Death Investigator: What Dead Bodies Reveal About Murder | Barbara Butcher | FO575 Raj Shamani
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Title: Death Investigator: What Dead Bodies Reveal About Murder | Barbara Butcher | FO575 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
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Timestamps -
00:00 - Intro
04:03 - Inside the Mind of a Death Investigator
11:42 - What Does a Death Investigator Look for First at a Crime Scene?
17:00 - Can You Really Determine the Exact Time of Death?
20:28 - How to Move a Body Without Disturbing the Evidence
24:55 - What Can Gunshot Wounds Reveal About a Killer’s Motive?
32:14 - Beyond the Body: The Evidence That Solves a Murder
38:25 - What Happens to the Human Body After Death?
45:02 - What Does Death Actually Smell Like?
47:54 - Can a Dead Body Move on Its Own?
51:56 - Suicide or Murder? How Investigators Tell the Difference
57:48 - How Killers Try to Fool Death Investigators
1:04:09 - Can a Killer Manipulate the Time of Death and Get Away With Murder?
1:11:56 - Can a Body Reveal Whether Someone Died Peacefully or Violently?
1:13:58 - Blood Spatter Analysis: How Bloodstains Reveal What Happened
1:19:56 - How Crime Scene Clues Reveal a Killer’s Relationship With the Victim
1:30:51 - Does Barbara Butcher Believe in Ghosts and Reincarnation?
1:41:10 - The Four Biggest Motives Behind Murder
1:47:43 - Do Certain Neighborhoods Have More Murders?
1:52:02 - The Strange Case of a Man Who Appeared to Die by Suicide
2:03:08 - What the Dead Teach Us About Living a Better Life
2:06:14 - What Is One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow?
2:07:27 - The Personal Cost of Being a Death Investigator
2:08:56 - BTS
2:09:58 - Outro
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In today’s episode, we sit down with Barbara Butcher, a retired death investigator from the NYC Office of Chief Medical Examiner who investigated over 5,500 deaths, including homicides, suicides, accidents and disasters, across two decades.
We talk about what Barbara looks for in the first moments at a death scene, why nobody can tell the exact time of death, and what happens to the body after we die. She shares how she reads gunshot wounds, blood spatter, and ligature marks, and how killers stage murders to look like suicides.
We also talk about the real reasons people kill, why so many murders in America go unsolved, and the booby-trapped suicide scene that almost cost her life. She reveals the emotional weight of working through the aftermath of 9/11, the personal toll of shutting down her feelings, and what the dead teach us about living with gratitude.
Subscribe for more such conversations.
Follow Barbara Butcher:
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Facebook: / barbarabutcherofficialpage
X: https://x.com/OCMEForensics
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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Transcript:
(00:00) a man [music] who had a wife he was crazy about, but he was wildly jealous. And one day they were coming into the apartment building and there was the building manager and she looked at him and said, "Oh, hello." And they went into the house and he went insane. He started screaming. He thought she was flirting.
(00:19) And so he stabbed her [screaming] so many times that there was blood on the ceiling, the walls, the floors. Yeah. He had stabbed her I don't 80 times. There was nothing left to stab. Can >> a dead body move or like make sound? >> It's happened to me. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because even after they're dead, they stole all those gases inside them.
(00:42) Now, there's a story that there was a rookie cop and they said to him, um, you know, you're going to sit and guard this body. And he's sitting there and he's very afraid. And then as the bodies it jerked a little, it moved and then it made a sound like he got so frightened that he shot it twice. Tell me the moment you walk into a death scene.
(01:11) What do you first look at? I don't look at the body first. I stand at the doorway and I take in the totality of the scene. Now I'll start examining the body and look for a stab wound or a gunshot wound. I'll look under the fingernails and see is there flesh or hair or blood because someone was fighting for their life. Now when a dead person lays on the floor like this on their back, the blood settles down through gravity.
(01:36) But [music] if I go in there and see that the his back is all purple and yet his left side has it's like red blood. I know he was originally on his side and then [music] they when he died and then they put him on his back. I know when the body's been moved. There's no accurate specific way to actually find out what time a person died.
(01:56) >> Not unless somebody saw it because in movies you just see that somebody would come out and they tell that this person died XYZ time. >> Lie. It's a lie. >> How do killers fool? >> They can fool us. Tell me three smartest way that somebody has fooled you. >> Now then I'd have to kill you because you know the secrets.
(02:20) >> What's the weirdest object that you've seen that somebody is used for killing? >> Well, what are the biggest mistakes murderers make? >> Thinking that they won't get caught. You've experienced thousands of deaths. What do you think? What's the best way to die? In your sleep. Absolutely. Are there signs that somebody will turn into a killer? I'm excited. I'm nervous.
(02:50) I'm a little bit scared. I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations. And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well.
(03:18) You know that feeling when you need to send just one small thing to a customer or another business? That's when you realize how hard it is to find a reliable transport partner. And most transport options charge you way too much for small goods. That's why I use Porter. Their two wheelers can carry up to 20 kg. And for things that need a little more space and care, Porter scooter is available with the same 20 kg capacity.
(03:46) The best part is that it's affordable and there's no negotiating. What you see on the app is exactly what you pay. So whatever you need to send, Porter makes it simple and stress-free. To know more about our title sponsor, Porter and their services, check out the link in the description below. And I'm very fascinated to do something like this with you because I've never done I've never met a death investigator.
(04:15) [laughter] I'm [gasps] I'm excited. I'm nervous. >> Don't be nervous. >> I'm a little bit scared. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Why? >> I don't know. I just everything you will say I'll have visuals in my head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That scares me. >> Well, I can assure you of one thing. The safest people in the world are dead people.
(04:43) They will not hurt you in any way. However, you're right. Seeing some of the ways they die is absolutely horrible. So, I was going through your work, okay? And I found out that you have investigated more than 5,500 deaths. >> That's right. >> You have spent two decades reading bodies and crime scenes. >> Yeah. >> And you have seen suicides, murders, accidents, personal revenge, disasters up close.
(05:10) >> I have. And then you say that after going through all this work, you've realized that debt tells you the stories which living beings can't. >> That's right. >> Welcome on Figuring Out, Barbara Butcher. It's [laughter] uh >> Thank you so much. I am pleased to be here. >> It's my pleasure.
(05:31) If someone's watching you for the first time and they have no clue what you do. >> Okay, I'll tell you. tell them what is debt investigator and what will people learn by the end of this podcast? >> Okay. A death investigator um in United States anyway we have uh we have two systems coroner system and medical examiner system and each of those systems is charged with investigating deaths in particular violent deaths, suicides, accidents, things like that.
(06:04) and homicides. Of course, we also have to look at natural deaths. So, if a elderly woman dies alone in her apartment, we have to go make sure that nothing bad happened. So, what's the purpose of that? Well, for one thing, it's for justice. >> So, if someone is murdered, we want to know who did it and why, and so that we can catch them.
(06:30) We want to prevent that person from committing any more homicides. So you would think, oh well, why don't you just do an autopsy? The forensic pathologist does an autopsy and in looking at that body, they see the cause of death. So suppose the man on the table has a gunshot wound to the head. Fine. Cause of death is gunshot wound.
(06:54) But what is the manner? Was it a homicide, a suicide, or an accident? That's my job. >> The death investigator goes to the scene and takes in the entire context. What is the room like? What is his life like? Where is the evidence? Is there blood spatter on walls? Are there bullet marks on the ceiling? And what does the body tell me? We could get into that more deeply later, but everything I'm doing there is to find out how did this death arise.
(07:28) So, if I go into a room as I have and seen a young woman clutching an automatic weapon and there's a close contact gunshot wound to her head, the abrasion ring, the gunpowder into the wound, I know it's close contact and if I get a good story from her friends or neighbors like, "Oh my god, I tried to stop her.
(07:55) " Then I know it's likely a suicide. Now, this one case I'm thinking of was terrible. Um, a young woman said to her friend, "I'm going to kill myself. I can't stand it anymore." Her boyfriend left and she was heartbroken. So, the friend said, "Give me that gun." And took it away from her. And the girl said, "No, no, give it back to me.
(08:16) I promise I won't do it." So the woman, her friend, pulled out the chamber and gave it back to her. She didn't realize there was one round of ammunition still in the barrel. So when the girl took it, there was still a bullet and she shot herself self in the head. Now that's a clear suicide. I have an upset witness.
(08:43) I have everything I need to see right in front of me. But then I go to another case out on [snorts] Hston Street in New York and there's a group of young men 17 18 years old and they're shaking. They're so frightened and their friend lies dead on the ground in the middle of the avenue and they said that he had just gotten a new gun. His very first gun.
(09:09) It was a Saturday night special, which is like a 32 revolver, very cheap, flimsy. And that morning he was showing them tricks like a cowboy. He was spinning the gun on his finger and it hit the he it flew off, hit the ground and shot him straight between the eyes. So his first shot was his best shot and his last shot.
(09:36) Now, could you imagine a thing like that? How they could happen? So, it was an accident. Now, of course, we don't really believe that right from the beginning. We think, "No, they're just making this story up." But I saw on the pavement on the sidewalk a little piece of concrete that was chipped and the little dust of it on the on the hammer.
(09:59) So, I knew the gun had hit just that way. And his friends were were crying and shaking. they couldn't make this story up. Um, so I said, "This is definitely an accident." And then about two hours later, a guy came by, a truck driver, and said, "I was going to work this morning and I saw this kid playing with a gun." So that cemented it.
(10:22) But if it's a homicide, now I have to get a whole another set of of evidence of facts of um um Yeah. Now, I'm not just looking to see what is the manner of death. I'm looking to see who did it, when did they do it, why did they do it? And I'll see that in the scene and in the body. So, what I do, I investigate the scene.
(10:48) I work with the police closely, but it's an independent investigation because we might have differences sometimes. You know, they say, "No, that's not a murder barber. Come on. Come on." [laughter] Yes, it is. So, uh, once I gather all that evidence and do all my photographs of the scene, my measurements, I write a report and take it to the forensic pathologist who's going to do the autopsy the next day.
(11:17) Then they're now doing an informed autopsy. >> They say, "Oh, yeah, gunshot wound, manner of death, homicide." And then we, you know, we give the police all the information we've gathered so that they can better investigate and find the person. That's my job. It's It can be fascinating and it can be very daunting. >> Yes. Oh, absolutely. >> Based on what kind of perspective you're looking at from But the moment you walk into a death scene, okay, what do you first look at? like in the first 30 seconds >> what is that you're trying to find out and where do you actually look at where
(12:00) which most of the world would actually ignore it's a very good question I don't look at the body first in fact I stand at the doorway just inside and I take in the totality of the scene the feeling of the room the zeitgeist the atmosphere I want to see what what kind of person is this, what kind of life, what kind of home.
(12:26) Like I said, I want to see how they live. And so, taking in the entire scene and then I'll put on my booties and, you know, tieback covers and all that and go around the perimeter taking my photographs of everything all around. Then I zero in on the body. I do my photographs, the overalls, but I haven't touched it yet.
(12:52) What I wait to do is now crime scene, they're doing fingerprints and things like that. >> I say, "All right, guys. I'm ready." I bring them over now. I'll start examining the body. I'll open the shirt and look for a stab wound or a gunshot wound. I'll look under the fingernails and see is there flesh or hair or blood because someone was fighting for their life.
(13:12) um I will determine the time of death which is an art as much as it is a science. You have the rigam mortise the stiffening of the body >> and that happens over a period of oh eight 8 hours the body becomes more and more stiff. First the small muscles like the jaw and fingers then the larger muscles like the legs.
(13:39) After about 8 to 10 hours, that body is so rigid that if you lifted it up, it would not bend. So if I see someone fully rigid like that, that's about 8 hours ago. >> Now I look at the lividity. That's the settling of the blood. >> When a dead person lays on the floor like this on their back, the blood settles down through gravity and it stays there for a while.
(14:07) And then after about 8 to 10 hours, it becomes fixed like you can't move it. But if I go in there and see that the his back is all purple and yet his left side has it's like red blood, a little bit lighter. I know he was originally on his side and then they when he died and then they put him on his back.
(14:29) I know when a body's been moved. >> So now that takes a certain amount of time. Then I take the body temperature. The body loses about 1 1/2° of temperature every hour uh Fahrenheit. So in a room of the average oh 70 72° I take the temperature of the air then the temperature of the body. Usually a rectal temperature is most accurate.
(14:57) [snorts] And now I divide. So, if the body started out roughly 98 and is now 90, that means they've lost 8° of temperature. Divide by 1.5. >> That's each degree you lose is 1.5 per hour. And now I come out with what does that come out to? 56 hours. Whatever the math is. So, is that enough? No. >> No. >> Because common sense.
(15:29) You have to have common sense. So, one day I'm a brand new investigator and I go into a a room with an elderly old old man has died and his whole family is there and they're so upset. He is the beloved patriarch of this family and they're all crying and I I said, "All right, I'm going to go examine him." And I did.
(15:52) And when I came out, they said, "Could you tell us what time he died because we'd like to have a special church service at that time?" I said, "All right." And I went back in and I just recalculated. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. Three, take away the 7 4* 18, you know. And I came out and I said, "He died right around midnight." [snorts and laughter] No. No. I spoke to him at midnight.
(16:14) I spoke to him at 12:30. I was like, "Oh my god, I forgot the most important question." when was the last time anyone spoke to him alive or saw him alive because these these calculations they have great variability >> great variability it's a lot of interpretation so >> see >> after that I learned ask the right question if there's no one to ask you can also do things like look at the newspapers if the newspapers are on the front of the house not picked up yet that says Saturday Sunday, he probably died Friday. If he had food delivered,
(16:54) there's a receipt on it with the timestamp, right? So, we use common sense. >> So, there's no accurate specific way to actually find out what time a person died. >> Not unless somebody saw it. If we have it on videotape, yes, if someone saw it. Because in movies you just see that hey like somebody would come out and they tell that this person died XYZ time >> lie it's a lie that's why I get very irritated with some shows um some of the true crime shows they they have a do or or even the fictional ones they have a medical examiner who
(17:33) shows up on the scene a forensic pathologist well first of all what did she do leave the autopsy table to come to this death scene? What about her work? She has three cases to do. And she comes in and she looks at the body a couple of times and then she pokes her finger in something and says that looks like a 9 mm.
(17:53) What? What? What did you stick your finger in the hole and measure it? And then they say uh you know dead about I'd say about 4:30ish 4:30 this afternoon. Why was there a bullet hole through his watch and it stopped at 4:30? >> [laughter] >> Right. [snorts] So, the the the shows get it all wrong. Now, my show, The Death Investigator, we're very very careful to do everything and explain everything accurately.
(18:23) There's no magic tricks. So, I've been thinking for years there must be a way to design an app >> that will take body temperature, ambient temperature, pictures of the lividity, estimates of and calculate it all and it says, you know, 11:45 a.m., you know, so far nothing. >> Nothing. There's no like accurate formula.
(18:47) >> No, there isn't. >> It's it's a guess. >> It's a guess. How close can you be? Like how close can you get to accurate time of death just by investigating >> just by using all those factors >> and can you actually probably go to autopsy lab and take blood sample or tissue sample and then actually predict >> that same time >> they've tried >> no >> in fact uh a lot of scientists and researchers have tried using the potassium levels of the eyeball we draw the fluid out and estimate.
(19:23) Did the potassium shift into the cells or into the fluid? No, >> nothing. Okay. >> So, everything is an estimate. And I never say anymore uh 2:00 p.m. I say sometime between noon maybe four. A four. I give you a four window. >> Yeah. >> And even that, you know, can you can be fooled. Now, one thing that fools you is when cops come in and fool around with things.
(19:54) So, sometimes I come into an apartment and it's freezing cold. And I said, "Why is it so cold in here?" "Oh, we opened all the windows because it smelled." I'm like, "Wait a minute, guys. How am I going to figure out body temperature now? You just ruined everything." And they're like, "Well, Barbara, it was hot in here, so it's smelly.
(20:10) " [snorts] So, we have to be very careful with those things. And that's one of the first questions I ask. What has changed since you got here between that time and my time? >> And if they say, well, we opened the windows, we moved the body. Oh, no, no, no, no. >> Then the whole math is gone. >> It's then it's all messed up.
(20:28) >> And how do you make sure like to roll a body to investigate without even ruining it? Without ruining my evidence? It's not easy. Now, first of all, I don't want to strip the clothes off cuz sometimes there there's evidence on the clothing you don't want to lose. For instance, I had a man who was shot on the street and the guy who shot him said, "No, he was running toward me and I shot him.
(20:59) " And then when I look at his jacket, the collar has a little bit of a bullet. The bullet came through the jacket. But then I look on his arm. There's a bullet hole here. I'm like, "Wait a second. Let me line these up." >> And here's what happened. He was shot. He was going like this. It went through here, through here, past the collar, and into his neck.
(21:27) And I could line it up perfectly. So, no, he wasn't coming at you. He was going like this. Please. No. >> Right. So, so that's very important. Don't mess up your evidence. Now, I do need to see their back, obviously, so I'm careful not to mess up the clothes. Um, I'm also careful about bullets that might pop out. >> Sometimes you turn a body and there's a bullet in the hole in the front and at the back it's just at the edge of the skin and you turn it over and it pops out. That's not good.
(21:59) Um, so when I turn it, it's just very, very gently and I don't remove the clothes. is I just peek up underneath. When we get them in the autopsy room, I can tell a lot more. >> But so why would I want to see the gunshot wound? Why do I need to see that? >> Well, if you think about the physics of bullets, ballistics, when the bullet goes through the flesh, it leaves a little abrasion ring.
(22:27) You know, the skin stretches inward. It's very flexible. So, as the bullet goes in, it pulls the skin and makes a little abrasion, right? A little ring. Now, if it's a straight-on shot, it'll be perfectly circular. If the person is shot from up here as they're standing, it's going to have an angle where the abrasion ring will be greater at the top or at the bottom, meaning shot from below, shot from above, or shot from the side.
(22:59) So, if you're really careful with this and you look for the bullet impact marks on the walls, I can tell you where the shooter was standing and I can tell you the position of the victim. But it's very important to know where was that shooter. If they were right up close, then I'll see gunpowder in the wound.
(23:20) I'll see the the fouling, which is the greasy smoke that comes out of the barrel. So if I see the little stipples of gunpowder burned into the face, I know it was about oh maybe 8 in 10 in something like that. Any further and it falls to the ground. But now if I see I don't see any stippling gunpowder, but I see the greasy smoke around it.
(23:45) I know they were standing back just a little, but they were still quite close. So I can tell you so many things just by looking at that wound. >> Interesting. I want you to demonstrate on me. >> How can you roll a body without actually disturbing the evidence? Can you do that a little body demonstration? I just lay down.
(24:05) >> Yeah. Now if a person is is stiff, it's easier. But see, that's why I tell you be dead weight. Totally relaxed. Okay. Dead weight. Nice and easy. Just breathe deeply. So what I do in order to turn a person over [snorts] carefully place this leg over that one. Okay. And then this arm at the shoulder just like that.
(24:30) Now all I have to do two fingers under the hips and the shoulder [clears throat] and he rolls right over. You see I do it gently so that there's no evidence lost. I don't move any clothing, anything like that. Goes right over. Now I'll examine here under the shirt. Perhaps I'll check the legs if there's any trauma.
(24:51) But it's easy, right? >> So even a small woman can roll over a heavy man. >> The this question because you said someone you can look at a bullet mark and find out whether it was hit from close or far, right? >> Yeah. Can you also tell the relationship or the kind of motive behind death just by the distance of the shoot? >> H to a certain extent. Yes.
(25:23) >> So if it's a contact wound, then we know you know either suicide or or execution style. you come up to someone, put the gun against their head, you're going to get everything I just spoke about, but the gunpowder will be inside the wound and there'll be like a stamp. Um, like if a gun barrel has a little notch at the top, I'll see that because the bang hits the skin, now I know what it was.
(25:52) And this happened in a case I did on my show, uh, the Carnegie Delhi massacre. the the guy who was arrested said, "Oh, no. It went off accidentally. I was holding the gun and I was shaking so bad and I got nervous and it went off." No, it didn't. You lying dog. I know because what I see on the head, I see the contact. You were perfectly steady.
(26:17) So, don't cry to me. >> I'm very harsh about this. [laughter] But have you ever seen that someone who's very close and they're closely related, do they shoot from close or do they shoot from far? Because if sometimes if it's revenge or like a business killing or like a drug killing that usually it's very close.
(26:38) It's not from far away because they want to make sure that the person is dead. >> Yeah. I mean a sniper is very impersonal. M >> so I know it might have been far off but I can't say how far because after just let's say four or 5 ft away now there's nothing for me to see. So he could be 5t or 100 yards with a good sniper bullet but I will notice something about the book bullet.
(27:07) It will have to be a rifled a rifle or automatic weapon kind of thing. Um so yeah that's an interesting thing for me. There are basically two kinds of homicide. One is business and the other is um personal personal and there's also the ones that are done for fun too like serial killers but that's another category.
(27:32) [gasps] I don't even like speaking or thinking about it. However, if it's a business killing it's very efficient. You walk in, shoot him in the head, and walk away. There's no DNA, there's no contact, there's nothing. No fingerprints even. It's business. Now, if I see that the body is stabbed multiple times, punched, beaten, especially at the face, um, beaten, stabbed, strangled, shot.
(28:02) That's so personal. That's killing of rage. So, I know it's someone who knows them. Um, and someone who has such huge anger toward this person. Could be revenge. Uh, could be love. And one of the most brutal killings I ever saw was a man who had a wife he was crazy about. She was a pretty little woman, all nice little jewelry, and, you know, she dressed up nicely.
(28:35) I saw pictures of her in the house and he loved her insanely but he was wildly jealous. And one day they were coming into the apartment building and there was the building manager, the super was in the hallway and she looked at him and said, "Oh, hello." Nodded at him and they went into the house and he went insane. He started screaming.
(28:56) The neighbors could hear, "Why are you talking to him?" He thought she was flirting with the building guy. And so this is the saddest thing. He stabbed her so many times that there was blood on the ceiling, the walls, the floors. Yeah. Just because she talked, nothing else. >> Yes. Because he was so jealous to him in that one incident.
(29:20) After that one incident, >> that's it. That's it. He was always insanely jealous and watched her all the time. But all the neighbors, they said, "Oh, he loved her insanely. He worshiped her." Well, when something happened, when he saw her look at another man, he went psychotic. He suddenly saw, "I'm losing her." And he lost his mind. And he stabbed her.
(29:46) The broom was horrible. It was horrible. It was just blood everywhere. And this poor little woman, all she did was say hello. And the guy jumped out a window. It was only the second story. And we got blood hounds who tracked to her blood and they caught him in the park up in Inwood um you know just running through with the the blood hounds that the the what we call them the actually not blood hounds anymore they're German shepherds but they're you know they're police dogs and they um they found him very quickly because he
(30:20) was covered in her blood. So that gets me so confused. I've loved people pretty strongly, but never like [laughter] that. >> That's not love. That's obsession. That's psychotic behavior. >> Yeah. It's obsession. It's not really love. It's completely >> He didn't kill her just by like shooting her. >> No, no, no.
(30:46) He wanted to punish her for breaking his heart. His heart was probably broken when he somehow the way he saw it in his psychosis, in his insanity, was that that was her lover. and and she was leaving him and the pain and the fear was so great that he had to destroy her. Not just kill her but destroy her. >> And did he tell tell this that she he wanted to destroy and what all did he do >> when they caught him? He said yeah I just >> what did he do like in you? >> Oh how he killed her? Oh he stabbed her so many times and you know when you stab
(31:21) the corateed arteries or cut them the blood sprays it's high pressure. It sprays up onto the walls. And then if you keep stabbing someone, every time you go in, you hit blood and when you pull the knife back, the blood flings or casts off the knife and lands on the walls or even the ceiling. So he had stabbed her, I don't know, 80 times, something so ridiculous there was nothing left to stab.
(31:51) So the it it was just the bloodiest scene I've ever seen in my life. And the poor woman um I hope she died very quickly because this was just But he told the police she looked at the building super. I knew she was having an affair with him. They're like what? So of course you know we we'll get to this mindset of serial killers and things in a while.
(32:20) So when you're at the crime scene, other than the body, what is the most important thing? The witnesses. The witnesses, sometimes they lie, sometimes they tell the truth, sometimes they exaggerate, but most times you can get a straight story out of someone because they're in shock. If they come into the room and see their brother laying dead on the floor, it's like, my god.
(32:49) And now if the police ask them, "What did you hear?" I don't know. I thought he was jumping on the floor. I heard something loud. Um, what time was this? Well, it was 2:00 and I know because I was my my new show just started on the TV. Those things help. The body tells to me, the body doesn't lie. The body tells you what is there.
(33:14) Then the scene, of course. Was the Was the uh room ransacked? Were they looking for something to steal, jewelry or money? Or was it a fake crime scene, which I see a lot. >> What do you mean by fake crime scene? >> Well, they want to make it look like it was burglars coming in to steal. So, they'll pull all the drawers out of the bureaus and chests, and maybe they'll throw some clothes around, but it looks fake.
(33:44) We call it a staged crime scene because they make it look like it was a robbery, but no, it isn't. >> Oh, somebody killed it inside. >> Yeah. Somebody just came in and killed them and said, "I'll make this look like robbers." So sometimes um and the best way you can tell that is you see the room, all the things thrown around, but then there's a box in one of the drawers and there's a bracelet in it, a gold bracelet.
(34:07) So why didn't he take that? Mhm. >> I had one like that recently where um there was something like I think it was $16,000 in a coat jack in a coat pocket and all they they went through and they just opened the drawers and threw some clothes around to make it look like a burglary. They didn't even take the money. So that's pretty damn stupid.
(34:32) Um, you know, you see in the movies all these very brilliant criminals who pull off these, you know, uh, heists. They rob a casino or a bank or whatever. Um, but people who come in to murder somebody, they're not very bright. >> So, they might know a couple of things to do. Wipe off my fingerprints, things like that.
(34:54) Don't eat any food because I'll leave DNA behind. [laughter] [gasps] [sighs] Oh god. >> What if you have to point out let's say three things, three specific things without the body, which is a must when you enter a crime scene. You want to make a list that these are three things I will watch. >> Mhm. [clears throat] Beside the body, besides what's on the body, >> which will tell you a lot about how the person lived and how a person died.
(35:19) >> Okay. Well, number one is evidence of human contact. So DNA and fingerprints. So, how do I know what's DNA and what's fingerprints? Well, um, suppose we have a bloody scene. Person's been killed and there's blood all around. Now, I walk down the hallway toward the bathroom and I see some blood drops on the floor.
(35:45) That's not from the body. How did they get there? So when when a perpetrator stabs someone, very often they cut themselves because as you push the knife down like this, sometimes it hits bone and it goes upward and cuts your hand. See? So now you have to go to the bathroom and wash it off and, you know, wrap it up in a band-aid, >> but you're going to leave one little drop of blood on the floor.
(36:14) And we just did a case like that in my show. One drop of blood. Isn't that amazing? But you have to look for these things. You can't walk in and say, "Oh, yeah. Guy stabbed. That's that. All right." No. I have to go throughout the house. I have to know everything, especially any point of human contact. So, if I see a telephone, I know crime scene is going to want to sw, you know, check that for fingerprints.
(36:42) The door knob, and they're very careful about doorork knobs, right? They might wear a glove or use a towel to open it. But they forget that when they come in, they touched the door sill as they pushed it open, not touching the knob, but they're touching the doors. So that's where we look for prints. So human contact number one, DNA >> and fingerprints.
(37:08) Um, next is [gasps] I would say [sighs] the appearance of the house as to whether or not it was something that was a real burglary where things are missing or a fake stage scene. And in that house, what does that person have that may have been important? So suppose there's a scientist working on a very important project for the government and we come in and we see that he's been shot and we don't see any prints anywhere. Nothing.
(37:46) But his computer's missing. All scientists have at least one computer, right? If that computer is missing, then I know this was a a business job. This was something high level. This is something where they wanted to get some piece of information that he had. >> So, it's not just what's there that you're looking for.
(38:11) It's what's not there. >> There you go. Just This should actually be a class. We should record this and use it to teach people. >> Giving you all my secrets. [laughter] >> I want to ask you for more secrets. Mhm. >> How do you know actually what happens once once the on somebody dies like minute after minute what happens to the body? How does it decay? >> What happens 6 hours later, 24 hours later, what happens to the body? >> Good question.
(38:43) Um, when death is immediate, like uh let's say a gunshot to the head through and through, immediately dead, fall to the ground, >> they will not really bleed that much, but they will leak because they died instantly. The heart is no longer pumping out blood. So, it'll leak from the head.
(39:05) There'll be a good amount around them. Um and then as that blood leaves there are things that happen inside us that [sighs] I guess the best it's like being digested by our own bodies. We have enzymes inside us and as the body dies those enzymes just digest what's there the cell walls and so fluids begin to leak out from the nose. Um so now we have blood we have fluids now >> is that what liver mortis is? No, that's what that's just the ordinary process of a dead body starts to digest itself and to decompose so it can return to the
(39:52) earth and you [clears throat] know which is a very good idea. So as that's happening there are bacteria in our gut and the abdomen and the intestines that normally our body keeps in check. They don't grow too much, but they grow just enough so that they can help us with digestion. When they're not when now they're free to do whatever they want, they start digesting, eating up the internal the internal organs of the body.
(40:24) And when they do that, it causes gases to form. So in the first let's say 1 hour we get the little bit of fluid leaking we get the oozing of blood and now we get the digestion of the body and as that happens the gases build up and over a period of time let's say well it depends on the weather too if it's very hot it goes faster if it's cold it's like refrigeration slows the bacteria down so the gases form and the body begins to swell.
(41:01) And it's not a pretty thing, okay? In fact, it's horrifying. As the abdomen swells, the eyelid swells, anything that's soft in the body, the gases will start to come. Then the skin will begin to rot. Okay? Now, we have not just blood and this the inner fluids, the plasmas. Now we have green horrible things. And this is the point where the smell is so overwhelmingly bad.
(41:37) There is no way I can describe it. I have tried. There is nothing that describes that smell. So horrible. And that's to me that's like a signal like stay away. [laughter] You know it's bad things here. Like a warning almost. Um so then the body goes through all these it's like wet decomposition. On the other hand suppose you die in a desert you bleed a little bit but the fluids leak out? No.
(42:08) In fact the bacteria start doing their little actions. They start digesting things but then they get so dried out from the hot dry sun that they can't even work anymore. There's no fluids for them. So now the body shrinks down. All the water leaves it and we're about 60% water. So the water leaves it and then little animals come and they eat whatever's left.
(42:34) So now what do you have? A skeleton with some leathery like skin over it. So that's out in the desert more. But I did have a case on the lower east side here. Do you know New York? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So back in the 70s and 80s, early 90s, we had squat buildings. They were abandoned. No one wanted them. So people would go in and live there.
(42:58) They'd steal electricity from the street lights and they'd go out and get food and live in these little places. And uh we came upon a man um someone wanted to buy the building. They're looking in the room and there's a man laying on the bed, but he's just a skeleton with a little bit of raggedy clothing and like it looked like leaves, like autumn leaves, [gasps] but it was more like leather.
(43:25) And I'm looking at him and I noticed that all his internal organs are gone. And I said to the police officer, "Well, that's interesting. Why do you think they're completely gone? We still have skin." He said, "Well, because it's very cold here. There's no heat. So, the rats burrowed inside and ate up all the organs so they could stay warm in there.
(43:47) Wow. So, what we had left is just skin and bones. Now, can I tell how long he was there? All I can say is a long time, but I can't tell you if that was 3 weeks or five months. So, that's what happens to a body. the bo I believe that the body wants to return to the earth as an organic substance. Um I personally would like to be buried and become a tree.
(44:21) There are certain cemeteries I've heard about and they dig a hole, put you in a burlap sack and drop you in like crumbled up, not too much space and they plant a very nice tree over you. I would love to go like that. We did that with our dog. >> Did you? Oh, that's so nice. >> There's a tree and every time we look at that tree, we just miss him.
(44:43) >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and we feel like there's a belief that he's there. >> Oh, he is. He's in that tree. Isn't that a wonderful thing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd love it if people came by and sat by my tree, you know, [laughter] had picnics, you know, keep me company. >> [laughter] >> See, you said something that you can't describe how that smells.
(45:08) If you have to, let's say try. What does death smell like? H regular death just, you know, not rotted like a fairly fresh body. It just smells kind of earthy, organic, warm, like an old grandma. You know, when their skin is just kind of soft and their bodies are just kind of little and they smell a certain way, like kind of stale, it's just the smell of a human being, but without any hormones, without anything like that.
(45:44) But then when they rot, when they decompose, let's see if you took feces, dog and human, put them in a blender, added strawberry ice cream, honey, garlic. H what else? Rotten ground from the woods cuz there's an earthy smell, too. like, you know, decomposed leaves. Put that in there, blend it up, and smell that.
(46:19) It won't smell anything near as bad as a decomposed body. >> That was quite accurate. I [laughter] I could somehow I could sniff it for no reason. >> It's funny, isn't it? But it's true. Even as bad as that would be, it's still not as bad as a rotting decomposed body. Um, you know, I worked in Thailand after the tsunami, >> the Christmas tsunami of 200, what was it, 2004, >> and um they as they recovered bodies, you know, they just they took them to the temples and they just lined everyone up on the ground and in the hot sun and the humidity was god awful. Um, those bodies
(47:05) just decomposed and the smell was You know, you you learn to breathe differently. It's like [clears throat] little gasps through your mouth because you don't [laughter] want to. And there's nothing you can do to stop it. Some people say, "Oh, use Vix Vapor Rub or menthol. Put it under your nose." No, that makes you hate the smell of menthol.
(47:26) >> Oh, yeah. >> There's nothing you can do. So, we smelled that for a long time. Um, they even tried to use dry ice to put all over the bodies, but that made it worse because now they were wet. Um, but I have a picture of that is ghostly. Just ghostly. Really awful. That was a very, very, very tragic thing.
(47:51) Um, yeah, it's hard to get out of my mind. >> Yeah. Can Can a dead body move or like make sounds or have its eyes partly open or feels like it's breathing? >> It's happened to me. It's very scary. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because even after they're dead, really dead, um there's still all those gases inside them.
(48:18) So, I was called to the scene where they had a um a cargo van >> full of junk and in the back was a man who was dead, big, heavy man. And I climbed through the junk. I poked my way in and I found him and he was decomposing. It was awful. And as I went to I moved him till I could see him and he went and it was the gases escaping through his throat.
(48:48) But I screamed and I ran out of the van and I jumped into the arms of a police officer who was laughing like hell. He said, "What happened, Barbara? Did he come alive?" I said, "But he's he groaned at me." [laughter] Actually, he like that. I was never so scared in my life. Now, there's a story, which I think is probably not really true, but police have been telling it for many years, that there was a rookie cop, brand new on the job, >> and they said to him, um, you know, you're going to sit and guard this body until Barbara, the investigator, gets
(49:21) here, and he's sitting there, and he's very afraid, very afraid. It's a little studio apartment. It's right there in front of him. And then as the body starts to go like that, it jerked a little. I'm not sure why. Like maybe the rigger mortise. I don't know, but it m he said it moved and then it made a sound like uh the gas.
(49:48) He got so frightened that he shot it twice. He thought it was like a zombie and he actually shot the dead body. [snorts] So what did they do? Well, of course they took him off the police department. He didn't have the kind of, you know, stomach that you need for this business. But can you imagine the fear? >> Yeah. >> And then there was one that came alive.
(50:14) Uh, one of the guys I worked with, Kenny, he went to the scene of a woman who had taken pills to commit suicide. She's laying on the floor and you know the ambulance had already come pronounced her dead and she's just laying there very pale dead and he started examining her opened her shirt and was looking at her mouth and she popped her eyes open she was actually still alive.
(50:45) What happened is her heart rate, she took Valium, I think it was her heart rate rate got so slow, so very very slow. And the ambulance guys were probably in a hurry. >> They were like, "Oh, they checked the pulse. I don't feel anything." Pulse was just too hard to feel because her heart was barely beating and she was barely breathing.
(51:08) So, poor Kenny, he almost peed himself. I mean, I think he actually did, but he just didn't want to tell us, [laughter] you know, he jumped back and she was actually alive. So, they called the ambulance back again and and Kenny said, "What happened, guys?" You know, like, "You couldn't do it right the first time. Tell me now that she's dead.
(51:29) " They said, "No, she's alive." They ran her to the hospital and tried to save her, but then she died the next day. But can you imagine alive, dead, alive? Poor Kenny. He was so traumatized from that. >> But they couldn't save her. >> No, though she was too far gone. She was really in a coma. Um the eyes popping open was probably more of a reflex than anything.
(51:54) But she was alive when he moved her. Sad, huh? And how do you know that it whether it's a suicide or a homicide? Somebody choked someone to death. Somebody and then hanged them to make it look like it's suicide. Like how do you know the differences between a murder and a suicide? There must be >> well few signs. >> The best example is hanging.
(52:18) We could use that to demonstrate. Um when people hang themselves, they don't really need to stand up on a chair and jump off. That's not how it works. Uh you know, it's not high enough. It's not going to break your neck. But the thing about hanging is that or or strangulation with with hands. If you put someone, let's say like the suicide of Loren, what was her name? MC Jagger's girlfriend.
