this to you are people who are both accomplished and older. >> Yeah. And and so I think at some point we realize the value of like chasing >> and the shortcomings of chasing >> and that like you can still do great but you don't have to like torture yourself. >> So it was an incredible experience but I'm genuinely very happy that you did it. Thank you so much.
(2:06:28) Thank you for >> I'm going to see you again. We'll do next episode as well. Maybe when I'm traveling to US or you're here. >> Thank you so much for doing this. >> Thanks Raj. >> Thank you so much. Episode number one. Number two. and number three episode. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep
(2:07:13) figuring out [music] [music] >> [music]
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