Emotional Intelligence Expert: How To Never Be Bothered By Anyone, Dealing With Feeling
Author Name:Relearn
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@Relearnwithkash
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=900rYox3Jsg
Title: Emotional Intelligence Expert: How To Never Be Bothered By Anyone, Dealing With Feeling
Author Name: Relearn
Description: Yale professor, Founding Director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and bestselling author of Permission to Feel, Dr. Marc Brackett sits down with Kash to break down the hidden mechanics of human emotion, showing you how to master emotional regulation, break free from self-sabotage, and build unshakeable mental strength.
Get Your Copy Of 'Dealing With Feeling' Here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250329590?...
00:00 - Introduction & The Power of Emotional Intelligence
01:18 - Why Emotions Matter: Attention, Decisions, and Health
04:01 - The RULER Framework: Recognizing & Understanding Emotions
06:36 - Unpacking Anger, Disappointment, and Shame
09:25 - Labeling, Expressing, and Cultural Display Rules
12:28 - Regulation: Overcoming Emotional Activation
16:19 - Scheduling & Parking Emotions in Difficult Times
17:28 - Permission to Feel & Reframing Anxiety
21:08 - Bridging Imagination and Creative Execution
23:12 - Deactivating the Nervous System Through Breathwork
27:05 - Taking Space & Tapping Into Your Best Self
31:53 - Choosing the High Road & Setting Healthy Boundaries
36:30 - Gaslighting, Negative Self-Talk, and Cognitive Reframing
41:11 - The Observe vs. Absorb Technique
43:20 - Never Worry Alone: Finding Emotional Allies
46:54 - Hard Skills vs. Soft Skills in Workplace Leadership
51:37 - Developing Relational Trust and Showing Appreciation
54:01 - Scaling Emotional Education in Schools
56:11 - Evaluating Emotional Coping Mechanisms
58:35 - The Physical Toll of Suppressing Emotions
01:02:44 - Role Modeling Healthy Regulation for Children
01:06:10 - Navigating Conflict with Compassionate Questioning
01:08:47 - The Role and Limits of AI in Emotional Support
01:12:15 - How to Be a Steady Presence for Loved Ones
01:14:51 - Mislabeling Emotions: Stress vs. Envy vs. Anxiety
01:21:35 - Turning Envy into Inspiration & Gratitude
01:25:15 - Inner Balance, Mindfulness, and Emotional Presence
01:29:57 - Tackling Loneliness through Genuine Connection
01:34:38 - Building Safe Spaces & Closing Thoughts
Sponsorship/Speaking Enquiries for Relearn & Kash:
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/brands
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/speaking
Apply to be a guest on Relearn:
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/relearn
Follow Kash:
Instagram - / kashroffical
Youtube - / @kashrofficial
Linkedin - / kashrofficial
Website - https://www.kashrupareliaa.me
Follow Relearn:
Instagram - / relearnwithkash
Youtube - / @relearnwithkash
Follow Dr. Marc Brackett:
Instagram - / marc.brackett
Website - https://marcbrackett.com/
Youtube - / @marcbrackett
Sponsors:
This episode is sponsored by MINDVALLEY
A platform redefining education for the mind, body, and spirit, trusted by millions across 195 countries. One quest could change the entire trajectory of your life. If you would like access to the Mindvalley platform, please submit a request via www.kashrupareliaa.me/relearn
This podcast is being produced, managed and scaled by RISEVOICE.
A media agency turning brands into industry-leading voices through content, culture, media, and performance-driven distribution.
www.risevoice.media
Transcript:
(00:00) Professor at Yale, and you've basically spent 25 years on the one question, which is what emotions actually are and what we're supposed to do with them. >> I watched the teacher one day who just saw me being bullied and just looked away. And I just felt so unsafe. Like, no one is here to protect me. >> You said emotions pile up like a debt.
(00:16) What does that start to look like? >> It starts to look like heart problems. It starts to look like immune deficiencies. It starts to look like alcoholism. >> If someone's in a relationship and they're with a difficult partner who just doesn't get it. >> you have to leave. Emotion regulation cannot solve every life problem.
(00:34) When did empathy become a weakness? About a third of them right now are trying to create legislation to ban my work in schools. I'm convinced that this is the skill that determines whether or not people achieve their dreams. >> Professor at Yale, founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, your work has been put in 5,000 schools, impacted 10 million children.
(00:57) You've also taken the same work and put it into Fortune 100 boardrooms, hedge funds, worked in the White House. You have an app that has 3 million people using it, and you've basically spent 25 years on the one question, which is what emotions actually are and what we're supposed to do with them. Why does any of this even matter? >> Most people don't even know what emotions are.
(01:16) And it's not their fault. It's just that most of us haven't had an emotion education. Now, if I were to ask you right now, what did you learn about emotions growing up in your family? >> My dad didn't really show much emotion. >> Okay. >> My mom showed me a lot of emotion. Um but I was taught as a child men don't cry.
(01:33) >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah. >> So, what does that lead to? Suppression, denial, etc. So, my work focuses on why emotions matter. >> Mhm. >> And they matter for everything. It's kind of a trick question. >> Yeah. >> They matter for five things. And the things that I focus on are attention. So, how you feel, like right now.
(01:53) If you were bored with me, which I don't think you are. >> Yeah. >> But if you were, you would be kind of like searching like what what am I going to talk to this guy about? Like I can't wait for this to be over. So emotions drive our focus. We don't necessarily think it they do, but they do. The second is they drive our judgments and our decisions.
(02:13) So we like to think we're rational creatures. My research shows actually our emotions are underneath our choices every day. The choice to go to the gym or not to go to the gym. The choice to eat a healthy food or not eat a healthy food. The third is that they drive our relationships. So for example, if I were to sit here like this, watch my facial expression.
(02:35) >> [laughter] >> If I I just lift my nostril or if I do something like this like yeah. Just a little contemptuous expression. You're like, all right, what's up with this guy? So they drive whether we approach or avoid. The fourth is they drive our mental health and our physical health. So if you don't know how to deal with your feelings, which is the topic of my most recent research, then what happens? You allow your emotions to have power over you.
(03:02) Which then usually leads to poor mental health, poor physical health. And then the final one, which is I think a lot of people who are probably listening, is it helps with your performance. You know, as someone who has taught the smartest kids, you know, on the block for 25 years, you know, at my university everybody's got perfect test scores, they have perfect grades, and they play instruments no one ever heard of.
(03:24) And yet the question is are they all successful? And the answer is no. And so how is that possible? They're so smart. Well, think about it. For people who are highly creative, emotions are inherent in the creative process. If you don't have the skills to deal with the emotional journey, often times the imagination doesn't become a product.
(03:48) >> Interesting. Okay. >> So maybe I should just teach you the the of emotional intelligence because emotional intelligence is a set of skills that helps us to use all of our emotions wisely to achieve those great outcomes of attention, learning, decisions, relationships, performance. >> I see. >> So, the first skill is recognizing emotions.
(04:06) >> Okay. >> Really being aware of people's facial expressions, their body language, their vocal tone, their behavior. But knowing that we're not perfect at it. >> Interesting. >> So, most people grossly overestimate how skillful they are. >> I think I'm amazing, so I'm good. >> Yeah, exactly. There's the problem.
(04:21) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> So, I ask for like, on a scale from 1 to 10, how good are you at reading facial expressions? >> Um generally, I'm pretty good. Like, probably like an eight. >> All right, let's test you now. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, I'm going to make a facial expression and you're going to tell me how I'm feeling.
(04:36) >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Curious? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, I was trying to just be flat. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, you're I think you're projecting that you're like hopeful and curious. >> Yeah, well, see, that was it. Cuz I didn't get anything from that. I was like, I'm hoping he's curious. >> But that's the point.
(04:55) So, you didn't get anything out of it, but then you sort of made something up. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And we do that all the time. >> Like, why are you so angry? >> Who said I was angry? I get, for example, a lot I because I guess maybe I'm a scientist, I'm always like thinking, and people are what's wrong? >> Yeah. >> Nothing's wrong, I'm just thinking.
(05:13) But maybe my face makes weird movements when I'm thinking. So, there's self-awareness or social awareness, which is me kind of like paying attention to your facial expressions. Then there's like self-awareness, like, how am I feeling right now? >> Yeah. >> Feeling at ease, interested, curious. But there's self-awareness and social awareness. So, that's the R of ruler.
(05:32) >> Okay. >> The U is understanding emotion. So, the question is like, why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? What's causing the emotion? So, for example, I'm going to ask you now. What is the difference between anger and disappointment? >> Well, disappointment is when I wanted something and it didn't quite work out the way I hoped it would.
(05:54) It would anger then be the result of whatever I'm feeling from disappointment. What do you think? >> [laughter] >> I feel like I'm being in school again and I'm being like >> Well, I'm a professor, so. >> [laughter] >> But, um, you're 50% correct. >> Okay. >> So, disappointment is around unmet expectations.
(06:12) Like, everything is legitimate. >> Mhm. >> I want to work out. It just didn't work out. Yeah. Anger, though, is a little different cuz anger has a theme of injustice. Like, wait a minute. That was not cool. That was not fair. How could you say that? >> Mhm. >> We get angry when we perceive someone to be unfair or there's an injustice.
(06:32) >> Interesting. >> Now, why does that matter? >> I feel like if you know the difference, you know how best to operate with it. >> You're a genius. >> [laughter] >> So, that's >> exactly right. >> Yeah. >> If you don't know what you're feeling or if you're a parent or a boss, like if your kid comes home and says, "I hate school.
(06:53) " >> Mhm. >> And all of a sudden you think your kid is angry or frustrated. But, they might be feeling shame. >> Mhm. >> You don't know because you just said a minute ago, right? I grew up in a family where, you know, you don't express emotions. You know, you're taught to suppress emotions. Well, guess what? That's what boys are taught these days.
(07:11) So, what do they do? They act out. >> Mhm. >> I'm angry. I'm pissed. When they're feeling disappointment or shame or embarrassment or something else. And then we look at the behavior and we judge the behavior. Oh, you're like, "Who do you think you are?" >> Yeah. >> But, we don't get curious about the why. >> Mhm.
(07:29) >> And we can't help people unless we know the why. >> Could it be like you just referenced shame and anger? Could it be that anger's like the external and then shame is what's internal? >> Like, that's the thing. Like, shame is when we have diminished self-worth. >> Okay. >> So if I'm being bullied or someone is like really being hurtful and they're saying I'm not I have no value.
(07:51) >> Yep. >> That's shame. Now I may it may show up as anger. >> Mhm. >> But the deep emotion is shame. >> Okay. >> And we want to work with the shame not the anger. Cuz the shame is the underneath piece that needs the support. >> Mhm. >> But we tend to be superficial and we look at behavior. >> Mhm. >> And one of my big lessons is that people's behavior is not necessarily a clue to their feeling.
(08:17) >> Mhm. >> That we're taught to be in psychology it's called emotional labor. My students at Yale like they can't look like they're worried or anxious. Everybody would think they're weak or not smart enough. >> Yep. >> So they put on a face. >> Yeah. >> We do this in all different forms of work.
(08:33) Like if you're a kindergarten teacher like good morning everybody. >> Yeah. >> And it's like inside you're like I hate my job or I'm feeling so depleted but I have to like look happy. >> Yeah. >> And that labor is very debilitating for many people. >> Mhm. >> Because you go home to your family and you're like >> [snorts] >> I've been smiling all day.
(08:49) >> Yeah. >> Or if you're police officer I've been like telling people to move their car. >> Mhm. >> Point here is that until we understand what's underneath people's emotions we're not going to be able to be supportive or even uh helpful to ourselves. The shame is about the diminished self-worth. The anger is about the injustice.
(09:06) >> Mhm. Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yep. >> The disappointment is about the unmet expectation. >> Mhm. >> You might be feeling all three but each one of them might need support. If you only work with the anger you're not really helping someone build their self-esteem. >> Right. Okay.
(09:22) So it's about recognizing what really is underneath. If it is anger then so be it but there could be other things as well. Exactly. And then working on that. Okay. >> And not being tricked by the behavior. You know it's like boys stomping their feet means anger and girls crying means they're sad. Why? It's just like we we we project that onto people as like that's a whole gender bias kind of thing.
(09:43) >> Mhm. >> Labeling. That's the precision. So, anger is a family of emotions, not just one emotion. Are you peeved? Are you irritated? Are you angry? Are you livid? Are you enraged? Disappointment, like we talked about. Well, it could be just feeling sad. Disappointment, despair, hopelessness, depression. >> Okay.
(10:10) >> And then there's the happy stuff, too, by the way. >> Yeah. >> Right? You can be feeling happy, or maybe you're just pleased or content, or maybe you're elated or ecstatic. So, there's a lot of emotion granularity, we call it. >> Mhm. >> And that's the labeling piece, getting really precise about the words.
(10:25) It's a good idea, like when you wake up in the morning, just check in. It's a good idea before you have that important phone call with a client. Like, how am I feeling right now? Is my voi- vocal tone going to be congruent with the message I want? Or am I still irritated at my wife, or my kid, or my colleague? >> Yeah.
(10:42) >> All right. E is expressing emotions. So, it's knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across culture and context. >> Okay. >> So, right now we're in London. And, you know, the rules are a little bit different than New York City, where I live. >> Mhm. >> But, they're super different in Dubai, >> Mhm.
(11:02) >> or in India, or in wherever else in Central and South America. >> Mhm. >> And so, there are what we call cultural display rules around the expression of emotion, which is why, by the way, we tend to make a lot of mistakes. So, for example, I was in Myanmar a couple of years ago. >> Yeah. >> And I was doing a talk, and I finished, and I thought it was a pretty good talk.
(11:22) And all of a sudden, no movement. And I was like, okay. >> [laughter] >> And I was like, thank you. And like, hundreds of people, no one clapped. >> Oh, wow. >> No one moved, And I was like, what's going on here? And I immediately kind of went into judge mode. >> Yeah. >> Like, oh, you know, they don't think I'm a good speaker.
(11:41) >> Yeah. >> But then the person who was the head of this organization stood up and went And that gave the permission to everyone else. So, they were waiting for the authority figure to acknowledge me and they were like, okay, is this did this person enjoy it? If they did, then we can actually express. >> Right.
(11:58) >> So, that's the E. >> Yeah. >> Expressing. >> Expressing of self and also being aware of how others express to you. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> The E is more about how I express. Am I comfortable? Am I safe? >> Mhm. >> Will people listen if I share? >> Mhm. >> Um I think psychological safety is a big deal for people these days.
(12:17) >> At home, at school, at work. >> Yeah. >> And then the final R is regulation, which is, you know, this book that I just wrote called Dealing With Feeling, which is focusing on the big R, which is how do you deal with your feelings? >> Mhm. >> And what I found is that that's where most people struggle. You know, you can learn the vocabulary words, like that's not that hard.
(12:37) >> Mhm. >> So, that's pretty cognitive. >> Mhm. >> But the trick with regulation is that it's hard to apply it when you need it the most. >> Mhm. >> So, if I were to say like, go blink yourself right now, right in the middle of this recording, it would be like, what the hell's going on? >> [laughter] >> And then all of a sudden you're thinking like, all right, what am I supposed to do with this guy? He's a lunatic.
(12:58) Um and then all of a sudden you're activated. >> Mhm. >> And that's where regulation matters the most. >> I think that's probably when most people would be most curious about like, how do we figure this out? But before we get into that, I want to break down this framework that you shared. So, you spoke about getting granular with understanding these emotions.
(13:18) >> Mhm. >> To our listeners and viewers, like how does then that start to have an impact in the rest of my life by me being aware of these kind of granular emotions? >> Well, there's a phrase, you got to name it to tame it. >> Okay. >> So, when you're feeling joyful and contentment, >> Mhm. >> there's nothing to do.
(13:34) >> Mhm. >> You want to savor it. >> Yeah. >> Or you want to be with it, cuz that's probably a great emotion or set of emotions to feel during a recording. >> Mhm. >> But let's say before the recording, you got a phone call from a family member like, "Cash, you're a You're an idiot. Like, what are you doing with your life?" And you all of a sudden you feel shame.
(13:54) >> Right. >> It's going to make >> Yes. >> brain's going to be trying to cuz our brains go to solving the strongest, most unpleasant feeling. >> Yes. >> make sense? >> Mhm. >> So, if I were to get a phone call right now that someone is in the hospital, >> Mhm. >> right? I'm going to be preoccupied with that because that's a problem to deal with or to solve.
(14:13) >> Mhm. >> Um so, that's important because I remember actually giving an example. I had to give a very important speech the day after my father died. And it was really tough cuz it was like I was the only speaker at this event, and my father literally died the night before. And there were some friends of mine that said, "Mark, you just have to cancel it.
(14:37) " And it's just not in my personality to cancel something that I've committed to. >> Well. >> And I was like, "Can I do this? Can I actually get up on stage with 500 people in front of me and like deliver a good presentation?" And so, I thought about my dad. And my father would be like, "Son, go make your money.
(14:56) " >> [laughter] >> He wouldn't be like, "Don't sit on the couch and like talk about me, right? I'm dead already." >> Oh, wow. [laughter] >> I mean, I'm joking, but he wouldn't want me to wallow. >> Yeah. >> He's like, "Go be productive, you know, like do your thing. I know you love me." >> Yeah. >> And so, I didn't want to be alone.
(15:12) And so, I asked my two brothers, who's now obviously were with me. I'm like, >> Yeah. >> you know, it's a little weird, but I need you to come with me to this talk in New York City. >> Mhm. >> And I was able to like put the grief and the sadness into a little kind of box for a couple hours and then do my presentation and then I went back to my sadness and my grief afterwards.
(15:34) And I think it's a great example of how we can allow emotions to have power over us or we can use emotions wisely. It wasn't that I was denying my father's death. It was that I didn't want A, I had a job to do that I felt I was committed to. But B, it was an example of how I can park an emotion for a little while and then come back to it.
(16:02) I didn't deny, suppress cuz I did go back. And so regulation is like a multi-faceted concept. That was an example of a very specific strategy where I'm like putting an emotion here for a little while then I come back to it. >> Absolutely. So in 2020 I went through one of the biggest breakups of my life. It basically broke me in every way.
(16:22) Like I went through major anxiety, I lost a lot of weight. Um my business at the time had collapsed. So there was just a lot going on and that was basically where I started to learn how do I deal with emotion whilst living day to day? Because everyone also needed me at the same time and I needed to get back into starting a new company cuz you know, I needed to keep going.
(16:45) And so I love this idea of being able to park emotions cuz that's what I was doing in that moment. I was practicing scheduling my emotions. So I would basically feel all this pain. I'd wake up feeling this pain and I'd just be like, I'm going to deal with this at 7:00 p.m. tonight and I will journal. But for now until 7:00 p.m.
(17:00) I need to get work done. I need to wake up, I need to get on my laptop and I need to start executing. And so I'm just thinking about everyone else who's probably listening or watching. Maybe they're going through a breakup, maybe they're going through, you know, a family death or something like that. Let's break this down.
(17:14) Let's explore this. How can they regulate their emotions so they can still live life, basically. The first bucket is mindset. And this is where I think it all begins. >> Mhm. >> So, years ago, um I wrote a book called Permission to Feel, which was really an argument that I was making to the world that most people just don't give themselves permission to feel.
(17:38) >> Mhm. >> That they feel like emotions are bad or good. And the bad ones that I want to feel are the good ones that I want to just capture and keep all the time. That's not life. There are many days and there are sunny days. >> Yeah. >> So, Permission to Feel is saying, "Okay, even though I'm feeling anxiety, like, okay, what's wrong with that? Life has anxiety.
(18:03) " >> Mhm. >> Now, it's our mindset around anxiety that can make it helpful or unhelpful. If I see anxiety as debilitating, "Oh my god, I'm anxious. There's so much uncertainty around the future. What am I going to do?" >> Yeah. >> Then all of a sudden you're completely disregulated, your nervous system is activated, your brain goes into fight or flight mode, and the emotion has had power over you.
(18:24) >> Yes. >> If you reframe anxiety as "Wow, I'm anxious because I really care about the situation." >> Mhm. Game changer. >> Right? And so, I I had that happen, you know, during the pandemic. It was like crazy in my at the university, like it were closed and there was vaccines and vaxing and everybody's calling me like death threats for It was crazy.
(18:48) And, um there was a point where I'm just sort of like, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen?" >> Yeah. >> And then I realized, okay, so actually, you're anxious because you really care about the people, you know, that are working from home now. You really care about like figuring out ways to support people in dealing with their feelings.
(19:09) And that's actually what happened. I It's literally I realized uh my anxiety around my own like worries kind of about dealing with my own life. My mother-in-law had moved in by accident because um the funny story about that is that she came to visit us 2 weeks before the pandemic from Panama. >> Mhm. >> Of course on March 13th of 2020 >> Yeah.
(19:33) >> all flights canceled. >> Yeah. >> Not for March, but for April, May, June, July, August. >> Wow. >> So she got stuck with us for 7 months. And there was one night I mean it was not you know it was tough. >> [laughter] >> And she looked at me and said, "Are you really a director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?" I'm like, "Not tonight, honey. Not tonight.
(19:52) " [laughter] And it was like, "Okay." Like it was like here I was like this professor of emotional intelligence like >> Being tested. >> eliminate my mother-in-law. >> Wow. >> And it was like this we were all kind of overwhelmed and anxious. And I decided, "Okay. So I can allow that anxiety to like take over my life, all right? Or I can do what I do best which is channel that into productivity.
(20:16) " >> Mhm. >> And so I literally started like 50 studies on emotions and how were people dealing with their feelings. And it and it actually led to me writing a book. >> Incredible. >> And so I you know you can use anxiety to your advantage or you can allow it to have power over you.
