How to Read People, Build Trust & Choose Better Friends | Adam Grant | FO576 Raj Shamani
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Title: How to Read People, Build Trust & Choose Better Friends | Adam Grant | FO576 Raj Shamani
Author Name: Raj Shamani
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Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
03:28 - Why We’re So Bad at Judging People’s Character
05:23 - Adam Grant Explains the Science of Human Connection
12:16 - How to Have Better Conversations and Build Deeper Connections
21:12 - Can You Create Chemistry? The Science of Building Connections
28:55 - Are Virtual Dates as Good as In-Person Dates?
32:32 - When Instant Chemistry Is a Red Flag
36:07 - What Your Role Models Reveal About Your Values
41:30 - Nature vs. Nurture: What Shapes Your Personality and Character?
50:41 - The Surprising Power of Reconnecting With Old Friends
1:01:02 - Why First Impressions Can Be Wrong
1:11:13 - What Makes Someone a True Friend?
1:12:34 - Can We Trust People We Don't Like?
1:23:18 - Can We Like People We Don't Trust?
1:30:44 - How to Handle Conflict Without Damaging Relationships
1:36:07 - The Ladder of Inference: How Assumptions Lead to Conflict
1:43:33 - Trust, Broken Promises & How Many Chances to Give Someone
1:48:16 - How to Make Friends, Overcome Loneliness & Build Community
1:56:41 - How Can an Introvert Become a Socially Magnetic Person?
2:01:08 - The Liking Gap: Why People Like You More Than You Think
2:05:34 - How to Vibe With People
2:06:59 - What's One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow?
2:08:19 - The Personal Cost of Becoming Adam Grant
2:12:08 - Feedback for Raj
2:14:33 - BTS
2:15:46 - Outro
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In today’s episode, we sit down with Adam Grant — Organizational Psychologist & Bestselling Author — the Wharton professor who has spent his career studying how to make work not suck, and author of the new book Vibe.
We discuss why the most selfish takers are often the best fakers, the three wavelengths every relationship runs on (allies, pals and companions), why half the people you call friends don’t see you as one, how dormant ties and “pebbling” revive lost connections, and the 19 words that make anyone open to hard feedback.
If you’ve ever felt surrounded by people and still alone, this conversation will change how you choose and keep your people.
Subscribe for more such conversations.
Follow Adam Grant here:
Instagram: / adamgrant
X: https://x.com/AdamMGrant
LinkedIn: / adammgrant
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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About Figuring Out
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Transcript:
(00:00) Half of the people you think of as friends, do not see you as a friend back. >> No way. >> This is something sociologists have found repeatedly. >> People are terrible at choosing right people. >> Why do you say so? >> I think one of the mistakes we make, whether you're looking for a romantic partner or teammate to collaborate with, is we pay too much attention to how people treat us.
(00:21) What you really want to know is how do they treat the person who's below them? How do they treat someone who can't help them back? >> Adam Grant, you have studied people for decades. You're trying to find out why they win, why do they lie, how are they being trusted. You've helped and advised like the US Army, Google, and bunch of other companies in the world.
(00:41) Tell me top three questions which are great to start building a vibe and connection. >> I would say number one, I probably want to start with tell me about a favorite memory. A second question that I love is if you could go back to one point in your life, what would it be? And then a third favorite is tell me about something you regret that you wish you could redo.
(01:00) The research show if people just spend seven minutes in deep talk, that is enough to accelerate their bond. >> And what would be the worst question? >> Number one would be what do you think of the current political situation? Second risky question is to ask people about their religious beliefs. And then I think the third category of questions that I would say avoid is >> There's something called instinct.
(01:20) You instinctively know that this person is not right for you. Sometimes you're right about it, but sometimes you're wrong about it. So how to know when to trust my instinct and when to not trust my instinct? >> I think the first thing to know though is that some of our favorite people in our lives, most reliable companions and allies, are the people we started out disliking.
(01:40) >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in psychology. >> How can you find out that somebody is just manipulating you and not actually vibing and connecting with you? >> I would ask them who their role models are. Who do you admire? And oftentimes people reveal their values through who they look up to. >> How to vibe with people? Give your top three rules.
(01:59) >> I have three principles for vibing with other people. Number one, >> Let's say somebody's going out on a first date. What should they do in the first 30 minutes to build a certain vibe? >> From reading the research on first dates, my biggest surprise from a paper that came out earlier this year, what they show is that >> I have a small favor to ask you.
(02:22) I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations. And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify, where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well.
(02:41) To perform at your best, your body and mind need to be at their best. And a big part of that comes down to what you eat every single day. The food you choose either fuels you or slows you down. That's why your food choices matter so much. And that's where Urban Platter comes in. They make better-for-you products that deliver on both taste and quality.
(03:05) So, you never have to pick between the two. Every ingredient is thoughtfully sourced, giving you cleaner alternative for your everyday meals. They make sure you eat mindfully and make better choices that fit into your life with no restrictive dieting. To know more about Urban Platter, check the link in the description below. >> What's really fascinating to me is you have studied people for decades.
(03:35) You've trying to find find out why they win, why they not win, why do they lie, how are they being trusted. And you've helped and advised like the US Army, Navy, Google, and bunch of other companies in the world. Then you teach at the top like you teach top 1% students in the world. And after doing all of this, you said something which is very tricky.
(04:02) And to me that is >> [laughter] >> That was I always thought I'm good at it, but you actually say that after reading and doing all these research, you found out that people are terrible at choosing right people. And why do you say so? >> Ah, there are so many reasons. This is true whether you're looking for a romantic partner, a roommate, or a teammate to collaborate with.
(04:26) I think one of the mistakes we make is we pay too much attention to how people treat us, and we don't think about how they treat everyone else. And if you're if you're in a position of power influence, I see this all the time with CEOs, with founders, with with people in any position of leadership. They don't realize that the people below them are motivated to put their best foot forward.
(04:49) And so the the most selfish takers are the best fakers when they're dealing with powerful people. And that's that's how they get ahead. And what that means is the more power and status you gain, the more compromised your judgment of other people's character is. What you really want to know is how do they treat the person who's below them, or the person who's their peer, not how do they treat the person up, right? We can we can get fooled a lot by takers who are great fakers who kiss up and kick down. I think the real measure of of
(05:18) somebody's character is how do they treat someone who can't help them back. >> Let's go deep into it. Let's find out so many ideas around this thing because what you said essentially makes a lot of sense, but still we fall into this trap of actually judging people wrong, right? Before we do that, if someone's watching you for the first time, how would you explain what you do? >> [laughter] >> Who you are, what do you do? Like they give them 1 minute pitch.
(05:45) Like I'm a big fan of Adam Grant. >> [laughter] >> I want to hear it from you. >> That's an honor. I'm an organizational psychologist. Uh that means I spend a lot of my career studying how to make work not suck. And I've expanded my focus over time. I'm interested in how we can live more meaningful, more creative, more connected lives.
(06:05) And I try to use social science to help people do that. So, I run randomized controlled experiments, longitudinal studies. I do a lot of synthesizing of data, but I spend a good amount of my time inside of organizations trying to figure out how we can make cultures better, how we can help teams vibe, and ultimately how we can bring bring out the best in everyone.
(06:26) >> But but when you say how can we make teams vibe? Right? Or like how do we make people vibe? That's something interesting to me. Tell me what's happening when you say like when two people click, the moment they meet each other and that there's some spark, there's some click, they vibe with each other.
(06:44) What do you mean by that? What is essentially happening? >> Well, I think of a vibe as the quality of a connection between two people. And it's more than a feeling. Neuroscientists have actually shown that when you have that sense that you're really vibing, your brain waves are synchronizing >> Okay. >> and your heartbeats are synchronizing, too.
(07:03) So, you can trace it in the body, not just experience it in the mind. And I think the telltale signs that you're vibing are time just disappears, right? It It flies. You feel like it's only been a few minutes and hours have passed. Uh your ideas are soaring, your energy is rising, and you kind of you walk away from the interaction feeling like, "Wow, I really miss that person.
(07:24) " >> But what's happening? Like psychologically, what's going on inside my brain? Why do I feel like time's flying? Why do I feel like I want to spend more time with them? Why is Why do I feel synced? Is there some science which is going inside me? >> Well, I think so. I think in in the middle of a vibe, you're probably in a flow state where you have that sense of total absorption, you're not necessarily worried about how you look, you're not paying a lot of attention to what does this person think of me, do they like
(07:50) me, right? You're just absorbed in the moment. And I think that happens when we're on the same wavelength with other people. So, one of the things Raj and I had a lot of fun with while I was researching vibe is I was interested in what does it what does it actually look like to to get to that point where you connect with somebody else.
(08:08) And I found there are actually three different wavelengths around the world that people tend to click on. I've come to call them ally, pal, and companion. So, you I I'm actually really curious if you think about people in your life this way. >> Okay. >> But for me, what's really powerful about this is there there are three paths to a meaningful vibe.
(08:28) So, an ally is somebody who shares your goals. You're on a mission together. >> Okay. >> A pal is somebody who shares your interests. You're having fun together. And a companion is somebody who shares your values. You care deeply about each other. And depending on which which you're trying to build, right? There are very different ways to connect.
(08:45) But we run into problems and I think actually our global loneliness crisis is happening in part because people are on different wavelengths. So, I'm trying to be allies with you, but you just want to be pals with me. And that's a great recipe over time for failing to vibe, but also for disappointment, for expectations being shattered, and and ultimately for a sense of betrayal that you were not the person I wanted you to be, and we didn't even realize that we just had different ideas of what this relationship was all about.
(09:12) >> But how do we find out that you and I we have same ideas? >> Well, one possibility is we could talk about it directly, and I could say, "Hey Raj, I would I would love to be allies with you." And you could say, "No, no, actually not >> [laughter] >> not interested." But I think that we we could also be a little bit more subtle about it.
(09:29) So, I think that the the kinds of conversations we have are different based on our expectations. If I'm trying to be your ally, I'm going to be asking you about what your aspirations are. What are you trying to accomplish this year? What's your biggest challenge? What roadblocks are you running into because I want to figure out how we can succeed together or how I can help you succeed.
(09:50) If I want to be pals, I'm probably asking you about your favorite books, movies, TV shows, songs, right? I'm I'm trying to find something we both enjoy together or maybe a common hobby. I'd start asking you about whether you play cricket or whether you're into padel. And if I wanted to be companions with you, I'm probably showing you a lot more emotional vulnerability.
(10:11) I'm talking about one of my big regrets. I'm opening up to you about the the breakup that I was really struggling with professionally or personally. And if you pay attention to what topics people gravitate toward, right? You can start to to read, "Hey, that person is is trying to connect with me on on the companion wavelength.
(10:30) Okay, do I want that?" >> But is it Like some people might suck at it, right? >> [laughter] >> Sure. >> Yeah, like so So, let's say if I'm talking to someone and I want that person to be my pal, but then I'm just asking them questions which is giving them a hint of that I want to be their ally. Like how do I How do I correct that in the first meeting? >> Yeah, I think in the in the first meeting, what I would do is I would probably start by saying, "Let's Let's just get to know each other a little bit better.
(10:58) Um I'm like I would love to have more fun in my life. What do you do for fun?" I think, you know, a lot of people start and this is one of the things that drives me crazy about America is people define themselves by their work. So, the first question when you meet somebody here is, "What do you do?" And that immediately shuts down a conversation.
(11:17) You ask me what I do and I tell you I'm a psychologist and you might be trading seats on a bus or a train cuz >> [laughter] >> you don't you don't want me in your head. And you might have some image of lying on a couch and I'm not that kind of psychologist, right? But creates a lot of distance between people to start with that conversation about, "Well, what do you do? What I like to ask people instead is what do you love to do? And that's when they open up about their passions and the things that that light them up and that's the beginning of a
(11:42) great pal conversation. >> Do you start your conversation with a stranger with what do you love doing? >> I do now. I didn't used to. But there have been a whole series of experiments showing that we can actually skip the small talk and accelerate our vibe by going right to deep talk. Where I could just ask you, hey, what do you love to do? And sometimes I give a little bit of a preamble for that.
(12:02) I'll say, you know what? I'm just I'm tired of talking to people about the weather. I find the weather endlessly boring. So I would actually love to know something that you care about. Like do you have a new hobby? Do you have something you enjoy doing? Tell me about it. >> Interesting. And Okay, tell tell me the like break it down for me, okay? Tell me top three questions which are great to start in building a vibe and connection and top three questions which are a recipe for a disaster.
(12:29) The worst way to start a conversation with somebody. >> Wow. >> I love like like what do you love to do? It's such a simple question and but a lot of people won't be able to answer because they immediately be like what do I tell? Because they're so occupied in their head that their identity is their work. >> Yeah, I think that's true and a lot of people haven't spent enough time thinking about what they love to do or they're still searching for a passion.
(12:51) So if I were looking for three favorite questions beyond that, I would say Oh, this is this is a fun exercise. I've a I've a long list of favorites that have been tested in experiments with with strangers trying to bond. So my go-to's, I think if I were choosing a top three, I would say number one I probably want to start with some version of tell me about a favorite memory.
(13:14) And what's that's what's I think what's great about the the favorite memory question is you're anchoring people in an in experience they've had. So they don't have to start cycling through like what do I enjoy? What's my hobby? What's my interest? They can just think through, yeah, what's a moment that made me smile or made me laugh or that I think back to often.
(13:33) >> True. >> A A second question that I love is, if you could go back to one point in your life, what would it be? And now you're starting to get into people's experiences around their values. Right? What is something that they really treasure? And would love to have more of in their life. And then a third favorite is, tell me about something you regret that you wish you could redo.
(13:56) And I think the personal vulnerability that that requires seems to be from the research in the sweet spot of it brings out something real about you, but it's not too personal. It's not intrusive >> [clears throat] >> where people say, nope, don't want to talk about that. Let me out of here. >> Yeah, and what would be the worst questions? >> Worst questions.
(14:16) >> They like don't Nobody should start a conversation with these questions. >> I mean, there there's a whole list of, you know, overly intrusive questions that I don't I don't think most people are likely to to run the risk of, but in terms of questions I see regularly that I think are a mistake. I think number one would be, what do you think of the current political situation? Because either it's going to divide people or you're going to end up finding somebody who's also outraged.
(14:43) >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And there may not be a lot you can do about that situation. So, I would not lead with politics. >> Yeah. >> I think a second risky question is to ask people about their religious beliefs because people often feel very strongly about those and again it can divide rather than unite too quickly.
(15:00) And then I think the third category of questions that I would say avoid are just really mundane questions that people are not excited to talk about. I think that anything that's on the surface of a person that, you know, that doesn't define them seems like a little bit of a waste of time. And so I think a common question that I see there that I would I would love to see everyone just cancel from their repertoire is, so what's on your calendar today? Or tell me about your schedule.
(15:26) Like the last thing I want to do is walk you through the boring details of my day. Very few people, even people who have exciting lives, very few moments in their day are actually that interesting to talk about. And so I want to move to the highlights as opposed to the minutia. >> Do you think tell me about yourself is a good question? >> I don't think it's a horrible question.
(15:47) I think it's one that job interviewers sometimes use highly effectively because they want to give you a blank slate and see where you take that. I think for most people, if you're trying to vibe, it's a little too broad. Tell me about yourself. Well, there are a lot of dimensions to me. I don't know where to begin.
(16:02) >> True. >> And so I would rather put some boundaries around that and say, tell me about your personality, or tell me about your hobbies, or even tell me about the dream career that you didn't pursue. >> And why would you do that? Like why would you want to go straight to the deep question because all the top three questions that you told me, they're probably much deeper than what people usually talk about.
(16:29) Why? Is there a specific science behind it? >> Yeah, there is. So when you go to deep talk, a few things tend to happen. One is that you are actually signaling to the other person that you trust them. When you open up, right? When I tell you, hey, you know what? I regret that I didn't study abroad in college. I think that was a mistake.
(16:45) I think it kept me too much in my comfort zone. I was in tunnel vision. I had goals and I was kind of locked into them. And I I think that that was a huge miss for me and I'm trying to make up for that by spending more time traveling in parts of the world that I don't know well. I'm not putting myself out there in a way that you could use that information against me or that I might list one of my biggest regrets in life is I shouldn't have told Raj about my study abroad regrets from college.
(17:12) But I am showing you that I trust you enough to tell you something that still bothers me. That's a decision I made 25 years ago. And that sends a clear message to you that I believe you're somebody worth opening up to. And so that signals, "Hey, I want to bond with you." Second thing that happens is when I go to deep talk, typically you will reciprocate.
(17:33) Right? It's It's actually a violation of social norms. It would be rude to just shut down and put up a wall. And so that then begins the cycle of trust building between us and we can start earning each other's trust. And then the third reason I want to go to deep talk is it's energizing. It's more fun to talk about things that are that are either emotionally evocative or that are personally meaningful.
(17:54) And then we can begin either really getting to know each other or riffing on something that we've we've never talked about before. And I think that a lot of people hear deep talk and they think, "Well, you know, it's it's got to be something that's really profound." No. Like my my oldest daughter has sparked some fantastic conversations with people by asking them, "Do you believe aliens are out there?" or not and why? And people, you know, they just they start having a conversation that they've they've not had before or they've never
(18:23) had that version of this conversation before and they come away thinking, "Wow, I love the questions that I got asked and I want to have more conversations with that person." >> What are you saying that let's say if let's say you and I go to a networking event and we just you ended up making me meet some one of your friend.
(18:41) And the first thing or like the first second or third thing I end up asking them is like, "Hey, do you believe in aliens?" or like, "Tell me about your favorite memory." Is that what you're suggesting? >> It is. Yeah, and I know it sounds a little bit awkward. >> Yeah. >> But a little bit of awkwardness can go a long way toward building a stronger relationship.
(18:57) And the choice that you make to put yourself out there, the worst case scenario is it doesn't land and you failed the vibe. But the alternative of saying, "Well, what do you do? And how's the weather?" That probably wasn't going to work anyway. And so I think the risk is relatively low and the potential reward is high. And the research shows, if you look at the randomized controlled experiments, if people just spend 7 minutes in deep talk, that is enough to accelerate their bond, and it's especially effective for introverts.
(19:25) >> Mhm. And so I go out to a stranger and ask them a deep question even before I ask them, "What do you do?" >> You could. >> But is that what you're suggesting to build a better vibe? >> It's an option. You could also share something about yourself personally and say, "Hey, I'm trying to have more meaningful conversations with the people I meet.
(19:44) " Uh and I wanted to share something with you and then pick one of your topics. Uh and you know, I think this is a lot of trial and error, right? I think that human beings are complicated and we're I think what I'm what I'm trying to what I'm trying to prevent is I I'm thinking about I have a lot of um I I have a lot of students who feel FOMO. Right? The fear of missing out.
(20:09) And there's something worse than FOMO. I call it ROMO. It's the regret of having missed out. FOMO can actually be useful. When you have the fear that you're going to miss something, you start to then take action, right? You're worried that you're going to miss out on meaningful connections, so you go to the party that you were going to go stay home during, or you reach out to the person that you were hesitant to reconnect with.
(20:33) When you feel ROMO, you feel like you missed your window. >> Yeah. >> It's too late. And a lot of people look back on their earlier experiences when you know, when I talk with with leaders, when I talk with friends who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, they look back and they say, "I wish I had been bolder socially.
(20:49) I wish I had put myself out there a little bit more. I wish I had shown the curiosity about other people that I feel, but was kind of blocked by the social scripts and norms that we follow, uh thinking, 'No, you can't bring that up. You have to like you have to dip your toe in the shallow end. You can't dive right into the deep end.
(21:08) ' And what did I have to lose, really? Not as much as I thought. >> Interesting. So let's say I'm a I'm a bad I have this regret, for example, okay? And there are a lot of people who will have this regret, right? And I'm a I'm a bad conversationalist. I won't be able to go out and talk to people and then come back home and then regret that, oh I missed my window, right? And a lot of people would do that.
(21:33) And every time I go talk to somebody or at least few times, I would have messed it up. And because of that, I don't want to go talk to other people. So big So, let's say if I go to someone today and I mess it up in the first 5-10 minutes and there's no chemistry, there's no spark, right? >> Yeah. >> Can I engineer chemistry? >> [laughter] >> If you think about it that scientifically, you might be shooting yourself in the foot.
(22:00) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But are there steps you could take to increase the probability of chemistry? Sure. We can all create conditions that either set a vibe or kill a vibe. >> Okay. >> And I think if you struggle at clicking with people in conversations, the first thing to do is to say, look, not all connections are built face-to-face.
(22:19) A lot of them are created side-by-side, where you and I are doing a common activity together. And that that's actually where a lot of both pal and ally bonds are formed. So, I would think about what are the activities that you could do together. Um I think, you know, watching a a show or a movie that you then talk about afterward is low-hanging fruit for some people.
(22:38) But I would prefer something a little more active. Because what we know from decades of research is emotional intensity accelerates connection. When our hearts are racing together and beating together, that's when we feel like we have a meaningful bond. And so I love I love uh an experiment that was done recently where people are randomly assigned to go to a haunted house together.
(22:58) >> Okay. >> And afterwards, strangers feel closer. Uh and it's not just the jump scare. It's what what happens is they only get closer if they actually debrief the experience afterward. So, they both freak out and then they talk about it and they laugh [clears throat] about it together and they feel like they shared a unique experience together.
(23:18) A lot of people will look at that and say, "Well, we need adversity in order to bond." No, you do not have to go through a horrible hazing ritual like a college fraternity or a sorority would do to bring people closer together. It is not shared suffe- No, let me try that again.
(23:35) It's not shared suffering that brings people closer. It's not adversity, it's intensity. It's the strong emotions that we feel in a unique experience together that we feel changes each of us and also changes our dynamic that ultimately connects us, which is one of the reasons why it's so good to take on physical challenges together.
(23:54) Um, go to a bike ride together that's going to be tough. Go run a race. Um, and what you will find together is sweating together is often social grease. >> Give me an Give me examples of intense intense experiences that'll be great experiences to do with allies to form and with pals and with companions. >> Oh, this is good. Okay, this is fun.
(24:17) So, I think with allies, what I would say is if you're trying to strengthen your ally connection with someone, you want to take on a hard problem or puzzle together. >> Okay. >> It could be a literal puzzle. It could be a jigsaw puzzle or a really difficult LEGO project. >> Okay. >> Uh, but that experience of having to problem solve together is going to it's going to challenge you to use different skills, to rely on each other.
(24:39) Um, maybe you take on, if you're a car person, you say, "Okay, we're going to rebuild a car together or we're going to soup up the engine of a car together." Uh, I think that's that's a great example of something you could do with a potential ally. You could do a quilting or a knitting or a sewing project.
(24:55) Basically, I I the best the best ally bonds come from shared projects. I think if you're trying to be pals, what you want to do is peak fun. >> Mhm. >> I would say go to a comedy show together. I would say watch a hilarious movie. >> Okay. >> I'd say find a favorite sport. Or uh a fi- I I would say go do karaoke together.
(25:15) That is maximum pal fun. >> Yeah. >> And then that could open the door also to companionship [clears throat] because most people are terrible at karaoke. And so the the courage they have to put themselves out there, then you end up kind of laughing at yourselves. But I think there are lots of different ways to create the vulnerability together that allows for companionship.
(25:35) I think certainly um a lot of the questions that we talked about before are relevant. Uh I'll add a few others that are are helpful for if you want to build companionship. I think going into a dynamic where you're with each other's families is a great place to start because >> From the beginning. >> Um I I wouldn't do that maybe on your first meeting.
(25:53) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But you know, even if you've just if you met a college roommate for example, or if you have a new colleague at work, when they meet your sibling, you're going to get to real vulnerability much faster than if you only hang out with, you know, your college buddies or your um you know, your basically your co-workers in the office because your siblings bring out a side of you that's a little bit more authentic, it's a little more human, it might be a little bit less polished.
(26:23) And you know, that that gives you a sense of the real you. I think you know, over time you visit their hometown, you get to hear about their upbringing, and that can be a real source of companionship. But I think also just just confiding in each other, right? Hey, here's something I'm grappling with personally.
(26:43) Um I'll tell you something that I found really helpful to to talk with people about when when I want to show that I'm willing to be their companion. In high school, one of the the things I discovered was I became the friend that people called when they weren't sure who to call. And the reason I think that happened was because I if if you tell me like I don't I don't want you to solve my problem.
(27:06) I don't want you to fix this. I just need somebody to listen. All of a sudden I become really patient and non-judgmental. >> Mhm. >> And I really enjoy being that person. And so if you know, if if you're having an emotional challenge, please call me. I will not judge you. I will be here to listen to you.
(27:22) That's a conversation I found really helpful to have with people as I'm getting to know them. I've also found that I'm really impatient most of the time and that's not a good message for me to communicate except with a very small number of people in my life. And I think what that signals Raj is something I've seen in in our data that we've collected.
(27:39) People have fewer companions on average than they do allies or pals. >> Mhm. >> But we need a mix of all of those in our lives and something that happens to a lot of us is we end up with one best friend or one romantic partner who basically covers all those bases. So you might have a partner or a buddy who is your best ally, your best pal, and your best companion.
(27:59) And that will bring you closer, but it's also bad for your well-being. >> Mhm. Why is it bad for well-being? >> It's bad for your well-being because you end up putting all your eggs in one basket. And it means that you end up over-relying on one person for everything. They're not always available.
(28:15) They are not always the best at fulfilling each of those roles. I have I have a good friend from college who is an amazing pal. We always have fun together. When I told him that my wife was sick, he said I'm really sorry to hear that and never mentioned it again. And at first I was I was kind of heartbroken. What like why is this guy such a bad friend? And then I realized no, he's not a bad friend.
(28:41) I had him in the companion bucket in my head, but he's a terrible companion for me and he's a a good pal. And I just need to accept and expect that. And now I go to different people when I'm searching for companionship and they are much better suited to provide it. >> Then you talk about companionship, right? Lot of people are horrible at building a connection with somebody who they probably want to date or who they want to build a romantic relationship with and they end up making them pals.
(29:09) >> Yeah. >> Right? Because they don't know how to actually take things forward. So, let let's try to make it simpler for people. Let's say if somebody's going out on a first date, what should they do in the first 30 minutes to build a certain vibe which actually engineers a companion sort of vibe? >> From reading the research on first dates, my biggest surprise from a paper that came out earlier this year, this is this is Finkel and Eastwick and colleagues.
(29:37) What they show is that we actually are as likely to have a good vibe on a Zoom date virtually as we are in person. >> Really? >> Shocking, right? >> How? >> There's a lot of evidence that on Zoom, if you spend a lot of time on it, you don't burn out. Instead, you experience boreout. Which is you're not overstimulated to the point of exhaustion, you're understimulated and you just start to zone out.
(30:03) So, how do you square that with the fact that people actually have a good time on virtual dates? Well, you have to control for how much time they spend because on average, an in-person date will last about twice as long as a virtual date because it's just more energizing. But if you account for the time spent, it turns out that people are just as attracted to each other on virtual dates on average.
(30:22) They're just as likely to feel that they have a vibe and they're just as likely to want to go on a second date afterward. And I think the main reason for that is our expectations are low. We think Zoom is going to be awful and when somebody shows up and we're like, "Wow, I'm actually kind of into that person and I'd love to spend more time with them." We're pleasantly surprised.
(30:40) And so, I I actually say my first recommendation for a first date is don't be afraid to have the virtual conversation. It can save you the awkwardness of the longer bad date in person and also the time you spent getting there. And if you do the initial, you know, 30 minutes and you like them over Zoom, that's then actually momentum for a better in-person second date.
(31:00) And I think that's a great place to start. >> Yeah. That's That's a pretty smart I But I would always think it sounds smart. It It sounds like it'll save a lot of time for a lot of people, but it I would think the other ways, like in real life it would be much more better. Like it'll be much better to actually build a relationship or build a vibe.
