No.1 Fatigue Expert: The Real Reason You're Always Tired (and how to fix it)

No.1 Fatigue Expert: The Real Reason You're Always Tired (and how to fix it)

Author Name:Dr. Daniel Pompa

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@DrDanielPompa

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9eZpMeUg-E





Title: No.1 Fatigue Expert: The Real Reason You're Always Tired (and how to fix it)

Author Name: Dr. Daniel Pompa

Description: ➡️ Why are you always tired, and could copper deficiency be part of the problem? Dr. Pompa and Morley Robbins explore how copper, iron, and magnesium relate to persistent fatigue, mitochondrial function, and your body’s ability to produce energy.

Morley Robbins, creator of the Root Cause Protocol and author of CUre Your Fatigue, joins The Dr. Pompa Podcast to share his perspective on mineral balance and why fatigue deserves a closer look beyond a single blood test or supplement.

The conversation explores copper’s role in cellular energy production, the relationship between copper and iron metabolism, and Robbins’ interpretation of low iron and ferritin results. They also discuss magnesium, vitamin A, vitamin D, zinc, and vitamin C—including Robbins’ concerns about how common supplement routines may affect mineral balance.

In this episode:

➡️ Copper deficiency and its relationship to fatigue and low energy
➡️ Mitochondria and how your cells produce energy
➡️ Iron deficiency, iron recycling, and the debate around ferritin testing
➡️ Ceruloplasmin, the protein involved in copper transport and iron metabolism
➡️ Zinc supplementation and its effects on copper absorption
➡️ Magnesium, stress, and the connections between vitamins A and D
➡️ Copper-rich foods, copper peptides, and the Root Cause Protocol
Robbins’ perspective on soil depletion, glyphosate, and mineral availability

If you’re looking to better understand ongoing fatigue, mineral deficiencies, or the questions surrounding iron and copper, this discussion explores how these topics fit together—and why Robbins believes copper deserves more attention.

Learn more about Morley Robbins and the Root Cause Protocol: therootcauseprotocol.com

Follow The Dr. Pompa Podcast for more conversations about cellular health, nutrition, and the factors behind persistent symptoms.
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Transcript:
(00:00) Let's go back to the 1930s. The average American diet delivered 4 to 6 mg of copper per day. And now today in the modern era, we're told that 0.9 mg is enough. It's absolutely not enough. A third of the earth's population is told that they are anemic. It's a very serious situation. >> We have a soil problem [music] and it is a big issue.
(00:28) You can't just pull this chemical right now. It's going to be in the feet, in the hands, and the twitch of the eye. If you've got any one of those three, you've got a serious magnesium deficiency, and you need to bulk up. Cure your fatigue. Could it be that as simple as literally one mineral? Well, it could be. All right.
(00:53) Well, I am here with the author, Mory Robbins, and we're going to discuss this one mineral, copper, and how it affects just about every process in your body. Oh boy. Yep. And we're going to talk about the D deception. Yep. Vitamin D deception. If you're taking vitamin D, you better listen in. You're going to find out about magnesium. Okay.
(01:16) You're going to find out, oh, and all the wrong things there. And most importantly, iron. Are you iron deficiency? Do you have an iron deficiency or have you been told that you do? Well, you better stay tuned because it may not be that simple. Oh, in taking it. Yeah, it could be a problem. All that's going to get answered on this episode of the Dr.
(01:37) Pompa podcast. So, morally, I'm excited for this topic. >> Well, I'm thrilled to be here. Looking forward to Look, I you know, you did you changed my view on copper um some time ago and I I was one of those that thought, hey, whoa, you know, don't take more than 0.5. God forbid you take a whole milligram or two.
(01:57) Uh in no time, you're going to be copper poison. But all in all though, I still knew that copper was important for people's hormones, right? And copper had all these important functions in the body and how it relates to iron. And then I think recently, you know, with all everyone with COVID taking zinc, um we're going to learn uh about this relationship between copper and zinc, it's not what people think.
(02:21) Uh and as a matter of fact, with COVID, because of all the zinc overload, people could have gotten themselves in trouble. >> Totally. Totally got in trouble. Yeah. >> And and in fact, during COVID, uh it was about April of 2020, >> I went, wait a minute, everyone was taking high dose of scorpic acid. highdose vitamin D, highdose zinc.
(02:42) Well, not everyone has the level of proficiency around minerals that I have. >> Yeah. >> And I went those that's the perfect triad to kill copper in the human body. >> Yeah. And we're going to learn about vitamin C. >> So then I renamed CO. >> COV stands for copper's vanished. ID stands for iron's disregulated.
(03:02) And the part that most people don't know is that if copper's low, iron takes off in the body. M >> it's an unchecked response and it will begin to build in the liver. >> Yeah. >> And [clears throat] that's not where you want it. >> And right now it's very invogue in um our alternative health space that iron is poison. Iron is bad.
(03:20) Iron don't take iron. Don't eat blah blah blah. Avoid iron. Um and you know, you're saying, hey, it's really a copper problem. We're going to build on that thought, you know, because I I want people to understand that um it really is a copper problem. Even we're going to talk about uh vitamin A because people will say, "Oh my gosh, vitamin A toxicity is a big deal.
(03:43) You got to be careful with vitamin A." Well, could that be a copper problem? Uh yeah, I would argue yes. And even you're going to learn the um the de the deception about vitamin D. The deception. Did you get that? Um because there's a lot of deception. People are loading up on zinc, loading up on vitamin D, staying away from copper. Uh, and people are loading up, to your point, on ascorbic acid, vitamin C, especially when they're sick.
(04:10) And again, you've taught me, hey, that's not a good thing. And and there's a lot of problems with that. So, I want to break into all that, you know, and obviously magnesium, I think most people watching this understand magnesium's missing in the soil because of a chemical called glyphosate, right? But le let's start right into the copper issue because I really do believe and and you see the book here uh the CU standing for copper.
(04:35) So cure your fatigue. Um you're basically right up front saying hey copper is a big part of why many people are fatigued. >> Right. Right. >> And I'm really I'm building on the genius of Douglas Wallace. He's a famous geneticist and and biologist at Children's Hospital Pennsylvania. move your mic just a little closer just because you're a soft talker.
(04:56) >> I am a soft talker. Carrie Big Stick though. [laughter] Uh but >> he does. >> But um every every scientist has a signature article. Dr. Wallace says was 2005. And in the very first sentence he's admonishing his scientific and clinical peer saying you don't know how energy is made. And what he's referring to is cellular energy deficiency.
(05:20) >> We call it fatigue. It's the number one reason why people go see their practitioner. >> Just a something's going on. The mitochondria are not making. >> I'm tired. I'm fatigued. And they go and and I [clears throat] think truth be known, most practitioners don't know how energy is made inside the body. >> Yeah.
(05:35) >> And it's and it's not overly complicated, but but there's a series of events that need to take place. And if the mitochondria don't have copper, they can't make they can't make the energy >> through the mitochondrian complex 4. That's where you literally make the the NAD needed for energy >> um through simple oxygen and water I believe.
(05:55) >> Well, exactly. The the beauty of that complex, it actually goes back to the beginning of time. Dial back two and a half billion years ago. Um but when oxygen started to appear on the planet, it was copper that saved life on the planet. And it's absolutely fascinating what it does is every everybody has a kitchen.
(06:18) I'm sure you have a stove in your kitchen. >> What's it made out of? >> Probably iron. >> Yeah, it's made out of oven. So, does does a stove know what's for dinner tonight? >> No. >> No. Does the stove know what burner to put on? >> No. >> No. Got to have a chef, right? >> Yeah. >> All right. So, in the mitochondria at complex 4 that you're talking about, complex 4, >> there's two hem groups. He A and Hea3.
(06:41) And guess what they do? They hold oxygen. But you can't make he A and Hea3 without copper. >> It needed copper. >> Got to have the copper. >> And so then by holding the oxygen, they allow this copper enzyme cytochrome C oxidase to slice and dice the oxygen and turn it from O2 into two molecules of H2O. >> Yeah. Water.
(07:03) >> And when that happens, it can only happen in a perfect pH of seven. it releases ADP into the U electron transport chain and then a complex five which is spinning at 30,000 revolutions per minute. That's 500 revolutions per second. >> I'd be impressed if you could do one revolution. Yeah. >> Right. 500.
(07:27) And [clears throat] there's an alpha and a beta subunit to complex 5. Well, beta doesn't work without copper. No one ever talks about the beta subunit. So basically I if you don't have enough copper >> Yeah. >> and we're going to talk about there's a lot of reasons why people don't today. Absolutely. >> Uh it's a different [clears throat] diet.
(07:46) I I think a lot of the foods that they're even told to avoid um are the copper rich foods often times and then you know even how how it plays into vitamin A. But okay so the lack of copper is really a main player in this energy production in the mitochondria. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So just by adding copper um some you know many people go oh my gosh I I feel incredibly better.
(08:14) Um and okay so uh you made the argument um of the copper's place there. Now I I guess people out there let's get right into why are people so copper deficient and then let's talk about what they can do to you know become non-deficient and I do want to hit on the toxicity issue because we do have a lot of practitioners that watch this are going to be like you guys are going to poison people. Uh, copper causes heart attacks.
(08:37) It's leading to strokes. And we hear the same about iron. And we're going to get into that next. So, we're going from copper to iron here because the world is iron deficient. Yet, you know, we're being told we're going to be poisoned. But copper's role in iron is the key. Okay. So, let's >> the key is the key is farming.
(08:53) >> Mhm. Okay. >> And let's go back to the 1930s, >> right? >> The average American diet delivered four to six milligrams of copper per day. >> Okay. That's a that's a bolus of copper. By the 1960s, it had dropped to 2 to 5 milligrams. And now today, in the modern era, we're told that 0.9 milligrams is enough. It's not.
(09:21) It's absolutely not enough. So, [clears throat] how did we if if we knew that people produced or ate that much copper and that and again I think the deficiency has come from the chemicals used like glyphosate that binds copper. Yep. >> We know it does. Um and then the soil depletion itself now. Right. Right. So, we're getting less copper.
(09:42) But how did we end up going, "Oh my gosh, don't take more than, you know, a [clears throat] milligram." >> Great. >> It's a great question. How how did it happen? And I've studied it. Join me live in Houston in October 16th through the 18th. First time ever doing a public seminar for 20 years doing doctor seminars.
(10:01) That's why I'm really excited about this. Look for my followers, people looking for an answer, want to know more about mold illness, want to know more about heavy metal toxicity, want to know more about hormone conditions, thyroid conditions, and even find what's wrong with you. Well, that's what we're doing at the seminar. Oh, yeah.
(10:20) You're going to take the very test, something called a visual contrast sensitivity that can look for something called biotoxic illness. You're going to fill out our AI version of our neurotoxic assessment that all my doctors use. Okay? Because we're going to involve you in the discovery. Why? Because people are looking for answers. So I said, if I'm doing a seminar, I want people to experience what I do, what I've been teaching.
