Psychotherapist: Why Healthy Men Feel Boring to Women

Psychotherapist: Why Healthy Men Feel Boring to Women

Author Name:Mighty Pursuit

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@MightyPursuit

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaPIZstfP9g





Title: Psychotherapist: Why Healthy Men Feel Boring to Women

Author Name: Mighty Pursuit

Description: Wanting a healthy relationship and feeling drawn to one are not always the same thing.

Someone is kind, consistent and emotionally available, yet you feel no spark. Someone else keeps you guessing, and you can’t stop thinking about them. Even when you recognize that a relationship is hurting you, the pull doesn’t necessarily disappear.

Psychotherapist Terri Cole has spent nearly 30 years helping people break destructive relationship patterns. But she also knows this confusion from the inside. For years, she pursued emotionally unavailable men while dismissing a man whose kindness and stability seemed better suited to someone else.

To understand why this happens (and what it takes to change it), we follow five clues:

• Why healthy men can feel boring
• What slot machines reveal about why toxic relationships are so hard to leave
• What a Father’s Day card exposed about Terri’s earliest experience of love
• The 19-page letter to her father—and whether healing requires an apology
• Why the man she had overlooked for years suddenly became attractive to her

This conversation goes beyond recognizing red flags. It follows how childhood experiences can shape attraction, what we tolerate in relationships, and why understanding a pattern is not always enough to stop repeating it.

Together, those clues lead to a much bigger question:

What has to change for the love you want to become the love you’re drawn to?

CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Intro
1:20 - Not My Type (Clue 1)
19:35 - The Toxic Love Trap (Clue 2)
44:59 - The Father Wound (Clue 3)
1:02:05 - Healing Without An Apology (Clue 4)
1:25:31 - The Right Kind of Chemistry (Clue 5)
1:42:57 - Putting the Clues Together

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Terri Cole Links:
Instagram:   / terricole  
Father Wound (Book): https://link.amazon/B0dAWhiZb