(31:21) Like online it'll be horrible. >> I think that we have You have to remember something that that the blogger Tim Urban wrote on Wait, But Why? He said happiness equals reality minus expectations. >> Say that again. Happiness >> Happiness equals reality minus expectations. >> Okay. >> I think in that one equation Tim captured about half a century of social science research.
(31:49) Because what we know from extensive evidence is you don't judge your situation relative to Sorry, let me say that again. What What we know from extensive evidence is we don't judge our circumstances objectively. We compare them to what we wanted. >> Mhm. >> And I'm not saying that the recipe for happiness is having low expectations.
(32:11) What I am saying is in situations where you have low expectations, you can find yourself walking away saying, "Wow, that went better than I thought." And that can be a catalyst for better interactions and better experiences. And so, when your expectations are low, you might as well give it a shot and see how it goes.
(32:32) >> True. Again, sometimes when you vibe with people, okay, in the beginning, when you you do all of these things, you're trying to solve a problem, a puzzle, going to comedy shows, doing all the things that we just spoke about, right? The intensity is high. And you feel an instant vibe, right? Can an instant vibe also be a warning sign? >> Oh, that's interesting.
(32:55) A warning sign of what? >> Like, maybe it's it's just flattery. Maybe it's just >> Mhm. >> uh status [clears throat] and projection. Maybe the other person wants something. It's not really true. >> Oh. Yes. I think that there is the there actually is evidence to point to that possibility. So, psychologists have studied what they call superficial charm, >> Mhm.
(33:17) >> which is kind of the surface charisma that people show, >> Yeah. >> that masks what might be more self-centered values or more Machiavellian intentions. And in fact, psychologists uh have studied what they call the dark triad, which is narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. And if somebody is superficially charming and you have extraordinary chemistry with them, it's possible that you have a narcissist, a psychopath, or a Machiavellian who's manipulating you to either feed their own ego or try to get something from
(33:50) you. But I don't think it's automatically a red flag. Some people are just highly socially skilled or they just have contagious energy. And sometimes we just click with other people because we are in sync and we're on a common wavelength. And so, I wouldn't immediately look at chemistry as a warning sign.
(34:07) What I would say is chemistry is not a precursor for closeness. And just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you're Sorry, let me say that again. Just because you like someone does not mean that they care about you. And just because you like someone does not mean you are going to like working with them. Which is a message to every pair of friends who has ever started a company together.
(34:30) >> [laughter] >> We'll go deep on both of these things. I love what you just said. But I want to ask on that point that you said it's possible that there are going to be superficial charmers and you'll meet them. So, how can you find out that somebody is just manipulating you and not actually vibing and connecting with you? >> Oh, that's such an important question.
(34:49) So, I think we foreshadowed the first one at the beginning of our conversation, which is if you're afraid that you might have a selfish taker who's a really good faker, what you want to do is you want to look at how they treat people that they're not trying to get something from. >> Mhm. >> And if they if they have a better reputation and better relationships with people who are more influential than they are than their peers and subordinates, that is a red flag.
(35:15) That's the first thing I would do. Second thing I might do is I would ask them who their role models are. Who do you admire? And often times people reveal their values through who they look up to. So, if the list of people that they come back with is a bunch of people who are obsessed with only money and power and fame, that's a signal that they themselves have very self-serving values.
(35:40) If they talk about people that they look up to because they're generous, they're curious, they're creative, they're wise, they're humble, you're now seeing that they're more extrinsically or excuse me, you're now seeing that they're more intrinsically motivated rather than extrinsically motivated. You're seeing that they might be more concerned about others as opposed to just out for themselves.
(36:00) I I think you can learn a lot about people from looking at their mo- their role models and that's that's probably a second favorite step. >> But don't [snorts] you think society has conditioned us to look for role models who are highly ambitious and successful and most of them and majority of times they are these power-hungry or like super obsessed people who are out there.
(36:21) Those are the names that come in your head for the first time. >> They might be top of mind, but anybody who takes the time to think about who's my role model is thinking not just about what's the result that I want, but also what kind of person do I want to be. So, when I teach my first class at Wharton, um I have my new students come in and the first question I ask them to answer as a whole group is who is your biggest role model as a leader? Who is the one leader alive or dead that you admire most? And the range in the room is striking.
(36:52) I have heard all the way from Elon Musk to Jacinda Ardern to Martin Luther King Jr. to Mahatma Gandhi and actually a lot of the answers are athletes and sports coaches. And I think, you know, then the question is, well, what do you admire about them? And I want to know, do you admire the, you know, the basically the rewards they've gotten or do you admire the character they've demonstrated? And you can start to see that, right? You can push people on this.
(37:25) You can say, look, you know, there are lots of successful people in the world. Tell me the ones that you would most like to emulate. Who's path would you most love to follow? And that might get a different kind of answer than just the usual suspects of, you know, famous, rich, powerful people. >> Mhm. Who is your role model? >> So, I actually I have a hard time answering this question because I have discovered over time that having met a lot of my role models, they didn't live up to the expectations, right? People say never meet your heroes.
(37:53) >> Yeah. >> I don't think that's true. Some of them have exceeded my expectations, but what I've tried to do is I've tried to get more nuanced and say I have role models for particular virtues. So, it's pretty unlikely, Raj, that there's one person who exemplifies everything I care about. My values include generosity, integrity, excellence, humility, curiosity.
(38:13) One person who's a paragon of all of those probably doesn't exist. I can tell you who my role models are for particular virtues though, if you ask. >> Choose any. Choose any one virtue, one role model, and why. >> Okay, so I'm going to say one one role model I have is Daryl Davis. Daryl Davis is a role model for me of extraordinary generosity and curiosity.
(38:41) I wrote about him in Think Again. He is a jazz musician who has single-handedly talked more than 200 white supremacists out of the Ku Klux Klan, a hate group. And as a black man, he's put himself at extraordinary personal risk to even have these conversations to begin with, and it it should not be his responsibility to do that. But he he ended up meeting this, you know, this really hateful white supremacist at a club that that he was playing jazz at, and he didn't know that the guy was a member of the KKK.
(39:15) And then the guy revealed it to him. He'd never had a conversation with a black man before. And Daryl just asked him this question that he'd been wondering about since he first discovered prejudice when when he was about 10 years old. He said, "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" And the guy got very quiet, and he couldn't answer the question.
(39:35) And that started a a bit of a a friendship, and over a series of months the guy started to rethink his hateful beliefs and ultimately abandoned the Ku Klux Klan, and uh Daryl realized he was onto something. And the patience that he has, the genuine interest in understanding somebody else's views and motivations, I I just think is admirable, and I'd love to see more of that in the world.
(40:00) So, Daryl is is one of my role models for multiple virtues. >> Did that shift something in you? Did you start following that? >> It did. It I I think that, you know, I I had a student once call me a logic bully. >> Okay. >> And my wife had to explain to me that that was not a compliment. >> [laughter] >> What do you I was honestly confused when when Alison explained to me.
(40:23) She's like, "People do not enjoy being hammered with data and facts until they admit how stupid their old views were." I'm like, "Yeah, I've been doing that my whole life. I have been like a prosecuting attorney. If I think you're wrong, I believe it's my professional responsibility and my moral responsibility to correct you.
(40:40) " And that never goes well, right? When I go into prosecutor mode, the other person brings their best defense attorney to court. And then nobody learns anything. And meeting Daryl really has changed the way that that I interact with other people. If I think you're wrong, following his approach and the science of motivational interviewing, I'm less likely now to tell you, "You know, actually, like there's a whole body of evidence that says your beliefs are false and let me enlighten you about that.
(41:06) " I am much more likely to say, "Raj, it's so interesting that you think that. Tell me what evidence would change your mind." >> Mhm. >> That question has been a game-changer for me because when I ask you, "Tell me what evidence would change your mind?" I'm asking you to make two commitments. The first commitment is that there is something that would change your mind.
(41:24) And secondly, you're willing to have this debate in the realm of data. >> Yeah. Interesting. Because we are, let's say, talking about human nature, tell me one thing you were wrong about human nature. >> Oh, I mean, there's like this is my entire education as a psychologist was having to rethink many of my assumptions about human nature.
(41:46) I think one of the biggest ones that I had was I thought that personality was shaped mostly by nurture. By our parents and by our life experiences. And that has just been falsified empirically. Uh I think we dramatically underestimate the effects of nature on our personality. And so I'm an introvert. >> Mhm. >> I I I'm pretty shy.
(42:09) And I thought that that was because of my upbringing. No, it turns out that on average over half of the variance in introversion extraversion is heritable genetically. Um, it's in my biology. You can actually see it in an fMRI scan of my brain. And so, that that really overturned a lot of my thinking because I thought that like the the key to I I chose a career where like if I had At first I was teaching classes, then I was giving TED Talks. I'm doing podcasts.
(42:40) I have to put myself out there a lot. >> Yeah. >> That does not seem like the kind of thing that an introvert could get comfortable doing. And so, I thought intuitively that I had to become more extroverted. Knowing that biologically I have a predisposition to toward introversion, what I know is that personality is my tendency.
(42:58) It is not my destiny. And I can choose to engage in like in this conversation more outgoing behaviors than would be my first instinct. But if I overdo that, I'm going to burn myself out and exhaust myself. And so, I haven't tried to change my personality. I've tried to adapt my personality and say, "I'm going to pick particular weeks a year where I'm on stage.
(43:20) And I'm also going to have weeks where I do not engage with other people outside my family very much." Um, even my teaching schedule is is choreographed so that I do all my teaching in the fall. And then I have January through July to do a lot of thinking, research, data analysis, reading, and writing because I know in my teaching semester I'm just not I'm not on to do the same quality of thinking that I would when I have more freedom.
(43:48) And that that was a, you know, it just turned my whole thinking about how to manage my personality upside down. >> But what made you believe that you're naturally born as, let's say, an introvert and no one can not change that? >> I don't think that it can't change it, but I think we change relative to our own baseline.
(44:06) So, I think the most persuasive data for me were their studies of monozygotic twins. So, these are twins who are identical These are identical twins. They share 100% of their DNA. But, they're separated at birth and raised in different families in different cities, which is terrible for them, but helpful for science. No, it's just sad, actually.
(44:27) All joking aside, it's it's terrible that that ever happens. But, what it does allow psychologists to do is to then look at their adult personalities. And if you look at those twins who were raised in completely different environments, in different homes, they share on average about 50 to 60% of their personality traits.
(44:46) Which is a tremendous amount of overlap. >> Yeah. >> And you know, you you there are some cases that have come out in the data like two two twins who were separated at birth, both became firefighters, both wear a rubber band on their left wrist, and both smash uh a a can of soda on their forehead as a little party trick.
(45:07) What are the odds that they would all They they They were doing the same thing >> Exactly. In two different place, and they didn't even know each other. >> They didn't even know each other, and they were remarkably alike. And so, what that what that tells me is we have an instinct for how to think, feel, and act.
(45:26) But, it's up to us whether we want to override that instinct or not. And I think that this is you know, this is why I say personality is not your destiny, it's just a tendency. And I think what what a lot of people do is they miss they kind of confuse personality and values, and they are not the same. I think your personality is how you show up on a typical day.
(45:46) Your values are how you show up on a hard day. Right? So, when I think about my values, it is easy to be kind and wise and curious when things are going great. The real test of my character and of everyone's character, I think, is how do you treat people when the deck is stacked against you. >> Mhm. >> And I think that for a lot of us, we actually have to override our personality to say, "Look, I didn't choose to be wired this way.
(46:12) I did pick my values. I selected guiding principles that are really important to me, and that's how I want to operate." >> This is I love this. I love that just a random question helped me discover a new thing about just nurture and nature. I would have never thought of this. I don't know why. But it makes so much sense.
(46:31) Tell me Tell me something more about this. Okay, let's say if I have to ask flip this question and ask him tell me something about human nature you wish you didn't know. >> [laughter] >> I mean, here here's a really simple one. I I wish I didn't know that a surprising number of people in a typical population have had a homicidal thought.
(46:57) This is research by a a very provocative and sometimes controversial psychologist, David Buss, where he basically argues that, you know, we we evolved to, you know, if necessary, be ready to kill. And so, when somebody really pushes your buttons, uh you could have a strong aggressive instinct. That's not me.
(47:20) I have never had a homicidal thought. I I probably get actually angry once a decade or so. Um it's just it's not it's not in my constitution, and I don't like I don't like interacting with people thinking there's a possibility that in different circumstances this person might have gotten into such a rage that they could want to do someone severe bodily harm.
(47:43) I I would prefer not to know that. >> Yeah, nobody would like to know that. But is that true? Like is that like proven? >> I mean, it's >> lot of people just like inherently they have these thoughts? >> I think, you know, it's it's hard to really know what anybody thinks and feels, right? But by the best the excuse me, the best methods that we have to to survey and interview people, um I think many psychologists believe it's true, but I I think I can give you a better one uh that I I wish I didn't know.
(48:12) Um Uh here's here's one that actually like it's not so depressing and it'll probably serve your audience better. So, I'm I'm rethinking in real time. Scratch that. I don't know how confident I am in the murderer data anyway. Um here's here's what I would like to unknow right now. I would like to unknow the fact that half of the people you think of as friends do not see you as a friend back.
(48:36) >> No way. >> This is something social sociologists have found repeatedly. >> Half of the people who I think are my friends, they don't think that I'm their friend. >> Correct. On average. >> Okay, explain more. Give me give me tell me more. This is I didn't want to know this. >> [laughter] >> I mean I I didn't either, but I think it has a silver lining. Okay.
(48:55) So, the what sociologists do is in a lot of the studies, they will ask you to list a bunch of people you know. >> Mhm. >> And then they ask you which ones are your friends, which ones aren't. And then they give that list to all the people on it and they say which of these people are your friends and which ones aren't.
(49:11) And on average, half of your friends do not friend you back. >> And why? >> Depressing at first. Why I I think the it's an open question. I think part of it is we are just not always clear on how people think of us. And I think that's a little bit that's sad, right? Part of it though is people have really different definitions of friend.
(49:35) And some people think if we had one good conversation in the last month, we're automatically friends. Others have a much higher bar. And some people are just they're only thinking of companions as their friends. Whereas other people include distant pals. And I think that that can lead to a different answer.
(49:53) Here's the good news about that. That also means that there are a bunch of people that you don't think you're friends with who see you as a friend. And those are opportunities for connection you're probably missing right now. >> How can I find that out? >> I don't know. That's a really good question. How would you find that out? I think the only way to find that out is to put yourself out there, to reach out to some people that you might consider acquaintances, and propose a pal, ally, or companion interaction, and see if they're interested, and see how it goes.
(50:22) >> And how can I find out people who don't think that I'm their [laughter] friend? Because that's also important. >> you want to find that out. I think No, I think the same thing, which is you you propose more interaction, and you see how they react to it. I actually think there's an overlooked group of people that we ought to we ought to be reaching out to that we don't.
(50:41) So, you know the distinction between strong ties and weak ties, right? >> Yeah, go ahead and explain one more time if you like for the audience who's listening for the first time. >> Sure. So, strong ties are are basically the people we interact with regularly and feel close to. They are our go-to allies, our you know, our key companions, our regular pals.
(51:01) Weak ties are the more distant acquaintances. They're somebody that if you desperately needed help, you might call them as an ally, or you might hang out with them if you ran into them in a foreign country, but you wouldn't schedule plans with them as a pal. Um and I think what we know from half a century of research is you are more likely to get useful help ironically from your weak ties than your strong ties.
(51:22) >> Yeah. >> Because your strong ties, despite being available to you, also have a lot of redundant information. They know the same people and the same things that you do. Whereas your weak ties, they travel in different circles, they meet different people, they can learn different things, they can open new doors for you.
(51:37) The problem, Raj, is it's really hard to reach out to a weak tie and say, "Hey, can I help you?" Or even sometimes, "I'd love to hang out." You're putting yourself out there. And I I that, you know, a lot of people just decide it's not worth it. I don't want to ask a weak tie for help. I don't think that, you know, it's my place to ask them to be my ally or companion or they're not going to want to hang out as a pal. So, I'm not going to bother.
(51:58) And that's that's one of the ways we just miss out on a lot of connections. Well, there's another kind of tie that can give you the best of both worlds. Both the the familiarity and trust of your strong ties, but also the new perspectives of your weak ties. Those are called dormant ties. >> Dormant ties. >> Dormant ties.
(52:16) They are the people you used to know. That you've lost touch in the last 2, 5, 8 years. What researchers show is we are too hesitant to reach out to our dormant ties. We are reluctant to contact them because we think, well, those ties are dormant for a reason. But actually most ties are not dormant for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall out of touch.
(52:40) We got busy. We moved. We changed jobs. We had kids. And there is a reservoir of goodwill in the relationships with people you used to know. In the studies, when people reconnect, 90% of the time they find it enjoyable. Not only is it enjoyable, but you actually end up getting better help from your dormant ties, the people you used to know, than the people you currently know.
(53:08) So, you can see this in studies uh with with people in their jobs. If you randomly assign executives, for example, to reach out to a dormant tie and get advice on a project, they actually get better help, better information than a current contact advising them on that same project. And the dormant tie is giving them, "Hey, here's something, you know, I've I've got a whole viewpoint that you haven't accessed in the last, you know, 7 years since we talked.
(53:32) " And I think for me what that raises is the big question of how can we get better at reconnecting? How do you reactivate these dormant ties that that maybe you've lost touch with? How do you do that, Raj? >> How Oh, I was going to ask you how to do that. But I am pretty So, I read this strong ties and weak ties concept from you only.
(53:51) Like, I think somewhere I read it or I heard it from you. And I'm pretty okay in reconnecting with my old connection which I've lost touch with. I instantly think about, let's say, 20 things that I'm going through and if I think that two things uh on these two things somebody from my old tie can help me, I just text them and tell them that this is what I'm going through and you were the first person who came in my mind.
(54:18) I don't know where you are at in your life, but I would love to have a conversation with you. >> Wow, I love it. So, you don't hesitate? >> Not at all. I'm I'm very I find it very natural to just like talk to people and ask them for help and always be there for them when they need help. >> That's I I think that's a really important distinction because a lot of people are worried that if they reach out and ask for help, they're going to get seen as a taker.
(54:44) And they say, "I don't want to be a taker. I want to be a giver." And I When I hear that, I say, "Great. Why don't you reach out to somebody that you lost touch with and say, 'Hey, I would love to find out what's going on in your life and how I can be helpful?'" >> Yeah. >> Something I mean, there's no reason why you can't offer to be supportive as opposed to just seeking help.
(55:00) And that that makes it much less transactional. So, I think that's a that's a good approach. I think other ways um my my favorite habits are I'm coming into your city. Um you know, I'm I'm going to be in town. I would love to get together. Only I have too many dormant ties in my life now. I teach a lot of students every year.
(55:19) Um I think I've I've had the good fortune of, you know, of I guess being involved in lots of different worlds and I never have enough time to see people when I'm traveling. So, what I've started doing lately is I'll reach out to anywhere between 5 and and maybe 15 people that I miss.
(55:36) And I'll say, "Hey, I'm coming to town. I would love to get together with a group of my favorite people for dinner, and you're one of them." >> [snorts] >> And then what happens is we have this great experience of not only catching up with each other, but I also get to connect them to other people that I think they would they would enjoy.
(55:51) And so that is a contribution to their lives. >> Nice. >> And then something happens afterward, which is inevitably, a few weeks later, I will hear from a pair of them or a trio of them saying, "Hey, we've actually really hit it off, and now that gives me an excuse to to be more part of their lives, and I feel like, you know, I I get the joy of making the connection, but also it helps me stay connected, and I don't have to then reconnect every time I go back to their place.
(56:19) " >> Nice. You know, something like this I do, like a version of this. It's >> Tell me. >> It's I also, because of my work, I happen to know like a lot of people, and I've lost touch with them, right? So what I do is, if I'm traveling, if I'm going somewhere, and instantly I think of somebody or something, like just maybe, let's say, talking to you reminded me of Ian, for example, right? Instantly after this conversation, I'm just going to text them and be like, "Hey, you know what? This reminded me of you, and I know that we've haven't talked in a
(56:49) while. I hope that you're doing good in your life. If there's anything that I can I I can help you with, please let me know, and I would love to catch up if you're here in the city." >> Boom. What you just did right there is called pebbling. >> Pebbling? >> Pebbling is my favorite way to both strengthen a bond with somebody you don't know well, but also reconnect with somebody that you've fallen out of contact with.
(57:10) >> Okay. What is pebbling? Explain it. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it it's not intuitive at all. So the term the term originally comes from a a ritual, a courting ritual among penguins. Some penguins, when they're trying to impress a mate, they'll present Actually, when they're trying to impress a potential mate, they collect um they go and collect smooth stones, and then they present them, which is basically showing, "Hey, I'm suitable as a mate.
(57:38) I can use these to build a nest with you." And, you know, nobody's gotten inside a penguin's head to know that they're that's actually what they're thinking, right? But, the ritual is penguins are going and finding a little pebble. They're presenting it to a potential partner, and it's a catalyst for a bond. I think the modern digital equivalent of that penguin ritual of pebbling is sending somebody an article, a meme, a reel, a link, something that reminded you of them.
(58:08) And there have been multiple studies now showing that when you reach out to somebody, either that you just met or somebody you haven't been in touch with in a while, and you say, "Hey, I read this article. I think you would love it." Or I watched this reel, it cracked me up. I know you'll find it hilarious.
(58:25) That actually brings you closer together because [clears throat] they're surprised that you thought of them. Right? Every single pebble that you send is a bid for connection. Each pebble is a bid for connection. Every pebble is a little gesture of care. And I think it's important to clarify, Raj, that you are not spamming them with random junk you found on the internet, right? You're You're taking the time to pick out something that was actually personalized to them.
(58:52) And that's a memory flex. You are proving that you paid attention to what they cared about, what they find interesting. Maybe you remembered a common experience or an offhand comment they made to you. I'll give you a small example of this. I I reconnected with a college friend after literally a decade of no interaction.
(59:10) And in our first email exchange, she remembered my favorite movie. And I couldn't believe it. I didn't even remember that I told her what my favorite movie was. And that said to me, "Wow, this is somebody who really takes the time to notice what matters to me. And this is somebody who who cared about our connection even when we were out of touch.
(59:28) >> Interesting. You know, this is a great way of doing things. But tell me what I do, is that wrong? Because sometimes I don't even know like I don't remember details about let's say some connection. And I would admit that in that text. I would upfront be like, "Hey, you know, I've forgotten everything about this.
(59:53) I don't even know, but this particular thing reminded me a few, so just I would love to you know, maybe get in touch again or if there's anything I can help you with, let me know. Like I'm I'm admitting upfront that hey, I've forgotten half of the things that we did together." >> I don't I don't have any problem with that.
(1:00:11) I think in general, we tend to judge people um well, no. I guess I guess what I would say on that is I think first of all, that admission is probably a little bit endearing. It's an unexpected moment of vulnerability and authenticity. And it's also coupled with you having thought of them. Right? And the fact that you thought of them, that's what really counts.
(1:00:34) You don't have to have memorized >> everything you've ever shared with everybody, yeah. >> No, no, [laughter] but a little detail, right? You don't even have to remember a single conversation you had with them. If you remember their taste, their preferences, their curiosity, their goals, right? You had to have a little bit of a sense of them in order to say, "Hey, I thought of this for you.
(1:00:58) " And if you didn't totally miss the mark, that is still a meaningful gesture. >> Mhm. True. You know, there's one more thing, like when you talk to people and when you build connection in the first go, right? There's something called instinct. You instinctively know that this person is not right for you. Right? And sometimes you're right about it, but sometimes you're wrong about it.
(1:01:19) >> Yep. >> So, how to know when to trust my instinct and when to not trust my instinct. >> That's a hard question. It's much more art than science, I think, person-to-person, interaction-to-interaction. I think the first thing to know though is that some of the people that we end up liking most are the people we started out disliking.
(1:01:39) >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in psychology and >> The people who I dislike in the beginning, I ended up liking them more. >> Some of our Yeah, some of our favorite people in our lives, our go-to pals, our most reliable companions and allies, are people we started out kind of disliking. >> Why and how? >> Okay, so [laughter] the why is that we saw them in one context and that context brought out aspects of each of us that clashed.
(1:02:09) And you know, I think you can see this and there's some really easy, familiar examples. Uh Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova did not get along on the tennis court. They were rivals. Uh and they were famously they had a pretty icy relationship. So, they clashed in that context, but then they retire from tennis and all of a sudden they realize there are not many other people on Earth who have lived what we lived.
(1:02:34) And they also end up having some shared experiences. They both become venture capitalists and they start investing. They also both become mothers and they have, you know, having children in common and all of a sudden they're not, you know, directly pitted against each other and they realize we actually have a lot of reasons to to get along.
(1:02:53) Larry Page and Sergey Brin uh the two of them met at an orientation at Excuse me, they met at a a Stanford orientation for computer science grad students and they found each other annoying and obnoxious and they were kind of both know-it-alls. And then they get into the computer lab and they realize that in that context they both are frustrated with how inefficient search engines are and they end up building Google together.
(1:03:21) And you know, again, they met in one setting where they were each trying to be the smartest person in their class or the most you know, to have the right answer in that interaction and they you know, they were basically their their incentives were to compete. When they had a reason to cooperate, a different side of them came out.
(1:03:41) And Okay, so that's that's the why is personality is not just a set of tendencies that we carry with us across situations. It's also a dynamic set of if-then signatures. That's what psychologists call them. Um, I think the easiest illustration of this is uh, I have um, I have a colleague who I have a really hard time knowing whether he is going to be friendly or whether he's going to be antagonistic.
(1:04:08) >> Yeah. >> And what I discovered over time was he's actually an authoritarian. Um, if you've ever watched the American Office, he's like Dwight Schrute. Uh, you haven't seen it. Okay. >> So, basically the pattern of authoritarian, excuse me, the pattern of authoritarianism is you are deferential and submissive with your superiors, but then you are very controlling and dominant with your subordinates.
(1:04:34) And so, if you meet this colleague of mine and you have power, you will think that he's the most cooperative, easy-going person you've ever met. If you lack power, you will if you will think he's a micromanager, he's a slave driver and you'll see a very different side of him. And that's a different if bringing out a different then.
(1:04:54) So, I think the way you apply this, do you know um, the Narnia and Lord of the Rings books and movies? >> Yeah. >> Okay, so C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote those, uh, they they basically made each other's careers because they were Oxford professors, uh, lecturers and they they they kind of were doing fiction on the side as a hobby, but they weren't intending to make a career out of publishing it.
(1:05:22) And they encouraged each other, they gave each other constructive criticism, they started a book club, and they actually developed their manuscripts side by side. And so, if the two of them hadn't bonded, we would not have Narnia or The Lord of the Rings. What's so interesting about their relationship is they could not stand each other when they first met in the 1920s.
(1:05:39) [clears throat] The two of them met at a faculty meeting, and they immediately clashed. Um, Tolkien insulted Lewis's favorite novel, and Lewis wrote in his diary that night that he needs a smack or so. Like, somebody needs to slap him. He disliked him so much. They show up at faculty meetings for months and months, and they are on opposite sides of a heated debate about whether the English curriculum should prioritize contemporary or classic material, and they are basically fighting every time they interact.
(1:06:10) And that could have been the end of their relationship. And yet, >> [snorts] >> Tolkien ended up starting a a little club to talk about, um, Icelandic mythology. And C. S. Lewis liked He liked Norse myths. And, um, he was like, "You know what? I'm a fan of Norse mythology. I'm going to show up, even though that that Anglo-Saxon Professor Tolkien that I I really dislike is running it.
(1:06:34) " And they ended up just getting into a a different kind of conversation about Asgard and Thor and the giants, and they they were actually up from 11:30 p.m. to 2:30 a.m. having this great conversation about Norse mythology. Within a year of that conversation, they were best friends, and they were starting to encourage each other to become fantasy novelists.