(52:54) All she did was tie a scarf around her neck, kneel on the floor, and attach the scarf to the doorork knob. She had to just lean forward. And what it did is it compressed the veins, the the big jugular veins here. They're very soft. If you strangle someone and cut off the airway, it's horrible death. You can't get any air. It's painful.
(53:19) If you cut off the corateed arteries, which are strong, the person will pass out. They won't have any air and they'll die. But if you just compress the jugular veins, very soft, just enough to close them. Now you keep getting air, you keep getting blood in your head, but it can't get out.
(53:40) So it builds up and up and it actually feels good as they black out. And we know this because people do it as a sexual play. Mhm. I won't tell you how because I don't ever want [laughter] you to think about this, but yes, that's how people do. Now >> like the blackout they do it for some pleasure. >> Yes.
(54:02) Yes. Because it makes your head go like wow wow wow. >> Yeah. >> And if you do it long enough then you can die. >> Yeah. If you for you you know what they usually do this is called autoerotic asphyxiation. >> What do you what is it called? >> Autoerotic asphyxiation. You smother yourself during masturbation or sex with somebody.
(54:22) Um, what they usually do is they'll put something around their neck and they'll tie it around their finger so that when they pass out the finger, the hand drops and the ligature opens up. But it doesn't always work. And there I come over. Oh, hello. He's got pictures of, you know, naked women and and lubricants and things and he's hanging. And everyone says, "Oh, no.
(54:48) It's a suicide." No, it's not. It was a bad boy game. >> See, it was an accident. >> Yeah, it was an accident. He was having a good time with it and he died. >> And is it a like is it a big thing? Like a lot of people do this. >> Um kind of a lot. Yeah. A lot of famous people have died that way >> that they choke themselves to the point that they they blackout.
(55:12) >> Yeah. And then when they pass out, you know, it loosens. That does not always work. it gets stuck and then you just black out and next thing you know you're dead. Now, how about a murder? What happens is they're either going to use their hands or a liature. So, if they use their hands, you'll see prints, bruising all over the neck, and you can even tell the size of their hands.
(55:40) If they use a liature like let's say a an extension cord, an electric wire, it's usual that they'll go behind the victim, put the ligature around, cross it over, and pull upwards like this. So now I see the mark. The mark of the wire is here, goes up, [snorts] crosses over in the back, leaving a blank part in the skin, and it's very deep because they're pulling hard.
(56:08) That's a homicide. Now, suppose they did that and then they hanged them to make it look like a suicide. Well, it's very hard to lift a dead body, you know. Um, usually takes two people to do that, but if it's a little small person, maybe they could. So, they're already dead. You tie a noose around their neck, throw it over the pipe, haul them up, tie it off.
(56:37) But now what did you forget the positioning? When you do that with someone, it usually goes the rope will go up this way, right? But no, you look on the neck and you see the marks of ligature strangulation at the back. So there are no secrets from me. I can tell what you did. >> And maybe there are two different there are two signs as well. Sure.
(57:02) There could be >> because it would be very difficult to accurately just give a sign at like mark at the exact position where you've killed them. >> Sure. >> Would it be? >> Yeah. Exactly. You you you know there's a mark here, but now you use a rope cuz it's stronger. Not a little scarf. No. >> Or not a piece of little wire.
(57:20) You got to get them up there. You see? So I have only known in my personal cases one where um a handyman strangled a woman with a you know he choked her with a liature and then hanged her >> but she was a small woman he was a big man and it was obvious right from the beginning she did not die by hanging she died by being strangled very sad but how do killers fool they can fool Yes, they do all the time.
(57:54) >> Tell me three smartest way that somebody has fooled you. >> Now then I'd have to kill you because you know the secrets. [laughter] >> Tell me the ones which are out there. >> Okay. The ones that are >> Don't tell me the one which can be used. [laughter] >> Okay. No, I won't do that. I won't do that. >> Yeah.
(58:12) I don't want people to have random ideas. >> Yeah. >> Tell me the ones you you've caught in it. Like you have caught it but it was difficult. >> Let's see. Oh, well, let me see. He got away with that one, >> you know. I can't think of anything except the robbery, you know, ransacking and making it staging a crime scene. [gasps] >> However, oh, oh, wait a minute.
(58:41) When they make it look like there was a sexual assault. Okay. >> M >> so if we come in and see that a woman or a man has been sexually assaulted, there are signs obviously, you know, it's very traumatic. But if a person, let's say a woman is laying on the floor and it appears that she's like her arms are out, legs are out, she's naked, and so this perpetrator wants to make it look like it's a sexual assault, but the perpetrator is a woman.
(59:15) Mhm. Now, when you come in and it looks like someone's been raped, you're thinking man, right? >> Suppose it was a woman that came in, strangled the victim, laid her out, stripped the clothes, and made it look like rape. Then you're thinking of a man. See? But now, fortunately, most women do not kill like that.
(59:44) women who kill. It's either someone attacking their children, their husband who has been beating them for years. Um, you know, it's more personal. >> Is it rare that a woman is killing other women? Another woman. >> Oh, sure. Sure. >> It's not very common. >> I've never No, not at all. Not common at all. >> A man killing another man is common because of business, >> because of revenge, because of hierarchy, because of >> Yeah.
(1:00:11) >> cheating and all of that. Sure. Business business cheating. Um 80% >> women's not killing like women are not killing another women because of let's say cheating scandal with her husband or something. >> I've heard of it but I've never seen it. No, I've seen women kill their husbands or have him killed. I've seen women when we know some the woman who killed her little children in a psychotic episode of postpartum psychosis.
(1:00:44) Um, so women can kill children. Yes, they kill men. I can't think of another case. I've never seen one where a woman killed a woman. [snorts] Um, >> interesting. Why? Why do you think so? >> Well, the main reason might be, suppose you loved your husband, very happy, and a woman came in and seduced him and took him away.
(1:01:08) Who should you kill? The woman or your husband? your husband. Of course, >> no one but >> Yeah. No. Yes. Thank you. [laughter] I forgot that part. No one. Please don't kill anybody. We're going to catch you >> and you're going to be punished for life. >> In your head, both. >> Yeah. >> In reality, no one. >> Yeah.
(1:01:28) So, um yeah, that if that's the case, if they're so angry and so hurt, they're going to kill the husband. >> And you know, God, I've got two cases like that we talked about. Well, you'll see them in my show, but uh yeah, where the woman really got revenge. >> So, you think first of they try to stage a sexual assault.
(1:01:49) That's how they try to fool. >> Sure. >> That's the second way of fooling. >> Um faking a hanging. Oh, wait a second. There is something else. Altering the time of death. A man was known as a hustler. Um he had a little studio apartment and men used to come in and have sex with him and he'd get paid and he was popular so there was a lot of business.
(1:02:12) >> Hustler as in like a >> popular as in like a lot of people came to be with him and paid money. >> Hustler. >> Hustler. Oh yeah. Hustler. A man. >> A hustler is a man who will pick up other men for money. It's a form of prostitution of sex work. Um, and usually these so-called hustlers are men who say they are straight >> but they just want to mess around, try something different.
(1:02:43) And then sometimes when they see the victim and they see the hustler and they're giving him money, the hustler's g I mean the victim is giving the hustler money and they're looking in his eyes and suddenly a hatred comes over him. He has horrible disgust for what he's just done. He can't admit that he has homosexual urges. He can't.
(1:03:10) It would be too awful >> because a straight man is going to this guy. The straight man can't actually >> Exactly. >> accept it. >> That's right. He can't accept what he just did. So what does he do? He beats in the face of the guy who he paid because he doesn't want him looking at him. It's called internalized homophobia or homophobic rage.
(1:03:33) >> When he do it by his own will and concern, >> I know, but there's something psychotic about them. I've got a couple of these and it's very sad. In fact, when I walk into an apartment and it's extremely well decorated, and you know, the victim may be on the floor, nicely dressed, a beautiful home, and then I see that his face has been bashed in with a a vase or something or a baseball bat, and he's dead, that's first thing I think of is who did he meet in a bar? Who did he pay for sex today? Um, and usually it's true. So this guy,
(1:04:12) he had his customers and the neighbors said, you know, there were always people in out about every two hours >> and he worked a lot. And we came there because there was a fire in the room in the apartment. The fire department got there, they saw it was very smoky. There was flames around the bed on a bureau.
(1:04:31) They put it out and I came in. Laying on the bed is a man who is um has been obviously stabbed. You know, his face has been beaten. He's been stabbed in the chest. And um the reason the fire started is that the bureau at the foot of the bed had big candles on it and little candles and they were all lit and they were the drawers were opened and the candles were placed at the edge of the drawer so that as they melted down eventually it was set fire to the close.
(1:05:07) So now, how can I establish the time of death? If I can get a reasonable estimate of time of death, we know who was there >> because there's videos in the hallway, right? >> So, who was it? >> There were two guys who came between noon and 4. Which one is it? I don't know. Because now he's been smoked.
(1:05:34) The temperature is all wrong. I don't know what time he died. This person, this perpetrator, set it up very cleverly so that he'd stab him and then he set fires. Yeah. >> But just enough so that he could get out safely. And they were slow fires. They were smoky. >> So when I got the man out in the hall to examine him, his skin was like yellow, leathery because the heat was slow.
(1:06:04) It like baked the skin. Um, I couldn't tell rigger mortise because the firemen had moved him and you know, so that breaks it up. Um, I couldn't tell algamortis because he had been rolled all around and every part of him was covered in smoke and it was very a bit of early decomposition which is skin slippage. Sometimes after you die the skin becomes loose and if you pull it, it will actually come off.
(1:06:33) So, I saw on his lower legs that the skin had come off. Was that because he was there a long time? No, it's because the firemen pulled him out by his legs and their rough gloves made the cooked skin come off. So, I couldn't tell what time he died. Nobody could. >> And were you able to catch the guy? >> No.
(1:07:01) No. In this country, about 60% of homicides are solved. >> Only 60. >> Only 60%. Now, >> 40% of >> killers, they're out there. >> And nobody is able to catch them. >> That's right. >> In the most powerful country in the world. >> That's right. This most powerful country has very uneven resources. In New York City, it's hard not to get caught.
(1:07:27) You're going to get caught because we have everything. We have the best DNA labs, the best detectives, the best, you know, crime scene unit. >> Yeah. There's surveillance, there's a bunch of things. >> Right. Right. Now, when you go out to the Wisconsin, the Dakotas, where they don't have maybe they only have one forensic pathologist for the state or the county. In New York, we have 15.
(1:07:50) We have 45 investigators. see out in the country in order to get DNA done they have to have a budget for it. They have to send it all to a state lab. Um and they don't have the experience, you know, if they get Oh, I I was working with one guy the other day who's only had one homicide in nine years and he's a homicide detective.
(1:08:14) I said, "What else do you do?" He said, "Well, you know, I help out." So, [laughter] can you imagine one homicide in nine years? I've got 680 in 10 years, you know. So, um it's pretty it it's it's very uneven. So, it's it's kind of easy. If you do it out in the desert, out in the the plains, you're going to have a better chance of getting away with it.
(1:08:36) Not in New York, not in Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles. Nah, >> no. >> No, I mean, we still don't get all of them. >> Yeah. I was just going to point out like some shootings and things which have happened >> Yeah. in California and New York as well. >> Sure. >> And they've not been caught. Nobody know where. Yeah.
(1:08:58) No, nobody has any clue where >> one single clue. Right. Like >> And they've done it open out there in public and nobody knows. >> That's right. They walked down the street, shot somebody, they drove away. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> How is that possible? >> You know, even in New York, that happens. A drive by shooting. These kids in gangs, you know, they have nothing. So they take risks, bad risks.
(1:09:25) [gasps] They think, I want to live the life of a drug dealer. Even if I die by 30, at least I'll have a car, clothes, diamonds, money, girls. That's not how it works. Usually get killed pretty quickly. But these guys, you know, they'll get a couple of teenagers in a car. They'll drive past a a place where there's all people hanging around and they're looking for someone who's their enemy and they shoot into the crowd and they shoot a couple of people cuz they're not very good at shooting and they shoot people and they
(1:09:56) kill them and they drive away and in the shock and horror not everybody knows to look for the license plate and sometimes that's a stolen car. You see? So those sometimes don't get solved. However, now in New York, we not only have video cameras everywhere. We also have something um I'm not even sure what they call it, but if a gunshot is heard, it alerts the police department.
(1:10:25) A gunshot has a very particular sound. >> And I know this because it happened to me. I was living up in Harlem and I was walking across the street at to the subway and suddenly ping I heard the crack of gunfire and the bullets hit the building corner in front of me passed about 10 ft in front of my eyes and I was like and I hit the ground right and another [clears throat] woman was there and I yell hit the ground and we both got down on the ground we crawled toward the subway I was furious I had a nice outfit on. And there was
(1:11:02) three gunshots, right? Two of them hit the building. The other one, no one was killed. But I was so angry. I called the police department. What the hell was that? And they said, "Well, you know how these gangs are. They start shooting at each other, but it wasn't They weren't aiming at you.
(1:11:19) " So I said, "Wait a minute. I don't care. I don't care if no one was killed. They were still firing a gun and there's a playground just half a block away." So they're like, "Oh, no, no. We're going to find them. We'll get them on the video cameras." But my god. So, but here's the thing. Police responded immediately.
(1:11:36) I didn't even have to dial 911. >> Soon as the ping ping ping, they hear it. They have sensors. Maybe they called them listeners. I don't know. >> That's a good thing. >> Yeah. But police in New York have great technology. Really good. So, don't come over here to kill anybody. Anybody [laughter] not worth it. Do you can you look at a body and actually tell that if the person has died peacefully or was it a violent death? You know, it's very hard to tell um because even if a person is being badly hurt, you know, strangled or something or
(1:12:19) stabbed and their face in that moment might be, you know, screaming or the eyes open. When you die, everything kind of relaxes, you know, it just goes, your face falls, everything just falls. So, I really can't tell. um if they died peacefully or not. Now, you know, I had a little old lady. She was dead in the bed and we went over because, you know, she was alone and there was medicine on the night table for heart disease.
(1:12:53) She was old and normally a little lady like that would be laying in the bed peacefully with the covers on her. But there was something funny. The covers were pulled. They were messed up. and her drawers were open. There was nothing in them to steal, but they looked like they had been searched, not just tossed out.
(1:13:15) And we found out that a neighbor's son had gone in there and strangled her. But what he did really was smother her. Now, how did we know that? Because if you hold your hand like that over somebody's mouth, particularly an older person or a child, they go like this to get away. And when they do, it leaves abrasions. Their teeth araid the inside of the lip.
(1:13:41) You lift up the lip and you see it and you're like, "Wait a minute. She was smothered." >> Yeah. And that little fren, it's called the frenulum, a little web of tissue that holds your lip to the gums, that can sometimes tear if you're doing that. See, so many things to know. >> Yeah.
(1:14:01) I I'll I have some pictures to show you. They're all blood spatters. >> Okay. >> Uh, can you tell me what happened where? Because every blood stain is going to tell you a different story, right? >> All right. You're you're you're catching me by surprise here. >> All right. This is blood swipe. All right. It's been is something came across a little pool of blood and drew it in a line.
(1:14:27) >> Okay. >> Okay. Uh, this is interesting. Now, blood drops. We can tell a lot about them. If it's straight down like that, it means it fell straight and round. But when it's like this, this means that the drop was moving. Okay. But in this, this is a kind of a strange one. It looks more to me like someone took a drop of blood and then smeared that way.
(1:14:52) But now, if I see, let me see if you have any of these. Oh, here. Blood spatter. Okay. Oh, this is called drip. Okay. So, blood splashed here and drip straight down. This ah this is blood spatter. Now, this is interesting. Now, now you can see the movement I'm talking about. When a person is running and the bloody knife is dripping, you'll see the blood will hit the ground and then it will streak that way and it will leave like a little tail and that tail points you in the direction that the person was moving.
(1:15:34) See? So you can see that here. You can see the blood moved a drop and then it smeared. >> So this is like mostly a knife killing. Are you telling me? Uh, it's not it's not you can't be sure. It could be also a hammer. You know, when you hit somebody with a piece of wood or a baseball bat, it splashes up just like that.
(1:15:55) Um, all right. Yeah, this is pretty much straight down blood drip. >> What's this? >> Oh, look at that mess. H. This looks like something that was faked. Faked. faked. Yeah, this doesn't look real. This doesn't look like a real crime scene. >> Someone tried to >> Yeah, it looks like someone was flinging >> like how could it be so even flinging blood and then strips down.
(1:16:27) >> Can't be like multiple stabs. No. >> No. No. They wouldn't. Is this the wall? I think this is a cinder block wall, right? >> Yeah. >> This doesn't look like anything that I've seen. >> No, it looks fake. >> That's a fake study. Oh, like they were like they're doing a test for the police here.
(1:16:46) Interpret this, >> you know, and they they did it. >> But they're trying to mess it up in like they're trying to mess it up on purpose. >> Yeah. To do this. >> Flashing it. Yeah. >> What does this say? >> High velocity blood spatter. When a clot of blood or like let's say a gun from a gunshot push out pieces of the brain when they hit it's high velocity so they spray out all around right one single bit of tissue brain matter or a blood clot traveling at a high speed. in this one.
(1:17:30) Can't even tell what this is. Is this a pipe? No, I don't even know what that is. Looks like a pipe. >> They're doing it at all. So that I can see from this side, like from that side. So that >> Mhm. >> Oh, it's the muzzle. Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] Here we have the muzzle and as the projectile went in as probably God got shot a shotgun uh the blood [clears throat] blows back. Yeah.
(1:18:04) >> What does that mean? >> Splashes back just means close contact, close range. >> Somebody shot it. Somebody >> So somebody shoots let's say the abdomen when it goes in like a gunshot from a from [clears throat] a shotgun >> it some will splash back and go into the gun. >> No. >> And what's this? >> Oh this could be fling or cast off what they call it now.
(1:18:36) You know when you pull the you hit with a bat makes blood, you come back for more and the blood casts off onto the wall. >> This is like second or third. First Oh, yeah. Second strike, right? You're right. Yeah, that's what that looks like. And what's this? Like these are two different types of blood. >> Mhm. Oh, this is drying blood.
(1:18:58) Um Oh, see here the blood. Here's a big pool of it. But the blood has different components to it. More liquid like plasma, the more solid like red blood cells. So it separates. You see here we have all the blood and here is the plasma which is orange and yellow. It just separates away from the rest of the blood. Just simple physics.
(1:19:24) This here and this part is more dried. This I don't know. Looks like somebody cooked it. It's like clot. >> Yeah, it's all but the blackness of it either very old or someone heated it up. >> Oh, do you think it is because the blood was just lying there for like long time? >> It's Yeah. I mean, it's it's this is a very this is clotting like you normally see.
(1:19:53) This is a very old clotting of blood. It's all dried up. >> Just like weeks. >> Yeah. What is the tiniest clue that you've seen that completely changed your investigation or what completely changed about a death that you used to believe? H that's [clears throat] a very good question. Well, oh, how about this? A woman is stabbed to death.
(1:20:30) Brutally stabbed. There's no sign of forced entry. Looks like someone was just able to walk in or she let someone in because she knew them. All right. And now I'm feeling I'm thinking of family. And so I have to explore the family with the police. Who are they? you know, did she have any fights with her sisters, her aunts, her husband, anybody? Someone she knew came in there and stabbed her.
(1:20:59) Now, then I also see that her face has been punched. Punched repeatedly, but I don't see big knuckle punches. You know, when you smash somebody in the face, you can see the individual knuckles sometimes. This looks more like like this, right? Like it's a softer strike. And who hits like that? A woman, not a man. So that gives me another clue.
(1:21:32) Somebody, it might be a woman. Then I see that there is a big butcher knife, a big kitchen knife 10 in on the hallway in the hallway outside the bedroom where she is dead. H, that's probably the murder weapon. And now I go into the kitchen and I see that there's one of those blocks that you put your knives in.
(1:21:59) And sure enough, there's the missing one is the big one. But I'm looking at it and there's something wrong. It's not bloody enough. First of all, what am I thinking? It's a weapon of opportunity. The person who killed her probably didn't go there to kill her. They had a fight of some kind. Because if she was just going to murder her, why not bring your own knife? Why not bring a gun? Why not? And why beat her face? probably started arguing and start punching her, hitting her.
(1:22:34) And then you're like, "Oh my god." Uh, she saw me. I can't leave her alive. She's unconscious, but she'll tell everybody I'll go to jail. I better kill her. All right. Let me see what we got in the kitchen here. And they're looking at the knives. I will try this one. But when I see that big knife in the hole, a, it's not bloody enough.
(1:22:58) It should be soaked for all these stab wounds. And when I look at the stab wounds, I can tell the size of the knife. If it's a little skinny stab wound, it's probably like a a little um kitchen knife. If it's a big wide one, more like a butcher's knife. But these are different. They have a little edge like we call it a scalloped edge. It's not a clean slice.
(1:23:25) It's just like little waves. And what does that tell you? >> Steak knife. >> A serrated edge knife. Now I go back to the kitchen and I see, okay, in that block there's only one big knife missing. But I look on the side of the counter is another like um what you call a piece of pottery and it has more knives in it. Like just junk knives.
(1:23:50) What's in there? Couple of steak knives. Hm. That means she'd probably use the steak knife. [gasps] So then why? And by the way, there were five steak knives left. Usually they come in a set of six. Okay. So one was out on the counter cuz she was chopping up a salad. Um, four were in the jar and one's missing. M.
(1:24:17) >> So, what I think is that, you know, why wouldn't she hide that big knife? Why'd she leave it right there on the floor? >> To make us think that some big man came in and grabbed a big knife and stabbed her. I mean, what's the what's the thinking there? Well, the truth is there is no thinking.
(1:24:38) They don't know what the hell they're doing. So, what really was the weapon was the stake knife and she took it with her. And I say she, right? >> That woman killing another woman. >> That's what I think. Yeah. I believe, you know, they said, "Oh, it must be the handyman across the street." I said, "No, something's telling me woman.
(1:24:56) " Okay. And that's probably the punches like this. >> That's why you were saying the men don't kill like this. >> No. Men men stab like that, but when they're going to beat someone's face in, I don't know if you ever been in a fight. I hope not. >> Never. >> But you know, they do like this. They punch punch punch with the hard knuckles.
(1:25:17) Women might go like this in a fit of rage like they're arguing. So maybe it's two sisters. They're like, you know, yo, you slept with my husband. You know what I mean? Something like that. So pinging, punching, punching. And she's like, oh, damn it. I got to kill her. I can't let her tell everybody that I beat her to death. >> Yeah. >> So yeah.
(1:25:38) >> What? >> That's right. That was the woman onwoman killing. Yeah. >> H. And what's the weirdest object that you've seen that somebody's used for killing? >> Uh, fireplace tool. In, you know, in fireplaces we have here, you get like a little set of tools. Uh, they're usually black iron and there's like a poker.
(1:26:05) >> Okay. >> There's a hook to move the logs around. And there's also something I'm not even quite sure what it's there for, but it's a long thick rod and at the end this two like little curved forks. So when I saw on this guy's head, he had been hit multiple times with probably the fire poker, but there was a pattern of these two little curved hooks, and that one was not in the fireplace set.
(1:26:39) So, I figure the killer used a fire iron. Fire do you call? Yeah, fire iron. Used the one that had the hooks on it, beat him in the head, and then took it away. Have you se I was reading somewhere that you have seen satanic rituals? >> Oh, yeah. What are they like? >> Um, what I've seen is I don't think they were satanic rituals.
(1:27:04) I think they were um there's Eoruba >> things that are done. It's Afrouban. Um there are different religions and spiritual beliefs that use sacrifice. Usually a dog or an animal would >> But what did you did you see? Have you seen it? >> I've seen them in a very interesting place in New York. There was a woman named Irene Silverman. Mhm.
(1:27:31) >> She was very wealthy and she was very very nice. So two a mother and her son came to Mrs. Silverman's home and said, "We have no place to live. Could you help us? You know, we're my job. I got fired. My son came to stay with me. Now we have no home and we'll help you. We'll clean the house.
(1:27:51) We'll take care of things." Sure. Come on in. >> Yeah. >> And they came in and then they realized, well, this is a pretty good job. we could have this house if we wanted it. We could have her money, her jewels, we could have everything. And they were a couple of grifters. Grifters are conmen. >> And this woman and her son um Sante and Kenneth Kimes they um she disappeared suddenly and suddenly they were owning her house and everything in it.
(1:28:25) So when the relatives called the police, couldn't find Mrs. Silverman anywhere. I got a call from a psychic >> who said, "Barbara, I think I know where she is. There's a big field out in New Jersey and I think she might be out there. I just have a strong feeling." >> I said, "All right, I'll go. You know, we'll go out there. Not a Saturday.
(1:28:46) What the hell?" [clears throat] Now, what am I looking for when I'm looking in a field for a buried potty? Well, first of all, when you dig a a grave, put the person in and put the dirt on top, the dirt settles, right? As the air gets compressed out, it settles. Now, you're going to see a dip in the ground. >> Okay? >> And if it's been there for a while, you're going to see that if there's all grass and weeds over that area, the grass will be much greener because it has the fertilizer of the body.
(1:29:23) So, I'm looking around for that. And now the psychic has like a a tool and she's going around looking for the magnetic pulsations of the earth to tell her where the body is. [laughter] And you know, it's like, okay, whatever. But then we come upon we come upon some railroad tracks and they're abandoned. And on those railroad tracks is the skull of a dog, a bowl with clotted blood in it, feathers, [snorts] um a cross like a crucifix, and oh, little bit bits of what look like like a dried heart, like a heart from an animal.
(1:30:09) And I believe that was a Santaia ritual. And that was scary to be out there looking for a body and seeing this strange little ritual set up in the middle of a railroad track. I had a really hard time with that. I thought, my god, what if the people who killed her were like putting a spell on someone? I don't know.
(1:30:35) Anyway, they never found Mrs. Silverman's body. They believe that the house next door that was being built that she was in the foundation and cement was poured on top of her. That's what they believe. But how are we going to prove it? Have to take down a whole building. >> Do do you believe in ghosts and stuff? >> You know, generally speaking, I don't believe in ghosts.
(1:30:58) However, in my family, there is an absolute ghost. In my great-g grandandmother's home where my mother grew up, um my mother was a little girl. She'd sleep upstairs in this old house. And at night, she would hear people crying and fighting, a man and a woman. Long way off. And then when we were kids, as we got old, you know, she used to say to my my great-grandmother, "What is that?" She said, "Oh, it's nothing.
(1:31:25) People fighting." Then when I got older as kids, we used to play there and we go up the stairs and we when we got to the stair landing, your belly your belly sinks and it's a cold feeling. So we'd run very fast right through. And I asked my mother about it and she asked her grand her grandmother again and she finally told her that my greatuncle Al was very very jealous of his beautiful wife Kora and he thought that she was flirting with a young man who worked in the grocery store and they were fighting and crying and
(1:32:04) there was a loud shot heard and someone ran upstairs and found fell dead on the on the stair landing. Kora was nowhere to be found. So they assumed that she had run away with this young man that she was interested in or he thought she was interested in. So they had the funeral downstairs as we used to do in those days and the body was in the casket and everyone was talking about where did Kora go? Did she go back to Italy? And um then some workmen went upstairs to fix a furnace in that room and they screamed because hidden behind the
(1:32:48) little furnace the heater was the body of a young woman stuffed into a trunk and her arm was hanging out and it was Kora. So what my uncle Al did was shoot her, put her in the trunk and then shoot himself. And [clears throat] you can hear those noises there. And you can feel the cold even today. >> Even today.
(1:33:16) So how can I not think that there might be something to it? Maybe. But do you think you hear them because you can imagine because you've lived that not because the ghost is still there? I think that metaphysically what I believe is that our bodies are matter and that what makes us alive which gives us you know we call it a soul is energy.
(1:33:43) It's universal energy that comes from the great source. And when we die, the energy just leaves and goes back to the source and that's that. However, if there is something so painful, so emotional, so [gasps] horrifying that the soul is blocked somehow from leaving, perhaps that's what we're sensing there.
(1:34:07) That little bit of energy on the stairway. >> Yeah, that's that's what they say in our religion as well. >> Oh, no kidding. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like if there's an unfinished business of the soul, the soul stays there. >> It'll it'll find its way and it'll keep suffering until it finds its way to actually finish the work or the purpose why it was there on why there was life.
(1:34:30) >> Wow. >> And then once you have finished [snorts] that purpose, you've achieved that purpose, then you actually get free or else you keep suffering. I wonder if I could go there and help them to get over their >> to get over their pain and let go and go back to the source and perhaps they'll come back in other pieces or other people or maybe they'll break through the cycle of reincarnation.
(1:34:57) >> Yeah. You believe in reincarnation and stuff? Well, I believe that when a new body is born, that another packet of energy comes into that baby as they're born and makes it alive. So sometimes that whole packet might contain the the the memories, the thoughts, the feelings of someone who died before.
(1:35:22) Sometimes it's a little tiny bit of that packet because they all get mixed up. So there are some people who can talk about a life and describe it from 50 years ago before they were born. They say, "Oh, that was my life." I know a little boy uh at 5 years old. We were having dinner with his parents and he suddenly started crying and said, "Mama, when I come back, I want to come back into this family.
(1:35:55) " And she said, "What?" He said, "Yeah, I I I want to come back in your stomach. I I want to come to this family again." And he was really upset. And she said, "Of course you can come back here." And he was like, "Mama, please promise me I can come to this family." Well, he scared the hell out of me because the emotion was so real. And I could see that he wasn't making this up.
(1:36:18) He was just a little boy. So, yeah. And of course that scares me because my life is so wonderful now. It's had its ups and downs [laughter] but and things have been tough. But each of those things taught me something and now I've come to a place of peace as much as I can hold on to that because you know the world is going crazy.
(1:36:42) But um I wouldn't mind coming back maybe as a French woman. [laughter] That would be fun. >> Does it ever happen that a family killed some family member? They make it look like it's normal. >> Mhm. >> And then they [clears throat] close the shut like they close the case because nobody's actually complaining the police.
(1:37:06) >> That's right. >> Does that happen a lot? >> Sure it does. >> The state or the police is not like, "Hey, no, we need to investigate and figure out." Or they're like, "Let it be if the family doesn't object." >> Well, here's what happens. There was a case I had where um two men lived with their old mother and uh she died at home and uh they called the uh the ambulance who pronounced her dead and they called her family doctor and said look mom died in her sleep last night.
(1:37:43) And the family doctor said yes I'm not surprised so I'll sign a death certificate. Nobody called us, right? So, they buried her in New Jersey in a grave very quickly and then they had her inheritance. Then we got some calls to the police where neighbors were saying, "Look, I know that lady just died, but her sons, they used to hit her.
(1:38:09) She always had bruises. She always had something wrong. She was always injured. She could barely walk out of the house. It was very And the [clears throat] police were like, "Well, you know, I mean, does this can you give us anything more specific?" Well, yeah. One time she had her arm in a sling. I think it was broken.
(1:38:32) And so it got to a point where these people gave so much information that the police called us and said, "Look, we think you should dig up her grave and let's have a look, right?" And we did. Now, this poor lady, was she buried in a nice burial robe? No. She was in a dirty old house dress and torn underwear as if they just threw her in the cheapest coffin they could find and buried her.
(1:38:57) They said, "Clothes casket. Nobody nobody sees her." We dug her up and she did have injuries all over, bruises, old healed, broken bones. [gasps] I believe that they actually beat her. But can I prove it? Maybe she fell down a lot. And that's what the son said. Oh, she was always hurting herself, always falling down.
(1:39:27) But to me, the kicker was the fact that they just threw her in the grave without even putting her in a decent dress. So, I feel like, yeah, they heard her and she died from that. Who can prove it, though? >> Nobody. >> Nobody. >> It's hard. I hate those cases. >> Usually, when somebody kills somebody, the murderers.
(1:39:51) What are the biggest mistakes murderers make? >> Thinking that they won't get caught. They think they're so smart sometimes. Oh, going to wear gloves so that um I don't leave any fingerprints. >> Yeah, >> I'm going to clean up all the blood. I'll use ammonia. Yeah, ammonia is good for cleaning up blood. Well, they're wrong on two counts. One, the inside.
(1:40:15) If you use a glove like a dishwashing glove to kill and you're killing someone and then you just take off the gloves, rinse the blood off and put them in the sink. I can go inside that glove and get your DNA. That's number one. Number two, ammonia does not kill blood. It doesn't kill DNA, right? It cleans it up, but there's still traces.
(1:40:41) So, the crime scene unit will bring in alternate light sources, special lights that they can shine on the wall. They spray a thing called uh luminol and that makes the blood shine like fluores and we can see the blood on the wall or the blood on the guy's shoes. So yeah, they think they're smart. They Oh, I know how to cover up a murder. No, you don't.
(1:41:02) >> You can outsmart them. >> That's right. That's right. And the police, the crime scene unit, they know every trick. >> Mhm. Then if you have to draw um let's say if I give you this to draw what are the four biggest categories or what are the four biggest reasons why people kill other people? >> What are the four biggest reasons why they kill? >> Yeah.
(1:41:25) So what would be those? >> Okay. Okay. Money. H revenge. >> Okay. >> What is it? Money. Hate. >> Money and business. >> All right. >> Okay. Hate. Revenge. >> Hate. You know, like I don't like foreigners and I I'm going to I'm going
(1:42:09) to go shoot them. You know, these young crazy people do this. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> They just want to kill, let's say. >> Yeah. Remember that kid who went into a demonstration? I think it was Palestinian people. They just start shooting at people. >> They kill out of hate because they're frightened of foreign people.
(1:42:28) >> Is it because race, color? >> Yeah. Race, color, religion, being gay, any of those things. Yeah. Okay. >> Revenge. >> This is personal. >> Your husband has cheated on you and he's been doing it for a long time. He made a fool out of you. All right. I'm going to hire a couple of guys to come and kill him. And then here's a big one.
(1:42:53) The man's cheating on his wife. He finds, you know, she's been boring to him. He's getting older. He wants to have young women. And then he falls in love with a young woman and now he wants to get a divorce, but he doesn't want his wife and children to have his money. So, what should he do? Hm, let's see.
(1:43:16) Either I could give her child support and pay her alimony, or if I could get rid of her, then I keep all my money and my girlfriend and I can go get married. That happens a lot. >> Is that a big reason you've put in a top four? Yeah. Well, what else is there? What other reasons can you think of to kill people? >> I was asking that is a big reason.
(1:43:38) It happens a lot. >> Sure. Look at these American shows. Uh look at like Scott Peterson. Um all these these things where the the wife they say she commits suicide and then everything starts to look funny. And when you begin investigating, you find out he has a girlfriend. Then you go talk to the girlfriend and she's frightened.
(1:44:02) She knows if this man she loves killed his wife, he could kill her. >> Yeah. So they tell the story. >> So if if you were to point out, let's say out of 100 deaths, >> h >> what would be how many would be this this rough estimate? >> It depends on the year. Now when I first started out in the business in 1992, we were getting about 2,400 homicides every year just in New York City.
(1:44:30) So about 70% of them were business. It was drugs. That was the crack epidemic. That was, you know, drugs were driving people crazy. There was all those uh, you know, the cocaine wars, all that stuff. So it was business. And they are very, very hard to solve because it's two unknown guys.
(1:44:51) One shoots the other one, kills them. Then the victim, his brother, comes and shoots other members of the gang. And it goes back and forth and they're killing each other left and right. That was the big majority. Then the personal killings, you know, husband wants to get rid of his wife. Yeah. Kills her.
(1:45:11) That that would probably be number two is the personal or like someone broke your heart. You got to strangle her. >> Um >> today, >> h >> what would it be like today? >> You know, I don't really know right now. This there's hardly any homicides in New York. maybe 300, 350. So, some of them are like, oh, the hate, like the guy Luigi who allegedly, you know, shot a man who was a working in a pharmaceutical company.
(1:45:42) He hates him. I'm just going to shoot him on the street. >> Um, today the hate would be the biggest. >> Not the biggest. No. >> Out of all four, which one like what would be scenario? Like today >> would be like top four. Uh the top two would be money and business and the personal you know between a a couple or people in a family.
(1:46:07) Revenge is not that much and hate it doesn't happen that much in New York certainly. So, it's kind of hard to give you a breakdown, but I'd say the two major ones >> this and this >> money and business and then personal jealousy, love, wanting to get rid of your family so that you can go live with a mistress on the Caribbean island.
(1:46:28) [laughter] >> How do they live after doing this? >> I don't know. Because you know, you see them, they get arrested and they go to trial and they found guilty and now they're going to be in jail for the rest of their lives. These these guys like only 40 years old and that's it. Your life is over.
(1:46:52) Why don't you just pay her the damn money? Pay for your children's education. Pay for your wife who helped you build your business. It's just money. Are there are there signs that somebody will turn into a killer? Rage, you know, these these personal killings. Uh I think a lot of times they're done in a psychotic rage like you just you can't stand it anymore and you kill someone.
(1:47:24) And um that would be a person who was known to be rageful, have temper, you know, have attacks of anger and rage or beat their wife or beat their husband. Some women hit their husbands. Yeah. So they have rage. I don't know why, but it's part of their psychological makeup. >> See, you've you spent enough time in New York understanding death.
(1:47:48) >> All my life. If I show you a map of New York, can you tell me what kind of neighborhoods will have what kind of homicides or deaths? >> No. >> No. >> I can tell you what neighborhoods have the most homicides. >> Okay. >> That would be um in Brooklyn. >> If I show you this >> certain neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
(1:48:09) >> Let's see. >> You're going to make me draw things. >> Okay. >> You can point it out. >> Okay. Let's see. in Brooklyn. I I would say that East New York has a good number. >> Wow. >> Um Crown Heights Heights because there's still poor people that live there. >> Uh there's still people that, you know, sell drugs.