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Transcript:
(00:00) You know, what? Maybe not feeling like a crazy person in a relationship isn't a bad thing. Maybe the way you normally feel is something we need to unpack and look at what that means. >> Hey everyone, you're watching Mighty Pursuit. Life is too hard to navigate without a map, so we built one for the entire human experience.
(00:22) Each episode we bring one part of life into focus, and today we're making sense of dating and marriage and how our mental health can shape [music] who we choose. Our guest is Terri Cole, a psychotherapist who has [music] spent nearly 30 years helping people break destructive relationship patterns. >> [music] >> But she didn't just study these patterns, she has spent years living them herself.
(00:44) I'm Matthew Thompson and I'm your host. To make sense of it all, we're following five clues, including why healthy men can feel boring, what slot machines [music] can teach us about toxic relationships, and somehow what a Father's Day [music] card has to do with it all. Now, let's see what pattern emerges. >> [music] >> So, Terri, years ago your friend David introduced you to a man named Vic.
(01:26) And David himself was, in your words, a womanizing cheater. >> [laughter] >> So, when he told you Vic is nothing like me, that should have been like a pretty strong endorsement. Uh and Vic actually was different. You described him as handsome, emotionally present, genuinely interested in you, and the kind of man who was actually available.
(01:44) But your reaction was basically, great guy, not for me. >> Mhm. >> Uh and meanwhile, the men you were drawn to were intense, unpredictable, hard to read, and, you know, the ones that kept you guessing. And so, what did those men make you feel that Vic didn't? >> Insecure. >> [snorts] >> Which was familiar. They made me It was like uh you were you had to fight for something, right? You were It was all this up and down. So, that to me was chemistry.
(02:15) I didn't realize it was really just familiarity. But I thought, "Oh, when you feel that way, your your stomach is dropping, your heart is beating, that's what it's about." But then when you get healthy, you realize, "No, maybe that just means it's not a good relationship." >> You have a whole section about like how healthy registered as boring in your book.
(02:39) And so, what did boring actually register to you at the time as? >> Not for me. Right? Like so, it I could intellectually see a decent person, especially in Vic. I thought he was so amazing. I kept trying to fix him up with other women, and for years we stayed friends for years. And I was like, "Somebody should bag this guy, even if it's not going to be me." Like he's so straight, successful.
(03:04) I really couldn't see. It was like my vision was distorted. >> Mhm. Yeah, I mean, hearing that it almost like doesn't make any sense. Why would somebody be less Whether it's you or it's somebody else that's listening, why would someone be less interested in someone who's like emotionally present and available? >> Because it's unfamiliar and you don't recognize that person as dating material.
(03:28) So, I was attracted to men like my father, who were emotionally unavailable, who made me work for attention, for time. So, you don't purposefully do that. This is something that you we internalize, right? This is I call this repeating relationship reality. As Freud called it, repetition compulsion. >> Mhm. >> Right? Where you just repeat what you do not repair.
(03:53) That's a quote by Christine Obau, I think is her name, which I always say because it's just so true. But when you're in it, I was young, too. This is my, you know, late 20s, early 30s. So, why you don't recognize cuz it doesn't make conscious sense, but it makes energetic sense. It makes sense historically for what you experienced. >> You mentioned a word, chemistry earlier, which I think is really interesting.
(04:19) >> Mhm. >> Of what we're registering this as, and I think in the modern dating landscape, uh chemistry is kind of one of those things top of the list that people are after. I mean, I've literally had friends who are like, "Just needs to be chemistry. There needs to be chemistry." Uh and then you want to untangle on like, what what does that word actually mean? Do you Do you think that that is a good goal as you go along the dating process? >> I think compatibility is a better goal.
(04:48) If you want a long-term relationship. I think that chemistry can be a code word for a lot of other things. And if you haven't done your own work, if you haven't looked at your past, if you haven't looked at childhood wounds, if you have a father wound or a mother wound or whatever it is, and you haven't done that work, you're likely being driven to repeat what you haven't repaired.
(05:13) That's probably in the mix. So, when I would have my therapy clients and they would we'd be doing work, they're starting to heal, they're like, "I don't know. I don't I don't I don't feel the way I normally feel it. I don't think this person's for me." I would always say, "You know what? Maybe not feeling like a crazy person in a relationship isn't a bad thing.
(05:32) Maybe the way you normally feel is something we need to unpack and look at what that means." People being used to walking on eggshells, being insecure, managing someone in a relationship, which are all the things that I did before I figured out what I was doing. I didn't Listen, you don't you don't suddenly realize, oh, Freud said, well, we repeat, you know, we're repeating something that's familiar, but that is human nature.
(06:00) And that is often what is happening. And logically, cuz you asked a good question, why would we do that? How often do people say, I will never be in a relationship with someone like my father. You know what? If you do not do some intervention to make sure that you likely will be in a relationship with someone like your father if it was a dramatic or traumatic experience.
(06:22) Because it's what you know. And the confusion is we are mistaking familiarity with chemistry. They're not the same thing. And keep in mind, I mean, I've been married for almost 30 years. It's like compatibility is really the most important thing. I also think that people confuse >> [gasps] >> uh compliance with compatibility.
(06:51) Women in particular in my practice, therapy practice, will be like, you know, we I don't know what my problem is. You know, I'm in a like a perfect We never fight. It's like amazing. We get along great. And I'm like, right, but do you never fight because you comply? Because you're a people pleaser? Because you are always acquiescing to what your partner wants? You feel unsatisfied because you are not known.
(07:18) Because you are not asserting your boundaries, what are your preferences, limits, and deal breakers. If you're not doing that, you're just managing. Right? What I learned in the the family system that I grew up in was how to manage and manipulate men. Never a heart connection, get out. No, thank you. Why would I make myself vulnerable to men who are super untrustworthy? So, even looking at someone like Vic, who was trust trustworthy, that wasn't that interesting to me because I didn't recognize it as mating material unconsciously until I did a
(07:54) bunch of therapy and went down into the basement of my own mind with the help of an incredible therapist, Bev, who I was with for many, many years, to really unpack what happened. What did I learn about myself? Because if you look at what is a father wound, this is a worthiness wound. >> Mhm. >> This is where women, and I do it from the lens of women because it's what I know, it's where you learned somehow that the way you are isn't good enough.
(08:23) You should be smarter. You should get straight A's. You should be prettier or thinner or more athletic or whatever whatever way you feel like you weren't enough. So, this worthiness wound doesn't stay in childhood. This follows you into life, >> Mhm. >> relationships, family relationships, friendships, and a lot for women, romantic relationships.
(08:46) >> So, what do you what do you think then? You mentioned that chemistry could actually be a lot of different things. So, what do you think the things we actually are throwing in in there? Let me just use that word. >> Nervous system activation. >> Mhm. >> Right? This is what you're saying. You're saying I feel something.
(09:03) Maybe my heart is going pitter-patter. Compatibility, right? It Going back to what I I want the goal to be for my therapy clients, right? Is having things in common. Being similar when it comes to morals, values, ethics, having the same idea of what it looks like to be in a relationship. Asserting how you feel and what you want and to get your needs met because if you don't, you definitely won't because who could possibly read your mind? You are completely unique as I'm completely unique.
(09:37) Your needs are completely different from mine. But I think that especially father-wounded women, there's this tendency to I mean, if you look at what are the symptoms, what happens? People-pleasing is one of them. High-functioning codependency. Um hyper-independence. You know why? Cuz we don't trust you. We don't think you want to do the thing for me.
(10:01) I don't want to be a burden to you. I don't want to owe you. There's all of this relationships as transactional things, where if I'm self-contained and I'm very um hyper-independent, >> Mhm. >> then I don't owe you, for sure, which is preferable. Um but I'm also not vulnerable to you. And then, of course, on the flip side, I remain unknown in the relationship.
(10:25) >> You have talked about love bombing in your book. Um and I'd imagine like some of the things that you're talking about could immediately be associated as a negative, but it feels like potentially in the beginning of a relationship we're experiencing them as a positive. >> Mhm. >> And maybe that's what draws us in.
(10:46) So, can you explain to me like how that process like actually works? >> Yep. And and how it's similar to the beginning of a relationship where someone's not love bombing you. Right? Because this is the distinction we want to be able to make. >> Yeah. >> Love bombing is when someone pours adoration, could be gifts, just floods the zone with positivity towards you.
(11:10) Desire, excitement, surprises, you're amazing, only you can understand me. Like you're in this bubble of amazingness. Sex is great, like everything is amazing. Often there is an accelerated timeline when someone is love bombing you. So, they're future tripping their ass off.
(11:32) Like they're they're future pacing the relationship. Like, I don't know, next summer I've got a wedding. You're like, this is date two. How are we talking about next summer right now? This should be a red flag, by the way. How Now, someone had said to me once online, they asked a question, "Well, so if someone is nice and thinks you're amazing, it's always love bombing?" I'm like, of course not.
(11:53) If they're nice and amazing and they stay nice and amazing, then it wasn't love bombing. It was just them being nice and amazing. What is the telltale sign of love bombing? Is it once the person has you hooked with all the sweetness that they're luring you with, then the cycle of abuse begins. Then you're not the greatest.
(12:12) Then you kind of wear those pants. I've got to be honest, you kind of look fat. Like I'm not being mean. I wasn't going to say anything, but Bob also said he thought that you were kind of being weird like This is the beginning can be the beginning of hell. So, we want to protect ourselves from that.
(12:31) So, how do you know if that's what it is? First of all, let's just start with if something seems way too good to be true, not to be a bummer, but it probably is. Right? That's That's No one is perfect. Someone saying to you I I was just doing an interview yesterday and we were talking about love bombing and she was like, "Yeah, I dated So, I was on a first date with someone who was like, 'I love your voice.
(12:56) I could listen to it for the rest of my life.'" I was like, "Hello? Would you like I'm out of here immediately?" She was like, literally terrified. But that's something that's a red flag. It's you don't know me. If we're on the first date, you don't know what you could do with me for the rest of your life, and it's not appropriate to say so.
(13:17) People who are immediately talking about kids or all of these things are to trap. If someone really likes you and is lovely. They will remain that way. And if you push back, if you don't go with their ex- accelerated timeline, cuz this is how you can see, especially if it's like a narcissist or someone with cluster B personality disorder, it's like you can see that if you mess up their plan, right? They planned a whole weekend and you go, "Oh, actually that doesn't work for me.
(13:47) I'm going away with my girlfriends." It will be very unlikely that they will be able to contain their rage. Right? There will be a shift in their their what is coming at you, and it will be palatable. You will feel it. This is when you First of all, the moment you see that Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde with someone, you should get out.
(14:09) Like that is a very telltale sign of I'm not saying people can't ever get angry, but that's different. Like someone's shifting from being showering you to being so so pissed that you see it in their face. >> This much, yeah. >> [clears throat] >> If you're in a relationship and someone is is being lovely, tap the brakes.
(14:31) Lovingly. >> Now, I mean let's just say you meet somebody who would I guess meet the qualifications of a toxic man. I mean, is this something that is almost predatory in a sense, or could they be doing it even unknowingly because that's just the way they're wired? >> Certainly both. A lot of times they're just trying to get their needs met, too.
(14:55) Right? They may have no insight into their own in- illnesses the way that we would say it therapeutically, right? They may have no insight. And they may be a calculated predator. Right? All of those things are possible for a woman in a situation where the difference between having a healed these original injuries being healed and not being healed is often we get swept when you're unhealed.
(15:23) It's happening to you. It's like it's got a velocity of its own in a way. What healing your father wound creates is choice. You're not so afraid. You're able to choose to tap the brakes a little bit to say, "I can't actually do this weekend cuz I have other plans, but I can can we do Tuesday?" A normal person would say, "I'm so disappointed.
