How to Read People Before They Manipulate You | Chase Hughes

How to Read People Before They Manipulate You | Chase Hughes

Author Name:Doug Bopst

Youtube Channel Url:https://www.youtube.com/@dougbopst1

Youtube Video URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvpTLRNDEqU



Transcript:
(00:00) What's the earliest sign someone might be dangerous? >> There's two. Uh the biggest one is that you feel fantastic during it during the interaction and you have dopamine spike and then immediately after you feel like so that's a that's the proof that something was happening that that hits all of your buttons and makes you feel really good at the beginning of something and then right afterwards like a you're having a withdrawal.
(00:26) And some people might say, "Oh, well that's with somebody I love to when somebody you love, somebody you love spending time with, right when it's over, you're like, "Wow, that was amazing." Like thinking back on it. So noticing how your own body feels after the interaction is one of the best.
(00:44) Second is when people start having issues and it seems like they have really no problem pushing into boundaries that you have very early on in the conversation. It's one of the biggest red flags there is. And you think it's so hard for people to spot because those feelings at the beginning, they do feel good and you feel good when you're talking to someone like that.
(01:03) >> Yeah. It's like when you join a cult like you have this big dopamine spike and you get in there and then there's the love bombing and there's uh the in talk and you get to have this tribal language and it feels like you're a member of something, the feeling of belonging. So, you get roped in through dopamine.
(01:21) Like, it's the chemical of of cults and it's chemical of like super toxic, dangerous people. >> So, is this one of the ways that manipulators will test someone before they try to control them is to see if they can get them to buy into their BS early on? Yeah, they'll do a couple of test runs and one of the things you'll notice is that they will really when when you're asking one of these people uh any of these questions, one of the things they'll do is everything in their past is someone else's fault.
(01:55) And when they talk about their friends, they're always out of town. They're always like, "Oh, I have a my best friend lives in Milwaukee or in some other state." uh that very frequently don't have local friends or a group of local friends that live somewhere nearby >> and then once they test that person through how like what is the process like from there to go from manipulation into control? >> I think it'd be a different process for a lot of different people.
(02:23) I don't know if there's one process for a lot of that stuff, but it's typically finding out vulnerabilities and then exploiting them. And you'll see microcosms of this within one conversation. You'll see somebody who gets you to talk about how you're super vulnerable around your aunt or or she's your confidant or something.
(02:43) And then later in that conversation, they'll bring it back up as a test. >> Then how can somebody, I guess, know the difference between someone who's just trying to be honest with someone about what they're going through versus someone that's about to potentially manipulate them in a dangerous way. >> That's the weird thing.
(02:59) Uh it it looks very similar. So, it's harder to prove that you're not a psychopath than to prove that you're not mentally ill. So, uh like is he smiling because he's expecting a reward or is he smiling because he's having a good time? One of the best ways that I look at it is how vulnerable is that person willing to be and how uh easy is it for them to say something that might be a little bit embarrassing for most people for or for other people.
(03:30) And then what's what can somebody do? Like the average person maybe isn't trained to read people. Yeah. Like someone like yourself. What is a good like framework that somebody can read someone to make sure they don't get trapped? >> I I would say it's it's tough. Like I people ask me all the time like how would you spot a psychopath? You can't.
(03:47) You really can't. It's it's very tough. Um you see a lot of mismatched facial expressions. You want to look for that. So like when they're talking about something being extremely joyful, they should smile at the same time that they start thinking of it. Not in the middle of the story and then when the happy moment happens, then you see the smile kind of appear on the face.
(04:08) The em real emotions come up when the per when the memory or the the thing comes up that they're excited about. The second one is if you see a lack of all matching. So, like if you're talking about something sad and you just see the person going, "Oh, yeah." And you're not really seeing the like grief on their face or like some kind of shared emotion, you want to spot and look for those things.
(04:32) And you really want to focus on your own body. And this goes especially for women because they're a lot I think a lot more intuitive than we are. And how do you feel after the conversation? And if you ever want to like you don't even need to see study body language. If you watch a video of anybody that you want to watch, anybody getting interviewed, somebody going on Conan O'Brien, look at their body, put your body in the same position that they're in and breathe along with them at that breathing pace.