(1:48:29) Um but you know what's interesting is that Brooklyn is really changing and it's now in many ways more expensive than Manhattan. Now, as more young people move there, young people with money, it gets gentrified and then the poor people are pushed out and then they go do homicides elsewhere. In Manhattan, it would probably be up here in the 34th precinct.
(1:48:50) That used to be the most homicides in Manhattan. I don't know what it is now. And then in the Bronx, it would be scattered around places like [gasps] oh what used to be the Oh, maybe it still is. um the market area with trucks coming in and out delivering food and meat and things like that and people used to rob them, rob the truck drivers.
(1:49:12) They used to be prostitutes down there and then they were easy to kill. >> Staten Island and Queens. >> No, Stanton Island. Nothing. Nothing. >> Queens. >> Queens maybe a few, but they'd be personal. >> They won't be like >> No, they won't be like crazy, you know, drug drug things. But, you know, in Brooklyn around the projects, you know, the the housing areas where there's government housing, you know, that's where you get kids with guns like just shooting at each other and they hit innocent people, you know.
(1:49:47) So, but it's so hard to tell if you only have 350 homicides. Like, what are the statistics? >> But what's the most unsafe area today? Which one is the most un unsafe area in New York? >> Oh, you know what? I couldn't say because there aren't really many areas left. >> Still, if you had to still point out like there still there is some left.
(1:50:07) >> There actually is not any county or town or area that I could point to. It's more scattered now. There's nothing. It's just everywhere. Just in any country in this world, you can have areas where crazy people just go out and kill someone. Or look at the school shooters. My god. My god.
(1:50:30) Why is that happening? >> That is one of the strangest phenomenons I've ever seen. >> And it's happening left, right, center. You keep hearing about almost every state. >> Yeah. >> That California. >> Mhm. >> I mean, and you would assume that California is safe and it's rich and it's great. >> It Yeah. Like Connecticut, >> a very wealthy town, nice schools, little children, and some guy Dylan, whatever his name was.
(1:50:57) We don't even say their names anymore because they should disappear from history. Goes in there with a gun and just starts shooting little children. And then what do they do? They kill themselves. And I say, "Wait a minute. If you're going to kill yourself, please just do it. Why do you need to take other people with you?" Well, there's a reason.
(1:51:19) Because they're angry. They are young teenage boys who are confused and lonely and frightened and they take a few drugs, even just smoking pot and it makes them worse and they start to think everyone in the world is against them and they get darker and darker in their minds and they're so angry.
(1:51:44) They feel like the world is against me. Why don't people be nice to me? Well, because you act like a lunatic. you walk around the school in black clothes with, you know, hoods on and and then they just go and shoot children. It's because they are enraged with anger and unhappiness. >> Your first suicide case that you investigated was about an angry man.
(1:52:09) >> Oh yes. >> And you were about to kill yourself. >> Oh my god, that was the craziest case. Yeah, that's the first story in the book. Um this man uh I was called. They said, "Uh there's a suicide. There's a guy hanging in his apartment and it was late at night and I went over there and um all the lights were out.
(1:52:31) " The cops said, "Well, I think the electricity was turned off. Probably he didn't pay his bills." Very dark. He had a flashlight and I had a flashlight. So, you know, I go in and look at the guy and it's just a heavy man, white man, very pale, and he's just hanging from a pipe. Um, nothing unusual.
(1:52:53) Uh, you know, his feet were touching the ground because it stretches the rope. He just cut off blood supply. And the apartment was so sad and lonely looking. It just had stacks of dirty old newspapers. The sheets on the bed were filthy. The the fa furniture was just old and dirty and it just looked awful. Even the windows were just covered with filthy old shades and it was dark in there.
(1:53:24) And um the cop I was teasing him. I said, "Where are the detectives?" He said, "Well, you know, they came here earlier and then they said, "Oh, it's a suicide." And they left. I said, "Well, that's not very nice. I wanted to come up and hang around with the guys and, you know, talk about the case. So, um, I went in there and I looked around and everything appeared to be like a suicide.
(1:53:48) Now, I'm taking pictures and back then in '92, '93, we used Polaroid cameras, right? Before digital, so I take my pictures, the flashlight lights, the flash lights up the body. And I went back to my office. Okay. Now, the strange thing was that I had had an operation on my hand. I was using a saw and I cut through the tendons and so my hand was in a cast. I couldn't use it.
(1:54:17) Normally, what I would do before I left was to cut the guy down. I would hold the rope and then very carefully cut above my hand and let him I mean I couldn't ease him down but I could let him down a little easier just you know didn't break his head. Um but I couldn't do it this time because my hand was in a cast.
(1:54:41) So I told the cop, "All right, I'll send the mor wagon and the guys will cut him down, but please tell them to make sure they cut way above the liature." All right. Then I left. I get back to my office and I'm looking at the pictures and I'm writing up my reports and I see something interesting in the flash of the camera.
(1:55:00) I see that what he's hanged himself with is one of those big outdoor extension cords. They're orange. Very hard, very tough. That's a good thing to hang yourself with. It works. But here's the funny thing. Right next to the body on the wall, the end of that cord was plugged into the wall. I'm like, wait a minute.
(1:55:21) Why is that plugged in? There's no electricity in the house. Right? Then I realized, wait a minute, I think he faked this. What he did? Well, I called the cop and I said, "Look, don't let anybody touch the body. Don't cut it." He said, "What's the matter?" I said, "Just go do me a favor. Turn the light bulb.
(1:55:42) Screw them in and see if they're loose." He goes and does it. And yes, there really is electricity. But this guy took out the bulbs or left them so loose that they didn't work to make it look like there was no electricity. And then when he plugged himself in before hanging, knowing that whoever cut him down might get a deadly electrocution shock.
(1:56:05) But why didn't I get shocked because I didn't cut him down? And why didn't I cut him down? Because I cut my hand with a saw. You see how the the powers of the universe work? Sometimes a bad thing happens to you for a good reason. So I was thinking, why on earth would this guy want to do that? Why don't you, if you have to kill yourself, okay, but why try to hurt someone else? Because they're angry.
(1:56:36) They're so unhappy and no one pays attention to them. No one loves them. No one is their friend. They're lonely and they get so angry. All right, I'm taking somebody else with me. And that's how I feel about those school shooters. So enraged. I'm going to make other people suffer the way I do. Their parents of these children are going to suffer.
(1:56:59) Then there's the peaceful suicides. Someone who has a broken heart just can't bear the pain anymore. They take pills, they drink some liquor, and they go to sleep. And then like people who who jump off buildings, land in the street with a huge noise and could possibly hurt someone on the ground, hit them. They're saying something.
(1:57:23) Hey, look at me. Look at me. I'm in pain. And this one case I did, the young woman who killed herself was a student at Giuliard, a music student. I think it was violin. And she wrote a note. She said, "Dear and honorable parents, I am so sorry that I did not make first chair for the violin. I have let you down.
(1:57:52) I am so sorry and ashamed." Have a nice day. And then her name. Have a nice day. [laughter] That is passive aggressive anger. She was so angry at [clears throat] them, she let them down just because she wasn't the best violinist. So, she killed herself, but she made them feel like right? After investigating all these deaths and going through certain experiences and more than you've experienced thousands of deaths.
(1:58:30) What do you think? What's the best way to die? in your sleep. Absolutely. If you can just go to sleep next to somebody you love after a fine dinner, a good evening, cuddled up, then you just die quietly. >> And then the person you love will be traumatized for life. >> Exactly. Right. They wake up because you're cold and they're like, "Ah, my god.
(1:58:53) " But here's something I used to think about. I know I don't want to die because I'm having a very, very good life. I want to enjoy it. But in times when I was just depressed or, you know, things were bad, I'd think, I wish that I was 95 years old walking down the street and someone shoots me in the back of the head and I die instantly. And then there would be a big story in the newspaper.
(1:59:18) Vibrant, lively woman dies in her prime, shot, brutally, murdered in the streets. Lovely, wonderful woman. Because if you get sick and you lay around in bed and it takes you 8 months to die and everybody's like, "Oh my god, we got to take care of her every day, [laughter] that's a drag." But if you go out dramatically with a big bang, then it's like, "Wow, everybody notices.
(1:59:46) " Poor Barbara. Oh my god, she was so wonderful. [laughter] >> I love how lively you are talking about death and like making up scenarios and imaginations like another day at work. It is. Yeah. Because I don't mind being around dead people. Now, let me tell you the truth, though, that many of the cases I saw were so bad, so tragic, so brutal that they crushed my soul.
(2:00:15) How can you do this work and still have your heart? Well, when I walked into a scene and it was just awful, like a child dying or something like that, being murdered, the shock is very bad and you're like, "No." But what you have to do is drop the curtain, drop a shield. You have to stop your emotions because you're no good.
(2:00:40) You can't do your work. If you're all feeling, "Oh my god, this poor child. I must be perfect at my work for the victim." and for the family. So I close it down and do my work precisely. I don't miss anything. Now hopefully when the day ends, you can go home and lift that shield up and be with your family. You know what? After a couple of years, you just can't.
(2:01:11) Do you lose empathy and love and just this little feeling >> when you do certain kind of work like this? >> Like do you become emotionless? Do you do you feel numb? >> Not emotionless but shut down. Yeah. For many years especially after 9/11 now that was >> traumatic. huge tragedy and to have to work down there and find the remains of these people and oh the work was just so awful and it was so frightening because Americans always think well we're so safe we're so powerful. No, we're not.
(2:01:48) And so [sighs and gasps] I was completely shut down for a long time. I couldn't keep a relationship. I couldn't speak because I'd come home And I was thinking of all the horrible things I'd seen that day. And then my partner says, "Oh, look, we're going to have to paint this kitchen. I can't stand this color anymore.
(2:02:11) Maybe on Saturday you could we could paint." And I'm like, "Oh my god, please don't talk to me about paint. Please don't talk to me about me booking a vacation in Florida. I can't think. I can't. And it's so unfair to the people we love because we're gone." >> Yeah. Now, why do I not feel like that anymore? Because I had very, very good therapy through the World Trade Center Health Program.
(2:02:40) Great therapy. I have a brilliant therapist and um we work on all these traumas until they can fade to the back of my mind and I don't have to think of them every day. So, I enjoy life completely. I love, I live, I play, I have friends, I enjoy every minute of every day. That's amazing. That's a gift.
(2:03:10) What can people learn from your work? >> A couple of things. I think you know like the books the title is what the dead know. And what I mean about that is a couple of things. One is they know how they really died. And I hope that they will tell me because they know the story of what happened at the end. And I try to read that story by examining the body and the scene.
(2:03:39) But the other thing they know is the moment of infinite regret. If you are dying and it takes a few minutes, you think, "Oh, this is it. Why didn't I play more? Why did I work all the time? Why didn't I play with my children? Why did I yell at them to clean their rooms all the time? What difference did it make? Instead of cleaning their rooms, we should have been outside throwing a ball.
(2:04:09) I worried so much about the little things. I paid too much attention to the wrong things. Nobody ever died and said, "Oh, I wish I worked more." No, they say, "Ah, I wish I had spent more time with people I love." So I try to remember that every day I have my moment of gratitude. Thank you for another day.
(2:04:33) Thank you to the universe, to the God, to the higher power, whatever you believe in. And thank you for the gift of today of life. Thank you for the ability to walk. I'm so happy that I can walk and see and hear and taste. What a gift. >> Yeah, it is. >> And I'm I'm at an age now where it counts, you know. So I hope people learn that that you're going to, you know, the death rate is now 100%.
(2:05:02) Every single person's going to die, you know. [laughter and gasps] So I just I believe in the gratitude of every day. >> We all should. >> Yeah. >> And what is one thing that people don't want to hear about death? >> Why don't they want to hear? Because it's they're afraid. Nobody wants to think about death. What is one thing that they don't want to know about death? They don't want to know.
(2:05:25) H I think everybody has a belief of maybe there's a heaven or a hell. I think that nobody wants to believe that there is nothing. That's scary to think that. I mean, many religions believe that this is one life. That's it. When you're gone, you're gone. that there is no chance to return to the universal light or the source of energy.
(2:05:57) There's no chance to come back. There's no chance for anything because it ends and that's it. That's that's sad to think about. It's scary. No, I want to keep going. But I believe that I will. So, I don't fear death. >> What is one advice that nobody should follow? [snorts] >> [laughter] >> Put yourself first.
(2:06:22) People say, "Oh, oh, take care of number one. Take care of yourself before anybody else." No, that's a that's an empty way of life. We are a global societ. This nation is this world is now global. If a child in Africa is hungry, it's going to affect me, my karma, [snorts] my life, my reincarnation, my happiness. I don't think that I should just look out for number one.
(2:06:53) I think I should look out for the people I love and the people I come across in the world who maybe I can help. Can I stop starvation in Africa? No. But can I feed a guy who's, you know, sitting on the sidewalk, doesn't have any money for food? I'm not going to hand him money because he might use buy cigarettes, [clears throat] but I'll go into the restaurant with him and say, "Here, give this guy a meal. I'm paying for it.
(2:07:18) " That's a little thing to do that has a big impact. >> See, >> that's beautiful. >> That's a beautiful thing to say. >> Yeah. So, but we all should look out for each other. And the last thing is what is the personal cost that you have paid to become a death investigator? There is a personal cost. There is the cost of having shut down from my emotions for so very long.
(2:07:45) The relationships I lost, the friends I lost because I wasn't there emotionally. There is some health issues from 9/11 of course, but they're manageable. Um, but probably the biggest cost is the loss of innocence. I know things that people should never know. I hope that no one ever has to see the things I've seen.
(2:08:18) So many times I wish I wish I had never seen that. So I hope everyone gets to live a life of beauty, love, creativity, and joy. If you want to be a death investigator, get ready cuz it's going to be rough. >> [laughter] >> Thank you so much for sharing your the stories. >> Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you.
(2:08:42) >> It was pleasure to have you here. You're a fierce women with amazing storytelling skills and a lot of courage which I believe rarely somebody has. I've never seen that. [music] >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Raj, nice to meet you. >> Pleased to meet you. >> Pleasure is mine. How are you doing? >> You are an excellent storyteller.
(2:09:03) >> Thank you. I really enjoy like the way you explain things. It's >> quite interesting. >> Well, you know, it's become my salvation because after spending [music] nearly 25 years in death, despair, and destruction, now I want to do things that are more creative, more more light. [music] >> And so, it's telling stories for me.
(2:09:29) You might wonder, why is a nice woman [music] like me doing such a horrible job? Because it's important to me and I feel [music] like if you can do it and nobody else can, then you should. And I can do it. For some reason, I am not frightened by dead people. I don't mind being around them. Not at all. They're very safe.
(2:09:54) It's living people who scare me, not dead people, you [laughter] know. >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(2:10:14) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
Author Name:Raj Shamani
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Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgBLqo8TwgE
Title: Death Investigator: What Dead Bodies Reveal About Murder | Barbara Butcher | FO575 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
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Timestamps -
00:00 - Intro
04:03 - Inside the Mind of a Death Investigator
11:42 - What Does a Death Investigator Look for First at a Crime Scene?
17:00 - Can You Really Determine the Exact Time of Death?
20:28 - How to Move a Body Without Disturbing the Evidence
24:55 - What Can Gunshot Wounds Reveal About a Killer’s Motive?
32:14 - Beyond the Body: The Evidence That Solves a Murder
38:25 - What Happens to the Human Body After Death?
45:02 - What Does Death Actually Smell Like?
47:54 - Can a Dead Body Move on Its Own?
51:56 - Suicide or Murder? How Investigators Tell the Difference
57:48 - How Killers Try to Fool Death Investigators
1:04:09 - Can a Killer Manipulate the Time of Death and Get Away With Murder?
1:11:56 - Can a Body Reveal Whether Someone Died Peacefully or Violently?
1:13:58 - Blood Spatter Analysis: How Bloodstains Reveal What Happened
1:19:56 - How Crime Scene Clues Reveal a Killer’s Relationship With the Victim
1:30:51 - Does Barbara Butcher Believe in Ghosts and Reincarnation?
1:41:10 - The Four Biggest Motives Behind Murder
1:47:43 - Do Certain Neighborhoods Have More Murders?
1:52:02 - The Strange Case of a Man Who Appeared to Die by Suicide
2:03:08 - What the Dead Teach Us About Living a Better Life
2:06:14 - What Is One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow?
2:07:27 - The Personal Cost of Being a Death Investigator
2:08:56 - BTS
2:09:58 - Outro
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In today’s episode, we sit down with Barbara Butcher, a retired death investigator from the NYC Office of Chief Medical Examiner who investigated over 5,500 deaths, including homicides, suicides, accidents and disasters, across two decades.
We talk about what Barbara looks for in the first moments at a death scene, why nobody can tell the exact time of death, and what happens to the body after we die. She shares how she reads gunshot wounds, blood spatter, and ligature marks, and how killers stage murders to look like suicides.
We also talk about the real reasons people kill, why so many murders in America go unsolved, and the booby-trapped suicide scene that almost cost her life. She reveals the emotional weight of working through the aftermath of 9/11, the personal toll of shutting down her feelings, and what the dead teach us about living with gratitude.
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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# తెలుగు అనువాదం
## శీర్షిక
**డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్: హత్య గురించి మృతదేహాలు ఏం వెల్లడిస్తాయి? | బార్బరా బచర్ | FO575 రాజ్ షమాని**
**రచయిత:** రాజ్ షమాని
**YouTube ఛానల్:** [https://www.youtube.com/@rajshamani](https://www.youtube.com/@rajshamani)
**వీడియో లింక్:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgBLqo8TwgE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgBLqo8TwgE)
## వివరణ
- Porter యాప్ డౌన్లోడ్ చేయండి: [https://porter.in/enterprise](https://porter.in/enterprise)
- బార్బరా బచర్ వెబ్సైట్: [https://www.barbarabutcherofficial.com/](https://www.barbarabutcherofficial.com/)
- హ్యాండ్-పిక్డ్ ప్లేబుక్: [https://www.figuringout.co/pdf/fo-575](https://www.figuringout.co/pdf/fo-575)
- అతిథి సూచన ఫారం, పాడ్కాస్ట్ ఎపిసోడ్ డిజైన్ ఫారం, సోషల్ మీడియా గ్రోత్ కోసం ఫారం—డిస్క్రిప్షన్లో లింక్లు ఉన్నాయి.
**డిస్క్లైమర్:** ఈ వీడియో విద్యాపరమైన ప్రయోజనాల కోసం మాత్రమే. అతిథి పంచిన అభిప్రాయాలు ఆమె వ్యక్తిగత దృక్కోణాలే. వీడియోలో పేర్కొన్న వ్యక్తి, బ్రాండ్, ఉత్పత్తి, దేశం లేదా వృత్తిని దూషించడం లేదా హాని చేయడం ఉద్దేశ్యం కాదు. ప్రేక్షకులు సమాచారం ఆధారంగా సమాచారపూర్వక నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకోవడం లక్ష్యం.
**పుస్తకం:** *Build, Don’t Talk* ఇంగ్లీష్, హిందీ ఎడిషన్లు Amazon లో అందుబాటులో ఉన్నాయి. WhatsApp ఛానల్, Spotify, YouTube ఛానల్స్ లింక్లు డిస్క్రిప్షన్లో ఉన్నాయి.
## టైమ్స్టాంప్లు
- 00:00 – పరిచయం
- 04:03 – డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ మనసు లోపల
- 11:42 – క్రైమ్ సీన్లో డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ మొదట ఏం చూస్తారు?
- 17:00 – మరణ సమయాన్ని ఖచ్చితంగా నిర్ణయించగలరా?
- 20:28 – ఎవిడెన్స్ పాడు కాకుండా మృతదేహాన్ని ఎలా తిప్పాలి?
- 24:55 – తుపాకీ గాయాలు హంటకుడి ఉద్దేశం గురించి ఏం చెబుతాయి?
- 32:14 – మృతదేహం దాటి: హత్యను పరిష్కరించే సాక్ష్యాలు
- 38:25 – మరణం తర్వాత మానవ శరీరానికి ఏం జరుగుతుంది?
- 45:02 – మరణం నిజంగా ఏ వాసన వస్తుంది?
- 47:54 – మృతదేహం తానే కదలగలదా?
- 51:56 – ఆత్మహత్యా హత్యా? ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్లు తేడాను ఎలా గుర్తిస్తారు?
- 57:48 – హంతకులు డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్లను ఎలా మోసం చేయడానికి ప్రయత్నిస్తారు?
- 1:04:09 – మరణ సమయాన్ని మార్చి హత్య నుంచి తప్పించుకోగలరా?
- 1:11:56 – శాంతిగా చనిపోయారా, హింసాత్మకంగా చనిపోయారా అని మృతదేహం చెబుతుందా?
- 1:13:58 – బ్లడ్ స్ప్యాటర్ విశ్లేషణ: రక్తపు మచ్చలు ఏం చెబుతాయి?
- 1:19:56 – క్రైమ్ సీన్ ఆధారాలు హంతకుడు–బాధితుడి సంబంధాన్ని ఎలా వెల్లడిస్తాయి?
- 1:30:51 – బార్బరా బచర్ దెయ్యాలు, పునర్జన్మలను నమ్ముతారా?
- 1:41:10 – హత్యకు నాలుగు పెద్ద కారణాలు
- 1:47:43 – కొన్ని ప్రాంతాల్లో హత్యలు ఎక్కువగా ఉంటాయా?
- 1:52:02 – ఆత్మహత్యగా కనిపించిన ఒక విచిత్ర కేసు
- 2:03:08 – మంచి జీవితం గురించి మృతులు మనకు నేర్పించే పాఠాలు
- 2:06:14 – ఎవరూ పాటించకూడని ఒక సలహా
- 2:07:27 – డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్గా వ్యక్తిగత వెలుతుళ్లు
- 2:08:56 – బీహైంద్ ది సీన్స్
- 2:09:58 – ముగింపు
## ఎపిసోడ్ పరిచయం
ఈ ఎపిసోడ్లో, NYC Office of Chief Medical Examiner లో పనిచేసిన రిటైర్డ్ డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ బార్బరా బచర్తో మాట్లాడారు. రెండు దశాబ్దాల కాలంలో ఆమె 5,500 కంటే ఎక్కువ మరణాలను—హత్యలు, ఆత్మహత్యలు, ప్రమాదాలు, విపత్తులు—దర్యాప్తు చేశారు.
మరణ స్థలంలో మొదటి క్షణాల్లో ఆమె ఏం గమనిస్తారో, మరణ సమయాన్ని ఖచ్చితంగా ఎవరూ చెప్పలేకపోవడం ఎందుకో, మరణం తర్వాత శరీరానికి ఏం జరుగుతుందో చర్చించారు. తుపాకీ గాయాలు, రక్తపు చిందటం, గొంతు మెలితిప్పిన గాయాలను ఎలా అర్థం చేసుకుంటారో, హంతకులు హత్యను ఆత్మహత్యలా కనిపించేలా ఎలా స్టేజ్ చేస్తారో కూడా చెప్పారు.
ప్రజలు ఎందుకు చంపుతారు, అమెరికాలో ఎన్నో హత్యలు ఎందుకు పరిష్కారం కావు, దాదాపు ఆమె ప్రాణం తీసిన బూబీ-ట్రాప్ ఆత్మహత్య సీన్ వంటి విషయాలు కూడా చర్చించారు. 9/11 తర్వాత పనిచేసిన భావోద్వేగ భారం, భావాలను అణచివేయడం వల్ల వచ్చిన వ్యక్తిగత వెలుతుళ్లు, కృతజ్ఞతతో జీవించడం గురించి మృతులు నేర్పించే పాఠాలు కూడా చెప్పారు.
## ట్రాన్స్క్రిప్ట్ అనువాదం
**(00:00)** “ఒక వ్యక్తికి భార్య ఉంది. అతను ఆమెను పిచ్చిగా ప్రేమించేవాడు, కానీ అతిగా అనుమానాస్పదుడు. ఒక రోజు వాళ్లు అపార్ట్మెంట్ భవనంలోకి వస్తుండగా, బిల్డింగ్ మేనేజర్ అతనివైపు చూసి ‘హలో’ అని పలకరించారు. ఇంట్లోకి వెళ్లగానే అతను పిచ్చివాడయ్యాడు. ఆమె అతనితో ఫ్లర్ట్ చేస్తోందని భావించి అరుస్తూ, ఆమెను ఎన్నోసార్లు పొడిచాడు. సీలింగ్పై, గోడలపై, నేలపై రక్తం పడింది. సుమారు 80 సార్లు పొడిచాడు—ఇంక పొడవడానికి ఏమీ మిగలలేదు.”
**(00:19)** “మృతదేహం కదలగలదా? శబ్దం చేస్తుందా?”
“నాకు జరిగింది.”
“నిజంగా?”
“అవును. మరణం తర్వాత కూడా శరీరం లోపల వాయువులు ఉంటాయి. ఒక కొత్త పోలీసుకు మృతదేహాన్ని కాపలా కాయమని చెప్పారు. అతను భయంతో కూర్చున్నాడు. మృతదేహం కొద్దిగా కదిలి, శబ్దం చేయడంతో అతను భయపడి రెండుసార్లు కాల్చేశాడు.”
**(00:42)** “మరణ స్థలంలోకి నడిచి వెళ్లిన క్షణంలో మీరు మొదట ఏం చూస్తారు?”
“మొదట మృతదేహాన్ని చూడను. తలుపు వద్ద నిలబడి మొత్తం సీన్ను గమనిస్తాను. తర్వాత శరీరాన్ని పరిశీలించి కత్తి గాయం లేదా తుపాకీ గాయం ఉందో చూస్తాను. గోర్ల కింద మాంసం, వెంట్రుకలు, రక్తం ఉందో చూస్తాను—ఎవరైనా ప్రాణం కోసం పోరాడి ఉంటే అలా ఉంటుంది. మృతదేహం వీపు మీద పడి ఉంటే రక్తం గురుత్వాకర్షణ వల్ల కిందికి స్థిరపడుతుంది.”
**(01:36)** “కానీ వీపు మొత్తం నీలిరంగులో ఉండి, ఎడమవైపు ఇంకా ఎర్రటి రక్తం ఉంటే—అతను మొదట పక్కగా పడి ఉన్నాడని, మరణం తర్వాత వీపు మీద పడేశారని అర్థం. మృతదేహం కదిలించబడిందని నాకు తెలుస్తుంది. మరణ సమయాన్ని ఖచ్చితంగా తెలుసుకోవడానికి నిర్దిష్టమైన పద్ధతి లేదు.”
**(01:56)** “ఎవరైనా చూసి ఉంటే తప్ప. సినిమాల్లో ఎవరో వచ్చి ‘ఇతను ఇంత సమయానికి చనిపోయాడు’ అని చెబుతారు.”
“అది అబద్ధం. హంతకులు మనల్ని మోసం చేయగలరా?”
“చేయగలరు. మీకు మూడు తెలివైన పద్ధతులు చెప్పాలంటే—నువ్వు రహస్యాలు తెలుసుకుంటావు కాబట్టి నిన్ను చంపేయాల్సి వస్తుంది.” *(నవ్వు)*
**(02:20)** “చంపడానికి వాడిన అతి విచిత్రమైన వస్తువు ఏమిటి?”
“హంతకులు చేసే అతి పెద్ద తప్పు ఏమిటి?”
“‘నన్ను పట్టుకోరు’ అని అనుకోవడం.”
“వేల మరణాలు చూశారు. ఉత్తమమైన మరణం ఏది?”
“నిద్రలో చనిపోవడం. ఖచ్చితంగా.”
“ఎవరైనా హంతకుడిగా మారతారని సూచనలు ఉంటాయా?”
“నాకు ఎక్సైట్మెంట్, నర్వస్నెస్, కొంచెం భయం ఉంది. ఒక చిన్న అభ్యర్థన—మా ఛానల్ను సబ్స్క్రైబ్ చేయండి. ఎక్కువ సబ్స్క్రైబర్లు ఉంటే మంచి, పెద్ద అతిథులను తీసుకురాగలం. ఈ షో పూర్తి ఆడియో అనుభవం Spotify లో కూడా అందుబాటులో ఉంది.”
**(03:18)** “కస్టమర్కు లేదా మరో వ్యాపారానికి చిన్న పార్సెల్ పంపాల్సి వచ్చినప్పుడు నమ్మదగిన ట్రాన్స్పోర్ట్ పార్ట్నర్ను కనుగొనడం ఎంత కష్టమో తెలుసా? చిన్న సామానులకు చాలా ఎక్కువ ఛార్జీలు వస్తాయి. అందుకే నేను Porter వాడతాను. వారి టూ-వీలర్లు 20 కిలోల వరకు మోస్తాయి; కొంచెం ఎక్కువ స్పేస్, శ్రద్ధ కావాలంటే Porter స్కూటర్ కూడా 20 కిలోల సామర్థ్యంతో అందుబాటులో ఉంటుంది. అప్లో కనిపించే ధరే చెల్లించాల్సిన ధర. మా టైటిల్ స్పాన్సర్ Porter గురించి డిస్క్రిప్షన్లోని లింక్ చూడండి.”
**(03:46)** “డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ను ఇప్పటివరకు కలవలేదు కాబట్టి ఇది చాలా ఫాసినేటింగ్. నాకు ఎక్సైట్మెంట్, నర్వస్నెస్, కొంచెం భయం ఉంది.”
“భయపడకు.”
“మీరు చెప్పే ప్రతి విషయం నా మనసులో దృశ్యాలుగా మారుతుంది—అదే భయం.”
“ఒక విషయం ఖచ్చితంగా చెబుతాను: ప్రపంచంలో అత్యంత సురక్షితమైన వ్యక్తులు చనిపోయిన వాళ్లే. వాళ్లు మిమ్మల్ని ఏ విధంగానూ గాయపరచరు. కానీ వాళ్లు ఎలా చనిపోయారో చూడటం నిజంగా భయంకరం.”
**(04:43)** “మీ పని చూశాను. మీరు 5,500 కంటే ఎక్కువ మరణాలను దర్యాప్తు చేశారట.”
“అవును.”
“రెండు దశాబ్దాలు మృతదేహాలు, క్రైమ్ సీన్లను చదివారు. ఆత్మహత్యలు, హత్యలు, ప్రమాదాలు, వ్యక్తిగత ప్రతీకారాలు, విపత్తులు దగ్గరగా చూశారు.”
“అవును.”
“ఈ పని తర్వాత ‘మరణం జీవులు చెప్పలేని కథలను చెబుతుంది’ అని అన్నారు.”
“అవును. Figuring Out కి స్వాగతం, బార్బరా బచర్.”
“ధన్యవాదాలు. ఇక్కడ ఉండటం సంతోషం.”
**(05:31)** “మీరు మొదటిసారి చూసేవారికి డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ అంటే ఏమిటి?”
“అమెరికాలో రెండు వ్యవస్థలు ఉన్నాయి—కొరోనర్ సిస్టమ్, మెడికల్ ఎగ్జామినర్ సిస్టమ్. హింసాత్మక మరణాలు, ఆత్మహత్యలు, ప్రమాదాలు, హత్యలను దర్యాప్తు చేయడం వారి బాధ్యత. సహజ మరణాలను కూడా చూడాలి. ఉదాహరణకు, పెద్ద వయసు స్త్రీ తన అపార్ట్మెంట్లో ఒంటరిగా చనిపోయినట్లయితే, ఏమీ తప్పు జరగలేదని నిర్ధారించడానికి వెళ్తాం.”
**(06:04)** “దీని ఉద్దేశం న్యాయం. ఎవరైనా హత్య చేయబడితే, ఎవరు చేశారో, ఎందుకు చేశారో తెలుసుకుని వారిని పట్టుకోవాలి. మళ్లీ హత్యలు చేయకుండా ఆపాలి. ఫోరెన్సిక్ పాథాలజిస్ట్ ఆటాప్సీ చేసి మరణ కారణాన్ని చెబుతారు. ఉదాహరణకు తలపై తుపాకీ గాయం ఉంటే, కారణం తుపాకీ గాయం. కానీ అది హత్యా, ఆత్మహత్యా, ప్రమాదమా అనేది నా పని.”
**(06:54)** “డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ సీన్కు వెళ్లి మొత్తం సందర్భాన్ని అర్థం చేసుకుంటారు. గది ఎలా ఉంది? అతని జీవితం ఎలా ఉంది? ఎవిడెన్స్ ఎక్కడ ఉంది? గోడలపై రక్తం చిందిందా? సీలింగ్పై బుల్లెట్ గుర్తులు ఉన్నాయా? మృతదేహం నాకు ఏం చెబుతోంది? అంతా ‘ఈ మరణం ఎలా జరిగింది’ అని తెలుసుకోవడానికే.”
**(07:28)** “ఒక యువతి ఆటోమేటిక్ ఆయుధం పట్టుకుని ఉంది, తలపై దగ్గరి దూరం తుపాకీ గాయం ఉంది, గాయంలో గన్పౌడర్ ఉంది—అప్పుడు అది దగ్గరి దూరం నుంచి జరిగిందని తెలుస్తుంది. స్నేహితులు లేదా పొరుగువాళ్లు ‘ఆమెను ఆపడానికి ప్రయత్నించాను’ అని చెబితే, అది ఆత్మహత్యే అని అనిపిస్తుంది.”
**(07:55)** “ఒక యువతి స్నేహితురాలితో ‘నేను ఆత్మహత్య చేసుకుంటా. ఇక భరించలేను’ అని చెప్పింది. బాయ్ఫ్రెండ్ వెళ్లిపోయాడు, ఆమె బాధపడింది. స్నేహితురాలు గన్ తీసుకుంది. అమ్మాయి ‘తిరిగి ఇవ్వు, ఏం చేయను’ అని చెప్పింది. స్నేహితురాలు ఛాంబర్ తీసి గన్ తిరిగి ఇచ్చింది. కానీ బారెల్లో ఒక బుల్లెట్ మిగిలి ఉందని తెలియదు. అమ్మాయి తలపై కాల్చుకుంది. అది స్పష్టమైన ఆత్మహత్య.”
**(08:43)** “మరో కేసులో, న్యూయార్క్లోని హౌస్టన్ స్ట్రీట్లో 17–18 ఏళ్ల యువకుల బృందం వణుకుతూ ఉంది. వారి స్నేహితుడు రోడ్డు మధ్యలో చనిపోయి పడి ఉన్నాడు. అతను కొత్త గన్ కొన్నాడు—చాలా చవకైన, బలహీనమైన 32 రివాల్వర్. ఉదయం కౌబాయ్లా గన్ను వేలిపై తిప్పుతూ ట్రిక్స్ చూపించాడు. గన్ జారి నేలకు పడి, కళ్ల మధ్యలో కాల్చింది. అతని మొదటి కాల్పు అత్యుత్తమ కాల్పు, చివరి కాల్పు కూడా. అది ప్రమాదం.”
**(09:36)** “మేము మొదట నమ్మము—‘వాళ్లు కథ కట్టుతున్నారు’ అని. కానీ ఫుట్పాత్పై కొంచెం సిమెంటు పగిలి, దాని ధూళి గన్ హ్యామర్పై ఉంది. గన్ అలాగే పడిందని తెలిసింది. స్నేహితులు ఏడుస్తూ, వణుకుతూ ఉన్నారు—కథ కట్టలేరు. రెండు గంటల తర్వాత ఒక ట్రక్ డ్రైవర్ ‘ఉదయం ఆ పిల్లాడు గన్తో ఆడుకుంటున్నాడని చూశాను’ అని చెప్పాడు. అది నిర్ధారించింది.”
**(10:22)** “అది హత్య అయితే, మరో స్థాయి ఎవిడెన్స్ కావాలి. ఎవరు చేశారు, ఎప్పుడు చేశారు, ఎందుకు చేశారు అని చూడాలి. నేను సీన్ను దర్యాప్తు చేస్తాను. పోలీసులతో దగ్గరగా పని చేస్తాను, కానీ ఇది స్వతంత్ర దర్యాప్తు. కొన్నిసార్లు వాళ్లు ‘ఇది హత్య కాదు బార్బరా’ అంటారు; నేను ‘అవును, హత్యే’ అంటాను.”
**(10:48)** “ఎవిడెన్స్ సేకరించి, ఫోటోలు తీసి, కొలతలు తీసి రిపోర్ట్ రాసి, మర్నాడు ఆటాప్సీ చేసే ఫోరెన్సిక్ పాథాలజిస్ట్కు ఇస్తాను. అప్పుడు వారు సమాచారంతో ఆటాప్సీ చేస్తారు. ‘తుపాకీ గాయం, మరణ విధానం హత్య’ అని నిర్ధారిస్తారు. మేము సేకరించిన సమాచారాన్ని పోలీసులకు ఇస్తాం; వారు నిందితుడిని వెతుకుతారు. ఇది నా పని—ఫాసినేటింగ్ కూడా, చాలా భారం కూడా.”
