Why Humans Turn Evil?Brain Science of Trauma & Psychopath Leaders|Dr. Virinchi Sharma|The HonestHour
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(00:00) Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, they want to go for their ego defense mechanism, they want to drive a country into war. Not just at a political level, not just at a country level, but even if you're looking at leaders, you always see that there are some psychological traits which are dominant in these people.
(00:18) >> In India we see like 24% of the child sexual [music] abusers are from the trusted person. There is only one slice of bread [music] to eat, should I be eating it or should I give it to the child? But when we are talking about these people, when that whole disturbance happens inside my brain, my brain switches into that impulsive mode.
(00:41) [music] Once I go into that impulsive mode, I realize that >> many of the corporate leaders or political leaders or people who are in prominent positions, they have the psychopathic [music] traits. Is there any psychological or psychiatric angle to this? A lot of researches talk about how in the general population it is 1% of people who have psychopathic traits.
(01:02) And when it comes to people like CEOs, Welcome to the Honest Hour, Dr. Virinchi Sharma ji. Thank you. Thank you so much for the invitation, Andy. It's a pleasure to have you on board. Thank you. Doctor, like recently in the news we are seeing lot of warlike situations like where Israel and United States of America attacked Iran.
(01:25) Then we've seen Ukraine and Russian crisis, the Syrian crisis and very recently the crisis or the warlike situation almost escalating into a warlike situation between India and Pakistan. Now, you know, people talk about strategy, political developments, etc. Let's put aside politics and religion. Now, when we talk about individual human beings in the situation of war, people are majority of the people are not participants of it.
(01:53) Right? So, what is this phenomena, psychological phenomena, where you must have not met those people, not seen them, but per se, in this situation you're expecting them to be attacked? >> I think the whole concept starts with the dehumanization that our brain already does about the other individuals. Now, when it comes to a particular country that our country is fighting with, I think we are already been fed about how brutal they have been, how inhuman their behaviors have been, which bring about a sense of enmity
(02:32) within us, and that enmity has already been probably hiding inside us, which is waiting for a time like this to come out. So, that's one thing that usually is a reason why, despite not knowing whom we are fighting, despite not knowing are they actually is everybody on the other side as bad as what we are thinking, we make that division in our head.
(02:59) And if you go back into the ancient times also, I think taking one side was important, dividing instead of being neutral, it was very important that you take one side because being in a group always gave you more security, you know, when you know, centuries back when livelihood was more living in the forest or in the jungles, you couldn't be an independent party saying that, "Okay, I don't see anything wrong here.
(03:29) I don't see anything wrong on both the sides." You can't say that, you need to be choosing one side. And even if you go back into the previous yugas, you know, where we talk about wars that have happened, people had to choose one side. Even if you take about the Kurukshetra war, people had to choose either if they wanted to be with the Pandavas or with the Kauravas.
(03:54) And now once a choice is made, there is this whole brain choosing one side and because it has chosen one side, it starts liking the aspects of that one side and automatically starts seeing the negatives of the other side. So, this has been something that has come for very long time. And at the same time, you also try to build a sense of love or you know, for your own country, for your own land because we believe that this is the place that we are born, this is the place that has been taking care of us.
(04:34) So, we need to be protecting this place. And right now when it comes to the you know, aspect of protection, we are not looking at if we are wrong or if we are right, but we also want to make sure that we protect it at any cost. So, now that kind of a phenomenon is also something that helps us go towards choosing one side.
(04:56) So, if you look into the psychology of war, undoubtedly, choosing a side has always been more protective. And at the same time, survival was better when you chose a side instead of staying alone. So, even if you're looking at a simple conversation between two people, if there is a discussion, a heated discussion or a debate, people get more importance when you choose a side.
(05:24) So, if I'm wanting to say something, I need to come to one side and say because at least I know that this side of the people are going to give me priority or going to accept what I say. So, that is something that has come over years and this is one phenomenon which helps us protect our own identity, helps us protect our own psychological safety and that is one reason why we tend to start looking at the negatives of the other person and start believing that what we are doing is actually right.
(06:00) >> But coming to this dilemma, during the Kurukshetra war, you know, Arjuna was constantly discussing or asking, seeking opinion from Lord Krishna. Like which what is the action that he needs to take? Right? Like choosing a side was highly difficult for him. Right? In that scenario, what is the way ahead? >> Well, if you look into the Kurukshetra war, if you look into the scenario that you're talking about, I think when we talk about the conversation happening between Lord Krishna and Arjuna, there you know, some of the shlokas clearly
(06:34) explain how Arjuna, being one of the greatest warriors, was still very panicky because very clearly the shlokas explain how his hands were trembling, you know, how he was sweating, how he was feeling a little dizzy, how his throat and the mouth were dried up, how he had his heart racing. So, these were all typical symptoms that Arjuna was facing through which today we look into when we look into our psychiatric textbooks, this qualifies for a typical anxiety disorder.
(07:07) Now, why did a great warrior like Arjuna have anxiety? It's not because he lacked some skill, but this was purely coming from an entity about, "What am I doing? I mean, is it the right thing that I'm doing? They are my brothers, too. If I'm going to kill them, that's going to be the end of their lineage, family lineage, you know, that generation, you know, is this is this right?" So, these were multiple questions that were coming into Arjuna's mind, which brought in this sense of anxiety.
(07:40) And if you look at you know, the conversation, what Lord Krishna told him which brought back the confidence in him to go forward, he did not say that they are bad people or he did not say that you need to be doing this. All he said was, "I want you to follow your dharma." So, now when we are talking about dharma, what is that you know, right thing that you're supposed to be doing here? You are a warrior, your a kingdom is at war and you are supposed to be protecting your kingdom at this point.
(08:15) And at the same time, I want you to look at the bigger picture. You are doing this not because you want to take revenge or not because you enjoy killing somebody, but you're doing it for a bigger good. So, now when we bringing this into our practical lives, when we have a core value of doing something, none of these thoughts or none of these emotions really disturb you.
(08:40) I always you know, try to give this example to my patients. If you are wanting to exercise, your core value should be I want to be healthy. Now, if my core value is not about health or about some little goal like losing weight or gaining weight. So, I start working out. Today I want to lose weight.
(09:02) Three weeks later, I suddenly check my weight and I've put on weight. Now, that's going to demoralize me. Instead, if my core value is something much bigger, which is health, this weight gain or weight loss is not really something that is going to impact me. So, that way Arjuna was asked not to look at what is the immediate gain, what is that that is going to make you happy in the immediate scenario, but try to look at the bigger picture here.
(09:31) You as a warrior, as a protector of your kingdom, need to step in right now because your kingdom is in problem and they could be anybody, they could be more powerful than you, they could be your own kith and kin, but at this point, you need to be only focusing on dharma. And that is what you know, brought back Arjuna into getting into the war and we all know what the result was.
(09:54) And another thing, sir, [clears throat] like when you talk about India and Pakistan partition, the 1947 partition was there was a lot of bloodbath, lot of situations where a lot of family suffered on both sides, right? Now, there could be people who have not practically lived at that point of time, today's generation.
(10:14) Now, the larger question is this intergenerational trauma. Though we have not experienced those situations, still those that impact of partition still exists. So, is this for real say the intergenerational trauma? Like let's say my great grandfather or you know somebody related to me has suffered, so I also carry the same hatred, same trauma until this date.
(10:37) Well, it is quite possible because now when there is a brain in the family that has suffered, that has been traumatized, but did not get a chance to heal. Right. Now, that brain could be uh carrying this trauma uh not just with themselves in their lifetime, but could also be uh bringing it into the next generation because uh it is very easy sometimes to talk about peace.