(05:01) Does it feel comfortable or does it feel like it's it's a performance of some kind? So, just try to like jump into that person's body with some empathy, like how are they feeling right now? I'm going to kind of mirror what that is. I wouldn't do this one-on-one in person. Uh, but I'm saying like this is the best way that you can like learning to read people is like if I matched everything that they're doing right now, how would what would that make me feel? I heard Andy Bamonte on my show talk about the importance of getting a baseline of
(05:30) someone um how can somebody do do you agree that that's a good tactic as well to use to be able to read someone then how can somebody do that? >> Yeah, I think if the stakes are high uh you should be doing a baseline. If if it's low stakes and it's like a social interaction and you're baselining somebody, number one, that's just weird uh socially weird kind of.
(05:54) And number two, you proc mentally processing like, oh, I need to do this baseline of this person pulls your awareness back behind your eyes. It pulls you out from being a human and now I'm analyzing instead of connecting. And that's the big mistake that people make is like I'm doing analysis instead of actually connecting from a human to human standpoint.
(06:16) So I think baselining is great. If you have a job where it's important or there's like you're interviewing a babysitter that's going to watch your kids, that's a big deal. Then baselining is a big deal. going throughout your regular day, if you're a person analyzing other people's behavior, uh, and you're doing it all the time, uh, then a, you're being less of a social person, and b, uh, you're mimicking, and I'm not saying you're you are, but, you're mimicking psychopath uh, behavior, which is separating me further and further and further from the
(06:46) person that's in front of me. And I believe the beginning of all psychopathy is separation. There's a lot of content on the internet about body language, how to tell if someone is about to be manipulated or to control you or lied to you. Um, this is like your bread and butter. What are some of the lies out there about how to read someone's body language? Uh there's a big misconception out there uh called the 93% rule uh where this uh guy I can't remember his name um did this study where he said that 93% of communication is non-verbal.
(07:22) Uh that's not true. Like I can't show you a movie in Uru or Pashtune and say you know what's going on because you you can't speak the language. Uh but the guy his name starts with an M. the guy who did the study didn't intend it that way. And so a lot of people that teach body language are a little bit misinformed where they're they'll try to say that it's way more severe than it is.
(07:49) And when it comes to body language, it's great uh to be able to look at it, but you really just need four things. Um and people will say, "Oh, watch for this hand touching the face or someone scratches their nose and it means they're lying." Or you watch a um I was watching CSI. Someone sent me a clip from a CSI episode where this guy was like, "Oh, he's looking this direction, so he's accessing the creative side of his brain.
(08:15) " That is uh so don't listen to any of that. So you need four things if you want to just start getting good at body language. You want to like is the person opening or closing? Am I seeing aggression or uncertainty? Those are the big four. Opening the body where I'm exposing arteries to the other person. Am I seeing like in the the moment that I mention interest rates, the person's arms kind of start moving in close to their body.
(08:39) So watch whether the body starts or stops protecting arteries. And number two, when it comes to reading people, being a detector of change is better than learning. So you can study every little micro movement and all these facial expressions and all this. If you're good at spotting change, you're better at the expert. You're better than the expert.
(09:01) If I know that what Doug just did with his hand there that is different than what was happening before, I don't need a lot else. I know something is different. And that's all body language ever gives you. It's something's changing. Something's different. And people say, "Let me give you the top three signs of deception." That's that's another big lie.
(09:21) There is no body language for deception. None. What we really want to spot are changes to that person's natural baseline and stress. Am I seeing some kind of stress increasing on the body? So change is huge. Change is always number one. Am I seeing a shift in their behavior? Number two is cluster.
(09:43) Am I seeing just one aberration cuz they've we just walked into a restaurant and the restaurant's got mold in it and this person's like blinking really fast all of a sudden and maybe they have some allergy or something, right? That's one thing. So, we want to look for groups of these behaviors. If we're studying uh their person's actual behavior and then context, somebody leans back and crosses their arms, it might mean that they're being a little bit defensive or protective of their body.