**(11:17)** “మరణ స్థలంలోకి వెళ్లిన మొదటి 30 సెకన్లలో ఏం చూస్తారు? ప్రపంచంలో చాలామంది వదిలేసే విషయాలు ఏమిటి?”
“చాలా మంచి ప్రశ్న. మొదట మృతదేహాన్ని చూడను. తలుపు లోపల నిలబడి మొత్తం సీన్ను, గది భావాన్ని, వాతావరణాన్ని గ్రహిస్తాను. ఇది ఎలాంటి వ్యక్తి? ఎలాంటి జీవితం? ఎలాంటి ఇల్లు? వారు ఎలా జీవించారో చూడాలి. తర్వాత బూటీలు, కేశ రక్షణ కవర్లు ధరించి చుట్టూ నడిచి ఫోటోలు తీస్తాను. తర్వాతే మృతదేహం వైపు వెళ్తాను.”
**(12:52)** “క్రైమ్ సీన్ టీమ్ గోర్ల ముద్రలు వంటివి చేస్తుంటుంది. ‘రెడీ’ అని వారిని పిలుస్తాను. షర్ట్ తీసి కత్తి లేదా తుపాకీ గాయం చూస్తాను. గోర్ల కింద మాంసం, వెంట్రుకలు, రక్తం ఉందో చూస్తాను. మరణ సమయాన్ని నిర్ణయిస్తాను—అది సైన్స్ అంతే ఆర్ట్ కూడా.”
**(13:12)** “రిగర్ మోర్టిస్—శరీరం గట్టిపడటం—సుమారు 8 గంటల్లో జరుగుతుంది. మొదట దవడ, వేళ్ల వంటి చిన్న కండరాలు, తర్వాత కాళ్ల వంటి పెద్ద కండరాలు గట్టిపడతాయి. 8–10 గంటల తర్వాత శరీరం చాలా గట్టిగా ఉంటుంది; లేపితే వంగదు. అలా పూర్తిగా గట్టిగా ఉంటే సుమారు 8 గంటల క్రితం జరిగిందని అర్థం.”
**(13:39)** “తర్వాత లివిడిటీ చూస్తాను—రక్తం స్థిరపడటం. మృతదేహం వీపు మీద పడి ఉంటే రక్తం కిందికి వెళ్తుంది. 8–10 గంటల తర్వాత అది స్థిరమవుతుంది. వీపు నీలంగా ఉండి, ఎడమవైపు ఎర్రగా ఉంటే—మొదట పక్కగా పడి, తర్వాత వీపు మీద పడేశారని తెలుస్తుంది.”
**(14:29)** “తర్వాత శరీర ఉష్ణోగ్రత తీస్తాను. శరీరం గంటకు సుమారు 1.5 డిగ్రీల ఫారన్హీట్ ఉష్ణాన్ని కోల్పోతుంది. సగటు 70–72 డిగ్రీల గదిలో గాలి ఉష్ణోగ్రత, శరీర ఉష్ణోగ్రత తీస్తాను. సాధారణంగా రెక్టల్ ఉష్ణోగ్రత ఎక్కువ ఖచ్చితం. శరీరం 98 నుంచి 90కి పడితే 8 డిగ్రీలు కోల్పోయింది; దాన్ని 1.5తో భాగిస్తే సుమారు సమయం వస్తుంది. కానీ అది చాలదు—కామన్ సెన్స్ కూడా కావాలి.”
**(15:29)** “నేను కొత్త ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్గా ఉన్నప్పుడు ఒక పెద్ద వ్యక్తి చనిపోయిన గదిలోకి వెళ్లాను. కుటుంబం మొత్తం ఏడుస్తోంది. పరీక్షించి బయటకు వచ్చాక, ‘అతను ఎప్పుడు చనిపోయాడో చెప్పండి; ఆ సమయంలో ప్రత్యేక చర్చి సేవ చేయాలి’ అని అడిగారు. లెక్కలు వేసి ‘అర్ధరాత్రి దగ్గర చనిపోయాడు’ అన్నాను. కానీ వాళ్లు ‘అర్ధరాత్రి 12 గంటలకు, 12:30కి మాతో మాట్లాడారు’ అన్నారు. అప్పుడు గుర్తొచ్చింది—అత్యంత ముఖ్యమైన ప్రశ్న: చనిపోయిన వ్యక్తిని చివరిసారి ఎప్పుడు జీవంతో చూశారు లేదా మాట్లాడారు? ఈ లెక్కల్లో చాలా మార్పు ఉంటుంది.”
**(16:14)** “ఆ తర్వాత సరైన ప్రశ్న అడగడం నేర్చుకున్నాను. ఎవరూ లేకపోతే వార్తాపత్రికలు చూడవచ్చు—ఇంటి ముందు శనివారం–ఆదివారం పత్రికలు తీసుకోకుండా ఉంటే, శుక్రవారం చనిపోయి ఉండవచ్చు. ఆహారం డెలివరీ రసీదుపై టైమ్స్టాంప్ ఉంటుంది. కామన్ సెన్స్ వాడాలి.”
**(16:54)** “అంటే మరణ సమయాన్ని ఖచ్చితంగా తెలుసుకోవడానికి నిర్దిష్ట పద్ధతి లేదా?”
“ఎవరైనా చూసి ఉంటే లేదా వీడియోలో ఉంటే తప్ప లేదు. సినిమాల్లో చూపించేది అబద్ధం. కొన్ని ట్రూ క్రైమ్ షోలు నన్ను చాలా ఇరిటేట్ చేస్తాయి. ఫోరెన్సిక్ పాథాలజిస్ట్ ఆటాప్సీ టేబుల్ వదిలి సీన్కు వస్తారా? వారికి మూడు కేసులు ఉంటాయి. అంతేకాకుండా వేలు పెట్టి ‘ఇది 9 ఎంఎం బుల్లెట్’ అని చెబుతారు. ఏం చేశారు—రంధ్రంలో వేలు పెట్టి కొలిచారా? ‘ఈ రోజు మధ్యాహ్నం 4:30 దగ్గర చనిపోయాడు’ అని చెబుతారు. ఎందుకు? వాచీలో బుల్లెట్ గుచ్చి, వాచీ 4:30 వద్ద ఆగిపోయిందా? షోలు అంతా తప్పుగా చూపిస్తాయి. నా షో *The Death Investigator* లో మేము ప్రతిదీ ఖచ్చితంగా, సరిగా వివరిస్తాం. మ్యాజిక్ ట్రిక్స్ లేవు.”
**(18:23)** “శరీర ఉష్ణోగ్రత, గది ఉష్ణోగ్రత, లివిడిటీ ఫోటోలు తీసుకుని అన్నీ లెక్కించి ‘11:45 a.m.’ అని చెప్పే యాప్ను డిజైన్ చేయాలని ఎన్నో ఏళ్లుగా ఆలోచిస్తున్నాను. ఇప్పటివరకు ఏమీ లేదు.”
“ఖచ్చితమైన ఫార్ములా లేదా?”
“లేదు. అది అంచనా.”
“ఎంత దగ్గరగా చెప్పగలరు?”
“నేను ఇప్పుడు ‘మధ్యాహ్నం 2 గంటలకు’ అని అనను. ‘మధ్యాహ్నం 12 నుంచి 4 గంటల మధ్య’ అని నాలుగు గంటల విండో ఇస్తాను. అది కూడా మోసం చేయగలదు.”
**(19:54)** “పోలీసులు వచ్చి వస్తువులు తాకితే అది మోసం చేస్తుంది. కొన్నిసార్లు అపార్ట్మెంట్లోకి వెళ్తే చాలా చల్లగా ఉంటుంది. ‘ఇక్కడ ఎందుకు ఇంత చల్లగా ఉంది?’ ‘వాసన వచ్చింది కాబట్టి కిటికీలు తీశాం’ అంటారు. ‘ఒరేయ్—శరీర ఉష్ణోగ్రతను ఎలా లెక్కిస్తాను? అంతా పాడు చేశారు’ అని అంటాను. అందుకే మొదటి ప్రశ్న: నేను రాకముందు నుంచి ఇప్పటి వరకు ఏం మారింది? కిటికీలు తీశారా, మృతదేహాన్ని కదిలించారా అంటే మొత్తం లెక్క పాడవుతుంది.”
**(20:28)** “ఎవిడెన్స్ పాడు కాకుండా మృతదేహాన్ని ఎలా తిప్పుతారు?”
“సులభం కాదు. మొదట బట్టలు తీయను—బట్టలపై ఎవిడెన్స్ ఉండవచ్చు. ఒక వ్యక్తి వీధిలో కాల్చబడ్డాడు. కాల్చినవాడు ‘అతను నా వైపు పరుగెత్తుతూ వచ్చాడు’ అన్నాడు. కానీ జాకెట్ కాలర్పై బుల్లెట్ గుర్తు, చేతిపై బుల్లెట్ రంధ్రం ఉంది. వాటిని సరిపెట్టి చూస్తే—అతను నడుస్తూ ఉన్నప్పుడు బుల్లెట్ జాకెట్ ద్వారా, కాలర్ పక్కగా, మెడలోకి వెళ్లింది. అంటే అతను నిందితుడి వైపు పరుగెత్తలేదు. ఎవిడెన్స్ను పాడు చేయకూడదు.”
**(21:59)** “వీపు చూడాలి కాబట్టి బట్టలు పాడు కాకుండా చాలా జాగ్రత్తగా తిప్పుతాను. కొన్నిసార్లు మృతదేహాన్ని తిప్పినప్పుడు వెనుక చర్మం అంచున ఉన్న బుల్లెట్ బయటకు వస్తుంది—అది మంచిది కాదు. కాబట్టి చాలా మెత్తగా తిప్పి, బట్టల కింద చూస్తాను. ఆటాప్సీ రూమ్లో ఇంకా ఎక్కువ తెలుసుకోగలం.”
**(22:27)** “తుపాకీ గాయం ఎందుకు ముఖ్యం? బుల్లెట్ మాంసంలోకి వెళ్లినప్పుడు చర్మం లోపలికి లాగబడి చిన్న అబ్రేజన్ రింగ్ ఏర్పడుతుంది. నేరుగా కాల్చితే అది పూర్తి వృత్తాకారంగా ఉంటుంది. పైనుంచి, కింది నుంచి లేదా పక్క నుంచి కాల్చితే ఆ రింగ్ వంపుగా ఉంటుంది. గోడలపై బుల్లెట్ తగిలిన గుర్తులు చూస్తే, కాల్చినవాడు ఎక్కడ నిలబడ్డాడో, బాధితుడి స్థానం ఏమిటో చెప్పగలను.”
**(23:20)** “దగ్గరగా కాల్చితే గాయంలో గన్పౌడర్ కనిపిస్తుంది. బారెల్ నుంచి వచ్చే గ్రీజీ పొగ—ఫౌలింగ్—కనిపిస్తుంది. ముఖంపై కాల్చిన గన్పౌడర్ చుక్కలు ఉంటే సుమారు 8–10 అంగుళాల దూరం నుంచి కాల్చినట్లు తెలుస్తుంది. గన్పౌడర్ చుక్కలు లేకపోయినా, చుట్టూ గ్రీజీ పొగ ఉంటే కొంచెం వెనక్కి నిలబడి కాల్చినట్లు తెలుస్తుంది.”
**(24:05)** “మృతదేహాన్ని ఎలా తిప్పుతారో నాపై డెమో చేయండి.”
“నేను పడుతాను.”
“శరీరం గట్టిగా ఉంటే సులభం. మీరు పూర్తిగా రిలాక్స్ అవ్వండి—డెడ్ వెయిట్లా ఉండండి. ఒక కాలును మరో కాలిపై పెట్టి, భుజం వద్ద చేతిని పెట్టి, తుంటి కింద, భుజం కింద రెండు వేళ్లు పెట్టి మెత్తగా తిప్పుతాను. ఎవిడెన్స్ పోకుండా, బట్టలు కదలకుండా తిప్పగలం. షర్ట్ కింద, కాళ్లలో గాయాలు ఉన్నాయో చూస్తాను.”
**(24:51)** “చిన్న స్త్రీ కూడా బరువైన పురుషుడిని తిప్పగలదా?”
“అవును. దూరం నుంచి కాల్చిన దాని ఆధారంగా సంబంధం లేదా ఉద్దేశాన్ని చెప్పగలరా?”
“కొంత వరకు అవును. కాంటాక్ట్ వౌండ్ అయితే ఆత్మహత్య లేదా ఎగ్జిక్యూషన్ స్టైల్ హత్య అని తెలుస్తుంది. తలకు గన్ ఆనించి కాల్చితే గాయం లోపల గన్పౌడర్, స్టాంప్ లాంటి గుర్తు ఉంటుంది. గన్ బారెల్పై గీత ఉంటే అది చర్మంపై కనిపిస్తుంది.”
**(25:52)** “నా షోలో చూసిన Carnegie Deli మాసకర్ కేసులో అరెస్ట్ అయిన వ్యక్తి ‘గన్ అక్సిడెంట్గా కాల్చింది, నేను వణుకుతున్నాను’ అన్నాడు. కాదు—నువ్వు అబద్ధం చెబుతున్నావు. తలపై కాంటాక్ట్ గుర్తు ఉంది; నువ్వు పూర్తిగా స్థిరంగా ఉన్నావు. నాకు ఏడ్చవద్దు.”
**(26:17)** “దగ్గరి సంబంధీకులు దగ్గరగా కాల్చతారా, దూరంగా కాల్చతారా? ప్రతీకారం, బిజినెస్ కిల్లింగ్, డ్రగ్ కిల్లింగ్ సాధారణంగా దగ్గరగా జరుగుతుంది—వ్యక్తి చనిపోయాడని నిర్ధారించుకోవాలి.”
“స్నైపర్ చాలా impersonal. దూరం నుంచి జరిగి ఉండవచ్చు, కానీ ఎంత దూరమో చెప్పలేను. 4–5 అడుగుల తర్వాత నాకు ఏమీ కనిపించదు. రైఫిల్ లేదా ఆటోమేటిక్ ఆయుధం అయి ఉండాలి.”
**(27:32)** “హత్యలు మూడు రకాలు: బిజినెస్, పర్సనల్, మరియు ఫన్ కోసం చేసేవి—సీరియల్ కిల్లర్లు. బిజినెస్ కిల్లింగ్ చాలా ఎఫిషియెంట్: లోపలికి వచ్చి తలపై కాల్చి వెళ్లిపోతారు. DNA లేదు, కాంటాక్ట్ లేదు, గోర్ల ముద్రలు లేవు. కానీ శరీరంపై ఎక్కువ పొడుపులు, కొట్టుకోవడం, ముఖంపై దాడి, గొంతు మెలితిప్పడం ఉంటే—అది కోపంతో చేసిన హత్య. ఆ వ్యక్తిని తెలిసిన వాడే చేసి ఉంటాడు. ప్రతీకారం కావచ్చు, ప్రేమ కావచ్చు.”
**(28:02)** “నేను చూసిన అత్యంత క్రూరమైన హత్యల్లో ఒకటి: భార్యను పిచ్చిగా ప్రేమించే వ్యక్తి. ఆమె అందంగా, ఆభరణాలతో ఉండేది. అతను ఆమెను అమితంగా ప్రేమించేవాడు, కానీ అతిగా అనుమానించేవాడు. ఒక రోజు బిల్డింగ్ మేనేజర్ ఆమెను చూసి ‘హలో’ అని పలకరించాడు. అతను ఆమె అతనితో ఫ్లర్ట్ చేస్తోందని భావించి పిచ్చివాడయ్యాడు. పొరుగువాళ్లు అతని అరుపులు విన్నారు—‘అతనితో ఎందుకు మాట్లాడావ్?’”
**(29:20)** “ఆమె కేవలం ‘హలో’ అని చెప్పింది—అంతే. అతను ఆమెను ఎన్నోసార్లు పొడిచాడు. సీలింగ్, గోడలు, నేల—అంతా రక్తం. అతను కిటికీ నుంచి దూకేశాడు; రెండో అంతస్తు మాత్రమే. రక్తపు కుక్కలు ఆమె రక్తాన్ని అనుసరించి అతన్ని పార్క్లో పట్టుకున్నాయి. అతని మీద ఆమె రక్తం అంతా ఉంది.”
**(30:20)** “ఇది నన్ను కన్ఫ్యూజ్ చేస్తుంది. నేను ప్రేమించాను, కానీ ఎప్పుడూ అలా కాదు.”
“అది ప్రేమ కాదు; అది అబ్సెషన్, సైకోటిక్ ప్రవర్తన.”
“అవును. అది ప్రేమ కాదు.”
“అతను ఆమెను కేవలం కాల్చలేదు.”
“లేదు. అతను తన గుండె పగిలిందని ఆమెను శిక్షించాలనుకున్నాడు. అతని సైకోసిస్లో ఆమె వేరే వ్యక్తిని ప్రేమిస్తోందని, అతన్ని వదిలేస్తోందని అనిపించింది. నొప్పి, భయం అంత ఎక్కువై ఆమెను నాశనం చేయాలనుకున్నాడు—కేవలం చంపడం కాదు, నాశనం చేయడం.”
**(31:21)** “కరోటిడ్ ఆర్టరీలను పొడిస్తే రక్తం అధిక పీడనంతో గోడలపై చిమ్ముతుంది. ప్రతిసారి కత్తిని లోపలికి పెట్టి తిరిగి లాగినప్పుడు రక్తం గోడలపై, సీలింగ్పై పడుతుంది. సుమారు 80 సార్లు పొడిచాడు—ఇంక పొడవడానికి ఏమీ లేదు. నా జీవితంలో చూసిన అత్యంత రక్తపాత సీన్ అది. ఆమె త్వరగా చనిపోయి ఉండాలని ఆశిస్తాను.”
**(32:20)** “క్రైమ్ సీన్లో మృతదేహం తప్ప అత్యంత ముఖ్యమైనది ఏమిటి?”
“సాక్షులు. కొన్నిసార్లు అబద్ధం చెబుతారు, కొన్నిసార్లు నిజం చెబుతారు, కొన్నిసార్లు అతిశయోక్తి చేస్తారు. కానీ షాక్లో ఉన్నవారి నుంచి ఎక్కువగా సరైన కథ వస్తుంది. ‘ఏం విన్నావ్?’ ‘తెలియదు, ఫ్లోర్పై దూకుతున్నాడని అనుకున్నాను. పెద్ద శబ్దం విన్నాను.’ ‘ఎప్పుడు?’ ‘2 గంటలకు—నా కొత్త షో మొదలైంది కాబట్టి తెలుసు.’ ఇలాంటి వివరాలు సహాయపడతాయి. మృతదేహం అబద్ధం చెప్పదు; అది ఉన్నది చెబుతుంది.”
**(33:14)** “గది దోపిడీకి గురైందా? నగలు లేదా డబ్బు కోసం వెతికారా? లేదా అది నకిలీ క్రైమ్ సీన్నా? హంతకుడు దొంగలు వచ్చినట్లు కనిపించేలా డ్రాయర్లు తీసి, బట్టలు చల్లి స్టేజ్ చేస్తారు. దాన్ని ‘స్టేజ్డ్ క్రైమ్ సీన్’ అంటాం. ఒక డ్రాయర్లో బంగారు కంకణం ఉంటే—దొంగ ఎందుకు తీసుకోలేదు? ఇటీవల ఒక కేసులో కోట్ జేబులో సుమారు $16,000 ఉంది; వాళ్లు డబ్బు కూడా తీసుకోలేదు. దొంగల నాటకం చేస్తే అంత తెలివిగా చేయకూడదు.”
**(34:32)** “సినిమాల్లో క్యాసినో లేదా బ్యాంక్ దోపిడీ చేసే తెలివైన నేరస్థులు చూస్తాం. కానీ హత్య చేయడానికి వచ్చేవాళ్లు అంత తెలివైనవాళ్లు కారు. గోర్ల ముద్రలు తుడవడం, ఆహారం తినకపోవడం—DNA మిగులుతుంది కాబట్టి—వంటి కొన్ని విషయాలు మాత్రమే తెలుసు.”
**(35:19)** “మృతదేహం తప్ప మీరు తప్పనిసరిగా చూసే మూడు విషయాలు చెప్పండి.”
“మొదటిది మానవ సంపర్క ఆధారాలు—DNA, గోర్ల ముద్రలు. రక్తపు సీన్లో హాల్వేలో రక్తపు చుక్కలు ఉంటే, అవి మృతదేహం నుంచి రాలేదు. హంతకుడు కత్తితో పొడిచేటప్పుడు ఎముక తగిలి చేతిని కోసుకుని, బాత్రూమ్లో కడిగి బ్యాండ్-ఏయిడ్ పెట్టుకుంటాడు. కానీ నేలపై ఒక రక్తపు చుక్క మిగులుతుంది. నా షోలో ఇలాంటి కేసు చేశాం—ఒకే చుక్క రక్తం కేసును పరిష్కరించింది.”
**(36:14)** “టెలిఫోన్, డోర్ నాబ్ వంటి చోట్ల గోర్ల ముద్రలు వెతుకుతాం. నేరస్థుడు గ్లవ్స్ లేదా టవల్తో డోర్ నాబ్ పట్టుకుంటాడు, కానీ తలుపు తోపడినప్పుడు డోర్ సిల్ను తాకుతాడు—అక్కడే ముద్రలు వెతుకుతాం. రెండోది ఇల్లు యథార్థ దోపిడీనా, నకిలీ సీన్నా అనేది. ఏమి లేదు అనేది కూడా ముఖ్యం. ఉదాహరణకు, ప్రభుత్వ ప్రాజెక్ట్పై పనిచేసే శాస్త్రవేత్త కాల్చబడ్డాడు; గోర్ల ముద్రలు లేవు, కానీ కంప్యూటర్ లేదు. అప్పుడు అది హై-లెవెల్ బిజినెస్ కిల్లింగ్—అతని సమాచారం కావాలని చేసిన హత్య అని తెలుస్తుంది.”
**(38:11)** “అంటే ఉన్నది మాత్రమే కాదు, లేనిది కూడా చూడాలి.”
“అవును. ఇది ఒక క్లాస్గా నేర్పించాలి.”
“మరణం తర్వాత నిమిషం నిమిషానికి శరీరానికి ఏం జరుగుతుంది? 6 గంటల తర్వాత, 24 గంటల తర్వాత ఏం జరుగుతుంది?”
**(38:43)** “మరణం తక్షణమైతే—ఉదాహరణకు తలపై నుంచి తుపాకీ బుల్లెట్ వెళ్లిపోతే—గుండె రక్తాన్ని పంప్ చేయదు. కాబట్టి తల నుంచి రక్తం లీక్ అవుతుంది. చుట్టూ కొంత రక్తం ఉంటుంది. తర్వాత శరీరం లోపల ఎంజైమ్స్ శరీరాన్ని జీర్ణించడం మొదలవుతుంది. కణాల గోడలు పగిలి, ముక్కు నుంచి ద్రవాలు కారడం మొదలవుతుంది.”
**(39:52)** “లివర్ మోర్టిస్ అదేనా?”
“లేదు. అది సాధారణ విఘటన ప్రక్రియ—శరీరం భూమిలో కలిసిపోవడానికి స్వయంగా జీర్ణించుకోవడం. పొట్టలో, పేగుల్లో ఉండే బ్యాక్టీరియా సాధారణంగా జీర్ణక్రియలో సహాయపడతాయి. మరణం తర్వాత అవి స్వేచ్ఛగా అంతర్గత అవయవాలను జీర్ణించడం మొదలుపెడతాయి. దాని వల్ల వాయువులు ఏర్పడతాయి.”
**(40:24)** “మొదటి గంటలో కొంత ద్రవం కారుతుంది, రక్తం లీక్ అవుతుంది, జీర్ణక్రియ మొదలవుతుంది. వాయువులు పేరుకుపోతాయి. వాతావరణం కూడా ప్రభావితం చేస్తుంది—వేడిగా ఉంటే వేగంగా జరుగుతుంది; చల్లగా ఉంటే ఫ్రిజ్లా బ్యాక్టీరియా నెమ్మదిస్తాయి. వాయువుల వల్ల శరీరం ఉబ్బడం మొదలవుతుంది. అది అందంగా ఉండదు—భయంకరంగా ఉంటుంది. పొట్ట ఉబ్బుతుంది, కళ్ల రెపైన్లు ఉబ్బుతాయి. చర్మం కుళ్లడం మొదలవుతుంది. అప్పుడు వాసన చాలా భారంగా ఉంటుంది—దాన్ని పదాల్లో వివరించడం సాధ్యం కాదు.”
**(39:05)** “శరీరం చుట్టూ కొంత రక్తం ఉంటుంది. ఆ రక్తం బయటకు వచ్చిన తర్వాత శరీరం లోపల జరిగే ప్రక్రియ ఏమిటంటే—మన సొంత శరీరమే మనల్ని జీర్ణించడం లాంటిది. మన శరీరంలో ఎంజైమ్స్ ఉంటాయి; మరణం జరిగిన తర్వాత అవి కణాల గోడలను జీర్ణించడం మొదలుపెడతాయి. దాంతో ముక్కు నుంచి ద్రవాలు కారడం మొదలవుతుంది. ఇప్పుడు రక్తం, ద్రవాలు రెండూ ఉంటాయి.”
**(39:52)** “అది లివర్ మోర్టిస్నా?”
“లేదు. అది మృతదేహం స్వయంగా జీర్ణించుకుని, విఘటనం చెంది భూమిలో కలిసిపోయే సాధారణ ప్రక్రియ. అది సహజమే. పొట్టలో, పేగుల్లో ఉండే బ్యాక్టీరియా సాధారణంగా శరీరం నియంత్రణలో ఉంటాయి. జీర్ణక్రియకు సహాయపడే అంత మాత్రమే పెరుగుతాయి. మరణం తర్వాత అవి స్వేచ్ఛగా పని చేసి, అంతర్గత అవయవాలను జీర్ణించడం మొదలుపెడతాయి.”
**(40:24)** “దాని వల్ల వాయువులు ఏర్పడతాయి. మొదటి గంటలో కొంత ద్రవం కారుతుంది, రక్తం లీక్ అవుతుంది, జీర్ణక్రియ మొదలవుతుంది. కాలక్రమేణా వాయువులు పేరుకుపోతాయి. వాతావరణం కూడా ప్రభావం చూపుతుంది—వేడిగా ఉంటే వేగంగా జరుగుతుంది; చల్లగా ఉంటే ఫ్రిజ్లా బ్యాక్టీరియా నెమ్మదిస్తాయి. వాయువుల వల్ల శరీరం ఉబ్బడం మొదలవుతుంది.”
**(41:01)** “అది అందంగా ఉండదు—నిజంగా భయంకరంగా ఉంటుంది. పొట్ట ఉబ్బుతుంది, కళ్ల రెపైన్లు ఉబ్బుతాయి. శరీరంలో మృదువైన భాగాలన్నీ వాయువుల వల్ల ఉబ్బుతాయి. తర్వాత చర్మం కుళ్లడం మొదలవుతుంది. ఇప్పుడు రక్తం, ప్లాస్మా మాత్రమే కాదు—ఆకుపచ్చ రంగు ద్రవాలు కూడా వస్తాయి. అప్పుడు వాసన చాలా భారంగా ఉంటుంది.”
**(41:37)** “దాన్ని పదాల్లో వివరించడం నాకు సాధ్యం కాదు. ప్రయత్నించాను, కానీ ఆ వాసనకు సరిపోయే పదం లేదు. అది నాకు ‘దూరంగా ఉండు’ అనే హెచ్చరిక లాగా అనిపిస్తుంది. శరీరం తడి విఘటనం (wet decomposition) ద్వారా వెళ్తుంది. కానీ ఎడారిలో చనిపోతే కొంత రక్తం కారుతుంది, ద్రవాలు కారవు—ఎందుకంటే వేడి, పొడి సూర్యకిరణాల వల్ల బ్యాక్టీరియా పని చేయలేకపోతాయి. శరీరంలోని నీరు అంతా ఆవిరైపోతుంది; మనం దాదాపు 60% నీరే. తర్వాత చిన్న జంతువులు వచ్చి మిగిలినవి తింటాయి. చివరికి చర్మం లాంటి పొరతో ఎముకల అస్థిపంజరం మిగులుతుంది.”
**(42:34)** “న్యూయార్క్ లోయర్ ఈస్ట్ సైడ్లో ఒక కేసు ఎదురైంది. 70లు, 80లు, 90ల ప్రారంభంలో అనేక భవనాలు వదిలేసి ఉండేవి. ప్రజలు అక్కడ దొంగచాటుగా నివసించేవారు; వీధి దీపాల నుంచి కరెంట్ దొంగిలించి, ఆహారం తెచ్చుకుని జీవించేవారు. ఒక భవనాన్ని కొనాలనుకున్నవారు గదిలో చూస్తే—పడకపై ఒక వ్యక్తి పడి ఉన్నాడు. అతను చిన్నగా చిరిగిన బట్టలతో ఉన్న అస్థిపంజరం మాత్రమే. చర్మం తోలు లాగా ఉంది. అంతర్గత అవయవాలు అంతా పోయాయి.”
**(43:25)** “పోలీసు అధికారిని అడిగాను—‘అవయవాలు పూర్తిగా ఎందుకు పోయాయి? చర్మం మాత్రం ఉంది.’ అతను ‘ఇక్కడ వేడి లేదు, చాలా చల్లగా ఉంది. ఎలుకలు లోపలికి వెళ్లి, వేడి కోసం అవయవాలను తినేశాయి’ అన్నాడు. మిగిలింది చర్మం, ఎముకలు మాత్రమే. అతను ఎంత కాలం అక్కడ ఉన్నాడో చెప్పలేను—మూడు వారాలా, ఐదు నెలలా అని చెప్పలేను. కానీ చాలా కాలం అని మాత్రమే చెప్పగలను.”
**(43:47)** “శరీరం ఒక సేంద్రీయ పదార్థంగా భూమిలో కలిసిపోవాలని నేను నమ్ముతాను. నేను వ్యక్తిగతంగా పూడ్చిపెట్టబడి ఒక చెట్టుగా మారాలని కోరుకుంటాను. కొన్ని స్మశానాల్లో గుంట తవ్వి, వ్యక్తిని గోణి సంచిలో పెట్టి పూడ్చి, పైన చక్కటి చెట్టు నాటుతారట. అలా వెళ్లడం నాకు ఇష్టం. మేము మా కుక్కతో కూడా అలాగే చేశాం.”
**(44:21)** “నిజమా? చాలా బాగుంది.”
“అక్కడ ఒక చెట్టు ఉంది. ప్రతిసారి ఆ చెట్టును చూసినప్పుడు అతన్ని గుర్తు చేసుకుంటాం. అతను ఆ చెట్టులోనే ఉన్నాడనే నమ్మకం ఉంటుంది.”
“అది చాలా అందమైన ఆలోచన. నా చెట్టు పక్కన ప్రజలు వచ్చి కూర్చొని, పిక్నిక్ చేసి, నన్ను సంగతి అడిగితే నాకు చాలా ఇష్టం.”
**(45:08)** “మీరు ఆ వాసనను వివరించలేకపోయారు. ప్రయత్నిస్తే—మరణం ఏ వాసన వస్తుంది?”
“కుళ్లని, కొత్తగా ఉన్న శరీరం అయితే—అది మట్టి వాసన, సేంద్రీయ వాసన, వెచ్చని వాసన లాగా ఉంటుంది. పాత అమ్మమ్మ వాసన లాగా. చర్మం మృదువుగా, శరీరం చిన్నదిగా ఉండి, కొంచెం పాత వాసన వస్తుంది. అది హార్మోన్లు లేకుండా మానవ శరీర వాసన.”
**(45:44)** “కానీ కుళ్లిపోయిన తర్వాత—కుక్క మరియు మనిషి మలాన్ని మిక్సీలో వేసి, స్ట్రాబెర్రీ ఐస్క్రీమ్, తేనె, వెల్లుల్లి, అడవి నేల కుళ్లిన ఆకుల వాసన కలిపి మోసి వాసన చూడండి. అది కూడా కుళ్లిన మృతదేహ వాసన దగ్గరకు రాదు.”
**(46:19)** “చాలా ఖచ్చితంగా చెప్పారు. ఎందుకో వాసన ఊపాలని అనిపించింది.”
“నిజం. అంత చెడ్డదైనా, కుళ్లిన మృతదేహ వాసన ఇంకా చెడ్డది. 2004 క్రిస్మస్ సునామీ తర్వాత థాయిలాండ్లో పనిచేశాను. మృతదేహాలను దేవాలయాలకు తీసుకెళ్లి నేలపై వరుసగా పడేశారు. వేడి సూర్యుడు, తేమ—మృతదేహాలు వేగంగా కుళ్లిపోయాయి. వాసన భరించలేనంత ఉంది. నోటి ద్వారా చిన్న శ్వాసలు తీసుకునేలా నేర్చుకుంటారు. Vicks Vapor Rub లేదా మెంతాల్ వాడమని కొందరు చెబుతారు—కానీ అది మెంతాల్ వాసనను ద్వేషించేలా చేస్తుంది. డ్రై ఐస్ వాడారు, కానీ అది ఇంకా చెడ్డది చేసింది—శరీరాలు తడిగా మారాయి. అది చాలా విషాదకరమైన అనుభవం; నా మనసు నుంచి సులభంగా పోదు.”
**(47:51)** “మృతదేహం కదలగలదా, శబ్దం చేస్తుందా, కళ్లు కొంచెం తెరుచుకుంటాయా, శ్వాస తీస్తున్నట్లు అనిపిస్తుందా?”
“నాకు జరిగింది. చాలా భయంకరం. నిజంగా చనిపోయిన తర్వాత కూడా శరీరం లోపల వాయువులు ఉంటాయి. ఒక కార్గో వ్యాన్లో వ్యర్థాల మధ్య ఒక పెద్ద, బరువైన వ్యక్తి చనిపోయి ఉన్నాడు. నేను వ్యర్థాల మధ్య నుంచి వెళ్లి అతన్ని కనుగొన్నాను. అతను కుళ్లిపోతున్నాడు. అతన్ని కదిలించగానే గొంతు నుంచి వాయువు బయటకు వచ్చింది. నేను అరిచి, వ్యాన్ నుంచి పరుగెత్తి పోలీసు అధికారి చేతుల్లోకి దూకాను. అతను నవ్వుతూ ‘ఏమయింది బార్బరా? అతను బతికేశాడా?’ అని అడిగాడు. ‘అతను నాకు గురక వేశాడు’ అన్నాను. నా జీవితంలో అంత భయపడినది లేదు.”
**(48:48)** “ఒక కథ ఉంది—బహుశా నిజం కాకపోవచ్చు, కానీ పోలీసులు ఎన్నో ఏళ్లుగా చెబుతున్నారు. ఒక కొత్త పోలీసుకు ‘బార్బరా రానంత వరకు మృతదేహాన్ని కాపలా కాయ్’ అని చెప్పారు. అతను భయంతో కూర్చున్నాడు. మృతదేహం కొద్దిగా కదిలి, వాయువు శబ్దం చేసింది. అతను భయపడి రెండుసార్లు కాల్చేశాడు—అది జాంబీ అని భావించి చనిపోయిన శరీరాన్ని కాల్చాడు. తర్వాత అతన్ని పోలీస్ డిపార్ట్మెంట్ నుంచి తొలగించారు. ఈ పనికి కావాల్సిన ధైర్యం అతనికి లేదు.”
**(50:14)** “నా సహోద్యోగి కెన్నీ ఒక స్త్రీ ఆత్మహత్యకు మాత్రలు తీసుకున్న సీన్కు వెళ్లాడు. ఆమె నేలపై పడి ఉంది. ఆంబులెన్స్ వచ్చి చనిపోయిందని ప్రకటించింది. అతను పరీక్షిస్తూ షర్ట్ తీసి, నోరు చూస్తుండగా ఆమె కళ్లు తెరిచింది—ఆమె నిజంగా బతికే ఉంది. ఆమె వాలియం తీసుకుంది; గుండె చప్పుడు చాలా నెమ్మదిగా ఉంది. ఆంబులెన్స్ సిబ్బంది త్వరపడి నాడీని సరిగా తనిఖీ చేయలేదు. కెన్నీ భయంతో వెనక్కి దూకాడు. ఆమెను మళ్లీ ఆసుపత్రికి తీసుకెళ్లారు, కానీ మర్నాడు ఆమె చనిపోయింది. బతికి ఉంది, చనిపోయింది, మళ్లీ బతికింది—కెన్నీ చాలా ట్రామటైజ్ అయ్యాడు.”
**(51:54)** “ఆత్మహత్యా హత్యా అని ఎలా తేల్చుకుంటారు? ఎవరైనా గొంతు పిండి, తర్వాత ఆత్మహత్యలా కనిపించేలా ఉరివేస్తే?”
“ఉత్తమ ఉదాహరణ ఉరి. ఆత్మహత్య చేసుకునేవాళ్లు కుర్చీ మీద నిలబడి దూకాల్సిన అవసరం లేదు. ఉరి గొంతు విరిచే స్థాయిలో ఉండదు. ఉదాహరణకు, ఒక స్త్రీ స్కార్ఫ్ను మెడకు కట్టి, నేలపై మోకాళ్ల మీద కూర్చొని, స్కార్ఫ్ను డోర్ నాబ్కు కట్టి ముందుకు వంగింది. అది జుగ్యులర్ సిరలను అణచివేస్తుంది. గాలి మార్గం పూర్తిగా అడ్డుకుంటే చాలా బాధాకరమైన మరణం. కరోటిడ్ ఆర్టరీలను అడ్డుకుంటే వ్యక్తి మూర్ఛపోతాడు. కానీ జుగ్యులర్ సిరలను మాత్రమే అణిచితే గాలి వస్తూనే ఉంటుంది, రక్తం తలలో నిలిచిపోతుంది; మూర్ఛ వచ్చే వరకు అది మంచి అనిపిస్తుంది.”