(15:53) I really wanted to see you, and I can't wait to see you Tuesday." Someone who's love bombing you is going to be so offended that you had like some nerve to make other plans and to do something and ruin their weekend. They spent all this time. How ungrateful you are. Like those things start to come out. >> If someone is in it today and you're helping them identify it, what does it actually feel like to be chosen by someone who keeps you on your toes? Maybe that person is more avoidantly attached.
(16:24) >> Yeah. Yep. >> And there's something about you that's like activated by that, and you're you keep being drawn to it. >> Yep. >> But it like gives you some sort of rush in a way, even though it's like not. >> And so, how does that kind of play out in real life example? >> Well, I mean, you're talking a lot about trauma bonding as part of what can happen there.
(16:44) When it's your intermittent reinforcement, someone's there, but then they're not. They come close, then you want to come close, then they come back, right? So, what that avoids is intimacy, right? When we're staying in these relationships with people who are not able to create intimacy, and maybe you're not either, what you all get to avoid is actually real deep intimacy because we're playing out this stuff.
(17:11) So, in real life, it's frustrating. It's painful. It's humiliating, and I've seen so many of my therapy clients, my clientele is very super highly capable women. That is those are my people. And so there's a lot of um shame and embarrassment that comes from being so highly capable. So many of them having like incredible careers all the things, but not being able to figure out the love thing or staying in an abusive relationship.
(17:39) >> Mhm. >> Like and not wanting anyone to know because they're like, "How did I even get here?" And this unhealed wound can lead you into that situation because it's familiar. And because you're so highly capable, you think it's going to be different with you. You actually think that you're going to be able to change them or that you're going to be able to heal them or that the love that you have will be the thing.
(18:01) But it's really a cycle of abuse a lot of times that you have to really decide is this how I want to live? And there's so much better. Like there's something so much better than that. Where you don't have to play out these unhealed wounds. As human beings, my theory is we can only talk it out or act it out. >> Mhm.
(18:27) >> And so I highly recommend talking it out or working it out in a book like this. Because if not, you will act it out. Because feelings trauma, pain, childhood experiences that it doesn't just disappear because it's inconvenient or because time has gone by. >> So uh if someone someone is dating right now and feels an overwhelming pull just towards another person what would you want them to stop and and do with that feeling in the moment in light of all this? >> I would want them to just slow down.
(19:04) You might be drawn to that person for good reasons. That's okay. But slow down. Because everything when we when we slow down, we have time to think. And I feel like with things like love bombing and manipulation, there's all of this urgency that gets planted in the relationship. Oh, um my lease is coming up.
(19:26) We have to decide to move in together. Like, that's not a good way to move in with someone. If your lease is coming up and we've been dating for 3 weeks, get another apartment, buddy. >> Let's say someone actually decides to pursue a man who's toxic for them. So, they experience like this the euphoria in the beginning and that's what actually made them commit to a relationship.
(19:48) >> Mhm. >> Um but now they're actually in the relationship. So, this person at some level can't really hide under love bombing. Maybe you start having those moments that you're talking about where they're like, "Oh, I'm going to go away with a weekend." And then there's like explosive uh about of anger and stuff like that.
(20:06) So, at this point, whatever your wounds are and how that's leading to you uh accepting mistreatment has become more obvious. >> Yeah. >> Uh and so, you would think that the the more obvious it becomes that they're unhealthy, it would be easier to leave. Is that what actually happens? >> It's hard to leave most of the time. Especially if you're trauma bonded because it feels like life and death.
(20:33) If you're really in this cycle of abuse, like if it if it has really gone to that point where now the person's mad at you, you have to grovel to get back. There's that cycle. >> Yeah. >> Right? Where everything is amazing and then you do something that is unforgivable. You don't even have the time to know what it is.
(20:50) And then you're on the outs. And then they're threatening to leave. And then they're being mean. And then they're It It just keeps going around. So, you're walking on eggshells and constantly trying to get back in the good graces of this person. Um it's exhausting. And it doesn't necessarily change unless you change it. Unless you I mean leaving of course.
(21:13) But when you get healthier you're less likely like what happens with an unhealed father wound is if you were mistreated in childhood or neglected in childhood, you have this vast tolerance for other people's bad behavior. The healthier you get the lower your tolerance for other people's bad behavior becomes and you can recognize.
(21:37) Right? It's hard to see red flags if you grew up and it was normal for someone to scream at you. You wouldn't you'd be like, oh that's the way men are. Right? That's the way when someone's mad that that's what they do. That's normal so to speak. I'm saying it's not. And it's not good for you. And that is a red flag. So it's you start recognizing it and your tolerance is it's funny.
(22:03) I see this with boundaries as well. When you're first getting healthy you can't even imagine like setting boundaries and setting limits with people it feels so scary. The healthier you get the more you unpack why it was so hard the more we deal with the childhood injuries then you get to a point where you can't not set the boundary.
(22:22) Right? That becomes the the thing where you're like, I have to say something. I am unhappy about this or I'm upset about this. I feel like with relationships it's kind of the same thing where you may because you might be so afraid to rock the boat. A lot of times father wounded women are conflict avoiding. Mhm. So you're doing everything to dancing as fast as you can to smooth things over to make sure your person is happy to make sure your person is good.
(22:48) And this infiltrates sex as well. Where in writing this book I was looking you know doing research obviously and there wasn't all that much out there and most of the books that are written about father wounds are not um secular. There's a lot of religious connotations and there's a lot of God involved.
(23:07) And and listen, God's great, I love her, but I feel like she's really pissed about being misgendered so much, but whatever. Um, my thought is that my my work is secular for sure, right? So, it's very much like data driven. So, I gathered 650 women and I started meeting with them and had them do a massive survey. And I really specifically wanted to know, because I know this impacted my own life sexually, that how it impacted them every way.
(23:35) Your relationship to authority, money, sex. So, what was discovered was most the most common phrase that I heard was that sex they didn't enjoy it. That it was they wanted it to be over and that it was about their partner. As long as their partner was happy, everything was fine. It was a box they were checking, it's fine. We're good.
(23:57) Some some person wrote, "Less sex is better." Another person wrote, "I I'm just happy he still wants me and isn't cheating on me." >> That's such a That's really high bar. >> Yeah. I was like, "Wow." But that was >> [clears throat] >> more than I don't know, it was like 60% of the people had problematic or inauthentic, right? Because when you are managing in your relationships, right? So, for me, when I was younger, it's a management issue.
(24:26) How am I going to allow myself to be vulnerable to you when I don't trust you? I'm not. So, it affects all areas of the relationship. >> So, the consistency of of the mistreatment, what we would accept. I mean, the women that you're describing right there, clearly at some level it's like they're they're they're they're accepting a standard, they're accepting a type of relationship that seems like misery at some level.
(24:53) I can't imagine that somebody would just continue in misery without any ups, and so you actually compare why someone stays in a toxic or abusive relationship maybe they're like why someone would keep gambling in in Las Vegas. And so, explain it explain that to me the intermittent reinforcement and kind of like even with a slot machine, be like >> Yeah, I mean it taps into the intermittent the intermittent reinforcement.
(25:18) So, what is that? Someone treating you lovely or loving just enough to keep you hooked. And then the bad behavior and then the mistreatment and then the neglect. But then they just come back right when you're just about ready to end it or walk out the door and they're like, "I'm so sorry. It's so hard to be vulnerable.
(25:36) " They do something that makes you go, "Oh, you know, it's their childhood. They just It was rough for them. I understand." Like you just get hooked back in. And again, really talking about trauma bonding and how hard these bonds can be to break because it's hitting that same the same way as it hard to stop doing heroin? Yes, it is.
(25:55) Because addiction is addiction and it really does hit the same part of the brain. So, break it cuz people will always say ignorant people will always say "Why don't you just leave?" You're like, "Okay." >> [sighs] >> As if it is that easy. It is not. Not to mention it's dangerous to leave abusive relationships, right? You have to really be stealthy and plan.
(26:18) >> Yeah. >> Anybody listening, if you're in an abusive relationship I have a whole thing on my website for you. Don't just First of all, don't show anyone your cards. Don't announce you're doing it. Like you really need to plan to leave an abusive relationship because there's a period of time where you're most likely I mean, to be killed by your partner.
(26:38) Like literally, there's statistics out there. >> So, I'm picturing like, you know, the the whole Vegas thing is like, you know, you're doing the slots and then basically you know, that you win a little bit and then it's like the the hope that you're actually going to hit the jackpot >> Yep.
(26:55) is the thing that's like driving you to continue. >> Well, it's the warmth. It's you you've had good times with this person. You have shared love with this person or a feeling of love, a feeling of closeness. A lot of times these are relationships that also have very dynamic sex lives. Talk about chemistry. Right? So, that's also hard to leave.
(27:19) Um I think for some for some people like it there's a there's a passion that can come into these trauma bonded relationships. But what ends up happening is the same thing in Vegas. You usually don't win big, right? You usually leave hungover and broke. And this is how you're left feeling. You get depleted in these relationships. And depending on if the person is um it's not just the love bombing.
(27:43) When you get to the abuse cycle, you're way, you know, the love bombing can still come back in, right? When they're trying to lure you back or hoover you back at the the same narcissist. But it's still hard to leave. And it's like you you're ashamed. So, it's hard to get support. You're afraid to tell your family, your friends what is really happening.
(28:04) So many women suffer alone in abusive relationships because again, they're so ashamed. They know what they're experiencing is not correct, but it's hard to leave. So, doing this work puts you in a better position to not end up in that type of relationship. >> Yeah, cuz at some level it's like if the if the if if the love bombing or the intensity of the chemistry, whatever we're calling it the spectrum of that, if that didn't happen at the beginning of the relationship, then I mean there probably wouldn't be much of a thing to attach yourself to. There
(28:38) wouldn't be anything to hold your hope on, I guess. Would you say that that's fair to say? >> It depends on what hope looks like, right? It depends on are you talking about people who've done the work or people who haven't. >> No, people who haven't. >> So, if you haven't, correct. This is my clients who go, "Not my type.
(28:58) " It was me looking at my husband and saying, "He's nice for someone else, not for me. Too stable, too normal, too boring." >> What is it about the unpredictability, like the unpredictability of the actual reward that you're getting in the moment versus like consistent versus this other guy that's like, "Cool. Oh, my god, he said he loved me again and like it's going to be good and then screams at me and screams and screams and screams and screams.
(29:22) Oh, he says he loves me again. Yeah, so." >> It's exciting in a different way. There's when I say exciting, I mean energetically, right? The ups and downs. You're It also when you're in a chaotic relationship, it like dominates your life. It's a perfect way to avoid, not that we do it on purpose, but it's what else are we doing? For most people, if you're in an abusive relationship, it is the thing that takes up most of your thoughts.
(29:48) >> Yeah. >> Most of your mind. Should I leave? I don't know. Sometimes he's so nice. Sometimes they're so great. So, it's people who are and as a therapist, of course, I've had clients who they're talking about the same person saying the same things. "Oh my god, you are not going to believe what he said last night, what he did.
(30:10) " I'm like, literally, you're the only person who's not believing it. I'm not at all surprised. From the first time you told me he was an abusive I was like, I believe you. Why don't you believe you? And so, it being new every time, it's like that client not being ready to leave, right? Not being ready, being afraid, um not knowing how to do it, being afraid of being alone.
(30:33) And I think a lot of it has to do with being afraid of being alone, especially if you were abandoned in childhood because it can really make you cling to a relationship, even one that you know you should leave. And I've had people in my masterminds, my therapy groups, straight up tell me, "I'd rather be with this person, even though sometimes it's really painful, than be alone.
(30:57) " And I think learning to be alone is a really important skill and a part of healing. I remember my own therapeutic process. My therapist gave me this homework that I needed to spend one night alone per week. And I was like, "I'm busy. I can't do that. What do you mean?" Like, I didn't I didn't get the value.
