Author Name:Mukul Deora
Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@mukul_deora
Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLRZVu8hjG4
ఈ వీడియో/ట్రాన్స్క్రిప్ట్లో వచ్చిన ప్రధాన అంశాలను తెలుగులో సింపుల్గా ఇలా చెప్పొచ్చు:
### ముఖ్యమైన takeaways
- భారత్లో విడాకులు ఇంకా తక్కువగానే ఉన్నా, పట్టణాలు మరియు మెట్రో నగరాల్లో వేగంగా పెరుగుతున్నాయి.
- కుటుంబ కోర్టుల్లో కేసుల భారి పెరిగింది; ముంబైలో ఇప్పుడు రోజుకు వందల సంఖ్యలో కుటుంబ కేసులు వినిపిస్తున్నాయని చెప్పారు.
- పరస్పర సమ్మతితో విడాకులు $$mutual consent divorce$$ తేలికగా పూర్తయ్యే అవకాశం ఉంది, కానీ contested divorce చాలా సంవత్సరాలు పడుతుంది.
- భారతీయ చట్టంలో “మేము compatible కాదు” లేదా “marriage breakdown అయింది” అనే కారణం ఒక్కటే సరిపోదు.
- విడాకుల కోసం సాధారణంగా mental cruelty, physical cruelty, adultery, desertion, unsoundness of mind వంటి చట్టపరమైన grounds నిరూపించాలి.
- ఒక contested matter లో lower court లోనే $$5$$ నుంచి $$7$$ సంవత్సరాలు, తర్వాత High Court లో మరో కొన్ని సంవత్సరాలు పట్టే అవకాశం ఉందని చెప్పారు.
- కొంతమంది విడిగా ఎన్నో సంవత్సరాలు జీవిస్తున్నా, maintenance ఇస్తూనే చట్టపరంగా ఇంకా పెళ్లైన వారిగానే ఉండిపోతున్నారు.
### మహిళలు, చట్టం, misuse
- ముందుతో పోలిస్తే ఇప్పుడు మహిళలే ఎక్కువగా విడాకుల ప్రక్రియను ప్రారంభిస్తున్నారని ఆమె అనుభవం చెబుతోంది.
- దీనికి ప్రధాన కారణాలు: ఆర్థిక స్వాతంత్ర్యం, చట్టాలపై అవగాహన, జీవితంపై స్వతంత్ర నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకోవాలనే దృక్పథం.
- మహిళల రక్షణ కోసం వచ్చిన కొన్ని చట్టాలు కొన్ని సందర్భాల్లో misuse అవుతున్నాయని కూడా ఆమె పేర్కొన్నారు.
- maintenance కేసుల్లో భార్యాభర్తలిద్దరూ తమ పరిస్థితిని అతిశయోక్తిగా చెప్పే సందర్భాలు తరచూ కనిపిస్తాయని ఆమె అభిప్రాయం.
### పెళ్లిళ్లు ఎందుకు విఫలమవుతాయి
- infidelity $$మోసం/బయటి సంబంధాలు$$ చాలా సాధారణ కారణంగా ప్రస్తావించారు.
- physical adultery మాత్రమే కాదు, emotional infidelity కూడా పెళ్లిని బలంగా దెబ్బతీయగలదని చెప్పారు.
- సోషల్ సర్కిల్స్, workplace, school-parent groups వంటి దగ్గర సంబంధాలు extra-marital bonding కి దారితీయొచ్చని ఉదాహరణలు ఇచ్చారు.
- చాలా పెళ్లిళ్లు ఒక్క పెద్ద కారణంతో కాకుండా చిన్న చిన్న అసంతృప్తులు పేరుకుపోవడం వల్ల కూలిపోతాయని చెప్పారు.
- ముఖ్యంగా trust $$నమ్మకం$$ మరియు respect $$గౌరవం$$ లేమి పెళ్లిని లోపల నుంచి చెడగొట్టే “silent killers” అని అన్నారు.
- marriage ముందే కనిపించే red flags ను ignore చేయొద్దని, “పెళ్లి తర్వాత సెట్ అవుతుంది” అనుకోవడం ప్రమాదకరమని హెచ్చరించారు.
### arranged marriage vs love marriage
- ఆమె అనుభవంలో divorce కేసుల్లో love marriages ఎక్కువగా కనిపిస్తున్నాయని చెప్పారు; సుమారుగా $$10$$ కేసుల్లో $$7$$ love marriages, $$3$$ arranged marriages అని చెప్పారు.
- love marriage లో courtship సమయంలో expectations చాలా ఎక్కువగా ఉండటం, పెళ్లి తర్వాత reality వేరుగా అనిపించడం సమస్యగా మారుతుందని చెప్పారు.
- arranged marriage లో మొదటి నుంచే adjustment అవసరమని అంగీకరించే మానసిక సిద్ధత కొంత ఎక్కువగా ఉంటుందని ఆమె అభిప్రాయం.
- అయితే arranged marriage లో in-laws interference, ego clashes, extra-marital issues లాంటి కారణాలు కూడా ఉంటాయని చెప్పారు.
### సెక్స్ మరియు విడాకులు
- వివాహ బంధంలో sex ఒక ముఖ్య భాగం; sex నిరాకరణ కొన్ని సందర్భాల్లో విడాకులకు ground అవుతుందని చెప్పారు.
- physical intimacy లేకపోవడం physiological, emotional, past trauma వంటి కారణాల వల్ల కావచ్చని వివరించారు.
- కొన్ని జంటలు సంవత్సరాల పాటు almost sexless marriage లోనే ఉంటూ, పిల్లలతో కలిసి కుటుంబంగా కొనసాగుతారని చెప్పారు.
- మరోవైపు excessive sexual demands కూడా cruelty లేదా marital distress గా మారవచ్చని ఉదాహరణ ఇచ్చారు.
- అంటే సమస్య “సెక్స్ ఉండటం లేదా లేకపోవడం” మాత్రమే కాదు; పరస్పర సమ్మతి, సౌకర్యం, గౌరవం ముఖ్యమని భావం వచ్చింది.
### కుటుంబ జోక్యం
- భారతీయ పెళ్లిళ్లలో spouse తో పాటు కుటుంబ వ్యవస్థ కూడా పెద్ద పాత్ర పోషిస్తుంది.
- mother-in-law, parents, widowed parent dependency, over-involvement వంటి అంశాలు దాంపత్యంలో ఒత్తిడి పెంచగలవని చెప్పారు.
- marriage ముందు family dynamics గురించి స్పష్టంగా మాట్లాడుకోవడం చాలా అవసరమని సూచించారు.
### ప్రాక్టికల్ పాఠాలు
- పెళ్లి ముందు red flags ను గమనించాలి.
- కుటుంబ హద్దులు, money, children, intimacy, parents’ involvement, career expectations గురించి ముందే మాట్లాడుకోవాలి.
- కోపంలో వెంటనే divorce నిర్ణయం తీసుకోవద్దు; కొంత సమయం తీసుకుని ఆలోచించాలి.
- trust మరియు respect లేకపోతే ప్రేమ మాత్రమే marriage ను నిలబెట్టలేదనే భావన వీడియోలో బలంగా వచ్చింది.
- “ఇతరుల తప్పుల నుంచి నేర్చుకోవడం చౌక, సులభం” అనే మెసేజ్ మొత్తం సంభాషణలో కనిపిస్తుంది.
### ఒక లైన్లో సారం
ఈ వీడియోలో ప్రధానంగా చెప్పింది ఏమిటంటే: భారత్లో విడాకులు కేవలం చట్టపరమైన సమస్య కాదు; అది trust, respect, sex, family interference, expectations, మరియు నెమ్మదైన న్యాయవ్యవస్థ అన్నీ కలిసిన చాలా క్లిష్టమైన వ్యక్తిగత-సామాజిక అంశం.
Transcript:
(00:00) I'm a litigating lawyer mahul but my first thing is guys don't go to court breakdown of marriage not a ground under the Indian law in a contested matter we are incompatible big deal >> oh >> not a ground you have to prove that your conduct has caused immense agony immense grief and the system is that in a lower court you are stuck for 5 to seven years then you go to the high court high court you are stuck for the next same number of years >> wow >> I had this guy I'm talking about around 12 years back he still not got a divorce
(00:34) they rejected it because they said you have not made out a case of alleged mental cruelty perpetrated on you so today that gentleman is married giving maintenance to the wife >> and we do hear about laws getting abused in divorce >> so there was there's the protection of women from the domestic [music] violence act which was enacted and there were various justifiable reasons for doing so more to protect and empower the women but Then there was a c-section of society especially the women who started abusing and misusing the law for altered
(01:07) motives. I've seen cases where 80 and 85 year old grandparents were arrested on complaints made by a woman. The court said that you tell me what your problem is. She was carrying a bag. It was an bag. So she tells the court that there's no food on my table. But I was so tempted to just ask her to sell her bag if she doesn't have it [music] and see the kind of food that she'll be able to eat.
(01:35) When matters of maintenance comes, every husband has gone into insolveny and he's gone bankrupt and every woman who is there is so distressed that there's no food on the table and both of them are lied. I'm saying this in 2026. Okay. Marriage is an institution which gives you security, is an institution which gives [music] you status, is an institution which looks up to you with a lot of respect.
(02:01) >> Do arrange marriages last longer than love marriages? >> If there are 10 cases which are there for in my experience, seven of them are >> you have been married for decades and you have spent your entire career watching marriages end. The most important thing [music] that in a longstanding relationship like my marriage is over four decades [music] uh is >> Muralini Deshmuk is one [music] of India's top divorce lawyers.
(02:29) She has spent decades inside the most private breakdowns of [music] Indian families where love, money, children and the law all collide [music] at once. In this conversation, we get into everything. Why marriages actually break. What couples never talk about before getting married but should. How sex, [music] infidelity and social media become fault lines.
(02:51) How the law gets used and misused. How alimony really works. What happens to family wealth and what [music] a clean divorce can look like even in India. Nobody walks into a marriage planning to leave. Rani has seen thousands of divorce cases which makes this [music] one of the most honest conversations you'll ever hear about relationships.
(03:11) If you're in any sort of relationship, learn from [music] other people's mistakes. It's cheaper and you'll be happier. Let's just pause. Subscribing here isn't just about supporting our channel. It's about choosing what kind of thinking you want around you regularly. So, if that resonates, you know what to do. For someone who doesn't know you, can you tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do? >> So, Miralani Deshmuk, I'm a lawyer.
