Is your COOKWARE making you ill? Ft. Niharika Joshi @SohaAliKhanP
Author Name:Soha Ali Khan
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@SohaAliKhanP
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b8t7P45CXk
Title: Is your COOKWARE making you ill? Ft. Niharika Joshi @SohaAliKhanP
Author Name: Soha Ali Khan
Description: ALL ABOUT HER with Soha Ali Khan ft. Niharika Joshi | Is Your Cookware Making You Ill? | Cookware, Motherhood & Entrepreneurship
We spend so much time thinking about the food we eat but how often do we think about what we’re cooking it in? Could the cookware we use every day have an impact on our health? And with so many materials and claims around cookware, what should we actually be looking for?
In this episode of All About Her, I’m joined by Niharika Joshi, co-founder of Cumin Co., for a conversation about cookware, Indian cooking and the materials we use in our kitchens. We discuss aluminium, steel, cast iron and other cookware materials, concerns around potentially harmful substances, cookware maintenance and longevity, and whether “toxin-free” cookware is really more than just a marketing claim.
But Niharika’s story goes beyond the kitchen. She started Cumin Co. after becoming a mother, when questions about what she was bringing into her own kitchen eventually led her to build a business around healthier, more thoughtful cookware. We talk about her journey as a woman entrepreneur, motherhood, mom-guilt, work-life balance, equal parenting and what it’s like to have your spouse as your co-founder.
Most importantly, this episode is about making more informed choices about what we bring into our kitchens, how we build our careers and how we define “having it all.”
This episode is supported by Cumin Co.
Disclaimer: This episode is intended for educational and awareness purposes only. Discussions around cookware materials and health considerations are for general informational purposes and should not be considered medical advice. Please consult a qualified professional for personalised advice.
#AllAboutHer #SohaAliKhan #NiharikaJoshi #CuminCo #Cookware #HealthyCooking #IndianKitchen #Motherhood #Entrepreneurship #WorkLifeBalance #WomenEntrepreneurs #Podcast
📍 Whoppl Studios
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00:00 Upcoming
01:01 Introduction
02:39 Meet Niharika Joshi: co-founder, Cumin Co.
02:51 Is Cooking Your Love Language?
04:53 Are We Overthinking What We Cook With?
08:57 Why Indian Cooking Needs the Right Cookware
12:00 Aluminium, Steel & the Cookware Debate
13:50 Can Toxic Cookware Affect Your Health?
16:43 Cookware 101: Understanding Different Materials
17:57 Is “Toxin-Free” Just a Marketing Gimmick?
19:48 The Truth About Cookware Maintenance
21:30 The Reality of Being a Woman Entrepreneur
30:03 How Cumin Co. Came to Life
33:14 Can Motherhood & Ambition Coexist?
41:20 Equal Parenting & Building a Business With Your Partner
49:10 The 3 Pillars of Building a Business
51:04 What’s Your Ultimate Stress Buster?
54:05 How Long Does Your Cookware Actually Last?
55:33 A Message to My Daughter
57:17 One Thing You Should Change in Your Kitchen
58:18 Closing & Outro
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Produced By: Soha Ali Khan
Creative Producer & Writer: Bhumika Jethwa
Assistant DOP: Jimit Sondagar
Post-Producer & Editor: Yash Patel
✨ Follow Soha Ali Khan ⤵︎
Instagram: @sakpataudi
Twitter: @sakpataudi
Facebook: Soha Ali Khan
Transcript:
(00:02) Is nonstick quietly [music] making Indian kitchens sick? Or is toxin-free cookware just the next wellness panic looking for a product to [music] sell? >> Food cooked in an unhealthy pan looks exactly the same as food cooked in the [music] most healthiest pan. Indian cooking makes it even more exaggerated because of a bunch of stuff.
(00:19) Our cooking invariably is a very high heat cooking. Second is we have a very acidity high food. Teflon, aluminiums, worst [music] metal. Please don't use them at all. And when does lead poisoning happen? When you cook it in high heat, in acidity, high heat, autoimmune disease, neurodeenerative diseases, a lot of women have gut issues, a lot of women have infertility [music] issues.
(00:35) We were there in the kitchen one day, both of us looked at a pan and said, "Oh, damn." That was literally [laughter] the genesis of how it started. Titanium, by the way, is an extremely expensive [music] metal. You can make anything in titanium. Doesn't react at all. We also chose cast iron for that reason because cast iron has pores.
(00:49) Do share it with someone who is still doing [music] dry tka in a scratched up non-stick pan. >> [music] >> So, there's this term going viral on Instagram right now, Teflon flu. You overheat a non-stick pan and you can apparently get flu-l like symptoms just from the fumes. It sounds like clickbait until you realize the temperature at which our pan coatings start breaking down is roughly 260° C.
(01:22) And if you've ever done a dry zera turka in a hot karai, you know that that's not some extreme one-off. It's every day. At the same time, there is a wave of nostalgia running in the opposite direction. Reels of people using their grandmothers 40-year-old iron karai captioned with, you know, they don't make it like this anymore. Cast iron is heirloom and nonstick is, you know, it's checked out convenience that nobody questions.
(01:49) So, which one is actually true? Is nonstick quietly making Indian kitchens sick? Or is toxin-free cookware just the next wellness panic looking for a product to sell? Today, we're discussing not what we're cooking, but what we're cooking in, what's marketing, and what happens when the answer to is this healthy comes from the person actually selling it.
(02:11) This episode of All About Her is supported by Cumin, a brand re-imagining the Indian kitchen with thoughtfully designed toxin-free cookware made for everyday cooking. And what makes their story special is that it began with a simple question. Can the cookware we use everyday be healthier for our families? Hello and welcome to All About Her.
(02:30) And today we're talking about what's actually going on in your kitchen, cookware, chemicals, and the science and marketing around toxinfree cooking. So joining me is Niharika Jooshi, co-founder and CMO of Cumin Co. the enamel cast iron cookware brand that has become one of the loudest voices in India's toxin-free kitchen movement.
(02:49) Nihara, thank you so much for being here. I have to tell you actually when we were putting this together um I was having you know we had these school WhatsApp groups and everyone was talking about where do you get the best cake and where do you do this and somebody actually asked on the group you know what is a good cookware brand that I can use to cook in and more than once human was brought up just earlier this year so uh I felt very excited that we're having this conversation and I am not someone who steps into the kitchen a lot but
(03:17) I've understood that cooking uh is something that is very popular. A lot of people do it. A lot of people enjoy doing it. And every time I do step into the kitchen and make something, uh people engage with that content and they zoom into the content that I am, you know, whatever I'm doing and they actually notice everything that is around you in the kitchen.
(03:39) Things that you want them to notice, things that you don't want them to notice. So the last time I made some soup, they're zoomed in on all my cookware. some of the bowls that are not matching different sizes and people have comments in terms of you know you spend so much time and attention to the food that you're making but what about what you're cooking in um just as an opening question I thought do you spend more time than me in the kitchen >> um I definitely love cooking and I think that's one of the reason why we decided
(04:06) to start cumin in the first place that's kind of my belief start what you enjoy and what you love um so both Udit and I super fond of cooking eating uda panju so like That goes without saying that food is such a dominant part of our house. I do enjoy cooking I guess a little bit more like I like to cook at least once or twice in a week but uh most of it is outsourced to the guys who do a good job but yeah definitely a couple more times in a week for sure.
(04:28) >> Is there something that you like cooking more than >> I love doing breakfast like that's my scene and I've thought of it like at some point in my life that's my retirement plan that I've have a nice cute little breakfast place. I love doing toasties. I love doing all of that but uh I think Poha in specific is like my my sort of specialtity.
(04:45) Uh it's a yeah the staple that my husband loves. So yeah. >> So you of course said your husband is a punju and you >> so I'm from Uttarakhan. So I'm a kumi. >> Okay. Lovely. >> What people were commenting on when they said you know you cook in this you cook in that. What is the basic anxiety coming from when we cook in our cookware? What are people worried about now in terms of what is you know is poisonous the right word? Harmful the right word? I understand when you're cooking at high temperatures, especially when it comes
(05:12) to Indian food, uh the materials that we're cooking with might be causing a problem. I've also heard of a word called Teflon flu. I don't know if it's a it's just a social media construction. Um >> basically my question is are we >> exaggerating these claims of what we cook in makes a difference to our health or is there some real truth to that? >> Yeah, it for sure is.
(05:38) That's why brands like human code really exist. Um I would actually answer your first question which is around what's happening in the category overall. And I feel like the biggest challenge I foresee is trust. Now um and what that necessarily means is over the last couple of years if you see there's been like a gradual movement of clean living, healthy living, right? It started off with pulses and saying let's change the pulses.
(05:59) Let's change the sources of of of your vegetables. Let's start questioning the oils. Let's change it from like the initial ones to like the healthy option alternative and all of that. So you see across the entire food value chain everything is gradually getting changed and it's stopping at the last place where all of this is culminating into which is technically a cookware right you can change all of your let's say your sources of vegetable and sources of oils but if what you're cooking in is not healthy technically it belies the entire
(06:23) point of living a healthy lifestyle so I see that there's a gradual movement which is happening definitely a lot of the shift has been a very last five six year behavior co obviously accelerated most of the sort of health and wellness movements and this also was sort of one of them.
(06:39) Um what generally we observe in the categories there needs to be some inflection point. There needs to be some awareness that tends to happen because of which there's a lot of chatter, right? The thing which is technically tricky in our categories, it's all invisible. You don't know the risk, right? You can't apply a cream and say, "Oh my god, I had like boils and all of that." So, it's bad.
(06:56) In this, all of it is hidden. So, the sense of urgency in a category is negligible, right? Like food cooked in an unhealthy pan looks exactly the same as food cooked in the most healthiest pan, right? And you can't look at the two and see this is better and this is not. And that's the reason that our category has not seen that shift and gradually seeing so because now people have started questioning and saying okay done this this this but if I need to be even more healthier what else and sorry because I I know that you have a lot to say on this but you're saying
(07:20) so because the consumer is not even aware or educated then to start something in this arena is even more problematic because your first step is firstly to create an awareness as to why it's important >> and that's that's an additional challenge >> 100% and we are at a stage when We get this asked a lot that what is your biggest problem? Our biggest problem is the lack of awareness. Nobody knows.
(07:41) Nobody knows like the fact that there's something called a teflon flu or what it even looks like. People just say I had a cold but then they will not realize it correlates to something. Right. To your point about whether you know teflon flu and stuff like that. Is it a marketing gimmick? 100% not.
(07:57) These are teflon all of these PTFE pasa. All of these are chemically created coatings on top of cookware. They were never supposed to land there. They were supposed to be meant for military grade use. they somehow landed there because they made the process easier faster. They were trying to solve for a very different problem and people said great let's start putting it on cookware and see does it make it non-stick and does can we push it as a different sort of narrative altogether and there's a very interesting movie I suggest people watch
(08:20) on exactly this thing on how you know teflon and PDF started and these are very legit problems which now >> uh I'll speak about it separately and that's exactly where so Dupon was the one that that kind of started this entire quoting and they entirely productized it and what started as military moved somewhere into a kitchen so very legit problem but the Great thing is now people asking microplastic is a conversation PTFA Teflon is a conversation.
(08:44) So now that the awareness is seeping all of these challenges and problem which were always there are now coming in the four as well. So legit problem real problem but invisible so far but thank god that now there is so much chat and is about it that now it's kind of coming in the four as well. >> Yes.
(08:59) I mean I see these conversations also because we are mothers and we have children and you know when you have children you become even more concerned about um what is in the house. That's when you start going through the kitchens and your cabinets and seeing what has chemicals in it in a way that perhaps we didn't do or at least I didn't do uh when I didn't have a child.
(09:14) Um then when you know I was born I was like you know from the detergent to everything I became a little particular about that. So what is it that people are cooking in firstly in a majority of households. So for example the way that we cook you know we're we're using a lot of tempering of spices we're doing high fry high heat frying.
(09:32) Um is this problem just for Indian kitchens firstly and not western kitchens? Is it because of the way we're cooking our foods and what are you observing in the way that most people are cooking in their kitchens? >> Yeah. So the problem's fairly uniform. The bit that there are a couple of thing that exaggerate in Indian kitchen a little bit more.
(09:49) But that said a unhealthy coating in India is very much an unhealthy quoting in the states and all of that and that's where the movement in general teflon flu like productizing thing is a very like US thing right. So you will see a lot of these names given not from a lot of other countries but from there and that's a good thing that they are doing.
(10:03) So problem is uniform but Indian cooking makes it even more exaggerated because of a bunch of stuff. First our cooking in invariably is a very high heat cooking you know we don't do gentle pan searing we're not doing stuff like that a lot of our cooking requires somebody to be present and that's a shift between western kitchen and us a lot of them was baking is a very dominant factor of how they cook right because you can leave it 30 minutes later they'll come back there'll be a lot of you know boiling and let me make a stew and stuff like
(10:28) that something which can cook it in in its own time Indian kitchens on the other hand because we had large families we had a lot of help and support require things to be present which is why food is so complex as well as spices and processes and all of that stuff. There is a reason for all of that.
(10:42) So coming back to that point, what makes it complex? One is the very high amount of heat we require in general to make our food. Second is we have a very acidity high food. We'll use tomato, tamarind, lemon, curd, you know, stuff like that. And why these are important is because all of these are acids and they will leech.
(10:58) So the quality of your base metal has to be extremely important. The third one and it's a very I feel like a very modern lifestyle sort of a thing is that you're technically outsourcing. So somebody else is taking care of it. they'll have 1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever. So there's a lot of aggressive movement that happens. All of these thing combined result into the state of a cookware really really being very important because a lot of people nest not looking at what's happening in the kitchen, right? Like for us um and I come from a family of bureaucrats and we
(11:21) had this beautiful ecosystem that was supporting us. We didn't spend a lot of time in the kitchen. We didn't know what was happening. We knew fundamentally there is this is good quality food and this and that. We didn't learn about the fact that this is how you maintain a cast iron and likewise and all of that.
(11:33) And I feel like a lot of these things are now getting amplified because folks like us who have no context are now running households our mothers knew [laughter] but we don't know right and that's kind of resulting into a lot of these things getting even more amplified for us. So to answer that question yes the kind of cooking we do definitely impacts the fact that the coating comes off faster.
(11:54) It scratches very easily and there's a lot of leeching which is why what you're cooking in honestly is more important than perhaps in any other country. Yeah. >> But does this also refer to like you know the aluminium steel kai that we have that we've inherited from our grandmothers? That's also a problem. >> It is. So I'll speak of that.
(12:09) So I'll tell you cookware has two layers. There is a base metal and there's a coating on top. Traditional Indian cooking was done with a base metal. You'll have iron, you'll have brass and all of that stuff which is great if you can maintain it right. It requires powders. It requires all of that.
(12:23) Now if you can't maintain it then it's a very very problematic sort of utensil to use because in generally in general if you're not maintaining it well all of that rusting and everything is gradually getting into your food and that's kind of where it is kind of getting amplified. The fact that now maintenance has become a very big part of it because it's outsourced also impacts the quality of the utensil.