(31:15) I didn't get what she was talking about. And she was like, "Yeah, just try it. Let's try." And I got to the point where three weeks in a row, when I'm usually if somebody gives me a task, I'm doing that thing, normally. Three weeks in a row, I didn't do it. And she's like, "What are you afraid of?" And I was like, "My thoughts? I I didn't even know.
(31:33) " And when I finally did it, it was painful. I write about it in the book. I was like, "Who am I when I'm not when other people are not reflecting back to me who I am? Like, did I even know?" And I was in my twen- you know, my early to mid-20s at that point. And I feel like that's a normal, you know, coming to Jesus experience of like, "Who am I?" >> Mhm.
(31:56) >> "And who do I want to be?" But my way of not dealing was being so busy, being so productive, being so ambitious, right? I was leaping up the Hollywood ladder as well, right? So, all of these distractions to not do this work that I needed to do. Until it it was unavoidable because of how I was feeling in my life.
(32:22) I was so frustrated with the relationships I was in. And I got to a point where my mental health had gotten so much better. I'd been in therapy for over 10 years at that point. And I was like, "I don't want to get married. And I don't need to get married. Right? This My value is not that. And that that was all of this growth for me to be able to just be like, I love the life that I've created.
(32:46) >> Mhm. >> And if I'm going to partner with somebody permanently, they need to be able to teach me something. They need to be able to get, build, do something that I cannot do on my own cuz I'd already really kind of created this great life that I was very happy with. And that was the moment and that was sort of after through doing the father wound work, I was able to be like, why am I putting all this pressure on partnership when my experience so far of partnership hasn't been horrible but hasn't been something worth doing
(33:19) for the rest of my life, you know? >> It's interesting because you know, the work the work that you did um and and the place that you got to I mean, you could almost hear it and not um internalize the process of what we're talking about and the the crazy pull in that you feel when you're when you're not healthy to remain in these things, to continue to act out these patterns.
(33:48) I mean, one of the shows that I've been watching over the past few years is called Shrinking on on Apple TV. >> I actually haven't been watching it. So many people are like, you should watch it. >> Yeah, but it's interesting. I mean, it's a a therapy office. There's There's There's three of them, but there is this one story in there of this woman who literally just keeps going back to her abusive husband.
(34:07) And like like he hits her and she goes away and then they make some progress in the therapist's office. And then like she decides to like separate, but then somehow he finds his way back in and it's just what what is obvious to everybody else um even the therapists is like it's it's a comedy, so you you should have this therapist like trying to like intervene himself and like go to the house and like don't do that.
(34:31) But but just say it just this this picture this crazy pull to kind of repeat this stuff and how difficult it is to kind of chart another path when you're like in the middle of it. And the other thing that stuck out to me that you were saying is is the justifications. Um which was also present in the show but you know, oh well, I don't know maybe he's he's stressed or you know, maybe he did have a difficult childhood which maybe he did.
(34:59) Like maybe his childhood is is doing it or he was badly hurt in his last relationship. And so it seems like the justifications if this is taking up so much mental space seem to be like one of the primary drivers to to the cycle kind of to repeat. >> Yes and feeling like you are responsible for someone else's behavior, happiness.
(35:23) Right? The over responsibility which is really high functioning codependency. There's so much codependency in a lot of these relationships where you don't you feel responsible for their happiness. You're like, how can I leave them? They had a their father was so mean to them growing up or they had such an abusive childhood or they're so it's so hard he's trying.
(35:45) He's just not good emotionally, you know? And all I care about is what do you deserve? So the same way this book is not about anybody's father your relationship cannot be predicated on what's best for someone else. And when it is I'm promising you it is not a relationship that is in your highest and best. So one of the things you walk away with when you are healing is knowing that how you feel, what you think and what you want matters and for women and men too it needs to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels.
(36:29) And men feel like that's fine. And women feel like that's selfish. And it's not It doesn't mean you're not you not going to compromise. If you're in a long-term relationship, of course you're going to compromise. >> Yeah. >> But it's literally putting your preferences, limits, and deal breakers according to me, your boundaries.
(36:50) Asserting them. Caring about them. Not just going with the flow. If somebody says they're going to call you on Friday and then they call you Monday being like, "What's up?" Not just pretending they didn't say they were going to call you on Friday. "Oh, when you flaked on Friday, I just figured you got busy. But I wondered if you were okay.
(37:07) " Like, no. Why? So afraid. So much fear of rejection. And in my own personal story, which I tell in the book, this as I healed this wound and excavated all the experiences I had with my father and being the youngest daughter of a guy who should have had sons. And he had four daughters in 6 years, very young. You know, I always felt like I was born the wrong gender. That was my story.
(37:32) I call it your father wound racket. That was my racket, that I was born the wrong gender. Cuz if I was born a boy, it all would have been different. And then many, many years later, my mother was like, "Hi, why do you keep saying I do not think your father could have had four sons. I don't think he would have been remotely interested in them, either.
(37:49) " I was like, "Wow." But we do that. We make up stories as little kids to make a painful reality make more sense. Like, I was just trying to make sense of Everyone else thinks I'm amazing. Why does this guy ignore me? So, it must be because I was born the wrong gender, right? You just make it up. My mother was like, "That's literally not true." And lots of kids do this.
(38:12) This is very common. Where we just make up a narrative that can make sense to a reality that's very painful. >> So, if someone is sitting here and they're they're recognizing themselves [clears throat] in in a lot of the things that you're saying and and this entire clue that we've been going through. What would you want them to know? Like let's just say in their current reality with their current partner, what would you want them to know if there's like, "Oh, I had a great weekend.
(38:36) " And then all of a sudden I'm like on a little high from that. What would you want them to stop and recognize about that moment of this is this is all good right now? >> And here's the thing, you you can't take away. Sometimes you can have good moments. But will the bad moments and will the um lack of safety, because this is what we're talking about, being in relationships with a lack of safety.
(39:03) How can you build anything when you're with someone who will use sensitive information against you, who will say the meanest thing that they can think of, who will on you, who will harm you? That person is not someone you can really build a life with, I don't think. So, I feel like what I really want people to know is that there's hope to change what you're experiencing, not to change your partner.
(39:31) There's hope for you to heal this wound, to understand why you're tolerating things that you're tolerating. There is an exercise in one of my other books that which is just a list, like literally, what are you tolerating? Maybe somebody listening would want to make a list of what they're tolerating so you can see in black and white what you're putting up with.
(39:57) And you're probably putting up with it for very good reasons. Maybe it's familiar to you, maybe it's what you experienced in childhood with your own father, incredibly common. But you don't have to live like this. Their love does not have to be painful. Love does not have to be dramatic. It doesn't. Healthy love can be steady.
(40:18) Doesn't mean you never fight, but it definitely means that person is not saying the meanest thing that they can think of to you because in a healthy relationship, of course we all know what that is, but when you love somebody and you're healthy, you'd never do it. >> Mhm. >> Because they're your person.
(40:36) You're like, it's you and me against all those other people, right? Like I would never go for the jugular with my husband because he's my person. You know what I mean? >> Do people have language for this stuff? I mean, like what I mean by that is like uh the people that come into your practice, like if they do this exercise and and and they write these things down, can they pinpoint, "Oh, I've been I've been accepting this and and this has been happening and this is happening.
(41:03) " Or it's like there's a there's a blur of even being able to write that down. >> It's a good question, which is why what's most important are the right questions. Right? I always say like I'm I'm nobody's guru, but I am a damn good GPS to get people to their answers that they need to uncover and to reveal. So, that's what this whole all these exercises are about is answering the questions.
(41:30) How do you feel? What do you want? A lot of these are questions about childhood that you wouldn't think. We don't sit around all day talking about childhood normally, right? Like we we generally don't. I mean, if you're a therapist and you've had a lot of therapy, all right, maybe you and your friends do, but most people don't.
(41:48) We're in the here and now trying to make rent. We're we're busy. We're doing things. We're running a marathon or whatever people are doing. I want you to look at what isn't working in your life. What part where what are your pain points? Where are you frustrated? Where do you feel unknown and unseen or under appreciated? These will tell us.
(42:11) They act as these little markers of areas of your life that need your attention. And then we figure out, is that familiar? Is there an original injury attached to this behavior? We go back, we honor that, we write about that, we talk about that, you answer questions about that. We're moving on.
(42:31) When you get this stuff up and out, you're not burdened by it in the same way, and you don't have the same compulsion to repeat. Right? If we go back to the Freud's theory of repetition compulsion, because there's satisfaction in honoring the truth about what you experienced. And you don't have to vilify anyone. You don't need your father's participation.
(42:55) They don't even need to know. They could be dead, and you can still do this work because for once in your life, it's not about anyone else. Literally only about you. >> Why do you feel like some people uh like or or scoff at the idea of childhood stuff influence influencing their their present.
(43:18) I mean, it's like it's something that we've heard about more in the last 10 years, certainly than in the previous probably 30 before that. >> Yep. >> But at some level it's like we want to explain it away or make it not be that reason. >> Well, I was the queen of thinking that child, you know, inner child work before I became a psychotherapist, I was like, Okay.
(43:43) Like I literally was not a believer. Then I became a therapist. And I was like, oh my god. Like I had done my own inner child work, but as a modality or thinking that it was an important thing, I really didn't. And then I started working with clients, and I was like, it's literally mandatory. We cannot ignore traumatic or dramatic experiences from childhood when ignoring them perpetuates them in your present life.
(44:13) Which is what happens. So, I don't I'm not interested in going back to third grade. Let's talk about that for a year. No. We're only going back if something that happened in third grade is planting seeds for your misery today. >> Yeah. >> Right? So, if we can fix that, you can change this.
(44:30) And those two things, I mean, listen, I've been doing this for almost 30 years. I promise you they are connected. >> We have a pretty clear picture of, you know, some people can recognize some of the people they're drawn to, the chemistry, the love bombing, the, you know, keep going getting these relationships and then maybe even you're getting out of them and then it's just not working for you.
(44:51) And so, that maybe that's why somebody finds their way into your office. And then, of course, you have the abusive component, the the staying in a relationship that's incredibly toxic. Um so, I I wanted to explore what you're talking about about the origins, about how love started to feel like that in the first place. Um you know, you've explained the father wound.
(45:10) And it seems like there is like a pivotal story moment um around a Father's Day card, which I think is is really interesting in your own story. Tell me about that and the the significance to everything that we've been talking about. Well, when I was younger, right? Father's Day would come around and be weird because when you have a non-existent relationship with the person you're supposed to have this incredibly important relationship with, but you don't.
(45:37) So, you know, I would every year I'd go to try to find a freaking card and just be like, "You taught me everything there was to know about life. Thank God." Nope. "You were always there for me. Thank God." Nope. There was never a card that made I wanted a card that didn't say like, "World's greatest dad" on it when I knew, even as a 10-year-old, that he was most definitely not.
(46:04) So, there was that that awkwardness. All my sisters and I knew about my father was that he golfed, that he drank wine. You know why? Cuz it's 5:00 somewhere. So, it could be like 12:00 noon on a Sunday. Trust me. Um and that he really wasn't around. He was very successful. He retired when he was 50. But the pivotal moment was the realization that this guy literally doesn't know me and doesn't want to. And that's painful.