(03:39) uh started working as a constitutional and uh administrative lawyer in the high court obviously got married got kids took a sbatical for 16 years then I did my masters in law took up teaching at the university postgraduate level I was also teaching here at the KC college constitutional law and once my kids were a little grown up where my younger one she was around 10 and my older one was 14 then I said because The passion was always there for me to work as a lawyer.
(04:14) Well, what once started as something with no mentor, no senior and uh just going and trying as a fresh law graduate. Then one thing led to the other and I could work on those things. So when I took up Mul family law, let me be very honest and I'm talking about 25 26 years back. So when I when I started there I'm telling you even people from my profession and people around didn't really look up to me taking family law I mean maybe she doesn't know much [snorts] she can't handle law criminal or corporate basically is the >> was the in thing to be done
(04:56) >> right right >> however I knew my priorities which was to combine my work and my children >> yes >> and I want and I got into it and today the reason I'm giving you this background Today corporate lawyers who have worked in corporate law firms or whatever had there are all getting into family law.
(05:17) So that's is it the growth in the family law? Is it the number of cases that have gone up? Is there a lot of importance that is being given to this kind of law? Or is it the most important thing that is happening? In fact, the statistics say and I'm talking about Bombay. I don't know about the other part of it that the maximum filing of the petitions are done in the family court.
(05:39) So that's the kind of thing that has it's got now. And is that because of is that is the family law growth also because of the divorce rates? You know, you keep hearing different things that India has one of the lowest divorce rates in the world, but it's growing. I think you said it's galloping. >> Yes. So, so I'll tell you, India did have a low divorce rate and I would say 10 years, 15 years back.
(06:02) If you compare it with the US and other European countries, today the rate has gone up, but it's not as high as the the rates which are there. And also in India mak you have to understand we have to see the urban area >> urban metro then you have two tier cities and then you have these other things.
(06:21) So divorce is predominantly in the urban metro areas. >> What is the divorce rate would you say? >> So I don't have the official statistic but I don't think it would be more than 8 to 10%. that also on the higher side. >> Got it. And uh is it true that women are now initiating the majority of divorce cases in India? >> Yes. >> In your experience? >> I'll tell you definitely women are now in uh are the ones who are initiating as compared to men and again I'm giving you a comparative thing only for you to understand how the Indian structure work. So again if I go back say 20 years
(06:55) back it was obviously more men who would come and who would wanting it. If some women, if some lady came, she would not come with her family. She would come with a friend or she would come with a cousin >> because it was something that she was, it was a taboo. Where we come now, we here. Yes.
(07:13) To answer your question, there are a lot of women which are coming forward. They know what they want in life. They want they are very definite what they want to do and they have no hesitation in going to a lawyer and asking that if this is what I want, what are my options etc etc etc. One of the reasons MKul is also and especially I'm talking with the urban metro uh population of women is a little bit of financial independence that has come up awareness about that you can lead your life the way you want.
(07:46) Marriage is not some chain that you are it's not an institution when in which you are chained and you have to be there. And thirdly and more importantly is that you do have a right over your life to lead in a in a more meaningful manner rather than being stuck because you are stuck in an institution called marriage. So I think it's a combination you know and we are now globally we are all globally exposed.
(08:10) >> So all those things also affect the way you think. Um you know you were talking about the courts the family courts in Mumbai or in Bandra >> and you were telling me about the the backlog and you know can you tell us a little bit about how the courts are and how many courts are there? So 25 26 years back we would be having around 500 700 cases a year.
(08:30) >> A year >> a year >> in Mumbai >> there were some 20 25 lawyers who were there. There was five seven judges and who would run it. Now we come today today we have and today in the family court in Mumbai we have seven floors. Each floor has one judge and each court has around 75 matters every day. So multiply 75 into 7 on one single day.
(08:55) >> I would say all of them are divorces there. Some of their child custody issues, some of them are at the counseling stage, maintainance, settlement, etc. >> 25 years ago, we had 500 cases a year. >> And look at >> And now you have 500 cases a day. >> Yes. >> And still it's jammed >> and the backlog you I mean I I'm sure we all read newspapers including the Supreme Court.
(09:16) Chief Justice has said that how do we cover the backlog? I mean I have I can tell you an interesting story that I had this guy who had come to me I'm talking about around 12 years back and started with the divorce 12 or 13 years back his matter is still in the high court. He's still not got a divorce. >> But why did this happen? >> Because the system because >> but why did they reject it? >> They rejected it because they said you have not made out a case of alleged mental cruelty perpetrated on you by your wife. So the that's that's where we
(09:47) need to understand what it is. So we have a divorce by mutual consent where both the parties are consensual parties and they agree >> that's easy >> that's relatively easy and because sometimes the the the terms that have to be negotiated takes time the money or the children or case may be but that if you arrive at a situation that's relatively easy >> as compared to this I want a divorce and you're going to say no I don't want to give you a divorce what do you do then I have to say >> breakdown of marriage not a ground under
(10:15) the Indian law in a contested matter We are incompatible. Big deal. >> Oh, >> not a crowd. You have to prove out. You have to prove that your conduct has caused immense agony, immense grief, which is reflected either in my physical, you know, it is affecting my physical well-being, my emotional well-being.
(10:38) So, the law used to be that it is impossible for me to live with you if you are able to prove that like what you have in criminal law beyond reasonable doubt. So here it's impossible for you to live with me only if you're able to prove that the mental cruelty could be given and some other party not for the love of the husband or not for anything else maybe sheer vengeance or sheer I'm going to give you back I'm not going to give you divorce go fly a kite and the system is that in a lower court you are stuck for seven to eight five to seven eight years then you
(11:11) go to the high court high court you are stuck for the next same number of years >> wow >> and then you have an option in Supreme Court. One matter very well-known doctor who started his petition for divorce in the lower court with a 2-year-old child lost in the lower court, lost in the high court went we went to the Supreme Court.
(11:31) The Supreme Court said sorry we will not give you divorce. Now there is no other forum available for me. So how many years? >> I am married 15 years. >> So the child is now 17. >> Yeah. Yeah. 18. He's just about taking you know what is that a medical entrance and all? He's a doctor. the the father is a doctor. So which is exactly what is happening.
(11:52) So today that gentleman is married away from the spouse for 15 18 20 years whatever the number of cases are there giving maintenance to the wife and still not getting the relief. >> Got it. >> Unlike overseas just to make a comparison divorce is given for the asking. What is agitated are these ancillary issues of child custody assets or whatever you know division of the assets etc.
(12:22) So you are assured of divorce the rest is taken away. >> That makes sense if one person doesn't want to be with the other person. >> But you have to understand the Indian background. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because you have to understand where we are coming from. It's not only about the value system. It's about >> it's different for different ind.
(12:35) >> It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot of it that you have to see it in the context in which we are there. I mean yes as you and me we would think about it that okay if two people can't live and if one doesn't want to live with the other then why would you not just let me go and why can't you do that but that is they have to see in the overall perspective in all the angles that the courts have to see so do though the laws are pretty colonial in that sense uh because our laws are based on the matrimonial causes act archaic indeed courts are now
(13:10) suggesting through judicial activism about some more innovative and ex but the law as we talk still remains the way it is. >> So better watch it before you get married. >> Yes. >> Cheating grounds for divorce. >> Yes. So there are under the law there are various grams of divorce. So one is adultery.
(13:30) So so which includes cheating, infidelity. Then there is mental cruelty, physical cruelty, desertion over a period of two years and more. Somebody has mental health issues. So they call it unsoundness of the mind and and lastly also there are certain things which are you know health-wise which are communicable diseases etc. But what is cheating under the law adultery.
(13:52) So if a spouse is cheating on the other and if he or she has gone out out of mar outside marriage and indulged into adultery then that could be a good ground for divorce for the other. But what happens if there is no physical relationship of adultery? There is infidelity which is at an emotional level that can be at best and that too depends upon how the judge feels about it could be couched as mental cruelty.
(14:23) So infidelity is a ground for divorce. >> Got it. And is that how common is that in your experience? >> I would say it's pretty common is because uh today we are all women and men are working. We are associating with each other at different levels at workplace at at clubs at at whatever things are there.
(14:43) These days I find very many cases just incidentally school parents >> ah >> you know your child is going my child is going and then you know we meet either as school parents we meet together or we go for whatever their camps or and things and this is where these extra relationship in fact there is a is a I'm talking for myself that there is a particular buildings which are there somewhere in these lower paral areas where I have five of these cases at a time and I'm talking to you right now.
(15:13) >> Five cases in one building. >> Yes. I mean it's it's a complex of two build towers and in those things which are a having affair with B from A tower to B tower, B tower is having with C, C is this and some of them are school parents and things like that. So this is one thing that yes so there are very many avenues available for men and women to interact and that leads to some cases I'm not saying all cases but some cases into infidelity >> proximity is the number one factor in determining attraction >> yes
(15:46) >> so the more time you can spend with someone >> yeah so with your colleagues if you are at the workplace or we are you're like you know things like no I'm just giving you a different issue is >> pretty serious yes >> yes that that's the change that I see in my >> and um what are the different types of infidelity that you see? >> Yeah.
(16:06) So the ground for divorce as I said earlier is adultery. So adultery necessarily includes a sexual uh and intimacy, physical intimacy with the person or the uh outside marriage. But nowadays we also have what is known as emotional infidelity or mental infidelity as one would call it. And which means that there may not be actually uh in in the real sense uh actual uh physical intimacy but barring that there is everything.
(16:35) So A and B are into a relationship they are not having any physical relation but they share everything they care for just as a a couple is supposed to be doing and they're so involved with each other and each other's life that is affecting the marriage. So then the marriage becomes secondary, the marital relationship becomes secondary.
(16:56) And thirdly and more importantly is then your priorities are completely different and that is also what affects the relationship. So your husband say I would say one's husband may not be to put it in a very cliched manner sleeping around with the girl or lady or ladies as one would call it [laughter] but yeah we have a lot of such cases but is al but is surely a one who is so emotionally invested in another person I know it's nothing physical but I have doubts but that's one part of it and if this is so much investment in this relationship which is So emotional. What
(17:34) is there in my because a person who has emotional infidelity their even physical and sexual intimacy with their partner goes south. >> Those are the two types of infidelity. >> Yes. So that's the major thing that we're talking about. >> You know you said that all good lawyers have to be good shrinks as well and especially a divorce lawyer obviously >> because you're dealing with such a personal thing two people ultimately.