(12:40) Now stainless steel great metal and stainless steel was a result of the modern lifestyle so to speak right from a base metal to a mixed composition metal this is technically what stainless steel is but the nuance that people miss out >> that's right that means that it's easier to maintain stainless steel right it's more >> stainless steel is easier to maintain but the challenge with stainless steel is it should be changed every seven years because a metal is a metal it will degrade over the period of time and if you are still using let's say high heat
(13:04) cooking and if you're using acidic food while it is great initially over the period of time it will gradually start disintegrating And there is stuff like nickel, cadmium, stuff that necessarily wouldn't seem anything but then in trace amounts over the period of cumulative period of time is getting into your body which is necessarily not the healthiest.
(13:20) So what you should also do is look at the general duration of how long a cookware should be used and make sure that you trash them right teflon aluminium. So aluminium by the way by design worse metal please I mean if you have it in your kitchens kindly and if you have kids and elderly parents please don't use them at all.
(13:36) SS is great, stainless steel is great, but that also has to be certain quality and after a certain period of time should be thrown. All of this is an information unfortunately that's not there in the in the kitchens these days and people don't know that which is why a lot of these problems are getting amplified a lot more.
(13:50) >> Can you um touch a little bit I know that um you're not a doctor but could you touch a little bit on time the health concerns that will be presenting themselves from ingesting these things? Um you know we talked about teflon flu and coals and things like that but also nickel these uh metals that if they're present like now we know plastic bottles there was a time when we would say a kapan put it in a bottle have whatever your biscary etc and now people are aware that microplastics are a problem and ingesting it plastics are there in
(14:19) our clothes as well and there's a little bit of awareness now but perhaps that's also just for a certain amount of the audience can you touch on some of the health risks that you are exposing yourself to >> yeah so I'll definitely speak of this from our research about the category and you know the experts that we work with.
(14:33) Um couple of things see the biggest challenge out here is the problem of compounding right is the fact that something used over the period of time while seems extremely small over the period of time will impact your body. So there are a couple of metals which in general invariably do have an impact right your lead nickel cadmium these are these are called heavy metals heavy metals in very small percentage in your body are fine right if you see ayurveda also and for anyone who's a practitioner will know that a lot of ayurveda
(14:58) medication does require heavy metal and hence has to be very closely administered nobody can just take it right so these thing do end up playing some role right like and I will not name the metal out there but there is one specific kind of metal looks like gold looks beautiful but that's there because it has lead in it and Everyone knows lead poisoning and when does lead poisoning happen? When you cook it in high heat, in acidity, high food, right? So the way the cooking Indian cooking happens does have a huge role to play in
(15:23) how all of this is gradually getting into a pro into a body and this over the period of time compounding compounding does have an impact. So we've done a very interesting study and we just did this called the state of the kitchen study where we said we make all of these claims there is no body sadly in India that governs.
(15:38) So we said let us put ourselves under a little bit of scrutiny and say are we doing the right thing? I'm a mother. I call it a baby safe food, but is it genuinely something that I should be comfortable making? So, we work with a third party and we said this is a cookware. These are eight, nine different other cookware.
(15:52) Please do an independent study. So, over the period of I want to say two and a half, three odd months, they made a lot of different kind of foods, different temperature, different climates, all of that stuff. And they figured a lot of these other things which are gone or the cookware available in our kitchen, all of them were leeching metal which will never ever end up landing.
(16:09) And it is so harmful. It causes autoimmune disease, neurodeenerative diseases. Um, a lot of women have gut issues. A lot of women have infertility issues. And all of them when you tie back is because of presence of certain things which should not be in your body, right? You can't correlate and say it's only this because your water could be bad. Your air is bad.
(16:26) I'm based out of gura like our air is just anyone's guess. But all of this we tend to blame it on something else. But we don't realize the one thing which impacts the most is the quality of food that we ingest. So yeah, >> I mean you're saying like the quality of air we may not be able to control but at least the things that we have control over we can exercise things.
(16:43) I'm just thinking about if someone is watching this and standing in their kitchen right now and if they're looking at their cookware you know you have steel, you have nonstick, you have ceramic. Is there some kind of hierarchy that you can put these um you know materials in? >> Yeah, I'm going to put this only in the quality of the output and not in terms of price point and ease of maintenance.
(17:00) Only whether they are healthy or not. The very first is enamel cast iron. That's exactly why we chose cast iron because it really holds the coating really well. Enamel because an inert non-reactive coating. So that is highest. Next is a very high grade of steel. So steel uh has different gradations.
(17:17) So 304 or 316 is extremely high quality of steel. That is the next one, right? And ensure that not every steel lands in the kitchen. The one after that then would be preseasoned cast iron and you should only end up using it if you don't if you don't have sufficient amount of iron. Why I say that is iron overdose is also a problem. So don't cook in iron cookware if you already have the suffion amount.
(17:34) It does have an impact. And then there is ceramic. In all honesty, a lot of ceramic research is still happening. Uh it is a chemical coating at the end of the day. So I will let the jewelry be out. But in terms of teflon being the lowest, definitely ceramic lands a little better. So enamel cast iron followed by stainless steel higher quality followed by preseason cast iron followed by ceramic and then the lowest would be teflon on aluminium.
(17:58) Um you know one question that we always ask uh especially when we're partnering with people is that um for our savvy audience who says you know the question is being raised by someone who's also providing the answer here and you referred to a study that you've done which is very useful.
(18:11) I my question was going to be is there a body that regulates and you you know like f FSSAI is now talk there's so much talk about how restaurants are um substandard you know food is not of quality and we really want to have a podcast on that also um but uh there's no regulating body when it comes to cookware this independent study I think is is very important in terms of answering that question how do you um tell people that you know if I'm marketing something that is toxin-free as a brand how do I convince you that this is actually something that is
(18:41) evidence- based and not just something that I'm claiming. >> Correct. So couple of things out here. The sources of metal is definitely something that India is regulating at this point. There is certain amount of quoting that your or certain amount of chemicals your quoting should not have at all which is now getting regulated but to a very large extent it is sadly a very unregulated market which is why disproportionately high amount of lead and nickel in a lot of cookware which shouldn't even land there. What does
(19:05) exist is there are a lot of these global compliance bodies, right? You have your FDA, it's a it's a US-based food based compliance. What it requires is food cook. They test the quality of food, not necessarily the cookware, which technically is the end output, right? So they see if something is cooked on that quoting, is it good or not? So when we were making human, the idea was very clear that let's see if we can expose ourselves to all three of these global bodies and see how we fare.
(19:28) So we were at least when we launched the only Indian company to be USFDA certified EC1935204 and LFGB. So EC is a European uh uh uh compliance and your LFGB is a German. LFGB is very difficult to attain. So there are these global standards which are there. I feel India is catching on for sure.
(19:47) Um but I feel we have a lot of work to do there for sure. >> Before we move to um you know why this company and how you've built it together with UDIT I just wanted because you referred to it in the beginning we might patch this in earlier in terms of how people can maintain their cookware. you referred to seven years for stainless steel and um you know of course enamel having a longer shelf life.
(20:06) Um are there ways that people can better maintain their pots and pans at home? >> Yeah. So I think couple of things and at least that's what I follow personally. Please do all of your research. I mean as always is my recommendation to everyone. See most of the cookware has a certain process to follow. So anything which is a coating has a certain amount of gives and gets which would mean don't use a steel bowl.
(20:25) Don't aggressively scratch it. Right? like there are these basic care which goes with most of these coating and it's it's with these cookware and it's always good to go back to them and see what exactly they are base metals generally need to be maintained very well so if you have iron if you have brass if you have SS stainless steel all of them need to be maintained a certain way which means that especially for cast iron and all they need to be uh with a specific way of cleaning your brass and all of that requires pithamri there's a very
(20:48) specific powder do follow that SOP it ensures integrity of the utensil and second is most of the base metal generally after certain duration of time five plus years is the you know ballpark uh you know recommendation again do your research generally lands to be when the material would start disintegrating which is when you can assess now this is if you're cooking a lot if you're not somebody who's using your utensils a lot uh you know perhaps it is good to go but the cookware will tell you if it is ready to be thrown to be very honest
(21:15) like that's the most basic thing I can say if your teflon pans and non-stick pans if they have scratches please throw it the base metal for sure is aluminium not worth it so everything if you just open your drawer look at your utensils. They don't look nice. Please throw them. For sure.
(21:29) They are not of the quality that you expect them to be. >> Right. Um, how many years old is Cuban now? >> So, we're a little shy of a year and a half. We're about to complete 18 months. >> So, it's your it's your second baby. >> It is my second baby. >> And I want to ask you because this is something that you're doing with your spouse. Um, right.
(21:44) >> Yes. I mean your co-founders and um >> the working with your spouse I mean I >> um and my spouse are in similar professions but we don't actively work together. We did one collaborative project together which was writing a children's book. Uh it was challenging. It's it's uh I mean to choose to you know work with your husband um requires I think there has to be clarity in terms of division of labor perhaps someone's strengths and weaknesses um but anyway this podcast is not about me it's about you um how have you managed to figure
(22:19) out how to do that in a way that works efficiently >> yeah so and I decided to start cumin not because we were partners and it felt comfortable but the fact that we brought these complimentally skills and we he is fantastic at something and I'm fantastic at something and when we were looking at together we felt like everything that we would look for in a co-founder would pretty much end up making sense and that was a a decision we made where see at the end of the day it is a it is a business outcome right and if you're not adding value
(22:47) from a from an uh from a quality of you know input perspective then it doesn't make sense to do it together so we did spend a lot of time deliberating should we do it should we not do it we know both of us are very very different people you know anyone in my team will look at us and say oh my god they're such a diverse personality.
(23:02) So we did deliberate a lot and we said does it make sense to do it together and we like you know typical MBA guys one night 2 a.m. we took a piece of paper pros cons and then we figured the end outcome is perhaps romantic. >> It [laughter] is it is after 10 years >> and then we once he did that we felt like it made sense and it's I could respect a lot of his business decisions in the field that he's amazing at and likewise and that's how we just kind of decided to do it.
(23:26) >> Tell me about your background. So he has a background in finance. So both of us are MBA grads. We studied from the same college. We were from ISB Hyderabad. Um he has built his career as a consultant. So he used to work in Middle East. He was in Mastercard. He was in Pathanon. That's kind of been his experience.
(23:40) I've always been at the business end of stuff. So I've been the revenue person. I worked at Microsoft, Meta, Uber. Uh and my very last gig was at Noise right before this. So this is kind of our collective experience. So business strat at one end and then GTM and revenue at the other. That's how we >> So that's how you um divide as you said your strengths and weaknesses.
(23:59) You are able to handle different worlds. >> Yeah. >> And and and that complements each other. But um do you feel because this is called all about her, we sort of I'm a little um let's say I have a soft spot for women and I feel like we sometimes are unable to um celebrate our successes or you know we put ourselves last or we don't sometimes speak loudly um for various reasons and everyone who's come here has had different reasons.
(24:29) Uh I I wanted to ask you personally without assuming anything. Do you ever feel as a co-founder to a man who happens to be your husband? Does it does that label of being the founder's wife uh has that ever presented itself as something that a challenge that you have to face? Has anyone not taken you seriously because you're married to the founder? >> Yeah, I feel mostly people who end up do meeting me uh don't call me the co-founder's wife.
(24:53) They do realize is for sure the founder. But I feel a lot of this stigma being there. I wouldn't say very often because again I think especially the in the field and the space that we are in people do understand and they've gone through your backgrounds and stuff but there is some bit of stigma that exists interestingly I was in a meeting right before this it's a fairly large hotel chain and the first question the gentleman asked me uh heads procurement oh where is your your your husband and he expected the husband to be there I said my husband takes care
(25:18) of product and finance I take care of money and revenue and he was very surprised that I'm the one who is taking care of all of this and it's a question they ask and they expect that you know a lot of roles I wouldn't say all them but in some of them they do end up asking you know where's your co-founder they assume him to be the serious co-founder and stuff like that but um I kind of I've always in my career been in roles and I've been in all sorts of setup where where I feel like I've I've generally been in roles which are
(25:41) predominantly male-dominated um at a point in time when I was a team of 100 people where I was the only female and I was 25 at that point in time and uh you know you just you just learn to figure how that goes so yes there is a lot of stigma you can't help it's somebody's perception it's how you handle it yourself and I feel like um you know once if you have that capability and if you have something that kind of comes onto that table it's very evident that you add value and I feel like anybody who comes and meets us will 100% give
(26:06) equal respect to Udit what he does versus what I end up doing so we don't get this later but yes it is it is something it is a lot of people do have that sort of stigma that kind of goes with that and I think that's okay >> you know because you said also when you were younger when you were 25 you found yourself in these kinds of corporate environments and I feel like a lot of young women um also perhaps experience that.
(26:29) Is there some advice that you can give them um in terms of how they can find a voice when they feel like they're being dismissed or there's an element of sexism or there's an element of mansplaining. It's much easier said than done. And perhaps there are people with the benefit of, you know, a solid education, perhaps the right family environment growing up.
(26:50) Um they they're more e easily able to do that. Um perhaps you and I more easily able to do that. But what if someone is struggling? What are some things that might help them? >> See, the most interesting thing that I found is women, girls in general are okay not saying stuff, >> right? And however cliche it might sound, but like good girls don't win.
(27:09) And they don't if you don't raise your voice, if you don't call out when something of the sort happens, you will not get what you want. Like it's very it's a very small thing that I do and I do it generally when my daughter's around is that guards of a building have a habit of saying they'd call sir uh you know, good morning sir.
(27:25) They'll call me sir and I have to say no sir is for a guy. Madam is there and now my daughter started picking up and when they do it she started calling that out. See the point is you have to have a voice. You have to call out a BS when that BS is happening. If you don't do that you'll not get it. You have to snatch that opportunity and that stands everywhere.
(27:39) Perhaps for women we have to be a little bit more >> in grabbing that opportunity when we get that and don't feel shy of saying that oh you know I'm not getting uh attention and cry about it later. >> You know it's it's brutal in the business world especially in the space that we are in. It's brutal.
(27:54) Men have to fight for it. Women have to fight for it. Don't put yourself at a at a lower level. So, you have to have a voice. You have to flag it off. Don't cry about and speak to your girlfriends later about the fact that somebody spoke to me. If it happens, call out that because what happens? You're not changing their perception.
(28:07) You're building your own confidence about it. And the more confident you become that every time something of the sort is happening, I can and I should raise a voice and it's fine. Even if there is a rebuttal, I know how to take care of it. I feel it'll change you as an individual. And then over the period of time again compounding you will become a very different person who will know how to command for space in the world that you must right I feel like that's my advice that >> this is compounding as opposed to compounding
(28:30) >> it is um but you know it's so true we had a conversation also with Fay Duza and Pali Sharma remember them sitting here talking about women in the media as well and Fay said that um when she was in a similar situation if she was in a boardroom and there were a lot of men she would use a tactic like just standing up she's also petite um in height like like myself, she said she would stand up and make herself be heard, especially if somebody was trying to drown out your voice.
(28:54) And I thought that those were things that were um that really stood out or that she didn't um she wore the similar clothes, especially when she's presenting news on on on screen, for example, because then the attention is just about what she's saying and not what she's wearing. And for a lot of female um you know anchors and media presenters it tends to be oh she was wearing a beautiful sari um or that there has to be a man who's who's covering serious news.
(29:19) So I think now the landscape is changing more and more women are in positions. Um we want them to be in decision-m in you know positions that you're in uh for example they're getting there but all this kind of talk I think will really help them uh in terms of not being afraid to use their voice not being afraid to uh not be considered good.