(46:38) >> When you're 5 years old, do you register that as my father is emotionally unavailable? >> No, no. No, well that I I open the the book with a story of I was very hopeful when I was 4 and 1/2, 5 years old. And I was like, "Okay, so my mother and my sisters, I have three older sisters, think I'm amazing. So, this guy just hasn't been around.
(46:59) He just doesn't know." So, he's watching sports with his wine at 12:00 noon on a Sunday. He's watching golf and I'm like, "Okay, I just made a decision. I'm going to go and I'm going to sit on his lap until he talks to me." So, I come down my basement steps and he's 6'2", huge, like he was a basketball player. Had these long legs.
(47:17) He's got his feet up on the ottoman. He's got like shorts on. And I jump up and I'm like, "Hey, Dad." And he's like just gives me a like head nod. This guy had never talked. Can I tell you we would take a car ride and if he wanted you to roll up the window, and keep in mind we were terrified of him. He would go like this.
(47:38) So, you Those of you listening, he's pointing and doing the roll up the window. This is how old I am is that there were no automatic windows. You were manually rolling up the window or if you were kicking the back of the seat, he would point at you and like put his hand across his neck and like stop doing that.
(47:53) >> Mhm. >> Literally, he would do that to me. I would be like crying in the backseat being so afraid of him. So, I sat there >> [clears throat] >> and he watched sports. And I sat for an hour. And then I sat for 2 hours. And I was trying to like I was actually synchronizing my breath so not to be breathing in his wine breath, which was already happening.
(48:12) And then after then I was hungry and went and got a snack and I came back. But that was a pivotal moment for me. I thought for sure he would be powerless against my charms. For sure. I was like, if I sit here for 4 hours, he's definitely going to fall in love with me and be like, I am now #girldad, can't wait. Going to be amazing.
(48:33) Obviously, that did not happen. But it taught me something about myself that I was patient. That I was willing to do what it took cuz I didn't you would think was that a moment that then did then did you give up? Absolutely not. I was like, okay, so achievement is the route. I was hoping there'd be another way, but the only way to get his attention was doing well in school and becoming successful and then that is the route that I ended up going.
(49:01) But what does that do to a child, right? What does that do to a kid? It makes you first of all, think that you're someone who's not that important and that you're not really worth protecting because if you think about the older school idea of what what are dads supposed to be doing with daughters? Teaching you how to be in the world.
(49:21) Being protective of you. Not like psycho, but just protective, caring. And those things when they don't happen, you end up in relationships with people who are also not protecting you. Lot of times it was people I should have been protecting myself from, but didn't know how because I was so it was all about um >> [clears throat] >> acceptance and people pleasing and validation and being of service because that's what I knew how to do.
(49:48) >> So, what did the your the relationship with your father teach you about love? >> You got to work for it. That you are not inherently worthy. You are as valuable as what you produce. >> Mhm. >> So, that's exhausting. >> So, then when when you are an adult and you meet a man who's at at best probably unhealthy at worst toxic, how does how then does adult Terry start recreating that? >> Taking over everything.
(50:23) Doing all the heavy lifting, doing all the emotional labor, making sure they have everything they need. Doing all the work to in the house, you know, one of my boyfriends I lived with, you know, just just making sure. Always focused out. This inability to take your own gorgeous gaze and turn it in. Because I was so um wounded.
(50:48) And this was like the the do-over, right? These relationships represent this perhaps this time it's going to be different this time. I promise you that it was going to be different this time. >> Like a project. >> Oh. Like a project, but like proof. It's going to be different this time. I'm going to prove that I am worthy enough to hold this relationship.
(51:11) But all at the expense of myself, all self-abandonment. Very incredibly common with women in my crew. For sure. Being last on our own list is definitely incredibly common. >> So, I mean like what once you So, once you're in these situations I can imagine it's like feels very strangely natural. >> Of course. >> So, it's like it's like fitting into a shoe that just feels really comfy and good.
(51:37) >> Yep. Even if it makes you unhappy. But that familiarity can be very um make you feel secure. It can feel cozy. So, we are confusing a good relationship with what's familiar. Right? Because it's what we've experienced. Why was I >> That's such a weird like for a human being though, like what like what is it about familiarity? Like of all the organizing principles that you could have your entire life to just go back to the familiar.
(52:10) It's like >> Okay, but look at look at us from a physiological point of view. Let's look at cave people. Right? Anything that wasn't familiar was dangerous. Right? They stayed in the same places and if they moved, there's this risk of being killed. Anything new was more dangerous than what you knew. So, again, this is also human nature is that we are drawn to the familiar.
(52:36) We have There's comfort in the people hate the unknown. Do you know anyone who likes the unknown? We make up all these ways of making ourselves not have to know that it's unknown, even though it's all unknown. >> Yeah, no, that makes sense when you start I guess when if you really think about it through like other aspects of life, walking into a strange city versus walking into a city, oh, I know to go left and go right and then up I'm home.
(53:01) >> Right. >> like you're not lost. >> in your body? Different. >> Yeah. >> One is relaxed, masterful, even if it's not your favorite city. But you don't have that insecure feeling or that going to get it wrong feeling or that making a left turn at the wrong place and being in a bad neighborhood feeling.
(53:20) Like that fear of making a mistake. People do not like the unknown and yet obviously the truth is it is literally all unknown. >> Which is interesting because the I guess in some ways where that analogy would break is like at some level you're miscalculating, misfiring that you meet someone that is unknown and they have a healthy set of traits and they're doing something differently and you find it to be threatening.
(53:49) >> Mhm. >> Uh then obviously at that point the familiar I think to you is not it's not serving you. >> Oh yeah, I mean so so much of this awareness raising that we're doing even just talking about it and what I'm then I do in the book is raising your awareness that just because something feels familiar doesn't mean it's good for you.
(54:09) And you really have to look at your I mean a lot of we do a whole relationship history thing in the book too because we need to look at listen, you have proof. >> [snorts] >> You're you're you have receipts of your whole life of the choices you've made, the relationships you've been in, the things that you've done.
(54:26) So it's kind of important even if you're young to really look and go, "Okay. >> [clears throat] >> So what was going on in that relationship? How was I relating to that person? Was I tolerating something bad? Was I being a um an untrustworthy person? Like what what was happening because we really have to look at the data that we have of our relationships.
(54:53) Do we always end up in a relationship with someone who's unavailable, let's say? Why is that? Uh trust me, there's reasons why. I give you questions you can answer but a lot of it is who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? Why is this behavioral dynamic I'm trying to get their attention, they're pulling their attention away? Why is that familiar to me? Maybe you saw it in your family of origin, maybe it was the way you related to your father, could have been the way your parents related.
(55:20) But one thing that I can promise you that when you understand that whatever you're experiencing especially if it's painful and it's repeated, if you find yourself in a similar situation over and over, there is a historical something that needs your attention. Because you're not a masochist. It's not because of that.
(55:43) >> It's interesting because the linkage to the past in some ways I can imagine people explaining that away. I mean, part of that you you spoke about how you and your sister experienced the same father, but adopted differently. So, let's just say you're listening to this conversation and you might think, "Well, that can't really be him because my sister seems fine and doesn't really struggle with the same issues as me.
(56:11) " Um how does that happen? And what how would you respond to that? >> I mean, I actually quote um Marion Woodman Bouquet in the book who has a book about breaking generational um trauma cycles and toxic cycles. Be- what she says, "Every child is raised in a different family even when you're raised in the same family because your lineup in the we are you firstborn? Are you youngest? Are you a middle child? Your parents are so different.
(56:38) My parents parented me very different. I'm the youngest, my sister's the oldest. Right? You're you're having a different situation. Then you have your personality. So, nature and nurture both influence what you experience. And then you have family systems where there's favoritism. Where you may have had a father who favored the boys, let's say, in a family and not the girls or the girls and not the boys, right? There's there's all all things that happen.
(57:05) So, all of those identifying factors and experiences make a difference as to what happens in your life. And you you know, you're right to say that some people will say you'll have even with coaching, right? Coaching is very forward leaning. >> Yep. >> Where it's like, "We don't need that. Just change your your mind.
(57:24) " And I I'm a big believer in I think we can change our minds about many things. But if there was no reason to go back, if it wasn't required in my therapeutic work, I never would cuz it's kind of boring. I'd rather I'd rather go forward, too. But if you keep finding yourself in a repeated situation, that that is you.
(57:44) Right? It can't all be other people. It's not your boss, your girlfriend, your best friend. >> Yeah. >> You are the common denominator in what is or isn't happening in your life. And so there's a responsibility. But I feel like that's a really powerful and positive thing, which means if it's you, you can change it. If it's you, you can pivot.
(58:04) If it's you, you can heal it. If it's you, you can decide you're going to do something completely different in your life. >> The favoritism thing is interesting to me because I mean no parent will say, "I loved my one kid more than my other." I mean, like no one will ever say that. >> But we all know. >> So you really think that's true? >> Of course it is.
(58:27) >> So you really think like the parent actually did love one kid over or over >> It's not love. It's you have kids who are easier and you have kids who are harder. You have kids who are more aligned with you humor-wise, personality-wise. You have kids who are just difficult. So do you love them less? No. You enjoy them less.
(58:50) You have less in common with them. That's reality. It doesn't mean you love them less. But you grow up and you know. You know who was the easy kid. And who was the kid who was projectively vomiting, you know what I mean? And that's that's real talk. Parents love to be like, "I love everyone equally." I believe that's probably true.
(59:10) Do you enjoy them equally? Probably not. >> Chad, do you feel like your father felt about you? >> [sighs] >> Not much, honestly. I felt like I was one person that he could be proud of cuz I was the first person to go to college. I was the first the only person to get an advanced degree. You know, I I was doing all the things to make myself special.
(59:32) So that I would be his favorite or something. But it didn't really It was a little too little, a little too late, right? Because all of the formative years was all the neglect. So even though I was still seeking it, that didn't heal my father wound. Right? And when people say I have a great relationship with my father now, I'm like, you know who doesn't give a about that? Your 7-year-old.
(59:56) Your 10-year-old. Your 12-year-old who didn't have a great relation with him or I have a lot of clients whose fathers will get sober and they're like, but now we have a great relation, which is great. But that doesn't heal. If you If you were finding him in the driveway with the car in neutral at 3:00 a.m.
(1:00:14) when you were eight because he was wasted, that still happened to you. And that still matters and that still needs to be honored and integrated. >> You mentioned this briefly in in the beginning, but to to revisit it a little bit more, you developed something where you were trying to achieve to get attention. >> Mhm. >> But what are like what would be the most common things people start doing maybe besides that? >> Mhm.
(1:00:43) >> Then recreating. >> Well, when we have What are symptoms of having a father wound or unhealed father wound? Perfectionism is one. Uh high achieving is very common, certainly in my world, because it's a way of controlling something. Right? We feel like And and you're getting all this positive feedback.
(1:01:01) And why I call it an invisible wound is because often these are women who are like CFOs, CEOs, like >> Yeah. >> basically running the world. Nobody's looking and being like, "Hope they're okay. Hope they're not suffering inside." Because it looks like they've got it locked down. And again, that also is a barrier to entry because women feel embarrassed that they either can't figure out the love thing or that they have this huge job and they're miserable.
(1:01:27) You know, so over functioning, over giving, um the hyper independence we already talked about, the hyper vigilance of being so tuned in to other people. This is like a safety thing, but what do you think that does to your nervous system of being on high alert for decades? It's not good, which I include all these nervous system exercises in the book because we need to normalize taking care of our very jacked nervous systems, most of us.
(1:01:56) >> Now, in the beginning we were talking about it's [clears throat] it's happening in your subconscious. You're just moving through the world, you're getting activated, you're getting drawn the chemistry, all this stuff. Now, these realizations, maybe even in this conversation, surface as an adult, you know.