(11:06) It is very easy to sometimes talk about brotherly hood feelings, but fraternity, brotherly >> Absolutely, absolutely. Uh these these aspects are very nice to be uh you know uh you know brought in in a discussion uh probably like this. But now, when somebody has undergone a trauma and uh there was no justification for that trauma, you know, why did that person had to suffer? For no reason.
(11:35) He was innocent or she was innocent, but that person had to undergo all of this. And in such scenarios, the brain's threat system or the fear system activates. And [snorts] when there is [clears throat] an activation like this, this threat system is always going to carry fear in the kith and kin. I would be afraid about my friendships with my children.
(12:00) I would be afraid about the places that they want to travel. I would be afraid about uh the decisions that they make. So, this fear is something that is going to carry forward in generations and unless they actually sit with it, process it, make peace with it, you cannot expect it to suddenly disappear because today things are getting better.
(12:23) So, a lot of times when people talk about uh why not artists come from there? Right. You know, why not we go there and play a cricket match? I think this is where the whole uh I mean uh confusion comes from because today you want to make things right, but things in the past have not been finished yet. You know, they've not been uh processed yet in the right way.
(12:48) And without doing that, you cannot expect a brain to all of a sudden change because there are structural and chemical changes that happen inside the brain tissue, which brings about >> [clears throat] >> a bigger change in the way the individual sees situations, Okay. in the way that individual uh processes his emotions, in the way he thinks, in the way he behaves.
(13:14) So, uh there's a huge difference when you talk about a brain where a threat system has not been activated and the one that has been activated. So, now once the threat system is activated, that person cannot see a scenario just like how you and me are seeing. Mhm. So, uh let's imagine both of us are walking on the same road, but I have already had an experience of seeing a snake on that road.
(13:37) You could be very casual walking in that road, but you know, my brain is constantly telling me that there is threat. There is a phobia? Absolutely. So, there is that constant fear that my brain is walking in with and that fear is not going to let me take decisions as easy as what you are taking. So, it's a though it might not be a lived experience, intergenerational trauma has some scientific and clinical backing to it.
(14:03) >> Absolutely, absolutely. Recently, Psychology Today has published a report stating that leaders like Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, etc. You know, people who are usually aggressive and who want to go for a war. That's what they called as war mongering. So, they have stated that this is a kind of psychological trait where because they want to go for their ego defense mechanism, they want to drive a country into war.
(14:34) Is that true? Well, it is quite possible because now when you look at leaders, not just at a political level, not just at a country level, but even if you're looking at leaders uh at a work level, uh people running organizations, you always see that there are some uh psychological traits which are dominant in these people. And now these traits don't let the individual look at things at an empathetic level, but they are looking at it at a more superficial level where power, superiority uh play a more important role than emotions, uh positive emotions like uh uh you
(15:12) know, empathy, kindness. So, uh undoubtedly leaders have these kind of traits and when these kind of traits are dominant, you see them as more aggressive leaders. Uh I think for the longest time people wanted leaders like that, but now I think uh times are changing where you want someone who is protecting the country, not just taking the country to war.
(15:38) Now, if you look at the current scenario, uh you know, sometime back we were discussing, our leader of India right now is having the best ties with all these countries that you were talking about, but we are not yet into war. Yeah, Iran we have very good relations. United States of America, we have good relations. Israel, we have good relations.
(16:00) Even the UAE we always support the cause. Now, in this scenario, what should be done? Like uh yeah, please. So, I I I think I think uh the ability of pushing ourselves away from war for this long itself talks about some positive psychological traits that you know, our leader and the people who are with him because we all know that uh you know, a leader functions well when he has the best of the team members, you know, the bureaucrats or you know, uh the rest of the team members who are uh advising him. So, that advisory board
(16:37) should be able to think at a larger picture here. Currently, we have uh we are not under any threat. Uh nobody has uh you know, uh challenged us to a level where we need to really step forward. And even if you look into the last two, three decades, I think every time there was some scenario like this only when there was some harm done to our people.
(17:02) So, it was more of protecting our rights, but uh we've not aggressively stepped in because we all know the geopolitical concepts of why they want to take forward this war, about how, you know, winning this war is going to help them in many scenarios. But right now, I think all of us sitting in this country are actually feeling very safe because uh somebody sitting there is thinking in a more empathetic tone than a more aggressive tone.
(17:32) Is it something to deal with India's civilizational and cultural ethos? You know, the way of life that we have carried on through generations. >> Absolutely, undoubtedly because I think for the greatest time, we have believed in respecting others. It's not just respecting individuals, but respecting objects, respecting the elements of the nature.
(17:55) So, I think the way we all have been ingrained in our brains itself is where we are happy, satisfied, we know what has to be done. We are sitting in a comfortable chair right now. And I think that kind of a nature itself which is there in our ecosystem like you said, which has been ingrained in us coming through generations, does impact the way you think.
(18:20) And such brains are cognitively stronger and that is another reason why a lot of our population are you know, leading you know, many organizations all around the world. So, so when we talk about the brain, the emotions are more primitive you know, coming from more primitive areas of the brain like the limbic system, the amygdala.
(18:45) These are all primitive areas. So, what is a human brain? Human brain is superior to all the other living beings because it has one area which is more developed than any other brain, which is the prefrontal cortex. So, the front part of the brain is the prefrontal cortex. Now, when your prefrontal is stronger, you think, you're able to focus, you're able to be attentive, you use your memory well, your ability to solve problems is better, your ability to think analytically, rationally, use your intelligence, take the right call,
(19:21) judgments. So, all these abilities are you know, great human abilities, but unfortunately, most of us are not working on this cognitive we are working on this more emotional mode which is impulsive, aggressive, you know, uh getting some uh gratification. Yeah, that [clears throat] gratification in hurting others, in you know, showing more superiority on others.
(19:46) So, these kinds of things probably are lesser in civilizations which are uh you know working on humanity empathy and we are blessed to be one of those civilizations. As rightly said, you know like as you have quoted so it is also to deal with our strong India's strong cultural values. >> Absolutely.
(20:08) Yeah, the the idea of India per se Indianness per se or Bharat per se. True. But sir the other side of it is like when we talk about leaders like Trump and you know some aggressive leaders the journal also reported you know stating that this is these are some kind of narcissistic patterns. >> Correct. And people use military to as a defense mechanism for their distorted ego.
(20:33) So very true is because now when we are talking about narcissism we are talking about individuals where there is a lot of grandiosity in their thinking. They believe that they have the most advanced knowledge about things. They believe that they are very superior in their ability to deal with situations and at the same time in narcissists empathetic nature is much much low.
(20:59) Thinking about what the other person feels, thinking about how the other person reacts, thinking about am I doing any harm to the other person is very very little. So if you look at leadership roles sometimes these kind of traits are helpful. But somewhere when an individual does not know where the line is being drawn and the individual does not have a mental health professional guiding them about using the traits in the right way they gradually start exploding in a negative way because currently even the countries which are very
(21:39) developed and are currently involving in war it's not that you know people there are sitting safe. Yeah. So it is one person's thought process or one team's thought process which is putting millions and billions of people at risk. >> Yes, yes. So that surely >> risk also? People can't you know they're very apprehensive very pessimistic you know populace they're you know always under threat. True.
(22:07) Imagine the people in Israel for that matter in United States of America also they get like a very apprehensive if somebody just comes and knocks the door also. Correct. >> That's not the case in India per se. True, true. And you know constantly living in a fear again weakens the brain where your threat system is constantly active.