(1:06:55) And I think one of the reasons that a relationship like that can start off on the wrong foot and then get onto the right foot is they had to change their context to find a reason to come together. But then, they also had to work really hard to overcome the initial feelings of animosity they had toward each other.
(1:07:14) And that's a lot of cognitive dissonance of, "Wow, I really didn't like that guy. But you know what? I'm kind of enjoying hanging out with him." I have to work hard now. You have to work hard to convince yourself that he's not as bad as you thought. And the effort we put in to changing our own minds actually can crystallize and solidify those bonds into something much stronger.
(1:07:36) >> So should I not trust myself if I like someone? >> [laughter] >> Or should I not trust myself if I dislike someone? >> Well, this this goes back I think to your original question of how do you know when to trust your intuition or not? And I think what I would say is we should be careful about snap judgments because you are actually not getting the other person's vibe.
(1:07:57) You are getting the dynamic between the two of you in a particular setting. And so what I want to know is what happens when you interact in different environments, around different topics, or do different activities together. >> Mhm. >> Um the the snap judgment is your first impression. It's a narrow slice of the person. I want to see the full range.
(1:08:16) I want to watch them shapeshift and see all the different if-thens that they're capable of. And you're not going to try that with every person. >> Yeah. >> But if you meet somebody and you don't like them initially, instead of writing them off altogether, which closes you off to the possibility of connecting, I would say, "Okay, let's be really clear about what behaviors I didn't like of that person and when I saw them.
(1:08:38) And now let me just keep observing as I run into them more and see if there's a shift." >> So tell me if we have to make it simpler for people, if we make let's say three boxes in this. Someone I like, someone I trust, and someone who's good for me. What will be the signs? How do I find out? Because what we are essentially saying we are com- we are coming back to these three things.
(1:09:02) And they both and all three of them look different to me after this conversation. Earlier it used to be like, oh, I like this person. I should trust this person and he or she must be good for me. But right now they're all three different things. >> Yeah. >> Right? So can we like should I give you like a piece of paper or like a whiteboard to draw three things here? Perfect.
(1:09:23) >> You're going to have to suffer through my handwriting now, but I'll try. >> I'm good. >> All right, here we go. So we want like, trust, and benefit from. Right? >> Yeah, someone who's good for me. So benefit is that, yeah. >> Yep, okay. So the person you like, I think the easiest signal of that is going to be a pal.
(1:09:48) I think you're going to you're just going to feel joy and energy in the interaction and the clearest sign that you like somebody is you laugh together. Uh so laughing is the most basic, I think. >> Okay, nice. Yeah. >> Um I think when it comes to trust, I think that we're we're probably talking about um an ally is the person that you often will will trust.
(1:10:18) And that is probably I'm looking there for responsiveness. >> Responsiveness. Explain more. >> I think the most important form of trust is reliability. And that's more than having good intentions. It's actually having the integrity to follow through on your intentions. And so that is when you have a problem, you know this person will drop everything to help you solve it if it's a big deal.
(1:10:42) And you also know that when this person makes a commitment, they're not going to back out at the last minute. >> Mhm. >> And so I think that that responsiveness of, you know what, they might go weeks without responding to your random pebble text, but when you say, hey, I could really use your help, they are there.
(1:11:00) >> Mhm. So, the how fast are they responding to the time when you need the help? >> Exactly. Yeah, are they are they reliable in a in a time of both in Yeah, exactly. Are they reliable in a time of need? And then I think the the greatest benefit long-term comes from companions. And I think the reason for that is these are the people you open up to the most.
(1:11:20) They see kind of they see all of your shortcomings, your flaws, your foibles, your insecurities, and they are in the best position to help you grow in the long term. And I think the signal that somebody is a great companion is tough love. >> [gasps] >> You're looking for the person who tells you that you have broccoli in your teeth.
(1:11:40) Who says, you know what? I feel a little uncomfortable pointing this out, but you know what's even more uncomfortable than me telling you you have food in your teeth is me not telling you and letting you embarrass yourself in front of the next eight people that you meet. They are the people who would tell you the things you don't want to hear, but you desperately need to hear.
(1:11:59) >> Yeah. >> And I don't think we spend enough time looking at tough love as a signal of companionship. If somebody takes the time to tell you a hard truth, it usually means that they believe in your potential, they care about your well-being and your success, and the relationship is important enough to them that they are making an investment in saying something that is not easy to to communicate, um but they're doing it because they either want to help you or they believe that it's their responsibility to say it to you if other
(1:12:32) people aren't. >> True. I have one one follow-up on both of these. >> Yeah, tell me. >> So, trust. Can we trust people who we don't like? >> Yes. We often end up trusting people we don't like. >> Why? >> Because I think that this goes back to the point that you might like someone, but you don't like working with them.
(1:12:53) And the reason for that is you might have complementary skills, and they're really good at helping you achieve your goals, but your personalities are diametrically opposed, or you even have some values that clash. >> Mhm. >> The reverse can be true, too. You can trust people you don't like. Uh they might be actually Abraham Lincoln is a great example of this.
(1:13:17) Uh Lincoln uh you know about his team of rivals? >> No. >> Okay, so Lincoln, I think most historians and political scientists agree that he was the greatest American president. Lincoln is such an interesting example because after he got elected to the presidency, he asked his political opponents to join his cabinet. I wish we had politicians doing that today.
(1:13:37) And Lincoln understood that the people who disagreed with him made him better. >> Mhm. >> One of the the allies uh in his cabinet was Edwin Stanton. Edwin Stanton >> [clears throat] >> was basically everyone's least favorite person. Um he had no sense of humor. He complained when Lincoln cracked a joke. Uh he was not the guy that you want to have drinks with after work.
(1:14:02) And Lincoln understood that. He did not like the guy at all, uh but he also knew that he was an extremely steadfast and loyal person. He knew that this guy was tenacious. He was full of grit, and he made him his war secretary because he knew that was the person he could count on actually to try and prevent a civil war.
(1:14:24) And he also had the good sense to not have interactions outside of work with him because he recognized Stanton was an amazing ally once their goals were aligned, but he was not pal material. And I think this goes to the more general point. Um I got to see this up close when I studied astronauts and cosmonauts at NASA.
(1:14:45) I studied a crew of it was an American, an Italian, and a Russian. And it's going to sound like a bad joke because of that. [laughter] Yeah, an American, a Russian, and an Italian walk into outer space. >> Yeah. >> But this true this crew it was it was a crew of three people who clash in all kinds of different ways. And they had to learn to trust each other even though they didn't like each other.
(1:15:08) And what they learned was that trust was not about saying, you know what, we're going to have fun interactions all the time. It was not about saying, we want to we want to be in each other's lives when we're not on the International Space Station together. It was about saying, we have a mission to accomplish together. And I recognize that you are the most capable qualified person to do this mission with me.
(1:15:30) And I also recognize that you are so committed to the mission that I am willing to put my life in your hands. And I think this is something people often fail to understand is when you're working with with somebody in a group or a team, you don't actually need to bond within the group. You need to bond together to the group.
(1:15:50) And this is something psychologists have shown in data from thousands and thousands of people, dozens of studies. It's called task cohesion versus social cohesion. So task cohesion is we're aligned around a goal. Social cohesion is we sing Kumbaya and we're aligned around wanting to hang out together. And it turns out if you want to predict a team's effectiveness, task cohesion is more important than social cohesion.
(1:16:15) We do not need to agree with each other to be aligned with each other. We do not need to like each other to work well together. >> But how do I trust somebody I don't like? I know that let's say this person is capable. >> Yep. >> And I know this person can help me get better. But my judgment that I don't like him >> Yep.
(1:16:40) >> prevents me and stops me to trust him. So how do I trust this person? What are the signs? Like what should I look for? Is it that is he or she equally motivated to achieve that goal or no? Because at the back of my head maybe that person is the most capable person but I think that my that person might stab me because that person also doesn't like me.
(1:17:03) >> Yeah. So I think goal alignment is the beginning. You need to look at whether you share a commitment to a common mission. And I think beyond that, the mistake that a lot of people make is they're trying to gauge compatibility and they're saying, "Okay, what do we have enough in common up front in terms of our goals and our values to be able to to work effectively together?" That's the wrong question.
(1:17:27) Compatibility is rarely something you discover in your first interaction. It's something you develop through repeated interactions. So what I would be looking for is how can I create a set of shared experiences that allow us to build up the level of trust and earn it to each other, to prove it to each other. Um I would I what I would say let me let me give you the astronaut example cuz I think it's it's really vivid.
(1:17:49) So if you look at what NASA did, they had a really hard time getting this initial crew to come together and to to really believe they could trust each other. And they ended up sending them to the wilderness to to get lost in the mountains. They had a an outdoor leadership guide who basically said, "Good luck.
(1:18:08) " and left them on their own. And they had to solve hard problems together. They had to figure out where they were going to camp when it was freezing at night. They had to figure out how they're going to find food. And through doing that, you see the best and the worst of each person. And that allows you to get much more nuanced about trust.
(1:18:25) I think this is a big mistake that people make when they assess trust. They ask, "Can I trust you?" That's the wrong question. The right question is, "What can I trust you to do?" >> Mhm. >> Raj, can I trust you to ask thoughtful questions as a podcaster? >> Yes. >> Yeah, that was really easy for me to vet.
(1:18:44) I can I can pull up a lot of conversations you've had on YouTube. I can also ask a bunch of former guests of yours that I know. And that's that's clear, right? Can I trust you to make a good dinner? I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Can I trust you to navigate New York City if I get lost? Don't know. Right? So, the question is not do I trust you, it's when do I trust you? >> The context.
(1:19:05) >> Can I trust you with? It goes back to context. So, I think what you want to do, if you're trying to develop trustworthiness, if you're trying to earn somebody's trust, or build a collaboration where you have trust, what you want to do is interact with them in a range of challenging situations, so that you can see where are they capable and reliable, and where are they not.
(1:19:23) Um I've I've tried to explain this to my collaborators and just give them a a shortcut on this. So, I I actually I learned this from some leaders I was working with. You know how when you you get a a new piece of technology, it comes with the user uh sorry. You know how when you you get a new phone, or a TV, or a computer, it comes with a user manual? And it gives you instructions for how to operate it, and how to troubleshoot it? Well, the advice I got was to create my own user manual.
(1:19:51) Because humans are at least as complex as machines. I would hope more so. And I asked a bunch of my collaborators to write out a one-page document for what they wish they knew about me when we first met. And I started giving that then to new people I was working with, to say, "Look, you might want to know that I will respond extremely quickly um to any important message I get most of the time.
(1:20:18) I will be extremely slow if you send me anything that's not urgent or important when I'm working on a big creative project, like a book." And I didn't even realize that was that was a pattern of mine, but it was an if-then signature that one of my my colleagues pointed out. And all of a sudden, for the rest of my team to know that, means they will they will be much more proactive in, you know, calling me, emailing me, texting me if I'm in the middle in the middle of book writing because my normal responsiveness kind of falls falls by the wayside. Um in that
(1:20:49) document is also a description of how I run 5 to 10 minutes late, sometimes a little bit more, for anything that has a slightly flexible start time. But if the timing is important and there's an audience of people waiting for me, like a class or I'm giving a keynote speech, I will do my best to be early.
(1:21:11) And right, knowing that allows you then to know when you can trust me and when you can't. >> Mhm. Interesting. [clears throat] Help me this, okay? So, let's let's let's make this as a user manual. We help everyone who's watching this build their own user manual so that they can hand that out to the people they are working with or they're going to collaborate with.
(1:21:31) What are the questions or the things they should include in their user manual? Like give me the list. >> Okay, so we'll we'll start with the with the strength side. Uh this comes from research that my colleagues did at the University of Michigan on what they call the reflected best self portrait. And the idea is that we all have strengths that are invisible to us, just like we have weaknesses that that are sometimes called blind spots.
(1:21:52) And the best way to know your your invisible strengths is to ask the people around you, who am I when I'm at my best? So, that's the first question I would start with is, tell me about a time when I was at my best. And don't just describe the strength, tell me the situation where I used it so I can figure out the context where it's relevant.
(1:22:10) And I'm going to ask a bunch of people that. And the strengths that are going to be the center of my user manual are the ones that multiple people mention that also carry across different contexts. >> Interesting. So, that's the first question. >> That's the first question. The second question is, tell me something that I should not be trusted to do.
(1:22:28) Tell me something that you would not count on me for. Sometimes people are a little hesitant to answer that question. So, a variation that a former student gave me that I love is, "Tell me something positive that I am not." >> [laughter] >> And people are are pretty forthcoming on that.
(1:22:45) And again, you take that information and the the more it triangulates across people who know you in different parts of your life. If you get the same feedback from a pal, an ally, or and a companion, or from a family member, a friend, and a colleague, you know that is a pervasive strength or a real shortcoming of yours. >> Okay. That's second.
(1:23:04) Just two questions? >> I think that's all you need. And you need a big enough sample of people that you're getting consistent answers. So, I would I would say a good user manual is not built by talking to two or three people. It's built by talking to eight or 10 people, maybe even 15 or 20. >> Got it. So, let's flip it.
(1:23:20) Let's say because you're talking about can we trust people Should we trust people who we don't like? Can we like people who we can't trust? >> Definitely. >> Yeah. >> And we should not trust them. >> No, I mean that I think in a lot of cases that's the superficial charm we were talking about earlier. >> Mhm. >> It's also potentially a pal who is the ideal person >> Mhm.
(1:23:43) >> to plan your bachelor or bachelorette party, but you do you can't count on them to be in your wedding party. You don't want them uh knowing your all your secrets. You don't want them uh running uh business with you. >> Yeah. >> Watch out. >> Mhm. And why would you say that? Because if I know somebody and they know all my secrets, probably I trust them with certain things, right? >> Maybe.
(1:24:11) Or maybe you hung around with them in situations where they Yeah, exactly. >> [laughter] >> Exactly. They they happened to observe They've They've had They've gotten access to a lot of data about you. >> Mhm. >> Uh they saw you in vulnerable situations a lot and I I just think at the end of the day what you really want to know about people is you know not not do we have the same personalities but are we aligned on core values? >> Yeah.
(1:24:39) Um alignment on core values is very difficult to find out. >> It can be. I think one of the the mistakes people make is they talk about values in the abstract and I I I made this mistake earlier right? I said I value generosity, integrity, excellence, curiosity, humility, right? And I think those are those are decent shorthand for telling you here are the planets that you know that that I would I would choose to live on if I were going to highlight my top priorities in a word each.
(1:25:07) But then we need to do the extra work of breaking down what are the behaviors that I believe are core to to living a life of generosity. What are the key behaviors that violate my standards of generosity? And that's often where you and I might be misaligned. So one person says for me generosity is all about respecting people's time.
(1:25:26) And that means if you're late you are unkind and if you're early you are caring. And I look at that and say absolutely not. Generosity is being understanding that you know people have flexible timelines and not judging them for that. For me about generosity the core of generosity is are you willing to help people with no strings attached? And do you spend a lot of your time helping people who you expect to never reciprocate? Are you a pay it forward person as opposed to pay it back person? And if you and I don't have that conversation we could both say we value
(1:26:00) generosity and not actually be on the same page at all. >> Are you a pay it forward person? >> I aspire to be one but you'd have to ask the people in my life whether I succeed in living by those values. >> But do you think that you are that person? I'm just asking. >> I I I would like to believe yes. >> Is it even even I am like that.
(1:26:18) >> [laughter] >> I would also like to believe that because I think it's a much better way of living than pay it back living. It's just a belief that I have. Maybe I'm wrong. >> Well, I can I can back it up with evidence. So, I will I will give you some data to support your belief. The problem with a pay it back mentality, I I I wrote about this in Give and Take, uh is basically, if you are always um operating on a you know, I'll do something for you if you do something for me basis of trading favors.
(1:26:47) When you need help, you can only go to the people that you've supported in the in the past or you expect to be able to help in the future. And that actually limits you to a relatively narrow network. If you build a a whole web of relationships around the pay it forward philosophy, when you need help, you can go to anybody.
(1:27:06) You can reach out to a dormant tie, a weak tie, a total stranger who's part of your community or who belongs to your network because you know that everybody is agreeing to pay it forward. And sociologists have called that generalized reciprocity. Direct reciprocity is I'll do something for you if you do something for me.
(1:27:25) Generalized reciprocity is I'll do something for you knowing that I am investing in you doing something for someone else and that's going to create a an an ecosystem with more generosity and that means everyone can get more of the help that they need. >> Why are some people like that? Why are some people like they love to pay it forward and they don't expect anything back from you.
(1:27:47) And there are some people who will always expect something back from you. >> Yeah, I think why are people like that? That's a that's an that's a really good existential question. I don't know. I think there's there's probably to our earlier personality discussion, there's probably >> nature >> there there is a probably a biological predisposition on that, but I think there's a learned component in that as well, which is some people have learned that, you know, they've learned the hard way through experience or you know, through some
(1:28:17) very strong early role models that if you don't look out for yourself and put me first in a dog-eat-dog competitive world, [clears throat] then you're going to get exploited and taken advantage of. >> [gasps] >> And other people have been taught, which I think is a is a more successful way to live your life in the long run.
(1:28:33) It's also a more rewarding way to live your life in the long run. They have been taught that, you know, what? If you If you help other people with no strings attached, every once in a while somebody will take advantage of you. But most of the time, you're making a meaningful investment in a relationship and you are also encouraging other people to engage in generous behavior and you're planting that seed.
(1:28:56) And over time, if you operate that way, you can figure out how to help people with no strings attached in ways that don't cost you too much. Um the entrepreneur Adam Rifkin calls it a five-minute favor. He says you should be willing to do a five-minute favor for anyone. Uh it might be a microloan of your time to give somebody a little bit of feedback or coaching or advice.
(1:29:18) It might be a quick introduction between two people who have agreed they could benefit from knowing each other. And even just taking the time to write somebody a thank you note for something they did for you or for someone else to say, "Hey, I noticed." That mattered. Costs you very little. There's not a lot that someone can do to hurt you.
(1:29:36) It may be high benefit to them. And if you spend a lot of time in those in those five-minute favors, that's a way to test is this person going to pay it back or pay it forward? And if so, then you can take a little bit more risk in the way that you show up for them. >> True. And when you do this a lot, I believe you end up converting a lot of paid back people into paid forward as well.
(1:29:57) >> Yes, I think that's exactly the hope. And I don't think that people shouldn't also have the instinct to pay it back, right? I think that if you have a relationship where one person is always taking and the other is always giving. That's actually not a relationship. That is a charade.
(1:30:13) That is one person using the other person. >> Yeah. >> But I think there are some relationships that are naturally unbalanced. I think that a mentor or mentee relationship, the mentor should be giving more than the mentee is is giving. Uh but there should be also some ways that the mentor learns from the the mentee. >> Mhm. >> And I think that you know that ultimately we need people to we need people to both be willing to help unconditionally and also say I don't want to have a relationship where I am always the receiver and never the giver.
(1:30:44) >> You know when there's relationship, right? There's the relationship between two people. Uh when there's either in an office with the colleague, mentor, mentee, personal relationship, whatever, right? Do you believe that healthy amount of disagreement and fights actually gets them closer? >> Yeah, they can. Okay, so let's go to chapter six of vibe.
(1:31:06) >> Okay. >> I covered a whole series of studies showing that so this is the this is the the tough love factor. >> So we come back. Like do you want to explain it on the board or you you okay with just whatever? Explain me. What do you think? >> Well, we'll we'll find out if it's helpful.
(1:31:22) Yeah, actually I will I will I will explain it on the board. >> Perfect. >> So I think that most people basically believe this. I think most people think in order to have healthy conflict, to give tough love, to have a difficult conversation, uh to you know to have any kind of confrontation, you need to build trust and become close to someone first.
(1:31:51) And there is some truth to that. But what we overlook is that healthy conflict can also enhance trust and bring us closer together. And I love there have been now a dozen experiments that have shown that if you were randomly assigned to pick someone in your life, it could be a friend, a family member, a colleague, and tell them a truth that you might be hesitant to to raise with them.
(1:32:20) Two weeks later, you both report that you are closer than you were before. It is surprisingly easy to hear a hard truth from someone who is is making that investment in trying to help you grow. And I think the mistake we make, the reason we have so much unhealthy conflict, is we wait until the issue blows up, and then we attack and we put the other person on the defensive.
(1:32:47) And what we should be doing instead is recognizing it's not actually the message that causes most healthy conflict, excuse me. It's not actually the message that causes harmful conflict. It's our perceptions of the intentions and motives of the messenger. >> Were you trying to tell me that there's some amount of conflict which is making a relationship stronger, and then there's some amount which makes it toxic? >> It's not the amount, it's the type.
(1:33:13) >> It's the type. So, what type of fight is making a relationship toxic, and what type is making a relationship stronger? >> Okay, so the in the research it's called task conflict versus relationship conflict. >> Okay. >> Task conflict is you and I are disagreeing about decisions, goals, vision, strategy if we work together.
(1:33:34) Um if we're if we're pals or companions, we're disagreeing about what restaurant to go to or what movie to watch or where to go on vacation together. And that's good because you and I might have different opinions or different preferences. We also might have compatible preferences that neither of us voiced.
(1:33:50) And if you say, "I don't want to see a rom-com," and I say, "I don't want to hear excuse me, and I say Let me try that again. If you say, "I don't want to see a rom-com," and I say, "I don't want to see another superhero movie. Then we would say, what Allison? We just We discover we both love sci-fi. And so that's good, right? We want to have that disagreement.
(1:34:07) That's a task conflict. Where it becomes toxic is when it's relationship conflict. Which is Okay, you don't like rom-coms? Well, I don't like you. And also you smell bad. Right? Where [laughter] it starts to get personal, emotional, and it's not about the issue. It's It's about you versus me. I am judging you. I think there's something wrong with you.
(1:34:29) >> Mhm. So >> Question is, how do you surface a healthy conflict? >> Yeah. >> How do you give somebody tough love? My favorite experiment on this, this is David Yeager and his colleagues, shows that you can say 19 words and dramatically increase people's openness to constructive criticism. >> Okay.
(1:34:47) What are those 19 words? >> 19 words. Don't count them. I might give you 20 or or 18. >> Okay. >> But in their experiments, what they show is if you just say roughly, I'm giving you these comments cuz I have very high expectations and and I'm confident you can reach them. That is enough to lead people to be much more open.
(1:35:06) Because I am not attacking you. I'm not judging you. I am actually telling you something to to help you, right? I am here as your your ally. I am here as your companion. And I'm trying to support you. >> [snorts] >> And I think so often we deliver that message and we don't explain our motives up front. And then other people put their guard up and they they think it's you versus me as opposed to you and me trying to tackle a problem together.
(1:35:29) And you know, I think there are lots of versions of this. I have um I I found a couple other versions really helpful. I have I have found it really useful to to preface feedback or advice by saying, "Hey, I noticed a couple of things that I thought might be helpful for you. Do you want to hear them?" >> Mhm.
(1:35:45) >> And even just opting in, right? Now it's not an it's not a an onslaught. It's actually a conversation. Another one that I really like is to say um I think in in great relationships, we're always trying to make each other better. I would love to know what you think I could do better, and then if you're if you're interested, I'm happy to come up with some things for you as well.
(1:36:06) >> You know, it during the podcast usually when I disagree with people and I want to accomplish a really good podcast for my viewers and so that that's the exact motivation of the guest as well. And I disagree with something. Earlier I used to just say, "Hey, I don't agree with this." >> Yep. >> Right? And that used to kill the conversation.
(1:36:27) >> It shouldn't. >> Yeah, it it's if it's a highly secure guest, it'll kill the conversation. If it's highly insecure guest, then it'll make like just a fight. Like makes >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Right? You know, and then I found out that just this tweak where I used to say this that the moment you said this thing here's what I started thinking.
(1:36:49) >> Yes, you're walking me through your thought process not your conclusion. >> Exactly. And you know, I think like this and this and this. What do you think about that? So now I'm trying to opt like I'm trying to buy you a different kind of perspective, and you are giving your perspective. And sometimes I've seen that often times guest actually self-corrects them or just say that, "Hey, I like this perspective. I've not thought about it.
(1:37:11) Let me come back to you." >> Yes. >> And that makes so much better than just blatantly disagreeing. >> I I think that's exactly right. I think so two things you just sparked for me when you said that I I love the way you articulated that is it's a it's a very subtle shift, but it has profound implications, which you've clearly lived.
(1:37:31) I think the first thing is that we're looking for the wrong response when we disagree with other people or when we have conflict. We want people to say, "You know what? I was wrong. You were right." >> Mhm. >> Or even to go the Happy Gilmore extra step of um you were right, I was wrong. Um you're good-looking, I'm not attractive. >> But the clearest signal that you've reached somebody is not them saying you were right.
(1:37:57) It's them saying I never thought of it that way. >> Mhm. >> And what what you're trying to do is not change their mind, but expand their perspective. In a healthy conflict Well, actually, yeah, in I think in a toxic conflict, you're trying to to Let me try that one more time. I think in a toxic conflict, you are trying to dictate someone else's views.
(1:38:19) Yeah. In a healthy conflict, you're trying to introduce someone else to a new view and also get a better understanding of their view. And I think your idea of saying, "Hey, here's what I was thinking when you said that." It it actually maps perfectly onto something I was trying to do when I went through conflict mediation training.
(1:38:37) So, for a long time, I was a an extreme people pleaser, highly agreeable. I was afraid of conflict. And I I actually went and trained as a conflict mediator thinking if I could help other people through their conflicts, one, that would be helpful, and two, it would make me more comfortable at embracing conflict.
(1:38:55) And one of the things I learned was what's called the ladder of inference, which is this it's a it's a simple model. Here, let's let's draw it. >> Yeah. >> You have an eraser handy? Again. >> Let's go. >> All right, so let's let's take a simple a very simple model here. >> Mhm. >> Um we're going to go like this.
(1:39:16) So, you are in a team meeting. >> Okay. >> And you're Give me a name of somebody you don't work with. >> I don't work with Adam. >> Okay, good. All right, we're going to we're going to do this then. Okay, so we've got Raj and Adam, okay? So, this is a ladder of inference. Um we are in a we're in a Zoom meeting together.
(1:39:36) >> Okay. >> Okay? And I notice that you turn your camera off. And that's a little data point that I'm paying attention to. Okay? You're doing other things. >> Mhm. >> Uh you had typed a message in the chat. You might be tapping your foot. There there's a whole lot of other stuff going on in the meeting, but I zoom in on that data point.
(1:39:56) And then I make an assumption. Which is Raj is not listening. >> Mhm. >> And I could have made different assumptions, but for whatever reason that's the place I go. And then I I interpret that and eventually I get to a conclusion, which is not a team player. >> Mhm. >> And there's I mean this is normal. This happens in every interaction we have with another person.
(1:40:29) >> True. >> What I don't realize is you have your own ladder. I'm not thinking about this. >> Mhm. >> You have just been zoom-bombed by a toddler who ran into the room. Okay? >> Yeah. >> And your assumption is that that was thoughtful. >> Mhm. >> Because you didn't want to distract everyone, right? >> Yeah. >> And then your conclusion is that you are being actively helpful.
(1:40:57) Maybe even proactively helpful. >> Mhm. >> Right? >> Yeah. >> Now, we stop there. This is okay. This is just part of being human. I have my own ladder of inference in my head. You have a different one. This is what makes interactions messy, complicated, but also sometimes really interesting. The problem is I confront you.
(1:41:16) And I only argue with you about the conclusion. I come to you and I say, "Raj, I am so sick and tired of you not being a team player." And you're like, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I'M A GREAT TEAM PLAYER." And there's just there's there's no common ground there. What I should do is walk down the ladder. And say, "You know what? Hey Raj, I noticed in the meeting you turned your camera off.