(20:32) That's the permission to feel mindset piece. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's the first step. No bad emotions. Life is full with anger and happiness and contentment and frustration and overwhelm. And let's just observe it and allow ourselves to feel it. It's mostly impermanent >> Mhm. >> which is a big deal. >> Yeah, cuz we think that but when you're feeling sad you think it's going to feel sad forever.
(20:56) >> The rainy day is never going to go away. >> Yeah. >> I call that the building block for healthy regulation. But a lot of people I think forget that their emotions are either helping or interfering with their success. >> Mhm. >> And so, that's why I said earlier, it's imagination is different than a creative product.
(21:17) >> Mhm. Okay. >> [snorts] >> Like, having a creative process doesn't guarantee you're going to be successful. Yeah. How many people do we know have a rich imagination, but they can't get anything done? >> Yeah, true. >> And so, you have to What is the difference between the people who have the creative ideas and the ones who actually produce the creative product? Is they deal with the ups and downs and the roller coaster ride and the feedback and the pushback and all that stuff.
(21:39) In the America right now, my work is being politicized. Totally politicized. >> It's like Mark's woke, and Mark's trying to, you know, make kids feel empathy, which is a weakness. Like, really? When did empathy become a weakness? It's just the craziest thing. But, it's a whole agenda, which I won't get into. But, sometimes it's demoralizing.
(22:01) >> Yeah. >> And, you know, especially, um, when there are, you know, there's 50 states in America, and about a third of them right now are trying to create legislation to ban my work in schools. >> Oh, well. >> Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's become politicized, like I said. So, like, I could just say that, you know, it's over.
(22:21) >> Yeah. >> What am I going to do about this? >> Right. >> But, instead, I got a production company in Los Angeles to make a movie about it. >> Ah, okay. >> So, we're making a movie about this to showcase, all right, let's hear what the naysayers have to say, but let's also go into the classrooms and let the kids tell us what matters most to them.
(22:42) And so, then you get to decide. But, that's the that's the example of, you know, like, you could say, okay, I might as well give up, cuz like, it's all being politicized. Or, you can say, Mark, deal with the stress. >> Yep. >> Deal with the fact that half of the people in the United States don't like what you're doing right now. Yeah.
(23:00) They don't really understand it. But, how are you going to You're not going to try to, you know, fight them. I'm not going to fight back. Like that's not going to be helpful cuz then it's they're not listening. So let me just show them something. >> Mhm. >> And let them decide for themselves after they really see what it actually is as opposed to what they think it is.
(23:17) >> Going back to the strategies for emotional regulation. >> second step is clarity about the feeling. >> Okay, that's the labeling piece. >> Yeah. >> The third step is you got to know how to deactivate. >> Okay. >> You have to know how to calm your nervous system down. >> Mhm. >> Because when we have strong uh intense emotions, we have um physiological arousal, >> Mhm.
(23:41) >> right? Um the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system get out of whack. And what happens is that we go into fight, flight, freeze mode. >> Mhm. >> It's very hard to be logical when you are in threat detection mode. >> Yeah. >> So, the example I always give for this is my own kind of childhood.
(24:03) So I was a kid who was terribly bullied. Sadly I had abuse in my childhood. And um I could still to this day remember being in class, like in sixth grade or year seven. Um where kids were just being really mean, like really mean. And like drawing on my, you know, I got I used to wear like a jacket for protection.
(24:25) And these kids would like say nasty things. It's just terrible. >> Wow. >> And I watched the teacher one day who just saw me being bullied and just looked away. And I just felt so unsafe. Like no one is here to protect me. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I wasn't that tough kid. I wasn't a kid who could punch the other kid.
(24:42) Now I have a fifth degree black belt by the way. >> Nice. Yeah. >> So look out. Um but in all seriousness, when you're in that place in life, whether it's in school as a kid being bullied or in a breakup, >> Yeah. >> or at work where the pressure is so strong that you're just like freaking out at work. What happens is that you go into this kind of like survival mode.
(25:04) >> Yeah. >> You can't think clearly. >> Yeah. >> You're just you're just trying to figure out how to solve the immediate danger. >> Mhm. >> And so sometimes [clears throat] it's real danger and you need to get the hell out of there. Most of the time in life it's not. And so how do you bring the temperature down? >> Mhm.
(25:24) >> Well, you got to do it through breath work. >> Okay. >> You got to do that through kind of giving yourself that space to maybe go outside for a minute and just get distance from the person. >> Okay. >> But we have to know how to control or manage our nervous systems. If we don't do that, that's why most parents for example, they're like, "I just can't deal with this anymore.
(25:43) " You can deal with it. You know, my mother was this way. I would come up, "I hate school. Who do you think you are?" >> Yeah. >> You know, she'd immediately retaliate. >> Right. >> Because all of a sudden I think what was happening in my mom's head was "I failed my kid, you know." >> Ah. And so then she becomes activated. >> And then she couldn't help me.
(26:01) "Get to your room. Go to your room. [clears throat] Get out of my face." It was basically like either like yell at me to calm down. >> Right. >> It's like, "Wait a minute. I'm being bullied. Why should I" >> Yeah. >> Or like send me to my room. >> Yeah. >> And so my point there is that if my mother for example had had the skill to be like, "Okay, wait.
(26:19) My kid is really pushing my limits right now. >> Yeah. >> But my kid is just a kid. Mhm. I'm actually his mother. Let me take some breaths to bring it down so I can connect." >> Mhm. >> See what I'm getting at? >> We'd have a different society if that were >> We would have a really different society. That's my goal.
(26:36) >> Yeah. >> Um so that's the deactivation pieces. Now, people do that in a variety of ways. Um there's breath work, there's mindfulness, there's meditation. >> Yeah. >> And it you know, there's no one way. I think it's important to know that. Some people like certain breathing exercises, some people don't. >> Yeah.
(26:54) >> Just find the one that works best for you. >> I want to bring all of this to a practical level like that. So, someone's for example just had an argument with their spouse. And in the moment, they're struggling to like regulate. What do they do? >> So, what they do is many things. Um and that's the that's the beauty of this work is that it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.
(27:15) >> Mhm. >> Um it depends if it's an intense argument, you got to get out of the situation. Cuz you're not going to do a good job in that moment. You need to say, "Honey, I love you. Now is not the time. I cannot process. I need space." >> Mhm. And that's the from your framework, that's deactivated. >> Yes. >> Mhm.
(27:32) >> You have to you have to get yourself the space. You can try hard, it's not going to go well. >> Mhm. >> You're just your brain is not in that reflective mode. And so, sometimes and it's hard for people to do this. Like, "Can you please just give me 5 minutes? I'm just not in a good place right now." >> Mhm.
(27:48) >> You know, I know I'm going to say things that I'm going to regret. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to take some space. >> Mhm. >> And you go outside. And you take a breath. You walk around the house. You take a walk to the coffee shop. And you just give yourself that breathing room to just bring the temperature down.
(28:04) And you can also think about something that I call the best version of you. Who is the person that I want to return to that house? Is it the who's aggressive? Or is it the listener who is compassionate? >> I love that. Yeah. >> And you have to work it's it's effortful. It's takes work. But it works. And it's this is what I do.
(28:25) We call that a meta moment. >> Mhm. >> Where you build the space between the stimulus and the response. And then that space, you have a choice. This is after Victor Frankl's work called a book Man's Search for Meaning. He was a you know, obviously in a concentration camp. And so, he talks about this idea of this space between, you know, the trigger and the reaction or the helpful response.
(28:51) But people need to know what to do in that space. So when you're in that example you just gave, so all of a sudden now the trigger is boom, reaction as opposed to thoughtful response. So to build the thoughtful response you need the pause button. Right. You need the breath work. You need to get some distance yep so that you can and then access the compassionate caring self as opposed to the triggered angry self.
(29:18) That's a lot of the work I do. Yeah. Actually just to on my website I have a whole worksheet for this for people. It's just markbrackett.com and there's like a whole like you can take your workplace problem, any family problem and like work through the meta moment process. There's like different steps.
(29:34) The first step is to just be aware of the situation. The second step is to know how to pause. The third is to see your best self yep and then the fourth is to use the strategies that I've been sharing with you on how to apply that to your best self because your best self will guide you to the best strategy. Ah, okay. I like that. Yeah.
(29:53) Does that make sense? That makes sense. Yeah. So like all right Mark Remember like this is the example with my mother-in-law that I was saying? So she's like you know, are you really the director? And I was so triggered that I'm like no, I'm not. You know, like and I'm going to take exactly what Mark thinks. And then of course I regretted it because I was a jerk.
(30:12) And that was what made me motivated to actually do more research and write because I was like wow, if the director of the center for emotional intelligence can't regulate then how is everybody else doing? >> [laughter] >> Like I'm I'm actually I spend my life reading about this and writing about it and teaching it and if I'm struggling well, this has got to be hard for most people.
(30:32) And then I came down the next morning and like firstly, this woman is 81 years old. She speaks no English. She's in a different country. She's got a parrot and a dog that we had to figure out how to take care of for 7 months. >> Yeah. >> She's absolutely lonely and miserable. Yeah. I didn't give a I wasn't thinking about her.
(30:53) >> Mhm. >> And then all of a sudden I just had this intense empathy and compassion for my mother-in-law because I was so narcissistic. It was all about me and my house and you're interfering with my productivity and I don't want to make you coffee every morning. And then I realized Mark, like gosh, like how narcissistic are you, you know? Here's an 81-year-old woman who is afraid of getting who doesn't want to go outside, who misses her parrot and her dog, who's been misplaced into your house. Do you think she wants
(31:21) to be there? No, she wants to get home. So, how about being a little other oriented? It completely transformed our relationship. We'd have breakfast and I'd be like, "Tell me a story when you were a teenager." >> Mhm. >> And all of a sudden we started building a relationship as opposed to me being like annoyed with her all the time.
(31:39) >> I think in that situation, a lot of people listening and and watching this would feel like, well, it's not a case of like who's winning or who's losing, but they would feel like, "Why should I have to change myself when this person's being a jerk? Like, when this person's being an like why should I have to change?" >> Mhm.
(31:57) >> And I think they they they battle with that internally to decide like, "Do I want to change? Do I even want to be that person because this person doesn't deserve it sometimes, you know? Like >> Yeah. >> I love that and I think that's a great question. Two things. One is you can always be the first. >> Mhm. >> Like, why not take the high road? I like Michelle Obama says, you know, "When they go low, I go high.
(32:23) " I like that. >> Yeah. >> It's like, you know what? I'm not going to lower myself to your bad behavior. I'm actually going to show up and be the best version of myself whether you want me to be or not, whether you are or you're or You sleep better at night. >> Mhm. >> You feel better about yourself. Now, there's also something important here, which is that being skillful at emotion regulation is not about always being nice.
(32:48) Now, sometimes you got to, you know, if you're in a bullying situation like it's dude, like not cool. I'm like that's not the way you speak to someone like me. I'm sorry, like I don't know where you're coming from, but it's boundary setting. Sometimes you do have to kind of have the courage. I mean, I it's kind of people would think Mark Brackett, you're a black belt professor, but because of my childhood bullying experiences, I get very nervous in these kind of like power situations when someone's kind of being a little
(33:18) aggressive with me. It takes work. I got to take some breaths and I got to remember that, you know, you know, push comes to shove, I can, you know, beat the heck out of this person. But the truth is that it's hard. And sometimes the right answer is not being kind. Sometimes the right answer is being assertive.
(33:38) So, I want people to really be clear about that. That emotion regulation and being your best self is not always being it's never being a doormat. But it's preserving each person's dignity. Like why not be the teacher? So, for example, um sometimes, you know, the students that I serve, for the most part, they're amazing, they're great to work with.
(34:04) But once in a while I get like an entitled student. You know, "Professor Brackett, I've got a question, but you know, I'm not really sure you'll know the answer." >> [snorts] >> Now, my true self in that moment wants to be like, "You got to be freaking kidding me." Like really? This is like this is the way you're going to ask, you know, like connect with me? And I could be like really nasty.
(34:26) And I just my gut, to be frank, is to be like retaliate. But like I'm the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence. I'm a teacher and I'm a professor. I'm an expert in emotional intelligence. I'm going to make this into a really cool situation where I'm going to say, you know, I'm just curious, what made you think that would be a helpful way to ask me a question? >> Ooh.
(34:49) >> [laughter] >> Better. Much better. >> And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, maybe that kid will have some self-awareness to say, you know, I was a little arrogant. >> Yep. >> Do you see what I'm getting at? >> Mhm. >> Like it's it's kind of cool to take the high road. >> I get it. >> Because not only are you preserving your own dignity, >> Yep.
(35:07) >> but you're actually elevating other people. >> I'm just thinking from the perspective of like, if someone's in a relationship and they're with a difficult partner who just doesn't get it. >> Like >> Well, then you have to leave. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that says no like emotion regulation cannot solve every life problem.
(35:27) >> Mhm. >> But that's also part of it. It's like, I've really worked hard at trying to build this relationship or um managing my emotions. It's hard to change the gaslighter. >> Yeah. >> Because they tend to be narcissistic and mean. >> Mhm. >> And so you can manage your emotions in that relationship for just so long.
(35:51) And then you have to say, actually the best strategy for me is to escape this relationship. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> But that's also a good signal. Like I'm learning that the strategies are not working. Because, you know, the relationship is really off in power dynamics. I'm going to head out. >> Mhm. >> But then you need the emotion regulation to leave the relationship.
(36:13) >> Right. And that's >> And then you start feeling nervous about either people or myself, and I thought this was going to work out. You got to deal with all that self-talk and that kind of self-sabotaging that might happen. >> Mhm. >> So, it's always going to be helpful. Sometimes it will tell you, like I'm I'm done.
(36:27) But even when you're done, you still have to live your life. >> Yeah. >> Okay, what's the next one? Cognitive strategies. >> Okay. >> So, um Do you know the term gaslighting? >> Let's talk about it. >> [laughter] >> Maybe you've been experiencing that. Uh you know, so my friend Robin is the one of the leading experts on this and we do a lot of writing about it because I think most of us have negative self-views because of gaslighting.
(37:01) Like, "Oh, Mark, you're so sensitive." >> Oh, wow. >> And then you start believing it. >> Mhm. >> Or you're so feminine. Like, you're not tough enough. My father was like My father was like a tough guy. As a matter of fact, this is a joke about this now. It wasn't so funny when I was a kid. My father would say, "Son, I used to beat kids up like you.
(37:20) " >> Woah. [laughter] >> Okay, Dad, like that's parenting 101 class. >> Jeez, yeah. >> And I think he tried to That was his way of like telling me to toughen up. >> Yeah. >> My point here is that other people in many ways believe they have the power, the right to define your reality for you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like, "You're too fat. You're too skinny.
(37:45) You're too tall. You're too short. You're too dark. You're too light." >> Mhm. >> "You're too religious. You're not religious enough." Whatever it is. >> Mhm. >> Um and then what happens because there's no real intervention, you just start believing it. And that's the gaslighting. >> Mhm. >> Gaslighting is when you start second-guessing your own reality because other people have kind of manipulated you to think the way they think >> Mhm.
(38:10) >> about you. >> And so, do you think that we've been gaslit by people around us as we've grown up? >> 100%. Our entire lives. >> Mhm. >> In many instances, especially when we have negative self views. Cuz gaslighting really is like a self-esteem kind of squasher. >> Right. >> Um and who's helping us sift through this feedback? >> Yeah.
(38:36) >> You know, who's helping us say, "Wait a minute. Like, who do you think you are trying to define my reality for me?" Like, I actually like myself. Like, "Rain on somebody else's parade." >> Yeah. >> I didn't have that in my life. And so what happened is that I started believing that I was not good enough. >> Yeah.
(38:51) >> of people I think are victims to this. So we have to learn how to reframe. >> Mhm. >> We have to learn how to rethink our own realities, especially when they're, you know, not serving our goals in life. >> Mhm. >> I'm not good enough. I'm not strong enough. I'm not fast enough. I'm not smart enough. Whatever it is.
(39:10) And so there are techniques for that. And they're really helpful. There is what's called cognitive reframing. How much data, Mark, is there to prove that you are this way? >> Okay. Yeah. >> Well, actually, it's like only one person that's really mean to me. >> Yeah. >> Other people seem to really like me. >> Yeah.
(39:30) >> Oh, remember that. >> Mhm. >> So like let's reframe the way they think about you and pull in how other people think about you and realize you're actually a pretty good guy. >> I love this. Like, yeah, the idea of like looking at the evidence in your life. So if someone says something and you're like, "Well, actually, evidence in my life says otherwise.
(39:50) " >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I still have I mean, like, I'm a pretty successful guy. I mean, you know, I'm a tenured professor at a good university. I've written two books. You know, I've traveled around the world. And there are like, even yesterday I was at a conference and I'm endlessly comparing myself to other people.
(40:06) >> Mhm. >> It's like, they have more followers. And then I have to like go through this whole thing, but you're a scientist and they're an influencer. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it's like, even at 57 years old, I'm still like, "Okay, Mark, remember." Fifth degree black belt, yes. >> [laughter] >> PhD, yes.
(40:26) I mean, it's This is life. And maybe I'm unique. I don't think I am. That, you know, my self-esteem can be a little variable. But you need techniques to remind yourself, you know, of who you are and and your strengths. >> Mhm. >> And envy's okay. Like I feel envy all the time. >> Mhm. >> It's when it diminishes my self-esteem, it's not good.
(40:48) >> Mhm. >> I I am envious of the way some people present. And I can either kind of lean that towards admiration >> Mhm. >> or towards resentment. >> Mhm. >> And I try to lean towards admiration. Say, what can I learn from you as opposed to why am I not good enough? >> Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying earlier, right? Changing the meaning behind it.
(41:08) >> Yes. >> Mhm. >> So that's reframing. >> Yeah. >> And there are a million other techniques. One technique that I and did recently, I shared recently online that seemed to be very appreciated is a technique that I call the observe versus the absorb technique. >> Okay. >> So this is less of a of one that's like about myself and more like if I'm in a situation, let's say, with someone who is being like really mean or Well, the best example I have is I was in Australia recently and I'm checking into a hotel.
(41:37) >> Yeah. >> It's like midnight. It's like, you know, 25 hours to get there. I'm exhausted. And I was visiting an organization to do a speech. And the person who was in charge of this bed and breakfast in this little village I was in hated that organization. But she knew I was there cuz they had booked the hotel.
(41:55) >> Okay. >> like, I hate that organization. And I'm The woman is drunk. It's like midnight. I'm freaking tired. And she's going on and on about like, I can't believe you came all the way from the United States to do this >> Oh god. >> to support them. Like they're And I was like, oh god, this is not good.
(42:13) Like I'm like, I need to go to bed. And so I could have just sort of like sat there and been like, you know, like trying to explain myself. Like, I don't have time for this Yeah. So, I just looked at her and I decided to make her into a movie. So, I put a little television screen. >> Oh, what? >> And I just observed and I was like, this is unbelievable.
(42:33) This is fascinating. This is like, wow, I wonder what her childhood was like. And I just got curious about the why she was so activated. And so it took away like that panicking on me. And then once she got exhausted after a few minutes, I just said, you know, "Gosh, it sounds like you had a rough time with that group, but I had to be honest, I'm really tired.
(42:53) I just need the key to my room." Thank you. And so I just didn't allow myself to get lost in it. >> Yeah. That's what you did, yeah. >> It's the observe versus absorb technique. Pretty powerful. >> I love this, yeah. >> All right, so that's the cognitive stuff. >> Okay. >> The next one is the relationship stuff. So, there's a phrase in developmental psychology which is never worry alone.
(43:20) Yeah, I thought you know, I think that many of us boys are taught toughen up. That we're taught don't ask for help, that makes you weak. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Why? >> I I don't know. I mean, I think over time it's what it's done for me is is made me actually um if I go through something, I actually struggle more when I share it with other people because then I get clouded and then I'd rather actually just be alone and solve it because I've just learned that from such a young age to just get on with it.
(43:50) >> Mhm. >> But I don't know why that is the case. I don't know why boys are taught that, but >> I mean, girls are taught it, too. We're in generally we're taught like, you know, suck it up, figure it out. >> Yeah. >> I think this is actually an area of a very big interest for me in terms of how we relate to other people and the expectations you know, that people put on themselves and that we put on other people in terms of like what's the goal of social support.
(44:18) >> Mhm. >> And the goal of social support is like say you were let's say you were struggling with your breakup. >> Yep. >> And you just really are struggling because you're like you don't understand what happened or maybe I'm making this up maybe it happened I don't know but maybe this person cheated or maybe they wanted someone else instead of you and then they this whole like what how could that person wait what do they have that I don't have I mean it can go on and on right? >> Right.
(44:40) >> So in those moments it's easy to spiral. >> Yep. >> Like you just like >> Yeah. >> I'm not good enough and I can't believe this. >> That's true, yeah. >> And so I had this happen for example uh many years ago uh a colleague of mine just started being kind of not so kind to me in public. >> Oh, okay. >> And I was like how how like that nice this guy I know like how is this possible? And so I called everybody I knew.
(45:06) And um it was like jerk. Next one like I can't believe that that's ridiculous. No one actually was helpful. >> Mhm. >> Because they made it worse for me cuz then I hung up after 15 people and I was still alone and I had nowhere to go with it. >> Mhm. >> But one person who I call my emotion ally was actually quite skilled.
(45:29) So what she said was Mark how important is this person to you? And I was like actually I don't really like that person that much. >> Mhm. >> And and by the way how often do you have to be with this person? I'm like I actually haven't seen them in a couple years. And then she says so think about that for a minute.
(45:49) >> Mhm. >> And um does that help you kind of see the situation a little differently? I'm like yeah like I'm making this into something is so much bigger than it really is because in the real world this person has very little impact over me. >> Yeah. >> And she goes, "Yeah, so just think about that for a bit." >> I love that. Yeah.