(10:09) It might be because the room is 50°. They might be cold. So, context is really important. And finally, we have culture. So, it's change, clusters, context, culture. So, is there a cultural reason that I'm seeing the behavior that I'm seeing right now? And when I say culture, I don't mean like this guy's from New Orleans, so he's going to act like this.
(10:33) This dude's from the Bronx, so he's going to act like this. Which is true. We can have those differences, but when we talk about culture, a one family can be a culture. Like I grew up with my dad saying certain phrases and like we repeat them. My dad does like weird things when he's telling storytelling around the fire and that kind of thing.
(10:51) I kind of I mimic a lot of those behaviors and those are cultural because it was one family is its own culture. So always consider that. And the final C of these five C's is checklist. Only down at the furthest thing on the bottom is memorizing all these little things on a checklist like oh they button their shirt, they touch their throat, all these little micro movements.
(11:14) So just being good at detecting change is the most profound thing that a person can really teach themselves to do. But keep in mind, the further you pull yourself behind your eyes into your head during a conversation, the less human connection that you're you're going to develop. >> What's the fine line there? Have you found a way to not be too over the top with reading someone? >> Yeah.
(11:40) Uh, I think over time I've I've kind of I do it on accident or by accident now. I just do it unconsciously. And the fine line I don't think there is a line. I think you're you're here or you're not. And I think there's way too much out there that says you're going to meet all these psychopaths and stuff like that. Chances of that are almost zero. Be human.
(12:03) be it live in front of your eyes and let trust your body like your body our mamalian brain doesn't speak any English whatsoever like the amygdala the hypocampus the hypothalamus this big system that we have it can't speak English but it can speak feelings and it can give us like h something's not right but that's the reason that you can't explain what's not right there's no language processing in that part of your brain so pay attention to your own body about people.
(12:35) And if it's a if it's something where you're interviewing a babysitter, that's when you want to you want to prioritize some of these skills. But use it in low stakes environments where you're looking at a barista or you're listening to a person speak. And at the end of the day, and this is a controversial opinion of mine, I think being good at spotting how someone uses language is more important than being able to see how their body moves.
(13:03) Because our language shapes how we view the world, how we define the world. And profiling someone through the use of language, I think, is way more beneficial because number one, you're not staring at them and analyzing. Number two, you have to make eye contact and listen and put yourself into what they're saying to really process the language.
(13:23) So that's the way that I suggest people do it. Get started with understanding what language reveals about us. And I have a thing called the Slate Analysis tool, which I'll give you the PDF if you want to put it down in the in the description so people can download it. And it's free. Um, but just listening to like if I hear you talk about your story and you say, you know, my wife and I fought yesterday, what's the difference between that and my wife and I had an argument.
(13:50) Well, what do you do in a fight? What's your goal in a fight? >> To win. >> To win. So, if I say it's a fight or my wife and I are just at war with each other right now. So, my goal is destruction. Now, my goal is destruction of the other person. So, we think and speak in stories and metaphors and layers.
(14:08) And if you're not paying attention to what's going on, you're not going to hear these words. And there's a uh there's a book by George Loff. I recommend everyone at least tell ChatGpt to summarize it for you, but please get the book if you can. It's it's kind of a fat fat ass book, but it's worth it. Uh it the book is called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things was how we think in in categories.
(14:34) And those were like the first early categories to develop in language. So if I am trying to persuade someone or control you, all I have to do is get you to think in the right category. So like if we're starting a meeting and I said, "Thanks for doing this. This is a really important issue." And I think it comes down to a safety problem.
(14:54) Um and the moment that I say, "Now the category is we're talking about safety." Now, the moment you bring up your paycheck or something else, now I made you look irresponsible and selfish just because I define the context of the interaction. So, now you feel like for just bringing up something that you would have brought up anyway. So, defining the meaning of the interaction.
(15:13) Some people call this a frame. Uh but we're what we're really doing is what is the category that this sits in? What's the metaphor that I'm using to explain things throughout my life? So, if you're sizing someone up or someone's coming in trying to pitch you something for a business or you're try or trying to make you as a friend or something like that, it's the way they talk is like that makes or breaks whether or not you trust them or not.