(29:39) That narrative is changing a little bit and examples like you I think will be will be very helpful I think for people to see. Um, you know, you talked about your daughter, for example, and setting the right example for her. And I talked about as a mother, how I think I've become a better version of myself, at least when she's awake.
(29:54) When she goes to sleep, then um it's it remains to be seen whether I can maintain that or not. Uh, but at least while she's awake, I'm definitely the best version of myself. the reason to start Cuban also you're both doing it as co-founders udith and yourself but where did the genesis of the idea come from and how much of that was connected to your daughter and you know you being a mother >> so interestingly how human started was we were there in the kitchen one day and we both of us looked at a pan and said
(30:24) oh damn that was [laughter] literally the genesis of how it started so see both of us very busy careers right we typical corporate folks traveling a lot working a lot and uh it was it wasn't until we had a little one that we started spending a lot more time in the kitchen. We would as much as we would love food, we didn't have the time for it.
(30:42) So, we wouldn't cook as much, right? And just like order it and all of that. But after Tusa was born, that's my that's my daughter's name. Um so, we started making a lot. And there was something that Udit was making one day, an omelette in specific, one of the pans, and there were these speckles of black which was sticking onto it. And you know, that was very surprising.
(30:57) He said, "What is this?" The cook said, "No, no, just brush it off and you can serve it on the table." And called me and he said oh damn what is this this is not how our utensil should be and that kind of led us onto this journey because I personally believe that I feel still honestly as as if you till you don't have kids you don't necessarily care right you're anyways consuming all sorts of stuff that is not necessarily great for your body but after you have a child you become responsible for somebody else right your decision have an impact on
(31:22) the quality of life they will so then we said no this this doesn't do it we can't not stop looking at the kitchen then we pulled out our drawers that day looked at every single utensil and it spent like honestly it was I always say that human started as a personal journey. We weren't looking to start a business and say okay let's do this.
(31:38) We said we want healthy clean cookware for our families. U let's see what makes sense and then we started ordering from everywhere right like every brand you can name of and think of we have it in our in our kitchens. I have like my kitchen is overflowing with stuff. And then we tried and tested and researched and then we figured there's very few utensils which are making sense in the kind of lifestyle we have.
(31:57) We have fast-paced lifestyle. We want healthy products. We but we don't have products that cater to that. So at the whole soul of it we still say that tissu was the one who got us on that. If it weren't to be the case I don't. Yeah. Um we have a very interesting thing called the home test in our in our uh inum where unless a food has been cooked or a new utensil unless we cook our food in it and this food is not cooked in it I don't launch it in the market.
(32:20) I I feel tremendously high amount of sort of baggage onto myself to say I can't let anybody else's kid eat in that unless I can make my own child's. So we do this with every single utensil however small it is. So that's that's the way we're building it. >> So what are the different kinds of products that are available? >> Yeah.
(32:35) So we have we're building a kitchen ecosystem. We started with cookware. We have enamel cast iron both heavy and light. Now we're launching a new series as well. Um we have tools. So we have chopping boards. We have spatulas. We have we have recently launched these beautiful Damascus steel knives as well. We also have very recently launched storage because you said micro plastics.
(32:54) We figure a lot of storage is happening in plastic tupperware where God knows why people are still using that like good for them whoever they are but it is not the best for hot food. It is leeching stuff inside. So then we launched a new series of storage and then we also have bake wear and stuff as well. >> So yeah the idea is to make a healthy Indian kitchen which has every utensil that you might need.
(33:15) How does it work in terms of um again these are questions that I find that are deeply personal to me but I also feel that a lot of people now are living similar lives to perhaps you and me um women are working they're also managing things at home um they may have support at home they may not have support at home but they certainly are coming to a space now where their lives as mothers their lives as business owners or you know whatever professional capacity they are in are sort of um reaching apexes at similar times and women unfortunately have to make choices
(33:50) that men don't have to. You know, the choice to become a mother often coincides with, you know, a promotion at at work. How do you manage? Do you have a supportive environment at home, I'm saying that for someone who wants to also be involved in a work in in work and your daughter is young. you've chosen to start a business um which involves a lot of your presence and time at an age where presumably she also requires supervision.
(34:17) >> So how do you figure that? So see my fundamentals are very clear at least when we started building um this will always be the whole soul of it right she has to we when we started building we said she has to be on this journey with us so we made our office 5 minutes away from our house we said anytime she needs we try to pick her up from uh once the bus comes as often as we can I have this rule in my office that irrespect of whatever's happening if this calls I have to pick it up I've had board meetings where I picked up a call and
(34:44) initially people would find it a little weird because we're not used to seeing stuff like that I said I have to normalize I need to have people get comfortable with the fact that I do have a child to take care of and she's very young and she needs my attention and we need to be able to normalize that part. I want this to be a very dominant part of it.
(35:03) My child can come to my office anytime. I made a room in my office for anyone who's a mother and we have like I think three four in the office now and we said at any point you're stuck. You don't have help and support please get this room is meant for kids all sorts of stuff there. So you can't be in denial of the fact that you have a life and that you have a child and you have to pretend that you know that's like not something that you know impacts the quality of your output.
(35:24) So we made sure that everything is we are building transparently uh the child has access to our office any point she wants and that's kind of that that is something that ends up making things a little easier. I will highlight though that it's not possible to do what at least we are building and we are doing at this point in time without support.
(35:42) I mean, I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing everything and I'm juggling. I have an insanely large support system. I have my in-laws close to, they are two buildings away. My parents are 5 minutes away. And I use them very generously. See, if I have ambition in life, I can't pretend to do it all. I will burn out.
(35:55) And that's not how it's supposed to be. You should be 100% asking for help and support. And there's nothing wrong in that. If your ambition, your family, your child, everything has to move in tandem. Understand there is an ecosystem that needs to be there, right? We do need to rough it out. If you do that right, please will make it possible for you to be able to aspire that you can have a bigger life.
(36:17) Right? So at least that's something that we did where we leverage our ecosystem really well and our parents are very deeply ingrained in everything we do. Um my parents are taking care of my little one right now while I'm while I'm here. [clears throat] And uh also the fact that we're building accommodating a lot of that stuff, right? Accommodating her presence and her needs and her requirements.
(36:33) And I feel like if you're able to do that, that's why we able to do it with joy. Otherwise, I felt like I would be like that for her to be able to ask and when she does I don't even hesitate and I get that. >> So many questions. One was uh connected to your experience in corporate sectors before this. I mean as a founder you have a certain element of control over the work environment that you've created.
(37:01) Um you've had the ability to create that environment close to home which is the dream. Um and then to be able to have you know whether it's a crush or whether it's a a room that you have for similar you know mothers who then at least don't feel physically torn sometimes when your child is very young that is the dream again in terms of your experience in corporates in India up until this point all the experience that you've had before this was that missing is that something that you find is people are are becoming more cognizant of or is it still sort of a farway
(37:34) dream. That was one question. The other was the one about guilt. Um, which I think is something that people, it's just something even if the world around you, you know, does not put that pressure on you as mothers, as working mothers, we do feel torn. And I've understood with all my wisdom now that the trick is to actually enjoy being where you are because then what's the point? Then it just sucks, right? If you're with your child and you're thinking about work and if you're at work and you're thinking about your
(38:05) child, you're not doing justice to either. Much easier said than done. Um, of course, my life comes with a lot of privilege and I understand that that might be a section of our, you know, viewers who might have privilege. A lot of them don't and they say, you know, that's easy for you to say, but so perhaps to reach those people as well.
(38:26) So, the first question is about the corporate structure. What are things like are things improving? What are things that you would like to see being replicated in corporate sort of? >> So, right before Cumin, in fact, like a couple of years ago, I did start like this side gig uh called the project asked me and the intent of that was to bring women uh return to women uh back to the workforce.
(38:48) So, that was this entire project where I figured post I became a mother that a lot of women had fallen off the corporate radar and they wanted to get back but they just didn't know how. And these are people with my sort of a background. Extremely sharp, confident, very smart bunch of women. But again, see the point is a lot of it is it is the families that you're brought up in.
(39:07) The way you've seen your mothers, the way you've seen the role of of your father and your mother, the dynamics around you, right? Like you can study from wherever, but if the dynamics is such a lot of it does end up sitting, right? I feel like I I parent a lot like my mother and then I consciously have to correct myself for the things that I don't align with.
(39:23) But that does tend to happen. A lot of that benchmarking does happen. diplomatically put >> my mother might be listening to this. [laughter] So uh so with all of that you do have this perception of okay women should step off the radar women should do all of that stuff right um the thing that I figured once I was doing ask me is two three things most women uh just didn't know how to get back to it because they required a very different kind of a work environment they did want to work right a lot of them took like a year and a half two years at best and they're like
(39:49) okay now I want to do something but I don't want to go to a full-blown job I do want to do something part-time and I figure that a lot of people just weren't aware of a lot of stuff which was there there were so many of these organization which had these part-time remote job options all of that stuff.
(40:02) So we went through a lot of time explaining people right I became like a guidance counselor to them to say uh you know you do have a 4-hour work option you don't have to be a full-time you could just become that. So I feel it's it's two things right now. One, I think there should be a lot more conversation about different kind of work options in general because not everyone seeks the same amount of corporate ladder movement, right? And that should be visible.
(40:22) The second thing that I kind of feel is corporates themselves should require because they do need that, right? Even in the small organization that I have of 50 60 people. I do need different kind of people. I don't need full-time people all the time. And if that's the thing, then we should be putting it out there, right? I feel like corporate should also look at restructuring and there are some fantastic ones like we worked with Accenture very very closely and Accenture did have this return to women a return to work sort of a program for
(40:44) women right so I feel like a lot of that enablement should happen from the corporate side as well where they put it out there to say okay I do have a unique requirement and let me build and structure for just this specific kind of work uh requirement that women have so I feel like yes a lot of work to be done happening it's going to be a long journey I feel but um what I definitely see from the time I started ask me to at least right now lot of flexibility lot of flexibility of work people are a lot more aware than a lot of avenues behans
(41:12) fiverr a lot of people I know in general are looking at you know kind of uh freelancing across those channels so I feel like lot of awareness in general in the space right now >> that's amazing I I want to ask at at home um you know how do you handle things at home in terms of conversations with your daughter when you can't be there for something that she wants you to be there for for example which must happen there must be times when even if you have the most efficient system um for whatever reason you can't be present
(41:39) do you handle that with udith and yourself do you have a conversation with your daughter do you how have you set up home duties because I feel like in the workplace like we were discussing perhaps there is some awareness of bringing women back to work after they become mothers for example but in the home what the the equal parenting at home or the equal distribution of domestic duties I feel that conversation is a little lagging in India um in all circles Um now whether it's about a certain conditioning of their masculine duties
(42:09) and feminine duties play party you know whatever play dates birthday parties you'd hardly see fathers they're not on the WhatsApp groups there are one or two examples you know but um mot like that so what are your thoughts on that >> I don't think there's anything called equal parenting that just like my POV we might not be the most popular thing but I feel like at any given point in time >> uh there will always be a lack of balance up and down and that is fine and that is parenthood and that's what you figure out together right um so to give
(42:44) an example last month Udit was traveling the entire time and he was out a lot um and I was the one who was holding for I said great you know it will happen and then there is this month where I'm traveling a lot and we have this beautiful arrangement that we have between both of us where we understand that at no point in time should we demand 5 hours by you and 5 hours by me if you've done that you can't parent Well, right.
(43:04) Then it's not joyful parenting. The way we've done it, we figured out what we enjoy and we don't enjoy. I love teaching my daughter. I love teaching her math. I love doing all of that. >> But does she enjoy learning from you? I also enjoy teachable but she doesn't enjoy it. >> The only one who can make her learn by the way is me.
(43:19) Everyone else has raised the hand and I said only you do it. Which is what I said greater do it. So I come back early from the office. There are two hours that I spend with her where I'm just teaching her. I don't like waking up in the morning. So that's Udit's space. So we've done this demarcation where mornings are udits through and through and he does all of that and not because he's like oh you have to wake up and we don't have this he knows that like I don't enjoy it and we've done this beautiful demarcation where he because he uh starts early he
(43:41) also goes to office early and then we've done the split to say some days you start early and then some days I start early so that way I think what is very clear for us as a as parents is we have to be present for a child as much as possible and then let's figure within that what do you need to do what do I need to do and communicate at points it'll be more for me it'll be more for But that's fine. That's parenthood.
(44:00) >> I feel brushed over it. But is it complicated working with someone that you're married to? Also tell me about the times where there is some conflict or you have to draw some boundaries, rules perhaps that you know um you put in there like again I feel like when we were writing this book together, Kunal and I um the genesis of the book came from him.
(44:19) I was a published author before that. So I felt like I had more swag in terms of like I'm I have got a connection with Penguin etc. Uh but he's also a dialogue writer and a script writer now. um and he has a lot of emotion in his writing. I have a lot of I think language skills in terms of making it look pretty and bringing some cohesion structure to the story.
(44:37) Um but there were there was friction in terms of who was bringing more to the table. Um what skills get whether they're 50/50 in terms of recognition and credibility and things like that. These are just I mean silly things but we've stopped at three books. We've realized that we can't go more than three.
(44:52) Um you guys have a longer journey I feel ahead of you in in Cumin as opposed to the Indian Bobo series which has retired now. Um so tell me about moments of like friction. >> See it's de never easy for sure. Like we are very very different people like I love talking I love chatting. I'm also very aggressive.
(45:12) I'm the one who sets the pace in the company so to speak right like I'm the taskmaster. Odit on the other hand. So it was his idea the the entire fact that we should build in this space and researching and he's the one who by the way has made all the products so it is his space and what we've kind of done this way really well is draw this fine line of saying you do this you're the last person who has a say here so I don't speak about products it is his space he's the domain holder I don't get into it and then there are things between us um but you do tend to
(45:37) clash a lot it's very difficult especially in fact what's gotten even more amplified is uh what used to be just home clashes sometimes is you will have work clashes and it is bound to happen with any two people who work together, spouse or no spouse, right? And the tricky thing is how do you carry it home without doing all of that? And we've had, by the way, and just being extremely extremely candid.
(45:57) We've had fights at home that we necessarily would not have wanted a little one to be privy to. And we realized that this is not how you can build a company. The day we felt like this is going to be in the long haul. This is our life. It can't be like it was before that you can switch off in a minute and say, "Okay, corporate's done.
(46:13) Now you're back home and it's fine. It's somebody else's problem." this is going to be alive for a while now, right? So, we have to learn to be able to work and that's where we started figuring out we need to draw that line. Is it easy? No. Like we can see each other like mumbling in the corner and we like oh there's a fight at work and we don't know how to process it at home.
(46:28) But what we have set a very very clear rule is that we have to leave it at the door >> and then we will pick it up after she wakes up and because after she sleeps because in all fairness you can't there are some decisions which have to be solved for then and there but you have to also do it in a way that is respectful to your house ecosystem.
(46:42) Right? I'm very high on energy. If you carry that energy it will somewhere reflect in your house in the way things are your child I have a help all of that stuff will it'll reflect right so the point it is our because it is our house we are the ones who will set the pace for it so while we don't enjoy it a lot of times we do have to draw that line is it a journey we walk through for sure we've had like multiple conversations where we've kind of come back home and then we like oh we can't have it in front of this but I feel like that's
(47:07) what the last one and a half years is and now we have the sweet spot >> um where we understood what are the gives and gets of working with your partner but I I think um respecting him as a partner and respecting him as a as a founder like that's very important right uh because there's a two level of respect that has to happen initially was just one and it is even more complicated and two when you know that something that you might not agree to might be happening but it's important to draw that line so I feel uh it's a journey
(47:31) that we are walking through for sure >> for a woman I feel who's watching this who is perhaps considering starting something with her partner what is one I mean you've you've touched on a few of them but perhaps what is like one honest warning that you would give her before she goes into this. >> See, it's a very difficult journey.