(46:11) >> And all of a sudden I was like, finally one person, they weren't trying to fix me, they weren't like rescuing me, they weren't, you know, um, getting hijacking, they, you know, they were just with me asking really clever questions to get me out of the loop. >> Mhm. >> Does that make sense? >> This makes complete sense and I think that it's definitely making me think about like who in my life is an emotional ally, as you say.
(46:37) >> Yeah. >> Versus the person who would try and fix me or the person who actually could aggravate me. >> Yes. >> You know, um, I think a lot of us have friends that will be they think they're being supportive by basically making by validating our feelings even though they we should they should actually be doing the opposite and helping us get out of our feelings.
(46:54) >> Well, validation that you want to validate and then help them come out of it. >> We spoke earlier about you, um, psychoanalyzing. >> Uh-huh. >> I'm curious how you would psychoanalyze me. >> I think you're healthier than you think you are. >> Wow, okay. That's good to know. >> Interestingly enough, you know, given, you know, the focus of your podcast, which is on relearning, it's a that's a clear >> Mhm.
(47:17) >> signal. >> Mhm. >> You know, that maybe that's a projection, you know, of you wanting to relearn some of the patterns maybe that you grew up with. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> that sit with you? >> Yeah, I think like every single conversation I have, I walk away being like, "Okay, I'm going to apply this now into my life and learn something new.
(47:36) " I I kind of wish that every listener and watcher of the podcast almost goes to every the very first episode and just watches every single one. And I want to see how that shifts their life because it's doing so much for me. And I love having moments where I felt thought I knew something and then it's like, "Whoa, like I did not realize that that was the case.
(47:53) " >> How are you feeling about this conversation? >> I grew up where like emotions were not as discussed. And so to now be in a conversation which I know is going to reach so many people where we're discussing heavily how to deal with emotions, how to regulate them, I just know it's going to benefit so many people.
(48:11) And so yeah, I'm I'm feeling really grateful. >> I did this other podcast with some like dude guy. And you know, you you read the comments. You know, most people are like, "This was really life-changing and helpful." But one dude, "I don't think that guest had an ounce of testosterone." >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And it's like of the I mean like literally millions of comments that have been positive, you know, about my appearances on different podcasts.
(48:38) >> Yeah. >> Um of course that's the one that hits me. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it hit a nerve. And so I think it's interesting um how you know, and I reframe that is like whose problem is it, you know. But my real point here is that I think a lot of like even the work that I do in the corporate sector has been called soft skills.
(49:04) >> Mhm. >> And I just think it's a terrible term. >> Yeah. >> Like these are hard skills. You know, it is hard to regulate. >> Mhm. >> And you know, one of the things that I feel passionate about is that I know from my research that leaders managers in the workforce who are better at this who are more skillful at both the self and the relational piece by the way.
(49:32) Because when you're in a workplace and especially during a crisis you're looking at your leader. >> Yeah. >> And you're wondering, are they going to crumble? >> Mhm. >> Are they going to get through this? >> 100%. >> Can they make it? >> Yeah. >> So you're worrying or you're concerned about their self-regulation. >> Yes.
(49:46) >> But you're also concerned about, are they going to take care of us? >> Mhm. they >> to be here for us? Are they going to be thinking about how we're doing? And what my research shows is that where there's a leader who is skillful at self-regulation and co-regulation, which is another form of this, we didn't even get to that yet, which is how do you apply all these ideas that I'm sharing with you from my book to other people? Okay, right? Cuz that's the job of a leader, of a parent, is to co-regulate.
(50:14) As a an employee in an organization, am uh a feel confident that my leader can manage their emotions and be kind of like hold the team together, I'm happier at work, I'm less burnt out at work, I'm less likely to be spending time looking for jobs, you know, network, and I'm more productive. So, like that that that's not a soft skill.
(50:39) This is like this is like bottom line here. Like you're going to have a healthier, happier culture and climate in your workplace when you have these skills. >> I agree. I mean, like I think about when I was running a company before 2020 and I was very disregulated with my emotions. I was extremely erratic.
(50:58) I would I just I had no control over my emotions whatsoever, and that company collapsed. And then I think about the other companies after that that I've scaled, and it's like I've always been way more regulated with my emotions, way more in control of what's going on. The team have felt more comfortable, they felt more safer.
(51:19) So, absolutely I agree. I think more leaders need to develop more more emotional intelligence for this reason. >> And that's where the mindset piece is so important, going back to the first strategy, because a lot of leaders, like for example, even doctors that I work with, they're nurtured for their brilliance.
(51:35) The surgeon, right? I'm like the expert at brain surgery. I'm not an expert at building, you know, relational trust. But that relational trust is critical in the operating room. Yes. That relational trust is critical for how nurses take you seriously or not. >> How do you develop relational trust? >> That's the work that we're talking about.
(51:57) And and all this all this kind of like paying attention, co-regulation. Being aware of how people are feeling on your team and saying, "Hey, what can I do be to be supportive?" >> Yeah, the co-regulation piece I think is >> is like we think of that mostly in mother-child bonding. >> Mhm. >> You know, when the baby's crying, the mommy holds the baby, they breastfeed, they blow in their face, they coo, they help the baby, you know, stop crying and relax so they can fall asleep.
(52:22) >> Mhm. >> But that is very, you know, we're not cuddling our employees. But you got to know how to help your employees feel like they matter. >> Mhm. >> And if they're having a rough day or if they're feeling like you're giving them harsh feedback that's not clear, they're going to leave there and they're not going to be productive.
(52:45) >> Mhm. >> It just makes sense when you think about it. You know, people um there's a phrase that I love that people forget what you said, people forget what you did, but they never forget how you made them feel. That's what that's the piece of it. You know, we have Roosevelt said, you know, people don't care how much you know until they know you care.
(53:07) And I think that really is a key element here. >> Yeah. >> Actually, my workplace research, the number one hoped for emotion that people have is appreciated. >> Oh, wow. >> They just want to feel like, "Can someone just thank me once in a while? Like just be aware that I'm actually putting in effort and acknowledge it.
(53:25) I'm not asking for a raise. I'm not asking for like, you know, the trophy. I'm just asking you for them to say, you know, 'Hey Cash, you know, I really I noticed what you did the other day was really spot-on.'" >> Wow. Is this just workplace or is this also friendships, for relationships, all other? >> I know I didn't that particular research was at the workplace.
(53:44) >> Okay. >> I'm I'm sure it, you know, applies everywhere. >> Yeah. I love that. Appreciation is the number one most wanted feeling in the workplace. Wow. What else have you found from your research that has been quite shocking? >> I think the quite shocking thing is going back to our whole conversation here, which is that only 10% of people say they learned anything about this growing up.
(54:13) >> Mhm. >> And like 7% of people say they learned it in school. >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, we've talked a lot about relationships in workplaces. And I also am a preventionist. So, you know, the program that I've built is in now 5,000 schools and I'm trying to scale that across the world. >> Mhm. >> Because everyone should get an emotion education.
(54:36) I mean, think about how different our society would be if we learned this in preschool, elementary school, middle school, high school, continued it in college, and the workplace. I mean, we'd have a very different society. >> Mhm. >> It's fascinating to me, you know, we're in a world where um depression and anxiety are becoming leading causes of death.
(54:57) >> Yeah. >> And so, how is that possible that we we know there are solutions to this? That teaching these skills can be helpful to prevent these unwanted life experiences, but somehow or another we're resistant to doing it. >> Mhm. >> What are your thoughts about that? Like, why are people Why are Why is my work being politicized? Why do we people think that this work is like woke? Or that empathy is a bad thing.
(55:22) >> I just think there's a narrative around like not feeling emotions as a man. And I think when you have a patriarchal society, you're going to find people thinking that for that reason. Expressing any emotions is going to be too woke or too liberal or too left-wing or whatever you want to call it. I think that's honestly where it's stemming from, personally.
(55:46) Um, with that being said, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, I have found there have been times where suppressing my emotion has benefited me. >> Mhm. >> And it's just been like, just keep moving. It's like, now is you have uh, things that matter way more right now and just get on with it. Um, but there have also been times where it's not been beneficial and I've had to recognize that.
(56:11) >> Yeah, I think you're right. So, here's another interesting point. All of these strategies can be helpful or unhelpful. >> Mhm. >> So, if I'm reappraising in a gaslighting situation, unhelpful. >> Mhm. >> Like, maybe there is something wrong with me. Maybe I am too sensitive. >> Mhm. >> You could reappraise yourself into a terrible relationship.
(56:32) >> Yep. >> You can I I was a fitness instructor for years. And so, um, I would watch people on the treadmill for 6 hours. >> Yep. >> they need to go home and have that difficult conversation. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's like, you know, it's so like it's like, you know, it's not like exercise is, you know, and for the most part, it's helpful, >> Yep.
(56:50) >> but people can use that as an excuse to never have the difficult conversation. >> Right. >> You know, alcohol, people are saying it's bad for you. You know, a couple glasses of wine here and there and building connection, no problem. 10 beers, probably not helpful. Suppression, you know, if you're at a scary movie, I don't want to see it.
(57:09) Who cares? It's fine. >> Mhm. >> You can suppress for that moment. It doesn't really matter. It's not going to like affect your life. >> Yeah. >> If you're suppressing everything that goes wrong, >> Mhm. >> it's going to pile up like a debt. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Pile up like a debt. >> Avoidance is fine, too.
(57:27) >> Yeah. >> You know, like, if you like, why that particular colleague, you know, I just decided like, I don't need to see this person. And when I see them, I just kind of go the other way. We have nothing like there's nothing um going to be beneficial from the relationship and I don't want the relationship and I'm not avoiding it cuz the person is just not a good person.
(57:48) >> Yeah. >> I'm not avoiding mean like I'm not avoiding like dealing with it. There's nothing like that's the that's an example of like that relationship is over. >> Yeah. >> And so why would I want to put myself in a situation with someone I don't want to be with? >> Mhm. Okay. I'm getting it now. >> That's not denial.
(58:06) That's healthy avoidance. >> Mhm. And that's okay. Okay. >> Yeah, I mean it's like people are estranged unfortunately for reasons that are >> Mhm. >> real. It's That's not unhealthy. It's like that person is toxic. They're They're making my life worse. Not avoiding them. I'm creating boundaries. >> Mhm. You said emotions pile up like a debt.
(58:27) >> Yeah. >> What does that start to look like? >> It starts to look like bloat. >> [laughter] >> You know? It starts to look like, you know, heart problems. It starts to look like immune deficiencies. Um immune system problems. It starts to look like headaches, stomach aches, back aches. That, you know, if we suppress for too long like we need outlets for this.
(58:56) >> Mhm. >> It starts to look like compulsive eating. It starts to look like alcoholism. >> When it comes to emotions piling up, I'm I'm curious to know like I think when everyone's listening to this, they're probably thinking to themselves, "Well, I I think I'm quite good at managing my emotions." >> Yeah. >> And they have these coping mechanisms.
(59:16) How do we get them outside of that kind of habitual >> That kind of like everything's fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean you have to really that's where I call it being an emotion scientist about your life is is >> Mhm. >> So you have to ask yourself questions. And this is even around the strategies. >> Yep. >> You have to ask yourself, is this strategy actually helping me in my relationship? Like, how is my relationship really going? I mean, I had to you know, it's it's honesty.
(59:43) >> Mhm. >> And so, I think a lot of people don't spend time reflecting, you know, not like navel gazing, but just taking a moment and say, "Huh." Like, I have a friend who is going through a divorce. He and his wife have not had intercourse in 7 years. 7 years. You know, like because they're not comfortable talking about their feelings.
(1:00:09) >> Mhm. >> They're suppressing, they're denying, and they're miserable. >> Mhm. >> So, let's just Hey, honey. Like, I'm I'm not [laughter] doing this to you, but you get what I >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Like, what's going on? Like, are we meant to be together? Are we not meant to be together? But, there's so much fear and like people have feelings about their feelings and and nobody wants to be intimate or or vulnerable.
(1:00:31) >> Mhm. >> And so, what do you do? You go to the bar for too many hours a day. >> Mhm. >> You deny yourself having sex. You, you know, are angry. >> Mhm. >> You're resentful. Like, who wants that life? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is all about emotion regulation. >> Yeah. >> If you can't regulate your feelings of dissatisfaction or hurt or boredom, >> Mhm.
(1:00:55) >> then you got to I mean, then you're going to be unhappy. So, I think that for people, you know, who are listening, it's like just think about your life. Are your relationships going in the direction that you want them to go? Are you actually happy in your relationships? >> Mhm. >> You can do a little sociogram.
(1:01:16) Like, who are the five people that you're closest to? At work, at home. >> Mhm. >> And ask yourself, what is the emotion in that relationship? Is it joy? >> Mhm. >> Is it excitement? >> I love this. >> Or is it despair and hopelessness and fear and anxiety? If it's a lot of fear and despair and anxiety, what are you doing about it? Are you just letting it ride because you're afraid of dealing with it? >> Mhm.
(1:01:42) >> You can do that with your own well-being. Like it just in general. How are you feeling about your life, yourself, your work? Your productivity, your performance, are you achieving your goals, your dreams? I'm convinced that this is the skill that determines whether or not people achieve their dreams. >> The skill being emotion regulation.
(1:02:05) >> Because it's the it's the emotion that gets in the way. It's the fear that I can't deal with the fear and I just can't do that. It's the anxiety, it's the frustration. If I don't have the skill, then what happens, the emotion starts winning. It's why I get depressed. >> Yeah. >> It's why I get anxious, etc.
(1:02:24) >> And then you just don't move. Right. >> Just kind of stop doing it because it's easier to give up than it is to deal with the emotion. >> How can a parent make sure that they're giving their child what they need to make them a success? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think they have to be the best possible role model.
(1:02:41) So, I always say that with parenting it's about teaching these out loud. So, for example, I'm a dad. I come home from work. Let's say I had a really rough day at work. Happens all the time. And your kid is like say you have like a 7-year-old. Like you're the 7-year-old, okay? Can we do a little role play here? I'll be the 7-year-old.
(1:03:00) >> I see I'm a little 7-year-old kid. >> Okay. >> And you're like, "Daddy, Daddy, I want to play." >> Okay. >> Okay, ready? I come home from work. Hey, son. >> Uh Daddy, Daddy, I want to play. >> [laughter] >> Son, I've had a rough day. Like I Daddy's not in the mood tonight. Sorry. Like I you know, just go play with yourself.
(1:03:17) Um That's what my father probably would have done. He probably wouldn't even engage with me. He would have been like, you know, I'm not in the mood. And go sit, have a beer, and watch television. Take two. >> Daddy, Daddy, I want to play. >> Son, you know, I actually I I'm sure you do want to play.
(1:03:38) And you've had a long day at school, but I just you know that Daddy had a really rough day at work today. I actually got into a fight with one of my colleagues, and I feel terrible about it. And I just have to figure out what I'm going to say to this person tomorrow to apologize so that I can move forward. So, if you don't mind, I just need about 15 minutes to myself.
(1:03:56) I just want to go sit in my room, you know, in the den, and just kind of just get my head off of it. Um and I'm pretty sure that once I figure that out, we can come back and go outside and play some time together. >> Mhm. >> So, what did I do in that 30 seconds? You tell me. >> You were able to separate feeling triggered in that moment.
(1:04:21) And so, that gave you the space to be able to communicate clearly how you're feeling, what you want to do about it, in a calm way for the 7-year-old me to be able to listen to it and be like, okay, it's okay if you need to take 15 minutes. >> What else? Think about it. What else did I teach? >> You taught that you're going to figure out a way to apologize so that you can move [clears throat] forward with your your colleague.
(1:04:48) Which as a 7-year-old I'm then thinking, okay, you get into an argument, it means that you work out how can I apologize and move forward rather than learning as a 7-year-old get into argument and then get angry and then, you know, drink a beer and watch TV, you know. Yeah. >> All in 30 seconds. >> Mhm. >> Some people are like, it's so much work.
(1:05:09) I'm like, it just takes skill. >> Mhm. >> So, what I taught you on top of that is I taught you the daddy reflects, daddy cares about people, daddy problem solves, daddy sometimes needs space. All of that happened in that 30-second conversation. >> And it's okay to have all of that. That's also what you taught.
(1:05:28) It's okay to take space. >> There you go. >> Mhm. >> So, I think that's a great thing for parents to do. Um because it's it's a being a role model for healthy regulation. And it's saying it out loud so the kid can understand your process. And like you just said, "Oh, so now if I get into a fight with my friend, I don't have to just ignore them.
(1:05:50) I can actually come home and think about it or maybe ask somebody else for support and think about a way to problem solve about it." >> Maybe a photo rising question. Can a narcissist narcissistic parents do regulate and and kind of get to the stage? >> It's tougher. >> Yeah. >> And so, narcissism is a personality disorder, which means it's all about me.
(1:06:11) And so, we have to help people, you know, from early on, you know, realize that parenting is all about your kid. >> Yeah. >> You know, this is the other orientation piece. But that's why I think this kind of work, when you do it early, it just I think we'll have far fewer narcissists in our society. Because we're we're showing empathy and compassion and other orientation so early.
(1:06:39) >> So, I'm just thinking in that role play scenario, you're with a kid. Like I've got a nephew. >> Yeah. >> He's about 10 months old and I'm thinking all the time about, "Okay, as an uncle, how am I going to show up for him?" And so, if he came to me in this situation and he was upset with someone and I was like, "Okay, you're upset.
(1:06:55) How like what do you think is the best way to respond?" >> Yeah. >> What if they're like this may sound silly, but what if that his response is like I want to hit them. >> Great. Not a problem. So, >> Yeah. Um let's let's role play that one out. >> Like how does that how do I do that? >> I'm you're going to be my nephew now and I'm going to say, "I heard you got into that fight yesterday and you know, what do you think is the best way to deal with it?" >> I want to hit them.
(1:07:22) >> Wow. Um what makes you want to hit them? >> They were mean. I don't like them. I want to hit them. >> Yeah. I can see why you might want to do that. I'm just really I want to know how you think that's going to help. >> It'll make me feel better cuz he was mean to me and so if I can hit him, then it'll make me feel better.
(1:07:40) >> I'm curious, why would you feel better when you hit somebody? >> [snorts] >> Okay, I see I see how this is going. >> Do you see? >> Yeah. >> I'm being I'm not I'm just asking questions. I'm just getting you to I'm trying to get you to reflect and for you to think about how you might impact you know, other people and yourself.
(1:08:01) >> I'm so happy with that we did this role play. I think so many parents are going to benefit from that. >> It really works. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you don't want to say, you know, that's stupid or that won't work because you know, truthfully, if you're growing up in a tough neighborhood, sometimes you do have to stand up to the bully.
(1:08:18) It doesn't mean that everybody has to shoot each other though. Like how is that going to help? So, we do have to try to move towards a more compassionate society, peace building. >> Yeah. >> But it's one step at a time. >> What are your thoughts on using AI to help regulate our emotions? >> Good question. I think you need to use it with a lot of caution.
(1:08:40) >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Why is that? >> Because it's not a human connection. Take all of Mark Brackett's research and other people's research on emotion regulation. I'm going to have a difficult conversation with a colleague. Give me some ideas. >> Mhm. >> Go for it. I think I think you'll get great feedback on that.
(1:08:55) I think it'll give you, you know, it'd be better if you really learn the work first then you can evaluate what it gives you because part of the problem with AI is that you don't that if you only use that but don't have the knowledge base you don't know if it's actually going to be helpful or not. Yeah. So, if I did that I would be like yikes or wow, this is really cool cuz I have the scientific understanding of the concepts.
(1:09:17) But for the most part I think if you say, you know, take this work, take the research, take the podcast that you know, you've heard Mark Brackett speak about this things in the research. Give me like four ideas for how to have the difficult conversation. I think it would work really well. >> Okay. >> That's as an adult. >> Mhm. >> Where I'm against it is with children.
(1:09:37) >> Okay. >> Because let's go back to my own example. I would tell you I was terribly bullied. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm on the bus. The bus the kids are spitting on me. They're punching me in the face. And I now get off the bus and I'm feeling like miserable. >> Yeah. >> What do I need? >> You need in that moment someone to come and tell you and someone to come and be with you.
(1:10:00) To be like you're okay, you're amazing, you can still get through this. These kids are bullying you and like we need to address this and obviously basically >> I need someone as a co-regulator. AI is not going to help with that. >> Mhm. >> I need a hug. I need someone to tell me they love me. >> Mhm. >> I need someone to coach me.
(1:10:20) >> Mhm. >> I need someone to help me, you know, have a conversation with the principal of the school. I need someone to talk to the bus driver. >> Mhm. >> I need to build my kids confidence and self-esteem. Right? >> AI is >> not going to do that. AI has >> skills of validating you though. Like, you know. >> Yeah, but maybe falsely.
(1:10:40) >> Mhm. And that's where we need to be >> No, I don't like even what you said just to be honest is not, you know, I'm going to coach you a little bit here. You don't want to just say you're amazing. Cuz if the kid doesn't believe they're amazing, you telling them they're amazing is not going to be helpful. >> Mhm.
(1:10:54) >> What you want to say is I'm in it with you. I got you. I'm I'm here for you. You don't want to just use those performative kind of like, "You're amazing. You're great." >> Mhm. >> Cuz if you don't believe it, it's it actually works against the kid. >> Wow. Okay. >> That's the false sense of like you know, the whole everybody gets a trophy, everybody's perfect.
(1:11:15) >> Yeah. It's just saying I'm with you. >> It's not like, "Yes, you're a loser." That's not helpful. >> Mhm. >> It's saying, "Gosh, you know, that sucks." >> Mhm. >> Validating and saying let's think through this together. All right, let me think about this. You know, let me you know, let's what what would be the most helpful right now? What do you think you need right now? Or you know, let's do some coaching on how you can talk back, you know, to someone who's being mean or hurtful to you.