(15:36) >> Yes. Every time. And how often they flash their eyebrows. Like we we tend to do this. This is our little and if you look back on this when I did it, yours mirrored mine within a tenth of a second. And it's a natural reflex because we we want to be liked. all of us want to be liked. But this is one of those things where we ask for agreement from other people who like, "Oh my god, it was so amazing.
(16:00) " Like, I'm trying to get you to agree with me. But you'll see an excessive amount of this stuff in people who are really performative and they're not really wanting to connect with you. That doesn't mean they're lying. It's like 99.9% of the world is living inside of a performance right now, you know? So, it doesn't mean they're lying, but it means they're doing they're exerting effort to manage your perception of them.
(16:23) And that doesn't mean they're bad. But if I see that go overboard, something's off for me. Or I need to do more work to make the person more comfortable to make them feel like they don't need to do this here. This is not the place for them. This isn't your your networking event that you came from. That's just us hanging out here.
(16:40) >> So, give me an example of how somebody might be overperformative in a conversation. So, there's a few things. Um, you'll see a lot a lot of these eyebrow flashes, you'll see a lot of the gestures that they're using are a little more exaggerated and especially if you have a baseline.
(17:00) Um, but a lot of their language will shift from metaphor to metaphor to metaphor, category to category to category. And this is because they're not thinking in a natural sense. they're thinking in something that they brought up for a pitch or they are managing in the moment. So they're just coming up with different ideas.
(17:18) Once you hear consistent metaphor, consistent uh adjectives, so like the type of adjectives you use like if you say fight over here and the other side then this other thing you say war and then this like so now like I'm see starting to see a pattern. But if all of a sudden we see like and the the goal is not to win, the goal is for us to harmonize with these other people.
(17:39) Wait, what do you mean? You were at war with him a few seconds ago. You think the conclusion of a war is to harmonize and like hold hands. >> So you're hearing these conflicting metaphors. That means that we're hearing conflicting thought. So they haven't this isn't their natural self, which doesn't mean they're lying, but it means you need to pay attention.
(17:56) It's like a metal detector at an airport >> that it goes off at the airport. I don't know if it's a paperclip or an AK-47, but I know that I need to look right there or I know there needs to be some attention on that thing. I think you can tell a lot too. I mean, just based on what you're saying with the I maybe call it the overannouncing effect, meaning somebody who's like, I'm an empath or I'm the most trustful person or I'm the most nice person.
(18:20) I feel like why do you have to announce that you're a good person? Why do you have to announce that you're empathetic? Like there's obviously something underneath. Have you found that found that to be true as well? >> Absolutely. And the biggest one of all. I don't care what people think. >> That's the biggest, right? Um, so that's what's called a uh or what I call a PR campaign.
(18:40) So like they're launching PR before the message comes out to to change the way you perceive it. In 1970, this was cool sales training, right? Um, but they're trying to do what I was just talking about by defining the category and like setting things up from the beginning, but they're doing it unconsciously. It doesn't mean they're lying.
(18:57) So, somebody says, "Oh, I swear to God, stack of Bibles, uh, you know, all of those things. I'm a trustworthy person." That does not automatically mean they're lying. And there's a million things on the internet that say it does. It's absolutely false. You need to go back to the five Cs.
(19:16) Is it a change? Is am I seeing a cluster? What's the context here? If the context is this is a job interview and they're scaredless, okay, that makes sense and it's probably not not deceptive. So, I would go down those five C's every time. >> How can you spot the difference between somebody who's just really insecure? You know, somebody I imagine somebody who's trying to win someone over in the dating world.
(19:36) They're like, you know, I promise like I'm a nice guy. I promise. And and they're not dangerous. They're just very insecure and needy and desperate for a relationship. And I think that's a very important difference because I mean, one could genuinely really hurt and manipulate you and the other one just might not be a good fit for you as a partner.