(18:01) Um but what I want to understand is you know you said in 10 minutes of meeting someone you know is serious or not serious is it just some frivolous I had a fight last night had a few drinks or it's like this has been a long festering thing how do you how do you see those signs >> yeah so to be honest this is purely by experience not that I have any exceptional skills that I would like to say about it but by experience one is able to gauge what it is we do have people who who have It's a knee-jerk reaction like you just mentioned that
(18:34) there was a major fight that took place or it could also be that last night I discovered that my husband was was chatting with someone last night and I found out that there's some person there and and there was some emojis exchanged and some ex things exchanged and uh something popped up and all these I'm just telling you the the way they put it and I can't be living with him and they come the next day I mean without realizing that okay he's done what he's done he's it's definitely not right but is it really so wrong so if you have to
(19:05) strike a balance between really is it so so then we at least me probably with my limited experience I'm able to understand that this is not really what is required I one doesn't have to fuel this further empathy is one part of it but not to take it to its the level at which they want not that all want to listen to it or want to go by the advice that we that I would feel is wise counsel but at least it helps some people to because I'll tell them that listen I completely understand I empathize with you this is not done but
(19:40) can we think about it maybe 10 days later or a week later how do you feel about it talk about it think about it just mull over it think about everything I'm here we can meet after 8 days some of the cases I've seen that they have thought about it that we need some more time or maybe can we come back to you whenever Surely I mean ideally don't come back because then that means you're working on the marriage.
(20:04) Some of them are determined. Then we have to take it to its logical end because you can just kind of advise ultimately it's their life. They have to take their own choice. >> And how can you tell when they've made up their mind >> like the other day also I was talking to one of the persons and he was telling me that he's determined.
(20:23) So they adopted a girl two years back. They didn't have a child. So I just told him I said listen such a beautiful daughter you adopted. He showed me the picture. I said you adopted a child which means you wanted a child. God was kind enough to give you. >> Now why do you want this child to grow up who was otherwise maybe in an orphanage >> and who with the grace of God came to a family like yours again to be in a broken home.
(20:49) >> Right. Believe you me, Mul. I tried to counsel him for nearly two hours with his mother next to him. >> You really wanted >> No, I wanted I was looking for the child. I said and I said, "This this gentleman is just uh overreacting or things like that." >> He said, "Let me think and come back." >> And I just I I said, "Show me some pictures of your daughter and you.
(21:13) " I just wanted him to. So he came next to me, showed me on the phone some I said see a and really beautiful child and I said so on and so forth. U he came after 3 days and says no I'm determined I don't want it uh my child could be with her mother obviously because she's two year two years of age uh we want to work out all these things.
(21:35) So he was very determined. So I failed and I'm saying this I failed as a lawyer or as a person or whatever to impress upon him why it was necessary and the reasons were very frivolous >> really. >> The reason was that she's governed and dictated by her mother. Her mother interferes too much >> and unfortunately the mother is a widow.
(21:56) I understand that she has to be supportive but the interference is becoming very claustrophobic for me. >> They should have decided that before they had the kid. I just and I told that's exactly what I said. I said listen you just adopted a child two years back. It's not that the child is some 10 years and it it happened.
(22:16) So he said now because the child has come the the the the grandmother that is the nanny has come and just plonked herself in our house >> because we are both working and she said why do you need some outside help? I'm there and I'm doing this and there is no time she decides everything. Now I'm sure it's very painful for him to take this call because of this.
(22:37) But if you see as a third person, you'll find it >> quite excessive. Quite excessive. >> Yes. And weird. I mean, how could that be a reason for it? So he didn't have much against his wife. Okay. That except that she's been dictated by her and she just followed. But it was like it was like a issue between the son-in-law and mother-in-law, a divorce between them.
(22:55) >> Right. Wow. Because you know, and that's very interesting. and uh the family dynamics and in India of course we have we have joint families we have you know close-knit India is a close-knit family space where the parents or the mother who's single is there of either of the spouses um we have more family intervention in India that's just that's just India you know you can't that is what India is how important you know like if you want to make a list over this whole podcast what things that people can look out for um to prevent
(23:31) them coming to you. [laughter] So uh I guess one of the things would you say is that understand the dynamic of the family that you're getting into. Is that a very important >> that that's a very important family dynamic? It's a very important factor. I I also would like to say that if there are any red flags that you see prior to getting married, maybe when during your courtship period or when you're in a relationship or something, my advice to people is first address those red flags.
(23:58) Don't shove it under the carpet and don't say okay that can be dealt with after we get married because you never know how they surface. If you find just in this in the case of this gentleman who found his mother-in-law very interfering and may not be with a with a bad intent maybe stemming out of her insecurity or just having a control over her daughter or something.
(24:21) I asked him I said did you notice that? So he said yes I did notice prior to marriage but I thought that once I get married my do my my wife will be sort of you know she'll tell her mother that okay mom I love you I'll take care of you everything is there but this is my life and you know if you need I'm always there and I mean but he's saying this is what I expected so I said yeah that your expectation was very utopian did you express it to your wife prior to marry now your wife who was your girlfriend then I asked her I
(24:51) said listen this is what I'm finding a little unnerving or I'm finding something which is very disturbing for me because I mean so she said that listen even your mother is a widow and and your mother would also do the same thing and she whom much she cling on to you so maybe that's what she's doing but I I guess our parents will realize after our marriage that we have our own unit and we need to sort of be independent so but it didn't happen it didn't happen >> so sometimes even when you have a conversation Yes.
(25:21) >> Uh >> yes. And when you have a conversation and and if you really feel it's not going at least I'm not saying call it off but at least give it some time >> whether that can be h I mean what's the what's the hurry? Why why rush into something >> only fools rush in another great song. >> Absolutely fools rushing.
(25:39) [laughter] What a beautiful song that is. >> Yes. Um and we have you know we've talked about you know like the obvious almost cliches which is infidelity or you know financial things. Are there any other silent killers that you find that that really you know set in and and make the marriage rot and then end up in a divorce? >> The silent killers as I would say in my opinion is uh lack of respect and lack of trust.
(26:11) Like I always say mul maybe it sounds very um sort of preachy but ultimately in a relationship trust and respect are the most important. So that's the edifice. Your love your romance your passion all these things maybe maybe for the younger generation that is very important. But if you if it has to be a longlasting sustainable relationship if you have these two basic things then I think you are able to tide over all these situations.
(26:36) It's not about running around the trees as you see in movies or >> that's good in the beginning you need it for a spark >> but that's that's in initially no but I'm saying longlasting so that's why I said that in a sustainable >> that's kind of premarriage >> yeah that's >> and then few years but then >> trust and respect in fact trust and respect help a lot even if things don't work out >> don't work out >> which they might you know life is going on but if there's trust and respect then everything is fine it doesn't go into
(27:01) some crazy dramatic >> yes it divorce zone >> so these kind perspectives help you in you know keeping the relationship together or cementing is is what I feel >> that's a very good point so they have my back yes >> do I trust >> at least when you're getting married >> at that point you should feel that I 100% I trust means I'm things may change but when I'm getting married I trust this person 100% with my life my finance my whatever if I have those doubts then >> yes then that is something that one needs to think about it
(27:32) >> right another important thing in India is arranged and love marriages you know the eternal question >> yes >> do arranged marriages last longer than love marriages >> so if you see the statistics in courts and I'm not making very general statement if there are 10 cases which are there for divorce >> in my experience and I'm saying solely from my point of view I'm sure other people have their own thing out of 10 eight of them are love marriages or let's say seven if I want to be more balanced seven of them are love
(28:03) marriages and three of them are arranged marriages. So yes, arranged marriages in some cases last longer but there are various reasons for it also >> and the reason for the seven that they go I think there's too much of expectations prior to marriage and then when the reality hits when you get married could be as stupid as wet towel on bed or it could be what >> really you've seen a wet towel.
(28:30) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. OCD people have OCD that also leads to it. You can't keep the cup like this. The cup has to be like this. Okay. And if it is not there, it's just a big thing. So these are the situation it becomes very difficult to live with such people because they don't reason. They just want it the way it is.
(28:49) So yes, it does. >> So wet wet towels and cups being placed wrongly have led to divorces. >> Yeah. Because it's not just one thing. It's a cumulative effect. But this plus this plus this plus this and that's how it leads to >> all these little OCDs and and tell me so a little bit more about arranged and love marriages like you said seven out of 10 is uh >> yeah on an average >> so it's about double you know three and seven >> yeah yeah more than that yeah >> so what would you say the reasons are for that >> see the reasons for that is in my
(29:15) understanding are that your expectations during courtship period or when you're in love or whatever you say to each other and what when the reality hits you hard are two different things you are not able to sort of you know adjust to that kind of a situations >> and it's also >> oh you love you you would if if I put my hair like this you would love me and you would say something I've done it something you don't even look at me you don't even have a comment on it so you say okay I saw it I didn't comment yes uh I was busy I was doing not that I
(29:45) intended to do that it could be very frivolous okay and I'm giving you the most frivolous of an example only to draw home the point and and and this is not what you're doing so obviously you're a different you have no interest in me. So these are stupid things and I'm calling them stupid and pardon me for that are the ones which just multiply and grow into a monster that anything and everything that I do is not appreciated.
(30:09) Anything and everything that I I say is tweaked and twisted and things like that. >> So would you say it's better if you if you want less chance of divorce, it's better to have an arranged marriage, listen to your parents. >> It's not listening to the parents. It is like like I always say like a arrange marriage is like a game of badminton.
(30:27) It's you know you start at love all and you build a score one love two love three. So it is building here you're starting at 100 >> probably some you're going down. >> Got it. >> You cannot go more and >> but but I'm I'm sure people I know so many people who had arranged marriages they also have expectations.
(30:45) Yes, they have expectations but their expectations are tempered with the circumstances and the sense and I believe and again I'm I am no I'm not I don't claim to be authority but just my belief is that there is a long a more sustained effort in adjusting >> in an arranged marriage >> because you already know from before you're prepared yes >> that there is going to be a massive adjustment >> yes and you have to adjust unless you are an acceptable person my way or the highway but I'm talking normal people that there is a an effort a sustained
(31:18) effort in adjustment and in trying to say that and you know mul to be very honest we're talking about families also in arranged marriages it's also the kind of advice that you get from your parents >> it's also the kind of advice that or or what you've seen around in your immediate family or the extended family that reflects on your behavior with or your conduct with the spouse.
(31:40) So it's a very it's a very a mixed thing that we are talking about. So the the reasons for the arranged marriages and again as I said that it's a a random sampling that we were doing and we were talking about it in arranged marriages most of the issues arise from interference of the in-laws or it arises from maybe in like in normal cases somebody has gone astray and somebody is in an adulterous relationship or it also arises from the fact of clash of egos.
(32:13) So a combination of all this is there. But in a in case of a love marriage which ends up uh in uh in in a divorce all your circumstances are different prior to marriage and in some of those cases postmarriage you find them completely different or to a large extent different or to the extent to say that listen you mul you misled me >> you misled me you made me believe this and this is not what it is.