(22:30) Your other brain areas are not getting enough blood circulation. So all of them gradually start weakening the brain. They change the individual's personality and that way one narcissist leader family member can you know destroy a lot many people you know associated with them. Imagine a 21 year old soldier from Punjab. Mhm. You know he's joined the army recently and he's he's been posted in Siachen Glacier or LOC.
(22:58) Now he sees things that human mind earlier has never processed. >> Correct. Has never seen. >> [snorts] >> Now he comes back home. He's having sleepless nights. Now he's unable to socialize properly with the people. He hears sounds. Now nobody talks about this. You know usually this guy was like any other youngster.
(23:18) And he's been exposed to certain circumstances which are war-like circumstances or you know difficult circumstances. Now how do they process this? How does the human mind process this kind of turbulence? Well PTSD is one of the commonest psychological conditions that we >> PTSD? >> So PTSD is post-traumatic stress disorder. Okay.
(23:39) And this is one of the commonest conditions that we usually see in individuals who are working in the army, military or who have exposed themselves to war. Right. So it's not just in these people but even in correct. >> matter even doctors might also see this. >> Yes. So even common men when they have exposed themselves to extreme stressful situations like a car accident or you know witnessing a murder in front of them.
(24:07) So in such situations the changes that happen inside the brain are so severe that these episodes continue to haunt the brain even after many weeks or many months. Okay. So the commonest symptoms that we usually see in them is avoidance. So for example if somebody has witnessed a car accident there is extreme avoidance to even sitting in a car or even watching a car sometimes traveling on the road. Okay.
(24:33) So that kind of an impact is what a PTSD brain can be having. So they are constantly having images of whatever they have seen and this images can sometimes awaken them from the sleep. We call it as a startle reflex where they get up with a lot of fear all of a sudden in the middle of the night because the brain is constantly playing that image even during sleep. Mhm.
(24:59) And once they get up from the sleep we see them having terrible anxiety symptoms like extreme palpitations you know heart rate touching up to 150, 160, 170, shortness of breath and most of them feel that I could be having a cardiac arrest right now. Yes. So these kinds of avoidance and having repetitive images and thoughts about whatever they have seen is something that we commonly see in people who have been in the army and undoubtedly >> for years together.
(25:30) >> Oh yes if it is untreated it can go up to years and it gradually starts eating away that person's confidence, eating away that person's abilities also. So undoubtedly psychological help when someone has undergone a situation like this is something that is important and as early as possible is also something that we need to be working on because while the brain is under stress there is a lot of disruption happening to many neurons inside the brain.
(26:02) And this kind of a disruption sometimes can be an irreversible change also. So before things go to that extent if you are able to identify, start processing them, start helping the individual to come out of this through therapeutic techniques like cognitive behavioral therapy which have been very effective in helping individuals come out of such situations. Right, right.
(26:24) >> [laughter] >> Moving on doctor like recently Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei he's been you know attacked or killed by the US and Israel's forces right? Now the larger narrative which is built is about martyrdom. Right? Now he said that I'm ready to die for my country. Now putting that issue aside we see radicalization.
(26:52) Radicalization amongst especially youth whether it could be based on ideology, whether it could be based on religion or whether it could be based on any kind of identity. We've seen like in Indian context the radicalization based on religion amongst Muslims, amongst Hindus, amongst Sikhs per se the Khalistan movement or you know whatever. We still see that.
(27:10) Now in this radicalization what happens like people are believing that when we fight for our ideology for that matter even terrorist per se. When we fight for a particular cause and we give our own life as a martyr. Right? For the cause. So what is this mindset that is driving these people to take such extreme step? I think one thing that we usually see in most of these uh groups or individuals is the brainwashing starts at a very young age.
(27:41) Now why is that an important entity in this is because at a younger age when the person has just hit his adolescence there is more emotions and hormonal influence than your prefrontal cortex putting up logic and you know rational thinking. So your prefrontal is developing till 22 and by the time the prefrontal is developed this brain has been so well trained about these belief systems. Right.
(28:14) So after a while of practicing something the brain switches into an automatic thought or an automatic behavior. Mhm. So let's take a simple example. If I'm asked to demonstrate to some young kids Mhm. kids of age 4 years and 5 years about healthy brushing habits. Right. If I'm asked to demonstrate that the first thing I would be doing is take a toothbrush, put a toothpaste and start demonstrating how I brush. Yes.
(28:47) Now these are kids who don't know what brushing is. Mhm. Why am I only teaching them right hand? Mhm. I could have also taught them left hand but this is something automatically my brain does. Mhm. So there is no thinking here. I do it. It's more like conditioning? Absolutely. Right. So now when these brains are conditioned about some aspects about ideology or religion or [clears throat] you know God Mhm.
(29:13) by the time they come to an age where thinking is possible the brain still does not choose thinking. Okay. So that's why a lot of brainwashing starts at a very young age. >> Mhm. And these people by the time they you know reach their early 20s are well prepared with that whole ideology and uh probably talking logic to them does not make sense because They're completely indoctrinated. Yes, yes.
(29:43) So they're well you know they're well versed with knowledge but the acceptance of that for their brain is something that is very difficult. And that leads into, you know, larger destruction. You know, so usually people say it is only the people who are illiterate, people who are downtrodden, people who are vulnerable or of poverty they get into this.
(30:06) But we see practically or according to the media reports also, you know, people who are scientists, people who are doctors, people who are very well-educated, they also get into this. Absolutely. Now, so like as you said, it is a conditioning, number one. And some people might get into it because of psychological pain that they want some identity or some meaning to life.
(30:29) Is that also the case in this country? >> Absolutely possible. So what we usually see is most of the times when we meet individuals with such mindsets, Right. we see that their childhood has impacted their brain a lot. Mhm. So growing up in situations where they've seen difficulties, it can be parental conflicts, interpersonal relationship issues between family members, alcoholic parent, or when they've seen unfortunate situations in the families also where the father beats the mother or, you know, the mother has some extramarital affair. When they witnessed
(31:08) all of this, their brain sensitizes pain. Okay. So for them, beating somebody is not very harsh. Mhm. Or for them, abusing somebody or harming somebody for proving something is not very harsh. >> Mhm. A lot of times these individuals are also lonely from within because they've not got the right kind of love from their family members.
(31:35) So now they start looking for this from the external. And when some leader of these radical groups gives them even, you know, some hope, you know, they start immediately idealizing that person. Okay. And at the same time, we also >> like a venting mechanism? >> Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Because they they have a lot of insecurities inside.
(31:57) Deep insecurities. Oh, yes. And these insecurities are usually fulfilled by these groups where people start appreciating them for those little little efforts that they put. They give them some titles. And, you know, all of them builds that sense of security inside them. Right. Suddenly, the whole ideology that they're working for becomes the purpose of their life.
(32:22) Mhm. Because they've never had anything else that they've seen it in that entity. Now this becomes the whole purpose and that is where people at a later age, even when the family gets to know, try to bring them back, we see that, you know, these people are so well attached to their new leader and their new ideology right now.
(32:43) Mhm. So it is something much deeper than this what is visible. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. There's deeper trauma and deeper conditioning and deeper patterns that have developed over a period of time that is being manifested into this. Absolutely. Another significant phenomena that we see him, many of times even my friends and relatives when we discuss, there's this one dimension where ordinary citizens who are pretty peaceful in normal circumstances, but when they see a warlike situation, let's say in Indian context only, let us
(33:15) say about Operation Sindhu or Balakot strikes or Kargil war, etc. Now these people suddenly become bloodthirsty. Some people become suddenly hyper, you know, hyperactive or hyper-aggressive. Until then they're people who never, you know, even if they get into little quarrels, they always go for, you know, avoidance or, you know, the peaceful kind of mindset.