(1:41:40) Just curious, what was behind that? >> Yeah. >> And then you can say, "Oh, actually >> [laughter] >> yeah, I got interrupted. And you know, please tell me if you think there's a better way to handle that in the future." And I could say, "Oh, no problem. I think you made the right call." And so I think that this this ladder is all about recognizing that we are constantly like climbing up the ladder without realizing it.
(1:42:01) And we make the mistake of confronting people with our conclusions instead of walking them through our data and then letting them correct our assumptions by sharing their data. And that means you have to be willing to be wrong. You have to know your interpretations were complete. When I did this, I probably have a whole history of being annoyed that other people turn their cameras off and they weren't paying attention.
(1:42:24) Or you and I got off on the wrong foot. And I look at this and I'm like, "You know what? That is so Raj. Exactly the kind of thing Raj would do to check out of our team meeting." Right? And then if we don't if we don't have this data exchange, I am constantly then in confirmation bias. I've concluded you're not a team player.
(1:42:41) I'm now looking at everything you do through that negative lens and it's just reinforcing my pre-existing convictions that you are not a good collaborator or ally. >> True. But how do you know that this person was not lying and making this up? >> You don't. You don't. And that's where I would say you ask them to share the data.
(1:43:02) You align on how to handle that situation in the future. And if they go camera off again, uh you you basically give them the benefit of the doubt. If they start doing it regularly, then you could say, "You seem to be getting a lot of interruptions. And I you know, I'd love to talk about that because I want to make sure that that's not interfering with your ability to be a good teammate, which is I know I know that's something that you care about, too.
(1:43:25) So let's talk about how we align on what being a good teammate looks like." And I've got to hold that person accountable, right then, for following through on what my expectations are. >> How many chances or how many benefit of doubts are enough? >> Oh, I wish I had a precise scientific answer to that question. I don't. I think >> [sighs and gasps] >> Well, there's actually there's game theory research on this.
(1:43:50) Uh on what's called generous tit-for-tat. >> Okay. >> So, you know in tit-for-tat, if somebody cooperates, you cooperate. If they defect, you're supposed to punish them. In generous tit-for-tat, you forgive them one out of three times. And in repeated games where people have an ongoing relationship or a visible reputation, that actually outperforms the the tit-for-tat approach.
(1:44:13) So, I think that you know, I'm I'm fine giving people the benefit of the doubt the first time. I will not though if they then cross me a second or a third time. I will not continue assuming good intent. At that point, as as Sheila Heen, who's a great conflict expert, taught me, I will say, I am no longer going to assume good intent.
(1:44:33) I'm going to realize I don't know their intent. And I need to be a lot more cautious with them. And I might not believe their explanations of their motives. I might give them more of a chance to prove through their behavior that they have hurt me. I think there's a there's a great saying that the best apology is changed behavior.
(1:44:52) And if somebody repeatedly claims that they're going to make a change and they don't follow through with their actions, I do not consider them trustworthy. >> But repeatedly, you give them just one chance and then second time it's off because of game theory you just you just >> I think it's one out of every three.
(1:45:09) And so, you would want to I think in >> times someone does someone something nice, one time they up, it's okay. And then >> The second time they're on notice. That's a warning. And I want to make sure I've been you know, it's it's kind of What's the saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If if they if they violate my values a second time, the only thing I'm going to do at that point is make sure there is no ambiguity about what my expectations and goals were.
(1:45:41) And [snorts] I'm also going to try to do everything I can to align their incentives with what I care about. And if they fail the third time, I am not wasting my energy on them anymore. >> Interesting. Let's say to to [snorts] sum this up, the fight question that I asked you, what would be one rule or the first rule that people should keep in mind when they're fighting with each other so that the fight gets them closer? >> I think the first rule the first rule of a good fight is you are not a mind reader. You cannot know what is in
(1:46:17) somebody else's head. You don't know other people's values, motives, intentions. They don't always have perfect access to what's going on in their head. And so I've actually started saying to people, and this is a great way to Sorry, let me try that again. I I've had a lot of fun with this. I think it's a great way to lighten the mood a little bit and go into pal mode during a conflict.
(1:46:37) I'll say something like, "Hey Raj, I know I can't read your mind. Would you be willing to read it to me?" And that that's me both, I hope, showing a little bit of humility, right? Thinking, "I don't know everything that's relevant to resolving this issue." It's me showing curiosity, inviting you to educate me, enlighten me about what's going on in your head.
(1:46:59) Um you know, I was genuinely surprised by this thing that happened, and I realized I have no idea what, you know, what drove it for you. And rather than make assumptions, whether those are fair or unfair to you, I just would like to I would like to understand you better so that we can get along better, we can be closer, we don't misunderstand each other.
(1:47:17) Walk me down your ladder. >> Interesting. I love this question. I I I love this way of actually dealing with like I can't read your mind. Can you tell me what's on your mind? It's a very good thing. >> Try it at your own risk. Let me know how it goes. [laughter] >> No, but [gasps] I I can instantly think of like so many different situations where I can use this whether it's it's with your romantic partner, a colleague, an investor, or like so many different people you can just do it.
(1:47:46) The moment you see them not only in fights, but the moment you see them checking out of the conversation. You can probably use this to bring them back in the conversation that hey, I I can sense that you've checked out and I can't see what's on your mind. Can you tell me what's going on in your mind? >> Yeah, I think I think it's a great way to at least get people to share something about what they're thinking with you. It may not be the whole truth.
(1:48:08) It may not be the the fully accurate picture, but it might be information that helps you. >> Do you know in the beginning when we were talking about vibe, there was one question I just you know pointed out and I forgot to ask you was I think you also touched about loneliness and we just shut that conversation but we didn't go deeper on that, right? >> Mhm.
(1:48:27) >> You a lot of young people have this problem that they don't have friends or they can't make friends. >> Yeah. >> So, if someone's moving to a new city and they want to instantly go build genuine connections and not wait for like 10 months or 2 years to build a genuine connection, what should they do? >> All right, there there are great experiments on this in the UK where people are randomly assigned to go through a 6-hour exercise and 2 years later they are significantly less lonely, less depressed, and they have a
(1:49:00) stronger sense of connection and social belonging. >> What is it? >> What do they do for 6 hours? >> Yeah. >> They were asked to map the existing groups in their life and figure out which ones they wanted to prioritize and also to identify some new groups to join. That's it. Become part of a group and it didn't matter much what kind of group it was.
(1:49:21) It could be you joined a church or a mosque or a synagogue. It could be you joined a basketball league or a cricket league. It could be you signed up for a painting class. It could be you volunteered for a charity. When people come together in a group, what's great is you have built-in pals because you picked something that you have an interest in and you also have immediate allies because the group has a goal that they're trying to accomplish together.
(1:49:49) And I think that we've, you know, it's been a quarter century since Robert Putnam published Bowling Alone and documented the fact that people in people had stopped bowling in leagues and, you know, American community was getting more and more fragmented. We've seen that happen in many many countries throughout the world now, not always with bowling, but I think we we see a lot of people who are struggling to make friends.
(1:50:16) We see people spending more and more time alone. I think that I think that the best antidote to, you know, to feeling isolated is not just to get to know one person at a time because there's research on this which I found fascinating. It turns out if your friends don't know each other, you actually feel less supported than if your friends do know each other.
(1:50:39) And I think this has been a a fairly global shift that our networks used to look like very densely woven spider webs where kind of, you know, everybody who was friends knew each other. >> Yeah. >> And now if you ask people to map their networks, they look much more like a bicycle wheel where you're a hub and you have these spokes that are not directly connected only through you.
(1:51:00) And the reason that's problematic is one, you can't do anything at the group level. So you miss out on collective effervescence which is that great experience of, you You a group activity where you feel like you're part of a community or a team as opposed to you just have a one-on-one bond. But also, if if you're going through a hard time, nobody [clears throat] knows to tell everybody else because your friends are strangers to each other.
(1:51:25) Whereas if you're part of a group and one person finds out that you broke your leg or you're going through financial strain, right? The group can rally to support you. >> Interesting. That This is so true. I I started thinking of 20 scenarios in my head the moment you said web versus bicycle. And it is so true.
(1:51:47) I'm the I'm the connector. And my group is not connected. They have no clue and that's why I find I struggle to do group level things. >> Well, I think now is the perfect moment Raj to introduce your friends to each other >> Mhm. >> and start forming a group. You know, when my when my oldest left for college, she she felt like No, [snorts] sorry.
(1:52:07) I don't want to I don't want to That'll be too long of an explanation. Let me try it this way. Um I think a lot of people believe the key to making friends is to have a bunch of one-on-one interactions. And it is it is easier to bond with people one-on-one, but finding your place is much more about joining a group than meeting one person.
(1:52:25) >> True. Go for the longer one. The longest >> Oh, the longer one. So, um we One of my daughters um I had a conversation with my daughter about uh how hard it is to change I actually I have a short I have a shorter version of the story. Let's try this. So, my daughter changed schools uh as a teenager. >> Okay.
(1:52:45) >> And we had a lot of conversations about how hard it is to break into a friend group that's been together already for years. >> True. >> And she she felt like she couldn't find her group. And then she went to college and realized she could form her group. And it was such a lightbulb moment. And I do think that this is one of the keys to isolation.
(1:53:10) This is one of the ways to to fight loneliness. It's to say, if you cannot find your group, then it's time to form your group. And all you need to do is find a few people that you share a hobby with or you share a mission with and invite them to [clears throat] show up together and and see how it goes. >> See, this is basic information, right? People know this already.
(1:53:31) Still, people don't do it. Why do you think people are getting lonelier and lonelier? They've started eating alone, they started doing activities alone, they started going for even the sports alone and they just come back alone. They're not friends with people. Why is it happening? >> I think it it starts to feel risky. Because you used to have to interact with other people to to to have a meal.
(1:53:54) >> Yeah. >> You used to have to connect with people to play a game. And now like we have readily available, like we can, you know, we can get the ingredients we need or you know, we can order from our favorite delivery service. Um we can play video games alone. And so we're not as dependent on other people to to do our pal and and ally activities as we used to be.
(1:54:18) I think, you know, it's it's basically I think that's part of the problem. I think the other part of the problem is you feel like you're taking a risk. You might get rejected. If you ask someone else to do something and they say no or it doesn't go well. But I think every rejection is a learning opportunity.
(1:54:37) I think that every time you don't vibe, it's a chance to figure out, well, how can I have a better connection next time? And I think we should take a much longer view and uh and imagine if you don't ever put yourself out there, how many relationships are you going to miss out on? It's just a sad way to live your life, I think.
(1:54:55) >> But do you think that it's also because a lot of people have gotten polarized? So you feel like >> Yeah. >> I don't agree with your views, you don't agree with mine, and that's why it's like it's not worth having a conversation with or building friendship with. >> I I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, there there was a study that came out a few years ago showing that people would rather interact with a stranger who shares their political ideology than a friend who doesn't.
(1:55:24) That That is a problem. Right? When we think that our interactions are going to be defined by one set of views and a very limited portrait of a person, like we are we are failing to I think to build solidarity and to build community, which by definition is people coming together across differences. >> Let's say, do you think that two people who disagree on something very central like politics, religion, can they form a genuine close bond? >> Yeah, of course. Of course.
(1:55:55) I mean, there there are tons of examples of this in Vibe. Uh you know, we talked about C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien earlier. Uh one, when they met, Lewis was an atheist, and Tolkien was a devout Christian. And at first, they they just overcame that difference by talking about mythology. >> Mhm. >> And over time, Tolkien [clears throat] actually convinced Lewis to adopt Christianity.
(1:56:21) And they they ended up changing each other in various ways. Um I think that if you reduce somebody to one belief or one attitude, you're going to find a very strong reason not to interact with them. >> Mhm. >> If you see people in three dimensions, if you look at humans as more of a kaleidoscope, you're going to find lots of reasons to interact with them.
(1:56:40) >> True. You know, you During a conversation, you've brought this multiple times that you were an introvert. >> Still am. >> You still are. >> I've become less shy, but I'm still an introvert, for sure. >> So, you were a shy introvert, but you're much better right now. I don't see that.
(1:56:58) You have a lot of people to interact with. You have this career where you are always on the stage and limelight and like all of these things you do, right? Tell me, how can an introvert become a socially magnetic person? >> Well, >> you've done this for yourself. >> Yeah, I So, I mean, I don't know. Socially magnetic is a high bar.
(1:57:16) I've certainly become less bad at connecting and communicating than I used to be. And I think that for me, this you know, this goes right back to if-then, which is I I thought I was going to have to change my personality. And then I had an extraordinary professor, Brian Little, who was the most captivating lecturer I've ever seen.
(1:57:36) >> Mhm. >> And he confided to us that he's an introvert. And I thought, okay, if Brian can learn to give these spellbinding lectures, anybody could, you know, could learn [clears throat] to come out of their shell a little bit more. And I started paying attention to my if-thens. When am I naturally animated? When am I comfortable reaching out to people? And guess what? It was almost always telling people about psychology research.
(1:58:01) I I just like naturally I I loved the ideas so much and I wanted to share them and I thought they were helpful for, you know, achieving success and boosting happiness. I a different version of me showed up when I was learning about a new study or I was reading a meta-analysis, nerd alert, a study of studies.
(1:58:20) I was like, I can't wait to tell you about this, you know, this empirical synthesis of all of the studies that have been done to date on this topic. And I realized that if I select myself into situations where I get to talk about this thing that I love, it's not an act, right? This is This is me. You are seeing me expressing my values as opposed to my personality.
(1:58:39) >> Mhm. >> If you have to boil it down to the simple playbook or like rules to follow for an introvert, what you have done, how would you describe that? Like, give me three rules how an introvert can actually become an extrovert. >> So, I would say don't become an extrovert. I would say don't try to change your personality, adapt your behavior.
(1:59:01) >> Okay. >> And what that means is you're looking for specific situations where you feel that your introverted tendencies are a barrier to achieving your goals or expressing your values. And so, let's take let's take some examples. Those might be public speaking. >> Mhm. >> Especially if you're shy and anxious, harder to do as an introvert than an extrovert.
(1:59:19) >> Yeah. >> That might be meeting new people. Um introverts are are actually really great at strengthening bonds, but often initiating them is something they hesitate around. Okay, so I've identified some specific situations. I don't have to be an extrovert in every walk of life. That's the first step. Find the moments where you want to be more energetic and more assertive and more outgoing.
(1:59:41) Second step is identify your triggers. What are the cues that bring that out in you? So, for me it was sharing ideas about psychology. For somebody else, it might be any bit of knowledge that they love to share. It might be um a setting in which they feel more confident. And so, if you are an avid surfer or water skier, go meet people on the beach, right? And that will be then, okay, people are naturally going to going to gravitate toward you.
(2:00:08) They're going to approach you. You feel like you have something to offer there. And then, I think the third thing is to know your limits. I think if you put yourself in that situation too too long, what the data tell us is that is a recipe for burnout. And so, you need a you need a container to say, "Okay, I will give a certain number of speeches or I will meet a certain number of new people.
(2:00:30) " And in fact, I think that's a great place to start is to say, "Let's put all these pieces together. You've identified the behavior you want to adapt, the situation you want to become more assertive, energetic, or outgoing in, and exactly how much of that you can handle." And then you set a goal and you say, "I'm going to introduce myself to one new person a week.
(2:00:48) Or I'm going to give three talks per month. And that's a very achievable goal. And now I'm not stressed about all the other times when I'm not hopping on stage or I'm not reaching out to somebody because I've set myself a container. I've created a a manageable stretch goal for myself. >> See, you know, what I also believe is >> [snorts] >> I read this a while ago.
(2:01:13) It's called likeness gap. >> Yeah, this is Erica Boothby's research. Yes. Yes, we underestimate how much other people like us. >> Exactly. Like a lot of people who think that they're introverts, they feel like they don't have anything exciting and their life is very boring and they don't have this thing that where they can keep a conversation and other people are going to find them bad.
(2:01:33) So, they don't even initiate it. >> Yeah. >> That other people not going to like them. And on an average, people like us way more than we think about. >> That is empirically true and I I would add two things to it. The first one is that even boring conversations are more interesting than we expect. There's a brand new paper on this.
(2:01:51) It turns out that not knowing what the other person is going to say and also thinking of things that we want to say is enough to keep us engaged. If you want to have better conversations, keep your turns short. More rapid back and forth is actually associated with a better vibe because we end up then creating a dynamic that's called burstiness where the the conversation is literally bursting with energy and ideas and we're building on each other and we're riffing off of each other and if you talk too long, it becomes a monologue as opposed
(2:02:19) to a meaningful exchange, which is I think the great danger of being a good interviewer. >> [laughter] >> As a podcast host, right? You ask a meaty question and I might have 5 minutes of thoughts worth sharing with you. That would not be a good model for a conversation. I think optimal turn turn length is probably no more than 1 to 2 minutes.
(2:02:36) And sometimes we want to be going back and forth every 10, 20, 30 seconds. That's one thing. The other thing I'll say on this, ironically, cuz you did make me think of another thing, is add the the liking gap or the liking gap, add to the liking gap the spotlight effect, which is the long-standing phenomenon where people assume that others are paying more attention to them than they actually are.
(2:02:58) You go into an interaction, you feel like, "Oh, no, I was an awkward turtle. I really messed that up." And the other person was they didn't even notice. They were thinking about the mistake that they made. And we just we we kind of live our lives thinking that we're in a spotlight, when in fact most of the time we are in the audience, and the other person is in their own spotlight.
(2:03:20) And I think that just makes it way easier to accept all of the just the stumbles we have in our interactions with other people. >> Yeah, that I used to believe in this one thing, but not I mean, that helped me. I don't know if I still believe it or not, but it's a good way to start conversations.
(2:03:37) I used to be very awkward in when I used to go to these large conferences and networking events, right? I used to be very insecure about myself that oh, did I do well? Did I look well? Did I talk to the right person? Like, do they think that I'm valuable? So etc. And the mindset shift which helped me become much better is everybody's insecure about themselves.
(2:03:56) >> Yes. >> And the way to form better connection is can I make somebody less insecure about themselves instead of thinking about my own insecurity because the back of the head almost everybody's insecure. So, can I help them become little secure? And that's the way to build connections, and it helped me so much that I was just looking for an opportunity to make people feel better, >> [clears throat] >> make people feel better about themselves.
(2:04:25) And it just helped me build connections after that. >> That's such a great insight. That I mean, that's what you would expect to give or rather than a take her to do in an interaction is to start by by offering, how can I make the other person feel secure? You know, it's it's funny. I've watched my wife Allison do this so beautifully. She'll She's She's also She's much more introverted and even shyer than I am.
(2:04:45) And despite that, I think because she's highly socially skilled and she's also kind, we'll we'll show up at a dinner party or some kind of gathering and she'll she'll walk up to a total stranger and say, "I love your shoes." And I think she's just she's you know, she's not look she's not out looking for something to praise.
(2:05:06) But, when she notices something that she likes, she's she's very generous with compliments. >> Nice. >> And I think that's one of the easiest ways to vibe with people is anytime you notice something that you could praise about someone else, don't bite your tongue. Share it. People love to be told something good about themselves and we are constantly admiring other people's strengths, sometimes envying their skills and their accomplishments.
(2:05:32) Why not just put that on the table more often? >> True. So, let's say if we have to summarize everything, >> Yeah. >> all the things that we've talked about how to vibe with people, give me your top three rules. >> Top three principles for vibing with other people. Number one, pick your wavelength. Decide if you want to be allies on a mission together, pals having fun together, or companions confiding in each other.
(2:05:58) Number two, lead with a little bit of vulnerability. >> Mhm. >> Say, like if if you walk up to somebody that you've just uh that you've only met once or twice before and say, "You know, something that I really appreciate and admire about you is Uh actually, I guess that's the compliment approach we just talked about.
(2:06:17) So, I'll I'll give you that as number two. Number two, be generous with compliments. When you appreciate somebody, let them know. The research on this shows that you might feel awkward saying thank you, but they actually just feel gratified. It makes them feel that they matter. >> Mhm. >> And then number three, if you want to if you want to build a stronger vibe with other people, uh let them know If you want to build a stronger vibe with other people, don't be afraid to argue and fight about little things because that's how you practice for the
(2:06:49) bigger ones. But, it's also how you learn to accept that we don't have to agree on everything to be aligned on important things. >> True. What is the one advice nobody should follow? >> Nobody should follow? I think oh, there there's so many. I think I think one piece of advice no one should follow is follow your passion.
(2:07:16) Because what you're passionate about today might be boring to you tomorrow. And also, it doesn't take into account what you're good at and what makes the world better. And so, you could listen to your passion, but I would say follow your talent, find your purpose, and then develop your passion. >> Nice. I really like it.
(2:07:40) >> [laughter] >> I like it. You I used to have a version of this, but you just made it much more better. >> What was yours? >> stealing this. >> [laughter] >> No, I used to believe in the same thing like don't follow your passion actually. But, mine was only that in the beginning find something which can pay your bills.
(2:07:57) And once you reach a comfortable position, then start thinking about passion things. Right? Don't be On day one when you are broke, don't think about following your passion. >> [laughter] >> I think that's fair. It needs to be practical. >> Yeah, like just just make the ends meet and then start thinking about all these things.
(2:08:13) But, your version is even better. >> I don't think it's better. >> No, I I like >> it's complimentary. >> Yeah, I I like this. Okay. I asked this question to almost everybody. What personal cost did you pay to become Adam Grant? >> A lot of discomfort. putting myself in situations that I did not succeed in. Uh, you know, crashing and burning as a public speaker, getting lots of critical feedback from students and from audiences, um, literally crashing as a springboard diver >> [laughter] >> when I when I was not I wasn't flexible and I couldn't jump high and I didn't
(2:08:53) have good body control. Uh, that was That was hard. Um, you know, seeking a lot of interaction where I felt like I failed to connect and I still stumble in lots of interactions. I think I I vibe with more of the people more of the time now than I did before, but it's always a work in in progress and I'm always learning something and I think that's part of the joy and excitement of every interaction is saying, "Okay, if something goes wrong, worst case scenario, it'll be material.
(2:09:17) It'll be a story I can share in the future or it'll be something I can learn to get better." I think the the other to be really really candid on this, I think the other sacrifice I made to to get where I am is I under-invested in friendships for a long time. I remember when Give and Take came out in 2013, my first book, somebody asked me, "How do you prioritize who you spend time with?" And I said, "Family first, students second, colleagues third, everyone else fourth.
(2:09:48) " And I was I was kind of locked in to being like a good ally and companion and hopefully pal to my family. And then basically an ally to my students and to my colleagues. And I completely forgot about a category of people who really matter in my life and the idea of being a good friend and I think that I I spent too little time checking in on my friends and trying to be supportive of them, but also just hanging out with them.
(2:10:16) It's good to have pals in your life. And I think I didn't need to make that sacrifice. I think I could have I could have been a little bit more selective in what I said yes to and made more time for my friends and not only am I am I working hard to correct that now, but I wrote a whole book about Vibe knowing that if I went and talked to other people about it, it was going to it was going to motivate me and hold me accountable around prioritizing this, but I've also in the past few years I started creating more groups. Um I now
(2:10:47) host a gathering where I bring interesting people that I've met from different walks of life together and I get so much joy out of building that community and helping people connect with others that they can vibe with and I think that is a contribution that I really overlooked is I I don't have to just join a community and then try to maximize my contribution to it.
(2:11:09) I can actually build a community and help everyone elevate their contributions to it. >> Interesting. Nice. This is such a common cost that a lot of ambitious people have talked about. >> I'm sad to hear it, but I'm hoping to help change it. >> Well, I hope that too. And I'm stealing this one more thing from you of actually going to a city and building like throwing a dinner with all the interesting people I know so that I can convert my bicycle into a web.
(2:11:38) >> There you go. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, and then you'll get caught in the web. >> But that'll be interesting. Thank you so much. It was pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you, Raj. Pleasure was all mine. I really appreciate all the questions you've asked and just how much you've thought about the things I've spent my whole career studying and I think you you're doing an amazing job taking complex ideas and making them digestible and also widely accessible and like yeah, that's my mission.
(2:12:04) So thank you for being a great ally. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there a feedback for me? >> I think uh this is so hard. I think I I always have feedback cuz I think you're doing a disservice to people you spend time with if you don't give them a comment. I think it's interesting to me that you respond to a lot with but and you don't always disagree when you say but.
(2:12:27) And when I hear you say but, I think, "Oh, this is going to be a debate or a dance or you know, some kind of disagreement." But then you're actually like you're adding a layer of nuance or you're taking the topic in a new direction. And I might say if you reserve the but for when you really want a challenge, you'll get a little bit less defensiveness from people who are insecure.
(2:12:47) >> Oh. Wow, I didn't even notice it. Thank you. So, instead of using but uh and making the conversation deeper, you're you're saying that maybe I use and or some other word. >> I I think there's I mean there's probably a whole repertoire of options. I think you could say interesting or intriguing or huh. Uh and I I think if you just if you diversify the initial response, right? You're sending a signal.
(2:13:11) This is one of the things I've I've become much more attuned to as I've studied vibing. That first bit of communication, that but, tells me, "Okay, there's something oppositional or something contrarian coming." And actually like I which I'm excited about and I love I love having debates and I think we we disagreed productively on on several things today.
(2:13:28) Um but I yeah, I think I think it's you know, it's one of many tools in your toolkit and I think it it has greater effect if you use it when you are going to diverge. >> Wow, thank you. >> What about for me? >> Thank you. This is so good. >> This By the way, you just delivered a masterclass in how to receive feedback.
(2:13:46) Just saying thank you and smiling and taking notes. Tell me what I can do better. >> If you have first thought about telling a long story, go ahead and tell it. >> Oh, you don't think I should self-censor? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Like I I saw you doing that and I'm just being critical. >> Yeah, you should. >> It's like I could see that there is a longer version in your head, but you're like, "Oh, maybe just make it more digestible for audience.
(2:14:12) " And you cut it short and you give it a shorter version. >> I can definitely do that. I I definitely bit my tongue four or five times. Like, "Well, I don't want to like I don't want to take all this time on the one story when there's probably lots of other interesting ground to cover." Okay, I will I will work on that.
(2:14:27) Thank you for sharing. >> Thank you. I love this. Thank you so much. >> I had a blast. Thank you for having me, Raj. >> Pleasure having you. How are you? >> Yeah, how are you? >> Good to see you, Adam. >> Thank you for hosting. Ian Bremmer said this is the best podcast experience he's ever had. >> No way. >> And I told him I found that offensive.
(2:14:44) >> [laughter] >> He's been on my show, but he said you were amazing. >> Wow, this is so Thank you. Like, thanks to him. This I think he was just hyping it up for me. >> No, he doesn't he doesn't do that. >> He doesn't do that? >> Nope. >> So, you're like really close friends with him? >> He's a He's a very good friend and he is very critical of a lot of >> [laughter] >> a lot of things, as you probably noticed.
(2:15:04) >> Wow, I'm really happy. I've been a big fan of your work. >> Honored. I will try not to make you regret or rethink that, but you never know. >> You'll be fascinated to know that A, I'm very nervous. And B, because you were the you were probably the only reason because of whom I wanted to actually go to an Ivy League school and study.
(2:15:26) >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Oh, wow. >> I couldn't, but I really wanted. I was looking forward to you like maybe attend one of your classes because I used to follow you a lot. >> It's never too late. >> Yeah. >> You can do an MBA in the future. Just for >> now I get to spend time with you like this. >> That's right.
(2:15:43) You bring You bring You bring the teachers to you, right? >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guest you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(2:16:01) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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Title: How to Read People, Build Trust & Choose Better Friends | Adam Grant | FO576 Raj Shamani
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Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
03:28 - Why We’re So Bad at Judging People’s Character
05:23 - Adam Grant Explains the Science of Human Connection
12:16 - How to Have Better Conversations and Build Deeper Connections
21:12 - Can You Create Chemistry? The Science of Building Connections
28:55 - Are Virtual Dates as Good as In-Person Dates?