(10:44) And look, of course, we're going to have amazing teachers. We're going to have breakouts on these topics, right? You're going to hear breakouts about weight loss resistance, health and children. You're going to hear breakouts about mold, how to build homes safely, what you need to do in your home to make it safe. We're going to be blowing the lid off of some of these topics that really nobody's talking about is causitive factors for why so many people are sick.
(11:07) I'm going to put a link below. All the details are there, but it is October 16th through the 18th in Houston. People are flying in from all over the world. So can you look, you want answers, answers that you're never going to hear at another seminar. Come to this one. You're going to be blown away. Check it out. >> Yeah, you're you're [laughter] a historian on this topic.
(11:27) Honestly, I it's one of the reasons why I look forward to this conversation just because of your historical background is amazing. >> It really goes back to the First World War. And at the end of the war, they had a lot of munitions left over. And guess what they had inside them? NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. [laughter] >> That's what they were that's what they were using. It's amazing to think about.
(11:48) So, they [clears throat] convinced farmers that this was the fertilizer that they needed. Well, what people didn't realize and it was it was um born out in a book called Soil Grass Cancer by Andre Basan in 1947 that NPK blocks copper uptake by the root system of the plants. Well, if it doesn't get into the into the grass, it can't get into the animal.
(12:13) And suddenly we've we've lost the the mechanism of of restoring the copper. [clears throat] Then, as you know, the 70s and 80s is the introduction of glyphosate. >> Yeah. So, yeah. So, even before this chemical, it was the fertilizers that were blocking car copper. Now, enters glyphosate. >> And people need to understand that um it was it was developed as an industrial pipe cleaner.
(12:37) That was its original patent. Get rid of the plaque in the industrial pipes. >> Yeah. Because it's mostly minerals and it binds minerals. >> Exactly. And so then it became an antibiotic. And then someone happened to notice the runoff at a plant and there was no vegetation where the runoff was. They thought, "Oh, we've got a we've got an herbicide here.
(12:54) " >> And so, um, it's been studied very carefully and people need to know that glyphosate chelates minerals on a logarithmic scale. So if you're familiar with earthquakes, earthquake of three, dishes rattle, no one's hurt. >> Earthquake of 12, no one survives. So it turns out Don Huber at Purdue University is the one who developed this scale.
(13:22) Um, glyphosate chilates calcium and magnesium at a three. Okay, it's not too bad. >> Zinc and iron at a nine. >> Mhm. That's pretty high. >> Yeah, it's pretty high. copper at a 12. >> Wow. Right. >> So then, so what we're faced with is, well, what does that mean? Because th those are are significant numbers.
(13:42) Well, what it means is that glyphosate is chilating copper a thousand times faster than iron or zinc, but a billion times faster than calcium and magnesium. And the problem we've got, Dan, is when people see big numbers like that right over their head and said, "Well, I don't understand that, so it can't be important.
(14:02) " >> Right? when in fact it's really important. And so when I was in college, my mom was the executive of her dad's estate. And with the proceeds, she bought a Mercedes 350 SL. And so what did I do with that car? I was driving in Florida at twice the speed limit. I was going 140 miles an hour. Was a real rush.
(14:24) [laughter] Thank god I didn't get caught, but I was going twice the speed limit. >> Okay. >> No, I was born in 52 when I was just a little tikeke. guy named Chuck Joerger breaks the sound barrier. So, he's going 10 times the speed limit. Right. Right. >> We can't relate to a thousand times, a billion times. >> Yeah. >> And so, what people need to understand is that the the country that was most opposed to glyphosate introduction back in the 80s was France.
(14:51) They were vehemently they didn't ban it, but they were very opposed to it. So, they did a study in 2022. They thought, "Wow, the French were against this. I wonder how it affected their mineral status. Wonder what's going on." And what they discovered is that 99% of French citizens in 2022 were peeing glyphosate in their urine.
(15:12) Which means [clears throat] glyphosate now is worldwide. It's in the air. It's in the water table. That's right. >> It's no longer just on the commercial soil. Right. And so we just have to really come to terms with that that that there is this uh and it's I've read that glyphosate the ninth most most threatening chemical in farming.
(15:31) I'm like I >> I don't even want to think about the other. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I I do a lot of pieces on uh you know this chemical because it's even opening up the gut barrier, the blood brain barrier. It's making >> uh disrupting causing more heavy metal issues. I mean it it's very very disruptive.
(15:50) And recently, I'm on the Maha board, right? Okay. I think the Maha um Bobby took a lot of heat because well, why aren't they able to ban glyphosate, you know, and you know, it was national security? It's protected on the national security because what people don't understand is that >> we many crops will not grow without it. Right now, we have a soil problem and it it is a big issue.
(16:18) You can't just pull this chemical right now. We're trying to build the soil and Bobb's spending a lot of time in conversations around this. >> I I've talked to three separate soil aronomists, very intense converse are really talented people >> and and in the course of the conversation they're saying, "So what so what you're saying is you want to ban glyphosate.
(16:38) " I said, "That's exactly what I want to do." And to a person, they said, "Can't do it." >> Yeah. >> Not not short term. To your point, it's just >> we're too dependent economically. I mean, but it [clears throat] it shows you the devastation it's caused in the American diet in in the soil. Uh, you know, it's banned in places like Italy.
(16:55) When you go there and you eat a tomato or anything, you say, "What?" Like, I mean, I buy organic here. I, you know, why can't I taste something like this? Why is this taste so much better? And it really is the lack of glyphosate. >> Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's not complicated. People may know about the shikamate pathway which is really important for the bugs not so much for us but our intestine doesn't work without the shikimate pathway.
(17:19) >> Yeah. So how and our brains don't work without >> Exactly. And and it was in 198 1987 the chair of chemistry at Harvard published an article talking about how glyphosate was knocking out the very first enzyme of seven in the shikcomamate pathway. Well guess what? It was copper dependent.
(17:39) They knew in ' 87 there was a problem. So this pathway is basically your body makes um certain neurotransmitters for the brain. So your brain functions [laughter] it absolutely alters it. >> Yeah. Exactly. So you're saying that glyphosate alters it and then it knocks out the copper which is it's copper dependent >> to make things like serotonin etc.
(18:03) So your brain functions normal. >> Yeah. It's it's like a battery. Copper is like a battery in many in many functions. you take the battery out, it's not going to work. >> Yeah. >> And so people aren't aware of that. They don't what they don't realize is that technically they're only 11 copper enzymes.
(18:23) Doesn't sound like a lot, >> but but these are blockbuster enzymes. Like we were talking about cytochrome coxidase. >> Every molecule of oxygen that doesn't get turned into water >> is going to become oxidative stress. Well, you you're the master of oxidative stress. you know that as well as anybody. >> And so oxidative stress is just a sign of lack of copper.
(18:44) But it's the co the antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutates glutathione peroxidase um catalase they don't work without copper. >> Well and and I know copper has a a profound effect on many hormones. >> Oh yeah. >> Right. So you know talk about that relationship because you know a lot of people they start I've watched it. people start adding copper back into their, you know, diet, uh, and their hormones like absolutely it's just like >> they come back.
(19:16) >> Yeah, they come back. It's >> the the the way I've um come to understand it is the hormones key off of oxidative stress. I I take a very different view of a lot of the practitioners. I don't believe that um the hormones run the body. I think they respond to stress. They're very powerful chemicals. That's right.
(19:38) >> But if the oxidative stress begins to build, that's going to have a decided effect on the hormones. You bring copper into the equation and suddenly you've changed the level of oxidative stress. It think of it as like barometric pressure. And so when the barometric pressure changes, the weather changes. And I think that's really what happens to the hormones that we've been led to believe that that the hormones are the driver or that this bow tie um gland in our throat runs our body.
(20:08) Well, not not really. I mean, when you get into the >> Well, because many people have taken their thyroid out, I think we've realized [laughter] they're still living. >> They're still ticking. But but there's a really famous uh endocrinologist in Germany named Jensen's MAG. He wrote a wonderful article in 2012 in in Europe they're called endocrinologists here in the states they're called endocrinologists >> but um but he wrote this beautiful article that really described what the thyroid hormone is and this I think it's really be useful for your listeners uh
(20:42) and followers to to hear this [clears throat] every hormone is a signaling peptide and every hormone has a location where it does its job right Mhm. >> And so >> receptors >> receptors, right? So the T3 hangs out at complex 4 of the mitochondria. And what's it it's sniffing for oxidative stress. >> How's how's how's the level of superoxide? How's the level of hydrogen peroxide? And when it begins to rise, it's a signaling peptide.
(21:15) It sends a signal back to the liver to make more ceruopplasmine, which is the copper protein that I'm sure we'll talk about. >> Yeah. >> And and what is ceruopplasmine? It's a supply line for copper to feed the mitochondria to lower the oxidative stress. >> It's it's the most elegant explanation for why the thyroid is so important, but it's not running the show, but it's making sure that the copper driven mechanisms are doing their job.
(21:43) >> Yeah. So again, copper at the heart of it. Well, you brought up the Cerrilla plasma because there's I think that's where some of the myth around copper toxicity started. Am I right on that? So you take us through that history because there there are people out here going, "Well, wait a minute.
(21:59) I you know, my doctor, my alternative doctor, my chiropractor, they told me to be careful with copper." I was one of those people, right? Okay. I I've turned, you know, um over the years, but most people still believe that. No, it's it's the very first thing. If I'm talking to a practitioner and I'm trying to bring [clears throat] them along, they're I can see their their their tensions building inside them, right? But isn't it toxic? >> Yeah, exactly.
(22:22) So, let let's discuss that. >> U so you it's fascinating to talk about a protein probably one of the biggest proteins in our body, 146 amino acids. There's there's very few proteins that are bigger than that. But when it was first discovered in in n in the 1940s, it was first formally written about in 1948, but um it had eight copper atoms inside it.
(22:46) There's nothing like that in the body. I was just like what? And and in that seminal article uh um by by Holberg and um I'm blanking on the the other author Laurel Homeberg and Laurel. Um they made a very specific mention that ascorbic acid denatures ceruopplasmine which causes it to leak the coppers out. Well, what does denature means? It means unfolded.
(23:17) the the folding of a of a complicated protein like that's going to be pretty sophisticated, >> but it causes this uh unfolding process >> and the copper comes out >> and then that has been interpreted by by many people as well the copper is now toxic. Well, what people need to understand is that um that really goes back to an article written um by Carl Fefeifer in the 1960s.
(23:41) >> Yeah. It all started with Carl Fefeifer, >> right? And he made reference to copper unbound from ceruopplasma. He said it right. >> But then later in the article he referred to unbound copper. >> Okay. So unbound copper but then it went from unbound copper to unbound copper is toxic copper. >> Exactly.
(24:00) Exactly. And medicine's never been the same. And so what's important for people to understand think maybe the there's a blueprint that runs our body. I think maybe that unbound copper or it does it's technically not unbound. It's either going to be bound to album. >> Albumin it'll bind to >> or transcuprine or histadine.