(1:02:12) They could bring up anger and grief, resentment about what you didn't get. Uh and for you, that eventually led to a 19-page letter to your father. Uh so, take me into what was happening at that point in your life, what you were trying to say to him, and then what happened after you sent it. >> I was in college, and my father gave my sister and I a car to share, which makes no sense.
(1:02:38) So, I was in Long Island, my sister was in Jersey. It was like a the most inappropriate It was a Fiat X19. It was like the most inappropriate car. But anyway, and my father, out of nowhere, we were visiting him, which was always awkward, right? We would go visit him at his apartment that had like outside furniture for furni- you know, it was like so not cozy where he lived.
(1:02:57) And he just, out of nowhere, said, "Um you're not taking the car back to school cuz I don't want you commuting to see your high school boyfriend." And I was like, this guy hasn't said a word to me in like 5 years. What? And I was so pissed. What happened for me was it was just more proof this does not know me at all.
(1:03:17) I'm ditching that high school boyfriend and you don't care to know me. You don't know me. So, anyway, I leave I run out of his house, which is very unlike this I come from a very WASPy family. This is very unlike me and very unlike us. I ran down the road and my oldest sister finally catches like, "Dude, you have to come back.
(1:03:35) " I'm like, "Oh, no." I came back and my father was so shocked by my acting out. I didn't even say anything. I just ran out of the house. He was like, "Okay, fine. You can take it back." I'm like, again, missing the point. Having no idea why I'm upset, not even being able to care why I'm upset.
(1:03:52) So, that hence I went back to school and I wrote him a 19-page letter and said everything. Everything I wanted to say, all the ways he disappointed me, all the and I got a little spicy. I was like, "Yeah, man, you're going to be a lonely old man if you don't get it together. How could you not want to know me?" I don't I don't It's so painful.
(1:04:09) I don't get it. And you have a chance to turn it around. You might want to think about turning it around. Okay. So, I tell my mother [snorts] that I sent him a 19-page letter and she was like, "Okay, babe, um don't be sad when he acts like he didn't get it cuz he's definitely going to act like he didn't get it.
(1:04:28) " I was like, "Unbelievable." Fine. So, he didn't didn't say a word to me about getting my 19-page letter, although I know he got it. And then suddenly he started changing a little bit. He started sending me like these little cards that were like, "Dear Terry, happy spring. Love, Dad." Like he was so emotionally stunted.
(1:04:48) He literally had the emotional IQ of a snake. He really did. But there was this sweetness in this effort that I started to see from him when I asserted myself, even though it was terrifying. I was so scared to do it. But I did it. Now, I'm not suggesting we don't all need to send a 19-page letter to our dad, but that shifted something and it made me realize that I could have potentially an impact on what happened in our relationship.
(1:05:18) >> What happens when you you finally have to say everything you need to say? I mean, and you and the person doesn't give you the acknowledgement that you want cuz he didn't fully acknowledge it. >> Oh, no. >> And you know, he he gives you this these little micro things. >> Mhm. >> So, this applies to your situation, but maybe someone doesn't even get that.
(1:05:37) >> Mhm. But your healing is in the asserting. Your healing is in having the courage to honor how you feel and saying it. Even if you're scared, even if you're shaking, even if you're sweating. Right? Because it isn't about what they do. It's about what are we doing to assert what we want, to tell the truth.
(1:06:05) And listen, I don't suggest, right? So much of the way that I wrote this book, right? That was that was when I was 19 years old that happened, right? When I I was in college. Obviously, I've had a million years of therapy and I've been a therapist for almost 30 years. So, my suggestion is I leave any involvement with your father to the very end of the book.
(1:06:23) To the very end. So, I did an addendum. I added everything. People, if you go you finish chapter 10 and you go I feel complete. Then you close the book and you are complete. If you get to chapter 10 and you go, my father's still really intrusive, I need better boundaries, what do I do? I go, go to chapter 211.
(1:06:43) Um my father died, but I really feel like I need to honor him in some way. I need some secret um traditional something to do. Great. You need a ritual? Go to page one 210, whatever it is. So, I came up with all of the scenarios that these women had shared with me in that group of 650 women of where they were in their journeys with their father after they had done the work.
(1:07:09) This is after they had done a course that I had created. You know, after. And some people are like, my father's totally toxic. I want to go no contact. And trust me, that is a last resort. When people love to be like, everyone's just cutting people off left and right. Well, not in my therapy practice. And maybe they are.
(1:07:25) Maybe a younger generation is, I don't know. But I feel like anyone who's gone no contact has tried 8 million times to not do that. But I walk you through how to do that. So, it's almost like a choose your own adventure or your own situation, because I didn't want to just leave people hanging. Right? They if they're if they want to have a better relation with their father.
(1:07:47) And also in that addendum, I give you questions that you can ask other people. Like what I did after my father died is I asked my mother, "Hey mom, why do you think he was so stunted emotionally? Why was he the way he was?" And she said, "Terry, listen, I don't know, but I can tell you that something happened when he was a senior in high school.
(1:08:07) " So, my father was a basketball star and so was his best friend, and they were coming back from a game and they flipped a coin to see who would drive and who would get to sleep in the back. And my father lost the toss and was driving, got into an accident, it was snowy, it was a bridge, and his best friend died. Now, he lived in this teeny town in upstate New York and his best friend's mother publicly blamed my father.
(1:08:29) Super humiliation, sort of being like exiled, like it was a bad situation. He said he was never the same again. I did not know that. Now, when I was in the beginning of my process, I couldn't have considered that, right? Because that's an excuse. That's letting him off the hook. That's being like, my pain doesn't matter because he killed his best friend.
(1:08:51) So, I don't bring any of these things in until the end, once you've done the work, but it is helpful to know more. The context of who your father might have been or who your father is can be helpful for your healing if you're not using it as a reason to self-abandon. So, I also give you a bunch of questions that you can ask people if your father is deceased, you can ask people in his life.
(1:09:15) Um we found out that my father was doing taxes like he would hang out at this bar that he called his office. I would literally call a phone at a bar. I'd be like, "Hello, uh Bill Cole, please?" They're like, "Uh yeah, he's right here drinking his martinis." And found out from his uh long-term girlfriend that he was doing taxes for helping all these people, all his barfly friends. He was doing their taxes.
(1:09:37) He lent someone money to send their kid to college. Like all these things that showed all of this compassion and empathy that of course we never saw, but I was still gratefully had it inside his body and had it in his life. So, those were things that were helpful to find out after the fact, but I never suggest we do that early on because early on it really just have to be eyes on your own paper, focusing on you and your experience.
(1:10:02) >> When you get to the the the end of this process, I mean I I imagine it's a lifelong thing, but when you get to the the latter stages of this, can you actually heal without ever receiving an apology? >> Oh, yeah. 100%. I've helped I mean, I feel like it's thousands of women at this point. A lot of women, your father has passed away already.
(1:10:23) You don't need them. You don't need them to heal. You need to honor what you experienced to heal. And if you can change your relationship, if that's on the table for you, if that's possible, I walk you through how to do it, right? But you really don't. >> You spoke about estrangement. It Why do you You said last resort.
(1:10:46) >> Mhm. >> A lot of people are going to that as a first resort. Why why would it maybe not be beneficial to do that as a first resort? >> Because it's exhausting, first of all. Being estranged, people think it's easy. It's not energetically, you are still connected to this person. Right? There's no resolution.
(1:11:09) If you're If you are estranged, if you are have gone no contact, which is different than low contact. There's all different levels of involvement. You have a right to have boundaries and of how close or far you want this person to be to your most tender heart, for sure as a grown-up, that's your job to figure that out.
(1:11:27) But estrangement isn't easy. Going no contact is hard work, and it is appropriate for some people. If you are in a relationship with someone who was actively damaging you right now, and you're a grown-up, you have to limit their access to you. I don't think I don't know that you have to go no contact. Maybe you do.
(1:11:48) No judgment. Like that's why no size fits all ever when it comes to mental health stuff. There just isn't because situations are so unique, you know? >> So, how did your relationship with your father end up unfolding for the rest of your life? >> Well, we He didn't live that long. So, I'm glad that I had the interactions that I did.
(1:12:08) One of the the biggest interactions that I had that was pivotal and changing was I was graduating grad school, and I said to my therapist, Bev, "I'm not inviting my father to my grad school graduation." And she was like, "Uh why? Do you not want him to come?" I go, "Oh, no, cuz he won't come." And she said, "But that's not the point.
(1:12:25) The Do you want him to come?" And I'm like, "Uh yeah. I worked a full-time job and somehow managed to graduate from NY- Yeah, I do want him to come, and I want him to be proud. That is correct." And so, she said, "Okay, so your homework is, when you go visit him" I was literally going the next week, "you're going to ask him to come.
(1:12:44) " I go, "What How does it make sense that I'm going to ask him to come when I know he's going to say no cuz he hates New York City. He couldn't deal with it even though he used to work in the city." And she said, "Because your healing is in the asking and in the asserting, not in what he does." And I was like, "Are you sure?" And she was like, "I'm positive.
(1:13:03) " All right, so now I have my homework. So, it's I was there for 3 days. It's the last day. He's driving me to the airport. I still haven't done it. So, now I It's literally 2 minutes to go. I'm like, "I just have to do it." I was like, "Uh hey Dad." He's like, "Yeah." I was like, "Um I got an extra ticket for NYU graduation and NYU if you want to come.
(1:13:19) " He was like, "Uh I can't." I go, "Okay." He goes, "Uh here comes the guilt." Which blew my mind. I was like, "I've never guilted you a day in my life and trust me, I could have." Like, what? Anyway. That's what he said? He said, "Here comes the guilt." Well, I was like, "You've got to be kidding me.
(1:13:39) You should be guilty as hell." Anyway, I said, "Honestly though," I said, "Dad, no guilt. I understand it's a lot. I understand it's too much. Mom will be there. All my sisters will be there. It's okay. I understand, but nobody can replace you. You I'm going to cry. are my only father. Like there's no one who can replace you. And I wanted to tell him that.
(1:14:09) He was like, "Uh okay." He didn't know what to say. But as we were leaving, he hugged me way longer than he normally would have. Normally, he'd be like awkward hug. He was really held on. And then I decided I got home and I was like, I called him and said, "Hey, I'm going to call you every Sunday.
(1:14:27) " Which he used to do with his father. And he was like, "Um okay." I was like, "Okay, bye." So, I started calling him every Sunday, having literally the most awkward conversations. And I didn't care. I was like, "You know what? I want to have a relationship with this guy." And I remember telling him about some boyfriend I was dating at the time and I was like, "Every time he leaves my apartment, I just feel really sad.
(1:14:51) " And he did not like this guy and he goes, "What's your problem, pal?" Like, you know, he had no advice. He had no idea what was going on. But, it was something that I wanted to do. And then, I meet then my We pick back up on the story with Vic, which I will get to. Um and they were going to meet in that August, and my father ended up having to go back to Florida, and then he dropped dead of a heart attack um in November.
(1:15:23) And so, I probably had like I don't know. It was February to November where I was talking to him every week. It was like something really shifted, and I never ever regret it asking him to my graduation, because it opened up a conversation that some people would look at and be like, "Not much happened in that conversation.
(1:15:43) " But, everything happened for the child within me in that conversation where I just grew up. I just grew a pair of big ovaries to say the thing, like, "You're my only fa- Like, I wanted to say that all my life. Like, you can think that you can just like delegate this to Mom. She is amazing, but she's not you.
(1:16:05) " Right? And there was something so healing in me being the grown-up who could take care of the little kid within me. Even if it wasn't the outcome I wanted perfectly, of course not. But, I didn't just let it go. I really felt like I fought for myself, and that changed how I thought about myself, how I thought about being a grown-up in the world.
(1:16:28) Like, I really something really shifted in that experience. And you know what? Bev, my very smart therapist, was right. Your healing is in asserting. Is in the asking. It's not really in what the other person does. It's what are you doing to get your needs met? >> What role, if any, did forgiveness play in that for you? I mean, cuz this is feels like a it feels like a radioactive topic with this.