(32:43) So it it leads into that. So I'll tell you in fact love marriage since we're talking about it I have quite a three four cases right now I mean that we're talking about and even in the past where people have been in a living relationship for 3 years four years and whatever young guys at the in their late 20s or whatever and then after four five years and their parents ask them do you want to get married and they also say yes yes we want to get married and they get married and some people who have come to me or some of the clients who've come to me
(33:11) are within and I'm talking about the current cases that I'm dealing and I can't even remember what they in the past within 3 months of marriage within four months of marriage and the first qu and they say and the first question I asked them that you were together for 4 years you obviously had your ups and downs you had wear and tear but you thought that you could take care and you wanted to get married now what has happened in four years and they themselves don't have an answer >> something just changes when you get
(33:38) married >> and what is that one doesn't know >> the same you're in the same house what institution. Some >> see you are at the same house you live for four years. >> Some image some image that you built of marriage. >> Yeah. So four years you lived in the same house now you went underwent some ceremony again you're staying in the same house.
(33:55) >> Yeah. >> For the next whatever 4 months >> as compared to 4 years. >> Can refusal of sex uh lead to divorce? >> Yes. There are quite a few case and I'll tell you the other extreme also that there are quite a few cases where there is emptiness in the relationship or physical intimacy lack of it those could be various reason there could be physical reasons somebody has a physiological problem it could be emotional reasons somebody have the baggage of the past or whatever other reasons are there but mul that is a good
(34:27) ground also in in the eyes of law because sex is one of the is essential things in a marriage but would you Believe me that in so many cases that I know the couple has not had sex for 20 years, 25 years, they've had children. Then you'd wonder how because now thanks to the you know assisted reproductive issues like IVF etc that we are able to give them.
(34:54) So they have children but they have not had sex and they're okay with it. >> They've never had sex. >> No, >> never. >> Never. >> Wow. >> And they're okay with it. And doesn't mean that they are straying or or they having finding some comfort and some soles outside the marriage. No, they are in the marriage. They're devoted in the sense I'm talking about the the intimacy part of it. But that's okay.
(35:17) I'll I'll give an example. U there was this one of the pilots who was there and very nice guy, warm guy and very friendly and things like that. very pretty wife and when he wanted a divorce we tried to do outside the court and discussion didn't happen then we had to take all the details of it what happened >> and he said that one of the reasons is besides whatever their other issues were there's no sex in the marriage so I told him you have two children at at that point of time were 10 and eight that there are two children he said would you
(35:49) believe and I'm putting this very serious those were the only two instance and these were normal born okay so these were the only two instances out of 15 years of marriage that we had sex and we are two children. I said this is sounding absurd. He say yes but that's the fact and that was later when we settled the matter verified with her because she had a she had forget lack of interest.
(36:18) She was she she had I mean she abhor sex she didn't want to be things but she wanted in the m and but at the same time she was opposing divorce when he asked for it and we asked her that why are you doing this so she said I like the comfort of the and the security of a marriage so what you do your job I do my job we take care of the children so what if there is no sex >> for her nothing was lacking >> for her nothing was or that was not so important for her >> yeah yeah >> so it took us a lot of effort to get done by consent. That's the point.
(36:48) >> And can too much sex lead to divorce? >> Yes, in some cases because sometimes these cases could be where there is violence in the marriage. I'm talking about sexual violence. There could be uh unreasonable demands on the person and it could be from both sides. I'm not saying on a woman or things like that.
(37:07) So I mean I had a very interesting case I was uh like we were discussing the other day uh where a man young man must be in his late 30 or mid-30s and he came very tall good-looking young boy who had come and said he said I want to have a divorce etc. So we just trying to find I was sitting and trying to find out what the reason was and his reason was that my wife demands too much of sex and uh so I said what? So he said ma'am you will not believe me that she would want me to have sex with her on a normal day of the week four times and it is
(37:46) impossible for me >> four times a day. four times a day. >> And he says, "My workplace and my residence are just about 5 minutes away." She would insist on me coming back on on lunchtime and she would insist on me coming back by around 4:35 before I come back. And he said, "I just can't. I'm working. I have to come back.
(38:06) I have to have sex. Then I just have to get onto my clothes, work clothes, go back, work." I said, "I would shudder coming home." He would, these are his words, Bul exact words. You think ma'am I would shudder coming home because oh my god now if I go home this is what I have to do and this is not what I want to do.
(38:25) >> Sex is great unless you don't want it. >> Yes absolutely. >> If you don't want it no matter who it is the most attractive person on earth but if you don't want it then it becomes a chore a negative thing and then it becomes stressful. not only a chore it becomes a lot of how do I say forceful thing which isful it's stressful >> and very stressful and it's not something that you would like you know >> it's like it's rare that it happens to a man it happens to I mean if I say this to someone I mean somebody somebody would
(38:54) just kind of find it very funny in this sense maybe if it is vice versa one would take it as one of the things that happen is insane but yes >> yes but but something like this is at least is the Indian context. I don't know what the others are but that this would sound very but these are the stressful things that can happen.
(39:14) So those denial of sex is a good ground for divorce but in certain cases uh the lack of intimacy in a relationship also or zero sex in a relationship also keeps the relationship going. So how do you what do you think is the difference between someone you know some people get completely shattered by the divorce and some people have a new life after that what what advice do you have for people you know to to be resilient after the divorce >> no advice is that you've taken a call and whatever is the happened so now with
(39:51) that situation you have to now see what you want to deal with it either you are looking for a partner who would be a companion or you are resigned to the fact that okay there'll be no partner I I'll be just have friends but then I have to come back to an empty bedroom I have I may have to come back to an empty house because that's what my life is going to be it's like losing a partner you say by death or some other such things how do you reconcile to the fact unless you want to get into that it's very difficult even for such people
(40:19) >> I mean I I've got so many cases which are said that you know he lost her wife he lost his wife and she lost the husband then they met and they got together and and they decided to get married. It's not very easy the second innings as they call it for such kind of people because they have this baggage of the past.
(40:38) >> Got it. Um you know you said a very interesting story about how someone came to you uh looking for basically a pre-wedding counselor. They came to you before they got married for advice. Can you just tell us that anecote? >> Of course. So there was this uh somebody who took appointment with my secretary and they came to my chambers and there's this young boy and young girl and I'm I'm sure they must have been late 20s or early 30s and so like when you go to a divorce obviously is the first question you're going to ask is yeah when did you
(41:07) get married what is the issues etc. So they said we are getting married in 2 3 months down the line. We've know we know each other for the last whatever 2 3 years and we've not decided to get married. We still have so we wanted to speak to you to find out. And I said so how can I help you? I mean you come to me you do you think you should go to a counselor? Do you do you think you should go to a relationship therapist who will help you to do that? So they said no but that would be very cliche things. I mean obviously anybody would
(41:38) be asking to do that but we wanted to come and speak to someone like you with your experience in this field as to what are the dos and don'ts and what are the red flags that we should be aware of. So because we do want to make it a very long-term sustainable relationship because we've both invested our emotions into it. So I said fantastic.
(41:57) I said this this this is the first thing that you need to know that you know you have invested your your best of your emotions. you want to make it a sustainable long longstanding uh you know duration of marriage. So they said yes but we want to ensure that with these because we read so many of these cases which are going for divor.
(42:17) So I had to sit with them and counsel them and tell them not what they should do but what are the things that happen >> or what are the cases that I've dealt with in marriages in relationships in divorce which resulted in divorces from which they wanted. So they didn't want my advice. >> Okay. >> Do this and don't do this.
(42:38) But what are the things that you have seen? What are the like like you asked me what are the causes of divorce? What are the reasons for separation? Why is it that people who are in love with each other say for 3 years, four years decide to get married? And why is it that after 2 years they just hate each other? What is it that brings about this? So I had to sit down with them and give them all this you know sort of uh >> anecdotes and >> anecdotal thing little more uh a little inspirational thing little motivating things etc to be able to do that
(43:09) >> basically you give them you that's very interesting because you give them perspective >> so I also was very impressed with that couple who had come to me and who who asked me such question because I felt it was a very different in a innovative way of understanding rather than going to a therapist or a counselor who would have told you that you have to adjust and you have to do this and you have to do that which would have been more preachy rather than knowing real life cases where divorces have taken place.
(43:36) >> It's interesting in a way it's like you have a health problem and you don't go to just a specialist you go to the top surgeon. >> So they said that it it was very helpful for them. Uh thankfully it's been for it's been what 8 years 10 years they've not come back to me. So God willing they are together happy and if they've achieved some guidance I'm so glad >> amazing and u you know you spoke about uh open relationships are open marriages a real thing in India >> yes they are unfortunate fortunately I don't want to be judgmental about it
(44:09) people are in open marriages and they are in open marriages for five six reason number one the kids are there so they want to have that semblance of a family especially when you're schoolgoing kids etc. I'm not talking about kids who are the universities and things like that. So if so kids are one of the reasons.
(44:27) Second is the social structure family structure that is there which in a way looks down upon separated and divorce things. Now who know that it's an open marriage only the man and the woman know I mean the rest need not know. Thirdly for the financial reasons that you have only one establishment your expenses and I'm talking about people who are see salaried people and things like that.
(44:49) So that is the third option. Sorry that is the third factor that is there for the open relationship and fourthly is that why rock the boat do what you want otherwise and but why rock the boat marriage is an institution which gives you security is an institution which gives you status and today I'm saying this in 2026 okay >> is an institution which gives you status is an institution which looks up to you with a lot of respect.
(45:26) Now, how is it as compared to somebody who's not married? But I don't that's the way it is. So, these are the reasons why people want to stay in an open relationship where you don't topple the apple cart but at the same time you are not stuck in a relationship where you are whining and where you are unhappy and when you're miserable.
(45:45) So would that mean the main reason they are in open relationship is they they want other partners also basically open relationship. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because they are basically unhappy with each other. They let's call it not compatible with each other mentally physically. >> So it's not a positive thing. You know we think of open I mean I was thinking of it more in the way that oh you're such a evolved person.
(46:06) I mean some people think of it like that. >> It's not that it's it's I'm unhappy. >> I see. >> I'm unhappy. You are unhappy. Okay. We try to do whatever it can but we need to be happy. We can't find happiness in each other. How do we do this without affecting this entire structure of family? >> It's a bit of a golden handcuff.
(46:23) >> Okay, that's one way of looking at >> because you're saying like you you want to keep that whole thing around but you don't really want to be married. >> What is marriage? Is it only sex? You only have sex in an open marriage outside. >> Right. >> So what is marriage? Marriage. [laughter] >> Second one.