(33:39) Now what happens in this situations that, you know, person suddenly transforms into this kind of bloodthirsty or warmongering personality? It is undoubtedly that their sense of security inside their brain gets disturbed when they hear about a scenario like this. Because when I hear about a warlike situation, undoubtedly, it is true that I am worrying about my life first before I'm actually thinking about the jawans who are fighting for us or before I think about the country. Right.
(34:15) That's a human tendency. So when that whole disturbance happens inside my brain, my brain switches into that impulsive mode. So once I go into that impulsive mode, I realize that currently my security can come back only when there is an end to this. And my brain at that point does not think about peace as an end because peace takes a longer time.
(34:43) But firing at someone, you know, beating somebody is, you know, more quicker. So it is here the impulsive nature of the brain which is working faster because of the whole uncertainty which is triggering the primitive brain areas to again get activated. Makes sense. And the whole process of thinking logically about why not we look at any other way of dealing this goes and takes the backseat.
(35:15) And it On the other hand, the whole hatred that we've been told or that we've been fed into our brains about the other person, Right. which for many years we've been probably inside our head trying to logically fight with and say, "Okay, maybe they are also good people. You know, they could also be having some good qualities.
(35:44) " Now all of that goes to one corner and the whole hatred comes forward that these people are bad people. Mhm. So once that labeling happens, you know, we believe that bad has to end. There has to be an end to these negative mindsets. So that is where we want, you know, the war to finish in a way where, you know, we are victorious and we want the destruction of the other side.
(36:10) Quite interesting doc. And you know, another phenomena over here is like these days we are living in very difficult circumstances, right? We see a lot of unrest, civil strife and also in the global context we see a lot of warlike situations, situations where countries are fighting with each other, situations where there's a lot of political as well as economic uncertainties.
(36:34) It's not just political, it calls it is also military and economic uncertainty that we see. Now there are these youngsters, right? Or young chaps who are exposed to these on YouTube videos, on television channels where they see people being attacked, people people being killed and somebody justifying the killings. And also young children being killed, you know, buildings in rubbers, right? Drones attacking, missiles flowing from two sides.
(37:00) Now when a young mind which is impressionable watches this violence which they have never been exposed to, what how does it condition it? It's unfortunate that, you know, a lot of young brains are exposed to such kind of a content because Mhm. Undoubtedly, it shatters the whole confidence that that brain has been building. Because the confidence comes from the environment, confidence comes from people, not just from the self.
(37:29) But now once all of them start shattering, the brain goes into a state of confusion, fear, and what usually happens in uncertainty is your brain starts creating some narrations. So now there is a scenario, there is a warlike scenario. There is an emotion, that is I'm afraid. But between both of them, there is a whole narration that your brain starts creating.
(37:56) The brain starts creating narrations like today could be your last day. What if the missile falls on your house? You know, what if your loved ones are killed in this? What if you are killed and, you know, there is nobody to take care of your wife and your children? And this kind of a narration that the brain starts producing is the one that starts destroying or damaging the brain.
(38:17) So gradually this kind of a thought process starts causing a lot of dysfunction in the neuronal circuits that are formed and there is a greater chance of these people developing conditions like depressions, anxieties, insomnias, and like we were talking about PTSD, like, you know, getting exposed to some trauma and not being able to come out of that.
(38:43) And this is what we usually see in such scenarios. So undoubtedly psychological help is something that people should be accessing during such difficult times because the brain is not in our control. The thoughts are not in our control and the thoughts can vary from slightest you know, disruption to a large level of negative thoughts.
(39:11) So to stop something like this, one psychological help and practices, practices like meditation, mindfulness which helps us be in the present, not go into the past, not go into the future, but stay in the present is something that can help. Mhm. That certainly gives some awareness to a lot of parents and young chaps around. Like doctor, another important aspect in all this that we have discussed until now is this idea called revenge.
(39:39) Right? Now recently a research from Oxford University, they've stated that revenge is one of the best addictions. It gives that stimulation to the mind like, you know, they have drawn an analogy with heroin. You know, that kind of nervous stimulation is given. Now, what is this phenomenon of revenge? How does the mind process it? And in this whole scenario of revenge, before the person is actually affected, what why does uh the mind feel gratified? With only the idea that with my action they might get affected, they might get
(40:19) harmed. In this scenario only people live years together. So, it's very true that the aspect [clears throat] of revenge can be compared to an addiction. Now, let's try to take an example of gambling. Gambling is an addictive behavior. Every time I gamble, my brain believes that there is a possibility that I might win.
(40:47) And that little possibility gives me so much of dopamine and gives me so much of encouragement that I continue doing it even after failing 10 or 100 times. So, that's very similar to what a revenge revengeful thought does to the brain. So, the whole idea about taking revenge itself gives me a dopamine because uh for the brain, doing something and almost doing something gives the same dopaminergic rush.
(41:19) So, winning or almost winning gives the same dopaminergic rush. That's the reason when I compare it with gambling, if I just miss something, my brain does not see it as a failure but sees it as something very close to winning. So, it generates more hope. >> Yes, and that hope is something that, you know, people continue living with with this revengeful ideas.
(41:43) So, undoubtedly, when it comes to the concept of revenge, why the brain enjoys that is the brain continues to live in a thought process that uh I have been cheated, I have been betrayed, and I will be peaceful only when the same thing happens to the other person. So, I will be happier only when I see the other person suffering.
(42:09) So, this is where the whole thought process starts from that now my happiness is not in my hands but it is in the hands of, [laughter] you know, or it is in the situation where others are in distress. So, when that whole switch happen happens, that is when, you know, we start believing in revenge is the only way and we start thinking that unless I take revenge I will not be happy.
(42:37) And unfortunately, a lot of these brains continue staying in that distress uh despite having many opportunities to enjoy the current life. So, the fact is happiness is something that comes from within and it cannot come from anything outside. That's the reason a lot of times we see that after taking the revenge, the individual many a times is not happy.
(43:03) Yeah, I was just coming to it. Why does this happen? If it produces neurological reward, many a times after the revenge, they're not satiated. Correct. They feel even more restless after that. Why does this happen? >> So, the fact is that when there is >> This was the moment that they were vying for, you know, trying to enjoy this moment but that doesn't happen.
(43:24) So, while there is an expectation, uh you know, when your brain is anticipating something, there is a constant dopamine that is being released. But once the act is done, the brain is not producing the dopamine anymore because you already achieved it. And that is where the whole feeling of emptiness comes into the brain.
(43:46) Now, once you are once you have taken the revenge, your brain now switches gradually from the impulsive mode into the more cognitive mode. And this is where your brain starts thinking about what did I even do? And this is exactly what we also see in the Kurukshetra war. You know, where after the war, you know, there is that sudden silence in all the Pandavas because they realize that, you know, everything on the other side has been destroyed now.
(44:18) Even the most aggressive of the Pandavas felt the same situation. >> Correct. So, somewhere that whole emptiness that sets in, the whole thinking that sets in, or thinking that now begins is something that causes a lot of these negative emotions at that point. So, this is something that we also see in other you know, real life scenarios also.
(44:44) We see this, you know, in alcoholics, you know, who anticipate drinking, who are very excited but when they are drinking they're not very happy. So, that anticipation gives them a lot of excitement but once they go to that place, once they're sitting with friends, they're not really enjoying with that drinks.