(47:47) Anything if you're starting from inception is going to be very very very complicated and trying and testing. Don't get into it because it seems easy to start with your partner but because you have something to add because that euphoria of comfort will go very fast and then the reality of starting the business will come in because it is going to be complicated.
(48:04) They're going to be harsh decisions. There will be difficult decisions and you'll have to stand your ground. Um so I think one of the things to know is that it will be complicated. If anything is not peaceful and not fine or whatever, don't jump into it because then you're asking for a lot more level of complexity to come in.
(48:20) The second thing is if you if you can't value your partner both ways. In fact, especially given how a lot of dynamics are, if if your partner [clears throat] cannot value you or your husband cannot value your personal or your professional expertise, if you sense that, please don't get into it because it will even get amplified later.
(48:37) So my two advice would be this. It is complicated. do knowing like it's similar to technically having a child it's not easy so you have to be okay with the fact that there will be trial stipulations and this is what you're getting into and second is extremely high level of professional trust because now you're getting into a different territory altogether where you have to respect somebody's expertise so if neither of them exist I would suggest rethink and reconsider >> it's interesting that you compared it to having a child because a lot of people
(49:00) say when there's friction in a marriage or have a child but nobody says start a company but they should really think about it in the same way because you're just uh opening up Another um area of a friction. Uh even if you're not if you're starting a company without your husband, if you want to found something, you know, how do you know that you have an idea that actually has business legs? For somebody who perhaps has an idea, who's standing in their kitchen or in their, you know, on their balcony, what is your advice for someone who, you
(49:27) know, as a woman in her late 30s wants to start something? >> So ideas are just ideas unless you don't start executing. If you don't take it to the step after that and the step after that, you will keep mulling over it. And I've had so many people around me come and say, "My god, fantastic idea and great AI tool and this and that.
(49:45) " Said, "What did you do?" Nothing. Great presentation. But business has so many complex layers. Your idea is the smallest of them. If anything, what was human when we began and we still go back to there's this like thing that we've kept in in our house which says the first business plan that we made between the both of us to where human is right now.
(50:02) It's a very different business altogether. And the point is you will have to walk that journey if you a lot of people overromanticize output to say let me perfect my product let me perfect my idea let me get the absolute right thing >> it will not happen you should >> like I feel there are two inflection points in any business if you have an idea just execute with the very first step make your website make your app make your product whatever you have to do get it tested from a customer the first thing is going to be when you bring something of that idea to life and
(50:28) the second part is going to be when you put it in front of the customer both are going to be very brutal your customers will come back and say either it's fabulous or it is horrible and then if you have the guts to it you will refine it or you will tank it. >> So unless you start fast you either will not fail fast or you will not succeed fast but the the the pace of taking that idea and moving it to execution is the entire game.
(50:49) >> Who was the first person you bounced this idea off? >> My sister I do all like I have a elder sister my god like she's just the soul of everything that I do and I bounce off every single idea with her and she said this seems interesting. She still has my first testo product. >> Oh, nice. Nice.
(51:06) Um, in terms of uh being so busy when you are working then when I mean I feel like you know we've talked about this also in the past. There's no such thing as a non-working mother firstly. I mean we don't understand that definition of working mother. It's just certain work is paid and certain work is unpaid.
(51:22) But life is busy for you I'm sure. How do you protect your personal space? like what are some things that you do actively for your um just stress busting things stuff when you're anxious about something how do you protect your personal space >> so I figure two three things about myself and I feel like it's a very post 30 post 35 journey I feel like um a lot of who you are as person what you need to do well you will realize this so I figure like I need some of my people I need some of my friends I need do need to talk to them I do need to meet them
(51:51) so that is something that I very actively try to do even if I have a hectic schedule and I have the best bunch bunch of people they accommodate their lives for me and they will come to where I am instead of asking to meet somewhere else. I feel like that's a very important part of what I think is really helping me do well.
(52:05) And the second important thing is I need that peace in the morning because I'm not a morning person and thankfully it's domain. I do need that sort of one one and a half hours where I'll just like read a book or I'll just do my things or I'll go for a walk or I'll work out whatever. I need that that pace down in the morning because once I do I'm either zero or 100 and that is just my understanding of who I am as an individual.
(52:26) For people it may vary but you need to find your oasis and even in this kiosk um because you can't thrive you can't do well if you don't get your space for yourself it could be half an hour and that's fine but find what gives you a lot of joy and do that >> I feel like a lot of people don't do that because you know and then then they do burn out because um it seems like an indulgence you know on top of all of this then where's the time for me and for a lot of people it tends to be late at night also I feel like when the house goes to sleep when my daughter's gone to
(52:52) bed when my husband is you scrolling on his phone or whatever, that's when I'll do something, but that might be too late in the day. I think it's great that you've chosen the morning. >> The very interesting thing, by the way, we hear a lot from a lot of our customers is exactly this, that cumin gives me that time to myself.
(53:06) Like a lot of people might not cook a lot, but because there is this beautiful, gorgeous cookware that really makes you feel like, oh my god, everything, however bad a recipe might be, the output will be fantastic. They come back and we've had these amazing DMs from people saying, thank God you've made that 30 minutes in my day when I used to cook really joyful.
(53:24) It's felt like it's my time, it's me time, it's made cooking so wonderful and uh yeah, I feel like a lot of people do look at cooking as their sweet spot and they look at that time where they can recoup and I'm happy we can play a part in that. We had such a a lovely conversation again with two chefs in terms of cooking and I um again had asked them um you know what do you think about people who say you should never cook when you're angry and it was interesting because I said but it doesn't matter because when you start cooking
(53:49) >> it's a channel for that anger. If you're in a bad mood and if you really focus and you're cooking you're doing something you love it goes away and it's a stress buster for so many people. >> So I think that time you know for some people it's in the bathroom for some people it's in the kitchen for very different reasons.
(54:04) Um, but it's so nice to do that because you said that and we were talking about this a little earlier in the conversation. How long will the products from Cumin last then? If we're changing some of our products in 5 years, 7 years, does that does is it about being durable? Is it about being toxin-free? What is the the USP? Yeah.
(54:22) So, how Cumin has built their product is to fundamentally solve for toxicity plus durability. So, all of enamel cast iron series has a 10-year warranty. So the way we build the coating and that's what I was saying that we have three patents to our to our name right now and one of the patent is for the enamel coating that we've developed.
(54:38) We call it Envirroax and that has trace amount of titanium added in such a way that gives it a lot more durability. Titanium by the way is an extremely expensive metal. It's an absolutely inert metal. Absolutely. It is non-reactive. You can make anything in titanium. Doesn't react at all.
(54:53) Um and we've added that titanium in that amount just to make it a little bit more hardy as a as a metal. We also chose cast iron for that reason because cast iron has pores. So your coating is not afust to be native to what we do. We don't want to say no plastic in our packaging so we sustainable. If it's not there in your product, you're not sustainable.
(55:17) That's what my personal belief is and that's how we build the product as well. So they are supposed to last 10 year and 10 years. So anytime there's a problem, we we're very very open to anyone coming back and saying if at all there is any chipping, we don't even blink an eye and we return that. We get it replaced.
(55:31) Wonderful. Yeah. >> Um as a closing one of the closing questions I thought I would ask you if your daughter is watching this or when she's old enough perhaps to understand your journey. She's probably already because I love that you are living your journey as a professional as well as a mother in front of her.
(55:47) So she's obviously seeing a lot of this develop. And as we know children don't learn from you teaching them with words. They learn by just their sponges. So they watch and they learn that okay my father going to work is a visual but my mother going to work is also a visual. I mean for me growing up my only visual is my mother going to work because my father was a professional athlete.
(56:04) So he'd retired so he was at home all the time. So for me you know choosing to work or having being a mother and working was never really something that I had to fight in my own mind first to justify. It was already something that existed and I'm surrounded by lots of women. So I feel like your daughter will have that visual.
(56:22) Uh but is there something that you hope that she will learn from watching you build a company? You know something values about you know on entrepreneurship, what it means to be a woman, having your voice, someone who will have her own dreams one day. What is something that you hope that she will learn? >> Yeah, I think if there's one thing that I really really wish she learns and I keep trying to teach her is to persevere.
(56:45) I feel there is there is just one trick to success in life for anything is you have to be so resilient. You have to be so persevering. That is the only way things happen. And I want her to to know that her mother was someone that who kept on trying and who kept on who kept on pushing the boundaries and saying okay this is not enough. I want to try something else.
(57:00) It could be anything. Whatever she chooses. Not to say that she has to be a corporate person. She could become something else altogether. But I want I would love for her to say that I want to be resilient like my mother. I want to persevere like my mother. And I feel like if these two are things that she's able to learn from me, I am fairly certain she'll have a fantastic fantastic life which I'm sure either way she will.
(57:18) actually have another closing question for you which I feel like if you could address perhaps people watching and perhaps share with them if you could get every Indian kitchen to change just one habit. Um I'm not talking about them buying a different product but perhaps something that you've observed in Indian kitchens a habit that people are doing that you would like them to change.
(57:36) What would that be? >> I think a lot of our problems are hoarding related. We'd like to keep things like you've been to my kitchen. [laughter] >> We like to store a lot. We like to keep a lot of things which are from before. I think we have a major attachment issue as people in general and a lot of those things are not supposed to be there because we hold a lot we will buy a lot we will keep a lot uh we will also not replace we will not also give out I feel like it's a very small thing to change but it will change with how consciously
(58:01) you will end up purchasing if you let go of this habit uh and a lot more thoughtfully perhaps >> I feel like I must visit your kitchen and just see >> it has so many products from competition by the way we keep testing stuff out >> but that is good you must keep your enemy close right >> [laughter] >> But uh thank you so much.
(58:18) I feel that you know um every time I have conversations about health and nutrition I feel like I've learned so much but the basics um of what you're cooking in and also just being aware. I feel like we delegate so much and as you said cooking is something where you have to be so present especially when it comes to Indian cooking but we outsource so much and most of us again if we're working mothers cooking is something that someone else is doing and it's nice sometimes to go do it yourself observe see what you're using and how much of
(58:46) that is actually part of the healthy infrastructure that you think you're building and you know maybe it's time to make a change. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We have a rapid fire for you which I'm going to try and read without my glasses. >> Okay. Uh, what's harder, pitching to investors or negotiating with your child? >> I think I can pitch to my investors because I've learned to negotiate with my child.
(59:03) >> Have you learned Wait till she becomes a teenager. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. Which is happening now much earlier by the way. [laughter] >> I'm exhausted by the end of the day when it comes to like just constantly. >> It is. >> And also you have a girl and that's I mean I just want to say I think that they're >> I just spoke to her by the way and I was talking about something.
(59:20) I said, "Mom, I think you're digressing." I said, >> "Wow, I love her." >> She literally >> used the word digressing. She did. She's brutal. She's so sassy. It is fantastic. >> I love it. I love [laughter] it. Um, what's one work habit your family wishes that you would leave at the office? >> I think checking on my phone.
(59:36) It's a bad habit. Uh, but yeah, I try to keep my phone away, but I think it's around me at all points. >> How to not make it a part of your infrastructure. Even in told this to me the other day and this morning I left it in my room. I've ordered uh just a digital alarm clock because I feel from the moment my alarm is set on my phone and then from then it's just I'm checking my WhatsApp.
(59:56) I'm not scrolling Instagram but I'm working and she doesn't know what I'm doing. She now is aware of Instagram. So she's she thinks I'm like a phone is fun and how to explain to her no I'm doing research and so I really try not to take it into the room now >> an alarm clock. >> That's important. Yes. >> Um one parenting lesson that's made you a better founder.
(1:00:15) I think you have to be very um fulfilled as a as a parent. If you have a child, you have to be fulfilled as a parent to be able to do a good job as a founder if you like your child. Like a lot of people don't and they're fine. But I feel like if you really care about your child and and if you feel like that's a part that you value, I think if you don't give that enough attention, you will always feel guilt and you always feel like [clears throat] you're missing out.
(1:00:36) So fulfill yourself here to fulfill yourself in the other aspect of your life. >> Very good advice. Um, one founder lesson that has made you a better parent. >> Uh, sorry, one founder, uh, >> one founder lesson. So, one was a parenting lesson that made you a better founder. One is a founder lesson, um, business lesson that you're using with your daughter.
(1:00:55) >> Um, the fact that there will be a lot of mistakes and there will be failures and then you can always correct. >> Yes. >> And like it tends to happen with me like if say and there will be times something happens and I'll scold this one and I'll be like, "Oh my god, end of the world." and I realized no it will go back to it because it is just a part of the journey and there will be other other conversations and she will learn something from it from it but like the absence of finality of something but generally when I was an early parent I
(1:01:20) used to feel a lot I think that's one thing that business has taught me there's nothing called final it always keep on evolving and changing >> and and and I think there's a lot of comfort in that everything is a phase >> yes >> um what's the first thing you do when you finally get an hour completely to yourself but you've taken that hour first thing in the morning so >> I sleep I'm very sleepd deprived these days.
(1:01:41) So yeah, I think if I get any time at all, I like to play some nice music. I'll mostly doze off. Uh yeah, that's my sweet spot. This is assuming I've spent a lot of time with my child, but once I just have time to myself, I sleep. Yeah. >> Um but I think the art of napping is a skill that most people should master because it makes you more efficient and I think it's one of those things that people >> do not take seriously.
(1:02:03) >> I've in inherited it from my mom. She can have anywhere on the planet. Great. I'm very happy I have those jeans with myself. >> Embrace that. Never give it up. Um, coffee, quiet or chaos? What the best describes your morning? So, is it chaotic? Is it quiet? >> It is very chaotic for sure. Like it will start with coffee because generally some work meal something else has broken. So, it starts with coffee.
(1:02:26) I'll take a little bit of zen time during that time and then the chaos begins. Has to begin at some point. >> Nice. What's bedtime for you? >> 12 1. Are >> you making that up? just presenting a >> generally I I do tend to sleep late but generally tends to go to 2 three also but I'm trying to like now consciously sleep better sleep like I said I'm perpetually sleepd deprived but yeah the hours are are chaotic at this point >> no lovely as there should be and it's only one and a half years into Cuban you have a lot more to go um it's going
(1:02:55) beyond just one or two products to a whole infrastructure that you're creating in a kitchen so I again I wish you all the best >> thank you thank you thank you for taking the time so co supported today's conversation But the questions were ours and I hope that what you're taking away isn't buy this pan.
(1:03:12) It's what's actually in the one that you already own. Toxin-free is a real conversation. It's not just a label. And the only way to tell the difference is to ask for the paperwork, not just the promise. So, please do go into your into your kitchens, check your pans, and see their state and whether you need to upgrade. Thank you, Niharika, for your vision, and I wish you all the best with the company.