**(54:02)** “దీన్ని ఆటోఎరోటిక్ అస్ఫిక్సియేషన్ అంటారు. హస్తమైథునం లేదా సెక్స్ సమయంలో గొంతు అడ్డుకుంటారు. వాళ్లు మెడకు వస్తువు కట్టి, అది వేలికి కట్టి ఉంచుతారు—మూర్ఛ వచ్చినప్పుడు చేతి జారి, గొంతు విడిపోవాలని. కానీ అది ఎప్పుడూ పని చేయదు. గొంతు అడ్డుకుని మరణిస్తారు. నేను వెళ్తే నగ్న చిత్రాలు, లూబ్రికెంట్లు ఉంటాయి. అందరూ ‘ఆత్మహత్య’ అంటారు. కాదు—అది ప్రమాదవశాత్తు మరణం.”
**(55:12)** “హత్య అయితే చేతులతో లేదా లిగేచర్తో గొంతు పిండుతారు. చేతులతో పిండితే మెడపై గోర్ల ముద్రలు, గాయాలు ఉంటాయి; చేతి పరిమాణం కూడా అంచనా వేయగలం. ఎక్స్టెన్షన్ కార్డ్ లేదా వైర్ వాడితే, వెనుక నుంచి గొంతు చుట్టి పైకి లాగుతారు. వైర్ గుర్తు ముందు ఉండి, వెనుక క్రాస్ అవుతుంది; చర్మంపై ఖాళీ భాగం ఉంటుంది. బలంగా లాగినందుకు గుర్తు లోతుగా ఉంటుంది—అది హత్య.”
**(56:08)** “తర్వాత ఆత్మహత్యలా కనిపించేలా ఉరివేస్తే? చనిపోయిన శరీరాన్ని లేపడం చాలా కష్టం—సాధారణంగా ఇద్దరు కావాలి. చిన్న వ్యక్తి అయితే ఒకరు చేయగలరు. మెడకు ఉరి కట్టి, పైపు మీద వేలాడదీసి కట్టేస్తారు. కానీ వాళ్లు స్థానాన్ని మర్చిపోతారు. ఉరి గుర్తు ముందు ఉండాలి; కానీ మెడ వెనుక గొంతు పిండిన గుర్తులు ఉంటే—అది హత్య అని నాకు తెలుస్తుంది.”
**(57:54)** “హంతకులు మిమ్మల్ని మోసం చేసిన మూడు తెలివైన పద్ధతులు చెప్పండి.”
“చెప్పితే నిన్ను చంపేయాల్సి వస్తుంది—రహస్యాలు తెలిసిపోతాయి కాబట్టి.”
“వాడగలిగే పద్ధతులు చెప్పకు, పట్టుకున్న పద్ధతులు చెప్పండి.”
“దోపిడీ నాటకం—గదిని పగలగొట్టి స్టేజ్ చేయడం. మరోటి—లైంగిక దాడి జరిగినట్లు కనిపించేలా చేయడం. స్త్రీ నేలపై నగ్నంగా పడి, చేతులు కాళ్లు విడదీసి ఉంటే మనం పురుషుడు చేసిన అత్యాచారం అనుకుంటాం. కానీ స్త్రీ హంతకురాలై ఉంటే, ఆమె బాధితురాలిని గొంతు పిండి, బట్టలు తీసి, అత్యాచారం జరిగినట్లు కనిపించేలా చేసి ఉండవచ్చు. అదృష్టవశాత్తూ చాలా మంది స్త్రీలు అలా చంపరు.”
**(59:44)** “స్త్రీలు సాధారణంగా పిల్లలపై దాడి చేస్తున్న వ్యక్తిని, లేదా ఎన్నో ఏళ్లుగా వేధించిన భర్తను చంపుతారు. అది మరింత వ్యక్తిగతం. స్త్రీ మరో స్త్రీని చంపడం చాలా అరుదా?”
“అవును, చాలా అరుదు. పురుషుడు మరో పురుషుడిని చంపడం వ్యాపారం, ప్రతీకారం, అధికార క్రమం, మోసం వంటి కారణాలతో జరుగుతుంది. భర్త వ్యవహారం వల్ల స్త్రీ మరో స్త్రీని చంపడం విన్నాను, కానీ చూడలేదు. స్త్రీలు భర్తలను చంపడం, చంపించడం చూశాను; ప్రసవానంతర సైకోసిస్లో పిల్లలను చంపిన సందర్భాలు కూడా చూశాను. కానీ స్త్రీ మరో స్త్రీని చంపిన కేసు గుర్తుకు రాదు.”
**(1:01:08)** “భర్తను మరో స్త్రీ ప్రలోభపెట్టి తీసుకెళ్లితే, ఎవరిని చంపాలి—ఆ స్త్రీనా, భర్తనా?”
“భర్తను. ఎవరినీ చంపకూడదు. దయచేసి ఎవరినీ చంపకండి—మిమ్మల్ని పట్టుకుంటాం, జీవితకాల శిక్ష వేస్తాం.”
“మనసులో ఇద్దరినీ చంపాలని అనుకుంటాం.”
“నిజ జీవితంలో ఎవరినీ కాదు.”
**(1:01:49)** “లైంగిక దాడి నాటకం, ఉరి నాటకం—మూడో పద్ధతి మరణ సమయాన్ని మార్చడమా?”
“అవును. ఒక వ్యక్తి హస్లర్—డబ్బుకు ఇతర పురుషులతో సెక్స్ చేసేవాడు. అతని చిన్న స్టూడియో అపార్ట్మెంట్లో పురుషులు వచ్చి డబ్బు ఇచ్చి వెళ్లేవారు. కొందరు స్వయంగా స్ట్రెయిట్ అని చెప్పుకునేవారు, కానీ కొత్తగా ప్రయోగించాలని వస్తారు. తర్వాత వారిలో వికారం, ద్వేషం పుడుతుంది. తాము చేసిన దాన్ని అంగీకరించలేరు. దాన్ని ‘ఇంటర్నలైజ్డ్ హోమోఫోబియా’ లేదా ‘హోమోఫోబిక్ రేజ్’ అంటారు. డబ్బు ఇచ్చిన వ్యక్తి ముఖాన్ని కొడతాడు—అతను తనవైపు చూడకూడదని.”
**(1:04:12)** “అతనికి కస్టమర్లు ఎప్పుడూ వస్తూపోతూ ఉండేవారు. అపార్ట్మెంట్లో అగ్ని జరిగింది. ఫైర్ డిపార్ట్మెంట్ వచ్చి చూస్తే పడక చుట్టూ, డ్రెస్సర్ చుట్టూ మంటలు ఉన్నాయి. పడకపై ఒక వ్యక్తి పొడిచి చనిపోయి, ముఖం కొట్టుకుని ఉన్నాడు. అగ్నికి కారణం—పడక చివర ఉన్న డ్రెస్సర్పై వెలిగించిన కొవ్వొత్తులు. డ్రాయర్లు తీసి, కొవ్వొత్తులను అంచున పెట్టారు; కరిగిన తర్వాత బట్టలకు నిప్పు అంటింది.”
**(1:05:07)** “మరణ సమయాన్ని ఎలా నిర్ణయించాలి? మధ్యాహ్నం 12 నుంచి 4 గంటల మధ్య ఇద్దరు వచ్చారు. ఎవరు చేశారో తెలియదు. పొగ వల్ల ఉష్ణోగ్రత పూర్తిగా తప్పిపోయింది. హంతకుడు అతన్ని పొడిచి, నెమ్మదిగా పొగ వచ్చే అగ్నిని పెట్టి సురక్షితంగా బయటకు వెళ్లడానికి ఏర్పాటు చేశాడు.”
**(1:06:04)** “అతన్ని హాల్లోకి తీసుకొచ్చినప్పుడు చర్మం పసుపు రంగులో, తోలు లాగా ఉంది—నెమ్మదైన వేడి చర్మాన్ని కాల్చేసింది. రిగర్ మోర్టిస్ తెలుసుకోలేకపోయాను—ఫైర్మెన్ అతన్ని కదిలించారు. లివిడిటీ కూడా తెలియలేదు—అతన్ని ఎక్కడికక్కడా తిప్పారు, అంతా పొగతో నిండింది. కాళ్లపై చర్మం జారిపోయింది—అది ఎక్కువ సేపు ఉన్నందుకు కాదు; ఫైర్మెన్ ముతక గ్లవ్స్తో కాళ్లు పట్టుకుని లాగడం వల్ల. మరణ సమయాన్ని నేను చెప్పలేకపోయాను; ఎవరూ చెప్పలేదు.”
**(1:07:01)** “అతన్ని పట్టుకోగలిగారా?”
“లేదు. ఈ దేశంలో సుమారు 60% హత్యలు మాత్రమే పరిష్కరించబడతాయి.”
“60% మాత్రమే?”
“అవును. 40% హంతకులు బయట ఉన్నారు. ప్రపంచంలో అత్యంత శక్తివంతమైన దేశంలో కూడా వనరులు అసమానంగా ఉన్నాయి. న్యూయార్క్లో పట్టుకోకుండా ఉండడం కష్టం—DNA ల్యాబ్స్, డిటెక్టివ్స్, క్రైమ్ సీన్ యూనిట్, సర్వైలెన్స్ అన్నీ ఉన్నాయి. కానీ విస్కాన్సిన్, డకోటాస్ వంటి చోట్ల రాష్ట్రానికి లేదా కౌంటీకి ఒక్క ఫోరెన్సిక్ పాథాలజిస్ట్ మాత్రమే ఉండవచ్చు. న్యూయార్క్లో మాకు 15 మంది ఉన్నారు; 45 మంది ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్లు ఉన్నారు.”
**(1:07:50)** “ఒక హామిసైడ్ డిటెక్టివ్తో మాట్లాడాను—తొమ్మిదేళ్లలో అతనికి ఒకే ఒక్క హత్య కేసు వచ్చింది. ‘మిగతా ఏం చేస్తారు?’ అని అడిగాను. ‘సహాయం చేస్తాను’ అన్నాడు. నాకు 10 ఏళ్లలో 680 కేసులు వచ్చాయి. అందుకే ఎడారిలో, మైదానాల్లో హత్య చేస్తే తప్పించుకునే అవకాశం ఎక్కువ. న్యూయార్క్, బాల్టిమోర్, చికాగో, మయామి, లాస్ ఏంజెల్స్లో అంత సులభం కాదు. అయినా అన్ని కేసులూ పరిష్కరించము.”
**(1:08:58)** “కాల్పుల తర్వాత వాళ్లు వీధిలో నడిచి, ఎవరినైనా కాల్చి, కారులో పారిపోతారు. గ్యాంగ్ పిల్లలు ప్రమాదకర నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకుంటారు—‘డ్రగ్ డీలర్ జీవితం గడపాలి; 30 ఏళ్ల వయసులో చనిపోయినా కారు, బట్టలు, డైమండ్స్, డబ్బు, అమ్మాయిలు ఉంటాయి’ అని. కానీ అలా కాదు—వాళ్లు త్వరగా చనిపోతారు. వాళ్లు కారులో కొంతమంది టీనేజర్లను తీసుకుని, జనం ఉన్న చోట శత్రువును వెతుకుతూ జనసమూహంలోకి కాల్పులు జరుపుతారు. కాల్చడంలో నైపుణ్యం లేకపోవడం వల్ల ఇతరులు కూడా చనిపోతారు. షాక్, భయంలో నంబర్ ప్లేట్ చూడరు; కొన్నిసార్లు అది దొంగిలించిన కారు కూడా.”
**(1:10:25)** “న్యూయార్క్లో కెమెరాలతో పాటు, తుపాకీ శబ్దం వినిపిస్తే పోలీస్ డిపార్ట్మెంట్కు అలర్ట్ వెళ్లే సెన్సర్లు ఉన్నాయి. నాకు ఇది జరిగింది—హార్లెమ్లో నేను సబ్వేకు వెళ్తుండగా తుపాకీ శబ్దం వినిపించింది. బుల్లెట్లు నా కళ్ల ముందు సుమారు 10 అడుగుల దూరంలో భవనం మూలను తగిలాయి. నేను నేలపై పడిపోయాను. పక్కన ఉన్న స్త్రీతో ‘నేలపై పడు’ అని అరిచాను. ఇద్దరం పాములా సబ్వే వైపు పాకాం. నాకు చాలా కోపం వచ్చింది—నాకు మంచి దుస్తులు ధరించి ఉన్నాను. మూడు కాల్పులు జరిగాయి; రెండు భవనాన్ని తగిలాయి. ఎవరూ చనిపోలేదు, కానీ నాకు చాలా కోపం వచ్చింది. అర్ధ బ్లాక్ దూరంలో ప్లేగ్రౌండ్ ఉంది. పోలీసులు వెంటనే స్పందించారు—నేను 911కి కాల్ చేయనక్కర్లేదు. సెన్సర్లు శబ్దాన్ని గుర్తించాయి. న్యూయార్క్ పోలీసులకు అద్భుతమైన టెక్నాలజీ ఉంది. కాబట్టి ఇక్కడ ఎవరినీ చంపడానికి రావద్దు—అది విలువైనది కాదు.”
**(1:11:36)** “శాంతిగా చనిపోయారా, హింసాత్మకంగా చనిపోయారా అని మృతదేహం చూసి చెప్పగలరా?”
“చాలా కష్టం. వ్యక్తిని గొంతు పిండినా, పొడిచినా, మరణించే క్షణంలో ముఖం అరుస్తూ, కళ్లు తెరిచి ఉండవచ్చు. కానీ మరణం జరిగిన తర్వాత అంతా విశ్రాంతి పొందుతుంది—ముఖం జారిపోతుంది. కాబట్టి శాంతిగా చనిపోయారా లేదా అని ఖచ్చితంగా చెప్పలేను. ఒక పెద్ద వయసు స్త్రీ పడకపై చనిపోయి ఉంది; గుండె జబ్బు మందులు పక్కన ఉన్నాయి. కానీ దిండ్లు గందరగోళంగా ఉన్నాయి, డ్రాయర్లు తెరిచి ఉన్నాయి. దొంగిలించడానికి ఏమీ లేకపోయినా, వెతికినట్లు ఉన్నాయి. పొరుగింటి కొడుకు లోపలికి వచ్చి ఆమెను గొంతు పిండి చంపాడని తేలింది—ఖచ్చితంగా చెప్పాలంటే ఊపిరి ఆడకుండా చేశాడు.”
**(1:13:15)** “ఎలా తెలిసింది? నోటిపై చేతిని అడ్డుపెట్టినప్పుడు, ముఖ్యంగా పెద్ద వయసు వ్యక్తి లేదా పిల్లాడు తప్పించుకోవడానికి ప్రయత్నిస్తారు. అప్పుడు పెదవుల లోపల గాయాలు ఏర్పడతాయి; పళ్లు పెదవి లోపలి భాగాన్ని గీస్తాయి. పెదవి లేపి చూస్తే ‘ఆమెను ఊపిరి ఆడకుండా చేశారు’ అని తెలుస్తుంది. పెదవిని చిగుళ్లకు అతుకుతున్న చిన్న కణజాలాన్ని ఫ్రెనులమ్ అంటారు; అది కూడా పగిలిపోవచ్చు.”
**(1:14:01)** “రక్తపు చిందటం ఫోటోలు చూపిస్తాను. ప్రతి రక్తపు మచ్చ ఒక కథ చెబుతుంది.”
“ఇది బ్లడ్ స్వైప్—రక్తపు గుంట మీదుగా ఏదో వస్తువు లాగి గీత వేసింది. రక్తపు చుక్కలు నేరుగా పడితే వృత్తాకారంగా ఉంటాయి; వంగి ఉంటే చుక్క కదులుతూ పడిందని అర్థం. ఇది చుక్కను పక్కకు రాసినట్లు కనిపిస్తోంది. ఇది డ్రిప్—రక్తం ఇక్కడ చింది, నేరుగా కిందకు కారింది.”
**(1:15:34)** “వ్యక్తి పరుగెడుతూ రక్తం తడిసిన కత్తి నుంచి చుక్కలు పడుతుంటే, రక్తం నేలపై పడి కదిలి చిన్న తోకలా గీత వేస్తుంది. ఆ గీత వ్యక్తి కదిలిన దిశను చూపిస్తుంది. ఇది ఖచ్చితంగా కత్తి హత్యేనా?”
“ఖచ్చితంగా అనలేను. సుత్తి కూడా కావచ్చు. కర్ర లేదా బేస్బాల్ బ్యాట్తో కొట్టినా రక్తం అలాగే చిమ్ముతుంది.”
**(1:15:55)** “ఇది నకిలీగా కనిపిస్తోంది. రక్తాన్ని చల్లి, గీతలు వేశారు—ఇది నిజమైన క్రైమ్ సీన్ లాగా లేదు.”
“ఇది హై-వెలాసిటీ బ్లడ్ స్ప్యాటర్. తుపాకీ కాల్పుల్లో మెదడు కణజాలం లేదా రక్తం అధిక వేగంతో చిమ్ముతుంది. ఇది పైపా? తెలియదు. ఇది మజిల్—దగ్గరి దూరం కాల్పు. షాట్గన్తో ఉదరాన్ని కాల్చితే కొంత రక్తం వెనక్కి చిమ్ముతుంది. ఇది కాస్ట్-ఆఫ్—బ్యాట్తో కొట్టిన తర్వాత చేతిని వెనక్కి తీసుకున్నప్పుడు రక్తం గోడపై పడుతుంది. ఇది రెండో లేదా మూడో దెబ్బ అని కనిపిస్తోంది.”
**(1:18:58)** “ఇది ఎండిన రక్తం. ఇక్కడ పెద్ద రక్తపు గుంట ఉంది. రక్తంలో ప్లాస్మా, ఎర్ర రక్త కణాలు వేరుగా ఉంటాయి. ప్లాస్మా నారింజ, పసుపు రంగులో వేరవుతుంది—ఇది సాధారణ భౌతికశాస్త్రం. ఇది చాలా పాత గడ్డకట్టిన రక్తం; అంతా ఎండిపోయింది—వారాల నాటిది కావచ్చు.”
**(1:19:53)** “మీ దర్యాప్తును పూర్తిగా మార్చిన అతి చిన్న ఆధారం ఏమిటి?”
“ఒక స్త్రీని బలవంతంగా పొడిచి చంపారు. తలుపు బలవంతంగా తెరవడం లేదు—అంటే తెలిసిన వ్యక్తిని లోపలికి అనుమతించింది. కుటుంబాన్ని అన్వేషించాలి. ముఖంపై పదేపదే పొడిచిన గాయాలు ఉన్నాయి, కానీ పెద్ద ముష్టి దెబ్బలు కావు—మృదువైన దెబ్బలు. అలా కొట్టేది స్త్రీ అయి ఉండవచ్చు. బెడ్రూమ్ వెలుపల హాల్లో 10 అంగుళాల పెద్ద కిచెన్ కత్తి ఉంది—అది హత్య ఆయుధం అని అనిపించింది.”
**(1:21:59)** “కిచెన్లో కత్తుల బ్లాక్ ఉంది; పెద్ద కత్తి మాత్రమే లేదు. కానీ అది అంత రక్తంతో నిండి లేదు—అన్ని పొడుపు గాయాలకు అది రక్తంతో నిండి ఉండాలి. గాయాల ఆకారం చూస్తే కత్తి పరిమాణం తెలుస్తుంది. ఇవి చిన్న అలల అంచులు కలిగి ఉన్నాయి—సెరేటెడ్ కత్తి. కిచెన్లో కౌంటర్ పక్కన మరో పాత్రలో స్టీక్ నైవ్స్ ఉన్నాయి. సాధారణంగా ఆరింటి సెట్ వస్తుంది; ఐదు మిగిలాయి, ఒకటి లేదు. అంటే నిజమైన ఆయుధం స్టీక్ నైఫ్—హంతకురాలు దాన్ని తీసుకెళ్లింది.”
**(1:24:17)** “పెద్ద కత్తిని నేలపై ఎందుకు వదిలేశారు? ‘పెద్ద మనిషి వచ్చి పెద్ద కత్తితో పొడిచాడు’ అని మనం అనుకోవడానికి. కానీ నిజం ఏమిటంటే వారికి ఏం చేస్తున్నారో తెలియదు. నా అంచనా—ఇది స్త్రీ చేత జరిగిన హత్య. పురుషులు ముఖాన్ని గట్టి ముష్టులతో కొడతారు; స్త్రీలు కోపంలో అలా కొడతారు. బహుశా ఇద్దరు సోదరీమణులు—‘నువ్వు నా భర్తతో సంబంధం పెట్టుకున్నావ్’ అని గొడవ జరిగింది. తర్వాత ‘నేను కొట్టినట్లు అందరికీ చెబుతుంది, చంపేయాలి’ అని నిర్ణయించింది.”
**(1:25:38)** “చంపడానికి వాడిన అతి విచిత్రమైన వస్తువు?”
“ఫైర్ప్లేస్ టూల్. నల్ల ఇనుప సెట్లో పోకర్, కట్టెలు కదిలించే కొక్కెం ఉంటాయి. ఒక వ్యక్తి తలపై పలుసార్లు దెబ్బలు తగిలాయి; రెండు వంగిన కొక్కెం గుర్తులు ఉన్నాయి. ఆ వస్తువు ఫైర్ప్లేస్ సెట్లో లేదు—హంతకుడు దానితో తలపై కొట్టి, తీసుకెళ్లిపోయాడు.”
**(1:26:39)** “సాటానిక్ ఆచారాలు చూశారట?”
“నేను చూసినవి సాటానిక్ ఆచారాలు కావు అని అనుకుంటాను. అవి యోరుబా/ఆఫ్రో-క్యూబన్ మత, ఆధ్యాత్మిక నమ్మకాలకు సంబంధించిన బలి ఆచారాలు కావచ్చు—సాధారణంగా కుక్క లేదా జంతువును బలి ఇస్తారు. న్యూయార్క్లో ఐరీన్ సిల్వర్మాన్ అనే ధనవతి, చాలా మంచి స్త్రీ ఉండేది. ఒక తల్లి, కొడుకు ఆమె ఇంటికి వచ్చి ‘మాకు ఉండడానికి చోటు లేదు, మమ్మల్ని ఇక్కడ ఉంచుకోగలరా?’ అని అడిగారు.”
**(1:25:38)** “అంటే అది స్త్రీ మరో స్త్రీని చంపిన కేసు.”
“అవును. మీరు చూసిన అతి విచిత్రమైన హత్య ఆయుధం ఏమిటి?”
“ఫైర్ప్లేస్ టూల్. ఇక్కడ ఫైర్ప్లేస్లకు చిన్న టూల్స్ సెట్ ఉంటుంది—సాధారణంగా నల్ల ఇనుముతో చేసినవి. కట్టెలను కదిలించే కొక్కెం, పోకర్ ఉంటాయి. ఒక పొడవాటి, మందమైన కర్ర చివర రెండు చిన్న వంగిన కొక్కెంలు ఉంటాయి. ఒక వ్యక్తి తలపై పలుసార్లు దెబ్బలు తగిలాయి—బహుశా ఫైర్ పోకర్తో. కానీ ఆ రెండు వంగిన కొక్కెంల గుర్తు ఫైర్ప్లేస్ సెట్లో లేని వస్తువుది. హంతకుడు ఆ కొక్కెం ఉన్న ఇనుప సాధనంతో తలపై కొట్టి, దాన్ని తీసుకెళ్లిపోయాడు.”
**(1:26:39)** “మీరు సాటానిక్ ఆచారాలు చూశారని ఎక్కడో చదివాను.”
“అవును. అవి ఎలా ఉంటాయి?”
“నేను చూసినవి సాటానిక్ ఆచారాలు కావు అని అనుకుంటాను. అవి యోరుబా/ఆఫ్రో-క్యూబన్ మత, ఆధ్యాత్మిక నమ్మకాలకు సంబంధించిన బలి ఆచారాలు కావచ్చు. సాధారణంగా కుక్క లేదా జంతువును బలి ఇస్తారు.”
**(1:27:31)** “న్యూయార్క్లో ఐరీన్ సిల్వర్మాన్ అనే ధనవతి, చాలా మంచి స్త్రీ ఉండేది. ఒక తల్లి, కొడుకు ఆమె ఇంటికి వచ్చి ‘మాకు ఉండడానికి చోటు లేదు; మమ్మల్ని సహాయం చేయగలరా? నా ఉద్యోగం పోయింది, కొడుకు నా దగ్గరకు వచ్చాడు. మేము ఇంటిని శుభ్రం చేస్తాం, పనులన్నీ చూసుకుంటాం’ అని అన్నారు. ఆమె లోపలికి రానివ్వగానే వాళ్లు ‘ఇది మంచి అవకాశం—ఈ ఇల్లు, ఆమె డబ్బు, నగలు, అంతా మాకు రావచ్చు’ అని భావించారు. వాళ్లు మోసగాళ్లు—గ్రిఫ్టర్స్ అంటే కాన్మెన్.”
**(1:28:25)** “ఆ తల్లి, కొడుకు—శాంటే, కెన్నెత్ కైమ్స్—ఆమె హఠాత్తుగా కనిపించకపోగానే ఆమె ఇల్లు, ఆస్తులు అంతా వారి అధీనంలోకి వచ్చాయి. బంధువులు పోలీసులకు ఫిర్యాదు చేశారు; ఐరీన్ సిల్వర్మాన్ను ఎక్కడా కనుగొనలేకపోయారు. ఒక సైకిక్ నాకు కాల్ చేసి ‘బార్బరా, ఆమె న్యూజెర్సీలోని పెద్ద పొలంలో ఉండవచ్చు; నాకు బలమైన అనుభూతి వస్తోంది’ అని చెప్పింది. ‘సరే, వెళ్తాం’ అన్నాను—శనివారం కాదు, కానీ వెళ్లాం.”
**(1:28:46)** “పొలంలో పూడ్చిపెట్టిన మృతదేహాన్ని వెతుకుతున్నప్పుడు ఏం చూడాలి? గుంట తవ్వి శరీరాన్ని పెట్టి మట్టి పోస్తే, గాలి బయటకు వెళ్లి మట్టి కుంగిపోతుంది—నేలపై చిన్న గుంట కనిపిస్తుంది. ఎక్కువ కాలం ఉంటే ఆ ప్రాంతంలో గడ్డి మరింత ఆకుపచ్చగా ఉంటుంది—శరీరం ఎరువులా పనిచేస్తుంది కాబట్టి. ఆ సైకిక్ భూమి యొక్క మాగ్నెటిక్ పల్సేషన్ల కోసం ఒక సాధనంతో తిరుగుతోంది. మేము వదిలేసిన రైల్వే ట్రాక్ల వద్ద కుక్క పుర్రె, గడ్డకట్టిన రక్తం ఉన్న గిన్నె, ఈకలు, క్రూసిఫిక్స్ లాంటి క్రాస్, ఎండిన జంతు గుండె లాంటి ముక్కలు కనిపించాయి. అది సాంతేరియా ఆచారం అని నేను నమ్మాను. మృతదేహం కోసం వెతుకుతూ రైల్వే ట్రాక్ మధ్యలో అలాంటి విచిత్ర సెటప్ చూడటం భయంకరంగా ఉంది.”
**(1:30:35)** “ఐరీన్ సిల్వర్మాన్ శరీరం ఎప్పటికీ దొరకలేదు. పక్కన నిర్మాణం జరుగుతున్న ఇంటి ఫౌండేషన్లో ఆమె ఉండి, పైన సిమెంటు పోశారని వారు నమ్ముతారు. కానీ దాన్ని ఎలా నిరూపించాలి? మొత్తం భవనాన్ని కూల్చాల్సి వస్తుంది.”
“దెయ్యాలను నమ్ముతారా?”
“సాధారణంగా నమ్మను. కానీ మా కుటుంబంలో ఒక దెయ్యం నిజంగా ఉంది. నా అమ్మ పెరిగిన ముత్తాత ఇంట్లో, చిన్నప్పుడు పై అంతస్తులో నిద్రిస్తూ రాత్రిళ్లు పురుషుడు, స్త్రీ ఏడుస్తూ, గొడవ పడుతున్న శబ్దాలు వినేది. మేము పిల్లలంగా అక్కడ ఆడుకునేవాళ్లం; మెట్ల ల్యాండింగ్కు వచ్చేసరికి కడుపు కిందకు లాగిపోయే, చల్లని అనుభూతి వచ్చేది. అందుకే వేగంగా పరిగెత్తుకుంటూ వెళ్లేవాళ్లం.”
**(1:31:25)** “తర్వాత తెలిసింది—నా ముత్తాత అల్ తన అందమైన భార్య కోరాపై అతిగా అనుమానపడేవాడు. ఆమె కిరాణా దుకాణంలో పనిచేసే యువకుడితో ఫ్లర్ట్ చేస్తోందని భావించాడు. వాళ్లు గొడవ పడుతూ, ఏడుస్తూ ఉండగా పెద్ద తుపాకీ శబ్దం వినిపించింది. ఎవరో పైనికి వెళ్లి చూస్తే అతను మెట్ల ల్యాండింగ్పై చనిపోయి పడి ఉన్నాడు; కోరా ఎక్కడా కనిపించలేదు. ఆమె ఆ యువకుడితో పారిపోయిందని అనుకున్నారు.”
**(1:32:04)** “ఆ రోజుల్లో లోపలే అంత్యక్రియలు చేసేవారు. శవపేటిక ఉంచి, అందరూ ‘కోరా ఎక్కడికి వెళ్లింది? ఇటలీకి వెళ్లిందా?’ అని మాట్లాడుతుండగా, కొంతమంది కార్మికులు పై అంతస్తులో ఫర్నేస్ సరిచేయడానికి వెళ్లి అరిచారు—చిన్న హీటర్ వెనుక ఒక ట్రంక్లో యువతి శరీరం దాచి ఉంది; చేతి బయటకు వేలాడుతోంది. అది కోరా. ముత్తాత అల్ ఆమెను కాల్చి, ట్రంక్లో పెట్టి, తనను తాను కాల్చుకున్నాడు. ఆ ఇంట్లో ఆ శబ్దాలు ఇప్పటికీ వినిపిస్తాయని, చల్లదనం అనుభవిస్తారని చెప్తారు.”
**(1:33:16)** “అలా ఉంటే దెయ్యాలు ఉండవచ్చని ఎలా అనుకోకూడదు? బహుశా ఉండవచ్చు. కానీ మీరు అలా అనుభవించడం మనసులో ఊహల వల్ల కావచ్చు.”
“నా నమ్మకం ఏమిటంటే, మన శరీరం పదార్థం; మనల్ని జీవింపజేసే శక్తి—దీన్ని ఆత్మ అంటాం—శక్తి. అది పరమాత్మ నుంచి వచ్చే విశ్వ శక్తి. మరణం జరిగినప్పుడు ఆ శక్తి మూలానికి తిరిగి వెళ్తుంది. కానీ ఏదైనా అత్యంత బాధాకరమైన, భయంకరమైన అనుభవం వల్ల ఆత్మ బయటకు రాలేకపోతే—మెట్ల వద్ద అనుభవించే ఆ చిన్న శక్తి అదే కావచ్చు.”
**(1:34:07)** “మా మతంలో కూడా అదే చెబుతారు—ఆత్మకు పూర్తి కాని పని ఉంటే అది అక్కడే ఉండిపోతుంది. ఆ పని లేదా జీవిత ఉద్దేశం పూర్తి చేసుకునే వరకు బాధపడుతుంది. పూర్తయిన తర్వాత విముక్తి పొందుతుంది; లేదంటే బాధపడుతూనే ఉంటుంది. నేను అక్కడికి వెళ్లి వారి బాధను తగ్గించి, వారిని విడుదల చేయగలనేమో అని ఆలోచిస్తాను.”
**(1:34:57)** “పునర్జన్మను నమ్ముతారా?”
“కొత్త శరీరం పుట్టినప్పుడు శిశువులోకి మరో శక్తి ప్యాకెట్ వస్తుందని నమ్ముతాను. కొన్నిసార్లు ఆ ప్యాకెట్లో గతంలో చనిపోయిన వ్యక్తి జ్ఞాపకాలు, ఆలోచనలు, భావాలు ఉండవచ్చు. కొందరు పుట్టకముందు 50 ఏళ్ల క్రితం జీవితం గురించి మాట్లాడతారు. నాకు తెలిసిన 5 ఏళ్ల బాలుడు భోజనం చేస్తుండగా ఏడుస్తూ ‘అమ్మా, నేను తిరిగి వచ్చినప్పుడు ఈ కుటుంబంలోనే పుట్టాలి. నీ గర్భంలోకి రావాలి’ అని చెప్పాడు. ఆ భావోద్వేగం అంత నిజంగా ఉంది; అతను కట్టించడం కాదని నాకు కనిపించింది.”
**(1:36:18)** “నా జీవితం ఇప్పుడు చాలా బాగుంది కాబట్టి అది నన్ను భయపెడుతుంది. కష్టాలు వచ్చాయి, కానీ ప్రతిదీ నాకు ఏదో నేర్పించింది. ఇప్పుడు నేను శాంతి స్థితికి చేరుకున్నాను. బహుశా ఫ్రెంచ్ స్త్రీగా తిరిగి పుట్టితే బాగుంటుంది—అది ఫన్గా ఉంటుంది.”
**(1:36:42)** “కుటుంబ సభ్యుడిని కుటుంబమే చంపి, సాధారణ మరణంలా చూపించి, కేసును మూసేయడం జరుగుతుందా? ఎవరూ పోలీసులకు ఫిర్యాదు చేయకపోతే?”
“జరుగుతుంది. ఒక కేసులో ఇద్దరు కొడుకులు తమ వృద్ధ తల్లితో నివసించారు. ఆమె ఇంట్లో చనిపోయినట్లు ఆంబులెన్స్కు, కుటుంబ వైద్యుడికి చెప్పారు. వైద్యుడు ‘నిద్రలో చనిపోయింది’ అని మరణ ధృవీకరణ పత్రం సంతకం చేశాడు. మమ్మల్ని ఎవరూ పిలవలేదు. వాళ్లు ఆమెను న్యూజెర్సీలో త్వరగా పూడ్చిపెట్టి, ఆస్తిని పొందారు.”
**(1:37:43)** “తర్వాత పొరుగువాళ్లు పోలీసులకు చెప్పారు—‘ఆమె కొడుకులు ఆమెను కొట్టేవారు; ఆమెకు ఎప్పుడూ గాయాలు, గంటలు ఉండేవి; ఇంటి నుంచి బయటకు రావడానికి కూడా కష్టపడేది.’ ఒకసారి ఆమె చేతికి స్లింగ్ ఉంది—బహుశా ఎముక విరిగి ఉండవచ్చు. సమాచారం అంత ఎక్కువైన తర్వాత పోలీసులు ‘గోరా తవ్వి చూద్దాం’ అని మమ్మల్ని పిలిచారు. తవ్వి చూస్తే—ఆమెను మంచి దుస్తుల్లో పూడ్చలేదు; మురికి పాత హౌస్ డ్రెస్, చిరిగిన అండర్వేర్లో, చౌకైన శవపేటికలో పడేశారు. శరీరంపై గాయాలు, పాత గాయాలు, విరిగి నయమైన ఎముకలు ఉన్నాయి. వాళ్లు నిజంగా కొట్టి ఉండవచ్చని నాకు అనిపించింది. కానీ దాన్ని నిరూపించడం కష్టం—కొడుకులు ‘ఆమె ఎప్పుడూ పడిపోతూ ఉండేది’ అన్నారు. కానీ నాకు బాధ కలిగించిన విషయం—ఆమెను సరైన దుస్తుల్లో కూడా పూడ్చకుండా పడేశారు అనేది.”
**(1:39:51)** “హంతకులు చేసే అతి పెద్ద తప్పు ఏమిటి?”
“‘నన్ను పట్టుకోరు’ అని అనుకోవడం. కొందరు ‘గ్లవ్స్ ధరిస్తే గోర్ల ముద్రలు పడవు; రక్తాన్ని అమ్మోనియాతో కడగాలి’ అనుకుంటారు. రెండు విషయాల్లో తప్పు. ఒకటి—డిష్వాషింగ్ గ్లవ్ లోపల DNA మిగులుతుంది. రెండు—అమ్మోనియా రక్తాన్ని లేదా DNAను నాశనం చేయదు; కడగవచ్చు, కానీ జాడలు మిగులుతాయి. క్రైమ్ సీన్ యూనిట్ ప్రత్యామ్నాయ లైట్ సోర్స్లు తీసుకువస్తారు; లుమినాల్ చల్లితే రక్తం ప్రకాశిస్తుంది. గోడపై, బూట్లపై రక్తం కనిపిస్తుంది. ‘నాకు హత్యను దాచడం తెలుసు’ అనుకుంటారు—తెలియదు.”
**(1:41:25)** “ప్రజలు చంపడానికి నాలుగు పెద్ద కారణాలు?”
“డబ్బు, వ్యాపారం, ద్వేషం, ప్రతీకారం. ద్వేషం అంటే—‘విదేశీయులను నచ్చడం లేదు, కాల్చేస్తా’ అని యువ, పిచ్చి మనస్తత్వం ఉన్నవాళ్లు చేసేది. జాతి, రంగు, మతం, గే అయి ఉండటం—ఏదైనా కారణం కావచ్చు. ప్రతీకారం వ్యక్తిగతం—భర్త ఎన్నో ఏళ్లుగా వ్యవహారం చేస్తున్నాడు, నిన్ను వెర్రి చేశాడు; కొంతమందిని డబ్బు ఇచ్చి అతన్ని చంపించేస్తారు.”