(45:03) We also see it in students where, you know, while they are preparing, while they are anticipating the results, there's a lot of excitement but once the results are out, there is a sudden silence. So, Yeah, recently also a doctor like IIT-JEE results were announced. The parents around them they're hyper excited, you know, the relatives were excited but this video went viral where the kids who actually cracked the examination, who put so much of effort to clear it, they were behaving in a very socially anxious manner or socially uncomfortable
(45:37) manner. So, I think what you mentioned just now has a correlation to that. >> It's something very similar. See, when we talk about current competitive examinations and the kind of uh push that, you know, students are given into, you know, preparing for these examinations, these students are like those horses that are running a race, which are blinded, which don't know why they are running, which don't know who don't know where we are heading towards.
(46:10) They only know that we are supposed to run. And now, once your result is out, you don't need to run anymore and now you don't know where we are heading towards. Unfortunately, not having your other brain areas equally activated other than your you know, exam related areas, is one important reason for a phenomenon like this because uh there's only one thing that you've been looking forward for and once you achieve it, you don't know what next.
(46:42) So, that is the unfortunate scenario that our students today are in. That is one reason why also having parallel activations of the brain area with uh other goals or you know, other dimensions of health like fitness, you know, psychological health, social health, these are going to help us deal with such scenarios. Otherwise, there is a sudden crisis like a situation in the brain about what am I going to do now? I was supposed to be doing this, I'm done and now I don't know what next.
(47:16) That makes me remind of another instance of Virat Kohli, the cricketer. Now, [snorts] he documented the instances of disrespect that he faced. And then he says that he used them as a performance fuel. In our institute also, AKS IAS Academy, there's several students. Now, when I ask them what is the reason for you to choose civil services, there's some peculiar reasons also like somebody has been ragged in in their college, right? Now, they feel that if I get become an IPS officer, then I can take revenge on my senior. Or you know, there could be
(47:52) some long-term trauma they have experienced with a particular person. Or even in their family for that matter, there could be some traumatic situations. What they feel is once they get into the public service, they can use this as a mechanism or a process to get their revenge sorted. Now, is this fuel of revenge? It is it is sometime positive like in the case of Virat Kohli.
(48:18) It can also be sometimes negative. So, till what extent is this justified? So, now when there is a stressful situation in somebody's life, it undoubtedly helps some people to grow from there. Now, while we are growing from it because now all the scenarios that we are talking about are people who did not shatter but took a step forward to work towards some positivity.
(48:45) Now, when we are working towards positivity, if your goal is a bigger goal, uh if it has more value to it, then the happiness of doing it is sustained. So, suppose if I have been bullied in my childhood and I want to grow up, become an IPS officer to punish only these people, I could work very hard, I could become an IPS officer, I could punish these people but after that, there is a whole lot of emptiness that my brain is going to go into.
(49:24) Instead, if my ideology is to work towards many such scenarios that happen, it could be fighting for ragging on all the institutes that are in my control. Mhm. That's a bigger goal. Right. >> And that has more purpose in it. And when there is more purpose in it, the motivation to do something every single day is going to be bigger and better.
(49:51) Because a lot of times after achievement, we do not really need the same kind of a routine that we are having. >> Mhm. So, a lot of people could get laid back there. Right. So, probably when I was working uh in a government institute uh as a compulsory part of my residency, I had a routine.
(50:15) I needed to report at one particular time. I needed to come out at one particular time. But now, when I have my own practice, I have a choice about when I want to wake up and when I want to work. Mhm. So, when there is a bigger purpose, that discipline that I learned can continue. But if that purpose is lost and if it is a very small uh goal that I had kept, uh things will not continue the same way.
(50:45) So, undoubtedly changing this kind of a mindset uh is going to help us uh rather than, you know, the people whom we want to seek revenge on. That's quite interesting, doctor. So, you mean that like you know, the revenge, the purpose of motivation. Sometimes there's a a term called positive revenge motivation. Right.
(51:04) For positive revenge motivation, when you have a larger goal, larger purpose, the fuel will sustain. Yes. But if it is for a short-term or a parochial goal or a very minimalistic goal or, you know, very uh you know, pessimistic kind of goal, that fuel that is only very short-lived. Absolutely right. That's quite some uh interesting uh you know, information that we got from you.
(51:26) And uh when we talk about uh revenge, uh we see something called intimate relationship revenge. Recently, this one case that shook the conscience of the whole nation is the Atul Subhash case. Right? It was a matrimonial dispute where these two individuals were together, they shared a bond, and later, it manifested into a revenge.
(51:50) So, why does this happen? Like in lot of divorce cases also we see, and lot of personal relations also, not only divorce, between siblings, between kith and kin we see. Now, these people were together, sometimes they also grew up together. Now, when you talk about marriages, they share a bond, they share a relationship both emotional and physical.
(52:09) Why does this revenge mechanism drop in? Where the same person whom you, you know, had a good affinity till, you know, a few days back, a few months back, now you want to harm them? So, the fact is uh a lot of times, these elements in an individual were always present. But unfortunately, in the initial times of the relationship uh during the love, uh there is, you know, a sense of uh feeling that everything that the other person is showing is to towards me is love. Mhm.
(52:47) So, for example, this person who behaves this way in the relationship could have always been possessive. Mhm. >> But we have been taking it as love. Could have always had jealousy. Right. >> But could have been taken as love. So, somewhere these entities of possessiveness, jealousy are traits that are present in individuals.
(53:10) Sometimes uh they could be masked by the whole uh you know, concept of love which is there in the initial terms. Mhm. But at the same time, uh you know, over years in the relationship, there have been times where individuals or partners start believing in this whole entitlement where they believe that I have this right. Mhm.
(53:36) I can behave this way. Yes. So, we see disturbances happening at a very early age, but sometimes because of cultural aspects, sometimes because of uh scenarios like where, you know, let's take a love marriage. Right. They've come out of the marriage. They've come out of their houses to get married. And they can't go back to their homes.
(53:59) So, they start living in uh you know, with these uh unhealthy patterns in their partner. Right. And every time there is an unhealthy pattern from the partner, and the other partner accepts it, you are fueling this behavior. Okay. You are giving a lot more encouragement for the brain to behave like this again.
(54:20) Because this brain learns that my this behavior has helped me conquer something in this relationship. So, gradually this keeps building up, building up, and at one point when it turns into that absolute violence, that is when things come out in the form of uh these news articles. Mhm. But personalities, personality traits, Okay.
(54:43) >> and uh you know, feelings of entitlement are aspects which have always been there. And uh it is our duty to actually uh be able to identify them in our partners before things go out of, you know, our hands. So, this is something to deal with the conditioning and their pattern of thinking.
(55:05) It's a behavioral pattern which they didn't express it all this while. Because there were a lot of you know, circumstantial factors that were preventing it. Now that they get a circumstance, they react. And they want to avenge it. So, absolutely because uh I remember once meeting a child who had come to me with some trauma that she has faced. Mhm.
(55:27) And while talking about her trauma, she spoke about her childhood where her mother was brutally murdered by her father Mhm. because he saw her intimate with another man. Undoubtedly, what he saw triggered his emotion, and he behaved in that particular way. Mhm. But if you go a little more back into the history, she did tell me that before this incident coming from her father, she has constantly seen the father physically abusing the mother Mhm. every time she was wrong.
(56:07) And when I say wrong, I'm talking about probably adding a little more salt into the food or, you know, not uh making sure that his clothes were clothes were ironed or pressed Mhm. or uh you know, not helping him by giving him a towel when he went for a shower. Mhm. So, these were smaller things that were gradually building up.
(56:28) Right. Where every time the person felt uh that he was not prioritized, Mhm. >> start behaving aggressive with his wife. And this aggression grew up to a level in his brain gradually. Every time he started being aggressive, and the wife started accepting it, his brain started feeling that yes, she is my wife, and I have a right to beat her every time she is wrong. Mhm.