(24:19) Those will be the one of the three. >> But when the copper comes outside of its protein, it has a job. It's not there to to be toxic. It it's actually the the neutrfils which are the marines of the immune system. They can't get into fagocitic burst without copper. And it's that copper that comes out of ceruoplasm that's feeding the neutrfils in the body. That's a big deal.
(24:47) >> Um, another function that people may or may not know about [clears throat] we have um we have a lot of iron in our body and iron is has a positive regulator and a negative regulator. So, a positive regulator on a football team would be the quarterback. They're making the plays, >> calling the shots, making the pass, [clears throat] and we've come to accept that.
(25:14) Who's the negative regulator on a football team? It's usually the middle linebacker. Shuts down plays. Dick Buckus, 54. Boom. Most feared player. >> I would I would talk about Lambert. >> Okay. Of course, Jack. >> Yeah. Right. [laughter] Exactly. I forgot your origins. Exactly. Pittsburgh. But um but the thing is a negative regulator is very different than a positive regulator.
(25:35) And so when copper becomes unbalanced, [clears throat] it's going to affect an iron hormone called heepsidon. And heepsidon is a blockbuster hormone that a lot of people don't know about. People don't usually know about the steroid hormones, but Hepsidon [clears throat] was discovered by Thomas Gans and Elizabeth Nath at UCLA back in 2000.
(26:02) So, it's really it's a fairly new um part of of our awareness of how the body is run. But what heepsidon does is it shuts down the iron recycling system that we rely on in our body every second of every day. We're we're taking offline two and a half million red blood cells every second. >> Every second. And in the course of 24 hours, it's 200 billion red blood cells.
(26:31) And and if if you're under stress, if you're taking iron supplements, if you're dealing with an infection or an inflammation, >> heepsidon is going north in a big way. And what it does is it shuts down the release of iron in that recycling system. And >> so now you're storing it. >> Now you're storing it >> into feritin >> into feritin and into what's called the labile iron pool.
(27:01) People probably have never heard that term, but there's and labile does not mean happy, does not mean free. It means highly reactive. And the label iron pools are hanging out not just in the cell, they're hanging out in [clears throat] the mitochondria and in the nucleus and in the loome. And these pools of iron are very dis disruptive especially when you have a lack of cirulo plasma.
(27:27) But but the thing is the um the hepiden is very very disruptive to our overall physiology. And the reason why the unbound copper is important is heepsidon comes in three flavors. There's heep 20, heep 22 and heep 25 referring to 20 amino acids, 22 amino acids, and 25 amino acids. Well, the he 25 must have copper to activate it. >> It's a really big deal.
(27:58) And the reason why heiden is so important is that if you do have an infection or if you are dealing with inflammation, you want to get iron out of circulation it away. You know, I matter of fact, I've I've watched that, you know, happen to people. It's like, well, yeah, I have this infection, you know, but they also tell me I have low iron, so now they're going to give me iron.
(28:19) I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you have low iron because the body's pulling out the iron not to feed the the bacteria, the virus, whatever is going on there. Right? Absolutely. >> Yeah. And people don't understand that when people say, "Oh my um you know, because right now it's very invogue to, you know, look at um someone's stored iron, their feritin levels, and go you're in danger, right?" It's like, well, it could be elevated just because of inflammation. It could be a virus.
(28:46) It could be sickness, bacteria, and it's sequestering it and storing it. >> So, it's not so simple. >> No, it's No, it's not. And let's let's take that on directly. And and I want to [clears throat] I want to just >> hold that thought because I I want to clean this up for people. A lot of you use a lot of words.
(29:03) I know that I mean that even things that I don't understand. So I know my viewers may not understand it. So let's just bring a cap on it. You did say one thing. You said that ascorbic acid, which we're probably going to have to have a separate conversation about the vitamin C that everyone's told to take. Exactly. Okay. Um is actually part of the problem of copper toxicity.
(29:22) Did you reference that? Okay. Exactly right. Yeah. So if you're taking a bunch of vitamin C, you could be um creating a top copper issue. >> That could be you are >> you are okay. All right. So that's a separate conversation. I want to get back to that. Okay. Because people have to understand that ascorbic acids, not vitamin C that they're getting in their their orange, so to speak. Okay.
(29:41) All right. All right. Now, you've made the point that um copper in this relationship with iron is very important. >> Uh you know, >> absolutely important. >> Yeah. Exactly. So again, when we're talking about fatigue, iron is a big issue, but it's not like this iron topic is not what people think. So in simple terms, let's peel this apart. So great.
(30:04) Um the most important thing to understand about iron [clears throat] is it needs to be in it needs to be recycled at a micro level and at a macro level. >> Okay, >> the macro [clears throat] is this. It's called the reticulo endothel. Reticular endothelial >> endthelial system went brain. >> That's all right. No.
(30:23) And and so it took me two years to figure out that reticular endothelium meant recycling. >> Okay. >> Fine. Figure that out. Okay. So that's the macro system. The micro system is in the mitochondria. So technically they don't know how oxygen gets into the mitochondria. We know the iron's the the pay master carrying it, but they don't really know technically how it gets into the mitochondria, which is an amazing thought.
(30:50) The closest they've gotten is Whit Whittenberg Whittenberg 2007, but they can't >> Wow. >> They can't break through. >> One of God's mysteries. >> Exactly. One of God's mysteries. So, iron is very important for delivering the oxygen, but it's also very important, as you know, inside the mitochondria, you have hem proteins and what are called iron sulfur clusters.
(31:11) And what the mitochondria, [clears throat] people love to refer to it as the uh um energy factory of the cell. >> No, think of it as like a a GM plant that's making cars and they have their own energy source. And so the mitochondria is very engaged in a lot of activity. It's recycling calcium. It's recycling iron.
(31:33) It's recycling amino acids. It's an these are incredibly uh active organels, but they've got to have a power source. And that's really what complex 4 is about and complex 5. And so what happens though is that if the individual gets under stress, know anybody under stress? >> Mhm. >> Like everybody, [clears throat] you're going and you're going to the stress capital of the world in a couple days.
(31:57) [laughter] >> Right. But um when you're under stress, it changes your minerals. We know it causes magnesium loss, but what as you alluded to, it causes a sequestering of iron. Well, if the iron starts to get trapped in the mitochondria, that's what causes the fatigue, the cellular energy deficiency.
(32:20) And there's different models. You you can have a model with uh 60% loss of energy, 80% loss of energy, 90 96% loss of energy all based on how much iron is building in the mitochondria and the corresponding relationship would be lack of copper. What what people need to understand to really as you say put a cap on it, copper is the general.
(32:46) >> Yeah. Okay. >> And iron is the foot soldier. Mhm. >> And so in our body uh [clears throat] ide under ideal conditions we have 100 mg of copper. Well that fits on the head of a 1in stick pin. It's a very small amount of copper. >> But we're told if you when you get into the iron literature, we're told that women typically have about 4,000 milligrams of iron and men 5,000.
(33:14) um because of our testo testosterone, we can handle more iron. But years ago, it was actually um on the on the eve of my 65th birthday. I called up the the the dean of iron biology. His name is Robert Kricton. He was in the Netherlands. >> He didn't know me from Adam. >> Called him up.
(33:34) I was I was amazed that he even answered the phone. >> And I explained who I was. And I said, I I I'm going to ask a favor. He said, "Sure. What What is it?" I said, "Would you sign one of your His textbook is used in all the medical schools around the world." I said, "Would you sign over a book to me?" He said, "I would be delighted.
(33:51) " And so he's taking down my address. And then he said, "Now, Morley, you know that we accumulate one milligram of iron every day we're on the planet." I said, "Yeah, I know that. I've read your I've read your book. I've read your articles." And so, we need to have a a moment to to let that sink in. I'm 73. times 365 means I've got 26,000 milligrams of iron in my body.
(34:16) >> Is that true? >> That's absolutely true. >> Oh >> yeah. You have less, >> but you've got way more than 5,000. >> And what people need to realize is that aging is not complicated. Aging is iron accumulation. Every symptom, every facet of aging is the buildup of iron that's going to create oxidative stress.
(34:39) And that's where iron's got a bad rap. Exactly. Right. You know, it's c it's oxidative. It d But again, it's it's um yet there's all these people who are iron deficient in an odd way because they can't access it. >> Iron deficient on paper, not iron deficient in the tissue. >> Right? And that's the mistake that people are making is is they're not realizing that when iron is showing low on the the blood test, it means it's stuck in the tissue.
(35:10) It's very well documented in the literature. >> But would that even express itself in feritin levels, which is stored iron, [laughter] you know? I mean, because >> how much time have you got? >> Yeah, because [clears throat and cough] you want to talk about feritin. >> I I mean, I there's a lot of debate. I mean, again, I'm here's the thing.
(35:28) I have two groups of people out here, right? I have the average person who's like just fatigued and >> I get it. >> Please, we're going to give you answers. We're going to tell you how much copper you need to make. We're going to give you answers to what you know why you don't feel well and what to do. I promise you.
(35:44) But there's also another group of people out there that is very privy to this elevated feritin. Knock down your feritin, blah blah blah. You're going to die because of it. If you're over 100, for goodness sakes, you're going to die. But it's not that simple. So let let let's talk about feritin for just a minute. [laughter] >> Oh my stars.
(36:06) Um 2018 I'm having a conversation with Douglas Kell [snorts] uh at at that time he was um at the University of um he's now at the University of Manchester but he's got more degrees than a thermometer. He's got this big wall of books behind him. Just we're the same age. Very affable guy. Again, I when I find my whole strategy for this research, and I've read about 12,000 articles, but when I find an article that I'm really impressed with, I'll just call the author, >> say, "Thank you.
(36:34) " And that they don't get a lot of calls. >> I've done that myself. Yeah. >> But they don't get a lot of calls. >> So, one, >> they're always honored, actually. They love it. >> They really do. And you can't get them off the phone, actually. But anyways, another story. So we so we were having a a call on on um it was back then um wasn't Zoom whatever the the platform was but um I said Dr.
(36:58) kill what's the ideal feritin for a human being he holds up his hand he says zero >> I said what he said morley I want to make sure you understand this he's the world's authority on feritin mind you um his signature article was 2009 Iron behaving badly had 2400 footnotes usually an article [clears throat] that has 100 footnotes is a lot 200 over the top 2400 footnotes.
(37:27) But he said, I want to make sure you understand this. He said, rising feritin on a blood test is not a sign of iron vitality. It's a sign of organ pathophysiology. Do you understand what I just said? Said absolutely do. >> And and everyone's got got it wrong. They don't understand what feritin is about.
(37:46) I [clears throat] think it's an immune marker. It's not an iron storage marker. >> And so what we have to do is back up and let's talk about >> Well, I I tend to agree with that statement. Yeah, it makes more sense. >> Yeah. >> And so, um, feritin comes in multiple forms. [laughter] There's heavy chain and light chain. >> I didn't know this.
(38:07) >> Okay. So, heavy chain means it has the ferro oxidase enzyme function that's found in ceruopplasmine. It's a really big deal. And so, feritin ideally is an ATM machine. Put iron in, take iron out. Iron in, iron out. >> [clears throat] >> light chain is like a bank vault. Doesn't work the same way. And so the the the nuance is you have heavy chain, light chain.