**(1:42:53)** “పెద్ద కారణం—భర్త భార్యను వదిలి యువతిని ప్రేమించి, విడాకులు కావాలనుకుంటాడు, కానీ భార్యా పిల్లలకు డబ్బు ఇవ్వడం ఇష్టం లేదు. ‘ఆమెను తొలగిస్తే డబ్బంతా నాదే; ప్రేయసితో వివాహం చేసుకోవచ్చు’ అని భావిస్తాడు. ఇది చాలా జరుగుతుంది. అమెరికన్ షోలు చూడండి—స్కాట్ పీటర్సన్ వంటి కేసులు. భార్య ఆత్మహత్య చేసుకుందని చెప్పి, దర్యాప్తు మొదలయ్యాక అతనికి ప్రేయసి ఉందని తేలుతుంది. ఆ ప్రేయసి భయపడుతుంది—తన ప్రియుడు భార్యను చంపితే, తన్ను కూడా చంపగలడని.”
**(1:44:02)** “100 మరణాల్లో సుమారు ఎన్ని ఇలా ఉంటాయి?”
“సంవత్సరాన్ని బట్టి ఉంటుంది. 1992లో నా పని మొదలైనప్పుడు న్యూయార్క్ సిటీలో ఏటా సుమారు 2,400 హత్యలు జరిగేవి. వాటిలో సుమారు 70% వ్యాపారపరమైనవి—మాదకద్రవ్యాలు, క్రాక్ ఎపిడెమిక్, కోకెయిన్ యుద్ధాలు. తెలియని ఇద్దరు వ్యక్తులు—ఒకరినొకరు కాల్చుకుంటారు; బాధితుడి సోదరుడు గ్యాంగ్ సభ్యులను కాల్చతాడు. ఇది ఇలా కొనసాగుతుంది. వ్యక్తిగత హత్యలు రెండో స్థానంలో ఉంటాయి—భర్త భార్యను వదిలేయాలని చంపడం, గుండె పగిలిందని గొంతు పిండడం.”
**(1:45:11)** “ఇప్పుడు న్యూయార్క్లో హత్యలు చాలా తక్కువ—బహుశా 300–350. ఇప్పుడు ద్వేషం పెద్ద కారణమా?”
“పెద్దది కాదు. ఇప్పుడు మొదటి రెండు—డబ్బు, వ్యాపారం; తర్వాత వ్యక్తిగత కారణాలు—జంటల మధ్య, కుటుంబంలో జరిగేవి. ప్రతీకారం, ద్వేషం న్యూయార్క్లో అంత ఎక్కువ కాదు. డబ్బు, వ్యాపారం; వ్యక్తిగత అసూయ, ప్రేమ, కుటుంబాన్ని వదిలి కరేబియన్ దీవిలో ఉండే ప్రేయసితో జీవించాలనే కోరిక.”
**(1:46:28)** “ఇలా చేసిన తర్వాత వాళ్లు ఎలా జీవిస్తారు?”
“తెలియదు. వాళ్లను అరెస్ట్ చేసి, విచారణ జరిపి, దోషులుగా నిర్ధారించి, జీవితకాల జైలుశిక్ష వేస్తారు. 40 ఏళ్ల వయసులోనే జీవితం ముగిసిపోతుంది. అంత డబ్బు ఎందుకు ఇవ్వకూడదు? పిల్లల చదువుకు, వ్యాపారం నిర్మించడంలో సహాయం చేసిన భార్యకు ఇవ్వండి—అది కేవలం డబ్బే.”
**(1:46:52)** “ఎవరైనా హంతకుడిగా మారతారని సూచనలు ఉంటాయా?”
“కోపం. వ్యక్తిగత హత్యలు చాలాసార్లు సైకోటిక్ కోపంలో జరుగుతాయి—ఇక భరించలేక ఎవరినైనా చంపేస్తారు. అలాంటి వ్యక్తి కోపంతో ఉండేవాడు, ఆగ్రహ దాడులు చేసేవాడు, భార్యను లేదా భర్తను కొడతాడు. కొంతమంది స్త్రీలు భర్తలను కొడతారు. అది వారి మానసిక నిర్మాణంలో భాగం.”
**(1:47:48)** “న్యూయార్క్ మ్యాప్ చూపితే ఏ ప్రాంతాల్లో ఏ రకం హత్యలు జరుగుతాయో చెప్పగలరా?”
“ఎక్కువ హత్యలు ఉండే ప్రాంతాలు చెప్పగలను. బ్రూక్లిన్లో ఈస్ట్ న్యూయార్క్, క్రౌన్ హైట్స్—అక్కడ ఇంకా పేదలు, మాదకద్రవ్యాలు అమ్మేవాళ్లు ఉన్నారు. కానీ బ్రూక్లిన్ మారుతోంది; ఇప్పుడు మాన్హట్టన్ కంటే ఖరీదైన ప్రాంతంగా మారింది. డబ్బున్న యువకులు వచ్చిన కొద్దీ పేదలు బయటకు నెట్టబడతారు; వాళ్లు ఇతర చోట్ల హత్యలు చేస్తారు. మాన్హట్టన్లో 34వ ప్రెసింక్ట్ ప్రాంతం; బ్రాంక్స్లో మార్కెట్ ప్రాంతం—ట్రక్కుల ద్వారా ఆహారం, మాంసం వస్తుంది; ట్రక్ డ్రైవర్లను దోచుకునేవాళ్లు ఉండేవారు. స్టాటెన్ ఐలాండ్లో ఏమీ లేదు. క్వీన్స్లో కొన్ని వ్యక్తిగత కేసులు ఉండవచ్చు. బ్రూక్లిన్లో ప్రభుత్వ గృహాల చుట్టూ తుపాకులతో ఒకరినొకరు కాల్చుకునే పిల్లలు ఉంటారు; నిరపరాధులు కూడా చనిపోతారు.”
**(1:50:07)** “ఇప్పుడు అత్యంత అసురక్షిత ప్రాంతం ఏది?”
“చెప్పలేను—ఇప్పుడు నిర్దిష్ట ప్రాంతం లేదు; అంతా చెల్లాచెదురుగా ఉంది. ప్రపంచంలో ఏ దేశంలోనైనా పిచ్చివాళ్లు బయటకు వచ్చి ఎవరినైనా చంపవచ్చు. స్కూల్ షూటర్లను చూడండి—అది నేను చూసిన అతి విచిత్రమైన దృగ్విషయాల్లో ఒకటి. కనెక్టికట్లో సంపన్న పట్టణం, మంచి పాఠశాలలు, చిన్న పిల్లలు—ఒక యువకుడు తుపాకీతో వచ్చి చిన్న పిల్లలపై కాల్పులు జరిపి, తర్వాత ఆత్మహత్య చేసుకుంటాడు. ‘ఆత్మహత్య చేయాలంటే చేయ్; ఇతరులను ఎందుకు చంపాలి?’ కారణం—కోపం. అవును.”
**(1:51:19)** “వాళ్లు కన్ఫ్యూజ్డ్, ఒంటరి, భయపడిన టీనేజ్ అబ్బాయిలు. కొంత మాదకద్రవ్యాలు వాడతారు—గంజాయి కూడా—అది వాళ్లను ఇంకా చెడ్డవాళ్లను చేస్తుంది. ‘ప్రపంచం అంతా నాపై వ్యతిరేకం’ అని భావించి, మనసులో చీకటి పెరుగుతుంది. నల్ల బట్టలు, హుడ్లతో పాఠశాలలో తిరుగుతూ పిల్లలపై కాల్పులు జరుపుతారు. కారణం—కోపం, అసంతృప్తి. ‘నా బాధ వంటి బాధను ఇతరులకు కలిగిస్తా’ అని భావిస్తారు.”
**(1:52:09)** “మీరు దర్యాప్తు చేసిన మొదటి ఆత్మహత్య కేసు కోపంతో ఉన్న వ్యక్తి గురించి అని చెప్పారు.”
“అవును—అది నా పుస్తకంలో మొదటి కథ. రాత్రి ఆలస్యంగా ఒక అపార్ట్మెంట్లో వ్యక్తి పైపుకు ఉరివేసుకుని ఉన్నాడని పిలిచారు. లైట్లు అన్నీ ఆరిపోయాయి. పోలీసులు ‘బిల్లులు కట్టలేదు కాబట్టి కరెంట్ పోయింది’ అన్నారు. అతను బరువైన, చాలా పాలిపోయిన తెల్ల వ్యక్తి; పైపుకు వేలాడుతున్నాడు. కాళ్లు నేలను తాకుతున్నాయి—అప్పుడు అతనికి రక్త సరఫరా ఆగిపోతుంది. అపార్ట్మెంట్ చాలా విషాదంగా, ఒంటరిగా ఉంది—మురికి పాత వార్తాపత్రికల కుప్పలు, మురికి చాపలు, పాత ఫర్నిచర్, మురికి షేడ్స్తో కప్పబడిన కిటికీలు.”
**(1:53:48)** “అన్నీ ఆత్మహత్యలా కనిపించింది. నేను పోలరాయిడ్ కెమెరాతో ఫోటోలు తీసి ఆఫీసుకు వచ్చాను. నా చేతికి ఆపరేషన్ జరిగింది—సాగ్తో స్నాయువులు కట్ అయ్యాయి; చేతికి ప్లాస్టర్ ఉంది. సాధారణంగా వెళ్లే ముందు శరీరాన్ని దించేవారం. ఈసారి చేయలేకపోయాను. ‘మోర్గ్ వ్యాన్ పంపిస్తాను; లిగేచర్ పైన కత్తిరించమని చెప్పండి’ అని పోలీసుకు చెప్పి వెళ్లాను.”
**(1:55:00)** “ఆఫీసులో ఫోటోలు చూస్తుండగా ఆశ్చర్యం కలిగింది—అతను ఉరివేసుకున్నది పెద్ద నారింజ రంగు ఎక్స్టెన్షన్ కార్డ్. అది గోడపై ప్లగ్ చేసి ఉంది. ‘ఇంట్లో కరెంట్ లేదు కదా—అది ఎందుకు ప్లగ్ చేసి ఉంది?’ అప్పుడు అర్థమైంది—అతను నాటకం చేశాడు. పోలీసుకు ‘ఎవరూ శరీరాన్ని తాకవద్దు, కత్తిరించవద్దు. బల్బులను బిగించి చూడండి’ అని చెప్పాను. నిజంగా కరెంట్ ఉంది. అతను బల్బులను తీసేశాడు లేదా వదులుగా ఉంచాడు—‘కరెంట్ లేదు’ అని కనిపించేలా. ఉరివేసుకునే ముందు తనను తాను ప్లగ్ చేసుకున్నాడు—అతన్ని దించేవాడికి ప్రాణాంతక ఎలక్ట్రిక్ షాక్ వచ్చేలా.”
**(1:56:05)** “నాకు షాక్ రాలేదు ఎందుకంటే నేను అతన్ని దించలేదు; దించలేదు ఎందుకంటే నా చేతికి ప్లాస్టర్ ఉంది. ప్రపంచ శక్తులు ఎలా పనిచేస్తాయో చూడండి—కొన్నిసార్లు మంచి కారణం కోసం చెడ్డ సంఘటన జరుగుతుంది. అతను ఎందుకు అలా చేశాడు? ఆత్మహత్య చేయాలంటే చేయండి, కానీ ఇతరులను ఎందుకు గాయపరచాలి? ఎందుకంటే వాళ్లు కోపంతో, అసంతృప్తితో ఉంటారు. ఎవరూ శ్రద్ధ తీసుకోరు, ప్రేమించరు, స్నేహితులు లేరు—ఒంటరితనం వల్ల కోపం పెరుగుతుంది. ‘నాతో పాటు ఒకరిని తీసుకెళ్తా’ అని భావిస్తారు. స్కూల్ షూటర్ల గురించి నాకు కూడా అదే అనిపిస్తుంది.”
**(1:56:59)** “శాంతిగా ఆత్మహత్య చేసేవాళ్లు కూడా ఉంటారు—గుండె పగిలిన వ్యక్తి బాధను భరించలేక మాత్రలు తీసుకుని, మద్యం తాగి నిద్రపోతాడు. భవనం నుంచి దూకేవాళ్లు నేలపై పెద్ద శబ్దంతో పడతారు—‘నన్ను చూడండి, నాకు బాధగా ఉంది’ అని చెప్పడం లాగా. ఒక కేసులో జులియార్డ్ సంగీత విద్యార్థిని—బహుశా వయోలిన్—ఆమె చిట్టి లేఖ రాసింది: ‘ప్రియమైన, గౌరవనీయ తల్లిదండ్రులారా, వయోలిన్లో ఫస్ట్ చైర్ రాకపోవడం కోసం క్షమించండి. మిమ్మల్ని నిరాశపరిచాను. క్షమించండి, సిగ్గుగా ఉంది. మంచి రోజు గడపండి.’ తర్వాత పేరు. ‘మంచి రోజు గడపండి’—అది passive-aggressive కోపం. ఆమె వారిపై అంత కోపంతో ఉంది—అత్యుత్తమ వయోలినిస్ట్ కాకపోవడం వల్ల వారిని నిరాశపరిచిందని భావించి ఆత్మహత్య చేసింది.”
**(1:58:30)** “వేల మరణాలు చూశాక ఉత్తమ మరణం ఏది?”
“నిద్రలో చనిపోవడం—ఖచ్చితంగా. ప్రియమైన వ్యక్తి పక్కన, మంచి భోజనం, మంచి సాయంత్రం తర్వాత, ఆలింగనంతో నిద్రలో శాంతిగా చనిపోవడం.”
“కానీ మీరు ప్రేమించే వ్యక్తి జీవితకాలం ట్రామటైజ్ అవుతారు.”
“అవును. అతను చల్లగా ఉండటంతో మేల్కొని ‘దేవుడా’ అని అరుస్తారు. నేను ఒకప్పుడు ఆలోచించేదాన్ని—నిరాశలో ఉన్నప్పుడు—‘95 ఏళ్ల వయసులో వీధిలో నడుస్తుండగా వెనుక తలపై కాల్చి క్షణంలో చనిపోతే బాగుంటుంది; వార్తాపత్రికల్లో పెద్ద కథ వస్తుంది—ఉత్సాహవంతమైన స్త్రీ తన ఉచ్ఛస్థితిలో హింసాత్మకంగా హత్యకు గురయింది’ అని. ఎందుకంటే అనారోగ్యంతో ఎనిమిది నెలలు పడకపై పడి చనిపోవడం కంటే అది నాటకీయంగా ఉంటుంది.”
**(1:59:46)** “మీరు మరణం గురించి ఇలా ఉత్సాహంగా మాట్లాడటం, దృశ్యాలను ఊహించడం నచ్చింది—మరో పని దినం లాగా మాట్లాడుతున్నారు.”
“అది నిజమే. చనిపోయిన వాళ్ల చుట్టూ ఉండడం నాకు ఇబ్బంది కాదు. కానీ నిజం చెప్పాలంటే—నేను చూసిన చాలా కేసులు అంత చెడ్డవి, విషాదకరమైనవి, క్రూరమైనవి కావడం వల్ల అవి నా ఆత్మను నలిపేశాయి. ఈ పని చేస్తూ గుండెను ఎలా ఉంచుకోగలరు? పిల్లాడు హత్యకు గురయిన సీన్లోకి వెళ్తే షాక్ చాలా భారంగా ఉంటుంది. ‘లేదు’ అని అనిపిస్తుంది. కానీ మీరు పరదా పడవేసి, కవచం ధరించాలి. భావాలను ఆపాలి—లేదంటే పని చేయలేరు. బాధితుడి కోసం, కుటుంబం కోసం పనిలో పరిపూర్ణంగా ఉండాలి. నేను అన్నింటినీ మూసివేసి ఖచ్చితంగా పని చేస్తాను; ఏదీ మిస్ అవ్వను.”
**(2:00:40)** “రోజు ముగిసి ఇంటికి వెళ్లి ఆ కవచాన్ని తీసేసి కుటుంబంతో ఉండాలి. కానీ కొన్నేళ్ల తర్వాత అది సాధ్యం కాదు. సానుభూతి, ప్రేమ పోతాయా? భావాలు లేకుండా అయిపోతారా?”
“భావరహితం కాను, కానీ మూసుకుపోతాను. ముఖ్యంగా 9/11 తర్వాత. అది భారీ విషాదం. అక్కడ పనిచేసి, ఆ ప్రజల అవశేషాలను వెతకడం చాలా భయంకరం. అమెరికన్లు ‘మేము సురక్షితం, శక్తివంతం’ అని అనుకుంటారు—కాదు. నేను చాలా కాలం పూర్తిగా మూసుకుపోయాను. సంబంధాలు నిలవలేదు. మాట్లాడలేకపోయాను—ఇంటికి వచ్చినా ఆ రోజు చూసిన భయంకర దృశ్యాలే గుర్తొచ్చేవి. భాగస్వామి ‘కిచెన్కు పెయింట్ వేద్దాం’ అని అన్నప్పుడు ‘దయచేసి పెయింట్ గురించి మాట్లాడవద్దు; ఫ్లోరిడా వెకేషన్ గురించి మాట్లాడవద్దు. నాకు ఆలోచించలేకపోతున్నాను’ అనేవాన్ని. మనం ప్రేమించే వాళ్లకు అది అన్యాయం—మనం అక్కడ లేము కాబట్టి.”
**(2:02:11)** “ఇప్పుడు ఎందుకు అలా అనిపించడం లేదు? World Trade Center Health Program ద్వారా నాకు చాలా మంచి థెరపీ లభించింది. అద్భుతమైన థెరపిస్ట్ ఉన్నారు. ఆ ట్రామాలన్నింటిపై పని చేసి, అవి మనసు వెనుకకు మసకబారేలా చేశారు. ఇప్పుడు నేను జీవితాన్ని పూర్తిగా ఆనందిస్తాను—ప్రేమిస్తాను, జీవిస్తాను, ఆడుతాను, స్నేహితులు ఉన్నారు, ప్రతి క్షణాన్ని ఆనందిస్తాను. అది ఒక వరపు.”
**(2:03:10)** “ప్రజలు మీ పని నుంచి ఏం నేర్చుకోవాలి?”
“రెండు విషయాలు. పుస్తకం పేరు *What the Dead Know*. మృతులు తమ నిజమైన మరణం ఎలా జరిగిందో తెలుసుకుని ఉంటారు; నేను శరీరం, సీన్ను పరిశీలించి ఆ కథను చదవడానికి ప్రయత్నిస్తాను. రెండోది—అనంత పశ్చాత్తాప క్షణం. చనిపోతున్నప్పుడు కొన్ని నిమిషాలు ఉంటే ‘ఎక్కువ ఆడుకోలేదే, ఎప్పుడూ పనిలోనే ఉన్నానే, పిల్లలతో ఆడలేదే, వాళ్లను ఎప్పుడూ అరిచానే—దానికి ఏం ఉపయోగం? గది శుభ్రం చేయించడం కంటే బయట బంతి ఆడి ఉండాల్సింది. చిన్న విషయాల గురించి ఎంత ఆందోళన పడ్డానో; తప్పు విషయాలపై ఎంత శ్రద్ధ చూపానో’ అని ఆలోచిస్తారు.”
**(2:04:09)** “ఎవరూ చనిపోయి ‘ఇంకా ఎక్కువ పని చేసి ఉండాలి’ అని అనరు. ‘ప్రేమించే వ్యక్తులతో ఎక్కువ సమయం గడిపి ఉండాలి’ అని అంటారు. కాబట్టి ప్రతిరోజూ నేను కృతజ్ఞత క్షణాన్ని గుర్తుంచుకుంటాను—మరో రోజుకు ధన్యవాదాలు. విశ్వానికి, దేవుడికి, నమ్మే శక్తికి ధన్యవాదాలు. నడవగలగడం, చూడగలగడం, వినగలగడం, రుచి చూడగలగడం—ఎంత పెద్ద వరం. మరణ రేటు ఇప్పుడు 100%—ప్రతి వ్యక్తి చనిపోతారు. కాబట్టి ప్రతి రోజు కృతజ్ఞతను నమ్ముతాను.”
**(2:05:25)** “మరణం గురించి ప్రజలు వినకూడని ఒక విషయం?”
“భయం వల్ల వినకూడదు అనుకుంటారు. ప్రతి ఒక్కరికీ స్వర్గం లేదా నరకం ఉండవచ్చనే నమ్మకం ఉంటుంది. ‘ఏమీ లేదు—అంతా ముగిసిపోతుంది’ అని నమ్మడం ఎవరూ ఇష్టపడరు. చాలా మతాలు ఇది ఒకే జీవితం, చనిపోతే అంతా అంతమే అని నమ్ముతాయి. విశ్వ వెలుగుకు తిరిగి రావడానికి అవకాశం లేదు; తిరిగి రావడానికి అవకాశం లేదు. అది ఆలోచిస్తే విషాదం, భయం. నేను కొనసాగుతానని నమ్ముతాను—అందుకే మరణానికి భయపడను.”
**(2:06:22)** “ఎవరూ పాటించకూడని ఒక సలహా?”
“‘ముందు నువ్వే—నంబర్ వన్ను చూసుకో’ అనే సలహా. అది ఖాళీ జీవితం. మనం ప్రపంచ సమాజంలో ఉన్నాం. ఆఫ్రికాలో పిల్లాడు ఆకలితో ఉంటే అది నన్ను, నా కర్మను, నా పునర్జన్మను, నా సంతోషాన్ని ప్రభావితం చేస్తుంది. నేను కేవలం నన్ను మాత్రమే చూసుకోకూడదు; ప్రేమించే వ్యక్తులను, సహాయం చేయగల వ్యక్తులను చూసుకోవాలి. ఆఫ్రికాలో ఆకలిని ఆపగలనా? లేదు. కానీ ఫుట్పాత్పై కూర్చున్న, ఆహారానికి డబ్బు లేని వ్యక్తికి ఆహారం ఇవ్వగలను. డబ్బు ఇవ్వను—సిగరెట్లు కొనవచ్చు—కానీ అతనితో కలిసి రెస్టారెంట్లోకి వెళ్లి ‘ఈ వ్యక్తికి భోజనం ఇవ్వండి; నేను చెల్లిస్తాను’ అంటాను. చిన్న పని, పెద్ద ప్రభావం.”
**(2:07:18)** “డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్గా మీరు చెల్లించిన వ్యక్తిగత ధర ఏమిటి?”
“చాలా కాలం భావాలను మూసుకుపోవడం. భావోద్వేగపరంగా అక్కడ లేకపోవడం వల్ల పోగొట్టుకున్న సంబంధాలు, స్నేహితులు. 9/11 వల్ల కొన్ని ఆరోగ్య సమస్యలు ఉన్నాయి, కానీ నిర్వహించగలవు. బహుశా అతి పెద్ద నష్టం—నిరపరాధ నిర్మలత్వం పోవడం. ప్రజలు తెలుసుకోకూడని విషయాలు నాకు తెలుసు. నేను చూసిన వాటిని ఎవరూ చూడకూడదని ఆశిస్తాను. ఎన్నోసార్లు ‘అది చూడకపోయి ఉంటే బాగుండేది’ అని కోరుకున్నాను. ప్రతి ఒక్కరూ అందం, ప్రేమ, సృజనాత్మకత, ఆనందంతో కూడిన జీవితం గడపాలని ఆశిస్తాను. డెత్ ఇన్వెస్టిగేటర్ కావాలంటే సిద్ధంగా ఉండండి—అది కఠినంగా ఉంటుంది.”
**(2:08:42)** “మీ కథలు పంచినందుకు ధన్యవాదాలు.”
“ధన్యవాదాలు. మీతో మాట్లాడటం ఆనందం.”
“మీరు అద్భుతమైన కథకురాలు; అపారమైన ధైర్యం ఉన్న ధీర స్త్రీ. అలాంటి ధైర్యం అరుదు.”
“ధన్యవాదాలు. నాకు మీరు విషయాలను వివరించే విధానం చాలా నచ్చింది. ఇది నాకు మోక్షం లాంటిది—దాదాపు 25 ఏళ్లు మరణం, నిరాశ, విధ్వంసం మధ్య గడిపాక ఇప్పుడు మరింత సృజనాత్మకమైన, లేత విషయాలు చేయాలని అనుకుంటున్నాను. నాకు కథలు చెప్పడం అందుకే.”
**(2:09:29)** “నాలాంటి మంచి స్త్రీ ఇంత భయంకరమైన పని ఎందుకు చేస్తుంది అని మీరు ఆలోచించవచ్చు. ఎందుకంటే అది నాకు ముఖ్యం. నేను చేయగలను, ఇతరులు చేయలేకపోతే—నేను చేయాలి. ఏదో విధంగా చనిపోయిన వాళ్ల నుంచి నాకు భయం లేదు; వాళ్ల చుట్టూ ఉండడం ఇబ్బంది కాదు. వాళ్లు చాలా సురక్షితం. నాకు భయం కలిగించేది బతికి ఉన్న ప్రజలే—చనిపోయిన వాళ్లు కాదు.”
**(2:09:54)** “ఈ ఎపిసోడ్ను చివరి వరకు చూసినందుకు ధన్యవాదాలు. మీకు నచ్చిన, నచ్చని విషయాలు, ఈ షోలో మీరు చూడాలనుకునే అతిథుల గురించి కామెంట్స్లో తెలియజేయండి. మీ ఫీడ్బ్యాక్ ప్రతి ఎపిసోడ్ను ఇంకా మెరుగుపరచడానికి సహాయపడుతుంది. తర్వాత కలుద్దాం. అప్పటి వరకు—కలిసి *Figuring Out* చేస్తూనే ఉందాం.”
Transcript:
(00:00) a man [music] who had a wife he was crazy about, but he was wildly jealous. And one day they were coming into the apartment building and there was the building manager and she looked at him and said, "Oh, hello." And they went into the house and he went insane. He started screaming. He thought she was flirting.
(00:19) And so he stabbed her [screaming] so many times that there was blood on the ceiling, the walls, the floors. Yeah. He had stabbed her I don't 80 times. There was nothing left to stab. Can >> a dead body move or like make sound? >> It's happened to me. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because even after they're dead, they stole all those gases inside them.
(00:42) Now, there's a story that there was a rookie cop and they said to him, um, you know, you're going to sit and guard this body. And he's sitting there and he's very afraid. And then as the bodies it jerked a little, it moved and then it made a sound like he got so frightened that he shot it twice. Tell me the moment you walk into a death scene.
(01:11) What do you first look at? I don't look at the body first. I stand at the doorway and I take in the totality of the scene. Now I'll start examining the body and look for a stab wound or a gunshot wound. I'll look under the fingernails and see is there flesh or hair or blood because someone was fighting for their life. Now when a dead person lays on the floor like this on their back, the blood settles down through gravity.
(01:36) But [music] if I go in there and see that the his back is all purple and yet his left side has it's like red blood. I know he was originally on his side and then [music] they when he died and then they put him on his back. I know when the body's been moved. There's no accurate specific way to actually find out what time a person died.
(01:56) >> Not unless somebody saw it because in movies you just see that somebody would come out and they tell that this person died XYZ time. >> Lie. It's a lie. >> How do killers fool? >> They can fool us. Tell me three smartest way that somebody has fooled you. >> Now then I'd have to kill you because you know the secrets.
(02:20) >> What's the weirdest object that you've seen that somebody is used for killing? >> Well, what are the biggest mistakes murderers make? >> Thinking that they won't get caught. You've experienced thousands of deaths. What do you think? What's the best way to die? In your sleep. Absolutely. Are there signs that somebody will turn into a killer? I'm excited. I'm nervous.
(02:50) I'm a little bit scared. I have a small favor to ask you. I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations. And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well.
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(04:15) [laughter] I'm [gasps] I'm excited. I'm nervous. >> Don't be nervous. >> I'm a little bit scared. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Why? >> I don't know. I just everything you will say I'll have visuals in my head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That scares me. >> Well, I can assure you of one thing. The safest people in the world are dead people.
(04:43) They will not hurt you in any way. However, you're right. Seeing some of the ways they die is absolutely horrible. So, I was going through your work, okay? And I found out that you have investigated more than 5,500 deaths. >> That's right. >> You have spent two decades reading bodies and crime scenes. >> Yeah. >> And you have seen suicides, murders, accidents, personal revenge, disasters up close.
(05:10) >> I have. And then you say that after going through all this work, you've realized that debt tells you the stories which living beings can't. >> That's right. >> Welcome on Figuring Out, Barbara Butcher. It's [laughter] uh >> Thank you so much. I am pleased to be here. >> It's my pleasure.
(05:31) If someone's watching you for the first time and they have no clue what you do. >> Okay, I'll tell you. tell them what is debt investigator and what will people learn by the end of this podcast? >> Okay. A death investigator um in United States anyway we have uh we have two systems coroner system and medical examiner system and each of those systems is charged with investigating deaths in particular violent deaths, suicides, accidents, things like that.
(06:04) and homicides. Of course, we also have to look at natural deaths. So, if a elderly woman dies alone in her apartment, we have to go make sure that nothing bad happened. So, what's the purpose of that? Well, for one thing, it's for justice. >> So, if someone is murdered, we want to know who did it and why, and so that we can catch them.
(06:30) We want to prevent that person from committing any more homicides. So you would think, oh well, why don't you just do an autopsy? The forensic pathologist does an autopsy and in looking at that body, they see the cause of death. So suppose the man on the table has a gunshot wound to the head. Fine. Cause of death is gunshot wound.
(06:54) But what is the manner? Was it a homicide, a suicide, or an accident? That's my job. >> The death investigator goes to the scene and takes in the entire context. What is the room like? What is his life like? Where is the evidence? Is there blood spatter on walls? Are there bullet marks on the ceiling? And what does the body tell me? We could get into that more deeply later, but everything I'm doing there is to find out how did this death arise.
(07:28) So, if I go into a room as I have and seen a young woman clutching an automatic weapon and there's a close contact gunshot wound to her head, the abrasion ring, the gunpowder into the wound, I know it's close contact and if I get a good story from her friends or neighbors like, "Oh my god, I tried to stop her.
(07:55) " Then I know it's likely a suicide. Now, this one case I'm thinking of was terrible. Um, a young woman said to her friend, "I'm going to kill myself. I can't stand it anymore." Her boyfriend left and she was heartbroken. So, the friend said, "Give me that gun." And took it away from her. And the girl said, "No, no, give it back to me.
(08:16) I promise I won't do it." So the woman, her friend, pulled out the chamber and gave it back to her. She didn't realize there was one round of ammunition still in the barrel. So when the girl took it, there was still a bullet and she shot herself self in the head. Now that's a clear suicide. I have an upset witness.
(08:43) I have everything I need to see right in front of me. But then I go to another case out on [snorts] Hston Street in New York and there's a group of young men 17 18 years old and they're shaking. They're so frightened and their friend lies dead on the ground in the middle of the avenue and they said that he had just gotten a new gun. His very first gun.
(09:09) It was a Saturday night special, which is like a 32 revolver, very cheap, flimsy. And that morning he was showing them tricks like a cowboy. He was spinning the gun on his finger and it hit the he it flew off, hit the ground and shot him straight between the eyes. So his first shot was his best shot and his last shot.
(09:36) Now, could you imagine a thing like that? How they could happen? So, it was an accident. Now, of course, we don't really believe that right from the beginning. We think, "No, they're just making this story up." But I saw on the pavement on the sidewalk a little piece of concrete that was chipped and the little dust of it on the on the hammer.
(09:59) So, I knew the gun had hit just that way. And his friends were were crying and shaking. they couldn't make this story up. Um, so I said, "This is definitely an accident." And then about two hours later, a guy came by, a truck driver, and said, "I was going to work this morning and I saw this kid playing with a gun." So that cemented it.
(10:22) But if it's a homicide, now I have to get a whole another set of of evidence of facts of um um Yeah. Now, I'm not just looking to see what is the manner of death. I'm looking to see who did it, when did they do it, why did they do it? And I'll see that in the scene and in the body. So, what I do, I investigate the scene.
(10:48) I work with the police closely, but it's an independent investigation because we might have differences sometimes. You know, they say, "No, that's not a murder barber. Come on. Come on." [laughter] Yes, it is. So, uh, once I gather all that evidence and do all my photographs of the scene, my measurements, I write a report and take it to the forensic pathologist who's going to do the autopsy the next day.
(11:17) Then they're now doing an informed autopsy. >> They say, "Oh, yeah, gunshot wound, manner of death, homicide." And then we, you know, we give the police all the information we've gathered so that they can better investigate and find the person. That's my job. It's It can be fascinating and it can be very daunting. >> Yes. Oh, absolutely. >> Based on what kind of perspective you're looking at from But the moment you walk into a death scene, okay, what do you first look at? like in the first 30 seconds >> what is that you're trying to find out and where do you actually look at where
(12:00) which most of the world would actually ignore it's a very good question I don't look at the body first in fact I stand at the doorway just inside and I take in the totality of the scene the feeling of the room the zeitgeist the atmosphere I want to see what what kind of person is this, what kind of life, what kind of home.
(12:26) Like I said, I want to see how they live. And so, taking in the entire scene and then I'll put on my booties and, you know, tieback covers and all that and go around the perimeter taking my photographs of everything all around. Then I zero in on the body. I do my photographs, the overalls, but I haven't touched it yet.
(12:52) What I wait to do is now crime scene, they're doing fingerprints and things like that. >> I say, "All right, guys. I'm ready." I bring them over now. I'll start examining the body. I'll open the shirt and look for a stab wound or a gunshot wound. I'll look under the fingernails and see is there flesh or hair or blood because someone was fighting for their life.
(13:12) um I will determine the time of death which is an art as much as it is a science. You have the rigam mortise the stiffening of the body >> and that happens over a period of oh eight 8 hours the body becomes more and more stiff. First the small muscles like the jaw and fingers then the larger muscles like the legs.
(13:39) After about 8 to 10 hours, that body is so rigid that if you lifted it up, it would not bend. So if I see someone fully rigid like that, that's about 8 hours ago. >> Now I look at the lividity. That's the settling of the blood. >> When a dead person lays on the floor like this on their back, the blood settles down through gravity and it stays there for a while.
(14:07) And then after about 8 to 10 hours, it becomes fixed like you can't move it. But if I go in there and see that the his back is all purple and yet his left side has it's like red blood, a little bit lighter. I know he was originally on his side and then they when he died and then they put him on his back.
(14:29) I know when a body's been moved. >> So now that takes a certain amount of time. Then I take the body temperature. The body loses about 1 1/2° of temperature every hour uh Fahrenheit. So in a room of the average oh 70 72° I take the temperature of the air then the temperature of the body. Usually a rectal temperature is most accurate.
(14:57) [snorts] And now I divide. So, if the body started out roughly 98 and is now 90, that means they've lost 8° of temperature. Divide by 1.5. >> That's each degree you lose is 1.5 per hour. And now I come out with what does that come out to? 56 hours. Whatever the math is. So, is that enough? No. >> No. >> Because common sense.
(15:29) You have to have common sense. So, one day I'm a brand new investigator and I go into a a room with an elderly old old man has died and his whole family is there and they're so upset. He is the beloved patriarch of this family and they're all crying and I I said, "All right, I'm going to go examine him." And I did.
(15:52) And when I came out, they said, "Could you tell us what time he died because we'd like to have a special church service at that time?" I said, "All right." And I went back in and I just recalculated. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. Three, take away the 7 4* 18, you know. And I came out and I said, "He died right around midnight." [snorts and laughter] No. No. I spoke to him at midnight.
(16:14) I spoke to him at 12:30. I was like, "Oh my god, I forgot the most important question." when was the last time anyone spoke to him alive or saw him alive because these these calculations they have great variability >> great variability it's a lot of interpretation so >> see >> after that I learned ask the right question if there's no one to ask you can also do things like look at the newspapers if the newspapers are on the front of the house not picked up yet that says Saturday Sunday, he probably died Friday. If he had food delivered,
(16:54) there's a receipt on it with the timestamp, right? So, we use common sense. >> So, there's no accurate specific way to actually find out what time a person died. >> Not unless somebody saw it. If we have it on videotape, yes, if someone saw it. Because in movies you just see that hey like somebody would come out and they tell that this person died XYZ time >> lie it's a lie that's why I get very irritated with some shows um some of the true crime shows they they have a do or or even the fictional ones they have a medical examiner who
(17:33) shows up on the scene a forensic pathologist well first of all what did she do leave the autopsy table to come to this death scene? What about her work? She has three cases to do. And she comes in and she looks at the body a couple of times and then she pokes her finger in something and says that looks like a 9 mm.
(17:53) What? What? What did you stick your finger in the hole and measure it? And then they say uh you know dead about I'd say about 4:30ish 4:30 this afternoon. Why was there a bullet hole through his watch and it stopped at 4:30? >> [laughter] >> Right. [snorts] So, the the the shows get it all wrong. Now, my show, The Death Investigator, we're very very careful to do everything and explain everything accurately.
(18:23) There's no magic tricks. So, I've been thinking for years there must be a way to design an app >> that will take body temperature, ambient temperature, pictures of the lividity, estimates of and calculate it all and it says, you know, 11:45 a.m., you know, so far nothing. >> Nothing. There's no like accurate formula.