(46:41) Sorry, it's not only about sex. No, at the end of the day, >> you're doing everything. You you go for family functions, you go for your holidays with the kids, you go for social events, you do everything. Your religious events, everything is fine. >> But you're saying they don't like each other. That's what I'm wondering. >> Yeah, but but these are the things you don't have to love each other or like each other. These are the chores you do.
(46:59) >> Holidays is a big one. >> Holiday is not a big one. Holidays is fine. You may not be in the You may be in the same room. You may be in separate rooms. >> It doesn't really matter. I mean ultimately when you are there >> so they don't share the same bedroom. >> No >> they don't right? >> No it all depends.
(47:16) I mean some people share the same bedroom and still they have what it is but some of them are and now you know mul I don't know maybe it's sounding very strange but doesn't mean that because you're in love and because you have to you have to sleep on the same bed. >> I was just going to ask you that. >> No that's not what it is.
(47:33) There are so many cases where the marriages are okay, let's call them happy or compatible and they do sleep in different bedrooms. As they get older, you need your space, man. It just it's not that everybody has to that you it's not that every night you want to, you know, hug your partner or just cuddle up. >> I don't think anyone does that after 20 years anyway.
(47:53) >> Exactly. And then you just want your own space like >> you want to wind down. You someone wants to read a book at night. Someone wants to go to sleep straight away. Someone wants the AC at 21. Someone wants the AC at 25. These are the small things. >> So yes, like I said, >> everybody snores. >> Yes, I like I said, I'd gone for this dinner where this gentleman we gave him divorce and we don't give him divorce, but he got his divorce and just wanted to do.
(48:18) So we met one more person who was also there friend and the lady was also divorced a couple of years back and and we just spoke to her and since we're talking about it and she said, "Oh, I'm so happy. >> It's my bathroom. sharing my bathroom. So that was a reaction. So it may sound so stupid. But even sharing of a bathroom is something toxic or a painful thing.
(48:42) >> Okay, small pause. Uh this is the part where I'm supposed to ask you to subscribe. But honestly, only do it if you want more conversations that actually make you think. That's the whole point of the secret sauce. All right, back to it. In your experience, um, have you seen social media as being one of the causes for divorce? >> Yes.
(49:06) Uh, people and I'll tell you this, this was more predominant during the co times. >> So where we were all holed up in the houses and obviously that we couldn't go out and things like that. The number of cases that came to me from either spouses from the husband or the wife and of course those consultations were on the phone because there was no physical interaction those days was women and men getting involved with online people it starts with a Facebook request or something then goes into a message what I learned this is something is a learning experience for me then you
(49:38) go on the messages and from messages you go to the WhatsApp and from WhatsApp you go to exchanging this is or I like this adult and some of the cases had also gone into where they were having phone sex they were having whatever kind of some things >> and that was affecting and so so there's a spouse who sleeping and gets up in the maybe to have a glass of water at 2 in the morning and finds the partner on the on the iPad or doing this and going through all that situation so those have been affected where which is called like
(50:10) online interaction with people which has resulted into a very kind of thing. The recent thing is pickle ball and what is that called paddle >> those are the breeding grounds I see >> for and there has been some 32% I mean I don't know I may be completely wrong to it was no no verified so I must give you that disclaimer this all alse these are the places which are the breeding grounds for divorce I mean who who ever thought about it >> so it's basically we're saying [laughter] that >> I know it's very strange Human beings
(50:46) have no control over themselves and wherever a man and woman are in proximity. >> Absolutely. >> Children's school buildings paddle sport >> I've given you all I've given you all. >> It'll be the death bed of the father next thing wherever the girl meets the guy and the guy was whether you were in school college together or you were at workplace or things but this is now getting expanding over all different [laughter] things that one didn't know about it and one learns in in the course of the profession. So you have this paddle and
(51:16) pickle ball and you have this uh okay let's see how it has evolved over a period of time is what I'm saying what typically were the reasons for divorces what typically were even a distraction where infidelity and adultery was a dist but the the levels to which it has now gone or the tentacles that it has is something which is urbanization modern things uh online social >> I mean on one level it's also And I mean this in a positive way that that women have more options also cuz men to some level always had some
(51:51) options. Women didn't have that many options. So >> and women [clears throat] are okay to take that thing. >> Yeah. So >> it's no longer a taboo. >> And on the other side you know cuz we spoke about infidelity and adultery as the law calls it as a cause for divorce. But I'd like to understand from you how do okay suppose someone has cheated whatever way by digital non-digital caught me someone blah blah how do people do people get over that also and still continue a happy marriage because you must have seen that also
(52:19) >> yes it they do they do because they want to aberration may not be the exact word but they feel okay some things which have happened but then >> so I have a upper hand over you because I have I have forgiven you to do that But they again you know it all comes down from the sense of security the status that an institution of marriage has >> and even if somebody has messed it up unless it is to that extent that it's it's a it's terrible and you know it's it's doneal yeah serial like yeah like a serial killer or things like that
(52:51) philander they call that's a whole >> yeah serial killer of the relationship let's put it that way so philander is there then of course then I've given you one chance to but it's it's maybe one or two instances that may have happened two different instances they have happened there are people who have reconciled and continued with their marriage despite such things so I think that in so you know as much as people some people say oh with these number of divorces happening with the kind of situations happening do you think institution of
(53:23) marriage is a defunct institution so I would not like to say it's defunct it has its lots of issues >> it has a 90% success rate >> it has and absolutely Absolutely right. >> Whatever success means I mean >> again it's a very psych Yeah. >> Yes. >> Um so going going to laws basically going ahead into laws um the legal profession and laws in general were created for justice justice for all to protect people.
(53:54) Of course some laws are older like you said archaic nonarchic and we do hear about laws getting abused in divorce. Can you tell us a little bit about that and some sections in particular? >> Absolutely. So what has happened as the law has evolved as I said the matrimonial laws have evolved with the change in timings it was increasingly felt that women need to be empowered more with laws and legislation because they were the at the receiving end.
(54:19) So there were this uh the act uh the uh enactment of the protection of women from the domestic violence act which was enacted. There was another act which came into it where cruelty physical, mental or emotional including dowi demands in some cases or where there were illegal demands which were made were not only a civil wrong but also a criminal wrong and and there were various justifiable reasons for doing so more to protect and empower the women.
(54:46) So good intention, good objects and reasons it helped a lot of people good. But then there was a c-section of society especially the women who started abusing and misusing the law to such an extent that it really lost its flavor or it lost what the sense of the law was. And these are the observations which I'm not making as a divorce lawyer.
(55:12) These are the observations made by the honorable Supreme Court judges in some of the cases that came before it that the laws which were meant to empower the women to give them a right and give them that dignity in the of equality in a relationship are being abused for ulterior motives and those ulterior motives could be for money could be for any of the situations.
(55:34) revenge >> the biggest thing hath no fury like a woman's gone >> vindictiveness and revenge and going to the extent of I'll destroy you kind of a situation is there >> so there are a certain section of the society where the laws have been abused courts have taken cognizance of it families have been destroyed now I'll tell you that this lethal thing which was in the earlier criminal law was known as a 498A now 498 of the Indian penal code was that any kind of cruelty perpetrated on the lady post her marriage by her husband in-laws etc
(56:09) amounted to the husband in-laws the sister married sister and her husband and extended family to be roped into criminal cases and in some extreme cases in the initial stages mul I've seen cases where 80 and 85 year old grandparents were arrested >> on complaints made by a woman because it was a joint family so they were all staying together.
(56:34) So that fear was there and and there was abuse. There were some cases were genuine but there was abuse. So that abuse has really shaken the trust of the of the the the faith in these laws which are there and these abuses leads to trivializing the provisions and that's what we need to >> I mean is it trivializing what happens is because India is so many countries so of course on one level you need very strong laws to protect women because you have crazy stuff that happens >> yes of course and and and these laws are very relevant very very necessary I'm
(57:09) not denying that >> for some different stratas. >> What pains me the most is not the person who doesn't have anything. The person who has but does just wants to use it to get more. >> Can you give me an example of that? >> So these were the cases that happened in the past. So when I when we're talking about this abuse, I very strange thing that I was in one of the uh magistrates court.
(57:30) I was waiting for my matter to be called out and uh and there was one lady who came and uh she was quite well-dressed and she came to the court and her lawyer was not available whatever there was a difficulty so the court said that okay we'll wait till your lawyer come but just tell me what your problem is she was carrying a bag I mean of course me being a woman I I could realize what brand it is and what it could be but that's fine >> tell us the brand >> okay it was an bag >> and it a burkin bag.
(58:00) >> Yeah. Birkin bag as we call it and it was >> one level above. >> Yes. So it was a very expensive bag and the most expensive >> she was the most and she was carrying that bag. That's okay. That's her lifestyle. So then the judge so the magistrate asked her that is what's your problem what it is.
(58:16) So she tells the court that there's no food on my table and when I go back this evening I don't even know whether I'll get my dinner and this is the kind of harassment that I am facing at my place and I just because probably the magistrate didn't know what the value of the bag is or what the cost of the bag is or what the situation is and he would have otherwise said oh my god this is so much of a violence on this it I I so tempted mukul and of course this is none of my business to be very honest or this is not what I but I
(58:50) was so tempted to just stand up and I tell the court as an officer of the court just ask her to sell her bag if she doesn't have it and then or even rent it out or any of those things and see the kind of food that she'll be able to eat so this was in a different lighter vein I mean I'm not actually on what and I don't want to even trivialize the fact that women need to be protected and provided financially with the lifestyle that they enjoyed or with the kind of the financial backgrounds that they had. You know, funnily when matters
(59:22) of maintenance comes, these are the statements made by the Supreme Court judges. Every husband becomes a popper >> or he's gone into insolvency and he's gone bankrupt and and every woman who is there is so distressed that there's no food on the table. So the magistrates have to deal with these two kind of extremes that are there before them.
(59:42) >> Suddenly all the money is disappeared. Suddenly and earlier you may have you may be having three holidays overseas. You may be having all those fine dining etc. But all of a sudden bankruptcy or insolveny or there is several the husband is kara and the woman has no food to eat >> and she has no food to eat [laughter] and both of them are lying.
(1:00:02) Let me be very honest. >> Maybe it's a very euphemistic way of putting it to the court that okay this is what my needs are but they are both a lying >> right? So yes, as lawyers, as as persons who plead the matters, you do have to make it more effective, persuasive, maybe dramatic to a certain extent. But the extent to which this happens is something which is laughable if I may say to to say the least.