(56:57) And when this sudden scenario happened where she was caught intimate with another man, that person couldn't control his anger, Mhm. and he within, within minutes, you know, took something that is sharp and chopped her. And uh this was something very terrible that this girl child had to undergo, which, you know, later led into she developing many personality changes.
(57:20) Like what kind of personality changes were on this girl? So, unfortunately, what happened with this girl was after this particular incident, Mhm. her dad married another woman. Okay. And now, her stepmom was again aggressive with this girl. So, there was a a double trauma to her. One, she grew up seeing the father beating the mother.
(57:49) Two, she also saw the mother being uh you know, intimate with other men. Three, when the father got to know about this intimacy, he killed her in front of her. And then the father brought another uh you know, wife into home that she is your stepmom, and that stepmom continued uh you know, physically abusing this girl you know, till the age of 18 and 20.
(58:17) And she had multiple personality traits. She had traits of dependency. She had traits of borderline personality where regulating her emotions were so difficult. Every time there was a stressful situation, her brain would push her into harming herself. So, there was deliberate self-harm in her. And all of this gradually pushed her into a severe depressive episode with suicidal thoughts which was, you know, the major reason why she had approached us. Mhm.
(58:44) Now, talking about revenge, there's a you know, opposite side of it is about forgiveness. Right. Right? Indian cultural values or the kind of conditioning that we had is about forgiveness. People say forgiveness is a virtue. Right. Now, how do we look at this thing? Now, when a person forgives an evil doer or according to them, they have harmed them.
(59:07) Right? Does it cycle break? Once you forgive, or you still carry that trauma? It's not always easy to uh immediately end it. Mhm. It it can be something verbal that you say that I forgive you. Mhm. But your brain has already developed some patterns inside in regards to the other person. Right. The good part about the human brain is uh you can rewire it uh as many number of times that you want. Mhm.
(59:35) But now that rewiring should happen, uh, over time with continuous positive behaviors coming from the other side. So, unless that happens, uh, the whole aspect of one individual telling the other that I forgive you, uh, okay, I will try and forget everything is only going to remain as words because the impressions that it has made inside the brain are strong enough and these impressions can continue to impact us even after many, many, many, many years if not processed in the right way and if not given the right opportunity to heal from it or
(1:00:15) rewire it in the best possible way. >> Mhm. So, forgiveness should be complemented with reconciling. Absolutely. Internally. And only that it can actually have a long-lasting impact. >> Yes. >> Otherwise, you still are in that loop. Oh, yes. Doctor, I was just going through a report, okay, which is saying that like usually many of the people in positions of power or many of the corporate leaders or political leaders or people who are in prominent positions, they have some kind of passive aggression.
(1:00:45) And they are also, you know, sometimes more harmful than a serial killer. They have the psychopathic traits. Is there any psychological or psychiatric angle to this? Well, it's actually true because if you ask me, uh, if you look at people at organizational levels like CEOs, COOs, Right.
(1:01:06) a lot of researches talk about how in the general population it is 1% of people who have psychopathic traits. And when it comes to people like CEOs, the population, the percentage goes from 4 to even 12%. >> Oh. Now, is that a bad thing? Not really because if you ask me about having psychopathic traits, I'm talking about traits where an individual can take decisions without being emotional.
(1:01:33) Right. And at the same time, I'm talking about traits where somebody can think about something new where there can be, like we say, you know, thinking novelty, you know, without being afraid about will it be accepted by the society or no. So, that creative aspects that come. And at the same time, when I'm talking about these CEO level people, I'm also talking about that strategic manipulation that you can do.
(1:02:02) So, without being emotional, able to take decisions that can take the organization forward are some positive traits that we talk about when it comes to people at the leadership qualities, which are very, very important. >> Right. But sometimes when this kind of a trait gradually starts turning into a disorder or starting starts turning into more harm to the others, that is when, you know, we need to be a little worried about because this non-empathetic approach that we are talking about could cause harm to the
(1:02:40) people in the organization. So, undoubtedly, yes, having these psychopathic traits can make you a greater individual, but for a long-term sustainment of the organization, you need to be a more empathetic leader than, you know, having these traits. Right. Doctor, like talking about this, recently there was a, you know, controversial release of Epstein files, right? Almost more than more than 3 million pages of report, right? Over here, we see world leaders like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and several prominent leaders' names popping
(1:03:20) up. Now, another major concern over there is pedophilia. Right. Right. Now, is this, you know, pedophilia as a psychological pattern or a process, it's a temporary addiction or is it something that is deep-rooted? So, now when we talk about the psychiatric aspect of the pedophilic behavior, we are talking about repetitive sexual attraction or cravings to indulge in sexual behaviors with uh, younger people.
(1:03:55) Younger people and, you know, pre-puberty age group. So, it is less than, you know, 12, 13 age group. So, that's exactly what the psychiatric definition is all about. >> Okay. Psychiatry defines it as like before 12 years or pre-puberty level. >> Pre-puberty level. So, somewhere undoubtedly this, uh, is a major concern because, uh, having an attraction like this not just talks about your, uh, sexual, uh, preferences, but also talks about the whole power game that your brain is seeking for because someone at a younger age is weaker, they do not know what is exactly happening.
(1:04:36) So, wanting to dominate them, push them, uh, and at the same time force them into something like this is, uh, something that we talk as, uh, an abnormality of the brain. And, uh, most individuals who enjoy behaviors like this have had their own childhood traumas and, uh, a lot of times these traumas can be sexual traumas which they have undergone.
(1:05:04) Uh, it could be, you know, their own family members, relatives, or strangers sexually assaulting them, uh, at a younger age. And, uh, gradually through repetitive such acts that they have gone through, one, their sensitivity changes. Two, that empathetic aspect in them changes into, uh, a more, uh, crude, impulsive thought process where they believe that giving pain is only going to give me happiness.
(1:05:35) So, at such points, undoubtedly, uh, questioning, uh, the health of the brain is something that we should be looking at. And there are treatments which can help change these patterns of the brain. Well, first of all, in this scenario, people don't want to identify that it's a problem, right? Now, here the question is is it a mental disorder or is it a choice or is it a blend of both? Well, uh, undoubtedly, as long as any sexual act is with consent Mhm.
(1:06:13) and you know that there is no harm, uh, to either of the individuals, it can be, uh, you know, looked as a choice. But once there is, uh, you know, lack of consent, once you know that, you know, the other person is not mentally able enough to understand what the act is. Both mentally and physically. >> Physically also.
(1:06:37) And at the same time, when there is harm, you know, that could be indirectly or directly happening to the other person, this has to be treated as a psychological or a psychiatric condition. And, uh, our textbooks like, uh, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Psychiatry or, uh, the ICD International Classification of Diseases does talk about pedophilic behaviors as a disorder. Mhm.
(1:07:05) Now, over here, like, uh, when we talk about pedophilia, you just mentioned that, uh, they might have undergone a similar sexual abuse in their childhood. Now, why does this person who himself or herself has undergone such kind of situation, that same person is indulging in this kind of sexual abuse or child sexual abuse? Now, this is not just about child sexual abuse, but in general, a human being, the same trauma, the same kind of, uh, you know, problems that have been inflicted on them, they want to do the same kind of act
(1:07:43) which they suffered on others. What is the psychology behind this? This is a very interesting question and I think this, uh, also talks about the complexity of how the brain functions. Mhm. Because, uh, when we talk about a healthy brain, we are talking about the brain's ability to indulge, uh, in, uh, you know, a few behaviors, you know, think in a particular way, uh, you know, express emotions in a particular way.