(1:16:56) Um I at one level, you know, if you're coming from a more spiritual religious context, like, you know, people are like, "Oh, it gets forced onto you." I could see like there's there's tremendous benefit in in forgiveness and the release of forgiveness, but then also like there's ways that this could get like misapplied and end up being backfired.
(1:17:18) And so, how did that play a role for you? >> I don't frame it as forgiveness. Right? I frame it as healing so we can release ourselves from resentment prison. Right? Because my father's limitation isn't something it forgiveness is so twisted up with religion that I'm I mean, from a therapeutic point of view, I literally never talk about it.
(1:17:47) I don't because to me the new forgiveness is about how resentful do I want to go through my life being? How long do I want this to live rent-free in my brain? How long am I going to talk about what I didn't get? I'm not. I'm going to do exactly what I did. I'm going to heal. I'm going to thrive.
(1:18:13) I'm going to accept what was, but I'm going to honor it. Right? I'm not just going to accept it. I'm going to talk about it. Um this is how we weave it into the tapestry of our lives. It can't just be this separate experience where people are like, "That was then, this is now." No, man. Then infiltrates now. I don't make it that way.
(1:18:32) That's just the way it is. So, I feel like it's a wish to be like, "Then didn't happen. No, then happened. And then becomes your reality now. Especially if you really had traumatic experiences in childhood, there's no way I don't think, and I think Frank Anderson would agree with me that we need to honor our childhood experiences, especially the traumatic ones, in order to then not be frozen in time and to not have that imprint still on our bodies.
(1:19:04) We'll always be sensitive to it. But there's a way to release ourselves from that resentment prison. So anyway, that that's my theoretical take on non-forgiveness. I call it the new forgiveness. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, I mean at some level that would be the way that I'm interpreting what you're saying, at some level that would be semantics because um the the there's a there's a practice or concept underneath that word that we're calling it that could feel very loaded to people.
(1:19:34) >> Yes. And like you have to involve the other person and that there's got to be conversations and that you need to say I forgive you. Like I don't think that is it. I don't think that's the way to go. Some people do. I just don't. I feel like it's you taking care of your internal experience. And I feel it's interesting.
(1:19:54) With my father I I really never held a ton of rage or anger. It was disappointment. It was pain. It was sadness. It was hurt. Was more my experience of it. Where I was like, this dude is limited. I feel like if he could have done better, he would have. He did not have the skills and he didn't work to get them.
(1:20:18) He drank instead and that was, you know, that's a choice, too. But I've never I don't feel I'm not mad at him now. And I I don't know. I mean, when I wrote my 19-page letter when I was 19, I was very mad. But then through the many years, when you go through and unpack all the experiences, I don't know, for me it shifted into having a deeper understanding once I honored what I experienced though.
(1:20:40) And I feel like we can't bypass that part of the process. >> Yeah, I think the process is is an important word because I mean I Yeah, I almost see these like two paths with with the forgiveness thing which is which is and this is why it can be so like difficult and toxic if you if you talk about it in such a binary way cuz it's like oh, we're going to forgive and then that gives them license to continue to abuse you which if you're on your process if you're early in the process and like what you were saying earlier is
(1:21:12) that that could be that could be the person actually excusing the the toxic abusive relationship that they're in. Oh, it it was a childhood room. Oh, >> And why it feels [clears throat] so bad to someone who's been victimized. It's like you're letting someone get away with something. Now, do we want to hold on to that toxic anger for the rest of our lives for us as What does Buddha say? You know, drinking poison expecting the other person to die? No.
(1:21:36) We shouldn't. But that's my take. I mean, listen, other people have different opinions but you need to forgive someone who sexually abused you? Literally, no. You don't. >> But you do need to release that at some level. >> Release the resentment that's poisoning you. Their karma that's them.
(1:21:57) That's that's you over there. Now, it's more complicated than that because a lot of people are still in relationships with people like that. They have to the family. Nobody talks about it. It's a hidden you know, that's a whole that's a whole other episode, my friend. >> Yeah, cuz I mean the cuz the process of like the excusing of it but then you got to this place and you're where you're at now and you could see and Frank talked about this on his podcast with his father.
(1:22:25) He was like he could see the woundedness in him. His father was like frail at the end of life and he saw this like wafer of a man and he could see the the the and then he could also see how generationally wounds get perpetuated and how the abuse that he sustained potentially as as a kid then was then the perpetuated on Frank which then Frank ends up breaking that cycle to a degree.
(1:22:56) And that's not happening anymore but it's kind of like this like cyclical thing and so I don't know. But I I think if you like if you don't get there at some level is and you can't see that um and and you're you still are holding on to those feelings of like anger and resentment which by the way is probably like toxic for you like nervous system wise at some level to to be in that state.
(1:23:24) >> Yeah, but here's the thing. You have a right to your anger and your rage. And we don't want to do it forever and ever but I think that we have to be very very careful with the way we talk about this that we're not victim blaming that we're not being like don't be angry blah. Of course you're going to be angry if you were abused obviously.
(1:23:48) I'm angry for you so we we get it. It's how do I process that experience? How do I transmute that? How do I change that? How do I honor? And we don't bypass it. We have to talk about it. We have to tell the truth about what happened for us and that's one of the beginning things that I talk about in the book. This is about raising your awareness about what you really experienced and allowing yourself the full gamut of those feelings.
(1:24:19) Because you're right. Do we want to stay pissed off forever? No. But, we also can't rush the process of honoring what we experienced in our lives. And here's the thing, this book isn't You will have people who had good dads, but you were raised in a patriarchy, and this book is for you, too. This is not a book only for people who had like horrendous egregious experiences.
(1:24:42) Yes, it's for you, but it's also for those of you who had the 1950s and '60s dad who were like Mad Men, drinking all the time, and having nothing to do with their kids. This is a very common experience, depending on what age you're at. So, what I really care about is what are your pain points? Where are you frustrated in your life now? And are those original injuries that you need to get back to, if it's a father wound? Is that going to be the thing that liberates you from this repetition relationally that's not working for you
(1:25:12) now, or any other repetition? >> Mhm. So, I mean, that's really getting at a lot of the stuff with the original wound. >> Mhm. >> Um and so it almost could feel like you're you're kind of carrying two burdens at once. And what I mean by that is like, so there's the original pain from the relationship with the father.
(1:25:34) >> Mhm. >> And then there are all the ways the pain is showing up in the present. >> Mhm. >> Uh and who you choose, what you tolerate, how you trust, how you behave in relationships. >> Mhm. >> So, do those two things have to be worked on separately? The present and the past? >> What happens is, when we start to really focus on and get committed to our healing in a real way, you spend a decent amount of time, especially in this book, first half of the book, we spend in the past.
(1:26:03) Because how I We need receipts. We need to know what happened. We need to deal with what happened. We need to write it out. We need to do all the things. So, you may still be in a difficult situation in the present, but what starts happening is as you start excavating these toxic wounds that need your attention, your present also starts changing.
(1:26:24) What you want to tolerate, how you feel about the way you're interacting. My what I tolerated changed drastically as I was going through this process of really healing this wound. Where I realized like I thought I needed to be partnered and I really came to and I'm not saying that's for everyone, but that was just my realization was that I really didn't need to.
(1:26:49) That I really was okay and happy by myself. Like it was okay. And that was something that I felt like it was a societal thing. This whole your value is your partnered and you have children and you you do this traditional thing and if not, oh poor single women with cats, whatever, whatever, right? All of that stuff.
(1:27:08) So I was able to through the healing process reject that and go, "No, I'm not settling for a guy who doesn't know the difference between a feeling and a frankfurter." Like that's that's who I was dealing with. People who had no insight into themselves, did not know what activated them, did not, you know? It's so boring.
(1:27:26) I was so uninterested. And as soon as I let that go, that process, that need, I felt so much happier in my life. I was like, "This is amazing." I was traveling, I was doing my thing. And then Vic came back into my life and I hadn't seen him in about 2 and 1/2 years. Except I kept trying to set him up with other women because I was like, "Oh, he's not for me, but somebody else.
(1:27:49) " And the first time I'd seen him in probably in maybe 2 and 1/2 or 3 years, um he had called me, the guy who David, um said, "Can Vic call you? He's having a terrible breakup right now. Can you're almost a therapist?" Cuz I was just graduating grad school. "Can he call you?" I said, "Yeah, yeah.
(1:28:04) " So we ended up talking and talked him off the ledge or whatever. And then he said, "Let me take you out to dinner just as friends." And I said, "Great. Let me invite one of my friends and we'll invite David too. So again, I'm still trying to fix him up >> [snorts] >> with my friend who's 10 years older than me. She really wanted to have a kid.
(1:28:17) I was like, I don't know. May- maybe you'll She goes, "Well, which one do you like?" I go, "No, neither. They're both just my friend." So we go to Joe's on the Upper West Side at 73rd and Amsterdam and I'm sitting there and I look out this window and it was like this pane glass window and I see this person walking by and I'm like, "Who the is that? Who is that? White t-shirt, you know, Levi's, just long hair.
(1:28:41) Looked completely different than look physically than the last time I saw him. Really tan, little John Lennon glasses. I was like, "Who's this guy?" Comes in and to my great surprise, it was Vic. And I was like, "First of all, why did I invite her? Get out." I It was like I had never seen him before. And I hadn't seen him in 2 and 1/2 years.
(1:29:01) >> Mhm. >> He did grow his hair. He did look different. But I was different. Is really what happened. So we're sitting there at this dinner and we go outside to smoke. Don't judge. It was the '90s. Everybody smoked. Um and he was like, "Uh I don't Can I just say whatever you're doing is really agreeing with you?" I was like, "Um I was going to say the same thing.
(1:29:21) " He's like, "Do you want to dish dish these people?" I was like, "Yeah." So we end up going downtown. Listen, he's like, "Want to go see jazz?" I was like, "Definitely." Even though I hate jazz, but I was like, "But I like you, so I will." We end up having the second So that night I was like, "I don't even know what is happening, but whatever this is, I literally think I want to do it every day for the rest of my life.
(1:29:42) " We were both super smitten. The next date, he says to me and this was a pivotal moment and really for me changed everything. He said, "What do you really want in a relationship? Like really." And I was like, "Well, here's the moment. I can either perform and be like, 'Whatever. Easy breezy, you know.
(1:30:05) '" Whatever I had done in the past when someone asked me. I was like, but I'm not doing that. Cuz here's the thing, I don't care. If this guy is not for me, great. It doesn't matter. This will be the last date, not a problem. So, I just literally listed Oh, in a perfect relationship, I want someone who has a funded retirement account, who owns their own home, who's willing to buy a second house with me on a lake, who would consider having a kid, who's had 20 years of therapy, who I mean, I just I had a long list.
(1:30:32) >> [snorts] >> And I literally said everything. Um I want someone who accepts me the way I am. I had so many boyfriends where like, could you curse less? You know what? off. No. Um can you wear less makeup? Can you Do you know what I mean? Like this these ways of trying to make you smaller.
(1:30:50) I was like, I want someone who's not threatened by my career. Cuz I had so many experiences like that. I just said it all. When I got to the end, I was like, uh how's that sound? And in his very cool Pisces way, he just said, Sounds good. And I've been with him ever since, and it was almost 30 years ago. >> Wow. What a what a kind of turnaround in the story arc there.
(1:31:16) I mean, to to go from those two things, and even the immediate attraction that you were feeling, I think is is so telling versus what was what was happening previously. >> It was so visceral. It was undeniable. And people used to say, you know when people say, oh, you'll just know. I always hated that. I was always like, I'm never going to just know.
(1:31:35) That's so annoying. Stop saying that. And for the first time in my life, calm, mm, looked very good. Stable, very sexy. Suddenly, right? But that wasn't my experience 3 years previously or 4 years previously. >> So, what So, the the being assertive about the things that you wanted, I mean, I I see a parallel with that and the conversation uh with the graduation, too.
(1:32:03) >> Yeah, very astute. >> Um and so what would have you said on a date 3 years prior than that? >> I would have made a joke. I would have been sarcastic. Oh, you want to know what I really want? How about a bent? Like I I would have said something funny. I would not have ever I mean, I told the truth truth of what I wanted.