(19:53) >> Yeah. One of them is going to be more relaxed. Yeah. So, you'll see you'll see more stress in the person that's legitimately insecure. U which I would say was also maybe a huge red flag for the relationship. >> An insecure person can do as much damage as a as a narcissist. >> Um but at the end of the day, what you're really looking for is >> am I seeing the real person or am I able to get to that real person within a few minutes? And that's a lot of what I teach is how do I get this person to be more real and more them and just kind of
(20:27) bring them out. Like I don't want you to agree with me. I want you to be more Doug. Like how do I get you to be more Doug and like not stop worrying forever about performance anytime you're with me? That's my number one goal and that's a lot of what I teach people. And can I go off on a huge tangent here? Yeah.
(20:45) >> Cuz I think it's super important. Have you heard of the French U writer? His name is Sartra. >> Uhhuh. >> He wrote uh this play uh but the play was about something called Sartra's hell or we refer to it as Sartra's hell. Now these three people they find themselves locked in a room and the door opens every few minutes but none of them leave because they need something from one of the other three people.
(21:12) They need to be seen a certain way. And if they don't get seen a certain way, uh, they they can't they can't live. They can't live with themselves. They can't bear it. They ha I have to be seen as a good person. I have to be seen as a good mother. All these things. So, there's a guy in there. I can't remember the character's name.
(21:31) He goes up to this one woman and he's like, "Please tell me that I'm a I'm a good father and I'm a good person." And she says, "You're a great father and you're a good person." But it's not satisfying for him. He he stays in the room because he knows she lies. And there's another woman who refuses to even speak to anyone uh and is always honest and he's afraid to ask her.
(21:59) But the hell is needing to be seen by other people who don't have stakes in the game. The other woman just wants to be liked. So she tells him, "Of course you're a good father. You're a great person. You're a good human being. She has stakes. She has something to lose from saying the opposite, right? So she's trying to gain something from him by saying that.
(22:21) So what what Sartra is describing is actual hell. And Sartra in his own quote said, "Hell is other people." And he doesn't mean like people are and people suck. What he's trying to say is we are in a world that is so effing performative right now. Uh, and I mean a 100 years ago this was still relevant that just think about this for one second.
(22:45) So anybody watching just think about this and see if you'll agree with it. Everybody's performing. We're we're in a pandemic of loneliness right now. Pandemic levels of loneliness. And if I know that I'm kind of faking it a little bit and I'm performing for people and I need people to see me a certain way that's going to change how I behave.
(23:06) If I'm in a room full of people and I hear, "Oh, Chase, you did a great you had a great video. You had a great blog the other day, great podcast or whatever." I know for a fact that I can't accept any of those things because none of those people have ever seen me. They've only seen a performance. So then I go home and I perform.
(23:30) I pretend to be the good dad and walk around and like throw my kids in there with a big smile on my face and my wife comes up and says, "God, I love you so much. I know for a fact that she doesn't love me. She's never met me." So, we have millions of people that have never been met and they can't receive a compliment from anyone because they know it's fake.
(23:56) They know that any kind of love or affection they get is not toward the real me. They're rewarding my performance. So, you can't really feel good about it. So, it's hard to feel connected to a even standing in a room full of people's no one's ever seen you. No one's se seen the real you.
(24:15) And that's that's the hell that Sartra was talking about. >> That's dark. >> Yeah. So, how do you how do you get to the place where you are the real you so that when you go home and you're interacting with your kids, that love from your wife feels real or from somebody watches your video and you're like, you know, that video like really impacted me. Like, well done.
(24:36) Like, how does somebody get to that point? >> I think the answer could fit on a post-it note. So most people will overlook what I'm about to say, but it is a a gradual it's not some overnight thing like do 10 meditation things in a cold plunge and you'll be you'll be good to go. You it is a gradual adjustment to being comfortable with social injury.
(25:01) I'm more comfortable every day being socially injured and receiving injury. So if you go back to Sartra's hell, the door opens to this room. They can walk out any time. So the willingness to to leave the room is the willingness to stop needing to be seen a certain way from other people. That's all it is.
(25:24) And some of that means that I'm going to receive a social injury because if I if I'm really embarrassed about a time that I myself in third grade or something, I'm not going to ever talk about that, which happened to me. But I'm never I'm never going to mention it because it's going to make me seen a certain way.