(1:00:28) But by when I'm saying this all these provisions and I'm saying this at the cost of repetition all these provisions are necessary because we are talking about this 5% 8% which are abusing or misusing for ulterior gains >> but there is yeah but there is a sizable section of women who do need these things for them to be taken care of and provided for.
(1:00:53) Today all said and done all said and done we do have to understand that there is a large section of women who need the protection of the law who need the money who need to give that kind of a help legally to be able to have a comfortable life for them and not be subjected to what it is now the Supreme Court has laid guidelines earlier as I said they used to just arrest any woman came with a complaint this is my husband this is my mother-in-law this is my grandmother-in-law and they asked for money some divor for dowi some 5 years back, 10 years back and so on and so
(1:01:23) there could be it could be a a matter of fact >> but they would arrest them immediately and there were people who were 80s and 85 grandparents of that age who were also arrested. So this was a level to which the abuse was done and why would they do this? So that my husband comes under pressure and he gives me money.
(1:01:42) So now the Supreme Court after seeing a number of cases that reach the Supreme Court you know these these things don't even reach the Supreme Court at time. So they are not aware of what the ground reality and with utmost respect to the Supreme Court. They they just want they know what the enact the the enactment is but they so when these cases came and the courts realized that this is how it's been abused.
(1:02:03) Now they've laid down guidelines. So if a woman comes and she complains unless it's a very severe complaint where she's badly bruised, hurt or where she is sort of you know any of such things are there you can take immediate action against the person. But otherwise if there's a complaint that there is you know harassment there is no food as I said or all these things take a complaint register an FIR take statements from the husband or who the other accused are father-in-law mother-in-law make a comprehensive report give the report to
(1:02:33) the higher person whoever the DCP level and then if they feel that there are certain actions to be taken no arrest has to be made unless these guidelines are followed Now that has given a lot of comfort to the men who are there and also for lawyers like us to tell the husbands that okay it may be a complaint there could be an FIR but it does not mean that you'll be arrested >> and what does a lawyer do when if you have a you know client who's a woman who wants to like you said hell hath no fury like woman's gone and who wants to know
(1:03:06) bring out the big gun and say blah blah blah I want to do this this this is what what does a lawyer do >> what does a lawyer do >> when the client says you know I want M >> so that's what what that's where the advice of a a lawyer advises whether you can do it in a different manner which is in a more dignified manner or do you want to go down the route of just you know completely destroying them you know because since we are talking about this there are a lot of mothers of small children who are misusing the poxo act
(1:03:35) you know yeah which is the sexual offenses against minors >> oh >> so even if it's a girl child or a male child they are misusing this is under Juvenile Justices Act and they're making false complaints against husband and in-laws and those laws are very severe >> because these are of sexual offenses against minors >> which could be hurt causing which could be you know whatever the case may be and this these not all cases are genuine.
(1:04:04) These are some cases which are which which some women either by due to advice or maybe they are very vicious enough to do they want to destroy the other person they they resort to it. So what I'm trying to say on a at a larger thing that the more the laws that you have the good they are for the good of the women.
(1:04:27) So we are we should be responsible when we use them. We should be more aware of what we are doing. Otherwise, you're trivializing it and tomorrow the courts are going to feel okay every woman who's coming here or most of the women are coming here is only because she wants a good settlement. >> But how do they know that that the woman or the man is lying? How do they know that? >> So then you have to go through the evidence and then you have to go through the medical reports and then you have to go through >> and then it comes out the truth comes
(1:04:49) out. Yeah. Then truth comes out. No, see ultimately what it is me making a complaint against you. It may be just a primmaishi thing but me making a complaint and proving it in a court of law within the parameters of what the evidence laws is on the touchstone of that is and then the courts being satisfied is how the final justice is given >> and then whether after a lot of those cases happen is when the court can really understand this is being misused or not.
(1:05:16) >> Yes. And just to give you one more example though this is not exactly in in the realm of family law. You know these are uh the the poss that is prevention of sexual offenses at workplace. >> Now even that was made primarily for for lady workers who were subjected to either colorful remarks from the men or you know things like that which >> or sexual harassment >> for sexual harassment and it it does not necessarily mean physically harass but even making such kind of thing.
(1:05:43) The gods realized that even those kind of things were were uh were with an agenda and most of them were not genuine. What has happened is I'm a complainant. I say you are the you're the CEO of the company. You are the one who sexually harassed me. My name is not disclosed because I am the victim. >> But your name is disclosed. Okay.
(1:06:07) We go through this and it's found out that you've done nothing. >> But your image is already tarnished, right? whatever your your reputation your image your standing in the society has been tarnished as an accused as an alleged sexual offender to his colleague at the workplace. So these are the kind of long-term effects that it has uh in cases of workplace but coming back to the subject that we are talking about.
(1:06:32) So it is very imperative that the laws are not abused and this is what I keep telling a lot of uh sort of you know in in my public opinions that it is very responsibly as lawyers we have to use the law so that the effectiveness of the law remains. >> Got it. I if someone has been wrongly accused in a divorce case like you said what can they actually do and what >> nothing there are no damages either your petition is allowed or it's dismissed >> right >> so there are no damages >> so you and what is a realistic timeline
(1:07:07) where you can >> be >> for a divorce >> in a lower court it takes 5 years >> if you are accused of some crazy stuff >> no [snorts] whatever crazy stuff is you have to prove it if you're not able to prove it then the other then you just go you don't get to divorce. The wife says my husband had done XY Z and the wife has not been able to prove that.
(1:07:27) Her contentions are dismissed. >> Got it. >> But this guy has gone through what he's gone through. There's no compensation for him. >> Got it. I want to talk about alimony. What is alimony? >> Okay. So alimony is the amount which is awarded by the court to a spouse and in most cases uh the woman for her sustainance and maintenance in the event of a divorce being granted.
(1:07:53) Pending the petition there is what is known as an interim maintenance because if she has no money and she's out of the house and she needs the courts will say till we decide what the divorce is whether to be granted or not and what are the other reliefs the courts will award her say one lakh two whatever the case may be for her monthly maintenance.
(1:08:12) So these are the financial [clears throat] provisions in inbuilt in the matrimonial laws. >> Got it. You know, one of the most searched questions on divorce is if my wife earns more than me, do I still have to pay her if I get divorced? >> Yes, that is the most searched question because the ways it is.
(1:08:30) So the answer to that question is if she earns more than you, but what are your assets? You and I may be working, my salary is $100, your salary is say $50. So yes, I'm earning more than you. But then what are your assets? >> I have to see your net worth. So the courts have to see that. I mean with utmost respect to the courts one courts give one court will give a view that even if the woman is working earning you have to give you have to pay material some courts will say no if she's working she's financially independent you should
(1:08:59) not give so if you ask me what is the law I'll give you these two judgments now you decide what the law is >> but the most searched question the answer to that is no unless you are able to prove that she has enough money and also continuing with that if she has more you as a husband can also ask for more. >> Has that happened? >> Yeah.
(1:09:22) So under the Hindu marriage act, under the pari marriage act because our marriages are based on religion, >> a husband has an equal right to ask the wife for maintenance or for alimmony if he's able to prove to the court that she has she's well placed or she is better placed than him and he needs that extra money for his lifestyle.
(1:09:42) Has it ever happened that a woman has to pay a man alimony after divorce? >> Yes. So there are very few cases. So I would not say so. So the numbers are very high. But there are cases where the courts have awarded they have also awarded not only alimony they not only maintenance but sometimes assets also if there's a joint asset then it has been done.
(1:10:05) But the presumption and again this is the perception of the cause. The presumption is that a man is supposed to be earning and that he is supposed to be the provider and if he's not doing it's a it's a it's a humongous task for him to show as to why do I don't have a job why I don't have the source of income and why I need in this background from my wife.
(1:10:28) >> Um so how is the alimony decided is there a calculator? So yes, earlier it was to it was very difficult to do it but now the Supreme Court has laid down roughly and again this is very very rough estimate. It is 1/4 of the net worth of the husband. This is considering the woman has zero and the husband say has $100 100 rupees then 1/4 of that so anywhere between 25 to 30 is what she's entitled to.
(1:10:54) So India does not have a law of equitable distribution of assets post marriage or 50% of everything. If a wife is not working and she's sitting at home and not doing she's wellqualified etc. or that she has kids or any of that sort. The courts don't ask her why you not working. >> They should also ask her that listen, you're a qualified person.
(1:11:15) So, you're a qualified chartered accountant. Why are you sitting at home? Why are you not working? I can understand you have a young kid or I understand you have an ailing parent or some other difficulty. In today's time, we all have to earn our own bread. >> The courts don't because that's traditional way of looking at it.
(1:11:33) So just to understand suppose the guy has 100 CR but he says of course I have some dependence my parents and also that gets reduced from it. So the wife can claim up to 25 to 30% 25 to 30 CR. Yes. >> But it could also be less depending on the leakage expenses that he has and all that. >> Yes.
(1:11:53) But the other factors are the the what the law uses the reasonable wants of the applicant in this case wife >> the the number of dependence that they have. Thirdly the courts are also increasingly seeing the number of years invested in the relationship. >> We don't want someone who is kind of you know >> so there are a lot of things in the mix.
(1:12:11) >> So all factors have to be t so it's not such a direct calculation that 100 crores so 25 goes to the wife. What happens to alimony if the paying spouse loses their job or retires? >> Yeah. So then you can always go back to the court and say that there have been change of circumstances in what happened was quite a few of them lost their jobs or they were not able to work or whatever their their situation may have been.
(1:12:34) So the courts do consider change in or you could also go and say that okay my wife at the time when the order was passed was not working but now she's got employment and she's working now. So whatever are the change of circumstances you can bring to the notice of the court and they will indulge. >> Wow you make it sound so nice everything.
(1:12:51) [laughter] >> So though what I'm trying to say there's provision for everything in law. >> Got it. >> You do you do you make use of law but on a more practical note don't go to courts. I'm a litigating lawyer mul but I my first thing is guys don't go to court please. I I know that's a thing temple of justice you'll get there but at the end of it at the end of how much time >> you as a litigating lawyer always are always saying settle out of court.
(1:13:20) So for people who are thinking of getting divorced now how much more will they benefit if they do it out of court versus going in court. So my my my my uh assessment based on my matters are that if the court in a given set of circumstances taking the facts the documents etc are going to grant you say 100 uh rupees or 100 bucks >> with proper negotiations and proper understanding and effectively to the ability of both the lawyers at least 400 to 500 is what you get.