32:32 - When Instant Chemistry Is a Red Flag
36:07 - What Your Role Models Reveal About Your Values
41:30 - Nature vs. Nurture: What Shapes Your Personality and Character?
50:41 - The Surprising Power of Reconnecting With Old Friends
1:01:02 - Why First Impressions Can Be Wrong
1:11:13 - What Makes Someone a True Friend?
1:12:34 - Can We Trust People We Don't Like?
1:23:18 - Can We Like People We Don't Trust?
1:30:44 - How to Handle Conflict Without Damaging Relationships
1:36:07 - The Ladder of Inference: How Assumptions Lead to Conflict
1:43:33 - Trust, Broken Promises & How Many Chances to Give Someone
1:48:16 - How to Make Friends, Overcome Loneliness & Build Community
1:56:41 - How Can an Introvert Become a Socially Magnetic Person?
2:01:08 - The Liking Gap: Why People Like You More Than You Think
2:05:34 - How to Vibe With People
2:06:59 - What's One Piece of Advice Nobody Should Follow?
2:08:19 - The Personal Cost of Becoming Adam Grant
2:12:08 - Feedback for Raj
2:14:33 - BTS
2:15:46 - Outro
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In today’s episode, we sit down with Adam Grant — Organizational Psychologist & Bestselling Author — the Wharton professor who has spent his career studying how to make work not suck, and author of the new book Vibe.
We discuss why the most selfish takers are often the best fakers, the three wavelengths every relationship runs on (allies, pals and companions), why half the people you call friends don’t see you as one, how dormant ties and “pebbling” revive lost connections, and the 19 words that make anyone open to hard feedback.
If you’ve ever felt surrounded by people and still alone, this conversation will change how you choose and keep your people.
Subscribe for more such conversations.
Follow Adam Grant here:
Instagram: / adamgrant
X: https://x.com/AdamMGrant
LinkedIn: / adammgrant
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About Raj Shamani
Raj Shamani is an entrepreneur and the host of the Figuring Out Podcast. He sits down with experts, athletes, celebrities, billionaires, and world leaders to break down how they actually win: money, business, mindset, relationships, and life. He's also a bestselling author, speaker, and angel investor. His work sits at the intersection of business, psychology, and human behaviour.
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Transcript:
(00:00) Half of the people you think of as friends, do not see you as a friend back. >> No way. >> This is something sociologists have found repeatedly. >> People are terrible at choosing right people. >> Why do you say so? >> I think one of the mistakes we make, whether you're looking for a romantic partner or teammate to collaborate with, is we pay too much attention to how people treat us.
(00:21) What you really want to know is how do they treat the person who's below them? How do they treat someone who can't help them back? >> Adam Grant, you have studied people for decades. You're trying to find out why they win, why do they lie, how are they being trusted. You've helped and advised like the US Army, Google, and bunch of other companies in the world.
(00:41) Tell me top three questions which are great to start building a vibe and connection. >> I would say number one, I probably want to start with tell me about a favorite memory. A second question that I love is if you could go back to one point in your life, what would it be? And then a third favorite is tell me about something you regret that you wish you could redo.
(01:00) The research show if people just spend seven minutes in deep talk, that is enough to accelerate their bond. >> And what would be the worst question? >> Number one would be what do you think of the current political situation? Second risky question is to ask people about their religious beliefs. And then I think the third category of questions that I would say avoid is >> There's something called instinct.
(01:20) You instinctively know that this person is not right for you. Sometimes you're right about it, but sometimes you're wrong about it. So how to know when to trust my instinct and when to not trust my instinct? >> I think the first thing to know though is that some of our favorite people in our lives, most reliable companions and allies, are the people we started out disliking.
(01:40) >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in psychology. >> How can you find out that somebody is just manipulating you and not actually vibing and connecting with you? >> I would ask them who their role models are. Who do you admire? And oftentimes people reveal their values through who they look up to. >> How to vibe with people? Give your top three rules.
(01:59) >> I have three principles for vibing with other people. Number one, >> Let's say somebody's going out on a first date. What should they do in the first 30 minutes to build a certain vibe? >> From reading the research on first dates, my biggest surprise from a paper that came out earlier this year, what they show is that >> I have a small favor to ask you.
(02:22) I need you to subscribe to our channel. The more subscribers we have, the better and bigger guests we can bring and provide you more value through these conversations. And the full audio experience of this show is also available on Spotify, where you can follow us and listen to the new episodes as well.
(02:41) To perform at your best, your body and mind need to be at their best. And a big part of that comes down to what you eat every single day. The food you choose either fuels you or slows you down. That's why your food choices matter so much. And that's where Urban Platter comes in. They make better-for-you products that deliver on both taste and quality.
(03:05) So, you never have to pick between the two. Every ingredient is thoughtfully sourced, giving you cleaner alternative for your everyday meals. They make sure you eat mindfully and make better choices that fit into your life with no restrictive dieting. To know more about Urban Platter, check the link in the description below. >> What's really fascinating to me is you have studied people for decades.
(03:35) You've trying to find find out why they win, why they not win, why do they lie, how are they being trusted. And you've helped and advised like the US Army, Navy, Google, and bunch of other companies in the world. Then you teach at the top like you teach top 1% students in the world. And after doing all of this, you said something which is very tricky.
(04:02) And to me that is >> [laughter] >> That was I always thought I'm good at it, but you actually say that after reading and doing all these research, you found out that people are terrible at choosing right people. And why do you say so? >> Ah, there are so many reasons. This is true whether you're looking for a romantic partner, a roommate, or a teammate to collaborate with.
(04:26) I think one of the mistakes we make is we pay too much attention to how people treat us, and we don't think about how they treat everyone else. And if you're if you're in a position of power influence, I see this all the time with CEOs, with founders, with with people in any position of leadership. They don't realize that the people below them are motivated to put their best foot forward.
(04:49) And so the the most selfish takers are the best fakers when they're dealing with powerful people. And that's that's how they get ahead. And what that means is the more power and status you gain, the more compromised your judgment of other people's character is. What you really want to know is how do they treat the person who's below them, or the person who's their peer, not how do they treat the person up, right? We can we can get fooled a lot by takers who are great fakers who kiss up and kick down. I think the real measure of of
(05:18) somebody's character is how do they treat someone who can't help them back. >> Let's go deep into it. Let's find out so many ideas around this thing because what you said essentially makes a lot of sense, but still we fall into this trap of actually judging people wrong, right? Before we do that, if someone's watching you for the first time, how would you explain what you do? >> [laughter] >> Who you are, what do you do? Like they give them 1 minute pitch.
(05:45) Like I'm a big fan of Adam Grant. >> [laughter] >> I want to hear it from you. >> That's an honor. I'm an organizational psychologist. Uh that means I spend a lot of my career studying how to make work not suck. And I've expanded my focus over time. I'm interested in how we can live more meaningful, more creative, more connected lives.
(06:05) And I try to use social science to help people do that. So, I run randomized controlled experiments, longitudinal studies. I do a lot of synthesizing of data, but I spend a good amount of my time inside of organizations trying to figure out how we can make cultures better, how we can help teams vibe, and ultimately how we can bring bring out the best in everyone.
(06:26) >> But but when you say how can we make teams vibe? Right? Or like how do we make people vibe? That's something interesting to me. Tell me what's happening when you say like when two people click, the moment they meet each other and that there's some spark, there's some click, they vibe with each other.
(06:44) What do you mean by that? What is essentially happening? >> Well, I think of a vibe as the quality of a connection between two people. And it's more than a feeling. Neuroscientists have actually shown that when you have that sense that you're really vibing, your brain waves are synchronizing >> Okay. >> and your heartbeats are synchronizing, too.
(07:03) So, you can trace it in the body, not just experience it in the mind. And I think the telltale signs that you're vibing are time just disappears, right? It It flies. You feel like it's only been a few minutes and hours have passed. Uh your ideas are soaring, your energy is rising, and you kind of you walk away from the interaction feeling like, "Wow, I really miss that person.
(07:24) " >> But what's happening? Like psychologically, what's going on inside my brain? Why do I feel like time's flying? Why do I feel like I want to spend more time with them? Why is Why do I feel synced? Is there some science which is going inside me? >> Well, I think so. I think in in the middle of a vibe, you're probably in a flow state where you have that sense of total absorption, you're not necessarily worried about how you look, you're not paying a lot of attention to what does this person think of me, do they like
(07:50) me, right? You're just absorbed in the moment. And I think that happens when we're on the same wavelength with other people. So, one of the things Raj and I had a lot of fun with while I was researching vibe is I was interested in what does it what does it actually look like to to get to that point where you connect with somebody else.
(08:08) And I found there are actually three different wavelengths around the world that people tend to click on. I've come to call them ally, pal, and companion. So, you I I'm actually really curious if you think about people in your life this way. >> Okay. >> But for me, what's really powerful about this is there there are three paths to a meaningful vibe.
(08:28) So, an ally is somebody who shares your goals. You're on a mission together. >> Okay. >> A pal is somebody who shares your interests. You're having fun together. And a companion is somebody who shares your values. You care deeply about each other. And depending on which which you're trying to build, right? There are very different ways to connect.
(08:45) But we run into problems and I think actually our global loneliness crisis is happening in part because people are on different wavelengths. So, I'm trying to be allies with you, but you just want to be pals with me. And that's a great recipe over time for failing to vibe, but also for disappointment, for expectations being shattered, and and ultimately for a sense of betrayal that you were not the person I wanted you to be, and we didn't even realize that we just had different ideas of what this relationship was all about.
(09:12) >> But how do we find out that you and I we have same ideas? >> Well, one possibility is we could talk about it directly, and I could say, "Hey Raj, I would I would love to be allies with you." And you could say, "No, no, actually not >> [laughter] >> not interested." But I think that we we could also be a little bit more subtle about it.
(09:29) So, I think that the the kinds of conversations we have are different based on our expectations. If I'm trying to be your ally, I'm going to be asking you about what your aspirations are. What are you trying to accomplish this year? What's your biggest challenge? What roadblocks are you running into because I want to figure out how we can succeed together or how I can help you succeed.
(09:50) If I want to be pals, I'm probably asking you about your favorite books, movies, TV shows, songs, right? I'm I'm trying to find something we both enjoy together or maybe a common hobby. I'd start asking you about whether you play cricket or whether you're into padel. And if I wanted to be companions with you, I'm probably showing you a lot more emotional vulnerability.
(10:11) I'm talking about one of my big regrets. I'm opening up to you about the the breakup that I was really struggling with professionally or personally. And if you pay attention to what topics people gravitate toward, right? You can start to to read, "Hey, that person is is trying to connect with me on on the companion wavelength.
(10:30) Okay, do I want that?" >> But is it Like some people might suck at it, right? >> [laughter] >> Sure. >> Yeah, like so So, let's say if I'm talking to someone and I want that person to be my pal, but then I'm just asking them questions which is giving them a hint of that I want to be their ally. Like how do I How do I correct that in the first meeting? >> Yeah, I think in the in the first meeting, what I would do is I would probably start by saying, "Let's Let's just get to know each other a little bit better.
(10:58) Um I'm like I would love to have more fun in my life. What do you do for fun?" I think, you know, a lot of people start and this is one of the things that drives me crazy about America is people define themselves by their work. So, the first question when you meet somebody here is, "What do you do?" And that immediately shuts down a conversation.
(11:17) You ask me what I do and I tell you I'm a psychologist and you might be trading seats on a bus or a train cuz >> [laughter] >> you don't you don't want me in your head. And you might have some image of lying on a couch and I'm not that kind of psychologist, right? But creates a lot of distance between people to start with that conversation about, "Well, what do you do? What I like to ask people instead is what do you love to do? And that's when they open up about their passions and the things that that light them up and that's the beginning of a
(11:42) great pal conversation. >> Do you start your conversation with a stranger with what do you love doing? >> I do now. I didn't used to. But there have been a whole series of experiments showing that we can actually skip the small talk and accelerate our vibe by going right to deep talk. Where I could just ask you, hey, what do you love to do? And sometimes I give a little bit of a preamble for that.
(12:02) I'll say, you know what? I'm just I'm tired of talking to people about the weather. I find the weather endlessly boring. So I would actually love to know something that you care about. Like do you have a new hobby? Do you have something you enjoy doing? Tell me about it. >> Interesting. And Okay, tell tell me the like break it down for me, okay? Tell me top three questions which are great to start in building a vibe and connection and top three questions which are a recipe for a disaster.
(12:29) The worst way to start a conversation with somebody. >> Wow. >> I love like like what do you love to do? It's such a simple question and but a lot of people won't be able to answer because they immediately be like what do I tell? Because they're so occupied in their head that their identity is their work. >> Yeah, I think that's true and a lot of people haven't spent enough time thinking about what they love to do or they're still searching for a passion.
(12:51) So if I were looking for three favorite questions beyond that, I would say Oh, this is this is a fun exercise. I've a I've a long list of favorites that have been tested in experiments with with strangers trying to bond. So my go-to's, I think if I were choosing a top three, I would say number one I probably want to start with some version of tell me about a favorite memory.
(13:14) And what's that's what's I think what's great about the the favorite memory question is you're anchoring people in an in experience they've had. So they don't have to start cycling through like what do I enjoy? What's my hobby? What's my interest? They can just think through, yeah, what's a moment that made me smile or made me laugh or that I think back to often.
(13:33) >> True. >> A A second question that I love is, if you could go back to one point in your life, what would it be? And now you're starting to get into people's experiences around their values. Right? What is something that they really treasure? And would love to have more of in their life. And then a third favorite is, tell me about something you regret that you wish you could redo.
(13:56) And I think the personal vulnerability that that requires seems to be from the research in the sweet spot of it brings out something real about you, but it's not too personal. It's not intrusive >> [clears throat] >> where people say, nope, don't want to talk about that. Let me out of here. >> Yeah, and what would be the worst questions? >> Worst questions.
(14:16) >> They like don't Nobody should start a conversation with these questions. >> I mean, there there's a whole list of, you know, overly intrusive questions that I don't I don't think most people are likely to to run the risk of, but in terms of questions I see regularly that I think are a mistake. I think number one would be, what do you think of the current political situation? Because either it's going to divide people or you're going to end up finding somebody who's also outraged.
(14:43) >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And there may not be a lot you can do about that situation. So, I would not lead with politics. >> Yeah. >> I think a second risky question is to ask people about their religious beliefs because people often feel very strongly about those and again it can divide rather than unite too quickly.
(15:00) And then I think the third category of questions that I would say avoid are just really mundane questions that people are not excited to talk about. I think that anything that's on the surface of a person that, you know, that doesn't define them seems like a little bit of a waste of time. And so I think a common question that I see there that I would I would love to see everyone just cancel from their repertoire is, so what's on your calendar today? Or tell me about your schedule.
(15:26) Like the last thing I want to do is walk you through the boring details of my day. Very few people, even people who have exciting lives, very few moments in their day are actually that interesting to talk about. And so I want to move to the highlights as opposed to the minutia. >> Do you think tell me about yourself is a good question? >> I don't think it's a horrible question.
(15:47) I think it's one that job interviewers sometimes use highly effectively because they want to give you a blank slate and see where you take that. I think for most people, if you're trying to vibe, it's a little too broad. Tell me about yourself. Well, there are a lot of dimensions to me. I don't know where to begin.
(16:02) >> True. >> And so I would rather put some boundaries around that and say, tell me about your personality, or tell me about your hobbies, or even tell me about the dream career that you didn't pursue. >> And why would you do that? Like why would you want to go straight to the deep question because all the top three questions that you told me, they're probably much deeper than what people usually talk about.
(16:29) Why? Is there a specific science behind it? >> Yeah, there is. So when you go to deep talk, a few things tend to happen. One is that you are actually signaling to the other person that you trust them. When you open up, right? When I tell you, hey, you know what? I regret that I didn't study abroad in college. I think that was a mistake.
(16:45) I think it kept me too much in my comfort zone. I was in tunnel vision. I had goals and I was kind of locked into them. And I I think that that was a huge miss for me and I'm trying to make up for that by spending more time traveling in parts of the world that I don't know well. I'm not putting myself out there in a way that you could use that information against me or that I might list one of my biggest regrets in life is I shouldn't have told Raj about my study abroad regrets from college.
(17:12) But I am showing you that I trust you enough to tell you something that still bothers me. That's a decision I made 25 years ago. And that sends a clear message to you that I believe you're somebody worth opening up to. And so that signals, "Hey, I want to bond with you." Second thing that happens is when I go to deep talk, typically you will reciprocate.
(17:33) Right? It's It's actually a violation of social norms. It would be rude to just shut down and put up a wall. And so that then begins the cycle of trust building between us and we can start earning each other's trust. And then the third reason I want to go to deep talk is it's energizing. It's more fun to talk about things that are that are either emotionally evocative or that are personally meaningful.
(17:54) And then we can begin either really getting to know each other or riffing on something that we've we've never talked about before. And I think that a lot of people hear deep talk and they think, "Well, you know, it's it's got to be something that's really profound." No. Like my my oldest daughter has sparked some fantastic conversations with people by asking them, "Do you believe aliens are out there?" or not and why? And people, you know, they just they start having a conversation that they've they've not had before or they've never
(18:23) had that version of this conversation before and they come away thinking, "Wow, I love the questions that I got asked and I want to have more conversations with that person." >> What are you saying that let's say if let's say you and I go to a networking event and we just you ended up making me meet some one of your friend.
(18:41) And the first thing or like the first second or third thing I end up asking them is like, "Hey, do you believe in aliens?" or like, "Tell me about your favorite memory." Is that what you're suggesting? >> It is. Yeah, and I know it sounds a little bit awkward. >> Yeah. >> But a little bit of awkwardness can go a long way toward building a stronger relationship.
(18:57) And the choice that you make to put yourself out there, the worst case scenario is it doesn't land and you failed the vibe. But the alternative of saying, "Well, what do you do? And how's the weather?" That probably wasn't going to work anyway. And so I think the risk is relatively low and the potential reward is high. And the research shows, if you look at the randomized controlled experiments, if people just spend 7 minutes in deep talk, that is enough to accelerate their bond, and it's especially effective for introverts.
(19:25) >> Mhm. And so I go out to a stranger and ask them a deep question even before I ask them, "What do you do?" >> You could. >> But is that what you're suggesting to build a better vibe? >> It's an option. You could also share something about yourself personally and say, "Hey, I'm trying to have more meaningful conversations with the people I meet.
(19:44) " Uh and I wanted to share something with you and then pick one of your topics. Uh and you know, I think this is a lot of trial and error, right? I think that human beings are complicated and we're I think what I'm what I'm trying to what I'm trying to prevent is I I'm thinking about I have a lot of um I I have a lot of students who feel FOMO. Right? The fear of missing out.
(20:09) And there's something worse than FOMO. I call it ROMO. It's the regret of having missed out. FOMO can actually be useful. When you have the fear that you're going to miss something, you start to then take action, right? You're worried that you're going to miss out on meaningful connections, so you go to the party that you were going to go stay home during, or you reach out to the person that you were hesitant to reconnect with.
(20:33) When you feel ROMO, you feel like you missed your window. >> Yeah. >> It's too late. And a lot of people look back on their earlier experiences when you know, when I talk with with leaders, when I talk with friends who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, they look back and they say, "I wish I had been bolder socially.
(20:49) I wish I had put myself out there a little bit more. I wish I had shown the curiosity about other people that I feel, but was kind of blocked by the social scripts and norms that we follow, uh thinking, 'No, you can't bring that up. You have to like you have to dip your toe in the shallow end. You can't dive right into the deep end.
(21:08) ' And what did I have to lose, really? Not as much as I thought. >> Interesting. So let's say I'm a I'm a bad I have this regret, for example, okay? And there are a lot of people who will have this regret, right? And I'm a I'm a bad conversationalist. I won't be able to go out and talk to people and then come back home and then regret that, oh I missed my window, right? And a lot of people would do that.
(21:33) And every time I go talk to somebody or at least few times, I would have messed it up. And because of that, I don't want to go talk to other people. So big So, let's say if I go to someone today and I mess it up in the first 5-10 minutes and there's no chemistry, there's no spark, right? >> Yeah. >> Can I engineer chemistry? >> [laughter] >> If you think about it that scientifically, you might be shooting yourself in the foot.
(22:00) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But are there steps you could take to increase the probability of chemistry? Sure. We can all create conditions that either set a vibe or kill a vibe. >> Okay. >> And I think if you struggle at clicking with people in conversations, the first thing to do is to say, look, not all connections are built face-to-face.
(22:19) A lot of them are created side-by-side, where you and I are doing a common activity together. And that that's actually where a lot of both pal and ally bonds are formed. So, I would think about what are the activities that you could do together. Um I think, you know, watching a a show or a movie that you then talk about afterward is low-hanging fruit for some people.
(22:38) But I would prefer something a little more active. Because what we know from decades of research is emotional intensity accelerates connection. When our hearts are racing together and beating together, that's when we feel like we have a meaningful bond. And so I love I love uh an experiment that was done recently where people are randomly assigned to go to a haunted house together.
(22:58) >> Okay. >> And afterwards, strangers feel closer. Uh and it's not just the jump scare. It's what what happens is they only get closer if they actually debrief the experience afterward. So, they both freak out and then they talk about it and they laugh [clears throat] about it together and they feel like they shared a unique experience together.
(23:18) A lot of people will look at that and say, "Well, we need adversity in order to bond." No, you do not have to go through a horrible hazing ritual like a college fraternity or a sorority would do to bring people closer together. It is not shared suffe- No, let me try that again.
(23:35) It's not shared suffering that brings people closer. It's not adversity, it's intensity. It's the strong emotions that we feel in a unique experience together that we feel changes each of us and also changes our dynamic that ultimately connects us, which is one of the reasons why it's so good to take on physical challenges together.
(23:54) Um, go to a bike ride together that's going to be tough. Go run a race. Um, and what you will find together is sweating together is often social grease. >> Give me an Give me examples of intense intense experiences that'll be great experiences to do with allies to form and with pals and with companions. >> Oh, this is good. Okay, this is fun.
(24:17) So, I think with allies, what I would say is if you're trying to strengthen your ally connection with someone, you want to take on a hard problem or puzzle together. >> Okay. >> It could be a literal puzzle. It could be a jigsaw puzzle or a really difficult LEGO project. >> Okay. >> Uh, but that experience of having to problem solve together is going to it's going to challenge you to use different skills, to rely on each other.
(24:39) Um, maybe you take on, if you're a car person, you say, "Okay, we're going to rebuild a car together or we're going to soup up the engine of a car together." Uh, I think that's that's a great example of something you could do with a potential ally. You could do a quilting or a knitting or a sewing project.
(24:55) Basically, I I the best the best ally bonds come from shared projects. I think if you're trying to be pals, what you want to do is peak fun. >> Mhm. >> I would say go to a comedy show together. I would say watch a hilarious movie. >> Okay. >> I'd say find a favorite sport. Or uh a fi- I I would say go do karaoke together.
(25:15) That is maximum pal fun. >> Yeah. >> And then that could open the door also to companionship [clears throat] because most people are terrible at karaoke. And so the the courage they have to put themselves out there, then you end up kind of laughing at yourselves. But I think there are lots of different ways to create the vulnerability together that allows for companionship.
(25:35) I think certainly um a lot of the questions that we talked about before are relevant. Uh I'll add a few others that are are helpful for if you want to build companionship. I think going into a dynamic where you're with each other's families is a great place to start because >> From the beginning. >> Um I I wouldn't do that maybe on your first meeting.
(25:53) >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But you know, even if you've just if you met a college roommate for example, or if you have a new colleague at work, when they meet your sibling, you're going to get to real vulnerability much faster than if you only hang out with, you know, your college buddies or your um you know, your basically your co-workers in the office because your siblings bring out a side of you that's a little bit more authentic, it's a little more human, it might be a little bit less polished.
(26:23) And you know, that that gives you a sense of the real you. I think you know, over time you visit their hometown, you get to hear about their upbringing, and that can be a real source of companionship. But I think also just just confiding in each other, right? Hey, here's something I'm grappling with personally.
(26:43) Um I'll tell you something that I found really helpful to to talk with people about when when I want to show that I'm willing to be their companion. In high school, one of the the things I discovered was I became the friend that people called when they weren't sure who to call. And the reason I think that happened was because I if if you tell me like I don't I don't want you to solve my problem.
(27:06) I don't want you to fix this. I just need somebody to listen. All of a sudden I become really patient and non-judgmental. >> Mhm. >> And I really enjoy being that person. And so if you know, if if you're having an emotional challenge, please call me. I will not judge you. I will be here to listen to you.
(27:22) That's a conversation I found really helpful to have with people as I'm getting to know them. I've also found that I'm really impatient most of the time and that's not a good message for me to communicate except with a very small number of people in my life. And I think what that signals Raj is something I've seen in in our data that we've collected.
(27:39) People have fewer companions on average than they do allies or pals. >> Mhm. >> But we need a mix of all of those in our lives and something that happens to a lot of us is we end up with one best friend or one romantic partner who basically covers all those bases. So you might have a partner or a buddy who is your best ally, your best pal, and your best companion.
(27:59) And that will bring you closer, but it's also bad for your well-being. >> Mhm. Why is it bad for well-being? >> It's bad for your well-being because you end up putting all your eggs in one basket. And it means that you end up over-relying on one person for everything. They're not always available.
(28:15) They are not always the best at fulfilling each of those roles. I have I have a good friend from college who is an amazing pal. We always have fun together. When I told him that my wife was sick, he said I'm really sorry to hear that and never mentioned it again. And at first I was I was kind of heartbroken. What like why is this guy such a bad friend? And then I realized no, he's not a bad friend.
(28:41) I had him in the companion bucket in my head, but he's a terrible companion for me and he's a a good pal. And I just need to accept and expect that. And now I go to different people when I'm searching for companionship and they are much better suited to provide it. >> Then you talk about companionship, right? Lot of people are horrible at building a connection with somebody who they probably want to date or who they want to build a romantic relationship with and they end up making them pals.
(29:09) >> Yeah. >> Right? Because they don't know how to actually take things forward. So, let let's try to make it simpler for people. Let's say if somebody's going out on a first date, what should they do in the first 30 minutes to build a certain vibe which actually engineers a companion sort of vibe? >> From reading the research on first dates, my biggest surprise from a paper that came out earlier this year, this is this is Finkel and Eastwick and colleagues.
(29:37) What they show is that we actually are as likely to have a good vibe on a Zoom date virtually as we are in person. >> Really? >> Shocking, right? >> How? >> There's a lot of evidence that on Zoom, if you spend a lot of time on it, you don't burn out. Instead, you experience boreout. Which is you're not overstimulated to the point of exhaustion, you're understimulated and you just start to zone out.
(30:03) So, how do you square that with the fact that people actually have a good time on virtual dates? Well, you have to control for how much time they spend because on average, an in-person date will last about twice as long as a virtual date because it's just more energizing. But if you account for the time spent, it turns out that people are just as attracted to each other on virtual dates on average.
(30:22) They're just as likely to feel that they have a vibe and they're just as likely to want to go on a second date afterward. And I think the main reason for that is our expectations are low. We think Zoom is going to be awful and when somebody shows up and we're like, "Wow, I'm actually kind of into that person and I'd love to spend more time with them." We're pleasantly surprised.
(30:40) And so, I I actually say my first recommendation for a first date is don't be afraid to have the virtual conversation. It can save you the awkwardness of the longer bad date in person and also the time you spent getting there. And if you do the initial, you know, 30 minutes and you like them over Zoom, that's then actually momentum for a better in-person second date.