(1:08:13) And all of this develops when that brain gets an opportunity to grow in a safe environment. >> Mhm. And now when that safety net is removed, that brain does not, uh, grow like any other healthy brain. So, now when I say any other healthy brain, I'm talking about aspects of, uh, thinking about the others, having that empathy towards others, or understanding, you know, what others could be feeling if I say something or if I behave in a particular way. Mhm.
(1:08:42) And the other aspect that we were talking about is, uh, somewhere their brain getting accustomed or, you know, feeling comfortable with pain, pain to others. So, this kind of a change that happens in this young brain Is it just about customization or they also find pleasure in the pain that they see in others? >> No, it could be both.
(1:09:09) Not always that somebody is finding pleasure, but there are aspects and scenarios, like you mentioned, where their brain gets that dopaminergic hit only when they see the other person suffering. Okay. So, in such scenarios, it is surely the neural wiring of the brain that has changed. It is their personalities that have changed, and gradually this change is what they is is the only thing that gives them the dopamine, and now that hunt for dopamine pushes them into behaving in such particular patterns despite knowing that this is
(1:09:47) criminal, it can be illegal, it is bad morally. Despite knowing all of that, that brain's craving continues to dominate everything else. Okay. Okay. Now, that's why like in India we see like 24% of the child sexual abusers are from the trusted person. You know, somebody within the family as you rightly said.
(1:10:09) Now, this Epstein files has got widespread media attention and also social media attention. But in India there like lakhs of cases which are reported according to NCRB data, and some are not reported also. >> Right. Now, why does this pattern I think while we were discussing earlier earlier also you have mentioned that usually people from the same family or the relatives, why do they predate upon, you know, the young chaps within the family? Now, they definitely have some emotional bonding with them.
(1:10:42) Now, what is the psychology behind this where you want to, you know, sexually satiate yourself through your people who are amongst your known circle or people who are related to you. Sometimes the relationship is, you know, the kind of activities that they engage, it's a taboo kind of relationship.
(1:11:01) There also you fantasize sexually. Why does this happen? Well, undoubtedly this again explains how these brains, despite having the ability to create emotions, also do not have the ability to make deeper emotions. So, these emotions that they carry are more superficial. So, when I say more superficial, these emotions cannot be the same when their brain is unrest.
(1:11:29) When their their brain is unhappy. So, it can be as simple as there is only, you know, one slice of bread to eat, and should I be eating it or should I give it to the child? So, this is a very common scenario that comes where we see mentally stable people, emotionally stable people choosing it to give to the child.
(1:11:55) But when we are talking about these people who are not that deeply emotionally connected, they cannot make this simple choice, too. So, their brains function in a way where it is only they who needs to be prioritized, and unless they are prioritized, they cannot, you know, look at doing anything for others. And now when it comes to their sexual needs, when they are sexually deprived, they look at this as the greatest opportunity because one, nobody is going to question them.
(1:12:30) Two, when it is a child, the resistance from the child unfortunately physically cannot be to a level where, you know, they won't get what they are what their brain is craving for. So, somewhere having a brain which only thinks about yourself, which does not empathize for others, which believes that I have a right because I'm also taking care of the child.
(1:12:56) We've seen this happening a lot of times where nannies, where, you know, family members who are asked to take care of the child believe that, you know, they have a right over the child because they are contributing a little in their child's a sense of entitlement. Yes. So, somewhere these mindsets are again clearly being developed at a younger age.
(1:13:19) So, not having the right kind of parenting, getting exposed to content like this, and if you look into most of these crimes, they happen during the influence of a substance because when you are under the influence of a substance, your brain's brake system is not functioning. So, there is an ability of your brain to control its impulses.
(1:13:49) So, for example, you know, you forget your wallet here, and uh sometime later I just check, you know, whose wallet is this, and I realize that it is yours, but I also see some money in that. My brain could immediately tell me that, "Virinchi, you wanted money, right? Why don't you just take this money and put it in your pocket, and Mr.
(1:14:10) Shashank is not not going to, you know, probably, you know, notice it or he's not going to, you know, question you about this." But despite me having a thought like this, there is some part of my brain which also tells me that this is wrong, I should not be doing this. If I believe in karma, I'm going to say that, you know, this might happen to me later, or, you know, I start thinking about how this money could be very important for you, and why I should not be doing that.
(1:14:39) So, all of this, despite having a bad thought, is my brain's ability to stop me from doing something wrong. So, this is one beautiful entity that the human brain's prefrontal cortex does. But unfortunately, this brake system of mine is shut down when the human brain is under the influence of substances. That's the reason. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
(1:15:04) That's the reason if you see if you look at any table where there are a group of people sitting and drinking alcohol, after an hour, you will realize that the tone that all of them were talking suddenly raises. Everyone's shouting. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's because that brake system which was telling you that you're in a social gathering, you can't talk loud, is shut down.
(1:15:28) This one person who never danced in his life suddenly gets up and starts dancing. That's because his brake system is not functioning. Somebody who never sang stands on the table and starts singing very loud to his girlfriend. These are harmless situations. But now the same person who always drives his bike at a speed of 50 km/h starts driving at 100 and 150 because the brake is not working.
(1:15:56) The same person after coming home, if he's having a little quarrel with his wife, a little argument with his wife, suddenly becomes aggressive and beats her. You know, so all of this is happening because your impulse control area is shut down, and a lot of these sexual abuses also happen when the brain's impulse control is shut down under the influence of substances.
(1:16:20) But that's quite understandable, doctor, what you have said. Now, my question over here is like, is it just a momentary thing that is aggravated with the under substance abuse, or they have been manifesting it within their brains since a long point of time, and this was a trigger that they indulge in such kind of activity? So, the thought for the first time could have come many months back or many years back in that brain.
(1:16:48) >> It's not instantaneous. >> It's not instantaneously. The thought could be there, but there is a system inside your brain which is not letting this thought dominate, which is always pressing it down or telling that it is wrong. But now when that teacher inside your brain is not present anymore, you cannot control these, you know, thoughts from, you know, dominating the brain, and once the thoughts dominate, it pushes the behaviors, and when there is no control over behaviors, the act happens.
(1:17:22) So, it is a gradual process, a change that happens over years, and uh one such scenario, you know, when the brain gets the opportunity, it comes out in the form of an act. Doctor, talking about intoxication and substance abuse, now like going by what you said, like people under substance abuse, they actually lose their cognitive capability primarily, and they might indulge in some kind of deviant activities, whether it is rapes, whether it is murder, whether it is any kind of aggressive violent activities. There's a
(1:17:58) possibility of that. Now, today's Gen Z believes that using cannabis and weed has a therapeutic effect. Okay? And there are many people who quote that even on social media or on general social gatherings, they say that they can function very well. They can read or they can study very well during examination situations if they have cannabis.
(1:18:22) Number one. Secondly, people under high level of stress, they say that, "See, I am not addicted to it. I will have it only as a stress buster. I know my limitations. So, only like weekly once or monthly once when I'm in a social gathering." And also because of the socialization process to fit into a particular group of friends who are into cannabis, I also indulge in it, but I'm not addicted to it.
(1:18:51) Now, talking about these scenarios also makes me question that I have seen this phenomena which you have quoted in your earlier podcast about cannabis-induced psychosis. So, what is the understanding about this? Now, the people who supported they also quote some famous and successful personalities or celebrities who indulge in this and they're successful.
(1:19:15) And here you are talking about cannabis-induced psychosis which can have a long-term damaging impact on both physical, emotional, as well as psychological health. Well, so this is this is the greatest difficulty that we find in our practice because every week we at least see one adolescent child being brought by their parents.