(1:11:45) >> Mhm. >> Let's do a little role play here. And then I'll be right there when you get off the bus to make sure it went okay, and then we'll talk about it. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. On that note, then, I'm curious because you've touched on this. What is the best way when you're with a partner or a family member or a friend and they're upset and they're feeling hurt by something that someone else has done? How should we as a partner show up to help them? >> One is that warmth is better than coldness.
(1:12:16) That is be welcoming. Like a facial expression that says, "I'm here for you." >> Mhm. >> The second is do not say your opinion. Doesn't matter. >> Agree. I totally agree. >> Like nobody gives a about what you think or your opinion. >> Yeah. >> Don't try to be the fixer or the rescuer or the judge. People want someone who's not judgmental.
(1:12:40) >> Mhm. >> The third is do more listening than talking. What do you need right now? And then shut up. And what do you what would you what would be helpful right now? Do you want to try this? Do you want to do this? The fourth is just really be in it and show the compassion. And the fifth is you know, when it's time for you to go or or it's gone on too long, just say, you know, I need to go, but let's check in tomorrow.
(1:13:12) You know, let me know how it's going. I want to just, you know, it's that follow through. It's that I call it steady presence. So, that's what people My research have done this many, many times and across cultures. >> Mhm. >> The emotion ally, as I call it, has those attributes. >> Wow. >> Warmth, non-judgment, listening, compassion, and steady presence.
(1:13:33) >> Oof. I love this. You speak You've spoken in the past a lot about finding non-judgmental people in your life. >> Yeah. >> I've found that one of the most incredible people in my life is the most the least judgmental. >> Yeah. >> She's just like, you be you and I will always be here and I will not judge you for your actions.
(1:13:53) >> It's what we're I mean, cuz again, it goes back to the not always gaslighting, but it goes back to you know, we're just being judged from the moment the moment we come out of the womb. Oh my god, look how beautiful the baby is. Ooh. Or, you know, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too feminine, you're too masculine, you're too this, you're too that. It's like, judgment every day.
(1:14:12) >> Yeah. >> You know, like, do this and stop doing this and why you behaving this way and stop doing that and like, do your homework this way and talk to me this way and don't talk to me that way. It's like, >> Yeah. >> endless >> Mhm. >> energy coming at us that's kind of like judgment >> Mhm. >> as opposed to curiosity.
(1:14:30) And a lot of people say, well, my job is to judge. It's like, >> Yeah. >> If you're an Olympic, you know, judge, yeah. Fine, but don't judge my feelings. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay. Um so, I wanted to to to bring us away into something else. So You mentioned everyone isn't depressed, they're just using the word.
(1:14:52) >> Yeah. >> Can we expand on that? I'm curious to know. >> What's like anxiety? >> Okay. >> So, you know, I'm depressed. It's like, tell me more. Oh, I didn't get an A on the test. I'm like, that's not depression, that's disappointment. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> You know, I'm anxious. About what? Oh, that I have to give a presentation.
(1:15:14) It's like, okay, well, maybe you're worried or maybe you're nervous, but anxious? You know, and so I'm now I sound like a judge, by the way. See, I can I can fall into it myself. You got to like and I'm being I'm playing around with you a little bit. >> Yeah. >> But the point here is that um because we're so grossly emotionally unself-aware, >> Yeah.
(1:15:36) >> we make a lot of errors. And then it becomes like like for example, maybe 10 years ago, I did this study at the university, and the word then was stressed. People don't say stressed anymore now, everybody's anxious. >> Mhm. >> It's the anxious generation. >> Yeah. >> So, stressed, um and I was like, these are like college students.
(1:15:58) I'm thinking to myself, okay, wait a minute here. Like you're a student at Yale. It's pretty darn good. You know, you're taking four or five classes a semester. It's not that hard. >> Mhm. >> You know, you got amazing professors. >> Yeah. >> The food is pretty good, the campus is pretty cool. Like, is it really stressed? Cuz stressed is having too many demands and not enough resources.
(1:16:21) >> Mhm. >> So, is it really is that the real emotion? And so what I did is I had my students journal about the things that they were stressed about. >> Okay. >> And what I realized was that they were actually feeling >> Uh they were actually feeling I don't know. I I probably they were just they're feeling anxious about what's going on.
(1:16:45) >> Envy. >> Envy? >> Envy. >> Okay, I definitely was not going to go there. >> Because they're sitting in my class thinking, "Your father's richer than my father. Your mother's more connected than my mother in, you know, Hollywood." And everybody's just making comparisons. "You have more followers on social media.
(1:17:03) You have a better physical appearance. You study for less hours and get better grades." >> So, they were telling themselves, "I'm feeling stressed." But really, they were just feeling envy. Correct. >> Mhm. >> And so, they go for treatment for stress. >> Not for envy. >> Exactly. >> Which is the problem. >> Yes.
(1:17:22) Because they're mislabeling their experience, and then they're trying to solve for a feeling that they're not actually feeling. Because, you know, all the yoga in the world is not going to solve your envy. >> Yeah. But that's what they think that they have. So, they're going to keep >> They're going to just try to do breath work and mindfulness work, which is fine.
(1:17:39) >> It's misdiagnosed. >> Basically, yes. >> But I love the way that you define each word. Like, you defined anger, you defined disappointment, you defined stress. Like, how how What are the definitions of all of these so people know like what does each one How do they know what they're feeling? >> Well, by the way, that's what the app is great for.
(1:17:57) Free app, How We Feel, Android iOS, 144 emotions and their definitions. And actually a couple hundred more if you search for them. And I think it's important because we do misuse these words. Like, stress is having too many demands and not enough resources. Whereas anxiety is uncertainty around the future. So, for example, when I'm feeling stressed, which I do feel a lot.
(1:18:21) Cuz I got a lot of email. Can't respond to everybody. >> Yep. >> You know, stuff like that. I either have to just say, "Mark, delete it. It's unfortunate, but you can't get back to everybody." >> Mhm. >> Or I have to find a system to delegate. >> Mhm. >> Otherwise, I'm just going to be stressed all the time. >> Mhm. >> I can go for my walk, take my breath, but then I come back and I still got too many emails.
(1:18:44) So, I got to do something about it, the demand and the resource situation. So, again, naming it helps us find the pathway to regulating it. >> Absolutely. Uh yes. Okay. Yeah, cuz I I come across so many entrepreneurs and we're always like, "Oh, we're stressed." But, the reality is it's not stress. Sometimes it's it could just be feeling anxiety and answers to what we're doing in the future. Yeah.
(1:19:03) >> When I was writing this book, I actually was very like, you know, there are certain parts of the book that I'm expert at. But, when you write a book, you're not always, you know, the expert at every chapter. So, you have to do research and you get to learn. >> Mhm. >> And there were days where I was like doing like the biology stuff, which is not my background.
(1:19:23) And I was just sort of like lost in the neurotransmitter world and lost in the, you know, chemical world. And I would just get overwhelmed. I was like, "I can't process this. I'm like And I would sometimes try to struggle through it. >> Mhm. >> And then there were days where I'm like, "Mark, just shut the computer and take a walk.
(1:19:41) " >> Mhm. >> As a matter of fact, the my joke about my book was that cuz it was a lot it was overwhelming for me at certain points. And every time I would get a super overwhelmed, >> Yeah. >> you know, my my you know, professor self was like, "Plow through it." And I would do that and it would be terrible.
(1:19:59) I would just be like I wouldn't even know what I'm doing. Like so confusing and like not even well written. >> Yeah. >> My emotionally intelligent self shut the computer, went for a walk, did a workout. And then I came back and it was like all fresh. >> Mhm. >> So, for that, the exercise and movement helped. >> Yeah. >> And again, it's like overwhelmed is when you're saturated.
(1:20:21) So, trying to plow through something when you're saturated is not going to be helpful. Yeah. Give yourself the break, whether it's 5 minutes or an hour, whatever it is. When you're anxious, it's about the future. So, then problem solve about the a that's in the future that you're uncertain about. >> Mhm.
(1:20:34) When you're stressed, there's too many demands on other resources, so delegate or do less. >> It's so simple when you put it like this, cuz you're just like figure out what it is >> I this is like my this is what I do, right? >> Yeah. >> So, um but it does, I think, it is interesting. >> Yeah. >> What do you think? >> I'm loving it.
(1:20:52) I'm thinking to myself like how there's been so many scenarios where I've mislabeled the emotion, gone ahead and done cuz I'm I'm all about problem-solving. So, I will meditate, I will go to the gym, I'll figure out like I I will journal. And I'm just thinking now there's so many times where I've been like, "Why is it not working?" And I'm now realizing now it's because I've mislabeled the emotion in the first place, found a strategy for that, and it was never that. That was never the problem.
(1:21:14) It was something else. And so, that's why I'm I'm I'm loving this. >> Yeah, so going back to the students for envy, it's like, "Okay, what do you do to solve the envy?" >> Mhm. >> Maybe take a moment and be grateful. >> Yeah. >> Maybe just look at your situation and and like say, "What what are three things that are actually going well for me right now?" >> Mhm.
(1:21:35) >> Oh, wow. I haven't put my brain in that direction in a while. >> Mhm. >> As opposed to why is everybody a better than me? The why's everybody better than me? You have more opportunity, your parents are more connected, you know, uh you know, you're the real valedictorian. >> Yeah. >> Get curious like, "Huh, why am I going there?" >> Mhm.
(1:21:57) >> Then all of a sudden you say, "Oh, wow. This is not going to be the recipe for, you know, a good day." >> I heard with envy one of the most effective ways of like helping with envy is to reframe it to inspiration. >> It can be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's exactly the what I do, which is, you know, when I see somebody with great timing in a presentation, um I'll say something like, "Oh, wow.
(1:22:24) I can try that one out next time." >> Mhm. >> You know, instead of, you know, "Why are they so good and they're better than I am. >> Yeah. >> That's not helpful. >> Yeah. You know, it's so interesting cuz you mentioned to me before we started this podcast, you said um you work you help you did work with the White House and then you were like, but not the current White House.
(1:22:42) >> Yeah. >> And I'm starting to realize now why that may have not been the case with the current White House. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm just thinking the current situation in America and the leadership the political leadership happening right now, I just think that they would not be interested in learning about this stuff.
(1:23:01) >> It's not a priority. >> Yeah, but I don't understand why because everything you've taught just makes you an incredible leader for your people. >> Yeah. I mean, there are many reasons. I mean, I give you one which is an unfortunate and scary one is that um you know, we have a weird a very strange relationship with diversity in the United States right now.
(1:23:29) Unfortunately, given that it is the most diverse country in the world. All right, one of the most diverse. And um and so there are certain people who don't want their own children to have empathy for people who look different than them, who have a different color skin or a different sexual orientation or gender identity. >> Wow. >> And so they'll do anything they can to protect their kids >> Jeez.
(1:23:53) >> from having empathy or being interested in others. To me, that's dangerous. >> Mhm. >> To them, it's preservation. >> That is definitely dangerous. Yeah. Wow, okay. Um [laughter] I didn't want to make this political podcast. No. >> I mean, it's not a political. I mean, it's just a reality. >> Yeah. >> That, you know, there are people who have these belief systems.
(1:24:19) >> Yeah. And um I think dangerous. They don't um But let's talk about it instead of just creating dynamics that were where we're trying to suppress uh certain people. Um if you care um about your kid and you want them to feel like they belong then everybody should feel like they belong. Like why is it okay like why is it okay for some kids to feel like they belong and other kids to feel alienated? >> Mhm.
(1:24:52) >> That would be the question I would have. How do you believe what I've talked about with you today on emotional intelligence and emotional regulation um would impact people's mental health, their relationships, and their goal attainment? Do you see the connection? >> Goal attainment for sure.
(1:25:11) Relationships for sure. Mental health, yeah, for sure. Uh because I mean, the way I see it is exactly what you said. If you can regulate your emotions Bare like so my background is I was like a monk for a bit. And the whole thing behind that was you basically get to this state where you're just this instead of this, you're just this.
(1:25:30) >> Yeah. >> And if you're like this, you can obviously operate with clarity. And so I then took that away into everything that I did when running companies, etc. So I'm all about like how can I get to this? >> form of monk were you? Like what was the >> I was a Hindu monk. So we were chanting mantras. So the the the goal being that you're basically going through self-realization and recognition of that you're the soul and you're connected to something bigger.
(1:25:55) But on a more practical material level, the idea is that you um kind of in balance. You're not erratic with your emotions. So I'm all about like finding that balance. >> Which by the way um for some cuz I studied Buddhism actually >> Mhm. >> and went to become a bodhisattva. >> Oh, amazing. >> Um but I did notice there were people with the motivation to have still minds and there were people who were there because they were suppressing their lives.
(1:26:23) >> Mhm. >> It was an easy It was easier to sit on the cushion than it was to live in the real world. And I'm not saying that was your case at all. But I'm just saying that this is why we have to ask ourselves, is this really working well for me? Is this actually my goal? Is this what I want to be doing? >> Yeah.
(1:26:41) >> Or is this an escape? Or is this >> Yeah. >> suppression? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, being as a Hindu monk, like we were studying the Vedic texts. >> Yeah. That's right. >> And it And it's very explicit that like do not escape. Like there is literally like a a story of a warrior and he's being and he's saying like I want to be He's basically being asked to fight.
(1:27:01) And he's saying I'd rather meditate than go fight. And he's being told, you can't go meditate. That's an escape. You need to go fight. >> I have, as a martial artist, as someone who studied Buddhism, applied many of those principles to my work on emotional intelligence. I think they're really kind of beautifully connected.
(1:27:17) >> Mhm. >> But at the same time, I feel like meditation and mindfulness without deliberate instruction in emotional intelligence is is not as beneficial. And I think you're you're you're you're a case study of this where is that, you know, bec- even though we can still our minds and be very present, it doesn't really mean that we know how we're feeling.
(1:27:38) >> Mhm. >> Cuz unless we have the vocabulary and the granularity, >> Mhm. >> we might be sitting with something, but it might be we might be going in a direction of suppression or denial. >> Mhm. >> I don't know what you think about that. >> No, now when you put it like that, I'm agreeing because you may be able to still the mind, but if you don't recognize what you're feeling, you also can't show up best for the people around you.
(1:28:02) You can't show up best for your partner. You can't show up best for your team. You can't show up best as a leader. Like You can't show up best as a leader because you're basically it's it's what you said. It's either suppression or it's just avoidance of what's going on. >> It's also from my perspective, and I think, you know, I studied with people like Thich Nhat Hanh, you know, who I just admire and another master named Sheng Yen, who is Taiwanese.
(1:28:25) And I think at the highest level there is humor. There is sadness. There is the full range of emotion. And I think sometimes it comes across as like stilling the mind is to be kind of without emotion. And like why would you want your life to be without emotion? >> [laughter] >> Like you know, it's like >> But a lot of it is like it's it is like urge suppression.
(1:28:51) >> Yeah. >> And I think it's interesting to think about it that way. >> I studied something called Bhakti yoga. And Bhakti yoga is all about devotion. So there is like a full spectrum of emotions that you experience. And the idea is that you are a human in this lifetime, so you will experience different emotions.
(1:29:07) But it's more about recognizing kind of it's almost dovetailing the emotion to something higher, so that you're not always kind of just in this material world and just kind of going through different motions for the sake of going through motions, you know? That's kind of where where >> Like don't you know, like um allow the urge to take over.
(1:29:25) >> Mhm. Exactly. Exactly. >> But sometimes it's fun. >> [laughter] >> I love that. Um okay, so I had a couple of things that I wanted to kind of uh tail off on. So >> for me I think that we've obviously looked at society in this current generation, loneliness is probably one of the biggest like issues that everyone's facing.
(1:29:52) How do you recommend with the work that you do and the research that you've done, what do people need to know when it comes to loneliness? >> That they don't have to worry alone. They don't have to be alone. That a lot of times the loneliness is because we're not comfortable talking about our feelings. >> Mhm.
(1:30:15) >> And we're playing video games or we're on social media. We're escaping the human connection that we're actually unconsciously dying for. >> Mhm. So, it's actively disciplining to show up and be like, "I want to be with someone and connect with someone." >> We're born to be in relationships. >> Mhm. >> And we have I'm I you know, I was thinking about this exact question recently.
(1:30:39) Just like as I was taking a walk. Because I realized that So, I was a kid who was unfortunately sexually abused and bullied, really lonely and scared as a kid. And I didn't talk to anybody about it cuz I was afraid. And what I did was I was I was the age when the very first video games came out. And I would play this like football game which is like, you know, it's a line that was going across.
(1:31:01) It was very old-fashioned. And I would just go to my room hours and hours isolated. >> Mhm. >> Not getting my needs met. Not telling anybody the pain I was going through. Then I became a teenager. I got a Walkman when they first came with the Sony Walkman. >> Yeah. >> And listen to tapes and music all day long. And then, you know, I got a computer.
(1:31:20) >> Mhm. >> And then now it's social media and now it's AI. And my argument is that all of those things are the symptoms, not the disease. Yeah. The disease is that we don't teach people how to connect. >> Mhm. >> The disease is that we're afraid to be you know, and I use the word intimacy broadly, intimate. >> Yeah.
(1:31:40) >> Yeah, vulnerable. Have conversations. And what happens that when we don't teach that, we have to do something with our emotions. So, we escape. We lock ourselves in our room. We'd rather text. I had a friend So, when my father died, I had a friend who is like in the field. She text as she called my assistant.
(1:32:01) And she goes, "I need you to go into Mark's office and tell Mark that I love him." I was like, that is really weird. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And so, this is a close friend. And I call up this friend I said, you know, like really? You know, like what made you not just call me? >> Yeah. >> I didn't want to, you know, I didn't know what to say and I wasn't really sure and I was afraid that you'd be having too strong I'm like, you're one of my closest friends.
(1:32:29) I don't want to I actually would love to hear your voice. So, maybe text me and say what do you need right now as opposed to just making an assumption that I don't want to hear your voice or that you'd be bothering me. >> Mhm. >> And another friend actually said, you know, they wrote me a little text they're like, you know, this is a lot for you.
(1:32:48) I just want to you know, I'm here for you whenever you want to be here. You want me to fly in to sit with you for a couple days, I'm happy to do it. You want to do the phone call. I'm going to leave you alone. Um, but you know, I'm just going to send you something cuz I just wanted to just give you something to, you know, help out. >> Yeah.
(1:33:00) >> I was like, that's a cool friend. >> Yeah. >> But that's a skill. And that's a relational skill. And we don't teach this. >> Mhm. >> And so, what happens is that we go into our rooms and lose ourselves or play video games or do social media. Right now, I mean, the average teenager is spending 6 to 7 hours a day on their phone.
(1:33:23) >> Yeah. >> That means there's no eye contact. >> Yeah. >> That means there's no conversation. >> Yeah. >> The text conversations are not the same. >> Definitely. >> when I did Zoom webinars, I love doing them. I can make them funny. I try to engage with the audience, but there's nothing like this or doing a live presentation.
(1:33:41) >> Absolutely. What's been the most fascinating that we've probably not touched on or discussed so far? >> Well, we've been here for 2 hours. I think we've talked a lot about a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um, one of the interesting things that we haven't talked about was that in my research on the emotion ally piece >> only 1/3 of us across the world believe that we had anyone to talk to about our feelings growing up.
(1:34:06) And 2/3 of us did not, going back to the loneliness factor you're referring to. And so I'm on a mission to make that 100%. Everybody when they're young should have someone they feel safe with to talk to about their experiences. And I think as adults we need it too. It's just It's just a different form. So to me that is really unfortunate and it's a a research finding that I'll be publicizing a lot more so that we can create action steps to yeah, make it better.
(1:34:38) >> Just off the top of your head though, I'm curious to know how come we find those people who we can feel safe around? >> Yeah. It's a good question and I think the question is whose responsibility is it? >> Yeah. >> And so for young people the adults have to show up. So we got to teach the adults who are raising and teaching kids how to be warm, non-judgmental listeners who are compassionate, who provide steady support.
(1:35:04) >> Mhm. >> You know, a lot of people are like, "It's too difficult." It's like, I'm not I'm not I'm not asking you to be the rescuer, the fixer, the problem solver. I'm asking you to just show up. >> Mhm. >> Be present. >> Mhm. >> So I think that we have to make an effort to be that person. Um and I think then once we understand it and we grow up we can look for those people like at work, at school.
(1:35:30) So I think early on it has to come from without >> Mhm. >> and then later on it can come from within. >> Mhm. I love that. Yeah. >> Cuz I'm I'm very selective now, you know, I'm older >> Yep. >> and um like as soon as I meet people and they like we had like even at a conference like yesterday, there are people who are like, you know, "That one sucked and I That was dumb and I yeah, I've heard that before and I'm like, uh, you go. Bye-bye.
(1:35:56) Like I don't need to be around you. I just want to be around that judgment. It's just like, uh. >> Yeah. >> may feel it. I may think it. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But like I'm not going to be that person that's going to, you know, >> be around it all the >> Yeah, yeah. >> So then I'm just dead. >> Mhm. >> And then I met someone who was just really kind of really interesting, uh, totally curious.
(1:36:15) And that person we had dinner together and I just feel like, you know, I was someone I admired for their their their behavior. >> Mhm. If all your work disappeared tomorrow, what's the one thing that you would leave behind for everyone to know? >> It would go back to the basics of a permission to feel. >> Mhm. >> Like let's just give ourselves that permission to experience emotions without judgment.
(1:36:46) And let's let everybody that we live with and that we raise also have that experience. >> Thanks so much, Dr. Brackett. I really appreciate you coming on. How can people find out more about you? >> I think the best place is just go to my website, which is just marcbrackett.com. It's m a r c brackett, b r a c k e t t dot com.
(1:37:07) And then obviously my books are available. It's called Dealing With Feeling. That's my newest book. Um, that's kind of really kind of the what to do for our conversation, like how do you take it to the next level of learning the actual strategies. Um, the app is available, the How We Feel app. And, um, obviously I'm on social media, but, um, so websites, books, and social media.