(25:41) And I'm always kind of navigating this little performance and just identifying where I'm performing and what is that really protecting me from? What is the real nasty big monster that this performance is protecting you from? >> When it comes to connection, I think one of the most important things is can you be yourself around that person? Like I think that's what people want at the end of the day.
(26:03) I mean whether they actually get there or not. I mean I'm sure there's a spectrum there of sometimes they're overp performing and sometimes they're just being themselves. How how do you teach people to get the natural version of them out in the best way possible? Today's episode is brought to you by Momentus. In this episode, we're going to be talking a lot about deception and knowing who you can trust.
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(27:40) That's live momentous.com and use code adversity for up to 35% off your first order. Now, back to the show. >> Well, this will probably be a plant medicine uh discussion here. I think I don't think there's a lot you can do as a human that that is as fast as doing like a big medically supervised legal like psychedelic journey.
(28:04) And I mean, Johns Hopkins is reporting on this, Mayo Clinic's reporting on this, that it it the moment you do a a journey with one of these things, the first big realization that almost everybody has, maybe it's universal, but you're kind of like going into this thing, you're like, "Oh, I thought all of that stuff was a big deal.
(28:25) I thought I was such a big deal. I was a big deal." and it kind of like just zooms your ass out like you have this little GoPro that's like right here all day 247 and it just like puts it into outer space. So you're like, "Whoa, I'm I'm just this thing." And that's okay. That's okay. It doesn't mean I'm small. It doesn't mean I'm insignificant.
(28:46) It just means nothing's that big of a deal, including me. U and I've seen this the most profound transformation in people that have gone through it. But I also think the other way is really good. So, how do I get good at making other people feel like they're seen for the first time? And if we think I need if I think I need armor and and like a performance so somebody won't see the hidden side of everything, what's the first emotion I'm going to have if that armor starts opening? It's fear, >> right? So, the moment that someone in front of you starts becoming themselves
(29:19) or starts like revealing who they actually are, it's an immediate fear response. So the number one thing that n that everyone on this planet is starving for right now is to be witnessed instead of like analyzed and to be seen without judgment. Like the little stupid that we all hide and the thing that we think, "Oh, that's just me that does that.
(29:43) I'm the only one that hides this little thing that I'm really ashamed of." It's everyone. It's universal. And why do we like Joe Rogan? Why do people like Rogan? because he's just real. It's it's there's no performance there. And we all kind of watch that because like, oh man, I wish I could I could do this.
(30:03) I wish I could I could kind of be like that. So, if you can talk to somebody and admit something yourself at the very beginning of a conversation, it's going to kind of give that person a little permission to do the same thing. And the moment someone feels seen and and I I will promise you there there are people right now that are going to die at 95, die at 98 years old and they've never once been seen in their entire life.
(30:29) This is the majority of people are never going to be seen. Not one time even by their children or by their spouse. They've never been met the real them. So this is like a in my estimation a sacred thing that you could you could do for people just that witnessing with no judgment whatsoever. >> And it's subtle the things you can do even today you know I'm coming down recording at your beautiful studio.
(30:52) We've known each other for a few years never met in person and you call me and you're like hey man you need a ride like do you need a ride to the studio? I'm like no. It was just like comforting right because a lot of times you show up to these interviews and you're just meeting the guest at the studio.
(31:06) You record >> Yeah. And that's it. I mean, we've been sitting here for a few hours, you know, just waiting for everything to get set up, just chopping it up, connecting as friends. >> And I think it's the subtle things that make a difference. Going back to what you said at the beginning, this can also be a form of manipulation.
(31:21) If you're trying to be vulnerable and kind of share, how can someone not become a manipulator by trying to do this thing that can be so good? It should it should make you almost cry if you're doing it well because like you're seeing because the moment that you see the like deep humanity in another person, the first thing that starts happening is you're like, "Oh, that's me.
(31:47) " Like you're seeing the rawness inside another person, all the shame, all the stuff that's going on inside of them. You you kind of like do a double take. You're like, "Whoa, that's all of my too. That's all of me." Uh so you you really see your own humanity in the other person. And if you're not seeing humanity in other people and you like have this like Excel spreadsheet of like a flowchart of like if they do this then do that and then do that that is sociopath.