(31:00) And I think that's a great place to start. >> Yeah. That's That's a pretty smart I But I would always think it sounds smart. It It sounds like it'll save a lot of time for a lot of people, but it I would think the other ways, like in real life it would be much more better. Like it'll be much better to actually build a relationship or build a vibe.
(31:21) Like online it'll be horrible. >> I think that we have You have to remember something that that the blogger Tim Urban wrote on Wait, But Why? He said happiness equals reality minus expectations. >> Say that again. Happiness >> Happiness equals reality minus expectations. >> Okay. >> I think in that one equation Tim captured about half a century of social science research.
(31:49) Because what we know from extensive evidence is you don't judge your situation relative to Sorry, let me say that again. What What we know from extensive evidence is we don't judge our circumstances objectively. We compare them to what we wanted. >> Mhm. >> And I'm not saying that the recipe for happiness is having low expectations.
(32:11) What I am saying is in situations where you have low expectations, you can find yourself walking away saying, "Wow, that went better than I thought." And that can be a catalyst for better interactions and better experiences. And so, when your expectations are low, you might as well give it a shot and see how it goes.
(32:32) >> True. Again, sometimes when you vibe with people, okay, in the beginning, when you you do all of these things, you're trying to solve a problem, a puzzle, going to comedy shows, doing all the things that we just spoke about, right? The intensity is high. And you feel an instant vibe, right? Can an instant vibe also be a warning sign? >> Oh, that's interesting.
(32:55) A warning sign of what? >> Like, maybe it's it's just flattery. Maybe it's just >> Mhm. >> uh status [clears throat] and projection. Maybe the other person wants something. It's not really true. >> Oh. Yes. I think that there is the there actually is evidence to point to that possibility. So, psychologists have studied what they call superficial charm, >> Mhm.
(33:17) >> which is kind of the surface charisma that people show, >> Yeah. >> that masks what might be more self-centered values or more Machiavellian intentions. And in fact, psychologists uh have studied what they call the dark triad, which is narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. And if somebody is superficially charming and you have extraordinary chemistry with them, it's possible that you have a narcissist, a psychopath, or a Machiavellian who's manipulating you to either feed their own ego or try to get something from
(33:50) you. But I don't think it's automatically a red flag. Some people are just highly socially skilled or they just have contagious energy. And sometimes we just click with other people because we are in sync and we're on a common wavelength. And so, I wouldn't immediately look at chemistry as a warning sign.
(34:07) What I would say is chemistry is not a precursor for closeness. And just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you're Sorry, let me say that again. Just because you like someone does not mean that they care about you. And just because you like someone does not mean you are going to like working with them. Which is a message to every pair of friends who has ever started a company together.
(34:30) >> [laughter] >> We'll go deep on both of these things. I love what you just said. But I want to ask on that point that you said it's possible that there are going to be superficial charmers and you'll meet them. So, how can you find out that somebody is just manipulating you and not actually vibing and connecting with you? >> Oh, that's such an important question.
(34:49) So, I think we foreshadowed the first one at the beginning of our conversation, which is if you're afraid that you might have a selfish taker who's a really good faker, what you want to do is you want to look at how they treat people that they're not trying to get something from. >> Mhm. >> And if they if they have a better reputation and better relationships with people who are more influential than they are than their peers and subordinates, that is a red flag.
(35:15) That's the first thing I would do. Second thing I might do is I would ask them who their role models are. Who do you admire? And often times people reveal their values through who they look up to. So, if the list of people that they come back with is a bunch of people who are obsessed with only money and power and fame, that's a signal that they themselves have very self-serving values.
(35:40) If they talk about people that they look up to because they're generous, they're curious, they're creative, they're wise, they're humble, you're now seeing that they're more extrinsically or excuse me, you're now seeing that they're more intrinsically motivated rather than extrinsically motivated. You're seeing that they might be more concerned about others as opposed to just out for themselves.
(36:00) I I think you can learn a lot about people from looking at their mo- their role models and that's that's probably a second favorite step. >> But don't [snorts] you think society has conditioned us to look for role models who are highly ambitious and successful and most of them and majority of times they are these power-hungry or like super obsessed people who are out there.
(36:21) Those are the names that come in your head for the first time. >> They might be top of mind, but anybody who takes the time to think about who's my role model is thinking not just about what's the result that I want, but also what kind of person do I want to be. So, when I teach my first class at Wharton, um I have my new students come in and the first question I ask them to answer as a whole group is who is your biggest role model as a leader? Who is the one leader alive or dead that you admire most? And the range in the room is striking.
(36:52) I have heard all the way from Elon Musk to Jacinda Ardern to Martin Luther King Jr. to Mahatma Gandhi and actually a lot of the answers are athletes and sports coaches. And I think, you know, then the question is, well, what do you admire about them? And I want to know, do you admire the, you know, the basically the rewards they've gotten or do you admire the character they've demonstrated? And you can start to see that, right? You can push people on this.
(37:25) You can say, look, you know, there are lots of successful people in the world. Tell me the ones that you would most like to emulate. Who's path would you most love to follow? And that might get a different kind of answer than just the usual suspects of, you know, famous, rich, powerful people. >> Mhm. Who is your role model? >> So, I actually I have a hard time answering this question because I have discovered over time that having met a lot of my role models, they didn't live up to the expectations, right? People say never meet your heroes.
(37:53) >> Yeah. >> I don't think that's true. Some of them have exceeded my expectations, but what I've tried to do is I've tried to get more nuanced and say I have role models for particular virtues. So, it's pretty unlikely, Raj, that there's one person who exemplifies everything I care about. My values include generosity, integrity, excellence, humility, curiosity.
(38:13) One person who's a paragon of all of those probably doesn't exist. I can tell you who my role models are for particular virtues though, if you ask. >> Choose any. Choose any one virtue, one role model, and why. >> Okay, so I'm going to say one one role model I have is Daryl Davis. Daryl Davis is a role model for me of extraordinary generosity and curiosity.
(38:41) I wrote about him in Think Again. He is a jazz musician who has single-handedly talked more than 200 white supremacists out of the Ku Klux Klan, a hate group. And as a black man, he's put himself at extraordinary personal risk to even have these conversations to begin with, and it it should not be his responsibility to do that. But he he ended up meeting this, you know, this really hateful white supremacist at a club that that he was playing jazz at, and he didn't know that the guy was a member of the KKK.
(39:15) And then the guy revealed it to him. He'd never had a conversation with a black man before. And Daryl just asked him this question that he'd been wondering about since he first discovered prejudice when when he was about 10 years old. He said, "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" And the guy got very quiet, and he couldn't answer the question.
(39:35) And that started a a bit of a a friendship, and over a series of months the guy started to rethink his hateful beliefs and ultimately abandoned the Ku Klux Klan, and uh Daryl realized he was onto something. And the patience that he has, the genuine interest in understanding somebody else's views and motivations, I I just think is admirable, and I'd love to see more of that in the world.
(40:00) So, Daryl is is one of my role models for multiple virtues. >> Did that shift something in you? Did you start following that? >> It did. It I I think that, you know, I I had a student once call me a logic bully. >> Okay. >> And my wife had to explain to me that that was not a compliment. >> [laughter] >> What do you I was honestly confused when when Alison explained to me.
(40:23) She's like, "People do not enjoy being hammered with data and facts until they admit how stupid their old views were." I'm like, "Yeah, I've been doing that my whole life. I have been like a prosecuting attorney. If I think you're wrong, I believe it's my professional responsibility and my moral responsibility to correct you.
(40:40) " And that never goes well, right? When I go into prosecutor mode, the other person brings their best defense attorney to court. And then nobody learns anything. And meeting Daryl really has changed the way that that I interact with other people. If I think you're wrong, following his approach and the science of motivational interviewing, I'm less likely now to tell you, "You know, actually, like there's a whole body of evidence that says your beliefs are false and let me enlighten you about that.
(41:06) " I am much more likely to say, "Raj, it's so interesting that you think that. Tell me what evidence would change your mind." >> Mhm. >> That question has been a game-changer for me because when I ask you, "Tell me what evidence would change your mind?" I'm asking you to make two commitments. The first commitment is that there is something that would change your mind.
(41:24) And secondly, you're willing to have this debate in the realm of data. >> Yeah. Interesting. Because we are, let's say, talking about human nature, tell me one thing you were wrong about human nature. >> Oh, I mean, there's like this is my entire education as a psychologist was having to rethink many of my assumptions about human nature.
(41:46) I think one of the biggest ones that I had was I thought that personality was shaped mostly by nurture. By our parents and by our life experiences. And that has just been falsified empirically. Uh I think we dramatically underestimate the effects of nature on our personality. And so I'm an introvert. >> Mhm. >> I I I'm pretty shy.
(42:09) And I thought that that was because of my upbringing. No, it turns out that on average over half of the variance in introversion extraversion is heritable genetically. Um, it's in my biology. You can actually see it in an fMRI scan of my brain. And so, that that really overturned a lot of my thinking because I thought that like the the key to I I chose a career where like if I had At first I was teaching classes, then I was giving TED Talks. I'm doing podcasts.
(42:40) I have to put myself out there a lot. >> Yeah. >> That does not seem like the kind of thing that an introvert could get comfortable doing. And so, I thought intuitively that I had to become more extroverted. Knowing that biologically I have a predisposition to toward introversion, what I know is that personality is my tendency.
(42:58) It is not my destiny. And I can choose to engage in like in this conversation more outgoing behaviors than would be my first instinct. But if I overdo that, I'm going to burn myself out and exhaust myself. And so, I haven't tried to change my personality. I've tried to adapt my personality and say, "I'm going to pick particular weeks a year where I'm on stage.
(43:20) And I'm also going to have weeks where I do not engage with other people outside my family very much." Um, even my teaching schedule is is choreographed so that I do all my teaching in the fall. And then I have January through July to do a lot of thinking, research, data analysis, reading, and writing because I know in my teaching semester I'm just not I'm not on to do the same quality of thinking that I would when I have more freedom.
(43:48) And that that was a, you know, it just turned my whole thinking about how to manage my personality upside down. >> But what made you believe that you're naturally born as, let's say, an introvert and no one can not change that? >> I don't think that it can't change it, but I think we change relative to our own baseline.
(44:06) So, I think the most persuasive data for me were their studies of monozygotic twins. So, these are twins who are identical These are identical twins. They share 100% of their DNA. But, they're separated at birth and raised in different families in different cities, which is terrible for them, but helpful for science. No, it's just sad, actually.
(44:27) All joking aside, it's it's terrible that that ever happens. But, what it does allow psychologists to do is to then look at their adult personalities. And if you look at those twins who were raised in completely different environments, in different homes, they share on average about 50 to 60% of their personality traits.
(44:46) Which is a tremendous amount of overlap. >> Yeah. >> And you know, you you there are some cases that have come out in the data like two two twins who were separated at birth, both became firefighters, both wear a rubber band on their left wrist, and both smash uh a a can of soda on their forehead as a little party trick.
(45:07) What are the odds that they would all They they They were doing the same thing >> Exactly. In two different place, and they didn't even know each other. >> They didn't even know each other, and they were remarkably alike. And so, what that what that tells me is we have an instinct for how to think, feel, and act.
(45:26) But, it's up to us whether we want to override that instinct or not. And I think that this is you know, this is why I say personality is not your destiny, it's just a tendency. And I think what what a lot of people do is they miss they kind of confuse personality and values, and they are not the same. I think your personality is how you show up on a typical day.
(45:46) Your values are how you show up on a hard day. Right? So, when I think about my values, it is easy to be kind and wise and curious when things are going great. The real test of my character and of everyone's character, I think, is how do you treat people when the deck is stacked against you. >> Mhm. >> And I think that for a lot of us, we actually have to override our personality to say, "Look, I didn't choose to be wired this way.
(46:12) I did pick my values. I selected guiding principles that are really important to me, and that's how I want to operate." >> This is I love this. I love that just a random question helped me discover a new thing about just nurture and nature. I would have never thought of this. I don't know why. But it makes so much sense.
(46:31) Tell me Tell me something more about this. Okay, let's say if I have to ask flip this question and ask him tell me something about human nature you wish you didn't know. >> [laughter] >> I mean, here here's a really simple one. I I wish I didn't know that a surprising number of people in a typical population have had a homicidal thought.
(46:57) This is research by a a very provocative and sometimes controversial psychologist, David Buss, where he basically argues that, you know, we we evolved to, you know, if necessary, be ready to kill. And so, when somebody really pushes your buttons, uh you could have a strong aggressive instinct. That's not me.
(47:20) I have never had a homicidal thought. I I probably get actually angry once a decade or so. Um it's just it's not it's not in my constitution, and I don't like I don't like interacting with people thinking there's a possibility that in different circumstances this person might have gotten into such a rage that they could want to do someone severe bodily harm.
(47:43) I I would prefer not to know that. >> Yeah, nobody would like to know that. But is that true? Like is that like proven? >> I mean, it's >> lot of people just like inherently they have these thoughts? >> I think, you know, it's it's hard to really know what anybody thinks and feels, right? But by the best the excuse me, the best methods that we have to to survey and interview people, um I think many psychologists believe it's true, but I I think I can give you a better one uh that I I wish I didn't know.
(48:12) Um Uh here's here's one that actually like it's not so depressing and it'll probably serve your audience better. So, I'm I'm rethinking in real time. Scratch that. I don't know how confident I am in the murderer data anyway. Um here's here's what I would like to unknow right now. I would like to unknow the fact that half of the people you think of as friends do not see you as a friend back.
(48:36) >> No way. >> This is something social sociologists have found repeatedly. >> Half of the people who I think are my friends, they don't think that I'm their friend. >> Correct. On average. >> Okay, explain more. Give me give me tell me more. This is I didn't want to know this. >> [laughter] >> I mean I I didn't either, but I think it has a silver lining. Okay.
(48:55) So, the what sociologists do is in a lot of the studies, they will ask you to list a bunch of people you know. >> Mhm. >> And then they ask you which ones are your friends, which ones aren't. And then they give that list to all the people on it and they say which of these people are your friends and which ones aren't.
(49:11) And on average, half of your friends do not friend you back. >> And why? >> Depressing at first. Why I I think the it's an open question. I think part of it is we are just not always clear on how people think of us. And I think that's a little bit that's sad, right? Part of it though is people have really different definitions of friend.
(49:35) And some people think if we had one good conversation in the last month, we're automatically friends. Others have a much higher bar. And some people are just they're only thinking of companions as their friends. Whereas other people include distant pals. And I think that that can lead to a different answer.
(49:53) Here's the good news about that. That also means that there are a bunch of people that you don't think you're friends with who see you as a friend. And those are opportunities for connection you're probably missing right now. >> How can I find that out? >> I don't know. That's a really good question. How would you find that out? I think the only way to find that out is to put yourself out there, to reach out to some people that you might consider acquaintances, and propose a pal, ally, or companion interaction, and see if they're interested, and see how it goes.
(50:22) >> And how can I find out people who don't think that I'm their [laughter] friend? Because that's also important. >> you want to find that out. I think No, I think the same thing, which is you you propose more interaction, and you see how they react to it. I actually think there's an overlooked group of people that we ought to we ought to be reaching out to that we don't.
(50:41) So, you know the distinction between strong ties and weak ties, right? >> Yeah, go ahead and explain one more time if you like for the audience who's listening for the first time. >> Sure. So, strong ties are are basically the people we interact with regularly and feel close to. They are our go-to allies, our you know, our key companions, our regular pals.
(51:01) Weak ties are the more distant acquaintances. They're somebody that if you desperately needed help, you might call them as an ally, or you might hang out with them if you ran into them in a foreign country, but you wouldn't schedule plans with them as a pal. Um and I think what we know from half a century of research is you are more likely to get useful help ironically from your weak ties than your strong ties.
(51:22) >> Yeah. >> Because your strong ties, despite being available to you, also have a lot of redundant information. They know the same people and the same things that you do. Whereas your weak ties, they travel in different circles, they meet different people, they can learn different things, they can open new doors for you.
(51:37) The problem, Raj, is it's really hard to reach out to a weak tie and say, "Hey, can I help you?" Or even sometimes, "I'd love to hang out." You're putting yourself out there. And I I that, you know, a lot of people just decide it's not worth it. I don't want to ask a weak tie for help. I don't think that, you know, it's my place to ask them to be my ally or companion or they're not going to want to hang out as a pal. So, I'm not going to bother.
(51:58) And that's that's one of the ways we just miss out on a lot of connections. Well, there's another kind of tie that can give you the best of both worlds. Both the the familiarity and trust of your strong ties, but also the new perspectives of your weak ties. Those are called dormant ties. >> Dormant ties. >> Dormant ties.
(52:16) They are the people you used to know. That you've lost touch in the last 2, 5, 8 years. What researchers show is we are too hesitant to reach out to our dormant ties. We are reluctant to contact them because we think, well, those ties are dormant for a reason. But actually most ties are not dormant for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall out of touch.
(52:40) We got busy. We moved. We changed jobs. We had kids. And there is a reservoir of goodwill in the relationships with people you used to know. In the studies, when people reconnect, 90% of the time they find it enjoyable. Not only is it enjoyable, but you actually end up getting better help from your dormant ties, the people you used to know, than the people you currently know.
(53:08) So, you can see this in studies uh with with people in their jobs. If you randomly assign executives, for example, to reach out to a dormant tie and get advice on a project, they actually get better help, better information than a current contact advising them on that same project. And the dormant tie is giving them, "Hey, here's something, you know, I've I've got a whole viewpoint that you haven't accessed in the last, you know, 7 years since we talked.
(53:32) " And I think for me what that raises is the big question of how can we get better at reconnecting? How do you reactivate these dormant ties that that maybe you've lost touch with? How do you do that, Raj? >> How Oh, I was going to ask you how to do that. But I am pretty So, I read this strong ties and weak ties concept from you only.
(53:51) Like, I think somewhere I read it or I heard it from you. And I'm pretty okay in reconnecting with my old connection which I've lost touch with. I instantly think about, let's say, 20 things that I'm going through and if I think that two things uh on these two things somebody from my old tie can help me, I just text them and tell them that this is what I'm going through and you were the first person who came in my mind.
(54:18) I don't know where you are at in your life, but I would love to have a conversation with you. >> Wow, I love it. So, you don't hesitate? >> Not at all. I'm I'm very I find it very natural to just like talk to people and ask them for help and always be there for them when they need help. >> That's I I think that's a really important distinction because a lot of people are worried that if they reach out and ask for help, they're going to get seen as a taker.
(54:44) And they say, "I don't want to be a taker. I want to be a giver." And I When I hear that, I say, "Great. Why don't you reach out to somebody that you lost touch with and say, 'Hey, I would love to find out what's going on in your life and how I can be helpful?'" >> Yeah. >> Something I mean, there's no reason why you can't offer to be supportive as opposed to just seeking help.
(55:00) And that that makes it much less transactional. So, I think that's a that's a good approach. I think other ways um my my favorite habits are I'm coming into your city. Um you know, I'm I'm going to be in town. I would love to get together. Only I have too many dormant ties in my life now. I teach a lot of students every year.
(55:19) Um I think I've I've had the good fortune of, you know, of I guess being involved in lots of different worlds and I never have enough time to see people when I'm traveling. So, what I've started doing lately is I'll reach out to anywhere between 5 and and maybe 15 people that I miss.
(55:36) And I'll say, "Hey, I'm coming to town. I would love to get together with a group of my favorite people for dinner, and you're one of them." >> [snorts] >> And then what happens is we have this great experience of not only catching up with each other, but I also get to connect them to other people that I think they would they would enjoy.
(55:51) And so that is a contribution to their lives. >> Nice. >> And then something happens afterward, which is inevitably, a few weeks later, I will hear from a pair of them or a trio of them saying, "Hey, we've actually really hit it off, and now that gives me an excuse to to be more part of their lives, and I feel like, you know, I I get the joy of making the connection, but also it helps me stay connected, and I don't have to then reconnect every time I go back to their place.
(56:19) " >> Nice. You know, something like this I do, like a version of this. It's >> Tell me. >> It's I also, because of my work, I happen to know like a lot of people, and I've lost touch with them, right? So what I do is, if I'm traveling, if I'm going somewhere, and instantly I think of somebody or something, like just maybe, let's say, talking to you reminded me of Ian, for example, right? Instantly after this conversation, I'm just going to text them and be like, "Hey, you know what? This reminded me of you, and I know that we've haven't talked in a
(56:49) while. I hope that you're doing good in your life. If there's anything that I can I I can help you with, please let me know, and I would love to catch up if you're here in the city." >> Boom. What you just did right there is called pebbling. >> Pebbling? >> Pebbling is my favorite way to both strengthen a bond with somebody you don't know well, but also reconnect with somebody that you've fallen out of contact with.
(57:10) >> Okay. What is pebbling? Explain it. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, it it's not intuitive at all. So the term the term originally comes from a a ritual, a courting ritual among penguins. Some penguins, when they're trying to impress a mate, they'll present Actually, when they're trying to impress a potential mate, they collect um they go and collect smooth stones, and then they present them, which is basically showing, "Hey, I'm suitable as a mate.
(57:38) I can use these to build a nest with you." And, you know, nobody's gotten inside a penguin's head to know that they're that's actually what they're thinking, right? But, the ritual is penguins are going and finding a little pebble. They're presenting it to a potential partner, and it's a catalyst for a bond. I think the modern digital equivalent of that penguin ritual of pebbling is sending somebody an article, a meme, a reel, a link, something that reminded you of them.
(58:08) And there have been multiple studies now showing that when you reach out to somebody, either that you just met or somebody you haven't been in touch with in a while, and you say, "Hey, I read this article. I think you would love it." Or I watched this reel, it cracked me up. I know you'll find it hilarious.
(58:25) That actually brings you closer together because [clears throat] they're surprised that you thought of them. Right? Every single pebble that you send is a bid for connection. Each pebble is a bid for connection. Every pebble is a little gesture of care. And I think it's important to clarify, Raj, that you are not spamming them with random junk you found on the internet, right? You're You're taking the time to pick out something that was actually personalized to them.
(58:52) And that's a memory flex. You are proving that you paid attention to what they cared about, what they find interesting. Maybe you remembered a common experience or an offhand comment they made to you. I'll give you a small example of this. I I reconnected with a college friend after literally a decade of no interaction.
(59:10) And in our first email exchange, she remembered my favorite movie. And I couldn't believe it. I didn't even remember that I told her what my favorite movie was. And that said to me, "Wow, this is somebody who really takes the time to notice what matters to me. And this is somebody who who cared about our connection even when we were out of touch.
(59:28) >> Interesting. You know, this is a great way of doing things. But tell me what I do, is that wrong? Because sometimes I don't even know like I don't remember details about let's say some connection. And I would admit that in that text. I would upfront be like, "Hey, you know, I've forgotten everything about this.
(59:53) I don't even know, but this particular thing reminded me a few, so just I would love to you know, maybe get in touch again or if there's anything I can help you with, let me know. Like I'm I'm admitting upfront that hey, I've forgotten half of the things that we did together." >> I don't I don't have any problem with that.
(1:00:11) I think in general, we tend to judge people um well, no. I guess I guess what I would say on that is I think first of all, that admission is probably a little bit endearing. It's an unexpected moment of vulnerability and authenticity. And it's also coupled with you having thought of them. Right? And the fact that you thought of them, that's what really counts.
(1:00:34) You don't have to have memorized >> everything you've ever shared with everybody, yeah. >> No, no, [laughter] but a little detail, right? You don't even have to remember a single conversation you had with them. If you remember their taste, their preferences, their curiosity, their goals, right? You had to have a little bit of a sense of them in order to say, "Hey, I thought of this for you.
(1:00:58) " And if you didn't totally miss the mark, that is still a meaningful gesture. >> Mhm. True. You know, there's one more thing, like when you talk to people and when you build connection in the first go, right? There's something called instinct. You instinctively know that this person is not right for you. Right? And sometimes you're right about it, but sometimes you're wrong about it.
(1:01:19) >> Yep. >> So, how to know when to trust my instinct and when to not trust my instinct. >> That's a hard question. It's much more art than science, I think, person-to-person, interaction-to-interaction. I think the first thing to know though is that some of the people that we end up liking most are the people we started out disliking.
(1:01:39) >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in psychology and >> The people who I dislike in the beginning, I ended up liking them more. >> Some of our Yeah, some of our favorite people in our lives, our go-to pals, our most reliable companions and allies, are people we started out kind of disliking. >> Why and how? >> Okay, so [laughter] the why is that we saw them in one context and that context brought out aspects of each of us that clashed.
(1:02:09) And you know, I think you can see this and there's some really easy, familiar examples. Uh Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova did not get along on the tennis court. They were rivals. Uh and they were famously they had a pretty icy relationship. So, they clashed in that context, but then they retire from tennis and all of a sudden they realize there are not many other people on Earth who have lived what we lived.
(1:02:34) And they also end up having some shared experiences. They both become venture capitalists and they start investing. They also both become mothers and they have, you know, having children in common and all of a sudden they're not, you know, directly pitted against each other and they realize we actually have a lot of reasons to to get along.
(1:02:53) Larry Page and Sergey Brin uh the two of them met at an orientation at Excuse me, they met at a a Stanford orientation for computer science grad students and they found each other annoying and obnoxious and they were kind of both know-it-alls. And then they get into the computer lab and they realize that in that context they both are frustrated with how inefficient search engines are and they end up building Google together.
(1:03:21) And you know, again, they met in one setting where they were each trying to be the smartest person in their class or the most you know, to have the right answer in that interaction and they you know, they were basically their their incentives were to compete. When they had a reason to cooperate, a different side of them came out.
(1:03:41) And Okay, so that's that's the why is personality is not just a set of tendencies that we carry with us across situations. It's also a dynamic set of if-then signatures. That's what psychologists call them. Um, I think the easiest illustration of this is uh, I have um, I have a colleague who I have a really hard time knowing whether he is going to be friendly or whether he's going to be antagonistic.
(1:04:08) >> Yeah. >> And what I discovered over time was he's actually an authoritarian. Um, if you've ever watched the American Office, he's like Dwight Schrute. Uh, you haven't seen it. Okay. >> So, basically the pattern of authoritarian, excuse me, the pattern of authoritarianism is you are deferential and submissive with your superiors, but then you are very controlling and dominant with your subordinates.
(1:04:34) And so, if you meet this colleague of mine and you have power, you will think that he's the most cooperative, easy-going person you've ever met. If you lack power, you will if you will think he's a micromanager, he's a slave driver and you'll see a very different side of him. And that's a different if bringing out a different then.
(1:04:54) So, I think the way you apply this, do you know um, the Narnia and Lord of the Rings books and movies? >> Yeah. >> Okay, so C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote those, uh, they they basically made each other's careers because they were Oxford professors, uh, lecturers and they they they kind of were doing fiction on the side as a hobby, but they weren't intending to make a career out of publishing it.
(1:05:22) And they encouraged each other, they gave each other constructive criticism, they started a book club, and they actually developed their manuscripts side by side. And so, if the two of them hadn't bonded, we would not have Narnia or The Lord of the Rings. What's so interesting about their relationship is they could not stand each other when they first met in the 1920s.
(1:05:39) [clears throat] The two of them met at a faculty meeting, and they immediately clashed. Um, Tolkien insulted Lewis's favorite novel, and Lewis wrote in his diary that night that he needs a smack or so. Like, somebody needs to slap him. He disliked him so much. They show up at faculty meetings for months and months, and they are on opposite sides of a heated debate about whether the English curriculum should prioritize contemporary or classic material, and they are basically fighting every time they interact.
(1:06:10) And that could have been the end of their relationship. And yet, >> [snorts] >> Tolkien ended up starting a a little club to talk about, um, Icelandic mythology. And C. S. Lewis liked He liked Norse myths. And, um, he was like, "You know what? I'm a fan of Norse mythology. I'm going to show up, even though that that Anglo-Saxon Professor Tolkien that I I really dislike is running it.