(38:39) And if the light chain that gets involved in uh what's called feritinophagy autophagy applied to feritin and it doesn't complete its cycle properly 10 amino acids get cleaved off and then it gets secreted into the bloodstream. It is a sign of organ pathophysiology. Just as Dr. Keel said [clears throat] the dilemma we've got is we don't know what that serum that serum feritin they're empty shotgun shells.
(39:11) There's no iron in that. >> And that's what what are people measuring when they ask for their feritin for their doctor? >> They're going to get a they're going to get a serum ferotin >> and it's it's not going to tell them whether it's heavy chain or light chain. But then then there's something called denatured feritin and it's called hemocitarin.
(39:31) And hemocitarine is where iron goes to die. So that feritin will hold 4500 atoms of iron. Hemocitarine 45,000 atoms of iron. So there's a t-fold increase in potential disruption in the [clears throat] body. And where does hein hang out? in the bone marrow, in the spleen, and in the liver where the iron, the macro iron recycling system.
(39:58) And so the world is being hijacked now because there really are three critical ways of measuring iron status in the human body. You want to know their hemoglobin. Hemoglobin and myoglobin account for 80% of the iron in our body. And from the time of the civil war to 1972 when a very important article was written by Jacobs who's a famous hematologist in England or in Wales um suddenly they put the spotlight on feritin but hemoglobin was the standard for measuring iron status inside the body then you and that's again that's 80% of the iron it's
(40:40) a huge bololis of iron 10% of the iron >> so I mean just looking at hemoglobin that carries it I And so elevated hemoglobin, they would say that's elevated iron. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> Well, because Yeah. Okay. I mean, is how accurate is that compared to just looking at serum feritin? >> Well, I I would say it's more accurate because there's a lot more of it.
(41:04) And and hemoglobin comes in one flavor. Feritin comes in multiple flavors. Okay. >> So, we don't really know what we're measuring when we get the serum. And so then we've got 10% in in the feritin protein, but it's supposed to be inside the cell. It's not supposed to be in the blood, >> right? >> Blood is outside the cell.
(41:22) So when it's showing up in the in the blood, we have a problem. >> That that's what people don't appreciate is that now the the controversy is high feritin is easy to understand. We know there's it's most likely a liver breakdown >> and there's the the feritin protein is being secreted into the blood and it's really trying to let the practitioner know we got a serious problem here.
(41:45) It's the low feritin that's very confusing for people and what I've come to realize and it's not there's no article that says oh here's the answer to low feritin. Well, yeah, but you're confusing me because, you know, he said that feritin should be zero. >> Zero. Exactly. >> So, what is low feritin then? [laughter] Right.
(42:06) I mean, >> thank you for picking that up. >> And then high feritin, I mean, what is high feritin then? >> So, when feritin gets above 150, people should be taking notice of it. When it gets above a thousand, you have a serious problem. >> Well, that could be hemocchromattosis. >> Um, not likely, but it's possible.
(42:24) It's possible. >> Okay. If someone said I have a thousand, I'd be like, you most likely have hemocatosis. >> More likely that the serum that the serum iron is going to be elevated than the serum feritin. But but the thing is uh I absolutely understand the confusion because it it doesn't make sense. If it's supposed to be zero, yeah, >> why are we worrying about this low feritin? >> Yeah.
(42:43) >> And there's no good explanation for it. It is being it's part of the zeitgeist now is when feritin gets low gets below 50 people start to get really tweaked. >> They do. >> Yeah. I mean I've had I've matter of fact [clears throat] that was going to be one of my qu once it's zero. I've noticed when people go below 50 they get weak.
(43:02) >> Yeah. But [laughter] but the question is we need to know what their copper status is when we're looking at iron. >> So okay. So please put a cap on this for the average person, right? Because you know copper has a very important relationship with this iron issue. Exactly. >> And and all people watching this want to do is like you know how do I you're telling me iron is very important but too much is bad.
(43:27) You're telling me copper is so important with iron you know help. >> No that the key is I I think our ancestors knew how important copper was in the diet because it it's most prevalent in like organ meats. I remember growing up having liver every Friday. It's just like um but that but that's what I grew up with. >> Oh, and you also get your vitamin A.
(43:50) You get >> get vitamin A. Absolutely. Got a lot lot of nutrients in in that organ meat. But that's not the only place to find uh copper. Obviously shellfish and >> you know nuts and seeds. But the thing is there was there wasn't a lot of discussion about minerals when you were growing up.
(44:08) The doctor never talked about minerals. that wasn't part of their their um lexicon. But but I think what's happened is we now live in a society where they started fortifying food with iron in 1941. >> Yeah. But it's it's literally flake iron. I mean what do you call it part my assistant back there? Do you remember we took the highowered magnet and we took Cheerios? We ground up Cheerios.
(44:35) She was part of this, right? Because and we took a magnet and went and all these literally iron >> filings. >> Filings. There's the word. I couldn't come up with that. I remember. And it was like just Yeah. And from baby food, too. And from these filings, they form strings to the highowered magnet. >> I mean, they were putting filings of iron in baby food. Cheerios.
(45:00) It's still there. That was a year ago we did that. >> Well, I you know, again, back to putting a cap on it. We know as of 2020 there's more to the story. And really what the book Cure Your Fatigue is is to introduce people to the idea that there's more to obtaining health than what you we've been led to believe. >> And we've got to get down to a granular level of understanding how is energy made inside the body, inside the cells.
(45:28) You're the master of the cell, >> but you got to understand what is that process of recycling ADP and ATP and [snorts] iron is absolutely essent of of iron, it's not going to work right. And what we've been led to believe is we don't need a chef. When in fact, our body, our metabolism, our immune system is absolutely [clears throat] dependent on the chef.
(45:56) And that's copper. And so it plays this pivotal role of regulating iron and oxygen at the same time >> and not creating static. >> So really copper is really the key to utilizing your iron, not storing too much iron. So therefore, if you have right copper levels, you're going to age slower. Exactly. >> Right.
(46:19) You're going to have much better energy. Um, and it's going to be regulating all of these mineral processes, you know, energy processes, oxygen processes. I mean, >> that's exactly I mean it is literally the, you know, the conductor. Grab, grab me the book that you just gave. This is a presentation. Yeah, grab me that. Okay.
(46:41) So, why do you have a picture? Okay. This is a whole presentation that you did um on copper, right? Why do you have right here circled on this big massive ship? >> So this big massive ship has a rudder and on the rudder there's a section of the rudder. It's called a trim tab. Was developed by Buck >> Mr. If you're a boater you know what that is.
(47:02) >> Okay. Well he was actually working at the Navy during the war and in 1943 they came to him and said the ships have gotten so big they have too much power they can't turn the r they can't turn the ships now. Mhm. >> And he was faced with how do I solve this problem? And he came up with this trim tab.
(47:23) And then when the captain of the ship wants to turn the ship, he's turning the trim tab, which then allows the rudder to turn. >> And and copper, I think, is the trim tab in our body. >> Meaning it really is what controls. >> Exactly. Absolutely right. Yeah. >> And and so the key is that people have never been led to believe that.
(47:40) And so what's the >> It's cool, too, because it's a great analogy because it's something very small. >> Very small. >> Yeah. Look at the size of that boat. I know, right? It's something very small. It's a small amount of copper. >> Exactly. >> In the body. >> And And that trim tab is made of brass. >> Yeah. That's >> It's always made of brass.
(47:56) >> Yeah. Which contains copper. >> Yeah. It's 88% copper. So the thing is the meme that's playing in medicine in conventional medicine is you're anemic and you're copper toxic. >> Right. >> And as long as I can get you to believe that, then I've got a customer for life. As long as I can convince you that you need more iron, stay away from that copper thing. It's it's poison.
(48:20) And that's been running the show for a lot of years. >> And again, co, you know, iron's great. Take a great form of iron, you'll get it in your food. But really, again, it's copper is what's been misplacing the iron. Exactly. >> Causing problems. >> The the lack of copper allows iron to run a muck. Mhm. >> And and you know, it's the [clears throat] way the way I refer to iron is >> and then it's end up in the tissues being oxidative instead of being utilized.
(48:46) >> Exactly. I refer to iron as a four-year-old with a hammer. So go go back in time, picture you've got a four-year-old and you hand him a hammer and then you go next door to have a cup of coffee with your neighbor. >> Well, no one in their right mind would do that. >> And so people need to realize that that iron we can't live without it.
(49:06) It's a it's a central part of our physiology, >> but it is a very reactive substance, especially in the presence of oxygen. And we're breathing air. It's got 21% oxygen. Well, something's [clears throat] going to happen. You know, it's only a matter of time. And so, the the reg regulation of the iron and the oxygen is critical for the health and the well-being of the individual.
(49:33) How much? You said it earlier actually because you said what was in the diet, but for people listening again, how much copper do you need daily? >> What I Let me back up. When I realized the problem in 2020, I helped inspire a a copper product >> and it's called Recuperate. And it has two milligrams >> in that in that um product. >> And what I do >> because they're getting some in their diet.
(50:00) So >> very small amount [clears throat] very again you you don't >> less than a milligram. >> Oh absolutely less. Yeah. In fact uh Leslie Cle one of the world's authorities on copper uh he did a study back in 2011 and about 75% of people are not getting anywhere near the amount that they need.
(50:19) It's a very very small amount in in the uh >> I think I read it somewhere from you that um I think the diet in the 1800s maybe early 1900s was um four to six milligrams y >> a day. a day. >> The diet >> the just the natural diet, >> right? >> Again, the soils were different. >> So, wouldn't we emulate that, too? >> Exactly.
(50:42) And that's what I do is I tell people to start with one capsule, which has two milligrams, >> get up to two, we're at four, see how you feel at six. Now, I stop it there. What my clients do, >> they've I've I've had clients take a lot more than that. >> Really? >> Oh, yeah. >> Why? Because they just keep feeling more they keep feeling better.
(51:02) And again in review because it's having an effect on their iron and their their mitochondria, their you know I mean their thyroid hormone, other hormones. I mean yeah I I have a a a client he's actually a friend worldrenowned scientist. I won't identify him by name >> but um he has diabetes. He's had diabetes ever since he came to the states to go to Hopkins to get his doctorate.
(51:28) And I guess I was, this probably goes back, yeah, about eight years ago. So we were both 65, same age. And [clears throat] I said, "Why am I here?" He said, "I want you to cure me of diabetes." >> I wouldn't say that I've cured him, per se, but he takes a lot of copper and he's rocking.
(51:48) He can't believe how much better he feels. Blood sugar is very stable. He's a been able to get off almost all of his medications. So right now copper peptide is very popular. It's not copper. It's more like a chaperone. It affects copper. So kind of talk about copper peptide because women are taking it for their collagen, their hair.
(52:06) Right. Right. You know, so >> it's it's actually a naturally occurring uh form of copper. The GHK copper peptide was um discovered by Lauren Pickert back in 1970. And um and then he he wanted to develop a supplement. Well, the FDA said no. So, so he made it transermal and and they said, "Sure, it's not going to work, but in fact, it probably works better.