(18:47) >> No, there isn't. >> It's it's a guess. >> It's a guess. How close can you be? Like how close can you get to accurate time of death just by investigating >> just by using all those factors >> and can you actually probably go to autopsy lab and take blood sample or tissue sample and then actually predict >> that same time >> they've tried >> no >> in fact uh a lot of scientists and researchers have tried using the potassium levels of the eyeball we draw the fluid out and estimate.
(19:23) Did the potassium shift into the cells or into the fluid? No, >> nothing. Okay. >> So, everything is an estimate. And I never say anymore uh 2:00 p.m. I say sometime between noon maybe four. A four. I give you a four window. >> Yeah. >> And even that, you know, can you can be fooled. Now, one thing that fools you is when cops come in and fool around with things.
(19:54) So, sometimes I come into an apartment and it's freezing cold. And I said, "Why is it so cold in here?" "Oh, we opened all the windows because it smelled." I'm like, "Wait a minute, guys. How am I going to figure out body temperature now? You just ruined everything." And they're like, "Well, Barbara, it was hot in here, so it's smelly.
(20:10) " [snorts] So, we have to be very careful with those things. And that's one of the first questions I ask. What has changed since you got here between that time and my time? >> And if they say, well, we opened the windows, we moved the body. Oh, no, no, no, no. >> Then the whole math is gone. >> It's then it's all messed up.
(20:28) >> And how do you make sure like to roll a body to investigate without even ruining it? Without ruining my evidence? It's not easy. Now, first of all, I don't want to strip the clothes off cuz sometimes there there's evidence on the clothing you don't want to lose. For instance, I had a man who was shot on the street and the guy who shot him said, "No, he was running toward me and I shot him.
(20:59) " And then when I look at his jacket, the collar has a little bit of a bullet. The bullet came through the jacket. But then I look on his arm. There's a bullet hole here. I'm like, "Wait a second. Let me line these up." >> And here's what happened. He was shot. He was going like this. It went through here, through here, past the collar, and into his neck.
(21:27) And I could line it up perfectly. So, no, he wasn't coming at you. He was going like this. Please. No. >> Right. So, so that's very important. Don't mess up your evidence. Now, I do need to see their back, obviously, so I'm careful not to mess up the clothes. Um, I'm also careful about bullets that might pop out. >> Sometimes you turn a body and there's a bullet in the hole in the front and at the back it's just at the edge of the skin and you turn it over and it pops out. That's not good.
(21:59) Um, so when I turn it, it's just very, very gently and I don't remove the clothes. is I just peek up underneath. When we get them in the autopsy room, I can tell a lot more. >> But so why would I want to see the gunshot wound? Why do I need to see that? >> Well, if you think about the physics of bullets, ballistics, when the bullet goes through the flesh, it leaves a little abrasion ring.
(22:27) You know, the skin stretches inward. It's very flexible. So, as the bullet goes in, it pulls the skin and makes a little abrasion, right? A little ring. Now, if it's a straight-on shot, it'll be perfectly circular. If the person is shot from up here as they're standing, it's going to have an angle where the abrasion ring will be greater at the top or at the bottom, meaning shot from below, shot from above, or shot from the side.
(22:59) So, if you're really careful with this and you look for the bullet impact marks on the walls, I can tell you where the shooter was standing and I can tell you the position of the victim. But it's very important to know where was that shooter. If they were right up close, then I'll see gunpowder in the wound.
(23:20) I'll see the the fouling, which is the greasy smoke that comes out of the barrel. So if I see the little stipples of gunpowder burned into the face, I know it was about oh maybe 8 in 10 in something like that. Any further and it falls to the ground. But now if I see I don't see any stippling gunpowder, but I see the greasy smoke around it.
(23:45) I know they were standing back just a little, but they were still quite close. So I can tell you so many things just by looking at that wound. >> Interesting. I want you to demonstrate on me. >> How can you roll a body without actually disturbing the evidence? Can you do that a little body demonstration? I just lay down.
(24:05) >> Yeah. Now if a person is is stiff, it's easier. But see, that's why I tell you be dead weight. Totally relaxed. Okay. Dead weight. Nice and easy. Just breathe deeply. So what I do in order to turn a person over [snorts] carefully place this leg over that one. Okay. And then this arm at the shoulder just like that.
(24:30) Now all I have to do two fingers under the hips and the shoulder [clears throat] and he rolls right over. You see I do it gently so that there's no evidence lost. I don't move any clothing, anything like that. Goes right over. Now I'll examine here under the shirt. Perhaps I'll check the legs if there's any trauma.
(24:51) But it's easy, right? >> So even a small woman can roll over a heavy man. >> The this question because you said someone you can look at a bullet mark and find out whether it was hit from close or far, right? >> Yeah. Can you also tell the relationship or the kind of motive behind death just by the distance of the shoot? >> H to a certain extent. Yes.
(25:23) >> So if it's a contact wound, then we know you know either suicide or or execution style. you come up to someone, put the gun against their head, you're going to get everything I just spoke about, but the gunpowder will be inside the wound and there'll be like a stamp. Um, like if a gun barrel has a little notch at the top, I'll see that because the bang hits the skin, now I know what it was.
(25:52) And this happened in a case I did on my show, uh, the Carnegie Delhi massacre. the the guy who was arrested said, "Oh, no. It went off accidentally. I was holding the gun and I was shaking so bad and I got nervous and it went off." No, it didn't. You lying dog. I know because what I see on the head, I see the contact. You were perfectly steady.
(26:17) So, don't cry to me. >> I'm very harsh about this. [laughter] But have you ever seen that someone who's very close and they're closely related, do they shoot from close or do they shoot from far? Because if sometimes if it's revenge or like a business killing or like a drug killing that usually it's very close.
(26:38) It's not from far away because they want to make sure that the person is dead. >> Yeah. I mean a sniper is very impersonal. M >> so I know it might have been far off but I can't say how far because after just let's say four or 5 ft away now there's nothing for me to see. So he could be 5t or 100 yards with a good sniper bullet but I will notice something about the book bullet.
(27:07) It will have to be a rifled a rifle or automatic weapon kind of thing. Um so yeah that's an interesting thing for me. There are basically two kinds of homicide. One is business and the other is um personal personal and there's also the ones that are done for fun too like serial killers but that's another category.
(27:32) [gasps] I don't even like speaking or thinking about it. However, if it's a business killing it's very efficient. You walk in, shoot him in the head, and walk away. There's no DNA, there's no contact, there's nothing. No fingerprints even. It's business. Now, if I see that the body is stabbed multiple times, punched, beaten, especially at the face, um, beaten, stabbed, strangled, shot.
(28:02) That's so personal. That's killing of rage. So, I know it's someone who knows them. Um, and someone who has such huge anger toward this person. Could be revenge. Uh, could be love. And one of the most brutal killings I ever saw was a man who had a wife he was crazy about. She was a pretty little woman, all nice little jewelry, and, you know, she dressed up nicely.
(28:35) I saw pictures of her in the house and he loved her insanely but he was wildly jealous. And one day they were coming into the apartment building and there was the building manager, the super was in the hallway and she looked at him and said, "Oh, hello." Nodded at him and they went into the house and he went insane. He started screaming.
(28:56) The neighbors could hear, "Why are you talking to him?" He thought she was flirting with the building guy. And so this is the saddest thing. He stabbed her so many times that there was blood on the ceiling, the walls, the floors. Yeah. Just because she talked, nothing else. >> Yes. Because he was so jealous to him in that one incident.
(29:20) After that one incident, >> that's it. That's it. He was always insanely jealous and watched her all the time. But all the neighbors, they said, "Oh, he loved her insanely. He worshiped her." Well, when something happened, when he saw her look at another man, he went psychotic. He suddenly saw, "I'm losing her." And he lost his mind. And he stabbed her.
(29:46) The broom was horrible. It was horrible. It was just blood everywhere. And this poor little woman, all she did was say hello. And the guy jumped out a window. It was only the second story. And we got blood hounds who tracked to her blood and they caught him in the park up in Inwood um you know just running through with the the blood hounds that the the what we call them the actually not blood hounds anymore they're German shepherds but they're you know they're police dogs and they um they found him very quickly because he
(30:20) was covered in her blood. So that gets me so confused. I've loved people pretty strongly, but never like [laughter] that. >> That's not love. That's obsession. That's psychotic behavior. >> Yeah. It's obsession. It's not really love. It's completely >> He didn't kill her just by like shooting her. >> No, no, no.
(30:46) He wanted to punish her for breaking his heart. His heart was probably broken when he somehow the way he saw it in his psychosis, in his insanity, was that that was her lover. and and she was leaving him and the pain and the fear was so great that he had to destroy her. Not just kill her but destroy her. >> And did he tell tell this that she he wanted to destroy and what all did he do >> when they caught him? He said yeah I just >> what did he do like in you? >> Oh how he killed her? Oh he stabbed her so many times and you know when you stab
(31:21) the corateed arteries or cut them the blood sprays it's high pressure. It sprays up onto the walls. And then if you keep stabbing someone, every time you go in, you hit blood and when you pull the knife back, the blood flings or casts off the knife and lands on the walls or even the ceiling. So he had stabbed her, I don't know, 80 times, something so ridiculous there was nothing left to stab.
(31:51) So the it it was just the bloodiest scene I've ever seen in my life. And the poor woman um I hope she died very quickly because this was just But he told the police she looked at the building super. I knew she was having an affair with him. They're like what? So of course you know we we'll get to this mindset of serial killers and things in a while.
(32:20) So when you're at the crime scene, other than the body, what is the most important thing? The witnesses. The witnesses, sometimes they lie, sometimes they tell the truth, sometimes they exaggerate, but most times you can get a straight story out of someone because they're in shock. If they come into the room and see their brother laying dead on the floor, it's like, my god.
(32:49) And now if the police ask them, "What did you hear?" I don't know. I thought he was jumping on the floor. I heard something loud. Um, what time was this? Well, it was 2:00 and I know because I was my my new show just started on the TV. Those things help. The body tells to me, the body doesn't lie. The body tells you what is there.
(33:14) Then the scene, of course. Was the Was the uh room ransacked? Were they looking for something to steal, jewelry or money? Or was it a fake crime scene, which I see a lot. >> What do you mean by fake crime scene? >> Well, they want to make it look like it was burglars coming in to steal. So, they'll pull all the drawers out of the bureaus and chests, and maybe they'll throw some clothes around, but it looks fake.
(33:44) We call it a staged crime scene because they make it look like it was a robbery, but no, it isn't. >> Oh, somebody killed it inside. >> Yeah. Somebody just came in and killed them and said, "I'll make this look like robbers." So sometimes um and the best way you can tell that is you see the room, all the things thrown around, but then there's a box in one of the drawers and there's a bracelet in it, a gold bracelet.
(34:07) So why didn't he take that? Mhm. >> I had one like that recently where um there was something like I think it was $16,000 in a coat jack in a coat pocket and all they they went through and they just opened the drawers and threw some clothes around to make it look like a burglary. They didn't even take the money. So that's pretty damn stupid.
(34:32) Um, you know, you see in the movies all these very brilliant criminals who pull off these, you know, uh, heists. They rob a casino or a bank or whatever. Um, but people who come in to murder somebody, they're not very bright. >> So, they might know a couple of things to do. Wipe off my fingerprints, things like that.
(34:54) Don't eat any food because I'll leave DNA behind. [laughter] [gasps] [sighs] Oh god. >> What if you have to point out let's say three things, three specific things without the body, which is a must when you enter a crime scene. You want to make a list that these are three things I will watch. >> Mhm. [clears throat] Beside the body, besides what's on the body, >> which will tell you a lot about how the person lived and how a person died.
(35:19) >> Okay. Well, number one is evidence of human contact. So DNA and fingerprints. So, how do I know what's DNA and what's fingerprints? Well, um, suppose we have a bloody scene. Person's been killed and there's blood all around. Now, I walk down the hallway toward the bathroom and I see some blood drops on the floor.
(35:45) That's not from the body. How did they get there? So when when a perpetrator stabs someone, very often they cut themselves because as you push the knife down like this, sometimes it hits bone and it goes upward and cuts your hand. See? So now you have to go to the bathroom and wash it off and, you know, wrap it up in a band-aid, >> but you're going to leave one little drop of blood on the floor.
(36:14) And we just did a case like that in my show. One drop of blood. Isn't that amazing? But you have to look for these things. You can't walk in and say, "Oh, yeah. Guy stabbed. That's that. All right." No. I have to go throughout the house. I have to know everything, especially any point of human contact. So, if I see a telephone, I know crime scene is going to want to sw, you know, check that for fingerprints.
(36:42) The door knob, and they're very careful about doorork knobs, right? They might wear a glove or use a towel to open it. But they forget that when they come in, they touched the door sill as they pushed it open, not touching the knob, but they're touching the doors. So that's where we look for prints. So human contact number one, DNA >> and fingerprints.
(37:08) Um, next is [gasps] I would say [sighs] the appearance of the house as to whether or not it was something that was a real burglary where things are missing or a fake stage scene. And in that house, what does that person have that may have been important? So suppose there's a scientist working on a very important project for the government and we come in and we see that he's been shot and we don't see any prints anywhere. Nothing.
(37:46) But his computer's missing. All scientists have at least one computer, right? If that computer is missing, then I know this was a a business job. This was something high level. This is something where they wanted to get some piece of information that he had. >> So, it's not just what's there that you're looking for.
(38:11) It's what's not there. >> There you go. Just This should actually be a class. We should record this and use it to teach people. >> Giving you all my secrets. [laughter] >> I want to ask you for more secrets. Mhm. >> How do you know actually what happens once once the on somebody dies like minute after minute what happens to the body? How does it decay? >> What happens 6 hours later, 24 hours later, what happens to the body? >> Good question.
(38:43) Um, when death is immediate, like uh let's say a gunshot to the head through and through, immediately dead, fall to the ground, >> they will not really bleed that much, but they will leak because they died instantly. The heart is no longer pumping out blood. So, it'll leak from the head.
(39:05) There'll be a good amount around them. Um and then as that blood leaves there are things that happen inside us that [sighs] I guess the best it's like being digested by our own bodies. We have enzymes inside us and as the body dies those enzymes just digest what's there the cell walls and so fluids begin to leak out from the nose. Um so now we have blood we have fluids now >> is that what liver mortis is? No, that's what that's just the ordinary process of a dead body starts to digest itself and to decompose so it can return to the
(39:52) earth and you [clears throat] know which is a very good idea. So as that's happening there are bacteria in our gut and the abdomen and the intestines that normally our body keeps in check. They don't grow too much, but they grow just enough so that they can help us with digestion. When they're not when now they're free to do whatever they want, they start digesting, eating up the internal the internal organs of the body.
(40:24) And when they do that, it causes gases to form. So in the first let's say 1 hour we get the little bit of fluid leaking we get the oozing of blood and now we get the digestion of the body and as that happens the gases build up and over a period of time let's say well it depends on the weather too if it's very hot it goes faster if it's cold it's like refrigeration slows the bacteria down so the gases form and the body begins to swell.
(41:01) And it's not a pretty thing, okay? In fact, it's horrifying. As the abdomen swells, the eyelid swells, anything that's soft in the body, the gases will start to come. Then the skin will begin to rot. Okay? Now, we have not just blood and this the inner fluids, the plasmas. Now we have green horrible things. And this is the point where the smell is so overwhelmingly bad.
(41:37) There is no way I can describe it. I have tried. There is nothing that describes that smell. So horrible. And that's to me that's like a signal like stay away. [laughter] You know it's bad things here. Like a warning almost. Um so then the body goes through all these it's like wet decomposition. On the other hand suppose you die in a desert you bleed a little bit but the fluids leak out? No.
(42:08) In fact the bacteria start doing their little actions. They start digesting things but then they get so dried out from the hot dry sun that they can't even work anymore. There's no fluids for them. So now the body shrinks down. All the water leaves it and we're about 60% water. So the water leaves it and then little animals come and they eat whatever's left.
(42:34) So now what do you have? A skeleton with some leathery like skin over it. So that's out in the desert more. But I did have a case on the lower east side here. Do you know New York? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So back in the 70s and 80s, early 90s, we had squat buildings. They were abandoned. No one wanted them. So people would go in and live there.
(42:58) They'd steal electricity from the street lights and they'd go out and get food and live in these little places. And uh we came upon a man um someone wanted to buy the building. They're looking in the room and there's a man laying on the bed, but he's just a skeleton with a little bit of raggedy clothing and like it looked like leaves, like autumn leaves, [gasps] but it was more like leather.
(43:25) And I'm looking at him and I noticed that all his internal organs are gone. And I said to the police officer, "Well, that's interesting. Why do you think they're completely gone? We still have skin." He said, "Well, because it's very cold here. There's no heat. So, the rats burrowed inside and ate up all the organs so they could stay warm in there.
(43:47) Wow. So, what we had left is just skin and bones. Now, can I tell how long he was there? All I can say is a long time, but I can't tell you if that was 3 weeks or five months. So, that's what happens to a body. the bo I believe that the body wants to return to the earth as an organic substance. Um I personally would like to be buried and become a tree.
(44:21) There are certain cemeteries I've heard about and they dig a hole, put you in a burlap sack and drop you in like crumbled up, not too much space and they plant a very nice tree over you. I would love to go like that. We did that with our dog. >> Did you? Oh, that's so nice. >> There's a tree and every time we look at that tree, we just miss him.
(44:43) >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And and we feel like there's a belief that he's there. >> Oh, he is. He's in that tree. Isn't that a wonderful thing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd love it if people came by and sat by my tree, you know, [laughter] had picnics, you know, keep me company. >> [laughter] >> See, you said something that you can't describe how that smells.
(45:08) If you have to, let's say try. What does death smell like? H regular death just, you know, not rotted like a fairly fresh body. It just smells kind of earthy, organic, warm, like an old grandma. You know, when their skin is just kind of soft and their bodies are just kind of little and they smell a certain way, like kind of stale, it's just the smell of a human being, but without any hormones, without anything like that.
(45:44) But then when they rot, when they decompose, let's see if you took feces, dog and human, put them in a blender, added strawberry ice cream, honey, garlic. H what else? Rotten ground from the woods cuz there's an earthy smell, too. like, you know, decomposed leaves. Put that in there, blend it up, and smell that.
(46:19) It won't smell anything near as bad as a decomposed body. >> That was quite accurate. I [laughter] I could somehow I could sniff it for no reason. >> It's funny, isn't it? But it's true. Even as bad as that would be, it's still not as bad as a rotting decomposed body. Um, you know, I worked in Thailand after the tsunami, >> the Christmas tsunami of 200, what was it, 2004, >> and um they as they recovered bodies, you know, they just they took them to the temples and they just lined everyone up on the ground and in the hot sun and the humidity was god awful. Um, those bodies
(47:05) just decomposed and the smell was You know, you you learn to breathe differently. It's like [clears throat] little gasps through your mouth because you don't [laughter] want to. And there's nothing you can do to stop it. Some people say, "Oh, use Vix Vapor Rub or menthol. Put it under your nose." No, that makes you hate the smell of menthol.
(47:26) >> Oh, yeah. >> There's nothing you can do. So, we smelled that for a long time. Um, they even tried to use dry ice to put all over the bodies, but that made it worse because now they were wet. Um, but I have a picture of that is ghostly. Just ghostly. Really awful. That was a very, very, very tragic thing.
(47:51) Um, yeah, it's hard to get out of my mind. >> Yeah. Can Can a dead body move or like make sounds or have its eyes partly open or feels like it's breathing? >> It's happened to me. It's very scary. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because even after they're dead, really dead, um there's still all those gases inside them.
(48:18) So, I was called to the scene where they had a um a cargo van >> full of junk and in the back was a man who was dead, big, heavy man. And I climbed through the junk. I poked my way in and I found him and he was decomposing. It was awful. And as I went to I moved him till I could see him and he went and it was the gases escaping through his throat.
(48:48) But I screamed and I ran out of the van and I jumped into the arms of a police officer who was laughing like hell. He said, "What happened, Barbara? Did he come alive?" I said, "But he's he groaned at me." [laughter] Actually, he like that. I was never so scared in my life. Now, there's a story, which I think is probably not really true, but police have been telling it for many years, that there was a rookie cop, brand new on the job, >> and they said to him, um, you know, you're going to sit and guard this body until Barbara, the investigator, gets
(49:21) here, and he's sitting there, and he's very afraid, very afraid. It's a little studio apartment. It's right there in front of him. And then as the body starts to go like that, it jerked a little. I'm not sure why. Like maybe the rigger mortise. I don't know, but it m he said it moved and then it made a sound like uh the gas.
(49:48) He got so frightened that he shot it twice. He thought it was like a zombie and he actually shot the dead body. [snorts] So what did they do? Well, of course they took him off the police department. He didn't have the kind of, you know, stomach that you need for this business. But can you imagine the fear? >> Yeah. >> And then there was one that came alive.
(50:14) Uh, one of the guys I worked with, Kenny, he went to the scene of a woman who had taken pills to commit suicide. She's laying on the floor and you know the ambulance had already come pronounced her dead and she's just laying there very pale dead and he started examining her opened her shirt and was looking at her mouth and she popped her eyes open she was actually still alive.
(50:45) What happened is her heart rate, she took Valium, I think it was her heart rate rate got so slow, so very very slow. And the ambulance guys were probably in a hurry. >> They were like, "Oh, they checked the pulse. I don't feel anything." Pulse was just too hard to feel because her heart was barely beating and she was barely breathing.
(51:08) So, poor Kenny, he almost peed himself. I mean, I think he actually did, but he just didn't want to tell us, [laughter] you know, he jumped back and she was actually alive. So, they called the ambulance back again and and Kenny said, "What happened, guys?" You know, like, "You couldn't do it right the first time. Tell me now that she's dead.
(51:29) " They said, "No, she's alive." They ran her to the hospital and tried to save her, but then she died the next day. But can you imagine alive, dead, alive? Poor Kenny. He was so traumatized from that. >> But they couldn't save her. >> No, though she was too far gone. She was really in a coma. Um the eyes popping open was probably more of a reflex than anything.
(51:54) But she was alive when he moved her. Sad, huh? And how do you know that it whether it's a suicide or a homicide? Somebody choked someone to death. Somebody and then hanged them to make it look like it's suicide. Like how do you know the differences between a murder and a suicide? There must be >> well few signs. >> The best example is hanging.
(52:18) We could use that to demonstrate. Um when people hang themselves, they don't really need to stand up on a chair and jump off. That's not how it works. Uh you know, it's not high enough. It's not going to break your neck. But the thing about hanging is that or or strangulation with with hands. If you put someone, let's say like the suicide of Loren, what was her name? MC Jagger's girlfriend.
(52:54) All she did was tie a scarf around her neck, kneel on the floor, and attach the scarf to the doorork knob. She had to just lean forward. And what it did is it compressed the veins, the the big jugular veins here. They're very soft. If you strangle someone and cut off the airway, it's horrible death. You can't get any air. It's painful.
(53:19) If you cut off the corateed arteries, which are strong, the person will pass out. They won't have any air and they'll die. But if you just compress the jugular veins, very soft, just enough to close them. Now you keep getting air, you keep getting blood in your head, but it can't get out.
(53:40) So it builds up and up and it actually feels good as they black out. And we know this because people do it as a sexual play. Mhm. I won't tell you how because I don't ever want [laughter] you to think about this, but yes, that's how people do. Now >> like the blackout they do it for some pleasure. >> Yes.
(54:02) Yes. Because it makes your head go like wow wow wow. >> Yeah. >> And if you do it long enough then you can die. >> Yeah. If you for you you know what they usually do this is called autoerotic asphyxiation. >> What do you what is it called? >> Autoerotic asphyxiation. You smother yourself during masturbation or sex with somebody.
(54:22) Um, what they usually do is they'll put something around their neck and they'll tie it around their finger so that when they pass out the finger, the hand drops and the ligature opens up. But it doesn't always work. And there I come over. Oh, hello. He's got pictures of, you know, naked women and and lubricants and things and he's hanging. And everyone says, "Oh, no.
(54:48) It's a suicide." No, it's not. It was a bad boy game. >> See, it was an accident. >> Yeah, it was an accident. He was having a good time with it and he died. >> And is it a like is it a big thing? Like a lot of people do this. >> Um kind of a lot. Yeah. A lot of famous people have died that way >> that they choke themselves to the point that they they blackout.
(55:12) >> Yeah. And then when they pass out, you know, it loosens. That does not always work. it gets stuck and then you just black out and next thing you know you're dead. Now, how about a murder? What happens is they're either going to use their hands or a liature. So, if they use their hands, you'll see prints, bruising all over the neck, and you can even tell the size of their hands.
(55:40) If they use a liature like let's say a an extension cord, an electric wire, it's usual that they'll go behind the victim, put the ligature around, cross it over, and pull upwards like this. So now I see the mark. The mark of the wire is here, goes up, [snorts] crosses over in the back, leaving a blank part in the skin, and it's very deep because they're pulling hard.
(56:08) That's a homicide. Now, suppose they did that and then they hanged them to make it look like a suicide. Well, it's very hard to lift a dead body, you know. Um, usually takes two people to do that, but if it's a little small person, maybe they could. So, they're already dead. You tie a noose around their neck, throw it over the pipe, haul them up, tie it off.
(56:37) But now what did you forget the positioning? When you do that with someone, it usually goes the rope will go up this way, right? But no, you look on the neck and you see the marks of ligature strangulation at the back. So there are no secrets from me. I can tell what you did. >> And maybe there are two different there are two signs as well. Sure.
(57:02) There could be >> because it would be very difficult to accurately just give a sign at like mark at the exact position where you've killed them. >> Sure. >> Would it be? >> Yeah. Exactly. You you you know there's a mark here, but now you use a rope cuz it's stronger. Not a little scarf. No. >> Or not a piece of little wire.
(57:20) You got to get them up there. You see? So I have only known in my personal cases one where um a handyman strangled a woman with a you know he choked her with a liature and then hanged her >> but she was a small woman he was a big man and it was obvious right from the beginning she did not die by hanging she died by being strangled very sad but how do killers fool they can fool Yes, they do all the time.
(57:54) >> Tell me three smartest way that somebody has fooled you. >> Now then I'd have to kill you because you know the secrets. [laughter] >> Tell me the ones which are out there. >> Okay. The ones that are >> Don't tell me the one which can be used. [laughter] >> Okay. No, I won't do that. I won't do that. >> Yeah.
(58:12) I don't want people to have random ideas. >> Yeah. >> Tell me the ones you you've caught in it. Like you have caught it but it was difficult. >> Let's see. Oh, well, let me see. He got away with that one, >> you know. I can't think of anything except the robbery, you know, ransacking and making it staging a crime scene. [gasps] >> However, oh, oh, wait a minute.
(58:41) When they make it look like there was a sexual assault. Okay. >> M >> so if we come in and see that a woman or a man has been sexually assaulted, there are signs obviously, you know, it's very traumatic. But if a person, let's say a woman is laying on the floor and it appears that she's like her arms are out, legs are out, she's naked, and so this perpetrator wants to make it look like it's a sexual assault, but the perpetrator is a woman.
(59:15) Mhm. Now, when you come in and it looks like someone's been raped, you're thinking man, right? >> Suppose it was a woman that came in, strangled the victim, laid her out, stripped the clothes, and made it look like rape. Then you're thinking of a man. See? But now, fortunately, most women do not kill like that.
(59:44) women who kill. It's either someone attacking their children, their husband who has been beating them for years. Um, you know, it's more personal. >> Is it rare that a woman is killing other women? Another woman. >> Oh, sure. Sure. >> It's not very common. >> I've never No, not at all. Not common at all. >> A man killing another man is common because of business, >> because of revenge, because of hierarchy, because of >> Yeah.
(1:00:11) >> cheating and all of that. Sure. Business business cheating. Um 80% >> women's not killing like women are not killing another women because of let's say cheating scandal with her husband or something. >> I've heard of it but I've never seen it. No, I've seen women kill their husbands or have him killed. I've seen women when we know some the woman who killed her little children in a psychotic episode of postpartum psychosis.
(1:00:44) Um, so women can kill children. Yes, they kill men. I can't think of another case. I've never seen one where a woman killed a woman. [snorts] Um, >> interesting. Why? Why do you think so? >> Well, the main reason might be, suppose you loved your husband, very happy, and a woman came in and seduced him and took him away.
(1:01:08) Who should you kill? The woman or your husband? your husband. Of course, >> no one but >> Yeah. No. Yes. Thank you. [laughter] I forgot that part. No one. Please don't kill anybody. We're going to catch you >> and you're going to be punished for life. >> In your head, both. >> Yeah. >> In reality, no one. >> Yeah.
(1:01:28) So, um yeah, that if that's the case, if they're so angry and so hurt, they're going to kill the husband. >> And you know, God, I've got two cases like that we talked about. Well, you'll see them in my show, but uh yeah, where the woman really got revenge. >> So, you think first of they try to stage a sexual assault.
(1:01:49) That's how they try to fool. >> Sure. >> That's the second way of fooling. >> Um faking a hanging. Oh, wait a second. There is something else. Altering the time of death. A man was known as a hustler. Um he had a little studio apartment and men used to come in and have sex with him and he'd get paid and he was popular so there was a lot of business.
(1:02:12) >> Hustler as in like a >> popular as in like a lot of people came to be with him and paid money. >> Hustler. >> Hustler. Oh yeah. Hustler. A man. >> A hustler is a man who will pick up other men for money. It's a form of prostitution of sex work. Um, and usually these so-called hustlers are men who say they are straight >> but they just want to mess around, try something different.
(1:02:43) And then sometimes when they see the victim and they see the hustler and they're giving him money, the hustler's g I mean the victim is giving the hustler money and they're looking in his eyes and suddenly a hatred comes over him. He has horrible disgust for what he's just done. He can't admit that he has homosexual urges. He can't.
(1:03:10) It would be too awful >> because a straight man is going to this guy. The straight man can't actually >> Exactly. >> accept it. >> That's right. He can't accept what he just did. So what does he do? He beats in the face of the guy who he paid because he doesn't want him looking at him. It's called internalized homophobia or homophobic rage.
(1:03:33) >> When he do it by his own will and concern, >> I know, but there's something psychotic about them. I've got a couple of these and it's very sad. In fact, when I walk into an apartment and it's extremely well decorated, and you know, the victim may be on the floor, nicely dressed, a beautiful home, and then I see that his face has been bashed in with a a vase or something or a baseball bat, and he's dead, that's first thing I think of is who did he meet in a bar? Who did he pay for sex today? Um, and usually it's true. So this guy,
(1:04:12) he had his customers and the neighbors said, you know, there were always people in out about every two hours >> and he worked a lot. And we came there because there was a fire in the room in the apartment. The fire department got there, they saw it was very smoky. There was flames around the bed on a bureau.
(1:04:31) They put it out and I came in. Laying on the bed is a man who is um has been obviously stabbed. You know, his face has been beaten. He's been stabbed in the chest. And um the reason the fire started is that the bureau at the foot of the bed had big candles on it and little candles and they were all lit and they were the drawers were opened and the candles were placed at the edge of the drawer so that as they melted down eventually it was set fire to the close.
(1:05:07) So now, how can I establish the time of death? If I can get a reasonable estimate of time of death, we know who was there >> because there's videos in the hallway, right? >> So, who was it? >> There were two guys who came between noon and 4. Which one is it? I don't know. Because now he's been smoked.
(1:05:34) The temperature is all wrong. I don't know what time he died. This person, this perpetrator, set it up very cleverly so that he'd stab him and then he set fires. Yeah. >> But just enough so that he could get out safely. And they were slow fires. They were smoky. >> So when I got the man out in the hall to examine him, his skin was like yellow, leathery because the heat was slow.
(1:06:04) It like baked the skin. Um, I couldn't tell rigger mortise because the firemen had moved him and you know, so that breaks it up. Um, I couldn't tell algamortis because he had been rolled all around and every part of him was covered in smoke and it was very a bit of early decomposition which is skin slippage. Sometimes after you die the skin becomes loose and if you pull it, it will actually come off.
(1:06:33) So, I saw on his lower legs that the skin had come off. Was that because he was there a long time? No, it's because the firemen pulled him out by his legs and their rough gloves made the cooked skin come off. So, I couldn't tell what time he died. Nobody could. >> And were you able to catch the guy? >> No.
(1:07:01) No. In this country, about 60% of homicides are solved. >> Only 60. >> Only 60%. Now, >> 40% of >> killers, they're out there. >> And nobody is able to catch them. >> That's right. >> In the most powerful country in the world. >> That's right. This most powerful country has very uneven resources. In New York City, it's hard not to get caught.
(1:07:27) You're going to get caught because we have everything. We have the best DNA labs, the best detectives, the best, you know, crime scene unit. >> Yeah. There's surveillance, there's a bunch of things. >> Right. Right. Now, when you go out to the Wisconsin, the Dakotas, where they don't have maybe they only have one forensic pathologist for the state or the county. In New York, we have 15.
(1:07:50) We have 45 investigators. see out in the country in order to get DNA done they have to have a budget for it. They have to send it all to a state lab. Um and they don't have the experience, you know, if they get Oh, I I was working with one guy the other day who's only had one homicide in nine years and he's a homicide detective.
(1:08:14) I said, "What else do you do?" He said, "Well, you know, I help out." So, [laughter] can you imagine one homicide in nine years? I've got 680 in 10 years, you know. So, um it's pretty it it's it's very uneven. So, it's it's kind of easy. If you do it out in the desert, out in the the plains, you're going to have a better chance of getting away with it.
(1:08:36) Not in New York, not in Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles. Nah, >> no. >> No, I mean, we still don't get all of them. >> Yeah. I was just going to point out like some shootings and things which have happened >> Yeah. in California and New York as well. >> Sure. >> And they've not been caught. Nobody know where. Yeah.
(1:08:58) No, nobody has any clue where >> one single clue. Right. Like >> And they've done it open out there in public and nobody knows. >> That's right. They walked down the street, shot somebody, they drove away. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> How is that possible? >> You know, even in New York, that happens. A drive by shooting. These kids in gangs, you know, they have nothing. So they take risks, bad risks.
(1:09:25) [gasps] They think, I want to live the life of a drug dealer. Even if I die by 30, at least I'll have a car, clothes, diamonds, money, girls. That's not how it works. Usually get killed pretty quickly. But these guys, you know, they'll get a couple of teenagers in a car. They'll drive past a a place where there's all people hanging around and they're looking for someone who's their enemy and they shoot into the crowd and they shoot a couple of people cuz they're not very good at shooting and they shoot people and they
(1:09:56) kill them and they drive away and in the shock and horror not everybody knows to look for the license plate and sometimes that's a stolen car. You see? So those sometimes don't get solved. However, now in New York, we not only have video cameras everywhere. We also have something um I'm not even sure what they call it, but if a gunshot is heard, it alerts the police department.
(1:10:25) A gunshot has a very particular sound. >> And I know this because it happened to me. I was living up in Harlem and I was walking across the street at to the subway and suddenly ping I heard the crack of gunfire and the bullets hit the building corner in front of me passed about 10 ft in front of my eyes and I was like and I hit the ground right and another [clears throat] woman was there and I yell hit the ground and we both got down on the ground we crawled toward the subway I was furious I had a nice outfit on. And there was
(1:11:02) three gunshots, right? Two of them hit the building. The other one, no one was killed. But I was so angry. I called the police department. What the hell was that? And they said, "Well, you know how these gangs are. They start shooting at each other, but it wasn't They weren't aiming at you.
(1:11:19) " So I said, "Wait a minute. I don't care. I don't care if no one was killed. They were still firing a gun and there's a playground just half a block away." So they're like, "Oh, no, no. We're going to find them. We'll get them on the video cameras." But my god. So, but here's the thing. Police responded immediately.
(1:11:36) I didn't even have to dial 911. >> Soon as the ping ping ping, they hear it. They have sensors. Maybe they called them listeners. I don't know. >> That's a good thing. >> Yeah. But police in New York have great technology. Really good. So, don't come over here to kill anybody. Anybody [laughter] not worth it. Do you can you look at a body and actually tell that if the person has died peacefully or was it a violent death? You know, it's very hard to tell um because even if a person is being badly hurt, you know, strangled or something or
(1:12:19) stabbed and their face in that moment might be, you know, screaming or the eyes open. When you die, everything kind of relaxes, you know, it just goes, your face falls, everything just falls. So, I really can't tell. um if they died peacefully or not. Now, you know, I had a little old lady. She was dead in the bed and we went over because, you know, she was alone and there was medicine on the night table for heart disease.
(1:12:53) She was old and normally a little lady like that would be laying in the bed peacefully with the covers on her. But there was something funny. The covers were pulled. They were messed up. and her drawers were open. There was nothing in them to steal, but they looked like they had been searched, not just tossed out.
(1:13:15) And we found out that a neighbor's son had gone in there and strangled her. But what he did really was smother her. Now, how did we know that? Because if you hold your hand like that over somebody's mouth, particularly an older person or a child, they go like this to get away. And when they do, it leaves abrasions. Their teeth araid the inside of the lip.
(1:13:41) You lift up the lip and you see it and you're like, "Wait a minute. She was smothered." >> Yeah. And that little fren, it's called the frenulum, a little web of tissue that holds your lip to the gums, that can sometimes tear if you're doing that. See, so many things to know. >> Yeah.
(1:14:01) I I'll I have some pictures to show you. They're all blood spatters. >> Okay. >> Uh, can you tell me what happened where? Because every blood stain is going to tell you a different story, right? >> All right. You're you're you're catching me by surprise here. >> All right. This is blood swipe. All right. It's been is something came across a little pool of blood and drew it in a line.