(1:03:32) Um, thank you for answering all the hard questions as well as the the normal ones. And if this at home made you look at your own kitchen differently, do share it with someone who is still doing dry tadka in a scratched up non-stick pan. And thank you all for joining me on All About Her. Until next time, stay informed, stay healthy, and we'll see you in the next episode. [music]
Author Name:Soha Ali Khan
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@SohaAliKhanP
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b8t7P45CXk
Title: Is your COOKWARE making you ill? Ft. Niharika Joshi @SohaAliKhanP
Author Name: Soha Ali Khan
Description: ALL ABOUT HER with Soha Ali Khan ft. Niharika Joshi | Is Your Cookware Making You Ill? | Cookware, Motherhood & Entrepreneurship
We spend so much time thinking about the food we eat but how often do we think about what we’re cooking it in? Could the cookware we use every day have an impact on our health? And with so many materials and claims around cookware, what should we actually be looking for?
In this episode of All About Her, I’m joined by Niharika Joshi, co-founder of Cumin Co., for a conversation about cookware, Indian cooking and the materials we use in our kitchens. We discuss aluminium, steel, cast iron and other cookware materials, concerns around potentially harmful substances, cookware maintenance and longevity, and whether “toxin-free” cookware is really more than just a marketing claim.
But Niharika’s story goes beyond the kitchen. She started Cumin Co. after becoming a mother, when questions about what she was bringing into her own kitchen eventually led her to build a business around healthier, more thoughtful cookware. We talk about her journey as a woman entrepreneur, motherhood, mom-guilt, work-life balance, equal parenting and what it’s like to have your spouse as your co-founder.
Most importantly, this episode is about making more informed choices about what we bring into our kitchens, how we build our careers and how we define “having it all.”
This episode is supported by Cumin Co.
Disclaimer: This episode is intended for educational and awareness purposes only. Discussions around cookware materials and health considerations are for general informational purposes and should not be considered medical advice. Please consult a qualified professional for personalised advice.
#AllAboutHer #SohaAliKhan #NiharikaJoshi #CuminCo #Cookware #HealthyCooking #IndianKitchen #Motherhood #Entrepreneurship #WorkLifeBalance #WomenEntrepreneurs #Podcast
📍 Whoppl Studios
————————————————————-
00:00 Upcoming
01:01 Introduction
02:39 Meet Niharika Joshi: co-founder, Cumin Co.
02:51 Is Cooking Your Love Language?
04:53 Are We Overthinking What We Cook With?
08:57 Why Indian Cooking Needs the Right Cookware
12:00 Aluminium, Steel & the Cookware Debate
13:50 Can Toxic Cookware Affect Your Health?
16:43 Cookware 101: Understanding Different Materials
17:57 Is “Toxin-Free” Just a Marketing Gimmick?
19:48 The Truth About Cookware Maintenance
21:30 The Reality of Being a Woman Entrepreneur
30:03 How Cumin Co. Came to Life
33:14 Can Motherhood & Ambition Coexist?
41:20 Equal Parenting & Building a Business With Your Partner
49:10 The 3 Pillars of Building a Business
51:04 What’s Your Ultimate Stress Buster?
54:05 How Long Does Your Cookware Actually Last?
55:33 A Message to My Daughter
57:17 One Thing You Should Change in Your Kitchen
58:18 Closing & Outro
——————————————————————-
Produced By: Soha Ali Khan
Creative Producer & Writer: Bhumika Jethwa
Assistant DOP: Jimit Sondagar
Post-Producer & Editor: Yash Patel
✨ Follow Soha Ali Khan ⤵︎
Instagram: @sakpataudi
Twitter: @sakpataudi
Facebook: Soha Ali Khan
Transcript:
(00:02) Is nonstick quietly [music] making Indian kitchens sick? Or is toxin-free cookware just the next wellness panic looking for a product to [music] sell? >> Food cooked in an unhealthy pan looks exactly the same as food cooked in the [music] most healthiest pan. Indian cooking makes it even more exaggerated because of a bunch of stuff.
(00:19) Our cooking invariably is a very high heat cooking. Second is we have a very acidity high food. Teflon, aluminiums, worst [music] metal. Please don't use them at all. And when does lead poisoning happen? When you cook it in high heat, in acidity, high heat, autoimmune disease, neurodeenerative diseases, a lot of women have gut issues, a lot of women have infertility [music] issues.
(00:35) We were there in the kitchen one day, both of us looked at a pan and said, "Oh, damn." That was literally [laughter] the genesis of how it started. Titanium, by the way, is an extremely expensive [music] metal. You can make anything in titanium. Doesn't react at all. We also chose cast iron for that reason because cast iron has pores.
(00:49) Do share it with someone who is still doing [music] dry tka in a scratched up non-stick pan. >> [music] >> So, there's this term going viral on Instagram right now, Teflon flu. You overheat a non-stick pan and you can apparently get flu-l like symptoms just from the fumes. It sounds like clickbait until you realize the temperature at which our pan coatings start breaking down is roughly 260° C.
(01:22) And if you've ever done a dry zera turka in a hot karai, you know that that's not some extreme one-off. It's every day. At the same time, there is a wave of nostalgia running in the opposite direction. Reels of people using their grandmothers 40-year-old iron karai captioned with, you know, they don't make it like this anymore. Cast iron is heirloom and nonstick is, you know, it's checked out convenience that nobody questions.
(01:49) So, which one is actually true? Is nonstick quietly making Indian kitchens sick? Or is toxin-free cookware just the next wellness panic looking for a product to sell? Today, we're discussing not what we're cooking, but what we're cooking in, what's marketing, and what happens when the answer to is this healthy comes from the person actually selling it.
(02:11) This episode of All About Her is supported by Cumin, a brand re-imagining the Indian kitchen with thoughtfully designed toxin-free cookware made for everyday cooking. And what makes their story special is that it began with a simple question. Can the cookware we use everyday be healthier for our families? Hello and welcome to All About Her.
(02:30) And today we're talking about what's actually going on in your kitchen, cookware, chemicals, and the science and marketing around toxinfree cooking. So joining me is Niharika Jooshi, co-founder and CMO of Cumin Co. the enamel cast iron cookware brand that has become one of the loudest voices in India's toxin-free kitchen movement.
(02:49) Nihara, thank you so much for being here. I have to tell you actually when we were putting this together um I was having you know we had these school WhatsApp groups and everyone was talking about where do you get the best cake and where do you do this and somebody actually asked on the group you know what is a good cookware brand that I can use to cook in and more than once human was brought up just earlier this year so uh I felt very excited that we're having this conversation and I am not someone who steps into the kitchen a lot but
(03:17) I've understood that cooking uh is something that is very popular. A lot of people do it. A lot of people enjoy doing it. And every time I do step into the kitchen and make something, uh people engage with that content and they zoom into the content that I am, you know, whatever I'm doing and they actually notice everything that is around you in the kitchen.
(03:39) Things that you want them to notice, things that you don't want them to notice. So the last time I made some soup, they're zoomed in on all my cookware. some of the bowls that are not matching different sizes and people have comments in terms of you know you spend so much time and attention to the food that you're making but what about what you're cooking in um just as an opening question I thought do you spend more time than me in the kitchen >> um I definitely love cooking and I think that's one of the reason why we decided
(04:06) to start cumin in the first place that's kind of my belief start what you enjoy and what you love um so both Udit and I super fond of cooking eating uda panju so like That goes without saying that food is such a dominant part of our house. I do enjoy cooking I guess a little bit more like I like to cook at least once or twice in a week but uh most of it is outsourced to the guys who do a good job but yeah definitely a couple more times in a week for sure.
(04:28) >> Is there something that you like cooking more than >> I love doing breakfast like that's my scene and I've thought of it like at some point in my life that's my retirement plan that I've have a nice cute little breakfast place. I love doing toasties. I love doing all of that but uh I think Poha in specific is like my my sort of specialtity.
(04:45) Uh it's a yeah the staple that my husband loves. So yeah. >> So you of course said your husband is a punju and you >> so I'm from Uttarakhan. So I'm a kumi. >> Okay. Lovely. >> What people were commenting on when they said you know you cook in this you cook in that. What is the basic anxiety coming from when we cook in our cookware? What are people worried about now in terms of what is you know is poisonous the right word? Harmful the right word? I understand when you're cooking at high temperatures, especially when it comes
(05:12) to Indian food, uh the materials that we're cooking with might be causing a problem. I've also heard of a word called Teflon flu. I don't know if it's a it's just a social media construction. Um >> basically my question is are we >> exaggerating these claims of what we cook in makes a difference to our health or is there some real truth to that? >> Yeah, it for sure is.
(05:38) That's why brands like human code really exist. Um I would actually answer your first question which is around what's happening in the category overall. And I feel like the biggest challenge I foresee is trust. Now um and what that necessarily means is over the last couple of years if you see there's been like a gradual movement of clean living, healthy living, right? It started off with pulses and saying let's change the pulses.
(05:59) Let's change the sources of of of your vegetables. Let's start questioning the oils. Let's change it from like the initial ones to like the healthy option alternative and all of that. So you see across the entire food value chain everything is gradually getting changed and it's stopping at the last place where all of this is culminating into which is technically a cookware right you can change all of your let's say your sources of vegetable and sources of oils but if what you're cooking in is not healthy technically it belies the entire
(06:23) point of living a healthy lifestyle so I see that there's a gradual movement which is happening definitely a lot of the shift has been a very last five six year behavior co obviously accelerated most of the sort of health and wellness movements and this also was sort of one of them.
(06:39) Um what generally we observe in the categories there needs to be some inflection point. There needs to be some awareness that tends to happen because of which there's a lot of chatter, right? The thing which is technically tricky in our categories, it's all invisible. You don't know the risk, right? You can't apply a cream and say, "Oh my god, I had like boils and all of that." So, it's bad.
(06:56) In this, all of it is hidden. So, the sense of urgency in a category is negligible, right? Like food cooked in an unhealthy pan looks exactly the same as food cooked in the most healthiest pan, right? And you can't look at the two and see this is better and this is not. And that's the reason that our category has not seen that shift and gradually seeing so because now people have started questioning and saying okay done this this this but if I need to be even more healthier what else and sorry because I I know that you have a lot to say on this but you're saying
(07:20) so because the consumer is not even aware or educated then to start something in this arena is even more problematic because your first step is firstly to create an awareness as to why it's important >> and that's that's an additional challenge >> 100% and we are at a stage when We get this asked a lot that what is your biggest problem? Our biggest problem is the lack of awareness. Nobody knows.
(07:41) Nobody knows like the fact that there's something called a teflon flu or what it even looks like. People just say I had a cold but then they will not realize it correlates to something. Right. To your point about whether you know teflon flu and stuff like that. Is it a marketing gimmick? 100% not.
(07:57) These are teflon all of these PTFE pasa. All of these are chemically created coatings on top of cookware. They were never supposed to land there. They were supposed to be meant for military grade use. they somehow landed there because they made the process easier faster. They were trying to solve for a very different problem and people said great let's start putting it on cookware and see does it make it non-stick and does can we push it as a different sort of narrative altogether and there's a very interesting movie I suggest people watch
(08:20) on exactly this thing on how you know teflon and PDF started and these are very legit problems which now >> uh I'll speak about it separately and that's exactly where so Dupon was the one that that kind of started this entire quoting and they entirely productized it and what started as military moved somewhere into a kitchen so very legit problem but the Great thing is now people asking microplastic is a conversation PTFA Teflon is a conversation.
(08:44) So now that the awareness is seeping all of these challenges and problem which were always there are now coming in the four as well. So legit problem real problem but invisible so far but thank god that now there is so much chat and is about it that now it's kind of coming in the four as well. >> Yes.
(08:59) I mean I see these conversations also because we are mothers and we have children and you know when you have children you become even more concerned about um what is in the house. That's when you start going through the kitchens and your cabinets and seeing what has chemicals in it in a way that perhaps we didn't do or at least I didn't do uh when I didn't have a child.
(09:14) Um then when you know I was born I was like you know from the detergent to everything I became a little particular about that. So what is it that people are cooking in firstly in a majority of households. So for example the way that we cook you know we're we're using a lot of tempering of spices we're doing high fry high heat frying.
(09:32) Um is this problem just for Indian kitchens firstly and not western kitchens? Is it because of the way we're cooking our foods and what are you observing in the way that most people are cooking in their kitchens? >> Yeah. So the problem's fairly uniform. The bit that there are a couple of thing that exaggerate in Indian kitchen a little bit more.
(09:49) But that said a unhealthy coating in India is very much an unhealthy quoting in the states and all of that and that's where the movement in general teflon flu like productizing thing is a very like US thing right. So you will see a lot of these names given not from a lot of other countries but from there and that's a good thing that they are doing.
(10:03) So problem is uniform but Indian cooking makes it even more exaggerated because of a bunch of stuff. First our cooking in invariably is a very high heat cooking you know we don't do gentle pan searing we're not doing stuff like that a lot of our cooking requires somebody to be present and that's a shift between western kitchen and us a lot of them was baking is a very dominant factor of how they cook right because you can leave it 30 minutes later they'll come back there'll be a lot of you know boiling and let me make a stew and stuff like
(10:28) that something which can cook it in in its own time Indian kitchens on the other hand because we had large families we had a lot of help and support require things to be present which is why food is so complex as well as spices and processes and all of that stuff. There is a reason for all of that.
(10:42) So coming back to that point, what makes it complex? One is the very high amount of heat we require in general to make our food. Second is we have a very acidity high food. We'll use tomato, tamarind, lemon, curd, you know, stuff like that. And why these are important is because all of these are acids and they will leech.
(10:58) So the quality of your base metal has to be extremely important. The third one and it's a very I feel like a very modern lifestyle sort of a thing is that you're technically outsourcing. So somebody else is taking care of it. they'll have 1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever. So there's a lot of aggressive movement that happens. All of these thing combined result into the state of a cookware really really being very important because a lot of people nest not looking at what's happening in the kitchen, right? Like for us um and I come from a family of bureaucrats and we
(11:21) had this beautiful ecosystem that was supporting us. We didn't spend a lot of time in the kitchen. We didn't know what was happening. We knew fundamentally there is this is good quality food and this and that. We didn't learn about the fact that this is how you maintain a cast iron and likewise and all of that.
(11:33) And I feel like a lot of these things are now getting amplified because folks like us who have no context are now running households our mothers knew [laughter] but we don't know right and that's kind of resulting into a lot of these things getting even more amplified for us. So to answer that question yes the kind of cooking we do definitely impacts the fact that the coating comes off faster.
(11:54) It scratches very easily and there's a lot of leeching which is why what you're cooking in honestly is more important than perhaps in any other country. Yeah. >> But does this also refer to like you know the aluminium steel kai that we have that we've inherited from our grandmothers? That's also a problem. >> It is. So I'll speak of that.
(12:09) So I'll tell you cookware has two layers. There is a base metal and there's a coating on top. Traditional Indian cooking was done with a base metal. You'll have iron, you'll have brass and all of that stuff which is great if you can maintain it right. It requires powders. It requires all of that.
(12:23) Now if you can't maintain it then it's a very very problematic sort of utensil to use because in generally in general if you're not maintaining it well all of that rusting and everything is gradually getting into your food and that's kind of where it is kind of getting amplified. The fact that now maintenance has become a very big part of it because it's outsourced also impacts the quality of the utensil.
(12:40) Now stainless steel great metal and stainless steel was a result of the modern lifestyle so to speak right from a base metal to a mixed composition metal this is technically what stainless steel is but the nuance that people miss out >> that's right that means that it's easier to maintain stainless steel right it's more >> stainless steel is easier to maintain but the challenge with stainless steel is it should be changed every seven years because a metal is a metal it will degrade over the period of time and if you are still using let's say high heat
(13:04) cooking and if you're using acidic food while it is great initially over the period of time it will gradually start disintegrating And there is stuff like nickel, cadmium, stuff that necessarily wouldn't seem anything but then in trace amounts over the period of cumulative period of time is getting into your body which is necessarily not the healthiest.