(1:37:29) >> Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you.
Author Name:Relearn
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@Relearnwithkash
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=900rYox3Jsg
Title: Emotional Intelligence Expert: How To Never Be Bothered By Anyone, Dealing With Feeling
Author Name: Relearn
Description: Yale professor, Founding Director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and bestselling author of Permission to Feel, Dr. Marc Brackett sits down with Kash to break down the hidden mechanics of human emotion, showing you how to master emotional regulation, break free from self-sabotage, and build unshakeable mental strength.
Get Your Copy Of 'Dealing With Feeling' Here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250329590?...
00:00 - Introduction & The Power of Emotional Intelligence
01:18 - Why Emotions Matter: Attention, Decisions, and Health
04:01 - The RULER Framework: Recognizing & Understanding Emotions
06:36 - Unpacking Anger, Disappointment, and Shame
09:25 - Labeling, Expressing, and Cultural Display Rules
12:28 - Regulation: Overcoming Emotional Activation
16:19 - Scheduling & Parking Emotions in Difficult Times
17:28 - Permission to Feel & Reframing Anxiety
21:08 - Bridging Imagination and Creative Execution
23:12 - Deactivating the Nervous System Through Breathwork
27:05 - Taking Space & Tapping Into Your Best Self
31:53 - Choosing the High Road & Setting Healthy Boundaries
36:30 - Gaslighting, Negative Self-Talk, and Cognitive Reframing
41:11 - The Observe vs. Absorb Technique
43:20 - Never Worry Alone: Finding Emotional Allies
46:54 - Hard Skills vs. Soft Skills in Workplace Leadership
51:37 - Developing Relational Trust and Showing Appreciation
54:01 - Scaling Emotional Education in Schools
56:11 - Evaluating Emotional Coping Mechanisms
58:35 - The Physical Toll of Suppressing Emotions
01:02:44 - Role Modeling Healthy Regulation for Children
01:06:10 - Navigating Conflict with Compassionate Questioning
01:08:47 - The Role and Limits of AI in Emotional Support
01:12:15 - How to Be a Steady Presence for Loved Ones
01:14:51 - Mislabeling Emotions: Stress vs. Envy vs. Anxiety
01:21:35 - Turning Envy into Inspiration & Gratitude
01:25:15 - Inner Balance, Mindfulness, and Emotional Presence
01:29:57 - Tackling Loneliness through Genuine Connection
01:34:38 - Building Safe Spaces & Closing Thoughts
Sponsorship/Speaking Enquiries for Relearn & Kash:
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/brands
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/speaking
Apply to be a guest on Relearn:
https://www.kashrupareliaa.me/relearn
Follow Kash:
Instagram - / kashroffical
Youtube - / @kashrofficial
Linkedin - / kashrofficial
Website - https://www.kashrupareliaa.me
Follow Relearn:
Instagram - / relearnwithkash
Youtube - / @relearnwithkash
Follow Dr. Marc Brackett:
Instagram - / marc.brackett
Website - https://marcbrackett.com/
Youtube - / @marcbrackett
Sponsors:
This episode is sponsored by MINDVALLEY
A platform redefining education for the mind, body, and spirit, trusted by millions across 195 countries. One quest could change the entire trajectory of your life. If you would like access to the Mindvalley platform, please submit a request via www.kashrupareliaa.me/relearn
This podcast is being produced, managed and scaled by RISEVOICE.
A media agency turning brands into industry-leading voices through content, culture, media, and performance-driven distribution.
www.risevoice.media
Transcript:
(00:00) Professor at Yale, and you've basically spent 25 years on the one question, which is what emotions actually are and what we're supposed to do with them. >> I watched the teacher one day who just saw me being bullied and just looked away. And I just felt so unsafe. Like, no one is here to protect me. >> You said emotions pile up like a debt.
(00:16) What does that start to look like? >> It starts to look like heart problems. It starts to look like immune deficiencies. It starts to look like alcoholism. >> If someone's in a relationship and they're with a difficult partner who just doesn't get it. >> you have to leave. Emotion regulation cannot solve every life problem.
(00:34) When did empathy become a weakness? About a third of them right now are trying to create legislation to ban my work in schools. I'm convinced that this is the skill that determines whether or not people achieve their dreams. >> Professor at Yale, founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, your work has been put in 5,000 schools, impacted 10 million children.
(00:57) You've also taken the same work and put it into Fortune 100 boardrooms, hedge funds, worked in the White House. You have an app that has 3 million people using it, and you've basically spent 25 years on the one question, which is what emotions actually are and what we're supposed to do with them. Why does any of this even matter? >> Most people don't even know what emotions are.
(01:16) And it's not their fault. It's just that most of us haven't had an emotion education. Now, if I were to ask you right now, what did you learn about emotions growing up in your family? >> My dad didn't really show much emotion. >> Okay. >> My mom showed me a lot of emotion. Um but I was taught as a child men don't cry.
(01:33) >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah. >> So, what does that lead to? Suppression, denial, etc. So, my work focuses on why emotions matter. >> Mhm. >> And they matter for everything. It's kind of a trick question. >> Yeah. >> They matter for five things. And the things that I focus on are attention. So, how you feel, like right now.
(01:53) If you were bored with me, which I don't think you are. >> Yeah. >> But if you were, you would be kind of like searching like what what am I going to talk to this guy about? Like I can't wait for this to be over. So emotions drive our focus. We don't necessarily think it they do, but they do. The second is they drive our judgments and our decisions.
(02:13) So we like to think we're rational creatures. My research shows actually our emotions are underneath our choices every day. The choice to go to the gym or not to go to the gym. The choice to eat a healthy food or not eat a healthy food. The third is that they drive our relationships. So for example, if I were to sit here like this, watch my facial expression.
(02:35) >> [laughter] >> If I I just lift my nostril or if I do something like this like yeah. Just a little contemptuous expression. You're like, all right, what's up with this guy? So they drive whether we approach or avoid. The fourth is they drive our mental health and our physical health. So if you don't know how to deal with your feelings, which is the topic of my most recent research, then what happens? You allow your emotions to have power over you.
(03:02) Which then usually leads to poor mental health, poor physical health. And then the final one, which is I think a lot of people who are probably listening, is it helps with your performance. You know, as someone who has taught the smartest kids, you know, on the block for 25 years, you know, at my university everybody's got perfect test scores, they have perfect grades, and they play instruments no one ever heard of.
(03:24) And yet the question is are they all successful? And the answer is no. And so how is that possible? They're so smart. Well, think about it. For people who are highly creative, emotions are inherent in the creative process. If you don't have the skills to deal with the emotional journey, often times the imagination doesn't become a product.
(03:48) >> Interesting. Okay. >> So maybe I should just teach you the the of emotional intelligence because emotional intelligence is a set of skills that helps us to use all of our emotions wisely to achieve those great outcomes of attention, learning, decisions, relationships, performance. >> I see. >> So, the first skill is recognizing emotions.
(04:06) >> Okay. >> Really being aware of people's facial expressions, their body language, their vocal tone, their behavior. But knowing that we're not perfect at it. >> Interesting. >> So, most people grossly overestimate how skillful they are. >> I think I'm amazing, so I'm good. >> Yeah, exactly. There's the problem.
(04:21) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> So, I ask for like, on a scale from 1 to 10, how good are you at reading facial expressions? >> Um generally, I'm pretty good. Like, probably like an eight. >> All right, let's test you now. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, I'm going to make a facial expression and you're going to tell me how I'm feeling.
(04:36) >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Curious? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, I was trying to just be flat. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, you're I think you're projecting that you're like hopeful and curious. >> Yeah, well, see, that was it. Cuz I didn't get anything from that. I was like, I'm hoping he's curious. >> But that's the point.
(04:55) So, you didn't get anything out of it, but then you sort of made something up. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And we do that all the time. >> Like, why are you so angry? >> Who said I was angry? I get, for example, a lot I because I guess maybe I'm a scientist, I'm always like thinking, and people are what's wrong? >> Yeah. >> Nothing's wrong, I'm just thinking.
(05:13) But maybe my face makes weird movements when I'm thinking. So, there's self-awareness or social awareness, which is me kind of like paying attention to your facial expressions. Then there's like self-awareness, like, how am I feeling right now? >> Yeah. >> Feeling at ease, interested, curious. But there's self-awareness and social awareness. So, that's the R of ruler.
(05:32) >> Okay. >> The U is understanding emotion. So, the question is like, why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? What's causing the emotion? So, for example, I'm going to ask you now. What is the difference between anger and disappointment? >> Well, disappointment is when I wanted something and it didn't quite work out the way I hoped it would.
(05:54) It would anger then be the result of whatever I'm feeling from disappointment. What do you think? >> [laughter] >> I feel like I'm being in school again and I'm being like >> Well, I'm a professor, so. >> [laughter] >> But, um, you're 50% correct. >> Okay. >> So, disappointment is around unmet expectations.
(06:12) Like, everything is legitimate. >> Mhm. >> I want to work out. It just didn't work out. Yeah. Anger, though, is a little different cuz anger has a theme of injustice. Like, wait a minute. That was not cool. That was not fair. How could you say that? >> Mhm. >> We get angry when we perceive someone to be unfair or there's an injustice.
(06:32) >> Interesting. >> Now, why does that matter? >> I feel like if you know the difference, you know how best to operate with it. >> You're a genius. >> [laughter] >> So, that's >> exactly right. >> Yeah. >> If you don't know what you're feeling or if you're a parent or a boss, like if your kid comes home and says, "I hate school.
(06:53) " >> Mhm. >> And all of a sudden you think your kid is angry or frustrated. But, they might be feeling shame. >> Mhm. >> You don't know because you just said a minute ago, right? I grew up in a family where, you know, you don't express emotions. You know, you're taught to suppress emotions. Well, guess what? That's what boys are taught these days.
(07:11) So, what do they do? They act out. >> Mhm. >> I'm angry. I'm pissed. When they're feeling disappointment or shame or embarrassment or something else. And then we look at the behavior and we judge the behavior. Oh, you're like, "Who do you think you are?" >> Yeah. >> But, we don't get curious about the why. >> Mhm.
(07:29) >> And we can't help people unless we know the why. >> Could it be like you just referenced shame and anger? Could it be that anger's like the external and then shame is what's internal? >> Like, that's the thing. Like, shame is when we have diminished self-worth. >> Okay. >> So if I'm being bullied or someone is like really being hurtful and they're saying I'm not I have no value.
(07:51) >> Yep. >> That's shame. Now I may it may show up as anger. >> Mhm. >> But the deep emotion is shame. >> Okay. >> And we want to work with the shame not the anger. Cuz the shame is the underneath piece that needs the support. >> Mhm. >> But we tend to be superficial and we look at behavior. >> Mhm. >> And one of my big lessons is that people's behavior is not necessarily a clue to their feeling.
(08:17) >> Mhm. >> That we're taught to be in psychology it's called emotional labor. My students at Yale like they can't look like they're worried or anxious. Everybody would think they're weak or not smart enough. >> Yep. >> So they put on a face. >> Yeah. >> We do this in all different forms of work.
(08:33) Like if you're a kindergarten teacher like good morning everybody. >> Yeah. >> And it's like inside you're like I hate my job or I'm feeling so depleted but I have to like look happy. >> Yeah. >> And that labor is very debilitating for many people. >> Mhm. >> Because you go home to your family and you're like >> [snorts] >> I've been smiling all day.
(08:49) >> Yeah. >> Or if you're police officer I've been like telling people to move their car. >> Mhm. >> Point here is that until we understand what's underneath people's emotions we're not going to be able to be supportive or even uh helpful to ourselves. The shame is about the diminished self-worth. The anger is about the injustice.
(09:06) >> Mhm. Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yep. >> The disappointment is about the unmet expectation. >> Mhm. >> You might be feeling all three but each one of them might need support. If you only work with the anger you're not really helping someone build their self-esteem. >> Right. Okay.
(09:22) So it's about recognizing what really is underneath. If it is anger then so be it but there could be other things as well. Exactly. And then working on that. Okay. >> And not being tricked by the behavior. You know it's like boys stomping their feet means anger and girls crying means they're sad. Why? It's just like we we we project that onto people as like that's a whole gender bias kind of thing.
(09:43) >> Mhm. >> Labeling. That's the precision. So, anger is a family of emotions, not just one emotion. Are you peeved? Are you irritated? Are you angry? Are you livid? Are you enraged? Disappointment, like we talked about. Well, it could be just feeling sad. Disappointment, despair, hopelessness, depression. >> Okay.
(10:10) >> And then there's the happy stuff, too, by the way. >> Yeah. >> Right? You can be feeling happy, or maybe you're just pleased or content, or maybe you're elated or ecstatic. So, there's a lot of emotion granularity, we call it. >> Mhm. >> And that's the labeling piece, getting really precise about the words.
(10:25) It's a good idea, like when you wake up in the morning, just check in. It's a good idea before you have that important phone call with a client. Like, how am I feeling right now? Is my voi- vocal tone going to be congruent with the message I want? Or am I still irritated at my wife, or my kid, or my colleague? >> Yeah.
(10:42) >> All right. E is expressing emotions. So, it's knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across culture and context. >> Okay. >> So, right now we're in London. And, you know, the rules are a little bit different than New York City, where I live. >> Mhm. >> But, they're super different in Dubai, >> Mhm.
(11:02) >> or in India, or in wherever else in Central and South America. >> Mhm. >> And so, there are what we call cultural display rules around the expression of emotion, which is why, by the way, we tend to make a lot of mistakes. So, for example, I was in Myanmar a couple of years ago. >> Yeah. >> And I was doing a talk, and I finished, and I thought it was a pretty good talk.
(11:22) And all of a sudden, no movement. And I was like, okay. >> [laughter] >> And I was like, thank you. And like, hundreds of people, no one clapped. >> Oh, wow. >> No one moved, And I was like, what's going on here? And I immediately kind of went into judge mode. >> Yeah. >> Like, oh, you know, they don't think I'm a good speaker.
(11:41) >> Yeah. >> But then the person who was the head of this organization stood up and went And that gave the permission to everyone else. So, they were waiting for the authority figure to acknowledge me and they were like, okay, is this did this person enjoy it? If they did, then we can actually express. >> Right.
(11:58) >> So, that's the E. >> Yeah. >> Expressing. >> Expressing of self and also being aware of how others express to you. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> The E is more about how I express. Am I comfortable? Am I safe? >> Mhm. >> Will people listen if I share? >> Mhm. >> Um I think psychological safety is a big deal for people these days.
(12:17) >> At home, at school, at work. >> Yeah. >> And then the final R is regulation, which is, you know, this book that I just wrote called Dealing With Feeling, which is focusing on the big R, which is how do you deal with your feelings? >> Mhm. >> And what I found is that that's where most people struggle. You know, you can learn the vocabulary words, like that's not that hard.
(12:37) >> Mhm. >> So, that's pretty cognitive. >> Mhm. >> But the trick with regulation is that it's hard to apply it when you need it the most. >> Mhm. >> So, if I were to say like, go blink yourself right now, right in the middle of this recording, it would be like, what the hell's going on? >> [laughter] >> And then all of a sudden you're thinking like, all right, what am I supposed to do with this guy? He's a lunatic.
(12:58) Um and then all of a sudden you're activated. >> Mhm. >> And that's where regulation matters the most. >> I think that's probably when most people would be most curious about like, how do we figure this out? But before we get into that, I want to break down this framework that you shared. So, you spoke about getting granular with understanding these emotions.
(13:18) >> Mhm. >> To our listeners and viewers, like how does then that start to have an impact in the rest of my life by me being aware of these kind of granular emotions? >> Well, there's a phrase, you got to name it to tame it. >> Okay. >> So, when you're feeling joyful and contentment, >> Mhm. >> there's nothing to do.
(13:34) >> Mhm. >> You want to savor it. >> Yeah. >> Or you want to be with it, cuz that's probably a great emotion or set of emotions to feel during a recording. >> Mhm. >> But let's say before the recording, you got a phone call from a family member like, "Cash, you're a You're an idiot. Like, what are you doing with your life?" And you all of a sudden you feel shame.
(13:54) >> Right. >> It's going to make >> Yes. >> brain's going to be trying to cuz our brains go to solving the strongest, most unpleasant feeling. >> Yes. >> make sense? >> Mhm. >> So, if I were to get a phone call right now that someone is in the hospital, >> Mhm. >> right? I'm going to be preoccupied with that because that's a problem to deal with or to solve.
(14:13) >> Mhm. >> Um so, that's important because I remember actually giving an example. I had to give a very important speech the day after my father died. And it was really tough cuz it was like I was the only speaker at this event, and my father literally died the night before. And there were some friends of mine that said, "Mark, you just have to cancel it.
(14:37) " And it's just not in my personality to cancel something that I've committed to. >> Well. >> And I was like, "Can I do this? Can I actually get up on stage with 500 people in front of me and like deliver a good presentation?" And so, I thought about my dad. And my father would be like, "Son, go make your money.
(14:56) " >> [laughter] >> He wouldn't be like, "Don't sit on the couch and like talk about me, right? I'm dead already." >> Oh, wow. [laughter] >> I mean, I'm joking, but he wouldn't want me to wallow. >> Yeah. >> He's like, "Go be productive, you know, like do your thing. I know you love me." >> Yeah. >> And so, I didn't want to be alone.
(15:12) And so, I asked my two brothers, who's now obviously were with me. I'm like, >> Yeah. >> you know, it's a little weird, but I need you to come with me to this talk in New York City. >> Mhm. >> And I was able to like put the grief and the sadness into a little kind of box for a couple hours and then do my presentation and then I went back to my sadness and my grief afterwards.
(15:34) And I think it's a great example of how we can allow emotions to have power over us or we can use emotions wisely. It wasn't that I was denying my father's death. It was that I didn't want A, I had a job to do that I felt I was committed to. But B, it was an example of how I can park an emotion for a little while and then come back to it.
(16:02) I didn't deny, suppress cuz I did go back. And so regulation is like a multi-faceted concept. That was an example of a very specific strategy where I'm like putting an emotion here for a little while then I come back to it. >> Absolutely. So in 2020 I went through one of the biggest breakups of my life. It basically broke me in every way.
(16:22) Like I went through major anxiety, I lost a lot of weight. Um my business at the time had collapsed. So there was just a lot going on and that was basically where I started to learn how do I deal with emotion whilst living day to day? Because everyone also needed me at the same time and I needed to get back into starting a new company cuz you know, I needed to keep going.
(16:45) And so I love this idea of being able to park emotions cuz that's what I was doing in that moment. I was practicing scheduling my emotions. So I would basically feel all this pain. I'd wake up feeling this pain and I'd just be like, I'm going to deal with this at 7:00 p.m. tonight and I will journal. But for now until 7:00 p.m.
(17:00) I need to get work done. I need to wake up, I need to get on my laptop and I need to start executing. And so I'm just thinking about everyone else who's probably listening or watching. Maybe they're going through a breakup, maybe they're going through, you know, a family death or something like that. Let's break this down.
(17:14) Let's explore this. How can they regulate their emotions so they can still live life, basically. The first bucket is mindset. And this is where I think it all begins. >> Mhm. >> So, years ago, um I wrote a book called Permission to Feel, which was really an argument that I was making to the world that most people just don't give themselves permission to feel.
(17:38) >> Mhm. >> That they feel like emotions are bad or good. And the bad ones that I want to feel are the good ones that I want to just capture and keep all the time. That's not life. There are many days and there are sunny days. >> Yeah. >> So, Permission to Feel is saying, "Okay, even though I'm feeling anxiety, like, okay, what's wrong with that? Life has anxiety.
(18:03) " >> Mhm. >> Now, it's our mindset around anxiety that can make it helpful or unhelpful. If I see anxiety as debilitating, "Oh my god, I'm anxious. There's so much uncertainty around the future. What am I going to do?" >> Yeah. >> Then all of a sudden you're completely disregulated, your nervous system is activated, your brain goes into fight or flight mode, and the emotion has had power over you.
(18:24) >> Yes. >> If you reframe anxiety as "Wow, I'm anxious because I really care about the situation." >> Mhm. Game changer. >> Right? And so, I I had that happen, you know, during the pandemic. It was like crazy in my at the university, like it were closed and there was vaccines and vaxing and everybody's calling me like death threats for It was crazy.
(18:48) And, um there was a point where I'm just sort of like, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen?" >> Yeah. >> And then I realized, okay, so actually, you're anxious because you really care about the people, you know, that are working from home now. You really care about like figuring out ways to support people in dealing with their feelings.
(19:09) And that's actually what happened. I It's literally I realized uh my anxiety around my own like worries kind of about dealing with my own life. My mother-in-law had moved in by accident because um the funny story about that is that she came to visit us 2 weeks before the pandemic from Panama. >> Mhm. >> Of course on March 13th of 2020 >> Yeah.
(19:33) >> all flights canceled. >> Yeah. >> Not for March, but for April, May, June, July, August. >> Wow. >> So she got stuck with us for 7 months. And there was one night I mean it was not you know it was tough. >> [laughter] >> And she looked at me and said, "Are you really a director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?" I'm like, "Not tonight, honey. Not tonight.
(19:52) " [laughter] And it was like, "Okay." Like it was like here I was like this professor of emotional intelligence like >> Being tested. >> eliminate my mother-in-law. >> Wow. >> And it was like this we were all kind of overwhelmed and anxious. And I decided, "Okay. So I can allow that anxiety to like take over my life, all right? Or I can do what I do best which is channel that into productivity.
(20:16) " >> Mhm. >> And so I literally started like 50 studies on emotions and how were people dealing with their feelings. And it and it actually led to me writing a book. >> Incredible. >> And so I you know you can use anxiety to your advantage or you can allow it to have power over you.
(20:32) That's the permission to feel mindset piece. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's the first step. No bad emotions. Life is full with anger and happiness and contentment and frustration and overwhelm. And let's just observe it and allow ourselves to feel it. It's mostly impermanent >> Mhm. >> which is a big deal. >> Yeah, cuz we think that but when you're feeling sad you think it's going to feel sad forever.