(52:31) " But it's a very uh very popular form. Um you can get it both in a tablet and in transermal. Um but I think that ideally what we want to do is get it in our diet. >> And the the key is to make sure it's getting into the copper enzymes. Mhm. >> And the reason why that's so important, you keep referencing vitamin A. What people need to know is that there are enzymes in our body that are copper pumps and there's one pump that's designed to just make suo plasmine.
(53:06) And what it does is it loads copper into that protein into that,46 amino acid protein. But that enzyme gets activated by a derivative of retinol, by a derivative of vitamin A, >> and that's called ATP7B. And it's a a sister enzyme called ATP7A that loads all the other copper enzymes. Again, the key is retinol. It's actually retinoic acid, but the but the key is those enzymes don't fire up without retinol.
(53:43) And what I think people need to understand is the the reason why um this protocol is so helpful is it's looking at a finite number of steps that people need to take in their diet and in their supplement routine to get the right nutrients to fire up these copper enzymes. I don't know that you get that with the GHK copper peptide.
(54:05) you're just getting you're getting three really important amino acids in the copper, but you need to have the other nutrients to fire up the um the loading >> retinol. I mean, there's a lot of again I it's a god there's so many conversations here, right? And and very important ones and I I know the biochemistry is deep, but it's so worth listening deeply because retinol again, we're told that it can be toxic.
(54:31) Um but again, there's a difference. you know people taking beta carotene and everything and beta carotene does not simply convert to retinol um a cow eats the grass >> correct >> and and you know they benefits like vitamin K right they they take it and they make retinol which is a form of vitamin A that we're able to utilize very easily unlike beta carotene in the grass >> um so you know that form is different in the beta carotene I don't even know if there's a benefit of the beta carotene Well, well, there is, but but the thing
(55:04) is it takes 12 beta carotene >> to make one 12 to1 ratio. >> 12:1 ratio. And so, you know, God bless the cows, right? >> But the thing there's a lot of confusion around it. And I think where there's a lot of confusion with vitamin A. >> Yeah. Because just to put a cap on what I said, you have I've read that it's the copper that really affects the copper deficiency can affect the retinol toxicity.
(55:28) >> Absolutely. And then you even went on further to say, but it really probably is stemming from glyphosate. >> Absolutely. >> You know, that really is at the top of this whole problem of why we're starting to see these vitamin A toxicities. >> Yeah. I mean, when you when you get into the the literature and you find out how does the immune system work, how does how does the body signal, how does how does energy get made, and you really find out how important these nutrients are like copper, like vitamin A, like
(55:55) magnesium, things like that. You're saying, well, why do we believe that there's such a thing as toxicity? And it's a very contrived scientific conditions to create the toxicity. And I'm not denying that it happens, but the scale of it is not anywhere near what people have been led to believe. And so the the key is getting people to realize that our ancestors without the benefit of all the science, I think, were actually much healthier than we are because they didn't have the poisons in their farming that we have today.
(56:26) >> Yeah. >> And it's just it's a very different world. >> Yeah. It's a very very different world. So just again these toxicities, right? Copper toxicity actually could be linked to a retinol issue. >> Right. >> Retinol toxicity could be linked to a copper um problem and a glyphosate issue. >> Exactly. No. >> So, but again, what it does is it puts copper at the you know the again it's the the commander the chef.
(56:52) >> Exactly. And so I've I I um I teach a course. It's a 16-week course for practitioners in the public to learn how the body really works. And u one of my students uh from Switzerland was really banging on this copper toxicity. >> Just like okay, I can't I can't >> Well, people will bring up Wilson's disease.
(57:16) We're going to get that in the chat, right? Wilson's it's a genetic disorder and you know copper. >> So that's one in 30,000. >> So there's 7,500 people in the United States that have Wilson's disease. I've worked with 8,500 clients. I've yet to meet a client that they thought they had Wilson's, but they didn't. They didn't. I've not met one person yet.
(57:34) But the thing is, um, he by virtue of his, uh, Chinese water torture, he got me to write another book, which is which will be coming out in the fall on the myth of copper toxicity. >> And it really got me to to delve into what is this all about? And to your point, uh, there are only three recognized conditions of copper toxicity.
(57:56) Wilson's disease is one of them. The funny thing is the the Wilson's condition, Wilson's disease condition. It's not a copper issue. It's actually a retinol issue. >> Yeah, I I led to that and only [laughter] because I've read your stuff, right? So, it's like, yes, it's actually a retinol issue. Yeah, vitamin A >> and and and Lud Mill I mean um but Lana Ludenko and Hopkins developed a synthetic form of retinol and cured people of Wilson's disease which is mind-blowing to think about but Wilson's disease is one of them. Uh second, when
(58:26) a woman gets pregnant, uh it was actually um uh uh Krebs who figured this out. Uh Adolf Hans Adolf Krebs um in 1928, >> he discovered that when a woman gets pregnant, their copper level doubles. >> That's an enormous change in the body. >> And then subsequent to that research, they found out that the ceruo plasma level triples inside a pregnant woman's body.
(58:57) So if copper is toxic, why would mother nature double the copper presence and triple the curulo plasma presence? So that that doesn't pass the sniff test. And then the third comes by way of research by Jamie Collins who's a very gifted professor of uh minerals and nutrition at University of Florida in Gainesville. Back in 2011, he let the cat out of the bag.
(59:21) He said the only time that copper becomes toxic is if you are truly iron deficient. It it's called absolute iron deficiency. >> Not not the scam that a lot of people think they have, which is functional iron deficiency. But when you have absolute iron deficiency, when it's not just low in the blood, but it's low in the tissue, >> um copper is filling up in the liver.
(59:44) >> It it it just builds and builds and builds. And that's the physiological response to low copper. And what the [clears throat] really reason behind it is the body is trying to capture the iron wherever it can and it's going to come to the liver first. >> Oh wow. >> And that's why it's >> And by the way, that co that how I found your work.
(1:00:06) Um I had >> thought I was copper poison. So interesting. I was it was when I first started this was many years ago here, but copper peptide just came out, right? And I was like taking it and I was also rubbing it on my skin because I'm like, "Oh, the trans ddermal worms, right?" So, I was trying this, trying that, and um anyways, I I started getting these waves of nausea.
(1:00:28) >> It was like, >> you know, so I start, you know, [clears throat] look, [laughter] I'm like, "Oh, I I think I have coppery." So, later I, you know, I >> I dug deeper and I think I found just some random thing that you had wrote. But anyways, it was like, well, no, that's the iron. Exactly. >> I was getting nauseous from the iron, so I was more iron poisoned.
(1:00:50) >> Exactly. >> Than I was copper toxicus. Was I right? >> No, you're you're absolutely right. And and yesterday, it's it's really funny. Divine intervention. one of my students, she's a a nurse in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and [clears throat] she she emails me this article, which I I don't I would not have found this on my own, but this comes by way of the Sulkq Institute, >> and it just it just got published this week.
(1:01:19) This is right off the press, but they're looking at it's called sustained disregulation of iron and glutathione homeostasis induces what they call chrono ferroptosis. There's a big word, right? So, it's ferrotosis is iron induced cell death. Chrono is over time. M >> and and what uh these authors uh Dar and um Mayor >> basically this article is validation of what what the book is about.
(1:01:52) >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. And that's a copy for you. >> So in a nutshell, what did it say and why what's what are they why glutathione? What's going on there? >> Well, the thing is what they what they've been able to prove now they're looking at Alzheimer's conditions. that's their primary focus and Parkinson's [clears throat] what they're able to document is it's the iron accumulation in the neuron that becomes so destructive to the resilience of the neurons's ability to make energy and respond to the environment and and the
(1:02:24) uh lead author Dr. mayor said iron's not the problem. I'm like, okay. She said it's the accumulation of the iron. And what she reveals is that the iron >> that's copper. >> Iron can't get out. But what's the one word that's not in that paper? It's a 50-page article. >> Mhm. >> Not one word about copper. >> Wow.
(1:02:44) >> Not one word. >> Yeah. So again, iron's not the problem. No, >> it is the copper. >> It's the lack of copper that doesn't lack of copper. the lack of copper that doesn't let the iron to recycle properly. >> Yeah. Yeah. I And I out of everything we said, I think that is the takeaway, right, for people, you know, because you can get two groups like how important iron is. The world is iron deficient.
(1:03:07) D Well, there's truth to that. Iron, but then there's the other group, iron is toxic, iron is oxidative, d's people having heart attack, strokes if you're it's like, okay, so how could they, you know, both be wrong or right? Well, copper is what they're not talking about. If I had a magic wand and I were sitting with Secretary Kennedy right now, there's only one thing I would ask him to do.
(1:03:29) >> Mandate that going forward, no copper research cannot ignore iron and no iron research cannot ignore copper. >> And then suddenly you have the union of the metals so that people understand the interplay and interdependence that they have. >> And that would change science. >> That puts a cap on it.
(1:03:50) people can understand that. Okay, we did start this conversation about iron and zinc, right? Zinc is not being depleted by glyphosate. Zinc is we're getting plenty of zinc, right? But the world went crazy with zinc through CO, right? >> And zinc, we could, you know, there's benefits to zinc, too. So, you know, we're not throwing zinc completely under the bus.
(1:04:13) But right now in the space it's like there's this thing of you can't do copper without zinc or if you take them together they neutralize each other. Where's the truth here? I because I don't even know. >> No, it's again we're back to Carl Feifer. Thank you Dr. Feifer. Uh I always worry when people get the PhD before they get their MD.
(1:04:32) He be he was a pharmacist before he was a doctor. Like okay. Um and he wrote a very important book um mental and elemental nutrients. It's a monster of a book. >> Um but but he didn't really understand copper and iron and I think he only confused it by introducing zinc. So when you study the literature from the 1920s to the 1950s, there's an obsession with copper and iron.
(1:05:04) Those are the metals they were studying very intently. You know, um Otto Warberg, he was obsessed with copper and iron. He only talked about iron, but he knew about copper. But the thing is, um why were they so concerned about copper and iron? Because they were really preoccupied with making energy. They wanted to understand the mechanism at a cellular level about how energy is made.
(1:05:27) I I think there are certain um head fakes that are introduced and I think uh Feifer introduced one of them and he he pointed out the fact that there's very similar relationships between copper and iron. But what people don't realize is that zinc blocks copper uptake in the body. >> Okay.
(1:05:49) And zinc also is very >> So basically zinc could make worse an already huge deficiency >> absolutely >> in the populace. >> Absolutely. And and zinc is also very disruptive to iron metabolism. >> Very very important. And >> so it could technically then make your iron levels in tissue go up. >> Yes. Exactly.
(1:06:12) And so the the you start to drop in zinc into the equation and not suddenly you're affecting both the metals copper and iron. And what people may not know is that not only does zinc block the copper uptake, zinc has known properties to stop cytochrome c oxidase at complex 4. That's not a good >> affect energy as well. >> Affects energy.