(1:06:34) " And they ended up just getting into a a different kind of conversation about Asgard and Thor and the giants, and they they were actually up from 11:30 p.m. to 2:30 a.m. having this great conversation about Norse mythology. Within a year of that conversation, they were best friends, and they were starting to encourage each other to become fantasy novelists.
(1:06:55) And I think one of the reasons that a relationship like that can start off on the wrong foot and then get onto the right foot is they had to change their context to find a reason to come together. But then, they also had to work really hard to overcome the initial feelings of animosity they had toward each other.
(1:07:14) And that's a lot of cognitive dissonance of, "Wow, I really didn't like that guy. But you know what? I'm kind of enjoying hanging out with him." I have to work hard now. You have to work hard to convince yourself that he's not as bad as you thought. And the effort we put in to changing our own minds actually can crystallize and solidify those bonds into something much stronger.
(1:07:36) >> So should I not trust myself if I like someone? >> [laughter] >> Or should I not trust myself if I dislike someone? >> Well, this this goes back I think to your original question of how do you know when to trust your intuition or not? And I think what I would say is we should be careful about snap judgments because you are actually not getting the other person's vibe.
(1:07:57) You are getting the dynamic between the two of you in a particular setting. And so what I want to know is what happens when you interact in different environments, around different topics, or do different activities together. >> Mhm. >> Um the the snap judgment is your first impression. It's a narrow slice of the person. I want to see the full range.
(1:08:16) I want to watch them shapeshift and see all the different if-thens that they're capable of. And you're not going to try that with every person. >> Yeah. >> But if you meet somebody and you don't like them initially, instead of writing them off altogether, which closes you off to the possibility of connecting, I would say, "Okay, let's be really clear about what behaviors I didn't like of that person and when I saw them.
(1:08:38) And now let me just keep observing as I run into them more and see if there's a shift." >> So tell me if we have to make it simpler for people, if we make let's say three boxes in this. Someone I like, someone I trust, and someone who's good for me. What will be the signs? How do I find out? Because what we are essentially saying we are com- we are coming back to these three things.
(1:09:02) And they both and all three of them look different to me after this conversation. Earlier it used to be like, oh, I like this person. I should trust this person and he or she must be good for me. But right now they're all three different things. >> Yeah. >> Right? So can we like should I give you like a piece of paper or like a whiteboard to draw three things here? Perfect.
(1:09:23) >> You're going to have to suffer through my handwriting now, but I'll try. >> I'm good. >> All right, here we go. So we want like, trust, and benefit from. Right? >> Yeah, someone who's good for me. So benefit is that, yeah. >> Yep, okay. So the person you like, I think the easiest signal of that is going to be a pal.
(1:09:48) I think you're going to you're just going to feel joy and energy in the interaction and the clearest sign that you like somebody is you laugh together. Uh so laughing is the most basic, I think. >> Okay, nice. Yeah. >> Um I think when it comes to trust, I think that we're we're probably talking about um an ally is the person that you often will will trust.
(1:10:18) And that is probably I'm looking there for responsiveness. >> Responsiveness. Explain more. >> I think the most important form of trust is reliability. And that's more than having good intentions. It's actually having the integrity to follow through on your intentions. And so that is when you have a problem, you know this person will drop everything to help you solve it if it's a big deal.
(1:10:42) And you also know that when this person makes a commitment, they're not going to back out at the last minute. >> Mhm. >> And so I think that that responsiveness of, you know what, they might go weeks without responding to your random pebble text, but when you say, hey, I could really use your help, they are there.
(1:11:00) >> Mhm. So, the how fast are they responding to the time when you need the help? >> Exactly. Yeah, are they are they reliable in a in a time of both in Yeah, exactly. Are they reliable in a time of need? And then I think the the greatest benefit long-term comes from companions. And I think the reason for that is these are the people you open up to the most.
(1:11:20) They see kind of they see all of your shortcomings, your flaws, your foibles, your insecurities, and they are in the best position to help you grow in the long term. And I think the signal that somebody is a great companion is tough love. >> [gasps] >> You're looking for the person who tells you that you have broccoli in your teeth.
(1:11:40) Who says, you know what? I feel a little uncomfortable pointing this out, but you know what's even more uncomfortable than me telling you you have food in your teeth is me not telling you and letting you embarrass yourself in front of the next eight people that you meet. They are the people who would tell you the things you don't want to hear, but you desperately need to hear.
(1:11:59) >> Yeah. >> And I don't think we spend enough time looking at tough love as a signal of companionship. If somebody takes the time to tell you a hard truth, it usually means that they believe in your potential, they care about your well-being and your success, and the relationship is important enough to them that they are making an investment in saying something that is not easy to to communicate, um but they're doing it because they either want to help you or they believe that it's their responsibility to say it to you if other
(1:12:32) people aren't. >> True. I have one one follow-up on both of these. >> Yeah, tell me. >> So, trust. Can we trust people who we don't like? >> Yes. We often end up trusting people we don't like. >> Why? >> Because I think that this goes back to the point that you might like someone, but you don't like working with them.
(1:12:53) And the reason for that is you might have complementary skills, and they're really good at helping you achieve your goals, but your personalities are diametrically opposed, or you even have some values that clash. >> Mhm. >> The reverse can be true, too. You can trust people you don't like. Uh they might be actually Abraham Lincoln is a great example of this.
(1:13:17) Uh Lincoln uh you know about his team of rivals? >> No. >> Okay, so Lincoln, I think most historians and political scientists agree that he was the greatest American president. Lincoln is such an interesting example because after he got elected to the presidency, he asked his political opponents to join his cabinet. I wish we had politicians doing that today.
(1:13:37) And Lincoln understood that the people who disagreed with him made him better. >> Mhm. >> One of the the allies uh in his cabinet was Edwin Stanton. Edwin Stanton >> [clears throat] >> was basically everyone's least favorite person. Um he had no sense of humor. He complained when Lincoln cracked a joke. Uh he was not the guy that you want to have drinks with after work.
(1:14:02) And Lincoln understood that. He did not like the guy at all, uh but he also knew that he was an extremely steadfast and loyal person. He knew that this guy was tenacious. He was full of grit, and he made him his war secretary because he knew that was the person he could count on actually to try and prevent a civil war.
(1:14:24) And he also had the good sense to not have interactions outside of work with him because he recognized Stanton was an amazing ally once their goals were aligned, but he was not pal material. And I think this goes to the more general point. Um I got to see this up close when I studied astronauts and cosmonauts at NASA.
(1:14:45) I studied a crew of it was an American, an Italian, and a Russian. And it's going to sound like a bad joke because of that. [laughter] Yeah, an American, a Russian, and an Italian walk into outer space. >> Yeah. >> But this true this crew it was it was a crew of three people who clash in all kinds of different ways. And they had to learn to trust each other even though they didn't like each other.
(1:15:08) And what they learned was that trust was not about saying, you know what, we're going to have fun interactions all the time. It was not about saying, we want to we want to be in each other's lives when we're not on the International Space Station together. It was about saying, we have a mission to accomplish together. And I recognize that you are the most capable qualified person to do this mission with me.
(1:15:30) And I also recognize that you are so committed to the mission that I am willing to put my life in your hands. And I think this is something people often fail to understand is when you're working with with somebody in a group or a team, you don't actually need to bond within the group. You need to bond together to the group.
(1:15:50) And this is something psychologists have shown in data from thousands and thousands of people, dozens of studies. It's called task cohesion versus social cohesion. So task cohesion is we're aligned around a goal. Social cohesion is we sing Kumbaya and we're aligned around wanting to hang out together. And it turns out if you want to predict a team's effectiveness, task cohesion is more important than social cohesion.
(1:16:15) We do not need to agree with each other to be aligned with each other. We do not need to like each other to work well together. >> But how do I trust somebody I don't like? I know that let's say this person is capable. >> Yep. >> And I know this person can help me get better. But my judgment that I don't like him >> Yep.
(1:16:40) >> prevents me and stops me to trust him. So how do I trust this person? What are the signs? Like what should I look for? Is it that is he or she equally motivated to achieve that goal or no? Because at the back of my head maybe that person is the most capable person but I think that my that person might stab me because that person also doesn't like me.
(1:17:03) >> Yeah. So I think goal alignment is the beginning. You need to look at whether you share a commitment to a common mission. And I think beyond that, the mistake that a lot of people make is they're trying to gauge compatibility and they're saying, "Okay, what do we have enough in common up front in terms of our goals and our values to be able to to work effectively together?" That's the wrong question.
(1:17:27) Compatibility is rarely something you discover in your first interaction. It's something you develop through repeated interactions. So what I would be looking for is how can I create a set of shared experiences that allow us to build up the level of trust and earn it to each other, to prove it to each other. Um I would I what I would say let me let me give you the astronaut example cuz I think it's it's really vivid.
(1:17:49) So if you look at what NASA did, they had a really hard time getting this initial crew to come together and to to really believe they could trust each other. And they ended up sending them to the wilderness to to get lost in the mountains. They had a an outdoor leadership guide who basically said, "Good luck.
(1:18:08) " and left them on their own. And they had to solve hard problems together. They had to figure out where they were going to camp when it was freezing at night. They had to figure out how they're going to find food. And through doing that, you see the best and the worst of each person. And that allows you to get much more nuanced about trust.
(1:18:25) I think this is a big mistake that people make when they assess trust. They ask, "Can I trust you?" That's the wrong question. The right question is, "What can I trust you to do?" >> Mhm. >> Raj, can I trust you to ask thoughtful questions as a podcaster? >> Yes. >> Yeah, that was really easy for me to vet.
(1:18:44) I can I can pull up a lot of conversations you've had on YouTube. I can also ask a bunch of former guests of yours that I know. And that's that's clear, right? Can I trust you to make a good dinner? I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Can I trust you to navigate New York City if I get lost? Don't know. Right? So, the question is not do I trust you, it's when do I trust you? >> The context.
(1:19:05) >> Can I trust you with? It goes back to context. So, I think what you want to do, if you're trying to develop trustworthiness, if you're trying to earn somebody's trust, or build a collaboration where you have trust, what you want to do is interact with them in a range of challenging situations, so that you can see where are they capable and reliable, and where are they not.
(1:19:23) Um I've I've tried to explain this to my collaborators and just give them a a shortcut on this. So, I I actually I learned this from some leaders I was working with. You know how when you you get a a new piece of technology, it comes with the user uh sorry. You know how when you you get a new phone, or a TV, or a computer, it comes with a user manual? And it gives you instructions for how to operate it, and how to troubleshoot it? Well, the advice I got was to create my own user manual.
(1:19:51) Because humans are at least as complex as machines. I would hope more so. And I asked a bunch of my collaborators to write out a one-page document for what they wish they knew about me when we first met. And I started giving that then to new people I was working with, to say, "Look, you might want to know that I will respond extremely quickly um to any important message I get most of the time.
(1:20:18) I will be extremely slow if you send me anything that's not urgent or important when I'm working on a big creative project, like a book." And I didn't even realize that was that was a pattern of mine, but it was an if-then signature that one of my my colleagues pointed out. And all of a sudden, for the rest of my team to know that, means they will they will be much more proactive in, you know, calling me, emailing me, texting me if I'm in the middle in the middle of book writing because my normal responsiveness kind of falls falls by the wayside. Um in that
(1:20:49) document is also a description of how I run 5 to 10 minutes late, sometimes a little bit more, for anything that has a slightly flexible start time. But if the timing is important and there's an audience of people waiting for me, like a class or I'm giving a keynote speech, I will do my best to be early.
(1:21:11) And right, knowing that allows you then to know when you can trust me and when you can't. >> Mhm. Interesting. [clears throat] Help me this, okay? So, let's let's let's make this as a user manual. We help everyone who's watching this build their own user manual so that they can hand that out to the people they are working with or they're going to collaborate with.
(1:21:31) What are the questions or the things they should include in their user manual? Like give me the list. >> Okay, so we'll we'll start with the with the strength side. Uh this comes from research that my colleagues did at the University of Michigan on what they call the reflected best self portrait. And the idea is that we all have strengths that are invisible to us, just like we have weaknesses that that are sometimes called blind spots.
(1:21:52) And the best way to know your your invisible strengths is to ask the people around you, who am I when I'm at my best? So, that's the first question I would start with is, tell me about a time when I was at my best. And don't just describe the strength, tell me the situation where I used it so I can figure out the context where it's relevant.
(1:22:10) And I'm going to ask a bunch of people that. And the strengths that are going to be the center of my user manual are the ones that multiple people mention that also carry across different contexts. >> Interesting. So, that's the first question. >> That's the first question. The second question is, tell me something that I should not be trusted to do.
(1:22:28) Tell me something that you would not count on me for. Sometimes people are a little hesitant to answer that question. So, a variation that a former student gave me that I love is, "Tell me something positive that I am not." >> [laughter] >> And people are are pretty forthcoming on that.
(1:22:45) And again, you take that information and the the more it triangulates across people who know you in different parts of your life. If you get the same feedback from a pal, an ally, or and a companion, or from a family member, a friend, and a colleague, you know that is a pervasive strength or a real shortcoming of yours. >> Okay. That's second.
(1:23:04) Just two questions? >> I think that's all you need. And you need a big enough sample of people that you're getting consistent answers. So, I would I would say a good user manual is not built by talking to two or three people. It's built by talking to eight or 10 people, maybe even 15 or 20. >> Got it. So, let's flip it.
(1:23:20) Let's say because you're talking about can we trust people Should we trust people who we don't like? Can we like people who we can't trust? >> Definitely. >> Yeah. >> And we should not trust them. >> No, I mean that I think in a lot of cases that's the superficial charm we were talking about earlier. >> Mhm. >> It's also potentially a pal who is the ideal person >> Mhm.
(1:23:43) >> to plan your bachelor or bachelorette party, but you do you can't count on them to be in your wedding party. You don't want them uh knowing your all your secrets. You don't want them uh running uh business with you. >> Yeah. >> Watch out. >> Mhm. And why would you say that? Because if I know somebody and they know all my secrets, probably I trust them with certain things, right? >> Maybe.
(1:24:11) Or maybe you hung around with them in situations where they Yeah, exactly. >> [laughter] >> Exactly. They they happened to observe They've They've had They've gotten access to a lot of data about you. >> Mhm. >> Uh they saw you in vulnerable situations a lot and I I just think at the end of the day what you really want to know about people is you know not not do we have the same personalities but are we aligned on core values? >> Yeah.
(1:24:39) Um alignment on core values is very difficult to find out. >> It can be. I think one of the the mistakes people make is they talk about values in the abstract and I I I made this mistake earlier right? I said I value generosity, integrity, excellence, curiosity, humility, right? And I think those are those are decent shorthand for telling you here are the planets that you know that that I would I would choose to live on if I were going to highlight my top priorities in a word each.
(1:25:07) But then we need to do the extra work of breaking down what are the behaviors that I believe are core to to living a life of generosity. What are the key behaviors that violate my standards of generosity? And that's often where you and I might be misaligned. So one person says for me generosity is all about respecting people's time.
(1:25:26) And that means if you're late you are unkind and if you're early you are caring. And I look at that and say absolutely not. Generosity is being understanding that you know people have flexible timelines and not judging them for that. For me about generosity the core of generosity is are you willing to help people with no strings attached? And do you spend a lot of your time helping people who you expect to never reciprocate? Are you a pay it forward person as opposed to pay it back person? And if you and I don't have that conversation we could both say we value
(1:26:00) generosity and not actually be on the same page at all. >> Are you a pay it forward person? >> I aspire to be one but you'd have to ask the people in my life whether I succeed in living by those values. >> But do you think that you are that person? I'm just asking. >> I I I would like to believe yes. >> Is it even even I am like that.
(1:26:18) >> [laughter] >> I would also like to believe that because I think it's a much better way of living than pay it back living. It's just a belief that I have. Maybe I'm wrong. >> Well, I can I can back it up with evidence. So, I will I will give you some data to support your belief. The problem with a pay it back mentality, I I I wrote about this in Give and Take, uh is basically, if you are always um operating on a you know, I'll do something for you if you do something for me basis of trading favors.
(1:26:47) When you need help, you can only go to the people that you've supported in the in the past or you expect to be able to help in the future. And that actually limits you to a relatively narrow network. If you build a a whole web of relationships around the pay it forward philosophy, when you need help, you can go to anybody.
(1:27:06) You can reach out to a dormant tie, a weak tie, a total stranger who's part of your community or who belongs to your network because you know that everybody is agreeing to pay it forward. And sociologists have called that generalized reciprocity. Direct reciprocity is I'll do something for you if you do something for me.
(1:27:25) Generalized reciprocity is I'll do something for you knowing that I am investing in you doing something for someone else and that's going to create a an an ecosystem with more generosity and that means everyone can get more of the help that they need. >> Why are some people like that? Why are some people like they love to pay it forward and they don't expect anything back from you.
(1:27:47) And there are some people who will always expect something back from you. >> Yeah, I think why are people like that? That's a that's an that's a really good existential question. I don't know. I think there's there's probably to our earlier personality discussion, there's probably >> nature >> there there is a probably a biological predisposition on that, but I think there's a learned component in that as well, which is some people have learned that, you know, they've learned the hard way through experience or you know, through some
(1:28:17) very strong early role models that if you don't look out for yourself and put me first in a dog-eat-dog competitive world, [clears throat] then you're going to get exploited and taken advantage of. >> [gasps] >> And other people have been taught, which I think is a is a more successful way to live your life in the long run.
(1:28:33) It's also a more rewarding way to live your life in the long run. They have been taught that, you know, what? If you If you help other people with no strings attached, every once in a while somebody will take advantage of you. But most of the time, you're making a meaningful investment in a relationship and you are also encouraging other people to engage in generous behavior and you're planting that seed.
(1:28:56) And over time, if you operate that way, you can figure out how to help people with no strings attached in ways that don't cost you too much. Um the entrepreneur Adam Rifkin calls it a five-minute favor. He says you should be willing to do a five-minute favor for anyone. Uh it might be a microloan of your time to give somebody a little bit of feedback or coaching or advice.
(1:29:18) It might be a quick introduction between two people who have agreed they could benefit from knowing each other. And even just taking the time to write somebody a thank you note for something they did for you or for someone else to say, "Hey, I noticed." That mattered. Costs you very little. There's not a lot that someone can do to hurt you.
(1:29:36) It may be high benefit to them. And if you spend a lot of time in those in those five-minute favors, that's a way to test is this person going to pay it back or pay it forward? And if so, then you can take a little bit more risk in the way that you show up for them. >> True. And when you do this a lot, I believe you end up converting a lot of paid back people into paid forward as well.
(1:29:57) >> Yes, I think that's exactly the hope. And I don't think that people shouldn't also have the instinct to pay it back, right? I think that if you have a relationship where one person is always taking and the other is always giving. That's actually not a relationship. That is a charade.
(1:30:13) That is one person using the other person. >> Yeah. >> But I think there are some relationships that are naturally unbalanced. I think that a mentor or mentee relationship, the mentor should be giving more than the mentee is is giving. Uh but there should be also some ways that the mentor learns from the the mentee. >> Mhm. >> And I think that you know that ultimately we need people to we need people to both be willing to help unconditionally and also say I don't want to have a relationship where I am always the receiver and never the giver.
(1:30:44) >> You know when there's relationship, right? There's the relationship between two people. Uh when there's either in an office with the colleague, mentor, mentee, personal relationship, whatever, right? Do you believe that healthy amount of disagreement and fights actually gets them closer? >> Yeah, they can. Okay, so let's go to chapter six of vibe.
(1:31:06) >> Okay. >> I covered a whole series of studies showing that so this is the this is the the tough love factor. >> So we come back. Like do you want to explain it on the board or you you okay with just whatever? Explain me. What do you think? >> Well, we'll we'll find out if it's helpful.
(1:31:22) Yeah, actually I will I will I will explain it on the board. >> Perfect. >> So I think that most people basically believe this. I think most people think in order to have healthy conflict, to give tough love, to have a difficult conversation, uh to you know to have any kind of confrontation, you need to build trust and become close to someone first.
(1:31:51) And there is some truth to that. But what we overlook is that healthy conflict can also enhance trust and bring us closer together. And I love there have been now a dozen experiments that have shown that if you were randomly assigned to pick someone in your life, it could be a friend, a family member, a colleague, and tell them a truth that you might be hesitant to to raise with them.
(1:32:20) Two weeks later, you both report that you are closer than you were before. It is surprisingly easy to hear a hard truth from someone who is is making that investment in trying to help you grow. And I think the mistake we make, the reason we have so much unhealthy conflict, is we wait until the issue blows up, and then we attack and we put the other person on the defensive.
(1:32:47) And what we should be doing instead is recognizing it's not actually the message that causes most healthy conflict, excuse me. It's not actually the message that causes harmful conflict. It's our perceptions of the intentions and motives of the messenger. >> Were you trying to tell me that there's some amount of conflict which is making a relationship stronger, and then there's some amount which makes it toxic? >> It's not the amount, it's the type.
(1:33:13) >> It's the type. So, what type of fight is making a relationship toxic, and what type is making a relationship stronger? >> Okay, so the in the research it's called task conflict versus relationship conflict. >> Okay. >> Task conflict is you and I are disagreeing about decisions, goals, vision, strategy if we work together.
(1:33:34) Um if we're if we're pals or companions, we're disagreeing about what restaurant to go to or what movie to watch or where to go on vacation together. And that's good because you and I might have different opinions or different preferences. We also might have compatible preferences that neither of us voiced.
(1:33:50) And if you say, "I don't want to see a rom-com," and I say, "I don't want to hear excuse me, and I say Let me try that again. If you say, "I don't want to see a rom-com," and I say, "I don't want to see another superhero movie. Then we would say, what Allison? We just We discover we both love sci-fi. And so that's good, right? We want to have that disagreement.
(1:34:07) That's a task conflict. Where it becomes toxic is when it's relationship conflict. Which is Okay, you don't like rom-coms? Well, I don't like you. And also you smell bad. Right? Where [laughter] it starts to get personal, emotional, and it's not about the issue. It's It's about you versus me. I am judging you. I think there's something wrong with you.
(1:34:29) >> Mhm. So >> Question is, how do you surface a healthy conflict? >> Yeah. >> How do you give somebody tough love? My favorite experiment on this, this is David Yeager and his colleagues, shows that you can say 19 words and dramatically increase people's openness to constructive criticism. >> Okay.
(1:34:47) What are those 19 words? >> 19 words. Don't count them. I might give you 20 or or 18. >> Okay. >> But in their experiments, what they show is if you just say roughly, I'm giving you these comments cuz I have very high expectations and and I'm confident you can reach them. That is enough to lead people to be much more open.
(1:35:06) Because I am not attacking you. I'm not judging you. I am actually telling you something to to help you, right? I am here as your your ally. I am here as your companion. And I'm trying to support you. >> [snorts] >> And I think so often we deliver that message and we don't explain our motives up front. And then other people put their guard up and they they think it's you versus me as opposed to you and me trying to tackle a problem together.
(1:35:29) And you know, I think there are lots of versions of this. I have um I I found a couple other versions really helpful. I have I have found it really useful to to preface feedback or advice by saying, "Hey, I noticed a couple of things that I thought might be helpful for you. Do you want to hear them?" >> Mhm.
(1:35:45) >> And even just opting in, right? Now it's not an it's not a an onslaught. It's actually a conversation. Another one that I really like is to say um I think in in great relationships, we're always trying to make each other better. I would love to know what you think I could do better, and then if you're if you're interested, I'm happy to come up with some things for you as well.
(1:36:06) >> You know, it during the podcast usually when I disagree with people and I want to accomplish a really good podcast for my viewers and so that that's the exact motivation of the guest as well. And I disagree with something. Earlier I used to just say, "Hey, I don't agree with this." >> Yep. >> Right? And that used to kill the conversation.
(1:36:27) >> It shouldn't. >> Yeah, it it's if it's a highly secure guest, it'll kill the conversation. If it's highly insecure guest, then it'll make like just a fight. Like makes >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Right? You know, and then I found out that just this tweak where I used to say this that the moment you said this thing here's what I started thinking.
(1:36:49) >> Yes, you're walking me through your thought process not your conclusion. >> Exactly. And you know, I think like this and this and this. What do you think about that? So now I'm trying to opt like I'm trying to buy you a different kind of perspective, and you are giving your perspective. And sometimes I've seen that often times guest actually self-corrects them or just say that, "Hey, I like this perspective. I've not thought about it.
(1:37:11) Let me come back to you." >> Yes. >> And that makes so much better than just blatantly disagreeing. >> I I think that's exactly right. I think so two things you just sparked for me when you said that I I love the way you articulated that is it's a it's a very subtle shift, but it has profound implications, which you've clearly lived.
(1:37:31) I think the first thing is that we're looking for the wrong response when we disagree with other people or when we have conflict. We want people to say, "You know what? I was wrong. You were right." >> Mhm. >> Or even to go the Happy Gilmore extra step of um you were right, I was wrong. Um you're good-looking, I'm not attractive. >> But the clearest signal that you've reached somebody is not them saying you were right.
(1:37:57) It's them saying I never thought of it that way. >> Mhm. >> And what what you're trying to do is not change their mind, but expand their perspective. In a healthy conflict Well, actually, yeah, in I think in a toxic conflict, you're trying to to Let me try that one more time. I think in a toxic conflict, you are trying to dictate someone else's views.
(1:38:19) Yeah. In a healthy conflict, you're trying to introduce someone else to a new view and also get a better understanding of their view. And I think your idea of saying, "Hey, here's what I was thinking when you said that." It it actually maps perfectly onto something I was trying to do when I went through conflict mediation training.
(1:38:37) So, for a long time, I was a an extreme people pleaser, highly agreeable. I was afraid of conflict. And I I actually went and trained as a conflict mediator thinking if I could help other people through their conflicts, one, that would be helpful, and two, it would make me more comfortable at embracing conflict.
(1:38:55) And one of the things I learned was what's called the ladder of inference, which is this it's a it's a simple model. Here, let's let's draw it. >> Yeah. >> You have an eraser handy? Again. >> Let's go. >> All right, so let's let's take a simple a very simple model here. >> Mhm. >> Um we're going to go like this.
(1:39:16) So, you are in a team meeting. >> Okay. >> And you're Give me a name of somebody you don't work with. >> I don't work with Adam. >> Okay, good. All right, we're going to we're going to do this then. Okay, so we've got Raj and Adam, okay? So, this is a ladder of inference. Um we are in a we're in a Zoom meeting together.
(1:39:36) >> Okay. >> Okay? And I notice that you turn your camera off. And that's a little data point that I'm paying attention to. Okay? You're doing other things. >> Mhm. >> Uh you had typed a message in the chat. You might be tapping your foot. There there's a whole lot of other stuff going on in the meeting, but I zoom in on that data point.
(1:39:56) And then I make an assumption. Which is Raj is not listening. >> Mhm. >> And I could have made different assumptions, but for whatever reason that's the place I go. And then I I interpret that and eventually I get to a conclusion, which is not a team player. >> Mhm. >> And there's I mean this is normal. This happens in every interaction we have with another person.
(1:40:29) >> True. >> What I don't realize is you have your own ladder. I'm not thinking about this. >> Mhm. >> You have just been zoom-bombed by a toddler who ran into the room. Okay? >> Yeah. >> And your assumption is that that was thoughtful. >> Mhm. >> Because you didn't want to distract everyone, right? >> Yeah. >> And then your conclusion is that you are being actively helpful.
(1:40:57) Maybe even proactively helpful. >> Mhm. >> Right? >> Yeah. >> Now, we stop there. This is okay. This is just part of being human. I have my own ladder of inference in my head. You have a different one. This is what makes interactions messy, complicated, but also sometimes really interesting. The problem is I confront you.