(13:20) So what you should also do is look at the general duration of how long a cookware should be used and make sure that you trash them right teflon aluminium. So aluminium by the way by design worse metal please I mean if you have it in your kitchens kindly and if you have kids and elderly parents please don't use them at all.
(13:36) SS is great, stainless steel is great, but that also has to be certain quality and after a certain period of time should be thrown. All of this is an information unfortunately that's not there in the in the kitchens these days and people don't know that which is why a lot of these problems are getting amplified a lot more.
(13:50) >> Can you um touch a little bit I know that um you're not a doctor but could you touch a little bit on time the health concerns that will be presenting themselves from ingesting these things? Um you know we talked about teflon flu and coals and things like that but also nickel these uh metals that if they're present like now we know plastic bottles there was a time when we would say a kapan put it in a bottle have whatever your biscary etc and now people are aware that microplastics are a problem and ingesting it plastics are there in
(14:19) our clothes as well and there's a little bit of awareness now but perhaps that's also just for a certain amount of the audience can you touch on some of the health risks that you are exposing yourself to >> yeah so I'll definitely speak of this from our research about the category and you know the experts that we work with.
(14:33) Um couple of things see the biggest challenge out here is the problem of compounding right is the fact that something used over the period of time while seems extremely small over the period of time will impact your body. So there are a couple of metals which in general invariably do have an impact right your lead nickel cadmium these are these are called heavy metals heavy metals in very small percentage in your body are fine right if you see ayurveda also and for anyone who's a practitioner will know that a lot of ayurveda
(14:58) medication does require heavy metal and hence has to be very closely administered nobody can just take it right so these thing do end up playing some role right like and I will not name the metal out there but there is one specific kind of metal looks like gold looks beautiful but that's there because it has lead in it and Everyone knows lead poisoning and when does lead poisoning happen? When you cook it in high heat, in acidity, high food, right? So the way the cooking Indian cooking happens does have a huge role to play in
(15:23) how all of this is gradually getting into a pro into a body and this over the period of time compounding compounding does have an impact. So we've done a very interesting study and we just did this called the state of the kitchen study where we said we make all of these claims there is no body sadly in India that governs.
(15:38) So we said let us put ourselves under a little bit of scrutiny and say are we doing the right thing? I'm a mother. I call it a baby safe food, but is it genuinely something that I should be comfortable making? So, we work with a third party and we said this is a cookware. These are eight, nine different other cookware.
(15:52) Please do an independent study. So, over the period of I want to say two and a half, three odd months, they made a lot of different kind of foods, different temperature, different climates, all of that stuff. And they figured a lot of these other things which are gone or the cookware available in our kitchen, all of them were leeching metal which will never ever end up landing.
(16:09) And it is so harmful. It causes autoimmune disease, neurodeenerative diseases. Um, a lot of women have gut issues. A lot of women have infertility issues. And all of them when you tie back is because of presence of certain things which should not be in your body, right? You can't correlate and say it's only this because your water could be bad. Your air is bad.
(16:26) I'm based out of gura like our air is just anyone's guess. But all of this we tend to blame it on something else. But we don't realize the one thing which impacts the most is the quality of food that we ingest. So yeah, >> I mean you're saying like the quality of air we may not be able to control but at least the things that we have control over we can exercise things.
(16:43) I'm just thinking about if someone is watching this and standing in their kitchen right now and if they're looking at their cookware you know you have steel, you have nonstick, you have ceramic. Is there some kind of hierarchy that you can put these um you know materials in? >> Yeah, I'm going to put this only in the quality of the output and not in terms of price point and ease of maintenance.
(17:00) Only whether they are healthy or not. The very first is enamel cast iron. That's exactly why we chose cast iron because it really holds the coating really well. Enamel because an inert non-reactive coating. So that is highest. Next is a very high grade of steel. So steel uh has different gradations.
(17:17) So 304 or 316 is extremely high quality of steel. That is the next one, right? And ensure that not every steel lands in the kitchen. The one after that then would be preseasoned cast iron and you should only end up using it if you don't if you don't have sufficient amount of iron. Why I say that is iron overdose is also a problem. So don't cook in iron cookware if you already have the suffion amount.
(17:34) It does have an impact. And then there is ceramic. In all honesty, a lot of ceramic research is still happening. Uh it is a chemical coating at the end of the day. So I will let the jewelry be out. But in terms of teflon being the lowest, definitely ceramic lands a little better. So enamel cast iron followed by stainless steel higher quality followed by preseason cast iron followed by ceramic and then the lowest would be teflon on aluminium.
(17:58) Um you know one question that we always ask uh especially when we're partnering with people is that um for our savvy audience who says you know the question is being raised by someone who's also providing the answer here and you referred to a study that you've done which is very useful.
(18:11) I my question was going to be is there a body that regulates and you you know like f FSSAI is now talk there's so much talk about how restaurants are um substandard you know food is not of quality and we really want to have a podcast on that also um but uh there's no regulating body when it comes to cookware this independent study I think is is very important in terms of answering that question how do you um tell people that you know if I'm marketing something that is toxin-free as a brand how do I convince you that this is actually something that is
(18:41) evidence- based and not just something that I'm claiming. >> Correct. So couple of things out here. The sources of metal is definitely something that India is regulating at this point. There is certain amount of quoting that your or certain amount of chemicals your quoting should not have at all which is now getting regulated but to a very large extent it is sadly a very unregulated market which is why disproportionately high amount of lead and nickel in a lot of cookware which shouldn't even land there. What does
(19:05) exist is there are a lot of these global compliance bodies, right? You have your FDA, it's a it's a US-based food based compliance. What it requires is food cook. They test the quality of food, not necessarily the cookware, which technically is the end output, right? So they see if something is cooked on that quoting, is it good or not? So when we were making human, the idea was very clear that let's see if we can expose ourselves to all three of these global bodies and see how we fare.
(19:28) So we were at least when we launched the only Indian company to be USFDA certified EC1935204 and LFGB. So EC is a European uh uh uh compliance and your LFGB is a German. LFGB is very difficult to attain. So there are these global standards which are there. I feel India is catching on for sure.
(19:47) Um but I feel we have a lot of work to do there for sure. >> Before we move to um you know why this company and how you've built it together with UDIT I just wanted because you referred to it in the beginning we might patch this in earlier in terms of how people can maintain their cookware. you referred to seven years for stainless steel and um you know of course enamel having a longer shelf life.
(20:06) Um are there ways that people can better maintain their pots and pans at home? >> Yeah. So I think couple of things and at least that's what I follow personally. Please do all of your research. I mean as always is my recommendation to everyone. See most of the cookware has a certain process to follow. So anything which is a coating has a certain amount of gives and gets which would mean don't use a steel bowl.
(20:25) Don't aggressively scratch it. Right? like there are these basic care which goes with most of these coating and it's it's with these cookware and it's always good to go back to them and see what exactly they are base metals generally need to be maintained very well so if you have iron if you have brass if you have SS stainless steel all of them need to be maintained a certain way which means that especially for cast iron and all they need to be uh with a specific way of cleaning your brass and all of that requires pithamri there's a very
(20:48) specific powder do follow that SOP it ensures integrity of the utensil and second is most of the base metal generally after certain duration of time five plus years is the you know ballpark uh you know recommendation again do your research generally lands to be when the material would start disintegrating which is when you can assess now this is if you're cooking a lot if you're not somebody who's using your utensils a lot uh you know perhaps it is good to go but the cookware will tell you if it is ready to be thrown to be very honest
(21:15) like that's the most basic thing I can say if your teflon pans and non-stick pans if they have scratches please throw it the base metal for sure is aluminium not worth it so everything if you just open your drawer look at your utensils. They don't look nice. Please throw them. For sure.
(21:29) They are not of the quality that you expect them to be. >> Right. Um, how many years old is Cuban now? >> So, we're a little shy of a year and a half. We're about to complete 18 months. >> So, it's your it's your second baby. >> It is my second baby. >> And I want to ask you because this is something that you're doing with your spouse. Um, right.
(21:44) >> Yes. I mean your co-founders and um >> the working with your spouse I mean I >> um and my spouse are in similar professions but we don't actively work together. We did one collaborative project together which was writing a children's book. Uh it was challenging. It's it's uh I mean to choose to you know work with your husband um requires I think there has to be clarity in terms of division of labor perhaps someone's strengths and weaknesses um but anyway this podcast is not about me it's about you um how have you managed to figure
(22:19) out how to do that in a way that works efficiently >> yeah so and I decided to start cumin not because we were partners and it felt comfortable but the fact that we brought these complimentally skills and we he is fantastic at something and I'm fantastic at something and when we were looking at together we felt like everything that we would look for in a co-founder would pretty much end up making sense and that was a a decision we made where see at the end of the day it is a it is a business outcome right and if you're not adding value
(22:47) from a from an uh from a quality of you know input perspective then it doesn't make sense to do it together so we did spend a lot of time deliberating should we do it should we not do it we know both of us are very very different people you know anyone in my team will look at us and say oh my god they're such a diverse personality.
(23:02) So we did deliberate a lot and we said does it make sense to do it together and we like you know typical MBA guys one night 2 a.m. we took a piece of paper pros cons and then we figured the end outcome is perhaps romantic. >> It [laughter] is it is after 10 years >> and then we once he did that we felt like it made sense and it's I could respect a lot of his business decisions in the field that he's amazing at and likewise and that's how we just kind of decided to do it.
(23:26) >> Tell me about your background. So he has a background in finance. So both of us are MBA grads. We studied from the same college. We were from ISB Hyderabad. Um he has built his career as a consultant. So he used to work in Middle East. He was in Mastercard. He was in Pathanon. That's kind of been his experience.
(23:40) I've always been at the business end of stuff. So I've been the revenue person. I worked at Microsoft, Meta, Uber. Uh and my very last gig was at Noise right before this. So this is kind of our collective experience. So business strat at one end and then GTM and revenue at the other. That's how we >> So that's how you um divide as you said your strengths and weaknesses.
(23:59) You are able to handle different worlds. >> Yeah. >> And and and that complements each other. But um do you feel because this is called all about her, we sort of I'm a little um let's say I have a soft spot for women and I feel like we sometimes are unable to um celebrate our successes or you know we put ourselves last or we don't sometimes speak loudly um for various reasons and everyone who's come here has had different reasons.
(24:29) Uh I I wanted to ask you personally without assuming anything. Do you ever feel as a co-founder to a man who happens to be your husband? Does it does that label of being the founder's wife uh has that ever presented itself as something that a challenge that you have to face? Has anyone not taken you seriously because you're married to the founder? >> Yeah, I feel mostly people who end up do meeting me uh don't call me the co-founder's wife.
(24:53) They do realize is for sure the founder. But I feel a lot of this stigma being there. I wouldn't say very often because again I think especially the in the field and the space that we are in people do understand and they've gone through your backgrounds and stuff but there is some bit of stigma that exists interestingly I was in a meeting right before this it's a fairly large hotel chain and the first question the gentleman asked me uh heads procurement oh where is your your your husband and he expected the husband to be there I said my husband takes care
(25:18) of product and finance I take care of money and revenue and he was very surprised that I'm the one who is taking care of all of this and it's a question they ask and they expect that you know a lot of roles I wouldn't say all them but in some of them they do end up asking you know where's your co-founder they assume him to be the serious co-founder and stuff like that but um I kind of I've always in my career been in roles and I've been in all sorts of setup where where I feel like I've I've generally been in roles which are
(25:41) predominantly male-dominated um at a point in time when I was a team of 100 people where I was the only female and I was 25 at that point in time and uh you know you just you just learn to figure how that goes so yes there is a lot of stigma you can't help it's somebody's perception it's how you handle it yourself and I feel like um you know once if you have that capability and if you have something that kind of comes onto that table it's very evident that you add value and I feel like anybody who comes and meets us will 100% give
(26:06) equal respect to Udit what he does versus what I end up doing so we don't get this later but yes it is it is something it is a lot of people do have that sort of stigma that kind of goes with that and I think that's okay >> you know because you said also when you were younger when you were 25 you found yourself in these kinds of corporate environments and I feel like a lot of young women um also perhaps experience that.
(26:29) Is there some advice that you can give them um in terms of how they can find a voice when they feel like they're being dismissed or there's an element of sexism or there's an element of mansplaining. It's much easier said than done. And perhaps there are people with the benefit of, you know, a solid education, perhaps the right family environment growing up.
(26:50) Um they they're more e easily able to do that. Um perhaps you and I more easily able to do that. But what if someone is struggling? What are some things that might help them? >> See, the most interesting thing that I found is women, girls in general are okay not saying stuff, >> right? And however cliche it might sound, but like good girls don't win.
(27:09) And they don't if you don't raise your voice, if you don't call out when something of the sort happens, you will not get what you want. Like it's very it's a very small thing that I do and I do it generally when my daughter's around is that guards of a building have a habit of saying they'd call sir uh you know, good morning sir.
(27:25) They'll call me sir and I have to say no sir is for a guy. Madam is there and now my daughter started picking up and when they do it she started calling that out. See the point is you have to have a voice. You have to call out a BS when that BS is happening. If you don't do that you'll not get it. You have to snatch that opportunity and that stands everywhere.
(27:39) Perhaps for women we have to be a little bit more >> in grabbing that opportunity when we get that and don't feel shy of saying that oh you know I'm not getting uh attention and cry about it later. >> You know it's it's brutal in the business world especially in the space that we are in. It's brutal.
(27:54) Men have to fight for it. Women have to fight for it. Don't put yourself at a at a lower level. So, you have to have a voice. You have to flag it off. Don't cry about and speak to your girlfriends later about the fact that somebody spoke to me. If it happens, call out that because what happens? You're not changing their perception.
(28:07) You're building your own confidence about it. And the more confident you become that every time something of the sort is happening, I can and I should raise a voice and it's fine. Even if there is a rebuttal, I know how to take care of it. I feel it'll change you as an individual. And then over the period of time again compounding you will become a very different person who will know how to command for space in the world that you must right I feel like that's my advice that >> this is compounding as opposed to compounding
(28:30) >> it is um but you know it's so true we had a conversation also with Fay Duza and Pali Sharma remember them sitting here talking about women in the media as well and Fay said that um when she was in a similar situation if she was in a boardroom and there were a lot of men she would use a tactic like just standing up she's also petite um in height like like myself, she said she would stand up and make herself be heard, especially if somebody was trying to drown out your voice.
(28:54) And I thought that those were things that were um that really stood out or that she didn't um she wore the similar clothes, especially when she's presenting news on on on screen, for example, because then the attention is just about what she's saying and not what she's wearing. And for a lot of female um you know anchors and media presenters it tends to be oh she was wearing a beautiful sari um or that there has to be a man who's who's covering serious news.
(29:19) So I think now the landscape is changing more and more women are in positions. Um we want them to be in decision-m in you know positions that you're in uh for example they're getting there but all this kind of talk I think will really help them uh in terms of not being afraid to use their voice not being afraid to uh not be considered good.
(29:39) That narrative is changing a little bit and examples like you I think will be will be very helpful I think for people to see. Um, you know, you talked about your daughter, for example, and setting the right example for her. And I talked about as a mother, how I think I've become a better version of myself, at least when she's awake.