(32:14) Very much sociopathic. >> I learned recently that sociopaths are the most dangerous form of toxic people. Would you agree with that? Uh Scott Rouse uh is kind of an expert in this stuff and I think he said I may be misquing him but I think he said the other day that sociopaths are more likely to commit harm to other people and psychopaths are more likely to like seek out these weird powerful things where they can rule over people instead of harm or like do some kind of harm.
(32:41) I may be getting that backwards completely but I would I would have Scott Ross on the show for sure. You should get him on. >> Yeah, I'd love that. Um, in the context of just being fake, like what's a can some is there a way for someone to tell if someone secretly dislikes them in conversation? >> Yeah, there's some there's some anecdotal research on this.
(33:00) Uh, this guy named Paul Ecman did the research and they're called micro expressions. So, a lot of it is like you'll see this expression of contempt, which is the only asymmetrical facial expression that's real. So, like when one side of the mouth goes up, oh, hey, man. Like, you'll see those little contempt uh expressions throughout the conversation or when you first see them.
(33:23) But you'll also see those barely perceptible expressions of contempt the moment you talk about a a recent success that you've had. Dude, I just closed this big ass deal and we made this much money and it's like so amazing. Your friend goes, "Oh, yeah, cool." And you see contempt instead of joy. That's the number one thing to look for.
(33:43) They even did a study on this. I can't remember the dude who did it, but they looked at wedding photos of a couple right before or right after they got married. And they could predict uh divorce with almost 100% accuracy based on a contempt facial expression on one of any one of the people that are in there, the bride or groom.
(34:05) They could predict divorce based on a little facial expression. >> It was the Gottmans. I think the Gottman's study >> it might have been >> may have been their studies. I think they the contempt is one of the four horsemen they call them. There's three other ones. I'm uh don't remember the three others off the top of my head where they can predict divorce at such a high rate.
(34:19) >> Yeah. Disgust was was the other. >> Yeah. Based on how they tell somebody talks to someone. I think when it comes to like manipulators and people that are have ill-intentioned um there's like this sense of bravado, dominance. Um but I think if you're good, you can spot the insecurities.
(34:39) What are some of the the ways someone can do that? >> I think the insecurities. When you spot insecurities in someone else, what you want to look for is a decorator crab decorations. So, you know what a de decorator crab is? >> Uh, it's like a crab and it's got a big ass shell on top of it. And they'll go around and find interesting objects and stick and stick it up onto their under their shell.
(35:00) And this comes from Greg Hartley. That was I think he invented the the metaphor here. So, a lot of what you're seeing when you're seeing people that are insecure are these protective mechanisms at work. So, if I can spot someone's mask, it's going to tell me what's going on inside. So, if somebody is really pretend alpha male, their posture is overdone, their volume's overdone, they like do the big shoulder tap kind of a thing.
(35:27) Why are they wearing that mask? So the reason someone wears a mask is to protect something inside that's the opposite of that mask. So is that person really really dominant or are they scared? That's fear. So we're seeing now when I see these people that are like that have these certain behaviors I know that's a scared child who formed this behavior in elementary middle school in response to a bunch of life events that was going on in their life.
(35:58) And this evolved into this adult who looks like a a golf course and uh driving like an on the freeway or something. So a lot of what we see when we see like these people, why do they do that? Why why do they act like that in public? You're looking at armor that was built when they were like 8 years old. So if you understand what what I'm looking at as the armor, you automatically can understand what it's protecting.
(36:29) So if I have somebody that is all about community, everything they talk about is like, oh, I'm on this team. I'm a member of this organization. Uh we have this many kids in our family. All they talk about is like membership and groups and how they belong to all these people and how many friends they have and all this stuff.
(36:43) What's the fear? Abandonment. But they want you to see that they've never been abandoned, right? So they develop this as a kid. It's these little things we developed as kids. And it's typically forms out of three things. What did you do as a kid to feel safe? What did you do to make friends? And what did you do to get rewards? And like and rewards I mean like affection, praise, people celebrating you, mom and dad are clapping over the report card, that kind of thing.