(1:41:16) And I only argue with you about the conclusion. I come to you and I say, "Raj, I am so sick and tired of you not being a team player." And you're like, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I'M A GREAT TEAM PLAYER." And there's just there's there's no common ground there. What I should do is walk down the ladder. And say, "You know what? Hey Raj, I noticed in the meeting you turned your camera off.
(1:41:40) Just curious, what was behind that? >> Yeah. >> And then you can say, "Oh, actually >> [laughter] >> yeah, I got interrupted. And you know, please tell me if you think there's a better way to handle that in the future." And I could say, "Oh, no problem. I think you made the right call." And so I think that this this ladder is all about recognizing that we are constantly like climbing up the ladder without realizing it.
(1:42:01) And we make the mistake of confronting people with our conclusions instead of walking them through our data and then letting them correct our assumptions by sharing their data. And that means you have to be willing to be wrong. You have to know your interpretations were complete. When I did this, I probably have a whole history of being annoyed that other people turn their cameras off and they weren't paying attention.
(1:42:24) Or you and I got off on the wrong foot. And I look at this and I'm like, "You know what? That is so Raj. Exactly the kind of thing Raj would do to check out of our team meeting." Right? And then if we don't if we don't have this data exchange, I am constantly then in confirmation bias. I've concluded you're not a team player.
(1:42:41) I'm now looking at everything you do through that negative lens and it's just reinforcing my pre-existing convictions that you are not a good collaborator or ally. >> True. But how do you know that this person was not lying and making this up? >> You don't. You don't. And that's where I would say you ask them to share the data.
(1:43:02) You align on how to handle that situation in the future. And if they go camera off again, uh you you basically give them the benefit of the doubt. If they start doing it regularly, then you could say, "You seem to be getting a lot of interruptions. And I you know, I'd love to talk about that because I want to make sure that that's not interfering with your ability to be a good teammate, which is I know I know that's something that you care about, too.
(1:43:25) So let's talk about how we align on what being a good teammate looks like." And I've got to hold that person accountable, right then, for following through on what my expectations are. >> How many chances or how many benefit of doubts are enough? >> Oh, I wish I had a precise scientific answer to that question. I don't. I think >> [sighs and gasps] >> Well, there's actually there's game theory research on this.
(1:43:50) Uh on what's called generous tit-for-tat. >> Okay. >> So, you know in tit-for-tat, if somebody cooperates, you cooperate. If they defect, you're supposed to punish them. In generous tit-for-tat, you forgive them one out of three times. And in repeated games where people have an ongoing relationship or a visible reputation, that actually outperforms the the tit-for-tat approach.
(1:44:13) So, I think that you know, I'm I'm fine giving people the benefit of the doubt the first time. I will not though if they then cross me a second or a third time. I will not continue assuming good intent. At that point, as as Sheila Heen, who's a great conflict expert, taught me, I will say, I am no longer going to assume good intent.
(1:44:33) I'm going to realize I don't know their intent. And I need to be a lot more cautious with them. And I might not believe their explanations of their motives. I might give them more of a chance to prove through their behavior that they have hurt me. I think there's a there's a great saying that the best apology is changed behavior.
(1:44:52) And if somebody repeatedly claims that they're going to make a change and they don't follow through with their actions, I do not consider them trustworthy. >> But repeatedly, you give them just one chance and then second time it's off because of game theory you just you just >> I think it's one out of every three.
(1:45:09) And so, you would want to I think in >> times someone does someone something nice, one time they up, it's okay. And then >> The second time they're on notice. That's a warning. And I want to make sure I've been you know, it's it's kind of What's the saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If if they if they violate my values a second time, the only thing I'm going to do at that point is make sure there is no ambiguity about what my expectations and goals were.
(1:45:41) And [snorts] I'm also going to try to do everything I can to align their incentives with what I care about. And if they fail the third time, I am not wasting my energy on them anymore. >> Interesting. Let's say to to [snorts] sum this up, the fight question that I asked you, what would be one rule or the first rule that people should keep in mind when they're fighting with each other so that the fight gets them closer? >> I think the first rule the first rule of a good fight is you are not a mind reader. You cannot know what is in
(1:46:17) somebody else's head. You don't know other people's values, motives, intentions. They don't always have perfect access to what's going on in their head. And so I've actually started saying to people, and this is a great way to Sorry, let me try that again. I I've had a lot of fun with this. I think it's a great way to lighten the mood a little bit and go into pal mode during a conflict.
(1:46:37) I'll say something like, "Hey Raj, I know I can't read your mind. Would you be willing to read it to me?" And that that's me both, I hope, showing a little bit of humility, right? Thinking, "I don't know everything that's relevant to resolving this issue." It's me showing curiosity, inviting you to educate me, enlighten me about what's going on in your head.
(1:46:59) Um you know, I was genuinely surprised by this thing that happened, and I realized I have no idea what, you know, what drove it for you. And rather than make assumptions, whether those are fair or unfair to you, I just would like to I would like to understand you better so that we can get along better, we can be closer, we don't misunderstand each other.
(1:47:17) Walk me down your ladder. >> Interesting. I love this question. I I I love this way of actually dealing with like I can't read your mind. Can you tell me what's on your mind? It's a very good thing. >> Try it at your own risk. Let me know how it goes. [laughter] >> No, but [gasps] I I can instantly think of like so many different situations where I can use this whether it's it's with your romantic partner, a colleague, an investor, or like so many different people you can just do it.
(1:47:46) The moment you see them not only in fights, but the moment you see them checking out of the conversation. You can probably use this to bring them back in the conversation that hey, I I can sense that you've checked out and I can't see what's on your mind. Can you tell me what's going on in your mind? >> Yeah, I think I think it's a great way to at least get people to share something about what they're thinking with you. It may not be the whole truth.
(1:48:08) It may not be the the fully accurate picture, but it might be information that helps you. >> Do you know in the beginning when we were talking about vibe, there was one question I just you know pointed out and I forgot to ask you was I think you also touched about loneliness and we just shut that conversation but we didn't go deeper on that, right? >> Mhm.
(1:48:27) >> You a lot of young people have this problem that they don't have friends or they can't make friends. >> Yeah. >> So, if someone's moving to a new city and they want to instantly go build genuine connections and not wait for like 10 months or 2 years to build a genuine connection, what should they do? >> All right, there there are great experiments on this in the UK where people are randomly assigned to go through a 6-hour exercise and 2 years later they are significantly less lonely, less depressed, and they have a
(1:49:00) stronger sense of connection and social belonging. >> What is it? >> What do they do for 6 hours? >> Yeah. >> They were asked to map the existing groups in their life and figure out which ones they wanted to prioritize and also to identify some new groups to join. That's it. Become part of a group and it didn't matter much what kind of group it was.
(1:49:21) It could be you joined a church or a mosque or a synagogue. It could be you joined a basketball league or a cricket league. It could be you signed up for a painting class. It could be you volunteered for a charity. When people come together in a group, what's great is you have built-in pals because you picked something that you have an interest in and you also have immediate allies because the group has a goal that they're trying to accomplish together.
(1:49:49) And I think that we've, you know, it's been a quarter century since Robert Putnam published Bowling Alone and documented the fact that people in people had stopped bowling in leagues and, you know, American community was getting more and more fragmented. We've seen that happen in many many countries throughout the world now, not always with bowling, but I think we we see a lot of people who are struggling to make friends.
(1:50:16) We see people spending more and more time alone. I think that I think that the best antidote to, you know, to feeling isolated is not just to get to know one person at a time because there's research on this which I found fascinating. It turns out if your friends don't know each other, you actually feel less supported than if your friends do know each other.
(1:50:39) And I think this has been a a fairly global shift that our networks used to look like very densely woven spider webs where kind of, you know, everybody who was friends knew each other. >> Yeah. >> And now if you ask people to map their networks, they look much more like a bicycle wheel where you're a hub and you have these spokes that are not directly connected only through you.
(1:51:00) And the reason that's problematic is one, you can't do anything at the group level. So you miss out on collective effervescence which is that great experience of, you You a group activity where you feel like you're part of a community or a team as opposed to you just have a one-on-one bond. But also, if if you're going through a hard time, nobody [clears throat] knows to tell everybody else because your friends are strangers to each other.
(1:51:25) Whereas if you're part of a group and one person finds out that you broke your leg or you're going through financial strain, right? The group can rally to support you. >> Interesting. That This is so true. I I started thinking of 20 scenarios in my head the moment you said web versus bicycle. And it is so true.
(1:51:47) I'm the I'm the connector. And my group is not connected. They have no clue and that's why I find I struggle to do group level things. >> Well, I think now is the perfect moment Raj to introduce your friends to each other >> Mhm. >> and start forming a group. You know, when my when my oldest left for college, she she felt like No, [snorts] sorry.
(1:52:07) I don't want to I don't want to That'll be too long of an explanation. Let me try it this way. Um I think a lot of people believe the key to making friends is to have a bunch of one-on-one interactions. And it is it is easier to bond with people one-on-one, but finding your place is much more about joining a group than meeting one person.
(1:52:25) >> True. Go for the longer one. The longest >> Oh, the longer one. So, um we One of my daughters um I had a conversation with my daughter about uh how hard it is to change I actually I have a short I have a shorter version of the story. Let's try this. So, my daughter changed schools uh as a teenager. >> Okay.
(1:52:45) >> And we had a lot of conversations about how hard it is to break into a friend group that's been together already for years. >> True. >> And she she felt like she couldn't find her group. And then she went to college and realized she could form her group. And it was such a lightbulb moment. And I do think that this is one of the keys to isolation.
(1:53:10) This is one of the ways to to fight loneliness. It's to say, if you cannot find your group, then it's time to form your group. And all you need to do is find a few people that you share a hobby with or you share a mission with and invite them to [clears throat] show up together and and see how it goes. >> See, this is basic information, right? People know this already.
(1:53:31) Still, people don't do it. Why do you think people are getting lonelier and lonelier? They've started eating alone, they started doing activities alone, they started going for even the sports alone and they just come back alone. They're not friends with people. Why is it happening? >> I think it it starts to feel risky. Because you used to have to interact with other people to to to have a meal.
(1:53:54) >> Yeah. >> You used to have to connect with people to play a game. And now like we have readily available, like we can, you know, we can get the ingredients we need or you know, we can order from our favorite delivery service. Um we can play video games alone. And so we're not as dependent on other people to to do our pal and and ally activities as we used to be.
(1:54:18) I think, you know, it's it's basically I think that's part of the problem. I think the other part of the problem is you feel like you're taking a risk. You might get rejected. If you ask someone else to do something and they say no or it doesn't go well. But I think every rejection is a learning opportunity.
(1:54:37) I think that every time you don't vibe, it's a chance to figure out, well, how can I have a better connection next time? And I think we should take a much longer view and uh and imagine if you don't ever put yourself out there, how many relationships are you going to miss out on? It's just a sad way to live your life, I think.
(1:54:55) >> But do you think that it's also because a lot of people have gotten polarized? So you feel like >> Yeah. >> I don't agree with your views, you don't agree with mine, and that's why it's like it's not worth having a conversation with or building friendship with. >> I I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, there there was a study that came out a few years ago showing that people would rather interact with a stranger who shares their political ideology than a friend who doesn't.
(1:55:24) That That is a problem. Right? When we think that our interactions are going to be defined by one set of views and a very limited portrait of a person, like we are we are failing to I think to build solidarity and to build community, which by definition is people coming together across differences. >> Let's say, do you think that two people who disagree on something very central like politics, religion, can they form a genuine close bond? >> Yeah, of course. Of course.
(1:55:55) I mean, there there are tons of examples of this in Vibe. Uh you know, we talked about C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien earlier. Uh one, when they met, Lewis was an atheist, and Tolkien was a devout Christian. And at first, they they just overcame that difference by talking about mythology. >> Mhm. >> And over time, Tolkien [clears throat] actually convinced Lewis to adopt Christianity.
(1:56:21) And they they ended up changing each other in various ways. Um I think that if you reduce somebody to one belief or one attitude, you're going to find a very strong reason not to interact with them. >> Mhm. >> If you see people in three dimensions, if you look at humans as more of a kaleidoscope, you're going to find lots of reasons to interact with them.
(1:56:40) >> True. You know, you During a conversation, you've brought this multiple times that you were an introvert. >> Still am. >> You still are. >> I've become less shy, but I'm still an introvert, for sure. >> So, you were a shy introvert, but you're much better right now. I don't see that.
(1:56:58) You have a lot of people to interact with. You have this career where you are always on the stage and limelight and like all of these things you do, right? Tell me, how can an introvert become a socially magnetic person? >> Well, >> you've done this for yourself. >> Yeah, I So, I mean, I don't know. Socially magnetic is a high bar.
(1:57:16) I've certainly become less bad at connecting and communicating than I used to be. And I think that for me, this you know, this goes right back to if-then, which is I I thought I was going to have to change my personality. And then I had an extraordinary professor, Brian Little, who was the most captivating lecturer I've ever seen.
(1:57:36) >> Mhm. >> And he confided to us that he's an introvert. And I thought, okay, if Brian can learn to give these spellbinding lectures, anybody could, you know, could learn [clears throat] to come out of their shell a little bit more. And I started paying attention to my if-thens. When am I naturally animated? When am I comfortable reaching out to people? And guess what? It was almost always telling people about psychology research.
(1:58:01) I I just like naturally I I loved the ideas so much and I wanted to share them and I thought they were helpful for, you know, achieving success and boosting happiness. I a different version of me showed up when I was learning about a new study or I was reading a meta-analysis, nerd alert, a study of studies.
(1:58:20) I was like, I can't wait to tell you about this, you know, this empirical synthesis of all of the studies that have been done to date on this topic. And I realized that if I select myself into situations where I get to talk about this thing that I love, it's not an act, right? This is This is me. You are seeing me expressing my values as opposed to my personality.
(1:58:39) >> Mhm. >> If you have to boil it down to the simple playbook or like rules to follow for an introvert, what you have done, how would you describe that? Like, give me three rules how an introvert can actually become an extrovert. >> So, I would say don't become an extrovert. I would say don't try to change your personality, adapt your behavior.
(1:59:01) >> Okay. >> And what that means is you're looking for specific situations where you feel that your introverted tendencies are a barrier to achieving your goals or expressing your values. And so, let's take let's take some examples. Those might be public speaking. >> Mhm. >> Especially if you're shy and anxious, harder to do as an introvert than an extrovert.
(1:59:19) >> Yeah. >> That might be meeting new people. Um introverts are are actually really great at strengthening bonds, but often initiating them is something they hesitate around. Okay, so I've identified some specific situations. I don't have to be an extrovert in every walk of life. That's the first step. Find the moments where you want to be more energetic and more assertive and more outgoing.
(1:59:41) Second step is identify your triggers. What are the cues that bring that out in you? So, for me it was sharing ideas about psychology. For somebody else, it might be any bit of knowledge that they love to share. It might be um a setting in which they feel more confident. And so, if you are an avid surfer or water skier, go meet people on the beach, right? And that will be then, okay, people are naturally going to going to gravitate toward you.
(2:00:08) They're going to approach you. You feel like you have something to offer there. And then, I think the third thing is to know your limits. I think if you put yourself in that situation too too long, what the data tell us is that is a recipe for burnout. And so, you need a you need a container to say, "Okay, I will give a certain number of speeches or I will meet a certain number of new people.
(2:00:30) " And in fact, I think that's a great place to start is to say, "Let's put all these pieces together. You've identified the behavior you want to adapt, the situation you want to become more assertive, energetic, or outgoing in, and exactly how much of that you can handle." And then you set a goal and you say, "I'm going to introduce myself to one new person a week.
(2:00:48) Or I'm going to give three talks per month. And that's a very achievable goal. And now I'm not stressed about all the other times when I'm not hopping on stage or I'm not reaching out to somebody because I've set myself a container. I've created a a manageable stretch goal for myself. >> See, you know, what I also believe is >> [snorts] >> I read this a while ago.
(2:01:13) It's called likeness gap. >> Yeah, this is Erica Boothby's research. Yes. Yes, we underestimate how much other people like us. >> Exactly. Like a lot of people who think that they're introverts, they feel like they don't have anything exciting and their life is very boring and they don't have this thing that where they can keep a conversation and other people are going to find them bad.
(2:01:33) So, they don't even initiate it. >> Yeah. >> That other people not going to like them. And on an average, people like us way more than we think about. >> That is empirically true and I I would add two things to it. The first one is that even boring conversations are more interesting than we expect. There's a brand new paper on this.
(2:01:51) It turns out that not knowing what the other person is going to say and also thinking of things that we want to say is enough to keep us engaged. If you want to have better conversations, keep your turns short. More rapid back and forth is actually associated with a better vibe because we end up then creating a dynamic that's called burstiness where the the conversation is literally bursting with energy and ideas and we're building on each other and we're riffing off of each other and if you talk too long, it becomes a monologue as opposed
(2:02:19) to a meaningful exchange, which is I think the great danger of being a good interviewer. >> [laughter] >> As a podcast host, right? You ask a meaty question and I might have 5 minutes of thoughts worth sharing with you. That would not be a good model for a conversation. I think optimal turn turn length is probably no more than 1 to 2 minutes.
(2:02:36) And sometimes we want to be going back and forth every 10, 20, 30 seconds. That's one thing. The other thing I'll say on this, ironically, cuz you did make me think of another thing, is add the the liking gap or the liking gap, add to the liking gap the spotlight effect, which is the long-standing phenomenon where people assume that others are paying more attention to them than they actually are.
(2:02:58) You go into an interaction, you feel like, "Oh, no, I was an awkward turtle. I really messed that up." And the other person was they didn't even notice. They were thinking about the mistake that they made. And we just we we kind of live our lives thinking that we're in a spotlight, when in fact most of the time we are in the audience, and the other person is in their own spotlight.
(2:03:20) And I think that just makes it way easier to accept all of the just the stumbles we have in our interactions with other people. >> Yeah, that I used to believe in this one thing, but not I mean, that helped me. I don't know if I still believe it or not, but it's a good way to start conversations.
(2:03:37) I used to be very awkward in when I used to go to these large conferences and networking events, right? I used to be very insecure about myself that oh, did I do well? Did I look well? Did I talk to the right person? Like, do they think that I'm valuable? So etc. And the mindset shift which helped me become much better is everybody's insecure about themselves.
(2:03:56) >> Yes. >> And the way to form better connection is can I make somebody less insecure about themselves instead of thinking about my own insecurity because the back of the head almost everybody's insecure. So, can I help them become little secure? And that's the way to build connections, and it helped me so much that I was just looking for an opportunity to make people feel better, >> [clears throat] >> make people feel better about themselves.
(2:04:25) And it just helped me build connections after that. >> That's such a great insight. That I mean, that's what you would expect to give or rather than a take her to do in an interaction is to start by by offering, how can I make the other person feel secure? You know, it's it's funny. I've watched my wife Allison do this so beautifully. She'll She's She's also She's much more introverted and even shyer than I am.
(2:04:45) And despite that, I think because she's highly socially skilled and she's also kind, we'll we'll show up at a dinner party or some kind of gathering and she'll she'll walk up to a total stranger and say, "I love your shoes." And I think she's just she's you know, she's not look she's not out looking for something to praise.
(2:05:06) But, when she notices something that she likes, she's she's very generous with compliments. >> Nice. >> And I think that's one of the easiest ways to vibe with people is anytime you notice something that you could praise about someone else, don't bite your tongue. Share it. People love to be told something good about themselves and we are constantly admiring other people's strengths, sometimes envying their skills and their accomplishments.
(2:05:32) Why not just put that on the table more often? >> True. So, let's say if we have to summarize everything, >> Yeah. >> all the things that we've talked about how to vibe with people, give me your top three rules. >> Top three principles for vibing with other people. Number one, pick your wavelength. Decide if you want to be allies on a mission together, pals having fun together, or companions confiding in each other.
(2:05:58) Number two, lead with a little bit of vulnerability. >> Mhm. >> Say, like if if you walk up to somebody that you've just uh that you've only met once or twice before and say, "You know, something that I really appreciate and admire about you is Uh actually, I guess that's the compliment approach we just talked about.
(2:06:17) So, I'll I'll give you that as number two. Number two, be generous with compliments. When you appreciate somebody, let them know. The research on this shows that you might feel awkward saying thank you, but they actually just feel gratified. It makes them feel that they matter. >> Mhm. >> And then number three, if you want to if you want to build a stronger vibe with other people, uh let them know If you want to build a stronger vibe with other people, don't be afraid to argue and fight about little things because that's how you practice for the
(2:06:49) bigger ones. But, it's also how you learn to accept that we don't have to agree on everything to be aligned on important things. >> True. What is the one advice nobody should follow? >> Nobody should follow? I think oh, there there's so many. I think I think one piece of advice no one should follow is follow your passion.
(2:07:16) Because what you're passionate about today might be boring to you tomorrow. And also, it doesn't take into account what you're good at and what makes the world better. And so, you could listen to your passion, but I would say follow your talent, find your purpose, and then develop your passion. >> Nice. I really like it.
(2:07:40) >> [laughter] >> I like it. You I used to have a version of this, but you just made it much more better. >> What was yours? >> stealing this. >> [laughter] >> No, I used to believe in the same thing like don't follow your passion actually. But, mine was only that in the beginning find something which can pay your bills.
(2:07:57) And once you reach a comfortable position, then start thinking about passion things. Right? Don't be On day one when you are broke, don't think about following your passion. >> [laughter] >> I think that's fair. It needs to be practical. >> Yeah, like just just make the ends meet and then start thinking about all these things.
(2:08:13) But, your version is even better. >> I don't think it's better. >> No, I I like >> it's complimentary. >> Yeah, I I like this. Okay. I asked this question to almost everybody. What personal cost did you pay to become Adam Grant? >> A lot of discomfort. putting myself in situations that I did not succeed in. Uh, you know, crashing and burning as a public speaker, getting lots of critical feedback from students and from audiences, um, literally crashing as a springboard diver >> [laughter] >> when I when I was not I wasn't flexible and I couldn't jump high and I didn't
(2:08:53) have good body control. Uh, that was That was hard. Um, you know, seeking a lot of interaction where I felt like I failed to connect and I still stumble in lots of interactions. I think I I vibe with more of the people more of the time now than I did before, but it's always a work in in progress and I'm always learning something and I think that's part of the joy and excitement of every interaction is saying, "Okay, if something goes wrong, worst case scenario, it'll be material.
(2:09:17) It'll be a story I can share in the future or it'll be something I can learn to get better." I think the the other to be really really candid on this, I think the other sacrifice I made to to get where I am is I under-invested in friendships for a long time. I remember when Give and Take came out in 2013, my first book, somebody asked me, "How do you prioritize who you spend time with?" And I said, "Family first, students second, colleagues third, everyone else fourth.
(2:09:48) " And I was I was kind of locked in to being like a good ally and companion and hopefully pal to my family. And then basically an ally to my students and to my colleagues. And I completely forgot about a category of people who really matter in my life and the idea of being a good friend and I think that I I spent too little time checking in on my friends and trying to be supportive of them, but also just hanging out with them.
(2:10:16) It's good to have pals in your life. And I think I didn't need to make that sacrifice. I think I could have I could have been a little bit more selective in what I said yes to and made more time for my friends and not only am I am I working hard to correct that now, but I wrote a whole book about Vibe knowing that if I went and talked to other people about it, it was going to it was going to motivate me and hold me accountable around prioritizing this, but I've also in the past few years I started creating more groups. Um I now
(2:10:47) host a gathering where I bring interesting people that I've met from different walks of life together and I get so much joy out of building that community and helping people connect with others that they can vibe with and I think that is a contribution that I really overlooked is I I don't have to just join a community and then try to maximize my contribution to it.
(2:11:09) I can actually build a community and help everyone elevate their contributions to it. >> Interesting. Nice. This is such a common cost that a lot of ambitious people have talked about. >> I'm sad to hear it, but I'm hoping to help change it. >> Well, I hope that too. And I'm stealing this one more thing from you of actually going to a city and building like throwing a dinner with all the interesting people I know so that I can convert my bicycle into a web.
(2:11:38) >> There you go. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, and then you'll get caught in the web. >> But that'll be interesting. Thank you so much. It was pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you, Raj. Pleasure was all mine. I really appreciate all the questions you've asked and just how much you've thought about the things I've spent my whole career studying and I think you you're doing an amazing job taking complex ideas and making them digestible and also widely accessible and like yeah, that's my mission.
(2:12:04) So thank you for being a great ally. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there a feedback for me? >> I think uh this is so hard. I think I I always have feedback cuz I think you're doing a disservice to people you spend time with if you don't give them a comment. I think it's interesting to me that you respond to a lot with but and you don't always disagree when you say but.
(2:12:27) And when I hear you say but, I think, "Oh, this is going to be a debate or a dance or you know, some kind of disagreement." But then you're actually like you're adding a layer of nuance or you're taking the topic in a new direction. And I might say if you reserve the but for when you really want a challenge, you'll get a little bit less defensiveness from people who are insecure.
(2:12:47) >> Oh. Wow, I didn't even notice it. Thank you. So, instead of using but uh and making the conversation deeper, you're you're saying that maybe I use and or some other word. >> I I think there's I mean there's probably a whole repertoire of options. I think you could say interesting or intriguing or huh. Uh and I I think if you just if you diversify the initial response, right? You're sending a signal.
(2:13:11) This is one of the things I've I've become much more attuned to as I've studied vibing. That first bit of communication, that but, tells me, "Okay, there's something oppositional or something contrarian coming." And actually like I which I'm excited about and I love I love having debates and I think we we disagreed productively on on several things today.
(2:13:28) Um but I yeah, I think I think it's you know, it's one of many tools in your toolkit and I think it it has greater effect if you use it when you are going to diverge. >> Wow, thank you. >> What about for me? >> Thank you. This is so good. >> This By the way, you just delivered a masterclass in how to receive feedback.
(2:13:46) Just saying thank you and smiling and taking notes. Tell me what I can do better. >> If you have first thought about telling a long story, go ahead and tell it. >> Oh, you don't think I should self-censor? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Like I I saw you doing that and I'm just being critical. >> Yeah, you should. >> It's like I could see that there is a longer version in your head, but you're like, "Oh, maybe just make it more digestible for audience.
(2:14:12) " And you cut it short and you give it a shorter version. >> I can definitely do that. I I definitely bit my tongue four or five times. Like, "Well, I don't want to like I don't want to take all this time on the one story when there's probably lots of other interesting ground to cover." Okay, I will I will work on that.
(2:14:27) Thank you for sharing. >> Thank you. I love this. Thank you so much. >> I had a blast. Thank you for having me, Raj. >> Pleasure having you. How are you? >> Yeah, how are you? >> Good to see you, Adam. >> Thank you for hosting. Ian Bremmer said this is the best podcast experience he's ever had. >> No way. >> And I told him I found that offensive.
(2:14:44) >> [laughter] >> He's been on my show, but he said you were amazing. >> Wow, this is so Thank you. Like, thanks to him. This I think he was just hyping it up for me. >> No, he doesn't he doesn't do that. >> He doesn't do that? >> Nope. >> So, you're like really close friends with him? >> He's a He's a very good friend and he is very critical of a lot of >> [laughter] >> a lot of things, as you probably noticed.
(2:15:04) >> Wow, I'm really happy. I've been a big fan of your work. >> Honored. I will try not to make you regret or rethink that, but you never know. >> You'll be fascinated to know that A, I'm very nervous. And B, because you were the you were probably the only reason because of whom I wanted to actually go to an Ivy League school and study.
(2:15:26) >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Oh, wow. >> I couldn't, but I really wanted. I was looking forward to you like maybe attend one of your classes because I used to follow you a lot. >> It's never too late. >> Yeah. >> You can do an MBA in the future. Just for >> now I get to spend time with you like this. >> That's right.
(2:15:43) You bring You bring You bring the teachers to you, right? >> Thank you for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guest you would like to see on the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make every episode a little better.
(2:16:01) I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.
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