(1:32:26) Like down to considering having a baby. Like those were really vulnerable things. But I was like, but I'm not ashamed of any of them. And it won't hurt me if he's not into it. He just won't be right for me. And that's okay. But if he's into it, then maybe he's super right for me and I guess we'll find out. But I was suddenly I had my own back finally.
(1:32:51) I was solid enough in myself and the life that I've built and in absolutely being so positive that I was never going to settle again in a relationship for being less than really seen. I wanted someone who could see me, who could teach me, who would be excited to be in the front row when it was my turn to shine.
(1:33:13) Yay, when it was My husband has I also wanted someone with a big career because I do and I was like, I want you to be passionate about what you're passionate about, which he is. So when it's his show and he's winning awards or doing his thing, I'm in the front row and super excited. But nobody Dick was never threatened by who I was.
(1:33:33) Keep in mind, he was 10 years older than me. He was widowed and divorced and lived in Elizabeth, New Jersey, had three acting out teenage sons. Like trust me when I say he's perfect for me. I'm not saying he's perfect. I'm saying he That situation was perfect for me. But I would not have found it or recognized him if I had not healed my father wound.
(1:33:51) >> Did you Would Would you have even known to write down those things? Like would have you known you wanted that? >> No. >> Cuz if you go back to the people we're talking about at the beginning, like being in touch with what they actually need or even want is sort of maybe distorted at some level. >> 100%.
(1:34:09) I would not have You were actually very insightful because I didn't know and I would not have known. It's through the work of being honest about what didn't work in my relationships, what wasn't working in my life, what was I missing? And trust me, it took time for me to allow cuz I was hyper-independent. >> Mhm. >> So it took time and Vic used to say, "Let me come scoop you up.
(1:34:30) " He would from He would want to drive into the city, pick me up on West 68th Street, and then turn around, go back in the Holland Tunnel so that I could get there quicker on the weekends. And I'd be like, "Let me just go to Penn. It's It'll take me 20 minutes." And my mother was the one who was like, "How about stop stopping this guy from doing nice things for you, Tara? He wants to scoop you up, let him.
(1:34:49) " He wants to make your life easier and I hit me. I was like, "Oh my god. This is what it's like to be partnered with someone who's thinking about me as much as I'm thinking about them or more." >> What's the difference between that and love bombing? >> He's still doing it 30 years later. It never changed. It never stopped.
(1:35:14) He To this day, almost 30 years, I wake up, look gross. He's like, "Oh my god, look at you. You're Like It doesn't matter what I look like." He's like, "You're amazing. You're gorgeous. You're doing great." Like just And we're best friends though and I think that this was another thing that I never thought was possible when I was father wounded actively.
(1:35:36) I never thought your partner could really be your friend. I've always been a girl's girl. I have the same friend since 1973, literally. Because women were trustworthy and men were not. So there was an allure here, but not a friendship. And then with a when I healed, I realized, "No, your person hopefully is really one of your closest friends, right? Maybe your best friend.
(1:36:03) " >> So, let's take someone who's had all these sort of realizations. >> Yeah. >> Uh they understand the follow through and they could see the relationship pattern. Intellectually, they know that chaos isn't chemistry and and inconsistency isn't love. >> Mhm. >> And so, why do you feel like choosing difficult choosing differently may still feel very difficult for them? >> Because it's unfamiliar.
(1:36:30) And because you're probably masterful at the other thing, right? You know how to do relationships the way you've been doing them. But being uncomfortable, one of the things that I talk about in the book quite a bit, and that what there's a requirement when you are going to transform what's not working in your life, that you must get comfortable being uncomfortable.
(1:36:52) Because you're going to have a space in between, and I call it the in between. Sometimes online you'll hear people talk about the messy middle of things, where you know too much to do the old things, those old ways of being don't really work because you're too awake to do them. You haven't mastered the new things, so you're sort of oh, flailing around of like, >> Yeah.
(1:37:15) >> Am I going to tell the truth about how I feel? Am I going to talk to this person about this? Am I You don't necessarily feel like you have the skills. This is part of the process. So, what I'm saying to someone who knows that, "Wow, this is really me. I see myself in these patterns." I'm going to invite you lovingly to let me lead you and do something different.
(1:37:40) You deserve to be seen, to be known, to be cherished, to be loved, to be in a relationship that's mutual, where you're not managing, where you're not manipulating, and where you're not being treated badly. You deserve to be seen, and you can create those conditions, as I did, by healing.
(1:38:03) And again, you guys, this is not a book about like calling in the one. It's a book where I'm teaching you that you are the one. You are the one. And when you get that you are the one, everything will change. When you take that gorgeous gauge of gaze of yours and turn it in, your life will change. Treat yourself like the beloved. Treat yourself like how you think, what you feel, what you want matters, and it needs to matter to you literally more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels. That is not selfish.
(1:38:39) That is being sovereign. That is being self-determined, which is what is on the other side of healing this wound, is your self-determination. You will do live a life that you want to live, that thrills and fulfills you, and you can do it. >> Now, you in the beginning, towards Vic, you didn't have the butterflies, but it did seem like when he appeared the second time, you did have a butterfly.
(1:39:04) So, I want to get clear on like what you're actually saying about what's on the other side of this, because are you are you saying that once you get healthy, you could feel butterflies towards another healthy person, or if you do the work and you're meeting people in this new process, and you're not still feeling the butterflies, that does you could still pursue it.
(1:39:29) And maybe maybe you will, uh maybe maybe you won't. Like, how how how are you working through that? Cuz I think a lot of people are like, "Well, still, I want to feel something. I want to feel like a butterfly or something." >> But here's the thing, it's not necessarily butterflies. What if it was certainty? What if it were feeling solid? What if it was that feeling that you're home? Finally.
(1:39:53) Which is different than butterflies. Right? I can't talk about Vic without crying. It's like you would think 30 years later, like why are you still crying? But there's something so powerful about being known. And that's what I want. So, I don't know that the butterfly thing I was definitely excited to be with him.
(1:40:19) I saw a future with him. I was not scared that he had kids. I was like, I I guess I'm skipping the terrible twos and we're going right into the terrifying teens and I'm I just loved him so much. I was like, you could have 40 teenagers. I literally don't care. Like, I think love will be enough. So, healthy love it it isn't that it's not compelling.
(1:40:41) It's just different than how I used to feel in the up and down of the erratic behavior love. It's not the same. I feel calm around Vic. I from the moment I saw him I was happy to see him, excited, fulfilled, all those things, but calm. You know why? Because he is emotionally trustworthy. Because he wasn't someone who was going to betray me.
(1:41:12) And it took a long time for me to believe that. And then once a year maybe we were in in it for a year, I was I finally believed maybe he wasn't going to betray me. I was talking about it in therapy like, this guy's too good to be true, something's going to happen. Then I became obsessed with the fact that he was going to die.
(1:41:28) I was like, he's definitely getting hit by a bus. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, I had all this this neurotic stuff coming out because it was so like, could this be? But the thing is it can. And it's not for someone else to bestow it upon you. It's you making these changes, healing these original injuries. You actually become the good and consistent parent, the self-considering, the self-compassionate parent that you didn't have.
(1:41:56) >> Mhm. >> We do that for ourselves and then it's like who you attract changes. Right? Because now I'm not acting out this unhealed wound in my relationships the way that I was. Now I'm present. Now I'm available for the hard work of being in a real relationship. >> Mhm. >> It's not all drama. It's not fighting.
(1:42:18) It's figuring out how you're paying the mortgage together. It's dealing with kids acting out and doing bad things. Like there's it's really I I think one important aspect is when it's less healthy healthy, there's a lot of feelings like you what about me and what about me and you don't understand me. When it's healthier, it's you and me against whatever this problem is.
(1:42:42) It's always you and me >> Yeah. >> against this. Right? Like we we are the the unit against the rest of the world and the kids and everyone. It's just always me and him, you know? >> That's beautiful. Well, as we finish I want to put all five clues back on the table that we talked about. You know, we started with healthy love can feel boring.
(1:43:04) Then we we looked at why it can be hard to leave someone who mistreats you. >> Mhm. >> How this pattern has begun in childhood. Um how to heal when maybe even your father doesn't acknowledge uh get the acknowledgement that you wanted. And then finally what it takes to choose and experience love differently.
(1:43:23) And so when you see that all together what do you think we've mistaken for love and what does real love actually look like? >> Well, I think comfortability or familiarity often is mistaken for love. Lust can also be mistaken for love, right? If you have a real passion, real passionate thing for that that person physically, but they may not know you and there's a lot of people that have that.
(1:43:54) Um but mostly in in reference to a father wound, it's it being familiar and confusing that with healthy chemistry cuz here's the thing, chemistry is a word that, you know, is confusing because here in in a trauma bond, oh, there's chemistry, right? That's there. You are activating each other endlessly.
(1:44:15) That can also be considered chemistry. So, again, I go back to being most interested in compatibility. But I think that we mistake comfort or what's familiar with love and healthy love, and it'll be different for everyone. Some people want something else, right? They're Not everyone wants what I want, right? Not everyone wants what you want.
(1:44:39) But healthy love means you're not walking on eggshells. >> Mhm. >> You're not afraid of your partner. And if you are afraid of your partner, according to Terry Cole, something is wrong. >> So, I mean, the last question would be what do you feel like it means to love someone without abandoning yourself in light of that? >> Having boundaries.
(1:45:04) Right? Knowing what your level of is integrity is. I mean, for me personally, it's not putting up with from literally anybody. But love, like having love within boundaries. People talk about unconditional love. No. I do not. Because healthy love is boundaried love. Meaning, there's an expectation. We won't say the meanest thing we could think up to each other.
(1:45:30) There's an expectation if you're in a monogamous relationship that you won't step out. Those are boundaries. That is conditional love. Not conditional like perform for me conditional or pay for my apartment conditional, not that. But I do believe that healthy love for sure is boundaried love that considers both people. You have to care about your person's activation stuff.
(1:45:53) I know about Vic's childhood, he knows about mine, we talk about these things. But it's important to be a little bit therapized cuz I find that a lot of times women who are plenty therapized end up with men who are not therapized at all. And then they're trying to do the work for two and that cannot it's hard.
(1:46:09) That doesn't work that great usually. >> Well, Terry, thank you >> [clears throat] >> for coming back to the podcast second time. Uh I think this is just fantastic. I mean, the blend of I mean, you've been doing this for 30 years and you've treated so many people, but then also hearing more behind the scenes of your personal story and the way you've worked through these things, I think gives it a whole new light and so yeah, I think this will be illuminating for people.
(1:46:34) >> Thank you so much for having me again. It was so nice. >> All right, you stayed with me all the way to the end. So, let me bring you backstage for a minute. I want to show you how we actually build these episodes. As you learned at Mighty Pursuit, we're mapping the human experience.
(1:46:50) But a map only helps if the guidance inside it can be trusted. That's why we make sense of life by bringing together four sources: science, spirituality, history, and lived experience. Science tells us what the evidence supports. Spirituality teaches us what life is for. History shows us what people have tried, and lived experience brings the final test.
(1:47:11) Does any of it actually hold up in your real life? Now, not every episode draws equally from all four. Today with Terry, we leaned heavily on science and lived experience. Psychology helping explain why unhealthy love can feel so compelling, and Terry's own story showing what it can take to finally choose differently.
(1:47:31) Ultimately, the goal is always to build the fullest, most trustworthy picture we can. So, if you want to keep building a clearer map for your own life, there are really two ways to stay connected with us each week. Every Tuesday, the podcast helps you make sense of one part of life. And every Thursday, our newsletter The Nine zooms back out across all major nine areas with insights and actions you can take every week.
(1:47:55) So, subscribe to the show, join The Nine at mightypursuit.com/thenine, and I'll see you next week.