(1:06:35) But it also goes on in in 2010 a a very famous team of Australian uh mineral researchers discovered that zinc was blocking the ferro oxidase enzyme function in our brain. >> The very stuff that they're talking about in this article they knew that zinc was very disruptive in that >> and again what happened in 2020 everyone was told oh use the zinc to stop the replication of the virus.
(1:07:01) Right? We knew that became part of our thought process. >> There was only one article published in 2020 that I could find that talked about how copper kills all pathogens, bacteria, fungus, virus, and parasites. >> So, it works kind of like silver. >> Yeah. >> But we're we're going to get into some real dicey discussion now because silver blocks copper metabolism.
(1:07:27) And so what happened in in 2020, everyone bought the Kool-Aid. Oh, I need zinc. They didn't realize the downstream effect it was going to have on copper metabolism and subsequently iron metabolism. And and what I'm trying to piece together now is why is the serum feritin running so low consistently? Something happened in the last few years.
(1:07:53) And there's no one's writing about it. There's nothing in the literature, but but somehow the um the level and again I I I know what you're going to say, but Kel says it's supposed to be zero, but everyone doesn't believe Kell. So, when we get down into this 20 to 50 range, people get freaked out or below below 20 is really where the where the uh train comes off the track.
(1:08:14) And the thing is >> feritin >> a feritin. But something happened, I think, with the zinc to cause that. And what what I've just >> So you're saying when people are overloading on zinc, their feritin's dropping? >> Yes. And I and I just found research to that effect a couple days ago. I haven't really delved into it in a deep way, but zinc has an effect on um serum feritin and it causes it to go low.
(1:08:40) And oh my gosh, if that's in fact the mechanism, we got a serious problem. So, it's kicking it out and then it's ending up in other tissue. Um I'm we don't know. >> All All I know is this one study that I found from 2011 is that they uh were working with um women who were menrating and they gave them a lot of zinc and they found that their feritin dropped.
(1:09:07) >> Some people watching this would be like, well, that's good because again, we've been taught. You already said, hey, if it's above 150, be careful. If it starts to get up above, you know, 300, 400,000, you better be really concerned. >> You should be very concerned. The the the nuance is um I think we have to really accept the fact that feritin is this immune marker.
(1:09:33) It's not an iron storage marker. And we've got to really rely on the fact that hemoglobin is a much more prevalent consistent indicator [clears throat] of of iron status. And we really need to know what copper >> what what's the serum level of copper? What's the um serum level of ceruopplasmine? Again, if I had a magic wand, I would I would ask for one test to be allowed. The ferrooxidase assay.
(1:10:01) It's barred by the FDA. We're not allowed to know the actual intelligence of the ferro oxidase enzyme function and that would change everything >> right but we can't so you is copper levels in serum accurate can we measure that and how I mean can we even order such a test >> you absolutely can uh I developed a blood test called the full monty iron panel got to have some fun with it and there's 12 markers in it and two of them one is copper it's measured >> where can people get that test >> of request a test.com. ultalabs.com
(1:10:37) >> Okay. requestatest.com >> or ulta >> labs altabs.com. Okay. >> And these are these are um patient directed ordering uh platforms. >> Great. >> And the the the nuance is >> we have a lot of people order that. >> I hope they'd be great. um the the the nuance to it is the practitioners that they might be working with aren't familiar with these blood results and they're not really esoteric.
(1:11:04) >> Yeah. And and by the way, that's the problem is that's why practitioners don't want to run certain tests, right? >> Because they don't know how to interpret them and they don't want to deal with that. So they >> and and it's not complicated. There's a whole I've trained a thousand people. They're called RCP consultants, root cause protocol consultants.
(1:11:22) People can go into our website rootcausprotocol.com, find these people, and they'll know how to interpret the the results. But the what what's important is we're looking at not just iron status, we're looking at zinc, we're looking at copper, we're looking at cerupplasma, we're looking at vitamin A, we're looking at vitamin D.
(1:11:40) And there's a relationship between those two that needs to be showing up in the blood. >> Wow. >> And and we live in a D only society. And that's not good. >> Yeah. We have to talk about the deception around D as well. Um >> so okay and we haven't even spoken about magnesium yet. >> I know. >> Okay. >> Uh okay.
(1:12:01) So really important topics though, right? And you already told everyone don't take ascorbic acid, right? So they're going to say is there a better form of vitamin C? We mentioned a food form. >> Um what about these liposome forms? Do you have a form that you like? Uh >> yeah. No, liposomaal is just ascorbic acid on Yeah. on fat.
(1:12:20) >> Yeah. And to your point though, you don't want ascorbic acid. So there are supplemental um natural vitamin C's from food, right? Yeah. So >> from food. Formula IQ makes one. Inate Response makes one. There there's a there's a number of different manufacturers that make a whole food vitamin C complex. >> So you learned that today.
(1:12:41) No more ascorbic acid. Okay. magnesium because most women have now heard uh you know it's going to impact their hormones. We know it impacts uh calcium absorption. It's not so much a calcium deficiency as is magnesium, right? >> And you know so magnesium like you know let's bring it into a nutshell. >> Okay. So I cut my teeth on magnesium.
(1:13:04) >> Yeah. You're like the that you're known as the magnesium guy and we didn't even get to it until an hour into the show. >> I know right. [laughter] Well, the the thing is I I was I was fascinated by I was it was actually a book by Carolyn Dean, the magnesium miracle. And I you know I spent 32 years working in hospitals as a executive and a consultant.
(1:13:23) It's like why is everyone so sick? And and her argument was everyone's magnesium deficient. And I bought that for a number of years. Like it makes so much sense. But then you start to pick at it and I started to ask the question why is magnesium low? and and it took me about five years to piece it all together, but basically here's the here's the uh the process.
(1:13:44) When you have lack of copper, iron will rise in the liver. Very very well documented going all the way back to 1928. Iron in the liver is not your friend. It's going to create a lot of oxidative stress. And who takes it on the chin with oxidative stress? Magnesium. It's the first first mineral to go. Magnesium and B vitamins are the first nutrients out under >> So we're back to copper being the absolute the chef in the kitchen, the commander.
(1:14:13) >> No, I again I I look at the minerals as a pyramid. >> Mhm. >> Copper's at the very top. >> Yeah, >> it absolutely is at the top when you think about its relationship with all the other minerals, but especially iron and magnesium and oxygen. And so >> the the key and and I created this phrase, the magnesium burn rate.
(1:14:34) How much stress do you have? How fast are you losing your how fast are you losing the magnesium? But I thought, well, we can replace it. And that's what I did for a number of years. Let's just take a lot of magnesium. But I thought, wait a minute, why don't we stop losing it? How how come we keep losing it? And that's what really led to the the whole copper iron dynamic.
(1:14:53) >> So how much um do you recommend people take magnesium? Oh, absolutely. How much? >> Yeah, it's 5 mg per pound body weight or 10 milligrams per kilo >> depending on how you >> So five in this country 5 milligrams per pound, >> right? >> Give you and what form of magnesium? >> Um, and it's multiple forms.
(1:15:15) I mean, we've got obviously it's in food. Anything [clears throat] that's green is going to have magnesium in it. um transermal amazing magnesium chloride oil or uh um magnesium sulfate Epsom salt wonderful forms for for recovery um but I think the ones that you're referring to are um the chelated forms >> yeah there's the glycinate the um >> malate malate glucanate gly >> gluconate glycinate citrate yeah >> I I encourage people to stay away from the citrate makes a lot lot of people upset.
(1:15:50) >> It's a good pooper. >> It is a good pooper, but it's not restoring the magnesium in the way that it needs to be restored. >> Um, >> hydroxide oxide are poopers, too. So, >> Exactly. But, but you're not getting the the amount. >> No. Yeah. Well, the point is is the reason it's a pooper is because it's not absorbed.
(1:16:09) It pulls water into the colon and goes. So, so Magox 400 is very popular, right? Do you know how much magnesium you're actually getting with Magox 400? Yeah. It's >> 16 milligrams. >> Yeah. I was just going to say probably not much. >> It's not much at all. And so, uh, I think particularly as people are dealing with stress, they got to know their, um, formula, know their weight, multiply times five.
(1:16:32) But the the the way you measure it is you want your bowel movement to be formed and soft. And when it starts to get too runny, dial back on your magnesium. >> There you go. But the but the form that I've used the most has probably been the magnesium malate. >> Okay. >> And definitely like if you have muscle cramps, that's the one that it feels like.
(1:16:54) So that tells me that it's getting in. >> Exactly. Yeah. Right. And and usually where magnesium will show stress the fastest, it's going to be in the feet, in the hands, and the twitch of the eye. >> If you've got th any one of those three, you've got a serious magnesium deficiency and you need to bulk up. But again, magnesium without copper, >> no it does.
(1:17:17) I mean, a lot of people do it and and I and I was there for a number of years. What I'm what I'm trying to do with the the root cause protocol is get people to realize that there is this game plan >> that there's things you got to stop taking Yeah. >> We've talked about >> ascorbic acid. >> Yeah. Stop taking iron, stop taking calcium, stop taking vitamin D only.
(1:17:36) >> Okay. Yeah. What? Let's go there next. And then getting people to focus on the the uh the starts, people find that they really start to to perk up very quickly. >> Okay. So, yeah, they they do. So, okay. Um let's talk about the vitamin D, right? I mean, I'm a huge fan of vitamin D from the sun. >> Um you know, I mean, I think that there could be some reasonable uh times to take it, but >> we did talk about vitamin A.
(1:18:06) Um, and the sun plays a critical role with vitamin A because it it separates vitamin A, makes it usable in the body. So, the sun has a a lot of impacts on all the fat solubles. >> I'm a big fan like I because I really understand the value of the fat solubles. I absolutely love egg yolks. >> Oh, sure.
(1:18:27) So, you know, it's like I mean I there's like I think the these food sources are absolutely incredible for the fats soluble vitamins. But okay, so that said, let's look at this D the deception around D. >> Um again in nature everything's in pairs. Calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, >> you know, uh copper and iron. It's not copper and zinc, it's copper and iron.
(1:18:50) >> Copper and iron. Um but A and D is a very powerful relationship. >> Um what's fascinating again go into the literature in the 19s there was an obsession with retinol Nobel prizes being given out for the research that was being done. What were they doing with the vitamin D fraction of those studies? Throwing it in the garbage >> wasn't even on their radar screen.
(1:19:16) >> It's funny how they isolate things like that, right? >> Yeah. And then suddenly in the 70s >> D >> D took off. And um and it wasn't just D and A, it was just D. >> And by the way, the the danger is always this, and I've done a lot of videos warning people about this. If you just load up on D, you create a functional deficiency of A.
(1:19:36) If you load up on A, you create a functional deficiency of D. And by the way, that's where I think the medical community still sits. Well, A can cause, you know, lead to, you know, cancer problems. D can cause hip fractures and it's the opposite. >> It absolutely is. And the and the thing is within the root cause protocol we worship at the altar of bioavailable copper >> in its form cerulopplasmine to express the ferrooxidase enzyme to regulate the iron and the oxygen.