(1:13:51) So three to four times on a more conservative things is what you get and you know mul this is something even the courts have realized. So today we have a lot of mediations >> the courts at every stage at every whether it's commercial maybe less but in family matters where there's dispute between brothers dispute between husband and wife dispute between father son and things like that they all suggest mediation so I think you should you should emphasize this I'll tell you why and this I'm saying is because people need to understand
(1:14:18) >> so what what you're saying mulani is that you should really never go to the court because there are so many options one option is first see a therapist. Second option is get a mediator. Third is get pre-litigation mediation. Correct. >> With a divorce law. You can go to divorce lawyer. >> Yes.
(1:14:36) And he or she will guide you and they will you go because there's a small formality like a petition to be filed at the then the other side. Of course in a pre-litigation mediation mul you have to understand both parties have to agree. >> Of course >> unlike a court whether you like it or not you have to come to the court. But if both parties are agreeable to go for it and by the grace of God and again I'm saying this that I got 100% in these matrimonial matters in pre-litigation mediation is because then there is something which is a independent forum
(1:15:03) which is not where where no lawyers are involved immediately because sometimes even as lawyers you want you know it's always better to keep lawyers aside. So the mediator talks to the parties with his or her experience shares what really happens in courts and things like that. The mediator cannot decide okay don't take 100 take only 60.
(1:15:24) No that's not his job. He can just give an eye opener what happens what is it necessary and get people to put on their thinking caps and put them and let them think and come to an understand. the both the parties have to talk to each other or or >> so they can talk to like you are the like I'm the mediator you are here so you I have one individual session with you I have one individual session with the other side then sometimes with both of them and maybe at the at some at some point of time get lawyers also because sometimes my client is more comfortable
(1:15:54) with the advice that I'm giving so then even if I say that yes listen so and so what the mediator is saying is right why don't you consider that then we can you know get things sorted And can a spouse lose the right to alimony if they it's proved that they've cheated in the relationship. >> So the there were initially laws which said that if you because you know as they call it that fidelity was one of the essential things of a marriage uh I'm sorry to use these words but in the law said a chased woman.
(1:16:26) >> So those are the ways good because we are young as I said a chased woman. >> A chased woman. I know it sounds very but I have to tell you what the law were. So a chased woman was a person who was entitled and those who someone who was not Yeah. Someone who was not was not entitled for it. >> Now it is a little different.
(1:16:48) It does not condone the act of say adultery by a woman or something but or a man and but so so they may not be compensating her equally as compared to a woman who has who otherwise is not guilty of these things but it does not leave the woman penalous. >> So some kind of things is there's some progression. >> So yeah so the courts come to a balancing >> right.
(1:17:15) What are the legal consequences if the spouse refuses to pay the agreed amount? >> Oh, then uh there's contempt of course and whatever pro happens with the contempt of court there are recovery proceedings then your car could be taken away. >> But that must be taking years. >> Yeah, it takes years. Yeah, it takes. >> So basically, >> so that's why so when I we can come back to the original thing that when we're talking about out of court settlement, we most in most cases talk about a lumpsum settlement, >> right? And we explain to our lady uh
(1:17:46) clients that listen >> it may not be exactly the number that you want. >> But don't you think a bird in hand is what two in the push? >> So let's get it done so long as it is reasonable because it saves your time, money, energy >> and you're out of this entire thing. So at least you can focus on other things.
(1:18:05) Otherwise it weighs on your mind >> if you want to focus on other things. >> Yeah. If you want to focus. Yeah. Many people don't want to as you know very well. >> Absolutely. >> Uh can a wife legally go after the husband's family business which is you know his his whole family is >> so the wife's rights of alimony maintenance whatever they are are only restricted to what the husband's income is or what his net worth is >> in that there could be a share of the family business there could be some others or you know we have our own
(1:18:34) investment portfolios etc. So all those things can be considered but then she cannot go after the wealth of the in-laws or the brother-in-law or etc. for her alip. >> It's his net worth, personal net worth. >> It's only his personal thing. >> Got it. You know, today high net individuals have money in so many different areas.
(1:18:54) You have crypto, people have money offshore, uh foreign properties, you know, far-flung assets everywhere. And like you said, the judge says that the man is a popper and the woman has no food to eat when the when the case comes up because everybody is making up stories and >> deflating their net worth. Um are uh prenups prenuptial agreements legally binding in India? A lot of people ask this question.
(1:19:19) >> So with an increasing number of divorces and the number of cases and the backlogs and things like that and uh it became a question that the courts though the courts have not legally accepted there alo there is no statute. It is lawyers and law thinkers who have now come up with prenups which are more in the nature of a MOU which is a memorandum of understanding that the intending parties and uh want to enter into before marriage just to cut the cost and the time and the stress and all of it.
(1:19:52) So we are encourage uh you we are giving that kind of an advice to them. I would not say we are encouraging them but we are giving that kind of an advice to them to ring fence their wealth in a manner which will cut all the things otherwise they have to get into. So the the high net worth individuals are primarily entering into this where we give them specific uh sort of advice that listen guys this is not an executable document.
(1:20:21) This is not something which you can execute in a court of law verbatim the way you can do with other uh contracts and agreements which are there. But this could be also looked upon by the courts as the intent of the parties uh at the time if the matter >> so are the courts looking on them favorably like do they keep >> it it favorably in the sense not being guided 100%.
(1:20:43) But this was an arrangement. Again what happens in the Indian courts are going into what the facts and circumstances are existing at the time of the decision making. So it may be an understanding that the wife is not given anything. Now why are prenups not legal? If you ask because that's a question that you should ask whether why the other countries are having.
(1:21:06) We are taking it it to be something which is against public policy. So if you see the contract act in commercial things, you cannot enter into a contract which is against public policy. For example, uh if you say this casinos and this gambling is against public policy, you and I enter into that contract. So that contract could be questioned because it is against this.
(1:21:26) Similarly, public policy says to give uh adequate maintainance alimony to the wife. But if there is a contract between the two of them where the wife out of fear favor or because she's madly in love with him says I don't want a penny from you or this >> would that survive in a circumstances where the wife really needs the money or would the courts and the law which otherwise has a public policy of providing for the woman who does not have funds of her own.
(1:21:54) So that is the dilemma that the lawmakers are having before making this as a thing. But today for whatever worth it is and after giving them all these uh sort of you know uh details about there are a lot of HNI who are entering into this for whatever satisfaction that they have for some document to ensure that they got >> everybody knows what a prenup is.
(1:22:16) What is a postnup? Yeah, postnap agreements are as the word itself says agreement entered into by the spouses to arrive at some situation which >> postnuptual >> postnuptual postnup is postnuptual >> post marriage >> post the marriage which is there which we enter into an agreement >> so why would someone enter into an agreement after marriage >> so I have seen cases and I'm I mean I don't know why they would but I've seen a couple of cases that people I mean yeah nobody enters into agreements otherwise you yours and mine families
(1:22:48) but the things are that I have seen cases and that's based on that I'm saying that there are cases where people have suppose a husband is caught in an ultra uh what's that extraarital affair and uh the wife comes to know and then there's a big showdown etc but she continues to be in the marriage the husband says I'm sorry I messed it up and I will never do it again but that trust is broken then again she realizes that okay listen that I've been married with him for last say 10 years 15 years but there's nothing in my name yes he's
(1:23:16) providing me everything but there's nothing in my name then she feels insecure what happens if tomorrow you do the same thing so they enter into an agreement that they I mean like do and do a you know model code of conduct that he will not do this again etc but that he has provided >> but some financial thing also >> yes some provision for that a property or some transfer of an asset or some investment that is made so that is an agreement >> so going back to prenups like you said a lot of HNI are doing it now two
(1:23:45) questions that that come to my head. One is that it's a very delicate thing know that I'm just going to get married to you. You know, I'm in love with you. We're going on holidays together and we're planning our marriage, spending money on our marriage. >> Suddenly, in the middle, I'm like, just one little thing I wanted to ask you, my darling.
(1:24:05) What is it? I want to sign a agreement [laughter] with you. Kind of puts a little, you know, dowses the flames of passion. >> Yeah. >> So, how do how do people do that? And do you advise that because it may help in the future. >> Yeah. So this is a very very typical thing which is there. So we advise them accordingly that it is in the long run better so that it cuts down on everything uh litigation every cost that you may incur every stress that you may get.
(1:24:36) The fear for the woman is more so when suppose there's a there's a couple who come and say we are getting married and we we've agreed and we want to enter into prenup. So whatever your arrangement I will agree. But I tell the lady or whoever the other spouse is that listen please go I'll drop the document please go and take an independent legal opinion don't be guided by what I have done maybe I may be biased so and we write in that clause both parties have taken independent legal opinion before signing this agreement there is no force coercion no undue influence all that
(1:25:05) standard clauses of things which are there now this is as good as an agreement can be >> now do women do it and most cases women do women do it voluntarily or do they do it because of the fear of losing their husband or do they do it because they just want that okay uh that they just they said okay if that's what he wants I want to do it so there could be various reasons why they do it which obviously they are not going to disclose to me >> but if I have to be neutral and fair this is the only thing that I can
(1:25:35) suggest coming back to on a more serious note it is that people are entering into because even you know I have a lot of cl so what do I say clients who come to me and they come to me with their parents or in fact their parents take appointments with me because there is a lot of wealth nowadays we have it for girls >> girls yes I was just going to ask that >> yeah so so there are a lot of parents of girls who are going to get married and sometimes okay the gym trainers which we talking about so two of the cases which
(1:26:00) I had was that they were marrying uh they wanted to get married to a gym trainer now a gym trainer with a girl >> a wealthy girl she falls in love with a gym trainer and she wants to get married to him the father is going to just blow his top and say what's wrong with you and she say you don't know I'm in love etc etc so in these kind of cases also the the fathers want to protect the wealth right >> some of them we tell them to make arrangements in a manner that prior to marriage you ring fence it in a manner
(1:26:30) that it does not hit the divorce court but in some cases we get into this uh also or they're getting married to some some some guy who's an Italian or something whom they don't know any anti-cance and they know that that this family is a rich family from India. The daughter is there and uh we want to get married and she's smitten by him and she wants to do everything.
(1:26:51) So these kind of cases are also there. So we also do prenups for the girls who come from these uh >> well it's very common now. >> Uh I very but quite common okay let me put it that way but more yes if you see the percentage wise it's more the the boys >> and is it in Goa prenups are legal or something >> everywhere? No, there's no there's no question.
(1:27:11) The law is the same everywhere. >> The law is the same. Central law. Central law. >> I want to talk about children a little bit. Um cuz a lot of times divorce comes with children also. How does the court actually decide >> the child custody cases? >> Yeah. The child custody. >> Yeah. So in all cases the courts the the the the guiding principle is the best interest and welfare of the child.