(20:56) >> The rainy day is never going to go away. >> Yeah. >> I call that the building block for healthy regulation. But a lot of people I think forget that their emotions are either helping or interfering with their success. >> Mhm. >> And so, that's why I said earlier, it's imagination is different than a creative product.
(21:17) >> Mhm. Okay. >> [snorts] >> Like, having a creative process doesn't guarantee you're going to be successful. Yeah. How many people do we know have a rich imagination, but they can't get anything done? >> Yeah, true. >> And so, you have to What is the difference between the people who have the creative ideas and the ones who actually produce the creative product? Is they deal with the ups and downs and the roller coaster ride and the feedback and the pushback and all that stuff.
(21:39) In the America right now, my work is being politicized. Totally politicized. >> It's like Mark's woke, and Mark's trying to, you know, make kids feel empathy, which is a weakness. Like, really? When did empathy become a weakness? It's just the craziest thing. But, it's a whole agenda, which I won't get into. But, sometimes it's demoralizing.
(22:01) >> Yeah. >> And, you know, especially, um, when there are, you know, there's 50 states in America, and about a third of them right now are trying to create legislation to ban my work in schools. >> Oh, well. >> Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's become politicized, like I said. So, like, I could just say that, you know, it's over.
(22:21) >> Yeah. >> What am I going to do about this? >> Right. >> But, instead, I got a production company in Los Angeles to make a movie about it. >> Ah, okay. >> So, we're making a movie about this to showcase, all right, let's hear what the naysayers have to say, but let's also go into the classrooms and let the kids tell us what matters most to them.
(22:42) And so, then you get to decide. But, that's the that's the example of, you know, like, you could say, okay, I might as well give up, cuz like, it's all being politicized. Or, you can say, Mark, deal with the stress. >> Yep. >> Deal with the fact that half of the people in the United States don't like what you're doing right now. Yeah.
(23:00) They don't really understand it. But, how are you going to You're not going to try to, you know, fight them. I'm not going to fight back. Like that's not going to be helpful cuz then it's they're not listening. So let me just show them something. >> Mhm. >> And let them decide for themselves after they really see what it actually is as opposed to what they think it is.
(23:17) >> Going back to the strategies for emotional regulation. >> second step is clarity about the feeling. >> Okay, that's the labeling piece. >> Yeah. >> The third step is you got to know how to deactivate. >> Okay. >> You have to know how to calm your nervous system down. >> Mhm. >> Because when we have strong uh intense emotions, we have um physiological arousal, >> Mhm.
(23:41) >> right? Um the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system get out of whack. And what happens is that we go into fight, flight, freeze mode. >> Mhm. >> It's very hard to be logical when you are in threat detection mode. >> Yeah. >> So, the example I always give for this is my own kind of childhood.
(24:03) So I was a kid who was terribly bullied. Sadly I had abuse in my childhood. And um I could still to this day remember being in class, like in sixth grade or year seven. Um where kids were just being really mean, like really mean. And like drawing on my, you know, I got I used to wear like a jacket for protection.
(24:25) And these kids would like say nasty things. It's just terrible. >> Wow. >> And I watched the teacher one day who just saw me being bullied and just looked away. And I just felt so unsafe. Like no one is here to protect me. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I wasn't that tough kid. I wasn't a kid who could punch the other kid.
(24:42) Now I have a fifth degree black belt by the way. >> Nice. Yeah. >> So look out. Um but in all seriousness, when you're in that place in life, whether it's in school as a kid being bullied or in a breakup, >> Yeah. >> or at work where the pressure is so strong that you're just like freaking out at work. What happens is that you go into this kind of like survival mode.
(25:04) >> Yeah. >> You can't think clearly. >> Yeah. >> You're just you're just trying to figure out how to solve the immediate danger. >> Mhm. >> And so sometimes [clears throat] it's real danger and you need to get the hell out of there. Most of the time in life it's not. And so how do you bring the temperature down? >> Mhm.
(25:24) >> Well, you got to do it through breath work. >> Okay. >> You got to do that through kind of giving yourself that space to maybe go outside for a minute and just get distance from the person. >> Okay. >> But we have to know how to control or manage our nervous systems. If we don't do that, that's why most parents for example, they're like, "I just can't deal with this anymore.
(25:43) " You can deal with it. You know, my mother was this way. I would come up, "I hate school. Who do you think you are?" >> Yeah. >> You know, she'd immediately retaliate. >> Right. >> Because all of a sudden I think what was happening in my mom's head was "I failed my kid, you know." >> Ah. And so then she becomes activated. >> And then she couldn't help me.
(26:01) "Get to your room. Go to your room. [clears throat] Get out of my face." It was basically like either like yell at me to calm down. >> Right. >> It's like, "Wait a minute. I'm being bullied. Why should I" >> Yeah. >> Or like send me to my room. >> Yeah. >> And so my point there is that if my mother for example had had the skill to be like, "Okay, wait.
(26:19) My kid is really pushing my limits right now. >> Yeah. >> But my kid is just a kid. Mhm. I'm actually his mother. Let me take some breaths to bring it down so I can connect." >> Mhm. >> See what I'm getting at? >> We'd have a different society if that were >> We would have a really different society. That's my goal.
(26:36) >> Yeah. >> Um so that's the deactivation pieces. Now, people do that in a variety of ways. Um there's breath work, there's mindfulness, there's meditation. >> Yeah. >> And it you know, there's no one way. I think it's important to know that. Some people like certain breathing exercises, some people don't. >> Yeah.
(26:54) >> Just find the one that works best for you. >> I want to bring all of this to a practical level like that. So, someone's for example just had an argument with their spouse. And in the moment, they're struggling to like regulate. What do they do? >> So, what they do is many things. Um and that's the that's the beauty of this work is that it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.
(27:15) >> Mhm. >> Um it depends if it's an intense argument, you got to get out of the situation. Cuz you're not going to do a good job in that moment. You need to say, "Honey, I love you. Now is not the time. I cannot process. I need space." >> Mhm. And that's the from your framework, that's deactivated. >> Yes. >> Mhm.
(27:32) >> You have to you have to get yourself the space. You can try hard, it's not going to go well. >> Mhm. >> You're just your brain is not in that reflective mode. And so, sometimes and it's hard for people to do this. Like, "Can you please just give me 5 minutes? I'm just not in a good place right now." >> Mhm.
(27:48) >> You know, I know I'm going to say things that I'm going to regret. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to take some space. >> Mhm. >> And you go outside. And you take a breath. You walk around the house. You take a walk to the coffee shop. And you just give yourself that breathing room to just bring the temperature down.
(28:04) And you can also think about something that I call the best version of you. Who is the person that I want to return to that house? Is it the who's aggressive? Or is it the listener who is compassionate? >> I love that. Yeah. >> And you have to work it's it's effortful. It's takes work. But it works. And it's this is what I do.
(28:25) We call that a meta moment. >> Mhm. >> Where you build the space between the stimulus and the response. And then that space, you have a choice. This is after Victor Frankl's work called a book Man's Search for Meaning. He was a you know, obviously in a concentration camp. And so, he talks about this idea of this space between, you know, the trigger and the reaction or the helpful response.
(28:51) But people need to know what to do in that space. So when you're in that example you just gave, so all of a sudden now the trigger is boom, reaction as opposed to thoughtful response. So to build the thoughtful response you need the pause button. Right. You need the breath work. You need to get some distance yep so that you can and then access the compassionate caring self as opposed to the triggered angry self.
(29:18) That's a lot of the work I do. Yeah. Actually just to on my website I have a whole worksheet for this for people. It's just markbrackett.com and there's like a whole like you can take your workplace problem, any family problem and like work through the meta moment process. There's like different steps.
(29:34) The first step is to just be aware of the situation. The second step is to know how to pause. The third is to see your best self yep and then the fourth is to use the strategies that I've been sharing with you on how to apply that to your best self because your best self will guide you to the best strategy. Ah, okay. I like that. Yeah.
(29:53) Does that make sense? That makes sense. Yeah. So like all right Mark Remember like this is the example with my mother-in-law that I was saying? So she's like you know, are you really the director? And I was so triggered that I'm like no, I'm not. You know, like and I'm going to take exactly what Mark thinks. And then of course I regretted it because I was a jerk.
(30:12) And that was what made me motivated to actually do more research and write because I was like wow, if the director of the center for emotional intelligence can't regulate then how is everybody else doing? >> [laughter] >> Like I'm I'm actually I spend my life reading about this and writing about it and teaching it and if I'm struggling well, this has got to be hard for most people.
(30:32) And then I came down the next morning and like firstly, this woman is 81 years old. She speaks no English. She's in a different country. She's got a parrot and a dog that we had to figure out how to take care of for 7 months. >> Yeah. >> She's absolutely lonely and miserable. Yeah. I didn't give a I wasn't thinking about her.
(30:53) >> Mhm. >> And then all of a sudden I just had this intense empathy and compassion for my mother-in-law because I was so narcissistic. It was all about me and my house and you're interfering with my productivity and I don't want to make you coffee every morning. And then I realized Mark, like gosh, like how narcissistic are you, you know? Here's an 81-year-old woman who is afraid of getting who doesn't want to go outside, who misses her parrot and her dog, who's been misplaced into your house. Do you think she wants
(31:21) to be there? No, she wants to get home. So, how about being a little other oriented? It completely transformed our relationship. We'd have breakfast and I'd be like, "Tell me a story when you were a teenager." >> Mhm. >> And all of a sudden we started building a relationship as opposed to me being like annoyed with her all the time.
(31:39) >> I think in that situation, a lot of people listening and and watching this would feel like, well, it's not a case of like who's winning or who's losing, but they would feel like, "Why should I have to change myself when this person's being a jerk? Like, when this person's being an like why should I have to change?" >> Mhm.
(31:57) >> And I think they they they battle with that internally to decide like, "Do I want to change? Do I even want to be that person because this person doesn't deserve it sometimes, you know? Like >> Yeah. >> I love that and I think that's a great question. Two things. One is you can always be the first. >> Mhm. >> Like, why not take the high road? I like Michelle Obama says, you know, "When they go low, I go high.
(32:23) " I like that. >> Yeah. >> It's like, you know what? I'm not going to lower myself to your bad behavior. I'm actually going to show up and be the best version of myself whether you want me to be or not, whether you are or you're or You sleep better at night. >> Mhm. >> You feel better about yourself. Now, there's also something important here, which is that being skillful at emotion regulation is not about always being nice.
(32:48) Now, sometimes you got to, you know, if you're in a bullying situation like it's dude, like not cool. I'm like that's not the way you speak to someone like me. I'm sorry, like I don't know where you're coming from, but it's boundary setting. Sometimes you do have to kind of have the courage. I mean, I it's kind of people would think Mark Brackett, you're a black belt professor, but because of my childhood bullying experiences, I get very nervous in these kind of like power situations when someone's kind of being a little
(33:18) aggressive with me. It takes work. I got to take some breaths and I got to remember that, you know, you know, push comes to shove, I can, you know, beat the heck out of this person. But the truth is that it's hard. And sometimes the right answer is not being kind. Sometimes the right answer is being assertive.
(33:38) So, I want people to really be clear about that. That emotion regulation and being your best self is not always being it's never being a doormat. But it's preserving each person's dignity. Like why not be the teacher? So, for example, um sometimes, you know, the students that I serve, for the most part, they're amazing, they're great to work with.
(34:04) But once in a while I get like an entitled student. You know, "Professor Brackett, I've got a question, but you know, I'm not really sure you'll know the answer." >> [snorts] >> Now, my true self in that moment wants to be like, "You got to be freaking kidding me." Like really? This is like this is the way you're going to ask, you know, like connect with me? And I could be like really nasty.
(34:26) And I just my gut, to be frank, is to be like retaliate. But like I'm the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence. I'm a teacher and I'm a professor. I'm an expert in emotional intelligence. I'm going to make this into a really cool situation where I'm going to say, you know, I'm just curious, what made you think that would be a helpful way to ask me a question? >> Ooh.
(34:49) >> [laughter] >> Better. Much better. >> And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, maybe that kid will have some self-awareness to say, you know, I was a little arrogant. >> Yep. >> Do you see what I'm getting at? >> Mhm. >> Like it's it's kind of cool to take the high road. >> I get it. >> Because not only are you preserving your own dignity, >> Yep.
(35:07) >> but you're actually elevating other people. >> I'm just thinking from the perspective of like, if someone's in a relationship and they're with a difficult partner who just doesn't get it. >> Like >> Well, then you have to leave. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that says no like emotion regulation cannot solve every life problem.
(35:27) >> Mhm. >> But that's also part of it. It's like, I've really worked hard at trying to build this relationship or um managing my emotions. It's hard to change the gaslighter. >> Yeah. >> Because they tend to be narcissistic and mean. >> Mhm. >> And so you can manage your emotions in that relationship for just so long.
(35:51) And then you have to say, actually the best strategy for me is to escape this relationship. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> But that's also a good signal. Like I'm learning that the strategies are not working. Because, you know, the relationship is really off in power dynamics. I'm going to head out. >> Mhm. >> But then you need the emotion regulation to leave the relationship.
(36:13) >> Right. And that's >> And then you start feeling nervous about either people or myself, and I thought this was going to work out. You got to deal with all that self-talk and that kind of self-sabotaging that might happen. >> Mhm. >> So, it's always going to be helpful. Sometimes it will tell you, like I'm I'm done.
(36:27) But even when you're done, you still have to live your life. >> Yeah. >> Okay, what's the next one? Cognitive strategies. >> Okay. >> So, um Do you know the term gaslighting? >> Let's talk about it. >> [laughter] >> Maybe you've been experiencing that. Uh you know, so my friend Robin is the one of the leading experts on this and we do a lot of writing about it because I think most of us have negative self-views because of gaslighting.
(37:01) Like, "Oh, Mark, you're so sensitive." >> Oh, wow. >> And then you start believing it. >> Mhm. >> Or you're so feminine. Like, you're not tough enough. My father was like My father was like a tough guy. As a matter of fact, this is a joke about this now. It wasn't so funny when I was a kid. My father would say, "Son, I used to beat kids up like you.
(37:20) " >> Woah. [laughter] >> Okay, Dad, like that's parenting 101 class. >> Jeez, yeah. >> And I think he tried to That was his way of like telling me to toughen up. >> Yeah. >> My point here is that other people in many ways believe they have the power, the right to define your reality for you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like, "You're too fat. You're too skinny.
(37:45) You're too tall. You're too short. You're too dark. You're too light." >> Mhm. >> "You're too religious. You're not religious enough." Whatever it is. >> Mhm. >> Um and then what happens because there's no real intervention, you just start believing it. And that's the gaslighting. >> Mhm. >> Gaslighting is when you start second-guessing your own reality because other people have kind of manipulated you to think the way they think >> Mhm.
(38:10) >> about you. >> And so, do you think that we've been gaslit by people around us as we've grown up? >> 100%. Our entire lives. >> Mhm. >> In many instances, especially when we have negative self views. Cuz gaslighting really is like a self-esteem kind of squasher. >> Right. >> Um and who's helping us sift through this feedback? >> Yeah.
(38:36) >> You know, who's helping us say, "Wait a minute. Like, who do you think you are trying to define my reality for me?" Like, I actually like myself. Like, "Rain on somebody else's parade." >> Yeah. >> I didn't have that in my life. And so what happened is that I started believing that I was not good enough. >> Yeah.
(38:51) >> of people I think are victims to this. So we have to learn how to reframe. >> Mhm. >> We have to learn how to rethink our own realities, especially when they're, you know, not serving our goals in life. >> Mhm. >> I'm not good enough. I'm not strong enough. I'm not fast enough. I'm not smart enough. Whatever it is.
(39:10) And so there are techniques for that. And they're really helpful. There is what's called cognitive reframing. How much data, Mark, is there to prove that you are this way? >> Okay. Yeah. >> Well, actually, it's like only one person that's really mean to me. >> Yeah. >> Other people seem to really like me. >> Yeah.
(39:30) >> Oh, remember that. >> Mhm. >> So like let's reframe the way they think about you and pull in how other people think about you and realize you're actually a pretty good guy. >> I love this. Like, yeah, the idea of like looking at the evidence in your life. So if someone says something and you're like, "Well, actually, evidence in my life says otherwise.
(39:50) " >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I still have I mean, like, I'm a pretty successful guy. I mean, you know, I'm a tenured professor at a good university. I've written two books. You know, I've traveled around the world. And there are like, even yesterday I was at a conference and I'm endlessly comparing myself to other people.
(40:06) >> Mhm. >> It's like, they have more followers. And then I have to like go through this whole thing, but you're a scientist and they're an influencer. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it's like, even at 57 years old, I'm still like, "Okay, Mark, remember." Fifth degree black belt, yes. >> [laughter] >> PhD, yes.
(40:26) I mean, it's This is life. And maybe I'm unique. I don't think I am. That, you know, my self-esteem can be a little variable. But you need techniques to remind yourself, you know, of who you are and and your strengths. >> Mhm. >> And envy's okay. Like I feel envy all the time. >> Mhm. >> It's when it diminishes my self-esteem, it's not good.
(40:48) >> Mhm. >> I I am envious of the way some people present. And I can either kind of lean that towards admiration >> Mhm. >> or towards resentment. >> Mhm. >> And I try to lean towards admiration. Say, what can I learn from you as opposed to why am I not good enough? >> Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying earlier, right? Changing the meaning behind it.
(41:08) >> Yes. >> Mhm. >> So that's reframing. >> Yeah. >> And there are a million other techniques. One technique that I and did recently, I shared recently online that seemed to be very appreciated is a technique that I call the observe versus the absorb technique. >> Okay. >> So this is less of a of one that's like about myself and more like if I'm in a situation, let's say, with someone who is being like really mean or Well, the best example I have is I was in Australia recently and I'm checking into a hotel.
(41:37) >> Yeah. >> It's like midnight. It's like, you know, 25 hours to get there. I'm exhausted. And I was visiting an organization to do a speech. And the person who was in charge of this bed and breakfast in this little village I was in hated that organization. But she knew I was there cuz they had booked the hotel.
(41:55) >> Okay. >> like, I hate that organization. And I'm The woman is drunk. It's like midnight. I'm freaking tired. And she's going on and on about like, I can't believe you came all the way from the United States to do this >> Oh god. >> to support them. Like they're And I was like, oh god, this is not good.
(42:13) Like I'm like, I need to go to bed. And so I could have just sort of like sat there and been like, you know, like trying to explain myself. Like, I don't have time for this Yeah. So, I just looked at her and I decided to make her into a movie. So, I put a little television screen. >> Oh, what? >> And I just observed and I was like, this is unbelievable.
(42:33) This is fascinating. This is like, wow, I wonder what her childhood was like. And I just got curious about the why she was so activated. And so it took away like that panicking on me. And then once she got exhausted after a few minutes, I just said, you know, "Gosh, it sounds like you had a rough time with that group, but I had to be honest, I'm really tired.
(42:53) I just need the key to my room." Thank you. And so I just didn't allow myself to get lost in it. >> Yeah. That's what you did, yeah. >> It's the observe versus absorb technique. Pretty powerful. >> I love this, yeah. >> All right, so that's the cognitive stuff. >> Okay. >> The next one is the relationship stuff. So, there's a phrase in developmental psychology which is never worry alone.
(43:20) Yeah, I thought you know, I think that many of us boys are taught toughen up. That we're taught don't ask for help, that makes you weak. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Why? >> I I don't know. I mean, I think over time it's what it's done for me is is made me actually um if I go through something, I actually struggle more when I share it with other people because then I get clouded and then I'd rather actually just be alone and solve it because I've just learned that from such a young age to just get on with it.
(43:50) >> Mhm. >> But I don't know why that is the case. I don't know why boys are taught that, but >> I mean, girls are taught it, too. We're in generally we're taught like, you know, suck it up, figure it out. >> Yeah. >> I think this is actually an area of a very big interest for me in terms of how we relate to other people and the expectations you know, that people put on themselves and that we put on other people in terms of like what's the goal of social support.
(44:18) >> Mhm. >> And the goal of social support is like say you were let's say you were struggling with your breakup. >> Yep. >> And you just really are struggling because you're like you don't understand what happened or maybe I'm making this up maybe it happened I don't know but maybe this person cheated or maybe they wanted someone else instead of you and then they this whole like what how could that person wait what do they have that I don't have I mean it can go on and on right? >> Right.
(44:40) >> So in those moments it's easy to spiral. >> Yep. >> Like you just like >> Yeah. >> I'm not good enough and I can't believe this. >> That's true, yeah. >> And so I had this happen for example uh many years ago uh a colleague of mine just started being kind of not so kind to me in public. >> Oh, okay. >> And I was like how how like that nice this guy I know like how is this possible? And so I called everybody I knew.
(45:06) And um it was like jerk. Next one like I can't believe that that's ridiculous. No one actually was helpful. >> Mhm. >> Because they made it worse for me cuz then I hung up after 15 people and I was still alone and I had nowhere to go with it. >> Mhm. >> But one person who I call my emotion ally was actually quite skilled.
(45:29) So what she said was Mark how important is this person to you? And I was like actually I don't really like that person that much. >> Mhm. >> And and by the way how often do you have to be with this person? I'm like I actually haven't seen them in a couple years. And then she says so think about that for a minute.
(45:49) >> Mhm. >> And um does that help you kind of see the situation a little differently? I'm like yeah like I'm making this into something is so much bigger than it really is because in the real world this person has very little impact over me. >> Yeah. >> And she goes, "Yeah, so just think about that for a bit." >> I love that. Yeah.
(46:11) >> And all of a sudden I was like, finally one person, they weren't trying to fix me, they weren't like rescuing me, they weren't, you know, um, getting hijacking, they, you know, they were just with me asking really clever questions to get me out of the loop. >> Mhm. >> Does that make sense? >> This makes complete sense and I think that it's definitely making me think about like who in my life is an emotional ally, as you say.