(1:20:08) Very that's that's the whole nutshell of of the program. And so retinol is of paramount importance in that program. If you don't have access to u viable sources of retinol, preformed vitamin A, not precursor but preformed, you're not going to be able to fire up the enzymes. You're not going to be able to to run the metabolism of the body.
(1:20:31) You're not going to be able to make the energy. >> But the thing is what really became the obsession was the immune system. And everyone keyed off of vitamin D's ability to uh interact with the immune system. And that it's undeniable. >> But there's a difference between how vitamin D interacts with the immune system versus vitamin A.
(1:20:52) >> Vitamin D suppresses the immune system. >> Okay, under certain conditions that's probably a good thing. But what does vitamin A do? It downregulates. Well, what's the difference between suppression and downregulation? It's huge. If someone's trying to fall asleep, suppression is putting a pillow over their head.
(1:21:12) Downregulation is singing a lullabi. Very different actions there. And so I think the world got my phrase is misled and misfed with a lot of dictims. One of them being you must take a lot of vitamin D. But um I grew up in Baltimore as I mentioned. My nickname is Baltimore. I I wor >> [laughter] >> I worship at the altar of Hopkins.
(1:21:39) They're not they're not perfect, but there's some pretty smart people at that institution. And back in 2014, Muhammad Amr did a all cause mortality study. This is pre pre uh COVID. I I get that. But but it was a seinal study that there was no clinical benefit to having storage D above 21. Wow. That's a mind-blowing conclusion.
(1:22:05) That flies in the face of all the functional Yeah. programs, right? >> Yeah. They're saying, you know, 60 and above. >> 60 and above. Absolutely. [clears throat] The part that's missing, this is this is really important for the for the listeners out there. When [clears throat] was the last time you had your active D measured? And there's a relationship between active D and storage D.
(1:22:28) And I I've one of my students uh who he's a dentist practicing in Manhattan said, "I've got this really um high-profile functional doctor who wants to talk to you. Would you be willing to I said, "Sure." Guy gets on the phone and I [snorts and clears throat] I won't mention his name, but he's a big name. And he said, "Um, what I I'm really happy with your work.
(1:22:50) I'm really think you've brought some important concepts to light." He said, 'But I completely disagree with you about vitamin D.' I said, 'Th that's fine.' I said, I'm just curious, what have you found with the active D measurements that you've done? He said, the what? I said, well, you're measuring active and storage.
(1:23:07) He said, no, I've never done that. >> And tell people what they are. >> So, the storage is called 25 hydroxy vitamin D. >> The active is called 125 >> 125. Yeah. And and again, what is vitamin D? It's not a vitamin. It's a hormone. And hormones get stored. >> Vitamin A is a pro hormone, too. >> Right. Exactly.
(1:23:33) And so, um, hormone D, just like all the other hormones, has a location and a job. Its primary location is in the colon or in the intestine. I'm not sure exactly where where in the intestine, but it's in the intestine to absorb more calcium at the expense of magnesium. And so, you start to um really bulk up on on vitamin D supplements, you're going to alter the absorption of of calcium and magnesium.
(1:24:00) And there's a very famous study done by um John um Ferris at Yale Medical School. Oh, it's probably pretty good school, right? 1962, he the headlines of the of the article, vitamin D supplements cause renal potassium wasting. Well, that that's a very serious declaration. And when I started this work, u I did a lot of hair tissue mineral analysis.
(1:24:33) And what did I see? Potassium was always tanked 100% of the time. Potassium is always at just one or below one, >> which is that's not a good thing. >> When potassium is low in the cell, >> do you know what is allowed in? >> Sodium. Potassium and sodium. I don't know. >> No. Iron. >> Oh. >> When potassium starts to leave the cell, iron has free access.
(1:24:58) >> Wow. >> And so then suddenly we've got a serious problem with iron. >> And so, >> oh gosh. >> Then there's another study that was done. Um, so that was 62. I think it was an 89 study done and what the what the scientists realized was that the impact on the kidney was allowing more iron into the tissue >> and it was tanking energy production.
(1:25:21) And I and again I think I have a whole um uh program. It's it's an hour and a half. It's a master class that people can can access. It's behind a payw wall, but it's research that they don't know about about the the downside, the dark side, the deception of storage D only uh supplements.
(1:25:45) And people need to realize that everything in nature is in balance. >> Yeah. So, um people in with dark skin living in northern climates, um taking vitamin D really helps them. But, you know, because they're up there, they can't get sun. Um, you and I would make the argument that the best way to balance your D is get sun. >> Well, get sun or get it in your diet.
(1:26:10) >> Yeah, of course. Uh, you know, there's there's dietary. >> Our Scandinavian ancestors, they knew what to eat >> and they and they were [clears throat] getting it through the diet. And you made reference, a very important reference that I'm not sure people picked up >> was the relationship of sunlight to A and D and and all and all the the fat solubles.
(1:26:31) But the but the mechanism is really important. It's called folate. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> You need folic acid to actually, you know, utilize the retinol and that whole pathway from the sun. >> Exactly. And you need the folate to to make the vitamin D. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, when you're in sunlight, minute you go out into sunlight, you are going to start to synthesize D. That's great.
(1:26:52) >> Mhm. >> But what are you going what else are you going to do? You're going to begin to break down the vitamin A. Both mechanisms key off of folate. Well, in one of my seinal conversations with Leslie Cle again, he's a cardiologist >> who's a worldrenowned copper expert in 1973 when a lot of excitement was taking place in 1973 around statins.
(1:27:19) Um he he did a study and discovered that copper deficiency causes cholesterol to rise. That's a that's a pretty empowerful >> finding. And for that finding to become science, only one other lab only one other lab needed to replicate those findings. Since 1973, over 30 labs have confirmed Dr. Cle's findings.
(1:27:42) The copper deficiency causes cholesterol to rise. Why? Very important. >> Cholesterol [clears throat] sulfate. >> Well, cholesterol takes 11 molecules of oxygen to make one molecule of cholesterol. So cholesterol is an oxygen sink. Cholesterol is the wisdom of the body knowing it doesn't have enough copper.
(1:28:04) So it's creating cholesterol to protect the oxygen that it's going to need to make what? Hormones and other chemicals, make energy downstream. >> And as soon as the body gets the copper back, it can begin to release that >> and allow the body to to get back to homeostasis. >> So the thing is in a conversation with Dr.
(1:28:28) Cle uh this goes back 2011 I think was the very first conversation I had with him and I had I again was responding to one of his articles. I said you know Dr. Cle I have this theory said I think that um all the B vitamins are copper dependent and they all regulate iron and he he's a real gentleman. He said well Mley I can't speak for all of the B vitamins.
(1:28:51) He said it's a very interesting theory. He said, "You've you've definitely got my interest." He said, "But what I can tell you for a fact is that folate >> is copper dependent." >> Yeah. >> B9 and folic acid is not folate. People need to know that that the folic acid that they get in their supplement does not have the >> Yeah.
(1:29:13) >> And so again, we're back to the pyramid. Copper's at the top running the the Sunshine Show. And in fact, uh, I've got a colleague in Australia who's a 40-year veteran of chiropractic >> and a 40-year veteran of naturop naturopathy, but he's been studying copper and iron as an alchemist for 30 years.
(1:29:36) He said, well, it would it would be good for you to know that copper has a magnetic attraction to sunlight. I said, that makes sense. He said, it also has a magnetic attraction to ammonia. I went, "You've got to be kidding me." He said, 'N no. He said, he said, 'The first of the four enzymes in the liver to break down ammonia, the first is copper dependent.
(1:29:59) So what does that mean? Copper is the alpha and omega. It's the beginning and end of life. And so it's it's just getting people to realize that this enormous body of knowledge, it exists. M >> there are so many articles out there about the the mystique of of copper metabolism, >> but they're just not readily accessible >> and it's only going to get worse with AI.
(1:30:25) >> I know >> because what is it? >> Because AI just picks up what's already there. >> Picks up what's already there. It's always incomplete. That's what AI stands for. >> Exactly. I like that. >> Always iron. >> Yeah. >> They'll always lead with iron. >> Yeah. >> And and I I did a >> Yeah.
(1:30:42) So many things are getting worse because of AI because it takes a dominant already false theory and just makes it more and everyone believes AI. >> That's the scary part. >> Yeah. >> And they don't realize how manipulated it is. So I was asking recent probably about four or five months ago asking about this particular mechanism. I said what are the 10 reasons for this mechanism taking place? And what came back were were 10 very legitimate responses, but six of them I knew had a relationship with copper.
(1:31:14) And so I was working with a buddy of mine who's really adept at working with AI. I said, "Okay, what about copper?" And this is a response from AI. This was like six months ago. He says, "Oh, you know about copper?" >> Well, let me tell you what I know about copper. And he completely changed the response when copper was introduced into the question.
(1:31:34) >> Yeah. Well, and you would have to introduce it into like, you know, other names that understand copper to get AI to go there and pull >> Well, what we've developed within the root cause protocol, we've developed the RCP constitution. It's about a six-page document that we feed into AI and say, take this into account before you answer our question.
(1:31:58) Yeah, it's >> totally changes the responses that are coming back. >> Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. Yeah. And your book, you know, outlines the root cause protocol. I mean, everything we're talking about here is there, you know, what not to take, um, what to take, you know, the balance of it. So, you know, right now, I mean, we've highlighted copper a lot. There is some benefit.
(1:32:18) I mean, people talking about the benefits of copper because they [clears throat] sell all copper water jugs now. Um, water bottles I should say and the jugs to get copper. Can you get is that a good way to get copper? >> Well, again I think people are taking it out of context. Where where was that really popular? India was really really the the civilization that perfected that.
(1:32:42) It's more for sanitation than for supplementation >> because bacteria doesn't grow in there. >> It can't grow in there. So you're going to get microscopic levels of copper. You're not going to get enough. >> Not enough. still good for water because >> copper bracelets, people wear them all the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. What are you gonna absorb? So, okay, great.
(1:32:58) It it's it keeps your water clean. >> And and the thing is what what's really popular now are copper socks, copper bandages. >> Yeah. Copper Yeah, you're right. I copper's all over the place. Yeah. >> Where you need your copper is inside your body. >> Yeah. So, you need to be eating it, supplementing it, right? Absolutely. And your to your point um nuts, seeds, um >> or >> organ meats, shellfish, >> organ meats, shellfish, shellfish. Yeah.
(1:33:22) >> Broad broad leafy greens, um collard greens, mustard greens. They're very rich sources of copper. The the part that that people may not know about um everyone's heard of photosynthesis, right? >> Well, the the mechanism that runs photosynthesis is three enzymes. There's photosystem two and photosystem one.
(1:33:43) and they they involve manganese and and magnesium. But there's something in the middle called plastocyanin. >> Plastocyanin is a copper dependent enzyme that moves the electrons from two to one. And what's really important about ceruo plasmine the protein is it has six plastocyanin centers in it. >> And so this whole mechanism of light, everyone's really obsessed with light now.
(1:34:10) >> Yeah. It's all about copper. >> Yeah, that's amazing. >> I would I would argue that that copper that ceruopplasmine inside our body creates a prism. It creates a full spectrum of light. Now, I don't have clinical proof. I don't have scientific proof, but each of those plastocyan centers has a different frequency.