(1:27:30) Now that's a very broad way of putting it. So this is based on various factors like age of the children. Uh so obviously child the law says the child below the age of five has to be with the mother in most cases unless there are exception circumstances after that it doesn't automatically go to the father what is in the best interest and welfare it could be there the law has also evolved what happens if the custody is given to the mother and she gets remarried does she lose the custody so the the supreme court has
(1:27:57) answered in one of the well-known cases of a well-known personality that remarage of a mother if I may use that word uh does not disentitle her to lose the custody unless the person she's getting into is of a questionable character or is a bad influence. But just the fact because the divorce entitles her to get remarried that mean she doesn't mean that she loses the custody and the visitations are different.
(1:28:25) Uh the the custody is also dependent upon the environment and the facts and circumstances and the and the and the surroundings where the child is going to grow up. basically the age and post the age of 11 12 the wishes of the child. >> So these are the different parameters. >> Post 11 12 is the wishes of by 11 10 11 the child has a mind of his own.
(1:28:46) He can be uh he will be able to answer what his really wishes are and and major decisions are taken by both the parties which is at a macro level education classes universities etc. So that there's an involvement and me as a lawyer I mean I I would like to be very clear here me as a lawyer is one person who believes that in a broken relationship the least that you can do as you know as a mature people is to give your child the affection and love of both the >> so many cases where people do not want to give the access or the visitation to
(1:29:28) the father >> which is unless the father is an alcoholic into drugs and all which are which are extreme cases but just because I have an axe to grind I'm using the child I'm the last person to >> is that common >> yes and how right >> and how it's very common because how do I get back at you >> right >> so you know typically mul in a court of law a woman uses a child and I'm talking I'm just making a very general statement >> yeah but you've seen it so much yeah >> yeah and the man uses money so he puts screws on her money right
(1:29:57) >> credit card is withdrawn it's >> money and child, right? When it gets to that ugly stage. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. >> What happens to a child if their parents are going through like a 10-year custody case? >> Yeah. So, that's what it is. I I give you an example. The boy who came was around 2 years old.
(1:30:16) He became 19 who was also entering into >> the child of the parents getting divorced was 2 years older. >> When the father or the mother started, by the time it got done, the child was 19 and he was taking admission in a medical school. What I saw in this case was that a lot of negativity about the father which was given by the mother >> he realized that it's not all true >> and after the age of 14 he just went and started staying with his father.
(1:30:43) >> Mhm. >> You know one thing uh there's there's this guy called Chris Martin of Coldplay and Gunro. >> I know I know we saw them. Yeah. They got they got separated like many years ago and they they had a press release and they called it a conscious uncoupling. >> Yeah. Decoupling. >> Uncoupling. Decoupling.
(1:31:00) And a lot of people laughed at it cuz it was quite funny. >> But basically what they meant was a very clean non messy you know mutually happy divorce. >> Does that happen? >> Yes. Quite a few. See I'll tell you something. uh educated, matured and people who have understood have realized that it is unfortunate that their relationship has not worked.
(1:31:21) They also realize especially if they have children and you we have certain consent terms and you must understand this in where parties say even after divorce and we are separated and the we will have one international holiday as a couple with the child even if we are married or if we are there >> to give that child that one holiday as a family >> that is a level of maturity that people have because they feel our differences are one part of it but this is so it's such a minority most of it Most of them don't get into it. No.
(1:31:52) >> Most of them don't have a clean. Very rare to have a clean divorce. Right. Right. So if a divorce is inevitable, what is the cleanest way to do it? >> By consent, by mediation, by pre-litigation, mediation. Don't go to court. Sit work with go to go to good laws. And good laws means I I mean people who are wanting you are things to be done in a proper manner, not who's going to fuel litigation or take you to court.
(1:32:17) And lastly and more importantly take the advice of all the professionals concerned which could be counselors which could be a child therapist. In fact when there are child custody cases the first thing that I say that is that I'm a lawyer. I can explain to you what is good what is bad based on my experiences as a lawyer but I'm not a qualified or a you know sort of person to decide that.
(1:32:37) So many cases I refer children to good therapist or good child psychologist and take their view. What do what does she he or she feel is good for the child? >> That's very good. >> So that'll kind of bring the spouses out of themselves. >> Yes. And says that listen you guys you can do what you want but this is what we feel is beneficial.
(1:32:57) If both of you love the child as you claim and we sure we know you do then you have to do so much. >> Um a lot of people thrive post divorce. What is the difference between clients who get destroyed post divorce and those who thrive? >> So thrive mul is a state of mind, >> right? >> Okay. Uh what you feel it's a I'll tell you the way it starts when the when the divorce happened as I just told you that I had dinner with one of the guys who just got recently divorced and then I just asked him hey bu how are you feeling about it? So he said relief and
(1:33:30) I'm just giving you verbatim just because it was just something which happened two three days immense peace uh no nagging no questioning and this is a husband so I'm giving no nagging no questioning I can do what I want I can come home when I want maybe at times even indulge in drinks as much as I want pickle ball and what is that what did I say paddle and all that I can do And there's nobody who is going to.
(1:34:03) So there's complete peace, there's complete tranquility and there is a sense of absolutely everything having settled down. >> Right? >> The question that is that this is a immediate reaction. What happens after a year or two is when some people feel the need to have a companion >> whether marriage or no marriage. >> If they find someone Dr.
(1:34:24) Today you have so many options dating site da da da da if they find someone well and if they don't find someone >> the these are the people who come and ask that could you recommend someone >> they come to you >> yes >> they come to you for recommendations >> yes >> amazing >> seriously listen you've done so many divorces you've seen people you've seen what it is there's just someone who's been divorced or like they call the word I don't know whether it's an innocent divorce is a word that is something which is there but do you think there
(1:34:52) are innocent divorces which you are thinking which you think can be there and is there any contact? Of course, they come to me. So, so >> what is an innocent divorce? >> Innocent divorce is the victim of a divorce that he's or she is not responsible. >> So, they they have hearts of gold but they are they are what is the right word? They are the giving ones by divorce. Sullied by divorce.
(1:35:14) >> So, they are the best people to marry basically. >> Yes. Yes. who are not I mean you don't recommend a man who has been a wife abuser or who been a drunker or something but someone whose wife they cheated on him and he agreed for a divorce and he had nothing to do I would like to get introduced to him so yes they do come to me >> what are the three things an individual should look at today before getting married so they never have to come to your office >> so I think as I told you earlier it was respect and uh trust which is the most
(1:35:43) the edifice which I said and but also a very A very critical point is adjustment and you have to adjust and learn to adjust if you have to make it. I'm not asking you to say that compromise on what is things but then ultimately if if both the parties take a stand it's my way or the highway it's going to only lead to disaster.
(1:36:05) [snorts] >> You have been married for decades and you have spent your entire career watching marriages end. What has this work taught you about your own marriage that you could not have learned anywhere else? >> Yes. So I learned from the others mistakes. >> Yes. >> And which I followed there and have the most important thing that in a longstanding relationship like my marriage is over four decades.
(1:36:28) Uh is a space to each other. Again I come back to respect and trust in each other. May not be that not may not be necessarily you are not agreeing on say nine out of 10 things. >> Nine out of 10. Huh? >> Nine out of 10. I'm saying nine out of 10 things you have to shove it under the carpet. You you explode, you blow, you you say whatever it is, it's done. You go ahead.
(1:36:51) Tomorrow is another day. >> Look at the bigger picture. >> You have to look at the big What are you going to lose if you do this? You're going to lose this family structure. You see, ultimately, especially for a woman, and I'm not saying because because I am a professional and a woman. A woman really invests in the marriage.
(1:37:08) >> Okay? I mean, you also you also must have seen around. So it is not that it is just that she leaves the house she comes she your mother becomes my mother your sister becomes as close to me as and and and you know you just do this do you want to just let this all go for what something which >> it has to be really worth it >> worth it and it has to be so extreme that >> that's what I mean yeah yeah like you can't live you literally are dying basically >> so so that is one of the things that we have done and sometimes you have to come
(1:37:38) to this conclusion that we agree to agree to disagree. So if you keep that principle in mind and there are certain thing and the the most important thing at the end of the day I don't know whether it's love romance passion that's something there is basic care for each other like you were just talking that you're 70 and somebody reminds the spouse is reminded listen you've not taken your tablet which is so important you've not had your milk because you need to have that let me go and that's it you've achieved the world cup I would
(1:38:10) say >> in the sense this is What relationships are caring is the most important thing because don't look at it today. It's it's when you are not all there physically, mentally, emotionally where somebody is there for you. >> Yes. >> Isn't that what is important? And isn't that what most of the cases maybe in our generation I don't know the present generation always believed in? The only thing that I will have to say is that when you get married don't do it as a chore like you know after school university after university you do that
(1:38:43) don't do it like this it will have to be a conscious decision when you are prepared and ready for it and not when just because you're 25 >> no when basically when you find the right but the arrangements don't work that way when you I was going to say when you find the right person >> now what is a right person also [laughter] what is a right person because that which I think is right today tomorrow he doesn't become the right person >> which I give you I've given you examples also. So when you're mentally prepared
(1:39:07) that this is what marriage entails and this is what I want to do and I know I'm going to take my chances. I'm going to work positively towards it. Rest you can you'll have to leave it to destiny now. >> So you're saying in a way that you need some majority. So what do you think cuz in India historically people get married very young.
(1:39:24) It's getting a little older but it's still quite young. >> Yeah. >> Especially among a bunch of communities. >> Yeah. >> Have you seen any correlation between younger people getting married and older people getting married? So if you ask me uh and I'm talking about my generation, we all got married when we were just about 20.
(1:39:41) Okay, that's me and I'm sure there are quite a few others just about 1920. Our earlier generation were 14 and 15 as you know. >> So talking about our generation, it helped us to mold ourselves visav and adjust and adapt to the family. Some sometimes you have joined family, sometimes you have individual family.
(1:40:03) visav after 30 32 I'm talking about typically as a girl getting married you are quite opinionated by them so that adjust and I'm not saying I'm not judging it right or wrong I'm just giving you parallels to come to it against 30 31 who are quite opinionated and today's generation is more opinionated so that becomes a little difficult to why should I do it now why should you do it I don't have an answer >> but I think you should do it because that will buy peace so is is it a rational answer? No.
(1:40:32) Is it a rational question? Yes. >> No. So, thank you. Thank you so much, Manandi. >> Thank you. >> I I really enjoyed myself and and yeah, I think people will have a lot of lessons from this. >> Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
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