(29:54) When she goes to sleep, then um it's it remains to be seen whether I can maintain that or not. Uh, but at least while she's awake, I'm definitely the best version of myself. the reason to start Cuban also you're both doing it as co-founders udith and yourself but where did the genesis of the idea come from and how much of that was connected to your daughter and you know you being a mother >> so interestingly how human started was we were there in the kitchen one day and we both of us looked at a pan and said
(30:24) oh damn that was [laughter] literally the genesis of how it started so see both of us very busy careers right we typical corporate folks traveling a lot working a lot and uh it was it wasn't until we had a little one that we started spending a lot more time in the kitchen. We would as much as we would love food, we didn't have the time for it.
(30:42) So, we wouldn't cook as much, right? And just like order it and all of that. But after Tusa was born, that's my that's my daughter's name. Um so, we started making a lot. And there was something that Udit was making one day, an omelette in specific, one of the pans, and there were these speckles of black which was sticking onto it. And you know, that was very surprising.
(30:57) He said, "What is this?" The cook said, "No, no, just brush it off and you can serve it on the table." And called me and he said oh damn what is this this is not how our utensil should be and that kind of led us onto this journey because I personally believe that I feel still honestly as as if you till you don't have kids you don't necessarily care right you're anyways consuming all sorts of stuff that is not necessarily great for your body but after you have a child you become responsible for somebody else right your decision have an impact on
(31:22) the quality of life they will so then we said no this this doesn't do it we can't not stop looking at the kitchen then we pulled out our drawers that day looked at every single utensil and it spent like honestly it was I always say that human started as a personal journey. We weren't looking to start a business and say okay let's do this.
(31:38) We said we want healthy clean cookware for our families. U let's see what makes sense and then we started ordering from everywhere right like every brand you can name of and think of we have it in our in our kitchens. I have like my kitchen is overflowing with stuff. And then we tried and tested and researched and then we figured there's very few utensils which are making sense in the kind of lifestyle we have.
(31:57) We have fast-paced lifestyle. We want healthy products. We but we don't have products that cater to that. So at the whole soul of it we still say that tissu was the one who got us on that. If it weren't to be the case I don't. Yeah. Um we have a very interesting thing called the home test in our in our uh inum where unless a food has been cooked or a new utensil unless we cook our food in it and this food is not cooked in it I don't launch it in the market.
(32:20) I I feel tremendously high amount of sort of baggage onto myself to say I can't let anybody else's kid eat in that unless I can make my own child's. So we do this with every single utensil however small it is. So that's that's the way we're building it. >> So what are the different kinds of products that are available? >> Yeah.
(32:35) So we have we're building a kitchen ecosystem. We started with cookware. We have enamel cast iron both heavy and light. Now we're launching a new series as well. Um we have tools. So we have chopping boards. We have spatulas. We have we have recently launched these beautiful Damascus steel knives as well. We also have very recently launched storage because you said micro plastics.
(32:54) We figure a lot of storage is happening in plastic tupperware where God knows why people are still using that like good for them whoever they are but it is not the best for hot food. It is leeching stuff inside. So then we launched a new series of storage and then we also have bake wear and stuff as well. >> So yeah the idea is to make a healthy Indian kitchen which has every utensil that you might need.
(33:15) How does it work in terms of um again these are questions that I find that are deeply personal to me but I also feel that a lot of people now are living similar lives to perhaps you and me um women are working they're also managing things at home um they may have support at home they may not have support at home but they certainly are coming to a space now where their lives as mothers their lives as business owners or you know whatever professional capacity they are in are sort of um reaching apexes at similar times and women unfortunately have to make choices
(33:50) that men don't have to. You know, the choice to become a mother often coincides with, you know, a promotion at at work. How do you manage? Do you have a supportive environment at home, I'm saying that for someone who wants to also be involved in a work in in work and your daughter is young. you've chosen to start a business um which involves a lot of your presence and time at an age where presumably she also requires supervision.
(34:17) >> So how do you figure that? So see my fundamentals are very clear at least when we started building um this will always be the whole soul of it right she has to we when we started building we said she has to be on this journey with us so we made our office 5 minutes away from our house we said anytime she needs we try to pick her up from uh once the bus comes as often as we can I have this rule in my office that irrespect of whatever's happening if this calls I have to pick it up I've had board meetings where I picked up a call and
(34:44) initially people would find it a little weird because we're not used to seeing stuff like that I said I have to normalize I need to have people get comfortable with the fact that I do have a child to take care of and she's very young and she needs my attention and we need to be able to normalize that part. I want this to be a very dominant part of it.
(35:03) My child can come to my office anytime. I made a room in my office for anyone who's a mother and we have like I think three four in the office now and we said at any point you're stuck. You don't have help and support please get this room is meant for kids all sorts of stuff there. So you can't be in denial of the fact that you have a life and that you have a child and you have to pretend that you know that's like not something that you know impacts the quality of your output.
(35:24) So we made sure that everything is we are building transparently uh the child has access to our office any point she wants and that's kind of that that is something that ends up making things a little easier. I will highlight though that it's not possible to do what at least we are building and we are doing at this point in time without support.
(35:42) I mean, I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing everything and I'm juggling. I have an insanely large support system. I have my in-laws close to, they are two buildings away. My parents are 5 minutes away. And I use them very generously. See, if I have ambition in life, I can't pretend to do it all. I will burn out.
(35:55) And that's not how it's supposed to be. You should be 100% asking for help and support. And there's nothing wrong in that. If your ambition, your family, your child, everything has to move in tandem. Understand there is an ecosystem that needs to be there, right? We do need to rough it out. If you do that right, please will make it possible for you to be able to aspire that you can have a bigger life.
(36:17) Right? So at least that's something that we did where we leverage our ecosystem really well and our parents are very deeply ingrained in everything we do. Um my parents are taking care of my little one right now while I'm while I'm here. [clears throat] And uh also the fact that we're building accommodating a lot of that stuff, right? Accommodating her presence and her needs and her requirements.
(36:33) And I feel like if you're able to do that, that's why we able to do it with joy. Otherwise, I felt like I would be like that for her to be able to ask and when she does I don't even hesitate and I get that. >> So many questions. One was uh connected to your experience in corporate sectors before this. I mean as a founder you have a certain element of control over the work environment that you've created.
(37:01) Um you've had the ability to create that environment close to home which is the dream. Um and then to be able to have you know whether it's a crush or whether it's a a room that you have for similar you know mothers who then at least don't feel physically torn sometimes when your child is very young that is the dream again in terms of your experience in corporates in India up until this point all the experience that you've had before this was that missing is that something that you find is people are are becoming more cognizant of or is it still sort of a farway
(37:34) dream. That was one question. The other was the one about guilt. Um, which I think is something that people, it's just something even if the world around you, you know, does not put that pressure on you as mothers, as working mothers, we do feel torn. And I've understood with all my wisdom now that the trick is to actually enjoy being where you are because then what's the point? Then it just sucks, right? If you're with your child and you're thinking about work and if you're at work and you're thinking about your
(38:05) child, you're not doing justice to either. Much easier said than done. Um, of course, my life comes with a lot of privilege and I understand that that might be a section of our, you know, viewers who might have privilege. A lot of them don't and they say, you know, that's easy for you to say, but so perhaps to reach those people as well.
(38:26) So, the first question is about the corporate structure. What are things like are things improving? What are things that you would like to see being replicated in corporate sort of? >> So, right before Cumin, in fact, like a couple of years ago, I did start like this side gig uh called the project asked me and the intent of that was to bring women uh return to women uh back to the workforce.
(38:48) So, that was this entire project where I figured post I became a mother that a lot of women had fallen off the corporate radar and they wanted to get back but they just didn't know how. And these are people with my sort of a background. Extremely sharp, confident, very smart bunch of women. But again, see the point is a lot of it is it is the families that you're brought up in.
(39:07) The way you've seen your mothers, the way you've seen the role of of your father and your mother, the dynamics around you, right? Like you can study from wherever, but if the dynamics is such a lot of it does end up sitting, right? I feel like I I parent a lot like my mother and then I consciously have to correct myself for the things that I don't align with.
(39:23) But that does tend to happen. A lot of that benchmarking does happen. diplomatically put >> my mother might be listening to this. [laughter] So uh so with all of that you do have this perception of okay women should step off the radar women should do all of that stuff right um the thing that I figured once I was doing ask me is two three things most women uh just didn't know how to get back to it because they required a very different kind of a work environment they did want to work right a lot of them took like a year and a half two years at best and they're like
(39:49) okay now I want to do something but I don't want to go to a full-blown job I do want to do something part-time and I figure that a lot of people just weren't aware of a lot of stuff which was there there were so many of these organization which had these part-time remote job options all of that stuff.
(40:02) So we went through a lot of time explaining people right I became like a guidance counselor to them to say uh you know you do have a 4-hour work option you don't have to be a full-time you could just become that. So I feel it's it's two things right now. One, I think there should be a lot more conversation about different kind of work options in general because not everyone seeks the same amount of corporate ladder movement, right? And that should be visible.
(40:22) The second thing that I kind of feel is corporates themselves should require because they do need that, right? Even in the small organization that I have of 50 60 people. I do need different kind of people. I don't need full-time people all the time. And if that's the thing, then we should be putting it out there, right? I feel like corporate should also look at restructuring and there are some fantastic ones like we worked with Accenture very very closely and Accenture did have this return to women a return to work sort of a program for
(40:44) women right so I feel like a lot of that enablement should happen from the corporate side as well where they put it out there to say okay I do have a unique requirement and let me build and structure for just this specific kind of work uh requirement that women have so I feel like yes a lot of work to be done happening it's going to be a long journey I feel but um what I definitely see from the time I started ask me to at least right now lot of flexibility lot of flexibility of work people are a lot more aware than a lot of avenues behans
(41:12) fiverr a lot of people I know in general are looking at you know kind of uh freelancing across those channels so I feel like lot of awareness in general in the space right now >> that's amazing I I want to ask at at home um you know how do you handle things at home in terms of conversations with your daughter when you can't be there for something that she wants you to be there for for example which must happen there must be times when even if you have the most efficient system um for whatever reason you can't be present
(41:39) do you handle that with udith and yourself do you have a conversation with your daughter do you how have you set up home duties because I feel like in the workplace like we were discussing perhaps there is some awareness of bringing women back to work after they become mothers for example but in the home what the the equal parenting at home or the equal distribution of domestic duties I feel that conversation is a little lagging in India um in all circles Um now whether it's about a certain conditioning of their masculine duties
(42:09) and feminine duties play party you know whatever play dates birthday parties you'd hardly see fathers they're not on the WhatsApp groups there are one or two examples you know but um mot like that so what are your thoughts on that >> I don't think there's anything called equal parenting that just like my POV we might not be the most popular thing but I feel like at any given point in time >> uh there will always be a lack of balance up and down and that is fine and that is parenthood and that's what you figure out together right um so to give
(42:44) an example last month Udit was traveling the entire time and he was out a lot um and I was the one who was holding for I said great you know it will happen and then there is this month where I'm traveling a lot and we have this beautiful arrangement that we have between both of us where we understand that at no point in time should we demand 5 hours by you and 5 hours by me if you've done that you can't parent Well, right.
(43:04) Then it's not joyful parenting. The way we've done it, we figured out what we enjoy and we don't enjoy. I love teaching my daughter. I love teaching her math. I love doing all of that. >> But does she enjoy learning from you? I also enjoy teachable but she doesn't enjoy it. >> The only one who can make her learn by the way is me.
(43:19) Everyone else has raised the hand and I said only you do it. Which is what I said greater do it. So I come back early from the office. There are two hours that I spend with her where I'm just teaching her. I don't like waking up in the morning. So that's Udit's space. So we've done this demarcation where mornings are udits through and through and he does all of that and not because he's like oh you have to wake up and we don't have this he knows that like I don't enjoy it and we've done this beautiful demarcation where he because he uh starts early he
(43:41) also goes to office early and then we've done the split to say some days you start early and then some days I start early so that way I think what is very clear for us as a as parents is we have to be present for a child as much as possible and then let's figure within that what do you need to do what do I need to do and communicate at points it'll be more for me it'll be more for But that's fine. That's parenthood.
(44:00) >> I feel brushed over it. But is it complicated working with someone that you're married to? Also tell me about the times where there is some conflict or you have to draw some boundaries, rules perhaps that you know um you put in there like again I feel like when we were writing this book together, Kunal and I um the genesis of the book came from him.
(44:19) I was a published author before that. So I felt like I had more swag in terms of like I'm I have got a connection with Penguin etc. Uh but he's also a dialogue writer and a script writer now. um and he has a lot of emotion in his writing. I have a lot of I think language skills in terms of making it look pretty and bringing some cohesion structure to the story.
(44:37) Um but there were there was friction in terms of who was bringing more to the table. Um what skills get whether they're 50/50 in terms of recognition and credibility and things like that. These are just I mean silly things but we've stopped at three books. We've realized that we can't go more than three.
(44:52) Um you guys have a longer journey I feel ahead of you in in Cumin as opposed to the Indian Bobo series which has retired now. Um so tell me about moments of like friction. >> See it's de never easy for sure. Like we are very very different people like I love talking I love chatting. I'm also very aggressive.
(45:12) I'm the one who sets the pace in the company so to speak right like I'm the taskmaster. Odit on the other hand. So it was his idea the the entire fact that we should build in this space and researching and he's the one who by the way has made all the products so it is his space and what we've kind of done this way really well is draw this fine line of saying you do this you're the last person who has a say here so I don't speak about products it is his space he's the domain holder I don't get into it and then there are things between us um but you do tend to
(45:37) clash a lot it's very difficult especially in fact what's gotten even more amplified is uh what used to be just home clashes sometimes is you will have work clashes and it is bound to happen with any two people who work together, spouse or no spouse, right? And the tricky thing is how do you carry it home without doing all of that? And we've had, by the way, and just being extremely extremely candid.
(45:57) We've had fights at home that we necessarily would not have wanted a little one to be privy to. And we realized that this is not how you can build a company. The day we felt like this is going to be in the long haul. This is our life. It can't be like it was before that you can switch off in a minute and say, "Okay, corporate's done.
(46:13) Now you're back home and it's fine. It's somebody else's problem." this is going to be alive for a while now, right? So, we have to learn to be able to work and that's where we started figuring out we need to draw that line. Is it easy? No. Like we can see each other like mumbling in the corner and we like oh there's a fight at work and we don't know how to process it at home.
(46:28) But what we have set a very very clear rule is that we have to leave it at the door >> and then we will pick it up after she wakes up and because after she sleeps because in all fairness you can't there are some decisions which have to be solved for then and there but you have to also do it in a way that is respectful to your house ecosystem.
(46:42) Right? I'm very high on energy. If you carry that energy it will somewhere reflect in your house in the way things are your child I have a help all of that stuff will it'll reflect right so the point it is our because it is our house we are the ones who will set the pace for it so while we don't enjoy it a lot of times we do have to draw that line is it a journey we walk through for sure we've had like multiple conversations where we've kind of come back home and then we like oh we can't have it in front of this but I feel like that's
(47:07) what the last one and a half years is and now we have the sweet spot >> um where we understood what are the gives and gets of working with your partner but I I think um respecting him as a partner and respecting him as a as a founder like that's very important right uh because there's a two level of respect that has to happen initially was just one and it is even more complicated and two when you know that something that you might not agree to might be happening but it's important to draw that line so I feel uh it's a journey
(47:31) that we are walking through for sure >> for a woman I feel who's watching this who is perhaps considering starting something with her partner what is one I mean you've you've touched on a few of them but perhaps what is like one honest warning that you would give her before she goes into this. >> See, it's a very difficult journey.