(46:37) >> Yeah. >> Versus the person who would try and fix me or the person who actually could aggravate me. >> Yes. >> You know, um, I think a lot of us have friends that will be they think they're being supportive by basically making by validating our feelings even though they we should they should actually be doing the opposite and helping us get out of our feelings.
(46:54) >> Well, validation that you want to validate and then help them come out of it. >> We spoke earlier about you, um, psychoanalyzing. >> Uh-huh. >> I'm curious how you would psychoanalyze me. >> I think you're healthier than you think you are. >> Wow, okay. That's good to know. >> Interestingly enough, you know, given, you know, the focus of your podcast, which is on relearning, it's a that's a clear >> Mhm.
(47:17) >> signal. >> Mhm. >> You know, that maybe that's a projection, you know, of you wanting to relearn some of the patterns maybe that you grew up with. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> that sit with you? >> Yeah, I think like every single conversation I have, I walk away being like, "Okay, I'm going to apply this now into my life and learn something new.
(47:36) " I I kind of wish that every listener and watcher of the podcast almost goes to every the very first episode and just watches every single one. And I want to see how that shifts their life because it's doing so much for me. And I love having moments where I felt thought I knew something and then it's like, "Whoa, like I did not realize that that was the case.
(47:53) " >> How are you feeling about this conversation? >> I grew up where like emotions were not as discussed. And so to now be in a conversation which I know is going to reach so many people where we're discussing heavily how to deal with emotions, how to regulate them, I just know it's going to benefit so many people.
(48:11) And so yeah, I'm I'm feeling really grateful. >> I did this other podcast with some like dude guy. And you know, you you read the comments. You know, most people are like, "This was really life-changing and helpful." But one dude, "I don't think that guest had an ounce of testosterone." >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And it's like of the I mean like literally millions of comments that have been positive, you know, about my appearances on different podcasts.
(48:38) >> Yeah. >> Um of course that's the one that hits me. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it hit a nerve. And so I think it's interesting um how you know, and I reframe that is like whose problem is it, you know. But my real point here is that I think a lot of like even the work that I do in the corporate sector has been called soft skills.
(49:04) >> Mhm. >> And I just think it's a terrible term. >> Yeah. >> Like these are hard skills. You know, it is hard to regulate. >> Mhm. >> And you know, one of the things that I feel passionate about is that I know from my research that leaders managers in the workforce who are better at this who are more skillful at both the self and the relational piece by the way.
(49:32) Because when you're in a workplace and especially during a crisis you're looking at your leader. >> Yeah. >> And you're wondering, are they going to crumble? >> Mhm. >> Are they going to get through this? >> 100%. >> Can they make it? >> Yeah. >> So you're worrying or you're concerned about their self-regulation. >> Yes.
(49:46) >> But you're also concerned about, are they going to take care of us? >> Mhm. they >> to be here for us? Are they going to be thinking about how we're doing? And what my research shows is that where there's a leader who is skillful at self-regulation and co-regulation, which is another form of this, we didn't even get to that yet, which is how do you apply all these ideas that I'm sharing with you from my book to other people? Okay, right? Cuz that's the job of a leader, of a parent, is to co-regulate.
(50:14) As a an employee in an organization, am uh a feel confident that my leader can manage their emotions and be kind of like hold the team together, I'm happier at work, I'm less burnt out at work, I'm less likely to be spending time looking for jobs, you know, network, and I'm more productive. So, like that that that's not a soft skill.
(50:39) This is like this is like bottom line here. Like you're going to have a healthier, happier culture and climate in your workplace when you have these skills. >> I agree. I mean, like I think about when I was running a company before 2020 and I was very disregulated with my emotions. I was extremely erratic.
(50:58) I would I just I had no control over my emotions whatsoever, and that company collapsed. And then I think about the other companies after that that I've scaled, and it's like I've always been way more regulated with my emotions, way more in control of what's going on. The team have felt more comfortable, they felt more safer.
(51:19) So, absolutely I agree. I think more leaders need to develop more more emotional intelligence for this reason. >> And that's where the mindset piece is so important, going back to the first strategy, because a lot of leaders, like for example, even doctors that I work with, they're nurtured for their brilliance.
(51:35) The surgeon, right? I'm like the expert at brain surgery. I'm not an expert at building, you know, relational trust. But that relational trust is critical in the operating room. Yes. That relational trust is critical for how nurses take you seriously or not. >> How do you develop relational trust? >> That's the work that we're talking about.
(51:57) And and all this all this kind of like paying attention, co-regulation. Being aware of how people are feeling on your team and saying, "Hey, what can I do be to be supportive?" >> Yeah, the co-regulation piece I think is >> is like we think of that mostly in mother-child bonding. >> Mhm. >> You know, when the baby's crying, the mommy holds the baby, they breastfeed, they blow in their face, they coo, they help the baby, you know, stop crying and relax so they can fall asleep.
(52:22) >> Mhm. >> But that is very, you know, we're not cuddling our employees. But you got to know how to help your employees feel like they matter. >> Mhm. >> And if they're having a rough day or if they're feeling like you're giving them harsh feedback that's not clear, they're going to leave there and they're not going to be productive.
(52:45) >> Mhm. >> It just makes sense when you think about it. You know, people um there's a phrase that I love that people forget what you said, people forget what you did, but they never forget how you made them feel. That's what that's the piece of it. You know, we have Roosevelt said, you know, people don't care how much you know until they know you care.
(53:07) And I think that really is a key element here. >> Yeah. >> Actually, my workplace research, the number one hoped for emotion that people have is appreciated. >> Oh, wow. >> They just want to feel like, "Can someone just thank me once in a while? Like just be aware that I'm actually putting in effort and acknowledge it.
(53:25) I'm not asking for a raise. I'm not asking for like, you know, the trophy. I'm just asking you for them to say, you know, 'Hey Cash, you know, I really I noticed what you did the other day was really spot-on.'" >> Wow. Is this just workplace or is this also friendships, for relationships, all other? >> I know I didn't that particular research was at the workplace.
(53:44) >> Okay. >> I'm I'm sure it, you know, applies everywhere. >> Yeah. I love that. Appreciation is the number one most wanted feeling in the workplace. Wow. What else have you found from your research that has been quite shocking? >> I think the quite shocking thing is going back to our whole conversation here, which is that only 10% of people say they learned anything about this growing up.
(54:13) >> Mhm. >> And like 7% of people say they learned it in school. >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, we've talked a lot about relationships in workplaces. And I also am a preventionist. So, you know, the program that I've built is in now 5,000 schools and I'm trying to scale that across the world. >> Mhm. >> Because everyone should get an emotion education.
(54:36) I mean, think about how different our society would be if we learned this in preschool, elementary school, middle school, high school, continued it in college, and the workplace. I mean, we'd have a very different society. >> Mhm. >> It's fascinating to me, you know, we're in a world where um depression and anxiety are becoming leading causes of death.
(54:57) >> Yeah. >> And so, how is that possible that we we know there are solutions to this? That teaching these skills can be helpful to prevent these unwanted life experiences, but somehow or another we're resistant to doing it. >> Mhm. >> What are your thoughts about that? Like, why are people Why are Why is my work being politicized? Why do we people think that this work is like woke? Or that empathy is a bad thing.
(55:22) >> I just think there's a narrative around like not feeling emotions as a man. And I think when you have a patriarchal society, you're going to find people thinking that for that reason. Expressing any emotions is going to be too woke or too liberal or too left-wing or whatever you want to call it. I think that's honestly where it's stemming from, personally.
(55:46) Um, with that being said, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, I have found there have been times where suppressing my emotion has benefited me. >> Mhm. >> And it's just been like, just keep moving. It's like, now is you have uh, things that matter way more right now and just get on with it. Um, but there have also been times where it's not been beneficial and I've had to recognize that.
(56:11) >> Yeah, I think you're right. So, here's another interesting point. All of these strategies can be helpful or unhelpful. >> Mhm. >> So, if I'm reappraising in a gaslighting situation, unhelpful. >> Mhm. >> Like, maybe there is something wrong with me. Maybe I am too sensitive. >> Mhm. >> You could reappraise yourself into a terrible relationship.
(56:32) >> Yep. >> You can I I was a fitness instructor for years. And so, um, I would watch people on the treadmill for 6 hours. >> Yep. >> they need to go home and have that difficult conversation. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's like, you know, it's so like it's like, you know, it's not like exercise is, you know, and for the most part, it's helpful, >> Yep.
(56:50) >> but people can use that as an excuse to never have the difficult conversation. >> Right. >> You know, alcohol, people are saying it's bad for you. You know, a couple glasses of wine here and there and building connection, no problem. 10 beers, probably not helpful. Suppression, you know, if you're at a scary movie, I don't want to see it.
(57:09) Who cares? It's fine. >> Mhm. >> You can suppress for that moment. It doesn't really matter. It's not going to like affect your life. >> Yeah. >> If you're suppressing everything that goes wrong, >> Mhm. >> it's going to pile up like a debt. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Pile up like a debt. >> Avoidance is fine, too.
(57:27) >> Yeah. >> You know, like, if you like, why that particular colleague, you know, I just decided like, I don't need to see this person. And when I see them, I just kind of go the other way. We have nothing like there's nothing um going to be beneficial from the relationship and I don't want the relationship and I'm not avoiding it cuz the person is just not a good person.
(57:48) >> Yeah. >> I'm not avoiding mean like I'm not avoiding like dealing with it. There's nothing like that's the that's an example of like that relationship is over. >> Yeah. >> And so why would I want to put myself in a situation with someone I don't want to be with? >> Mhm. Okay. I'm getting it now. >> That's not denial.
(58:06) That's healthy avoidance. >> Mhm. And that's okay. Okay. >> Yeah, I mean it's like people are estranged unfortunately for reasons that are >> Mhm. >> real. It's That's not unhealthy. It's like that person is toxic. They're They're making my life worse. Not avoiding them. I'm creating boundaries. >> Mhm. You said emotions pile up like a debt.
(58:27) >> Yeah. >> What does that start to look like? >> It starts to look like bloat. >> [laughter] >> You know? It starts to look like, you know, heart problems. It starts to look like immune deficiencies. Um immune system problems. It starts to look like headaches, stomach aches, back aches. That, you know, if we suppress for too long like we need outlets for this.
(58:56) >> Mhm. >> It starts to look like compulsive eating. It starts to look like alcoholism. >> When it comes to emotions piling up, I'm I'm curious to know like I think when everyone's listening to this, they're probably thinking to themselves, "Well, I I think I'm quite good at managing my emotions." >> Yeah. >> And they have these coping mechanisms.
(59:16) How do we get them outside of that kind of habitual >> That kind of like everything's fine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean you have to really that's where I call it being an emotion scientist about your life is is >> Mhm. >> So you have to ask yourself questions. And this is even around the strategies. >> Yep. >> You have to ask yourself, is this strategy actually helping me in my relationship? Like, how is my relationship really going? I mean, I had to you know, it's it's honesty.
(59:43) >> Mhm. >> And so, I think a lot of people don't spend time reflecting, you know, not like navel gazing, but just taking a moment and say, "Huh." Like, I have a friend who is going through a divorce. He and his wife have not had intercourse in 7 years. 7 years. You know, like because they're not comfortable talking about their feelings.
(1:00:09) >> Mhm. >> They're suppressing, they're denying, and they're miserable. >> Mhm. >> So, let's just Hey, honey. Like, I'm I'm not [laughter] doing this to you, but you get what I >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Like, what's going on? Like, are we meant to be together? Are we not meant to be together? But, there's so much fear and like people have feelings about their feelings and and nobody wants to be intimate or or vulnerable.
(1:00:31) >> Mhm. >> And so, what do you do? You go to the bar for too many hours a day. >> Mhm. >> You deny yourself having sex. You, you know, are angry. >> Mhm. >> You're resentful. Like, who wants that life? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is all about emotion regulation. >> Yeah. >> If you can't regulate your feelings of dissatisfaction or hurt or boredom, >> Mhm.
(1:00:55) >> then you got to I mean, then you're going to be unhappy. So, I think that for people, you know, who are listening, it's like just think about your life. Are your relationships going in the direction that you want them to go? Are you actually happy in your relationships? >> Mhm. >> You can do a little sociogram.
(1:01:16) Like, who are the five people that you're closest to? At work, at home. >> Mhm. >> And ask yourself, what is the emotion in that relationship? Is it joy? >> Mhm. >> Is it excitement? >> I love this. >> Or is it despair and hopelessness and fear and anxiety? If it's a lot of fear and despair and anxiety, what are you doing about it? Are you just letting it ride because you're afraid of dealing with it? >> Mhm.
(1:01:42) >> You can do that with your own well-being. Like it just in general. How are you feeling about your life, yourself, your work? Your productivity, your performance, are you achieving your goals, your dreams? I'm convinced that this is the skill that determines whether or not people achieve their dreams. >> The skill being emotion regulation.
(1:02:05) >> Because it's the it's the emotion that gets in the way. It's the fear that I can't deal with the fear and I just can't do that. It's the anxiety, it's the frustration. If I don't have the skill, then what happens, the emotion starts winning. It's why I get depressed. >> Yeah. >> It's why I get anxious, etc.
(1:02:24) >> And then you just don't move. Right. >> Just kind of stop doing it because it's easier to give up than it is to deal with the emotion. >> How can a parent make sure that they're giving their child what they need to make them a success? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think they have to be the best possible role model.
(1:02:41) So, I always say that with parenting it's about teaching these out loud. So, for example, I'm a dad. I come home from work. Let's say I had a really rough day at work. Happens all the time. And your kid is like say you have like a 7-year-old. Like you're the 7-year-old, okay? Can we do a little role play here? I'll be the 7-year-old.
(1:03:00) >> I see I'm a little 7-year-old kid. >> Okay. >> And you're like, "Daddy, Daddy, I want to play." >> Okay. >> Okay, ready? I come home from work. Hey, son. >> Uh Daddy, Daddy, I want to play. >> [laughter] >> Son, I've had a rough day. Like I Daddy's not in the mood tonight. Sorry. Like I you know, just go play with yourself.
(1:03:17) Um That's what my father probably would have done. He probably wouldn't even engage with me. He would have been like, you know, I'm not in the mood. And go sit, have a beer, and watch television. Take two. >> Daddy, Daddy, I want to play. >> Son, you know, I actually I I'm sure you do want to play.
(1:03:38) And you've had a long day at school, but I just you know that Daddy had a really rough day at work today. I actually got into a fight with one of my colleagues, and I feel terrible about it. And I just have to figure out what I'm going to say to this person tomorrow to apologize so that I can move forward. So, if you don't mind, I just need about 15 minutes to myself.
(1:03:56) I just want to go sit in my room, you know, in the den, and just kind of just get my head off of it. Um and I'm pretty sure that once I figure that out, we can come back and go outside and play some time together. >> Mhm. >> So, what did I do in that 30 seconds? You tell me. >> You were able to separate feeling triggered in that moment.
(1:04:21) And so, that gave you the space to be able to communicate clearly how you're feeling, what you want to do about it, in a calm way for the 7-year-old me to be able to listen to it and be like, okay, it's okay if you need to take 15 minutes. >> What else? Think about it. What else did I teach? >> You taught that you're going to figure out a way to apologize so that you can move [clears throat] forward with your your colleague.
(1:04:48) Which as a 7-year-old I'm then thinking, okay, you get into an argument, it means that you work out how can I apologize and move forward rather than learning as a 7-year-old get into argument and then get angry and then, you know, drink a beer and watch TV, you know. Yeah. >> All in 30 seconds. >> Mhm. >> Some people are like, it's so much work.
(1:05:09) I'm like, it just takes skill. >> Mhm. >> So, what I taught you on top of that is I taught you the daddy reflects, daddy cares about people, daddy problem solves, daddy sometimes needs space. All of that happened in that 30-second conversation. >> And it's okay to have all of that. That's also what you taught.
(1:05:28) It's okay to take space. >> There you go. >> Mhm. >> So, I think that's a great thing for parents to do. Um because it's it's a being a role model for healthy regulation. And it's saying it out loud so the kid can understand your process. And like you just said, "Oh, so now if I get into a fight with my friend, I don't have to just ignore them.
(1:05:50) I can actually come home and think about it or maybe ask somebody else for support and think about a way to problem solve about it." >> Maybe a photo rising question. Can a narcissist narcissistic parents do regulate and and kind of get to the stage? >> It's tougher. >> Yeah. >> And so, narcissism is a personality disorder, which means it's all about me.
(1:06:11) And so, we have to help people, you know, from early on, you know, realize that parenting is all about your kid. >> Yeah. >> You know, this is the other orientation piece. But that's why I think this kind of work, when you do it early, it just I think we'll have far fewer narcissists in our society. Because we're we're showing empathy and compassion and other orientation so early.
(1:06:39) >> So, I'm just thinking in that role play scenario, you're with a kid. Like I've got a nephew. >> Yeah. >> He's about 10 months old and I'm thinking all the time about, "Okay, as an uncle, how am I going to show up for him?" And so, if he came to me in this situation and he was upset with someone and I was like, "Okay, you're upset.
(1:06:55) How like what do you think is the best way to respond?" >> Yeah. >> What if they're like this may sound silly, but what if that his response is like I want to hit them. >> Great. Not a problem. So, >> Yeah. Um let's let's role play that one out. >> Like how does that how do I do that? >> I'm you're going to be my nephew now and I'm going to say, "I heard you got into that fight yesterday and you know, what do you think is the best way to deal with it?" >> I want to hit them.
(1:07:22) >> Wow. Um what makes you want to hit them? >> They were mean. I don't like them. I want to hit them. >> Yeah. I can see why you might want to do that. I'm just really I want to know how you think that's going to help. >> It'll make me feel better cuz he was mean to me and so if I can hit him, then it'll make me feel better.
(1:07:40) >> I'm curious, why would you feel better when you hit somebody? >> [snorts] >> Okay, I see I see how this is going. >> Do you see? >> Yeah. >> I'm being I'm not I'm just asking questions. I'm just getting you to I'm trying to get you to reflect and for you to think about how you might impact you know, other people and yourself.
(1:08:01) >> I'm so happy with that we did this role play. I think so many parents are going to benefit from that. >> It really works. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you don't want to say, you know, that's stupid or that won't work because you know, truthfully, if you're growing up in a tough neighborhood, sometimes you do have to stand up to the bully.
(1:08:18) It doesn't mean that everybody has to shoot each other though. Like how is that going to help? So, we do have to try to move towards a more compassionate society, peace building. >> Yeah. >> But it's one step at a time. >> What are your thoughts on using AI to help regulate our emotions? >> Good question. I think you need to use it with a lot of caution.
(1:08:40) >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Why is that? >> Because it's not a human connection. Take all of Mark Brackett's research and other people's research on emotion regulation. I'm going to have a difficult conversation with a colleague. Give me some ideas. >> Mhm. >> Go for it. I think I think you'll get great feedback on that.
(1:08:55) I think it'll give you, you know, it'd be better if you really learn the work first then you can evaluate what it gives you because part of the problem with AI is that you don't that if you only use that but don't have the knowledge base you don't know if it's actually going to be helpful or not. Yeah. So, if I did that I would be like yikes or wow, this is really cool cuz I have the scientific understanding of the concepts.
(1:09:17) But for the most part I think if you say, you know, take this work, take the research, take the podcast that you know, you've heard Mark Brackett speak about this things in the research. Give me like four ideas for how to have the difficult conversation. I think it would work really well. >> Okay. >> That's as an adult. >> Mhm. >> Where I'm against it is with children.
(1:09:37) >> Okay. >> Because let's go back to my own example. I would tell you I was terribly bullied. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm on the bus. The bus the kids are spitting on me. They're punching me in the face. And I now get off the bus and I'm feeling like miserable. >> Yeah. >> What do I need? >> You need in that moment someone to come and tell you and someone to come and be with you.
(1:10:00) To be like you're okay, you're amazing, you can still get through this. These kids are bullying you and like we need to address this and obviously basically >> I need someone as a co-regulator. AI is not going to help with that. >> Mhm. >> I need a hug. I need someone to tell me they love me. >> Mhm. >> I need someone to coach me.
(1:10:20) >> Mhm. >> I need someone to help me, you know, have a conversation with the principal of the school. I need someone to talk to the bus driver. >> Mhm. >> I need to build my kids confidence and self-esteem. Right? >> AI is >> not going to do that. AI has >> skills of validating you though. Like, you know. >> Yeah, but maybe falsely.
(1:10:40) >> Mhm. And that's where we need to be >> No, I don't like even what you said just to be honest is not, you know, I'm going to coach you a little bit here. You don't want to just say you're amazing. Cuz if the kid doesn't believe they're amazing, you telling them they're amazing is not going to be helpful. >> Mhm.
(1:10:54) >> What you want to say is I'm in it with you. I got you. I'm I'm here for you. You don't want to just use those performative kind of like, "You're amazing. You're great." >> Mhm. >> Cuz if you don't believe it, it's it actually works against the kid. >> Wow. Okay. >> That's the false sense of like you know, the whole everybody gets a trophy, everybody's perfect.
(1:11:15) >> Yeah. It's just saying I'm with you. >> It's not like, "Yes, you're a loser." That's not helpful. >> Mhm. >> It's saying, "Gosh, you know, that sucks." >> Mhm. >> Validating and saying let's think through this together. All right, let me think about this. You know, let me you know, let's what what would be the most helpful right now? What do you think you need right now? Or you know, let's do some coaching on how you can talk back, you know, to someone who's being mean or hurtful to you.
(1:11:45) >> Mhm. >> Let's do a little role play here. And then I'll be right there when you get off the bus to make sure it went okay, and then we'll talk about it. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. On that note, then, I'm curious because you've touched on this. What is the best way when you're with a partner or a family member or a friend and they're upset and they're feeling hurt by something that someone else has done? How should we as a partner show up to help them? >> One is that warmth is better than coldness.