(1:34:30) Well, every the light spectrum is a different frequency of light to get from ultraviolet to to red. >> And so, it's like I think there's more to the story. And I think copper is going to be >> You're saying, "Hey, copper's more important than all your lights." >> I know, right? >> But but the beauty of the red lights is they're really important and and I'm sure you've had patients that have gotten a lot of benefit from those red lights.
(1:34:54) >> They are an electronic crutch for a copper deficient body. And so the >> Well, because it it does the copper's effect in the mitochondria. >> Complex 4 um is is huge. And the light can help that. >> And and what the red light does is it blocks nitric oxide from stopping the cycle. >> Yeah. >> That's the key.
(1:35:17) That's why red light is so useful. But ideally, we should be able to generate the light within. If you can't do that, do it without. >> Yeah. >> And let it be an external source while you're rebuilding your body. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So important. >> Wow. Okay. I mean, just blew us away. I, you know, I again, I knew this would be action-packed.
(1:35:38) I I knew it would be a lot of incredible biochemistry, but all of it is in cure your fatigue where we started and so many people have the lack of energy because you know right there the CU the copper >> and the the one thing I would just just to emphasize one point real quickly I [clears throat] there are a lot of people out there a third of the earth's population is told that they are anemic it's a very serious this >> situation.
(1:36:08) >> What we have to understand is that iron's the number one element on the planet. >> 36% of the earth's composition is iron. >> Okay? >> Precoid I would have argued that humans were probably the most evolved species on the planet. >> Okay. >> Now I'm not so sure. >> But but to believe in anemia means that the most evolved species on the planet can't metabolize the number one element on the planet.
(1:36:34) What I really want to >> got to be something else involved. >> Might be something else involved. But what I really want to emphasize is I want people to realize as we alluded to earlier, there is a difference between low iron on the blood test and high iron in the tissue. >> If if the blood test comes back low as and it comes back low a third of the time.
(1:36:55) Now >> people need to ask one question. Why is it low? >> And could copper be part of the problem? >> Yeah. or lack of copper be part of and get people to challenge this idea that the the phrase that's used. It's iron deficiency anemia. That's the popular phrase that's used by the World Health Organization and everybody else.
(1:37:16) But it [clears throat] but technically there's two forms of anemia. >> There is absolute iron deficiency. You do not have iron in your body for whatever reason. You've been in a car accident, you've been shot, whatever. there's been a massive blood loss. That does happen, but it's very rare. But absolute iron deficiency is a very small percentage.
(1:37:41) The the bigger percentage is functional iron deficiency. Mhm. >> The recycling system is not working because the person's got an infection, inflammation, under stress, don't have copper in their body and that's creating the illusion of anemia when in fact it's a functional breakdown in their recycling system. And how does that um people hear the term megaloblastic anemia, they're looking at B12 as being the problem, hemoglob it affects your hemoglobin, etc.
(1:38:13) Where does that all fit in? >> Again, when you B9 and B12 are very important for the production of the the red blood cell. >> Well, B9, we've already figured out has a relationship with copper. >> The symptoms of B12 deficiency and the symptoms of copper deficiency are virtually the same. >> Mhm.
(1:38:35) In fact, in 1934, they gave a Nobel Prize to three physicians who cured anemia and pernicious anemia, B12 anemia, using the same product. >> Do you know what? Do you know what it was? >> Beef liver. They gave a Nobel Prize in 1934 to three uh one physician from Hopkins, two from Harvard for using beef liver which is teameming with nutrients but it's the richest source of copper in our body.
(1:39:04) >> And pernicious anemia is um another topic right involving the B vitamins. Absolutely. And people get that diagnosis. >> Yeah. And the and the other side of it is people need to know that when you start talking about B12 you're going to get into methylation. Mhm. >> Well, the the head of the methylation process is an enzyme called methionine synthes.
(1:39:24) >> Doesn't work without copper. >> It's got to have a copper battery. >> It even is showing its hand in methylation. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And you can't adapt to stress without normal methylation. Copper's at the top of that, too. >> Well, and here here's just to take one quick deep dive and then we can wrap it up.
(1:39:45) Um you you made reference to um the copper peptides. >> Yeah. >> Well, what's really popular now, as you know, are peptides in general, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Everyone's got to have my [clears throat] peptides, right? >> Have Have you wondered why peptides are so important now? >> Well, I I think that it's because people are trying to biohack around this hormone problem, >> right? >> Yeah.
(1:40:10) So, [clears throat] it turns out there's 4,700 signaling peptides in the human body. That's a lot. >> And according to the research, over half of them get activated with one enzyme. It's called the PAM enzyme. And PAM stands for peptidal glycine alphaating mono oxygenase. >> Never remember that. >> 36 letters long. I get a dollar every time I say it.
(1:40:40) And [clears throat] what people need to understand is that um glyphosate is creating copper deficiency which is affecting the PAM enzyme which requires >> to the PAM enzyme that controls you said half of those peptides. >> Yep. Things like oxytocin, vasopressin, insulin. You've heard of insulin, right? >> Oxytocin. Yeah. uh GLP1 GLP-1 doesn't get activated without the PAM enzyme >> and the PAM enzyme is copper dependent >> copper dependent >> two atoms and copper the reason why I wanted to bring it up real quickly is I think um the the big rage in modern
(1:41:22) medicine hormones peptides and genes >> right yeah >> doesn't get any bigger than those >> yeah it's true [clears throat] >> so turns out you can't transcribe genes without copper >> and [snorts] if there's a copper deficiency >> see I always say the battle is always spiritual >> so and I also have my 180°ree principle which means in health especially take a 180 degrees opposite of what the majority is saying the media everyone and somehow the truth lies on the other side >> so I think we could have realized oh copper's toxic that's what we're being
(1:42:04) told from everybody. >> Flip it around. >> Flip it around. 180 degrees opposite. Oh, they're telling us copper is toxic and bad for us. So, could it be that it's actually the most important? >> Bingo. >> And I would say yes. >> So, let's stay with this Pam enzyme for just a second. A husband and wife team, Betty Iper and Richard Mains, studied the Pam enzyme at Hopkins for 20 years. That's a long time.
(1:42:30) Then they went north to to uh University of Connecticut Medical Center, Yukon Medical Center. Get it? Yukon. They studied for another 25 years. And in in 2010 and 2014, they had two very talented graduate students. Uh one uh just a straightup biochemist, the other was an MD with a PhD. But they did very similar studies.
(1:42:57) >> [clears throat] >> What they wanted to do was create what's called haplo insufficiency in the PAM enzyme. So it's not firing right. So they were able to manipulate the genes to create that and the enzyme expression was significantly reduced and then with another group of of mice they reduced the copper intake in their diet and they created the exact same level of enzyme expression.
(1:43:26) So low copper diet, hloins sufficiency, >> right? And then they but in both studies they increased the iron excuse me they increased the copper in the diet and what happened >> in both groups both the copper deficient group and the haplo insufficient group they both restored enzyme expression back to normal. So my challenge is that there are many many different gene issues that people are freaking out about.
(1:43:56) >> I would argue that I bet many of them are lack of our nutrition, not the broken genes. >> Well, >> to get people out of that thought that they're broken. >> Yeah. Because again, we can turn on and off genes. Absolutely. >> For good and for bad. >> Right. >> And >> and they respond to stress. >> Absolutely.
(1:44:14) And they respond to stress, physical, chemical, or emotional. >> Exactly. And as soon as stress goes up, rising, iron's coming in. Yeah. >> What do you think iron's doing inside the nucleus? >> You know, it's this whole iron thing. I, you know, I I have said before I even understood this that it's not so simple, right? It's like it's not that everyone has all of this iron issue because they're taking it, etc.
(1:44:40) , etc., and they have to just bloodlet it out because there's something wrong with human. Uh it's like no it it and you know the the answer to that was well in the past you know humans would lose more blood. I'm like okay that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard because it's not it's about this it's about the copper issue that's making the iron issue >> you know that much more of a problem.
(1:45:03) >> Uh it it's absolutely at the center of >> Yeah. It's at the center uh you know and it's so it's less about the iron and more about the copper. And what's important for people to really um f focus in on is that our our body has an elegance to it >> and there is a blueprint to running the the human metabolism.
(1:45:24) That blueprint runs on energy. If you don't have energy, you you know that far better than I do. >> Absolutely. >> The whole thing falls apart. But the key is making the energy the primary focus and getting people to realize that once that spark comes back, the body goes, "Wait a minute, I know what to do now." It's absolutely amazing.
(1:45:44) >> You know, I don't want to complicate the issue. I I we've had so much amazing information, but you know, a lot of my study has been on how certain heavy metals >> um cause problems in the body. One of the things that I had found is how mercury and and there's others uh even lead interferes with copper. >> Yes, indeed.
(1:46:03) >> So high heavy metals can displace copper and of course that's at the top of the the chain, >> right? So it's like that's amazing. And back when I was like figuring out my mercury issues, I realized it was affecting copper, you know, and I I was one of the things I realized is like, man, no wonder so many of my hormones are disregulated.
(1:46:26) It's like, oh, this is complicated. >> No, but it's all connected though. It that's the beauty of it. Absolutely. Yeah. So, high heavy metal issues. Yeah. Good luck. You're going to have trouble, you know, with copper and and other minerals, right? Because of the displation and um >> so many other pathways I don't want to get into, but >> Exactly.
(1:46:43) >> Yeah. Uh, look, I cure your [clears throat] fatigue. Where do where do people find it? >> Um, they can go online, Amazon, a bunch of online player players, but Barnes & Noble carries it in phys physical edition. >> And, uh, what about you? Do you have uh what where's your home sites? >> Um, well, the rootcausprotocol.com.
(1:47:01) Okay. >> That's probably the primary site. We're we're on all the social media Yeah. sites. >> Awesome. >> Um, and what I typically uh let people know is that they're always welcome to reach out to me personally. M >> I give out my email address morley robbins@gmail.com and my phone number >> 8479228061 and I I've learned so much from those conversations.
(1:47:24) >> That's amazing. I I love when people do that. That's great. >> Yeah. >> Uh morally, what a pleasure. Uh it's an honor. couldn't wait for this conversation and um I it could just keep going on because I I I would probably bore people to tears, you know, because I would just take it down these little nugget holes, but I feel like you're a guy who has so many little nuggets.
(1:47:46) So, [laughter] >> I just I think there's a there's a divine side to this. >> Yeah. >> And I'm just kind of um I'm I've been guided. There's no question I've been >> guided. I There's there's no question about it. Yeah. There is no question about it. All right. Well, listen, share this show because you know how many people you know that have a copper deficiency? Probably everybody.
(1:48:08) So, and it could be as simple as that with all of the expensive uh peptides and hormones they're imagine if it could just be copper. Uh yeah, cure your fatigue. Go get the book for sure. Root Cause Protocol. Go to the website. Check it out. Love the conversation. Share it. Thank you again for being here. >> And [laughter] and thank you again for the opportunity. Awesome.