(47:47) Anything if you're starting from inception is going to be very very very complicated and trying and testing. Don't get into it because it seems easy to start with your partner but because you have something to add because that euphoria of comfort will go very fast and then the reality of starting the business will come in because it is going to be complicated.
(48:04) They're going to be harsh decisions. There will be difficult decisions and you'll have to stand your ground. Um so I think one of the things to know is that it will be complicated. If anything is not peaceful and not fine or whatever, don't jump into it because then you're asking for a lot more level of complexity to come in.
(48:20) The second thing is if you if you can't value your partner both ways. In fact, especially given how a lot of dynamics are, if if your partner [clears throat] cannot value you or your husband cannot value your personal or your professional expertise, if you sense that, please don't get into it because it will even get amplified later.
(48:37) So my two advice would be this. It is complicated. do knowing like it's similar to technically having a child it's not easy so you have to be okay with the fact that there will be trial stipulations and this is what you're getting into and second is extremely high level of professional trust because now you're getting into a different territory altogether where you have to respect somebody's expertise so if neither of them exist I would suggest rethink and reconsider >> it's interesting that you compared it to having a child because a lot of people
(49:00) say when there's friction in a marriage or have a child but nobody says start a company but they should really think about it in the same way because you're just uh opening up Another um area of a friction. Uh even if you're not if you're starting a company without your husband, if you want to found something, you know, how do you know that you have an idea that actually has business legs? For somebody who perhaps has an idea, who's standing in their kitchen or in their, you know, on their balcony, what is your advice for someone who, you
(49:27) know, as a woman in her late 30s wants to start something? >> So ideas are just ideas unless you don't start executing. If you don't take it to the step after that and the step after that, you will keep mulling over it. And I've had so many people around me come and say, "My god, fantastic idea and great AI tool and this and that.
(49:45) " Said, "What did you do?" Nothing. Great presentation. But business has so many complex layers. Your idea is the smallest of them. If anything, what was human when we began and we still go back to there's this like thing that we've kept in in our house which says the first business plan that we made between the both of us to where human is right now.
(50:02) It's a very different business altogether. And the point is you will have to walk that journey if you a lot of people overromanticize output to say let me perfect my product let me perfect my idea let me get the absolute right thing >> it will not happen you should >> like I feel there are two inflection points in any business if you have an idea just execute with the very first step make your website make your app make your product whatever you have to do get it tested from a customer the first thing is going to be when you bring something of that idea to life and
(50:28) the second part is going to be when you put it in front of the customer both are going to be very brutal your customers will come back and say either it's fabulous or it is horrible and then if you have the guts to it you will refine it or you will tank it. >> So unless you start fast you either will not fail fast or you will not succeed fast but the the the pace of taking that idea and moving it to execution is the entire game.
(50:49) >> Who was the first person you bounced this idea off? >> My sister I do all like I have a elder sister my god like she's just the soul of everything that I do and I bounce off every single idea with her and she said this seems interesting. She still has my first testo product. >> Oh, nice. Nice.
(51:06) Um, in terms of uh being so busy when you are working then when I mean I feel like you know we've talked about this also in the past. There's no such thing as a non-working mother firstly. I mean we don't understand that definition of working mother. It's just certain work is paid and certain work is unpaid.
(51:22) But life is busy for you I'm sure. How do you protect your personal space? like what are some things that you do actively for your um just stress busting things stuff when you're anxious about something how do you protect your personal space >> so I figure two three things about myself and I feel like it's a very post 30 post 35 journey I feel like um a lot of who you are as person what you need to do well you will realize this so I figure like I need some of my people I need some of my friends I need do need to talk to them I do need to meet them
(51:51) so that is something that I very actively try to do even if I have a hectic schedule and I have the best bunch bunch of people they accommodate their lives for me and they will come to where I am instead of asking to meet somewhere else. I feel like that's a very important part of what I think is really helping me do well.
(52:05) And the second important thing is I need that peace in the morning because I'm not a morning person and thankfully it's domain. I do need that sort of one one and a half hours where I'll just like read a book or I'll just do my things or I'll go for a walk or I'll work out whatever. I need that that pace down in the morning because once I do I'm either zero or 100 and that is just my understanding of who I am as an individual.
(52:26) For people it may vary but you need to find your oasis and even in this kiosk um because you can't thrive you can't do well if you don't get your space for yourself it could be half an hour and that's fine but find what gives you a lot of joy and do that >> I feel like a lot of people don't do that because you know and then then they do burn out because um it seems like an indulgence you know on top of all of this then where's the time for me and for a lot of people it tends to be late at night also I feel like when the house goes to sleep when my daughter's gone to
(52:52) bed when my husband is you scrolling on his phone or whatever, that's when I'll do something, but that might be too late in the day. I think it's great that you've chosen the morning. >> The very interesting thing, by the way, we hear a lot from a lot of our customers is exactly this, that cumin gives me that time to myself.
(53:06) Like a lot of people might not cook a lot, but because there is this beautiful, gorgeous cookware that really makes you feel like, oh my god, everything, however bad a recipe might be, the output will be fantastic. They come back and we've had these amazing DMs from people saying, thank God you've made that 30 minutes in my day when I used to cook really joyful.
(53:24) It's felt like it's my time, it's me time, it's made cooking so wonderful and uh yeah, I feel like a lot of people do look at cooking as their sweet spot and they look at that time where they can recoup and I'm happy we can play a part in that. We had such a a lovely conversation again with two chefs in terms of cooking and I um again had asked them um you know what do you think about people who say you should never cook when you're angry and it was interesting because I said but it doesn't matter because when you start cooking
(53:49) >> it's a channel for that anger. If you're in a bad mood and if you really focus and you're cooking you're doing something you love it goes away and it's a stress buster for so many people. >> So I think that time you know for some people it's in the bathroom for some people it's in the kitchen for very different reasons.
(54:04) Um, but it's so nice to do that because you said that and we were talking about this a little earlier in the conversation. How long will the products from Cumin last then? If we're changing some of our products in 5 years, 7 years, does that does is it about being durable? Is it about being toxin-free? What is the the USP? Yeah.
(54:22) So, how Cumin has built their product is to fundamentally solve for toxicity plus durability. So, all of enamel cast iron series has a 10-year warranty. So the way we build the coating and that's what I was saying that we have three patents to our to our name right now and one of the patent is for the enamel coating that we've developed.
(54:38) We call it Envirroax and that has trace amount of titanium added in such a way that gives it a lot more durability. Titanium by the way is an extremely expensive metal. It's an absolutely inert metal. Absolutely. It is non-reactive. You can make anything in titanium. Doesn't react at all.
(54:53) Um and we've added that titanium in that amount just to make it a little bit more hardy as a as a metal. We also chose cast iron for that reason because cast iron has pores. So your coating is not afust to be native to what we do. We don't want to say no plastic in our packaging so we sustainable. If it's not there in your product, you're not sustainable.
(55:17) That's what my personal belief is and that's how we build the product as well. So they are supposed to last 10 year and 10 years. So anytime there's a problem, we we're very very open to anyone coming back and saying if at all there is any chipping, we don't even blink an eye and we return that. We get it replaced.
(55:31) Wonderful. Yeah. >> Um as a closing one of the closing questions I thought I would ask you if your daughter is watching this or when she's old enough perhaps to understand your journey. She's probably already because I love that you are living your journey as a professional as well as a mother in front of her.
(55:47) So she's obviously seeing a lot of this develop. And as we know children don't learn from you teaching them with words. They learn by just their sponges. So they watch and they learn that okay my father going to work is a visual but my mother going to work is also a visual. I mean for me growing up my only visual is my mother going to work because my father was a professional athlete.
(56:04) So he'd retired so he was at home all the time. So for me you know choosing to work or having being a mother and working was never really something that I had to fight in my own mind first to justify. It was already something that existed and I'm surrounded by lots of women. So I feel like your daughter will have that visual.
(56:22) Uh but is there something that you hope that she will learn from watching you build a company? You know something values about you know on entrepreneurship, what it means to be a woman, having your voice, someone who will have her own dreams one day. What is something that you hope that she will learn? >> Yeah, I think if there's one thing that I really really wish she learns and I keep trying to teach her is to persevere.
(56:45) I feel there is there is just one trick to success in life for anything is you have to be so resilient. You have to be so persevering. That is the only way things happen. And I want her to to know that her mother was someone that who kept on trying and who kept on who kept on pushing the boundaries and saying okay this is not enough. I want to try something else.
(57:00) It could be anything. Whatever she chooses. Not to say that she has to be a corporate person. She could become something else altogether. But I want I would love for her to say that I want to be resilient like my mother. I want to persevere like my mother. And I feel like if these two are things that she's able to learn from me, I am fairly certain she'll have a fantastic fantastic life which I'm sure either way she will.
(57:18) actually have another closing question for you which I feel like if you could address perhaps people watching and perhaps share with them if you could get every Indian kitchen to change just one habit. Um I'm not talking about them buying a different product but perhaps something that you've observed in Indian kitchens a habit that people are doing that you would like them to change.
(57:36) What would that be? >> I think a lot of our problems are hoarding related. We'd like to keep things like you've been to my kitchen. [laughter] >> We like to store a lot. We like to keep a lot of things which are from before. I think we have a major attachment issue as people in general and a lot of those things are not supposed to be there because we hold a lot we will buy a lot we will keep a lot uh we will also not replace we will not also give out I feel like it's a very small thing to change but it will change with how consciously
(58:01) you will end up purchasing if you let go of this habit uh and a lot more thoughtfully perhaps >> I feel like I must visit your kitchen and just see >> it has so many products from competition by the way we keep testing stuff out >> but that is good you must keep your enemy close right >> [laughter] >> But uh thank you so much.
(58:18) I feel that you know um every time I have conversations about health and nutrition I feel like I've learned so much but the basics um of what you're cooking in and also just being aware. I feel like we delegate so much and as you said cooking is something where you have to be so present especially when it comes to Indian cooking but we outsource so much and most of us again if we're working mothers cooking is something that someone else is doing and it's nice sometimes to go do it yourself observe see what you're using and how much of
(58:46) that is actually part of the healthy infrastructure that you think you're building and you know maybe it's time to make a change. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We have a rapid fire for you which I'm going to try and read without my glasses. >> Okay. Uh, what's harder, pitching to investors or negotiating with your child? >> I think I can pitch to my investors because I've learned to negotiate with my child.
(59:03) >> Have you learned Wait till she becomes a teenager. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. Which is happening now much earlier by the way. [laughter] >> I'm exhausted by the end of the day when it comes to like just constantly. >> It is. >> And also you have a girl and that's I mean I just want to say I think that they're >> I just spoke to her by the way and I was talking about something.
(59:20) I said, "Mom, I think you're digressing." I said, >> "Wow, I love her." >> She literally >> used the word digressing. She did. She's brutal. She's so sassy. It is fantastic. >> I love it. I love [laughter] it. Um, what's one work habit your family wishes that you would leave at the office? >> I think checking on my phone.
(59:36) It's a bad habit. Uh, but yeah, I try to keep my phone away, but I think it's around me at all points. >> How to not make it a part of your infrastructure. Even in told this to me the other day and this morning I left it in my room. I've ordered uh just a digital alarm clock because I feel from the moment my alarm is set on my phone and then from then it's just I'm checking my WhatsApp.
(59:56) I'm not scrolling Instagram but I'm working and she doesn't know what I'm doing. She now is aware of Instagram. So she's she thinks I'm like a phone is fun and how to explain to her no I'm doing research and so I really try not to take it into the room now >> an alarm clock. >> That's important. Yes. >> Um one parenting lesson that's made you a better founder.
(1:00:15) I think you have to be very um fulfilled as a as a parent. If you have a child, you have to be fulfilled as a parent to be able to do a good job as a founder if you like your child. Like a lot of people don't and they're fine. But I feel like if you really care about your child and and if you feel like that's a part that you value, I think if you don't give that enough attention, you will always feel guilt and you always feel like [clears throat] you're missing out.
(1:00:36) So fulfill yourself here to fulfill yourself in the other aspect of your life. >> Very good advice. Um, one founder lesson that has made you a better parent. >> Uh, sorry, one founder, uh, >> one founder lesson. So, one was a parenting lesson that made you a better founder. One is a founder lesson, um, business lesson that you're using with your daughter.
(1:00:55) >> Um, the fact that there will be a lot of mistakes and there will be failures and then you can always correct. >> Yes. >> And like it tends to happen with me like if say and there will be times something happens and I'll scold this one and I'll be like, "Oh my god, end of the world." and I realized no it will go back to it because it is just a part of the journey and there will be other other conversations and she will learn something from it from it but like the absence of finality of something but generally when I was an early parent I
(1:01:20) used to feel a lot I think that's one thing that business has taught me there's nothing called final it always keep on evolving and changing >> and and and I think there's a lot of comfort in that everything is a phase >> yes >> um what's the first thing you do when you finally get an hour completely to yourself but you've taken that hour first thing in the morning so >> I sleep I'm very sleepd deprived these days.
(1:01:41) So yeah, I think if I get any time at all, I like to play some nice music. I'll mostly doze off. Uh yeah, that's my sweet spot. This is assuming I've spent a lot of time with my child, but once I just have time to myself, I sleep. Yeah. >> Um but I think the art of napping is a skill that most people should master because it makes you more efficient and I think it's one of those things that people >> do not take seriously.
(1:02:03) >> I've in inherited it from my mom. She can have anywhere on the planet. Great. I'm very happy I have those jeans with myself. >> Embrace that. Never give it up. Um, coffee, quiet or chaos? What the best describes your morning? So, is it chaotic? Is it quiet? >> It is very chaotic for sure. Like it will start with coffee because generally some work meal something else has broken. So, it starts with coffee.
(1:02:26) I'll take a little bit of zen time during that time and then the chaos begins. Has to begin at some point. >> Nice. What's bedtime for you? >> 12 1. Are >> you making that up? just presenting a >> generally I I do tend to sleep late but generally tends to go to 2 three also but I'm trying to like now consciously sleep better sleep like I said I'm perpetually sleepd deprived but yeah the hours are are chaotic at this point >> no lovely as there should be and it's only one and a half years into Cuban you have a lot more to go um it's going
(1:02:55) beyond just one or two products to a whole infrastructure that you're creating in a kitchen so I again I wish you all the best >> thank you thank you thank you for taking the time so co supported today's conversation But the questions were ours and I hope that what you're taking away isn't buy this pan.
(1:03:12) It's what's actually in the one that you already own. Toxin-free is a real conversation. It's not just a label. And the only way to tell the difference is to ask for the paperwork, not just the promise. So, please do go into your into your kitchens, check your pans, and see their state and whether you need to upgrade. Thank you, Niharika, for your vision, and I wish you all the best with the company.
(1:03:32) Um, thank you for answering all the hard questions as well as the the normal ones. And if this at home made you look at your own kitchen differently, do share it with someone who is still doing dry tadka in a scratched up non-stick pan. And thank you all for joining me on All About Her. Until next time, stay informed, stay healthy, and we'll see you in the next episode. [music]
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