(1:12:16) That is be welcoming. Like a facial expression that says, "I'm here for you." >> Mhm. >> The second is do not say your opinion. Doesn't matter. >> Agree. I totally agree. >> Like nobody gives a about what you think or your opinion. >> Yeah. >> Don't try to be the fixer or the rescuer or the judge. People want someone who's not judgmental.
(1:12:40) >> Mhm. >> The third is do more listening than talking. What do you need right now? And then shut up. And what do you what would you what would be helpful right now? Do you want to try this? Do you want to do this? The fourth is just really be in it and show the compassion. And the fifth is you know, when it's time for you to go or or it's gone on too long, just say, you know, I need to go, but let's check in tomorrow.
(1:13:12) You know, let me know how it's going. I want to just, you know, it's that follow through. It's that I call it steady presence. So, that's what people My research have done this many, many times and across cultures. >> Mhm. >> The emotion ally, as I call it, has those attributes. >> Wow. >> Warmth, non-judgment, listening, compassion, and steady presence.
(1:13:33) >> Oof. I love this. You speak You've spoken in the past a lot about finding non-judgmental people in your life. >> Yeah. >> I've found that one of the most incredible people in my life is the most the least judgmental. >> Yeah. >> She's just like, you be you and I will always be here and I will not judge you for your actions.
(1:13:53) >> It's what we're I mean, cuz again, it goes back to the not always gaslighting, but it goes back to you know, we're just being judged from the moment the moment we come out of the womb. Oh my god, look how beautiful the baby is. Ooh. Or, you know, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too feminine, you're too masculine, you're too this, you're too that. It's like, judgment every day.
(1:14:12) >> Yeah. >> You know, like, do this and stop doing this and why you behaving this way and stop doing that and like, do your homework this way and talk to me this way and don't talk to me that way. It's like, >> Yeah. >> endless >> Mhm. >> energy coming at us that's kind of like judgment >> Mhm. >> as opposed to curiosity.
(1:14:30) And a lot of people say, well, my job is to judge. It's like, >> Yeah. >> If you're an Olympic, you know, judge, yeah. Fine, but don't judge my feelings. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay. Um so, I wanted to to to bring us away into something else. So You mentioned everyone isn't depressed, they're just using the word.
(1:14:52) >> Yeah. >> Can we expand on that? I'm curious to know. >> What's like anxiety? >> Okay. >> So, you know, I'm depressed. It's like, tell me more. Oh, I didn't get an A on the test. I'm like, that's not depression, that's disappointment. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> You know, I'm anxious. About what? Oh, that I have to give a presentation.
(1:15:14) It's like, okay, well, maybe you're worried or maybe you're nervous, but anxious? You know, and so I'm now I sound like a judge, by the way. See, I can I can fall into it myself. You got to like and I'm being I'm playing around with you a little bit. >> Yeah. >> But the point here is that um because we're so grossly emotionally unself-aware, >> Yeah.
(1:15:36) >> we make a lot of errors. And then it becomes like like for example, maybe 10 years ago, I did this study at the university, and the word then was stressed. People don't say stressed anymore now, everybody's anxious. >> Mhm. >> It's the anxious generation. >> Yeah. >> So, stressed, um and I was like, these are like college students.
(1:15:58) I'm thinking to myself, okay, wait a minute here. Like you're a student at Yale. It's pretty darn good. You know, you're taking four or five classes a semester. It's not that hard. >> Mhm. >> You know, you got amazing professors. >> Yeah. >> The food is pretty good, the campus is pretty cool. Like, is it really stressed? Cuz stressed is having too many demands and not enough resources.
(1:16:21) >> Mhm. >> So, is it really is that the real emotion? And so what I did is I had my students journal about the things that they were stressed about. >> Okay. >> And what I realized was that they were actually feeling >> Uh they were actually feeling I don't know. I I probably they were just they're feeling anxious about what's going on.
(1:16:45) >> Envy. >> Envy? >> Envy. >> Okay, I definitely was not going to go there. >> Because they're sitting in my class thinking, "Your father's richer than my father. Your mother's more connected than my mother in, you know, Hollywood." And everybody's just making comparisons. "You have more followers on social media.
(1:17:03) You have a better physical appearance. You study for less hours and get better grades." >> So, they were telling themselves, "I'm feeling stressed." But really, they were just feeling envy. Correct. >> Mhm. >> And so, they go for treatment for stress. >> Not for envy. >> Exactly. >> Which is the problem. >> Yes.
(1:17:22) Because they're mislabeling their experience, and then they're trying to solve for a feeling that they're not actually feeling. Because, you know, all the yoga in the world is not going to solve your envy. >> Yeah. But that's what they think that they have. So, they're going to keep >> They're going to just try to do breath work and mindfulness work, which is fine.
(1:17:39) >> It's misdiagnosed. >> Basically, yes. >> But I love the way that you define each word. Like, you defined anger, you defined disappointment, you defined stress. Like, how how What are the definitions of all of these so people know like what does each one How do they know what they're feeling? >> Well, by the way, that's what the app is great for.
(1:17:57) Free app, How We Feel, Android iOS, 144 emotions and their definitions. And actually a couple hundred more if you search for them. And I think it's important because we do misuse these words. Like, stress is having too many demands and not enough resources. Whereas anxiety is uncertainty around the future. So, for example, when I'm feeling stressed, which I do feel a lot.
(1:18:21) Cuz I got a lot of email. Can't respond to everybody. >> Yep. >> You know, stuff like that. I either have to just say, "Mark, delete it. It's unfortunate, but you can't get back to everybody." >> Mhm. >> Or I have to find a system to delegate. >> Mhm. >> Otherwise, I'm just going to be stressed all the time. >> Mhm. >> I can go for my walk, take my breath, but then I come back and I still got too many emails.
(1:18:44) So, I got to do something about it, the demand and the resource situation. So, again, naming it helps us find the pathway to regulating it. >> Absolutely. Uh yes. Okay. Yeah, cuz I I come across so many entrepreneurs and we're always like, "Oh, we're stressed." But, the reality is it's not stress. Sometimes it's it could just be feeling anxiety and answers to what we're doing in the future. Yeah.
(1:19:03) >> When I was writing this book, I actually was very like, you know, there are certain parts of the book that I'm expert at. But, when you write a book, you're not always, you know, the expert at every chapter. So, you have to do research and you get to learn. >> Mhm. >> And there were days where I was like doing like the biology stuff, which is not my background.
(1:19:23) And I was just sort of like lost in the neurotransmitter world and lost in the, you know, chemical world. And I would just get overwhelmed. I was like, "I can't process this. I'm like And I would sometimes try to struggle through it. >> Mhm. >> And then there were days where I'm like, "Mark, just shut the computer and take a walk.
(1:19:41) " >> Mhm. >> As a matter of fact, the my joke about my book was that cuz it was a lot it was overwhelming for me at certain points. And every time I would get a super overwhelmed, >> Yeah. >> you know, my my you know, professor self was like, "Plow through it." And I would do that and it would be terrible.
(1:19:59) I would just be like I wouldn't even know what I'm doing. Like so confusing and like not even well written. >> Yeah. >> My emotionally intelligent self shut the computer, went for a walk, did a workout. And then I came back and it was like all fresh. >> Mhm. >> So, for that, the exercise and movement helped. >> Yeah. >> And again, it's like overwhelmed is when you're saturated.
(1:20:21) So, trying to plow through something when you're saturated is not going to be helpful. Yeah. Give yourself the break, whether it's 5 minutes or an hour, whatever it is. When you're anxious, it's about the future. So, then problem solve about the a that's in the future that you're uncertain about. >> Mhm.
(1:20:34) When you're stressed, there's too many demands on other resources, so delegate or do less. >> It's so simple when you put it like this, cuz you're just like figure out what it is >> I this is like my this is what I do, right? >> Yeah. >> So, um but it does, I think, it is interesting. >> Yeah. >> What do you think? >> I'm loving it.
(1:20:52) I'm thinking to myself like how there's been so many scenarios where I've mislabeled the emotion, gone ahead and done cuz I'm I'm all about problem-solving. So, I will meditate, I will go to the gym, I'll figure out like I I will journal. And I'm just thinking now there's so many times where I've been like, "Why is it not working?" And I'm now realizing now it's because I've mislabeled the emotion in the first place, found a strategy for that, and it was never that. That was never the problem.
(1:21:14) It was something else. And so, that's why I'm I'm I'm loving this. >> Yeah, so going back to the students for envy, it's like, "Okay, what do you do to solve the envy?" >> Mhm. >> Maybe take a moment and be grateful. >> Yeah. >> Maybe just look at your situation and and like say, "What what are three things that are actually going well for me right now?" >> Mhm.
(1:21:35) >> Oh, wow. I haven't put my brain in that direction in a while. >> Mhm. >> As opposed to why is everybody a better than me? The why's everybody better than me? You have more opportunity, your parents are more connected, you know, uh you know, you're the real valedictorian. >> Yeah. >> Get curious like, "Huh, why am I going there?" >> Mhm.
(1:21:57) >> Then all of a sudden you say, "Oh, wow. This is not going to be the recipe for, you know, a good day." >> I heard with envy one of the most effective ways of like helping with envy is to reframe it to inspiration. >> It can be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's exactly the what I do, which is, you know, when I see somebody with great timing in a presentation, um I'll say something like, "Oh, wow.
(1:22:24) I can try that one out next time." >> Mhm. >> You know, instead of, you know, "Why are they so good and they're better than I am. >> Yeah. >> That's not helpful. >> Yeah. You know, it's so interesting cuz you mentioned to me before we started this podcast, you said um you work you help you did work with the White House and then you were like, but not the current White House.
(1:22:42) >> Yeah. >> And I'm starting to realize now why that may have not been the case with the current White House. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm just thinking the current situation in America and the leadership the political leadership happening right now, I just think that they would not be interested in learning about this stuff.
(1:23:01) >> It's not a priority. >> Yeah, but I don't understand why because everything you've taught just makes you an incredible leader for your people. >> Yeah. I mean, there are many reasons. I mean, I give you one which is an unfortunate and scary one is that um you know, we have a weird a very strange relationship with diversity in the United States right now.
(1:23:29) Unfortunately, given that it is the most diverse country in the world. All right, one of the most diverse. And um and so there are certain people who don't want their own children to have empathy for people who look different than them, who have a different color skin or a different sexual orientation or gender identity. >> Wow. >> And so they'll do anything they can to protect their kids >> Jeez.
(1:23:53) >> from having empathy or being interested in others. To me, that's dangerous. >> Mhm. >> To them, it's preservation. >> That is definitely dangerous. Yeah. Wow, okay. Um [laughter] I didn't want to make this political podcast. No. >> I mean, it's not a political. I mean, it's just a reality. >> Yeah. >> That, you know, there are people who have these belief systems.
(1:24:19) >> Yeah. And um I think dangerous. They don't um But let's talk about it instead of just creating dynamics that were where we're trying to suppress uh certain people. Um if you care um about your kid and you want them to feel like they belong then everybody should feel like they belong. Like why is it okay like why is it okay for some kids to feel like they belong and other kids to feel alienated? >> Mhm.
(1:24:52) >> That would be the question I would have. How do you believe what I've talked about with you today on emotional intelligence and emotional regulation um would impact people's mental health, their relationships, and their goal attainment? Do you see the connection? >> Goal attainment for sure.
(1:25:11) Relationships for sure. Mental health, yeah, for sure. Uh because I mean, the way I see it is exactly what you said. If you can regulate your emotions Bare like so my background is I was like a monk for a bit. And the whole thing behind that was you basically get to this state where you're just this instead of this, you're just this.
(1:25:30) >> Yeah. >> And if you're like this, you can obviously operate with clarity. And so I then took that away into everything that I did when running companies, etc. So I'm all about like how can I get to this? >> form of monk were you? Like what was the >> I was a Hindu monk. So we were chanting mantras. So the the the goal being that you're basically going through self-realization and recognition of that you're the soul and you're connected to something bigger.
(1:25:55) But on a more practical material level, the idea is that you um kind of in balance. You're not erratic with your emotions. So I'm all about like finding that balance. >> Which by the way um for some cuz I studied Buddhism actually >> Mhm. >> and went to become a bodhisattva. >> Oh, amazing. >> Um but I did notice there were people with the motivation to have still minds and there were people who were there because they were suppressing their lives.
(1:26:23) >> Mhm. >> It was an easy It was easier to sit on the cushion than it was to live in the real world. And I'm not saying that was your case at all. But I'm just saying that this is why we have to ask ourselves, is this really working well for me? Is this actually my goal? Is this what I want to be doing? >> Yeah.
(1:26:41) >> Or is this an escape? Or is this >> Yeah. >> suppression? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, being as a Hindu monk, like we were studying the Vedic texts. >> Yeah. That's right. >> And it And it's very explicit that like do not escape. Like there is literally like a a story of a warrior and he's being and he's saying like I want to be He's basically being asked to fight.
(1:27:01) And he's saying I'd rather meditate than go fight. And he's being told, you can't go meditate. That's an escape. You need to go fight. >> I have, as a martial artist, as someone who studied Buddhism, applied many of those principles to my work on emotional intelligence. I think they're really kind of beautifully connected.
(1:27:17) >> Mhm. >> But at the same time, I feel like meditation and mindfulness without deliberate instruction in emotional intelligence is is not as beneficial. And I think you're you're you're you're a case study of this where is that, you know, bec- even though we can still our minds and be very present, it doesn't really mean that we know how we're feeling.
(1:27:38) >> Mhm. >> Cuz unless we have the vocabulary and the granularity, >> Mhm. >> we might be sitting with something, but it might be we might be going in a direction of suppression or denial. >> Mhm. >> I don't know what you think about that. >> No, now when you put it like that, I'm agreeing because you may be able to still the mind, but if you don't recognize what you're feeling, you also can't show up best for the people around you.
(1:28:02) You can't show up best for your partner. You can't show up best for your team. You can't show up best as a leader. Like You can't show up best as a leader because you're basically it's it's what you said. It's either suppression or it's just avoidance of what's going on. >> It's also from my perspective, and I think, you know, I studied with people like Thich Nhat Hanh, you know, who I just admire and another master named Sheng Yen, who is Taiwanese.
(1:28:25) And I think at the highest level there is humor. There is sadness. There is the full range of emotion. And I think sometimes it comes across as like stilling the mind is to be kind of without emotion. And like why would you want your life to be without emotion? >> [laughter] >> Like you know, it's like >> But a lot of it is like it's it is like urge suppression.
(1:28:51) >> Yeah. >> And I think it's interesting to think about it that way. >> I studied something called Bhakti yoga. And Bhakti yoga is all about devotion. So there is like a full spectrum of emotions that you experience. And the idea is that you are a human in this lifetime, so you will experience different emotions.
(1:29:07) But it's more about recognizing kind of it's almost dovetailing the emotion to something higher, so that you're not always kind of just in this material world and just kind of going through different motions for the sake of going through motions, you know? That's kind of where where >> Like don't you know, like um allow the urge to take over.
(1:29:25) >> Mhm. Exactly. Exactly. >> But sometimes it's fun. >> [laughter] >> I love that. Um okay, so I had a couple of things that I wanted to kind of uh tail off on. So >> for me I think that we've obviously looked at society in this current generation, loneliness is probably one of the biggest like issues that everyone's facing.
(1:29:52) How do you recommend with the work that you do and the research that you've done, what do people need to know when it comes to loneliness? >> That they don't have to worry alone. They don't have to be alone. That a lot of times the loneliness is because we're not comfortable talking about our feelings. >> Mhm.
(1:30:15) >> And we're playing video games or we're on social media. We're escaping the human connection that we're actually unconsciously dying for. >> Mhm. So, it's actively disciplining to show up and be like, "I want to be with someone and connect with someone." >> We're born to be in relationships. >> Mhm. >> And we have I'm I you know, I was thinking about this exact question recently.
(1:30:39) Just like as I was taking a walk. Because I realized that So, I was a kid who was unfortunately sexually abused and bullied, really lonely and scared as a kid. And I didn't talk to anybody about it cuz I was afraid. And what I did was I was I was the age when the very first video games came out. And I would play this like football game which is like, you know, it's a line that was going across.
(1:31:01) It was very old-fashioned. And I would just go to my room hours and hours isolated. >> Mhm. >> Not getting my needs met. Not telling anybody the pain I was going through. Then I became a teenager. I got a Walkman when they first came with the Sony Walkman. >> Yeah. >> And listen to tapes and music all day long. And then, you know, I got a computer.
(1:31:20) >> Mhm. >> And then now it's social media and now it's AI. And my argument is that all of those things are the symptoms, not the disease. Yeah. The disease is that we don't teach people how to connect. >> Mhm. >> The disease is that we're afraid to be you know, and I use the word intimacy broadly, intimate. >> Yeah.
(1:31:40) >> Yeah, vulnerable. Have conversations. And what happens that when we don't teach that, we have to do something with our emotions. So, we escape. We lock ourselves in our room. We'd rather text. I had a friend So, when my father died, I had a friend who is like in the field. She text as she called my assistant.
(1:32:01) And she goes, "I need you to go into Mark's office and tell Mark that I love him." I was like, that is really weird. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And so, this is a close friend. And I call up this friend I said, you know, like really? You know, like what made you not just call me? >> Yeah. >> I didn't want to, you know, I didn't know what to say and I wasn't really sure and I was afraid that you'd be having too strong I'm like, you're one of my closest friends.
(1:32:29) I don't want to I actually would love to hear your voice. So, maybe text me and say what do you need right now as opposed to just making an assumption that I don't want to hear your voice or that you'd be bothering me. >> Mhm. >> And another friend actually said, you know, they wrote me a little text they're like, you know, this is a lot for you.
(1:32:48) I just want to you know, I'm here for you whenever you want to be here. You want me to fly in to sit with you for a couple days, I'm happy to do it. You want to do the phone call. I'm going to leave you alone. Um, but you know, I'm just going to send you something cuz I just wanted to just give you something to, you know, help out. >> Yeah.
(1:33:00) >> I was like, that's a cool friend. >> Yeah. >> But that's a skill. And that's a relational skill. And we don't teach this. >> Mhm. >> And so, what happens is that we go into our rooms and lose ourselves or play video games or do social media. Right now, I mean, the average teenager is spending 6 to 7 hours a day on their phone.
(1:33:23) >> Yeah. >> That means there's no eye contact. >> Yeah. >> That means there's no conversation. >> Yeah. >> The text conversations are not the same. >> Definitely. >> when I did Zoom webinars, I love doing them. I can make them funny. I try to engage with the audience, but there's nothing like this or doing a live presentation.
(1:33:41) >> Absolutely. What's been the most fascinating that we've probably not touched on or discussed so far? >> Well, we've been here for 2 hours. I think we've talked a lot about a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um, one of the interesting things that we haven't talked about was that in my research on the emotion ally piece >> only 1/3 of us across the world believe that we had anyone to talk to about our feelings growing up.
(1:34:06) And 2/3 of us did not, going back to the loneliness factor you're referring to. And so I'm on a mission to make that 100%. Everybody when they're young should have someone they feel safe with to talk to about their experiences. And I think as adults we need it too. It's just It's just a different form. So to me that is really unfortunate and it's a a research finding that I'll be publicizing a lot more so that we can create action steps to yeah, make it better.
(1:34:38) >> Just off the top of your head though, I'm curious to know how come we find those people who we can feel safe around? >> Yeah. It's a good question and I think the question is whose responsibility is it? >> Yeah. >> And so for young people the adults have to show up. So we got to teach the adults who are raising and teaching kids how to be warm, non-judgmental listeners who are compassionate, who provide steady support.
(1:35:04) >> Mhm. >> You know, a lot of people are like, "It's too difficult." It's like, I'm not I'm not I'm not asking you to be the rescuer, the fixer, the problem solver. I'm asking you to just show up. >> Mhm. >> Be present. >> Mhm. >> So I think that we have to make an effort to be that person. Um and I think then once we understand it and we grow up we can look for those people like at work, at school.
(1:35:30) So I think early on it has to come from without >> Mhm. >> and then later on it can come from within. >> Mhm. I love that. Yeah. >> Cuz I'm I'm very selective now, you know, I'm older >> Yep. >> and um like as soon as I meet people and they like we had like even at a conference like yesterday, there are people who are like, you know, "That one sucked and I That was dumb and I yeah, I've heard that before and I'm like, uh, you go. Bye-bye.
(1:35:56) Like I don't need to be around you. I just want to be around that judgment. It's just like, uh. >> Yeah. >> may feel it. I may think it. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But like I'm not going to be that person that's going to, you know, >> be around it all the >> Yeah, yeah. >> So then I'm just dead. >> Mhm. >> And then I met someone who was just really kind of really interesting, uh, totally curious.
(1:36:15) And that person we had dinner together and I just feel like, you know, I was someone I admired for their their their behavior. >> Mhm. If all your work disappeared tomorrow, what's the one thing that you would leave behind for everyone to know? >> It would go back to the basics of a permission to feel. >> Mhm. >> Like let's just give ourselves that permission to experience emotions without judgment.
(1:36:46) And let's let everybody that we live with and that we raise also have that experience. >> Thanks so much, Dr. Brackett. I really appreciate you coming on. How can people find out more about you? >> I think the best place is just go to my website, which is just marcbrackett.com. It's m a r c brackett, b r a c k e t t dot com.
(1:37:07) And then obviously my books are available. It's called Dealing With Feeling. That's my newest book. Um, that's kind of really kind of the what to do for our conversation, like how do you take it to the next level of learning the actual strategies. Um, the app is available, the How We Feel app. And, um, obviously I'm on social media, but, um, so websites, books, and social media.
(1:37:29) >> Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you.
No comments:
Post a Comment