(1:19:39) So, what usually happens is the parent starts noticing some changes in the child's behaviors, academics dropping, uh sleeping more, becoming a little aggressive easily, slightest of the things triggering him. And I think gradually over time they realize that they start noticing some dried leaves in this boy's pockets, finding a lighter, finding cigarettes, and then they gradually realize that there is something going wrong, and they bring him to us.
(1:20:12) So, now usually the protocol is I take the consent from the family and I tell them I want to sit with the child personally and talk to him. So, now this child has come so well prepared that he says everything that you said in the question. You know, they tell me that you know, cannabis is safe, cannabis is coming from the plants, it's herbal.
(1:20:33) Yeah, herbal is also quite right. It's natural. It's natural. [laughter] And there are some people who also tell me that >> Nature has given it. >> Correct. Lord Shiva also has done this. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, now the fact is that undoubtedly cannabis is a psychoactive substance, and when it enters into the brain there is a lot of disruption that it does to the neurons.
(1:20:59) So, evidence says that even a single puff of cannabis can disrupt many healthy neurons inside the brain. Now, sometimes the disruption can be temporary, sometimes it can also be permanent. So, now the greatest question here is, is there a medicinal use of cannabis? Because there are developed countries where cannabis is used even in treatments.
(1:21:29) Now, the fact of the matter is cannabis, when we're talking about cannabis or the plant, you know, of cannabis, you know, there are two different elements that come from this plant. You know, one is the THC element which has the psychoactive, you know, you know, power. So, it activates the neurons, it causes a lot of dopamine release in the brain.
(1:21:54) There is also the CBD oil that comes which does not have this high. Right. Which has medicinal use. But now, every individual consuming it for a euphoria or consuming it for a high are using the THC element which is the toxic element. So, now when you take cannabis, your brain gets excessive dopamine. Now, your brain has never produced so much dopamine because regular activities like exercise, eating food, if they are giving you X amount of dopamine, cannabis is known to give you 3X to 4X times of dopamine.
(1:22:37) There have been some studies where on PET scans they have seen the brain with some baseline dopamine levels understanding how natural activities like eating your favorite food, exercising, give uh you know, raise the raise the dopamine from a baseline to 70 to 75%. Activities like indulging in a sexual activity raises it up to 100%.
(1:23:05) And substances like alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, cocaine raise the bar up to 300 to 400%. >> It's almost three times. >> Yes. So, now that kind of a dopamine when your brain starts getting, your brain starts loving it. But now, what's usually happening inside? There is your own dopaminergic factory. But now, since there is excessive dopamine coming from outside, your brain stops temporarily producing it.
(1:23:36) It's something like the day I'm ordering food from outside, I wouldn't be cooking in my house. But over time, this factory also is disrupted. So, that means you cannot make your dopamine anymore. So, you start only relying on this external dopamine. So, this is why I will use it only once in a while does not work because the chemical has a tendency to create an addictive pattern by making these changes where you start depending on this.
(1:24:09) I still remember there was this one boy who was brought into the hospital. So, I still remember this one boy who was once brought into the hospital by his friends. By his own friends? >> Yes. So, what exactly happened was this guy had come down from the US, and he and his friends were partying in a farmhouse, and they were having drugs, and he after consuming some X amount of cannabis suddenly developed some behavioral changes.
(1:24:43) So, now these friends got a little worried, and they called his parents. Fortunately, his parents knew the hospital that we work in because somebody in the family has already got a treat treatment from us. >> [snorts] >> So, immediately the family said, "Okay, you guys are closer to the city. Please take him to this particular hospital.
(1:25:04) " Now, when this guy was brought in, he was extremely aggressive. So, you know, he was tearing his own clothes, he was beating everyone, he was restrained with ropes, and he was brought into the hospital. So, now immediately to calm him down, we had to give him an injection. And we did. >> of injection is that? So, this was something that will calm him down.
(1:25:26) It was like a sedative. So, to calm that excess brain activity that he was having. Now, over the course of treatment after a few days, he started becoming a little normal. The treatment was not yet complete, but the family, you know, started becoming emotional that my son is admitted in a psychiatric hospital, what will the society think? So, let me bring him out from the hospital.
(1:25:53) Now, the family brings him out of the hospital, and the treatment was supposed to be continued, which they promised that they will take care of the treatment at home, but after going home after a couple of days, this boy refused to take any treatment. The parents were also helpless. Now, after a few weeks, something very scary happened in my life.
(1:26:15) This boy comes to meet me, and I thought probably he's come for a consultation, and he was acting very suspicious. He did not want anybody listening to what we were talking. He wanted my duty doctor to step outside. He wanted my nurse to step outside. He wanted to close all the doors. And then he comes closer to me and he whispers.
(1:26:36) He says, "Doctor, that particular day you have given me an injection which is black in color, and since you've given me this injection, the whole of my right side is paralyzed." Now, this guy comes walking. He's already shook hands with me. >> [laughter] >> But he believes that his whole one side is paralyzed. What he tells me is he is [snorts] very sure that his friends wanted to apparently kill him, and they have, you know, come you know, to my hospital, and they made some treaty with me about
(1:27:22) giving him some injection to paralyze him, and that is the reason I have given him this particular injection. So, he's under the hallucination that you have conspired to kill him. Yes. Okay. So, he's clearly having a persecutory delusion now which says that somebody is trying to harm me. Now, he tells me, "Doctor, I will spare you because you're a medical professional, but you need to tell me what is this injection because I'm going to buy this injection and start giving it to all my friends right now because I want them to be
(1:27:53) paralyzed." Now, I tried explaining him. I tried explaining him that you are absolutely fine. You are sitting with me. Your right side is not paralyzed, but he does not believe. So, this typical pattern of not believing what reality is, but living in that own belief system that his brain is producing is a typical psychotic element which happened to him because of the cannabis that he used.
(1:28:26) Now, what really happened after that got me worried to a level where there was a time where I was considering not to continue this profession. Oh my god, it went so bad. Yes. And after a few weeks, what happened was he started coming regularly to the hospital, and he would wait at the main gate. Every time I'm stepping out, he would start walking with me, talking to me, pleading me.
(1:28:56) So, his typical behavior was this. He'd say, "Please, sir. Please, sir. Please, sir. Tell me, sir. Please, sir. Please, sir. Please, sir." Suddenly, he would get aggressive, and he was like, "Will you tell me, or shall I kill you?" And this was the typical pattern that continued till I had to actually take police help, involve his family, where the police had to shift him to another psychiatric uh establishment where he underwent treatment and I do not know if the treatment continued till whenever it was necessary but later I
(1:29:30) got to know from the family that through the treatments through the course of time that psychotic episode gradually reduced. So what really happened there? A brain that was doing better under the influence of the substance got into a psychotic state and in that psychotic state this brain started going into a delusion believing that everybody around him was harming him including his friends including his family including the doctor and he believed that his right side was paralyzed despite being absolutely fine walking into my cabin
(1:30:08) and sitting and talking to me. So this is the kind of disruption a substance like cannabis can be doing to the brain and a lot of these beliefs that youngsters have that you know it is coming from the plant so I can be using it or it is having some cognitive abilities are actually not the reasons why they should be consuming it because there could be some temporary positive change that we see but in the long run it is causing great disruption.
(1:30:43) So it was quite an enriching and enlightening conversation Dr. Virinchi Sharma and I'm sure the insights that you shared and the kind of articulation and varied experiences with patients that you shared with our audience is definitely going to give them a clear sense of direction and also resolve lot of mental dilemmas and traumas that they face on a day-to-day scale. Thank you so much.
(1:31:10) >> Thank you thank you so much for giving me this wonderful opportunity and I thoroughly enjoyed you know every aspect that we discussed today and it's always great seeing you. Thank you. That's your humility. Thank you.
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