(1:14:27) >> Okay. >> Okay. Uh, this is interesting. Now, blood drops. We can tell a lot about them. If it's straight down like that, it means it fell straight and round. But when it's like this, this means that the drop was moving. Okay. But in this, this is a kind of a strange one. It looks more to me like someone took a drop of blood and then smeared that way.
(1:14:52) But now, if I see, let me see if you have any of these. Oh, here. Blood spatter. Okay. Oh, this is called drip. Okay. So, blood splashed here and drip straight down. This ah this is blood spatter. Now, this is interesting. Now, now you can see the movement I'm talking about. When a person is running and the bloody knife is dripping, you'll see the blood will hit the ground and then it will streak that way and it will leave like a little tail and that tail points you in the direction that the person was moving.
(1:15:34) See? So you can see that here. You can see the blood moved a drop and then it smeared. >> So this is like mostly a knife killing. Are you telling me? Uh, it's not it's not you can't be sure. It could be also a hammer. You know, when you hit somebody with a piece of wood or a baseball bat, it splashes up just like that.
(1:15:55) Um, all right. Yeah, this is pretty much straight down blood drip. >> What's this? >> Oh, look at that mess. H. This looks like something that was faked. Faked. faked. Yeah, this doesn't look real. This doesn't look like a real crime scene. >> Someone tried to >> Yeah, it looks like someone was flinging >> like how could it be so even flinging blood and then strips down.
(1:16:27) >> Can't be like multiple stabs. No. >> No. No. They wouldn't. Is this the wall? I think this is a cinder block wall, right? >> Yeah. >> This doesn't look like anything that I've seen. >> No, it looks fake. >> That's a fake study. Oh, like they were like they're doing a test for the police here.
(1:16:46) Interpret this, >> you know, and they they did it. >> But they're trying to mess it up in like they're trying to mess it up on purpose. >> Yeah. To do this. >> Flashing it. Yeah. >> What does this say? >> High velocity blood spatter. When a clot of blood or like let's say a gun from a gunshot push out pieces of the brain when they hit it's high velocity so they spray out all around right one single bit of tissue brain matter or a blood clot traveling at a high speed. in this one.
(1:17:30) Can't even tell what this is. Is this a pipe? No, I don't even know what that is. Looks like a pipe. >> They're doing it at all. So that I can see from this side, like from that side. So that >> Mhm. >> Oh, it's the muzzle. Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] Here we have the muzzle and as the projectile went in as probably God got shot a shotgun uh the blood [clears throat] blows back. Yeah.
(1:18:04) >> What does that mean? >> Splashes back just means close contact, close range. >> Somebody shot it. Somebody >> So somebody shoots let's say the abdomen when it goes in like a gunshot from a from [clears throat] a shotgun >> it some will splash back and go into the gun. >> No. >> And what's this? >> Oh this could be fling or cast off what they call it now.
(1:18:36) You know when you pull the you hit with a bat makes blood, you come back for more and the blood casts off onto the wall. >> This is like second or third. First Oh, yeah. Second strike, right? You're right. Yeah, that's what that looks like. And what's this? Like these are two different types of blood. >> Mhm. Oh, this is drying blood.
(1:18:58) Um Oh, see here the blood. Here's a big pool of it. But the blood has different components to it. More liquid like plasma, the more solid like red blood cells. So it separates. You see here we have all the blood and here is the plasma which is orange and yellow. It just separates away from the rest of the blood. Just simple physics.
(1:19:24) This here and this part is more dried. This I don't know. Looks like somebody cooked it. It's like clot. >> Yeah, it's all but the blackness of it either very old or someone heated it up. >> Oh, do you think it is because the blood was just lying there for like long time? >> It's Yeah. I mean, it's it's this is a very this is clotting like you normally see.
(1:19:53) This is a very old clotting of blood. It's all dried up. >> Just like weeks. >> Yeah. What is the tiniest clue that you've seen that completely changed your investigation or what completely changed about a death that you used to believe? H that's [clears throat] a very good question. Well, oh, how about this? A woman is stabbed to death.
(1:20:30) Brutally stabbed. There's no sign of forced entry. Looks like someone was just able to walk in or she let someone in because she knew them. All right. And now I'm feeling I'm thinking of family. And so I have to explore the family with the police. Who are they? you know, did she have any fights with her sisters, her aunts, her husband, anybody? Someone she knew came in there and stabbed her.
(1:20:59) Now, then I also see that her face has been punched. Punched repeatedly, but I don't see big knuckle punches. You know, when you smash somebody in the face, you can see the individual knuckles sometimes. This looks more like like this, right? Like it's a softer strike. And who hits like that? A woman, not a man. So that gives me another clue.
(1:21:32) Somebody, it might be a woman. Then I see that there is a big butcher knife, a big kitchen knife 10 in on the hallway in the hallway outside the bedroom where she is dead. H, that's probably the murder weapon. And now I go into the kitchen and I see that there's one of those blocks that you put your knives in.
(1:21:59) And sure enough, there's the missing one is the big one. But I'm looking at it and there's something wrong. It's not bloody enough. First of all, what am I thinking? It's a weapon of opportunity. The person who killed her probably didn't go there to kill her. They had a fight of some kind. Because if she was just going to murder her, why not bring your own knife? Why not bring a gun? Why not? And why beat her face? probably started arguing and start punching her, hitting her.
(1:22:34) And then you're like, "Oh my god." Uh, she saw me. I can't leave her alive. She's unconscious, but she'll tell everybody I'll go to jail. I better kill her. All right. Let me see what we got in the kitchen here. And they're looking at the knives. I will try this one. But when I see that big knife in the hole, a, it's not bloody enough.
(1:22:58) It should be soaked for all these stab wounds. And when I look at the stab wounds, I can tell the size of the knife. If it's a little skinny stab wound, it's probably like a a little um kitchen knife. If it's a big wide one, more like a butcher's knife. But these are different. They have a little edge like we call it a scalloped edge. It's not a clean slice.
(1:23:25) It's just like little waves. And what does that tell you? >> Steak knife. >> A serrated edge knife. Now I go back to the kitchen and I see, okay, in that block there's only one big knife missing. But I look on the side of the counter is another like um what you call a piece of pottery and it has more knives in it. Like just junk knives.
(1:23:50) What's in there? Couple of steak knives. Hm. That means she'd probably use the steak knife. [gasps] So then why? And by the way, there were five steak knives left. Usually they come in a set of six. Okay. So one was out on the counter cuz she was chopping up a salad. Um, four were in the jar and one's missing. M.
(1:24:17) >> So, what I think is that, you know, why wouldn't she hide that big knife? Why'd she leave it right there on the floor? >> To make us think that some big man came in and grabbed a big knife and stabbed her. I mean, what's the what's the thinking there? Well, the truth is there is no thinking.
(1:24:38) They don't know what the hell they're doing. So, what really was the weapon was the stake knife and she took it with her. And I say she, right? >> That woman killing another woman. >> That's what I think. Yeah. I believe, you know, they said, "Oh, it must be the handyman across the street." I said, "No, something's telling me woman.
(1:24:56) " Okay. And that's probably the punches like this. >> That's why you were saying the men don't kill like this. >> No. Men men stab like that, but when they're going to beat someone's face in, I don't know if you ever been in a fight. I hope not. >> Never. >> But you know, they do like this. They punch punch punch with the hard knuckles.
(1:25:17) Women might go like this in a fit of rage like they're arguing. So maybe it's two sisters. They're like, you know, yo, you slept with my husband. You know what I mean? Something like that. So pinging, punching, punching. And she's like, oh, damn it. I got to kill her. I can't let her tell everybody that I beat her to death. >> Yeah. >> So yeah.
(1:25:38) >> What? >> That's right. That was the woman onwoman killing. Yeah. >> H. And what's the weirdest object that you've seen that somebody's used for killing? >> Uh, fireplace tool. In, you know, in fireplaces we have here, you get like a little set of tools. Uh, they're usually black iron and there's like a poker.
(1:26:05) >> Okay. >> There's a hook to move the logs around. And there's also something I'm not even quite sure what it's there for, but it's a long thick rod and at the end this two like little curved forks. So when I saw on this guy's head, he had been hit multiple times with probably the fire poker, but there was a pattern of these two little curved hooks, and that one was not in the fireplace set.
(1:26:39) So, I figure the killer used a fire iron. Fire do you call? Yeah, fire iron. Used the one that had the hooks on it, beat him in the head, and then took it away. Have you se I was reading somewhere that you have seen satanic rituals? >> Oh, yeah. What are they like? >> Um, what I've seen is I don't think they were satanic rituals.
(1:27:04) I think they were um there's Eoruba >> things that are done. It's Afrouban. Um there are different religions and spiritual beliefs that use sacrifice. Usually a dog or an animal would >> But what did you did you see? Have you seen it? >> I've seen them in a very interesting place in New York. There was a woman named Irene Silverman. Mhm.
(1:27:31) >> She was very wealthy and she was very very nice. So two a mother and her son came to Mrs. Silverman's home and said, "We have no place to live. Could you help us? You know, we're my job. I got fired. My son came to stay with me. Now we have no home and we'll help you. We'll clean the house.
(1:27:51) We'll take care of things." Sure. Come on in. >> Yeah. >> And they came in and then they realized, well, this is a pretty good job. we could have this house if we wanted it. We could have her money, her jewels, we could have everything. And they were a couple of grifters. Grifters are conmen. >> And this woman and her son um Sante and Kenneth Kimes they um she disappeared suddenly and suddenly they were owning her house and everything in it.
(1:28:25) So when the relatives called the police, couldn't find Mrs. Silverman anywhere. I got a call from a psychic >> who said, "Barbara, I think I know where she is. There's a big field out in New Jersey and I think she might be out there. I just have a strong feeling." >> I said, "All right, I'll go. You know, we'll go out there. Not a Saturday.
(1:28:46) What the hell?" [clears throat] Now, what am I looking for when I'm looking in a field for a buried potty? Well, first of all, when you dig a a grave, put the person in and put the dirt on top, the dirt settles, right? As the air gets compressed out, it settles. Now, you're going to see a dip in the ground. >> Okay? >> And if it's been there for a while, you're going to see that if there's all grass and weeds over that area, the grass will be much greener because it has the fertilizer of the body.
(1:29:23) So, I'm looking around for that. And now the psychic has like a a tool and she's going around looking for the magnetic pulsations of the earth to tell her where the body is. [laughter] And you know, it's like, okay, whatever. But then we come upon we come upon some railroad tracks and they're abandoned. And on those railroad tracks is the skull of a dog, a bowl with clotted blood in it, feathers, [snorts] um a cross like a crucifix, and oh, little bit bits of what look like like a dried heart, like a heart from an animal.
(1:30:09) And I believe that was a Santaia ritual. And that was scary to be out there looking for a body and seeing this strange little ritual set up in the middle of a railroad track. I had a really hard time with that. I thought, my god, what if the people who killed her were like putting a spell on someone? I don't know.
(1:30:35) Anyway, they never found Mrs. Silverman's body. They believe that the house next door that was being built that she was in the foundation and cement was poured on top of her. That's what they believe. But how are we going to prove it? Have to take down a whole building. >> Do do you believe in ghosts and stuff? >> You know, generally speaking, I don't believe in ghosts.
(1:30:58) However, in my family, there is an absolute ghost. In my great-g grandandmother's home where my mother grew up, um my mother was a little girl. She'd sleep upstairs in this old house. And at night, she would hear people crying and fighting, a man and a woman. Long way off. And then when we were kids, as we got old, you know, she used to say to my my great-grandmother, "What is that?" She said, "Oh, it's nothing.
(1:31:25) People fighting." Then when I got older as kids, we used to play there and we go up the stairs and we when we got to the stair landing, your belly your belly sinks and it's a cold feeling. So we'd run very fast right through. And I asked my mother about it and she asked her grand her grandmother again and she finally told her that my greatuncle Al was very very jealous of his beautiful wife Kora and he thought that she was flirting with a young man who worked in the grocery store and they were fighting and crying and
(1:32:04) there was a loud shot heard and someone ran upstairs and found fell dead on the on the stair landing. Kora was nowhere to be found. So they assumed that she had run away with this young man that she was interested in or he thought she was interested in. So they had the funeral downstairs as we used to do in those days and the body was in the casket and everyone was talking about where did Kora go? Did she go back to Italy? And um then some workmen went upstairs to fix a furnace in that room and they screamed because hidden behind the
(1:32:48) little furnace the heater was the body of a young woman stuffed into a trunk and her arm was hanging out and it was Kora. So what my uncle Al did was shoot her, put her in the trunk and then shoot himself. And [clears throat] you can hear those noises there. And you can feel the cold even today. >> Even today.
(1:33:16) So how can I not think that there might be something to it? Maybe. But do you think you hear them because you can imagine because you've lived that not because the ghost is still there? I think that metaphysically what I believe is that our bodies are matter and that what makes us alive which gives us you know we call it a soul is energy.
(1:33:43) It's universal energy that comes from the great source. And when we die, the energy just leaves and goes back to the source and that's that. However, if there is something so painful, so emotional, so [gasps] horrifying that the soul is blocked somehow from leaving, perhaps that's what we're sensing there.
(1:34:07) That little bit of energy on the stairway. >> Yeah, that's that's what they say in our religion as well. >> Oh, no kidding. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like if there's an unfinished business of the soul, the soul stays there. >> It'll it'll find its way and it'll keep suffering until it finds its way to actually finish the work or the purpose why it was there on why there was life.
(1:34:30) >> Wow. >> And then once you have finished [snorts] that purpose, you've achieved that purpose, then you actually get free or else you keep suffering. I wonder if I could go there and help them to get over their >> to get over their pain and let go and go back to the source and perhaps they'll come back in other pieces or other people or maybe they'll break through the cycle of reincarnation.
(1:34:57) >> Yeah. You believe in reincarnation and stuff? Well, I believe that when a new body is born, that another packet of energy comes into that baby as they're born and makes it alive. So sometimes that whole packet might contain the the the memories, the thoughts, the feelings of someone who died before.
(1:35:22) Sometimes it's a little tiny bit of that packet because they all get mixed up. So there are some people who can talk about a life and describe it from 50 years ago before they were born. They say, "Oh, that was my life." I know a little boy uh at 5 years old. We were having dinner with his parents and he suddenly started crying and said, "Mama, when I come back, I want to come back into this family.
(1:35:55) " And she said, "What?" He said, "Yeah, I I I want to come back in your stomach. I I want to come to this family again." And he was really upset. And she said, "Of course you can come back here." And he was like, "Mama, please promise me I can come to this family." Well, he scared the hell out of me because the emotion was so real. And I could see that he wasn't making this up.
(1:36:18) He was just a little boy. So, yeah. And of course that scares me because my life is so wonderful now. It's had its ups and downs [laughter] but and things have been tough. But each of those things taught me something and now I've come to a place of peace as much as I can hold on to that because you know the world is going crazy.
(1:36:42) But um I wouldn't mind coming back maybe as a French woman. [laughter] That would be fun. >> Does it ever happen that a family killed some family member? They make it look like it's normal. >> Mhm. >> And then they [clears throat] close the shut like they close the case because nobody's actually complaining the police.
(1:37:06) >> That's right. >> Does that happen a lot? >> Sure it does. >> The state or the police is not like, "Hey, no, we need to investigate and figure out." Or they're like, "Let it be if the family doesn't object." >> Well, here's what happens. There was a case I had where um two men lived with their old mother and uh she died at home and uh they called the uh the ambulance who pronounced her dead and they called her family doctor and said look mom died in her sleep last night.
(1:37:43) And the family doctor said yes I'm not surprised so I'll sign a death certificate. Nobody called us, right? So, they buried her in New Jersey in a grave very quickly and then they had her inheritance. Then we got some calls to the police where neighbors were saying, "Look, I know that lady just died, but her sons, they used to hit her.
(1:38:09) She always had bruises. She always had something wrong. She was always injured. She could barely walk out of the house. It was very And the [clears throat] police were like, "Well, you know, I mean, does this can you give us anything more specific?" Well, yeah. One time she had her arm in a sling. I think it was broken.
(1:38:32) And so it got to a point where these people gave so much information that the police called us and said, "Look, we think you should dig up her grave and let's have a look, right?" And we did. Now, this poor lady, was she buried in a nice burial robe? No. She was in a dirty old house dress and torn underwear as if they just threw her in the cheapest coffin they could find and buried her.
(1:38:57) They said, "Clothes casket. Nobody nobody sees her." We dug her up and she did have injuries all over, bruises, old healed, broken bones. [gasps] I believe that they actually beat her. But can I prove it? Maybe she fell down a lot. And that's what the son said. Oh, she was always hurting herself, always falling down.
(1:39:27) But to me, the kicker was the fact that they just threw her in the grave without even putting her in a decent dress. So, I feel like, yeah, they heard her and she died from that. Who can prove it, though? >> Nobody. >> Nobody. >> It's hard. I hate those cases. >> Usually, when somebody kills somebody, the murderers.
(1:39:51) What are the biggest mistakes murderers make? >> Thinking that they won't get caught. They think they're so smart sometimes. Oh, going to wear gloves so that um I don't leave any fingerprints. >> Yeah, >> I'm going to clean up all the blood. I'll use ammonia. Yeah, ammonia is good for cleaning up blood. Well, they're wrong on two counts. One, the inside.
(1:40:15) If you use a glove like a dishwashing glove to kill and you're killing someone and then you just take off the gloves, rinse the blood off and put them in the sink. I can go inside that glove and get your DNA. That's number one. Number two, ammonia does not kill blood. It doesn't kill DNA, right? It cleans it up, but there's still traces.
(1:40:41) So, the crime scene unit will bring in alternate light sources, special lights that they can shine on the wall. They spray a thing called uh luminol and that makes the blood shine like fluores and we can see the blood on the wall or the blood on the guy's shoes. So yeah, they think they're smart. They Oh, I know how to cover up a murder. No, you don't.
(1:41:02) >> You can outsmart them. >> That's right. That's right. And the police, the crime scene unit, they know every trick. >> Mhm. Then if you have to draw um let's say if I give you this to draw what are the four biggest categories or what are the four biggest reasons why people kill other people? >> What are the four biggest reasons why they kill? >> Yeah.
(1:41:25) So what would be those? >> Okay. Okay. Money. H revenge. >> Okay. >> What is it? Money. Hate. >> Money and business. >> All right. >> Okay. Hate. Revenge. >> Hate. You know, like I don't like foreigners and I I'm going to I'm going
(1:42:09) to go shoot them. You know, these young crazy people do this. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> They just want to kill, let's say. >> Yeah. Remember that kid who went into a demonstration? I think it was Palestinian people. They just start shooting at people. >> They kill out of hate because they're frightened of foreign people.
(1:42:28) >> Is it because race, color? >> Yeah. Race, color, religion, being gay, any of those things. Yeah. Okay. >> Revenge. >> This is personal. >> Your husband has cheated on you and he's been doing it for a long time. He made a fool out of you. All right. I'm going to hire a couple of guys to come and kill him. And then here's a big one.
(1:42:53) The man's cheating on his wife. He finds, you know, she's been boring to him. He's getting older. He wants to have young women. And then he falls in love with a young woman and now he wants to get a divorce, but he doesn't want his wife and children to have his money. So, what should he do? Hm, let's see.
(1:43:16) Either I could give her child support and pay her alimony, or if I could get rid of her, then I keep all my money and my girlfriend and I can go get married. That happens a lot. >> Is that a big reason you've put in a top four? Yeah. Well, what else is there? What other reasons can you think of to kill people? >> I was asking that is a big reason.
(1:43:38) It happens a lot. >> Sure. Look at these American shows. Uh look at like Scott Peterson. Um all these these things where the the wife they say she commits suicide and then everything starts to look funny. And when you begin investigating, you find out he has a girlfriend. Then you go talk to the girlfriend and she's frightened.
(1:44:02) She knows if this man she loves killed his wife, he could kill her. >> Yeah. So they tell the story. >> So if if you were to point out, let's say out of 100 deaths, >> h >> what would be how many would be this this rough estimate? >> It depends on the year. Now when I first started out in the business in 1992, we were getting about 2,400 homicides every year just in New York City.
(1:44:30) So about 70% of them were business. It was drugs. That was the crack epidemic. That was, you know, drugs were driving people crazy. There was all those uh, you know, the cocaine wars, all that stuff. So it was business. And they are very, very hard to solve because it's two unknown guys.
(1:44:51) One shoots the other one, kills them. Then the victim, his brother, comes and shoots other members of the gang. And it goes back and forth and they're killing each other left and right. That was the big majority. Then the personal killings, you know, husband wants to get rid of his wife. Yeah. Kills her.
(1:45:11) That that would probably be number two is the personal or like someone broke your heart. You got to strangle her. >> Um >> today, >> h >> what would it be like today? >> You know, I don't really know right now. This there's hardly any homicides in New York. maybe 300, 350. So, some of them are like, oh, the hate, like the guy Luigi who allegedly, you know, shot a man who was a working in a pharmaceutical company.
(1:45:42) He hates him. I'm just going to shoot him on the street. >> Um, today the hate would be the biggest. >> Not the biggest. No. >> Out of all four, which one like what would be scenario? Like today >> would be like top four. Uh the top two would be money and business and the personal you know between a a couple or people in a family.
(1:46:07) Revenge is not that much and hate it doesn't happen that much in New York certainly. So, it's kind of hard to give you a breakdown, but I'd say the two major ones >> this and this >> money and business and then personal jealousy, love, wanting to get rid of your family so that you can go live with a mistress on the Caribbean island.
(1:46:28) [laughter] >> How do they live after doing this? >> I don't know. Because you know, you see them, they get arrested and they go to trial and they found guilty and now they're going to be in jail for the rest of their lives. These these guys like only 40 years old and that's it. Your life is over.
(1:46:52) Why don't you just pay her the damn money? Pay for your children's education. Pay for your wife who helped you build your business. It's just money. Are there are there signs that somebody will turn into a killer? Rage, you know, these these personal killings. Uh I think a lot of times they're done in a psychotic rage like you just you can't stand it anymore and you kill someone.
(1:47:24) And um that would be a person who was known to be rageful, have temper, you know, have attacks of anger and rage or beat their wife or beat their husband. Some women hit their husbands. Yeah. So they have rage. I don't know why, but it's part of their psychological makeup. >> See, you've you spent enough time in New York understanding death.
(1:47:48) >> All my life. If I show you a map of New York, can you tell me what kind of neighborhoods will have what kind of homicides or deaths? >> No. >> No. >> I can tell you what neighborhoods have the most homicides. >> Okay. >> That would be um in Brooklyn. >> If I show you this >> certain neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
(1:48:09) >> Let's see. >> You're going to make me draw things. >> Okay. >> You can point it out. >> Okay. Let's see. in Brooklyn. I I would say that East New York has a good number. >> Wow. >> Um Crown Heights Heights because there's still poor people that live there. >> Uh there's still people that, you know, sell drugs.
(1:48:29) Um but you know what's interesting is that Brooklyn is really changing and it's now in many ways more expensive than Manhattan. Now, as more young people move there, young people with money, it gets gentrified and then the poor people are pushed out and then they go do homicides elsewhere. In Manhattan, it would probably be up here in the 34th precinct.
(1:48:50) That used to be the most homicides in Manhattan. I don't know what it is now. And then in the Bronx, it would be scattered around places like [gasps] oh what used to be the Oh, maybe it still is. um the market area with trucks coming in and out delivering food and meat and things like that and people used to rob them, rob the truck drivers.
(1:49:12) They used to be prostitutes down there and then they were easy to kill. >> Staten Island and Queens. >> No, Stanton Island. Nothing. Nothing. >> Queens. >> Queens maybe a few, but they'd be personal. >> They won't be like >> No, they won't be like crazy, you know, drug drug things. But, you know, in Brooklyn around the projects, you know, the the housing areas where there's government housing, you know, that's where you get kids with guns like just shooting at each other and they hit innocent people, you know.
(1:49:47) So, but it's so hard to tell if you only have 350 homicides. Like, what are the statistics? >> But what's the most unsafe area today? Which one is the most un unsafe area in New York? >> Oh, you know what? I couldn't say because there aren't really many areas left. >> Still, if you had to still point out like there still there is some left.
(1:50:07) >> There actually is not any county or town or area that I could point to. It's more scattered now. There's nothing. It's just everywhere. Just in any country in this world, you can have areas where crazy people just go out and kill someone. Or look at the school shooters. My god. My god.
(1:50:30) Why is that happening? >> That is one of the strangest phenomenons I've ever seen. >> And it's happening left, right, center. You keep hearing about almost every state. >> Yeah. >> That California. >> Mhm. >> I mean, and you would assume that California is safe and it's rich and it's great. >> It Yeah. Like Connecticut, >> a very wealthy town, nice schools, little children, and some guy Dylan, whatever his name was.
(1:50:57) We don't even say their names anymore because they should disappear from history. Goes in there with a gun and just starts shooting little children. And then what do they do? They kill themselves. And I say, "Wait a minute. If you're going to kill yourself, please just do it. Why do you need to take other people with you?" Well, there's a reason.
(1:51:19) Because they're angry. They are young teenage boys who are confused and lonely and frightened and they take a few drugs, even just smoking pot and it makes them worse and they start to think everyone in the world is against them and they get darker and darker in their minds and they're so angry.
(1:51:44) They feel like the world is against me. Why don't people be nice to me? Well, because you act like a lunatic. you walk around the school in black clothes with, you know, hoods on and and then they just go and shoot children. It's because they are enraged with anger and unhappiness. >> Your first suicide case that you investigated was about an angry man.
(1:52:09) >> Oh yes. >> And you were about to kill yourself. >> Oh my god, that was the craziest case. Yeah, that's the first story in the book. Um this man uh I was called. They said, "Uh there's a suicide. There's a guy hanging in his apartment and it was late at night and I went over there and um all the lights were out.
(1:52:31) " The cops said, "Well, I think the electricity was turned off. Probably he didn't pay his bills." Very dark. He had a flashlight and I had a flashlight. So, you know, I go in and look at the guy and it's just a heavy man, white man, very pale, and he's just hanging from a pipe. Um, nothing unusual.
(1:52:53) Uh, you know, his feet were touching the ground because it stretches the rope. He just cut off blood supply. And the apartment was so sad and lonely looking. It just had stacks of dirty old newspapers. The sheets on the bed were filthy. The the fa furniture was just old and dirty and it just looked awful. Even the windows were just covered with filthy old shades and it was dark in there.
(1:53:24) And um the cop I was teasing him. I said, "Where are the detectives?" He said, "Well, you know, they came here earlier and then they said, "Oh, it's a suicide." And they left. I said, "Well, that's not very nice. I wanted to come up and hang around with the guys and, you know, talk about the case. So, um, I went in there and I looked around and everything appeared to be like a suicide.
(1:53:48) Now, I'm taking pictures and back then in '92, '93, we used Polaroid cameras, right? Before digital, so I take my pictures, the flashlight lights, the flash lights up the body. And I went back to my office. Okay. Now, the strange thing was that I had had an operation on my hand. I was using a saw and I cut through the tendons and so my hand was in a cast. I couldn't use it.
(1:54:17) Normally, what I would do before I left was to cut the guy down. I would hold the rope and then very carefully cut above my hand and let him I mean I couldn't ease him down but I could let him down a little easier just you know didn't break his head. Um but I couldn't do it this time because my hand was in a cast.
(1:54:41) So I told the cop, "All right, I'll send the mor wagon and the guys will cut him down, but please tell them to make sure they cut way above the liature." All right. Then I left. I get back to my office and I'm looking at the pictures and I'm writing up my reports and I see something interesting in the flash of the camera.
(1:55:00) I see that what he's hanged himself with is one of those big outdoor extension cords. They're orange. Very hard, very tough. That's a good thing to hang yourself with. It works. But here's the funny thing. Right next to the body on the wall, the end of that cord was plugged into the wall. I'm like, wait a minute.
(1:55:21) Why is that plugged in? There's no electricity in the house. Right? Then I realized, wait a minute, I think he faked this. What he did? Well, I called the cop and I said, "Look, don't let anybody touch the body. Don't cut it." He said, "What's the matter?" I said, "Just go do me a favor. Turn the light bulb.
(1:55:42) Screw them in and see if they're loose." He goes and does it. And yes, there really is electricity. But this guy took out the bulbs or left them so loose that they didn't work to make it look like there was no electricity. And then when he plugged himself in before hanging, knowing that whoever cut him down might get a deadly electrocution shock.
(1:56:05) But why didn't I get shocked because I didn't cut him down? And why didn't I cut him down? Because I cut my hand with a saw. You see how the the powers of the universe work? Sometimes a bad thing happens to you for a good reason. So I was thinking, why on earth would this guy want to do that? Why don't you, if you have to kill yourself, okay, but why try to hurt someone else? Because they're angry.
(1:56:36) They're so unhappy and no one pays attention to them. No one loves them. No one is their friend. They're lonely and they get so angry. All right, I'm taking somebody else with me. And that's how I feel about those school shooters. So enraged. I'm going to make other people suffer the way I do. Their parents of these children are going to suffer.
(1:56:59) Then there's the peaceful suicides. Someone who has a broken heart just can't bear the pain anymore. They take pills, they drink some liquor, and they go to sleep. And then like people who who jump off buildings, land in the street with a huge noise and could possibly hurt someone on the ground, hit them. They're saying something.
(1:57:23) Hey, look at me. Look at me. I'm in pain. And this one case I did, the young woman who killed herself was a student at Giuliard, a music student. I think it was violin. And she wrote a note. She said, "Dear and honorable parents, I am so sorry that I did not make first chair for the violin. I have let you down.
(1:57:52) I am so sorry and ashamed." Have a nice day. And then her name. Have a nice day. [laughter] That is passive aggressive anger. She was so angry at [clears throat] them, she let them down just because she wasn't the best violinist. So, she killed herself, but she made them feel like right? After investigating all these deaths and going through certain experiences and more than you've experienced thousands of deaths.
(1:58:30) What do you think? What's the best way to die? in your sleep. Absolutely. If you can just go to sleep next to somebody you love after a fine dinner, a good evening, cuddled up, then you just die quietly. >> And then the person you love will be traumatized for life. >> Exactly. Right. They wake up because you're cold and they're like, "Ah, my god.
(1:58:53) " But here's something I used to think about. I know I don't want to die because I'm having a very, very good life. I want to enjoy it. But in times when I was just depressed or, you know, things were bad, I'd think, I wish that I was 95 years old walking down the street and someone shoots me in the back of the head and I die instantly. And then there would be a big story in the newspaper.
(1:59:18) Vibrant, lively woman dies in her prime, shot, brutally, murdered in the streets. Lovely, wonderful woman. Because if you get sick and you lay around in bed and it takes you 8 months to die and everybody's like, "Oh my god, we got to take care of her every day, [laughter] that's a drag." But if you go out dramatically with a big bang, then it's like, "Wow, everybody notices.
(1:59:46) " Poor Barbara. Oh my god, she was so wonderful. [laughter] >> I love how lively you are talking about death and like making up scenarios and imaginations like another day at work. It is. Yeah. Because I don't mind being around dead people. Now, let me tell you the truth, though, that many of the cases I saw were so bad, so tragic, so brutal that they crushed my soul.
(2:00:15) How can you do this work and still have your heart? Well, when I walked into a scene and it was just awful, like a child dying or something like that, being murdered, the shock is very bad and you're like, "No." But what you have to do is drop the curtain, drop a shield. You have to stop your emotions because you're no good.
(2:00:40) You can't do your work. If you're all feeling, "Oh my god, this poor child. I must be perfect at my work for the victim." and for the family. So I close it down and do my work precisely. I don't miss anything. Now hopefully when the day ends, you can go home and lift that shield up and be with your family. You know what? After a couple of years, you just can't.
(2:01:11) Do you lose empathy and love and just this little feeling >> when you do certain kind of work like this? >> Like do you become emotionless? Do you do you feel numb? >> Not emotionless but shut down. Yeah. For many years especially after 9/11 now that was >> traumatic. huge tragedy and to have to work down there and find the remains of these people and oh the work was just so awful and it was so frightening because Americans always think well we're so safe we're so powerful. No, we're not.
(2:01:48) And so [sighs and gasps] I was completely shut down for a long time. I couldn't keep a relationship. I couldn't speak because I'd come home And I was thinking of all the horrible things I'd seen that day. And then my partner says, "Oh, look, we're going to have to paint this kitchen. I can't stand this color anymore.
(2:02:11) Maybe on Saturday you could we could paint." And I'm like, "Oh my god, please don't talk to me about paint. Please don't talk to me about me booking a vacation in Florida. I can't think. I can't. And it's so unfair to the people we love because we're gone." >> Yeah. Now, why do I not feel like that anymore? Because I had very, very good therapy through the World Trade Center Health Program.
(2:02:40) Great therapy. I have a brilliant therapist and um we work on all these traumas until they can fade to the back of my mind and I don't have to think of them every day. So, I enjoy life completely. I love, I live, I play, I have friends, I enjoy every minute of every day. That's amazing. That's a gift.
(2:03:10) What can people learn from your work? >> A couple of things. I think you know like the books the title is what the dead know. And what I mean about that is a couple of things. One is they know how they really died. And I hope that they will tell me because they know the story of what happened at the end. And I try to read that story by examining the body and the scene.
(2:03:39) But the other thing they know is the moment of infinite regret. If you are dying and it takes a few minutes, you think, "Oh, this is it. Why didn't I play more? Why did I work all the time? Why didn't I play with my children? Why did I yell at them to clean their rooms all the time? What difference did it make? Instead of cleaning their rooms, we should have been outside throwing a ball.
(2:04:09) I worried so much about the little things. I paid too much attention to the wrong things. Nobody ever died and said, "Oh, I wish I worked more." No, they say, "Ah, I wish I had spent more time with people I love." So I try to remember that every day I have my moment of gratitude. Thank you for another day.
(2:04:33) Thank you to the universe, to the God, to the higher power, whatever you believe in. And thank you for the gift of today of life. Thank you for the ability to walk. I'm so happy that I can walk and see and hear and taste. What a gift. >> Yeah, it is. >> And I'm I'm at an age now where it counts, you know. So I hope people learn that that you're going to, you know, the death rate is now 100%.
(2:05:02) Every single person's going to die, you know. [laughter and gasps] So I just I believe in the gratitude of every day. >> We all should. >> Yeah. >> And what is one thing that people don't want to hear about death? >> Why don't they want to hear? Because it's they're afraid. Nobody wants to think about death. What is one thing that they don't want to know about death? They don't want to know.
(2:05:25) H I think everybody has a belief of maybe there's a heaven or a hell. I think that nobody wants to believe that there is nothing. That's scary to think that. I mean, many religions believe that this is one life. That's it. When you're gone, you're gone. that there is no chance to return to the universal light or the source of energy.
(2:05:57) There's no chance to come back. There's no chance for anything because it ends and that's it. That's that's sad to think about. It's scary. No, I want to keep going. But I believe that I will. So, I don't fear death. >> What is one advice that nobody should follow? [snorts] >> [laughter] >> Put yourself first.
(2:06:22) People say, "Oh, oh, take care of number one. Take care of yourself before anybody else." No, that's a that's an empty way of life. We are a global societ. This nation is this world is now global. If a child in Africa is hungry, it's going to affect me, my karma, [snorts] my life, my reincarnation, my happiness. I don't think that I should just look out for number one.
(2:06:53) I think I should look out for the people I love and the people I come across in the world who maybe I can help. Can I stop starvation in Africa? No. But can I feed a guy who's, you know, sitting on the sidewalk, doesn't have any money for food? I'm not going to hand him money because he might use buy cigarettes, [clears throat] but I'll go into the restaurant with him and say, "Here, give this guy a meal. I'm paying for it.
(2:07:18) " That's a little thing to do that has a big impact. >> See, >> that's beautiful. >> That's a beautiful thing to say. >> Yeah. So, but we all should look out for each other. And the last thing is what is the personal cost that you have paid to become a death investigator? There is a personal cost. There is the cost of having shut down from my emotions for so very long.
(2:07:45) The relationships I lost, the friends I lost because I wasn't there emotionally. There is some health issues from 9/11 of course, but they're manageable. Um, but probably the biggest cost is the loss of innocence. I know things that people should never know. I hope that no one ever has to see the things I've seen.
(2:08:18) So many times I wish I wish I had never seen that. So I hope everyone gets to live a life of beauty, love, creativity, and joy. If you want to be a death investigator, get ready cuz it's going to be rough. >> [laughter] >> Thank you so much for sharing your the stories. >> Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you.
(2:08:42) >> It was pleasure to have you here. You're a fierce women with amazing storytelling skills and a lot of courage which I believe rarely somebody has. I've never seen that. [music] >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Raj, nice to meet you. >> Pleased to meet you. >> Pleasure is mine. How are you doing? >> You are an excellent storyteller.
(2:09:03) >> Thank you. I really enjoy like the way you explain things. It's >> quite interesting. >> Well, you know, it's become my salvation because after spending [music] nearly 25 years in death, despair, and destruction, now I want to do things that are more creative, more more light. [music] >> And so, it's telling stories for me.
(2:09:29) You might wonder, why is a nice woman [music] like me doing such a horrible job? Because it's important to me and I feel [music] like if you can do it and nobody else can, then you should. And I can do it. For some reason, I am not frightened by dead people. I don't mind being around them. Not at all. They're very safe.
(2:09:54) It's living people who scare me, not dead people, you [laughter] know. >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guests you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(2:10:14) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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