(37:11) So friends, safety, and reward, those things kind of form our little adult behaviors. And we don't realize as kids, we've got a backpack with 90 lbs of in it that we're bringing into adulthood that's going to be like in my work life. So like when I see somebody at work who's 42 and she keeps doing this one thing and keeps doing this thing, that's an 8-year-old who's just still kind of doing the exact same stuff.
(37:37) I think if we're honest, it's easy to spot. Like your gut just tells you immediately if something's weird. Like if I were to come in here today and be like, "Oh my god, this is the best studio I've ever been in. Oh my god, that's the coolest looking dog. Chase, you're the best YouTuber that I know.
(37:52) I mean, he'd be like, "Something's off." >> Yeah. >> Like, why is he doing this? You know, it's it's I I think people know. I just think that >> as humans, we're naturally taught to see the good in people and to be kind and we're fearful and we don't want to like take action and protect ourselves when it's necessary. >> Yeah.
(38:14) And that and that that was uh once we have an identity around somebody or a feeling around somebody, we typically won't really go back and change it a lot unless something huge happens. But if I started the conversation and I'm like, "Oh, he's a pretty good guy." And then I got more manipulative and more manipulative, now my brain has to either say, "I'm a dumbass for believing that or no, he's probably still a good guy.
(38:37) " And I mean it in in psychology we call this the sunk cost fallacy. Like I've invested so much I'm going to stay. There's there's people in relationships that are abusive as hell. Uh that are still there. Like I've invested so much I don't know where else I'm going to go. Uh I've kind of gone down the road too much.
(38:57) So we have this cognitive dissonance that really keeps us in political beliefs in ideologies and relationships. It kind of locks us down. So, in the context of like interrogating someone, like what's the goal? Like what are you trying to do to someone's mind to get them to kind of conform to the outcome that you want? We want them to feel safe and it's the same thing that we would we would do with anybody.
(39:19) And there's there's five steps basically. Uh in if and this is you're not after a confession, right? For in interrogation, you should be after the truth, not a confession. this then there's a difference right so if the person's guilty then yeah the confession should be the ultimate end goal so in interrogations just think of like what's the biggest fear of human beings people say public speaking right but the biggest fear is judgment like I'm not scared to go walk up on a stage and stand in front that's not scary to
(39:50) anybody the scary part is the people that are looking right it's the judgment I'm going to receive from all these it's the what what do we call it a few minutes ago social injury is the biggest fear so the first step of this uh interrogation protocol is socialize. So, I'm going to socialize whatever happened.
(40:08) I'm going to say, Doug, you know, it's I think when people hear your story and hear what actually happened, the steps that you had to go through and all the stuff that you've been through in your life, they're people are going to understand why this happened. So, now I'm starting to pump down that little fear uh module.
(40:26) And then the second thing is this is a huge deal. I'm going to get made fun of. I'm going to be ostracized. this is going to blow up and my life's going to be over. So the second step is minimize. So socialize then minimize. So I'm going to keep talking. I'm gonna say and honestly Doug I I deal with bad people every day. That's my job.
(40:46) And if there's one thing I can tell you is when I meet a bad person I know it. And I know you're not a bad person. I know that this might have been a mistake that you made but that doesn't make you a bad person. And I've seen people that have done way worse than you completely just get over this. This is not a huge lifestoppping issue.
(41:03) I can guarantee you and I deal with this all the time. That's minimize. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> And the next one is Yeah. Uh helping you to manage it in front of other people. So now I rationalize. So the rationalize is and Doug, anybody looking at you, let's say you stole money from your employer. So anybody looking at you, they saw the situation.
(41:24) I've I've already talked to the people you work with. They all love you. They I've talked to them and I know y'all don't make enough money. The employer's basically taken a lot of money from you. Uh the employer doesn't pay you well enough. They work you overtime and they make you work overtime without giving you the right amount of money.
(41:43) And you know, to be honest, I know that you've got an aunt that has uh stage three cancer and her medical bills are piling up and I think it makes sense anybody in this situation would have done the same thing. with all those things lining up, anybody would have done this. And then we project at the very end, and this isn't your fault.
(42:04) You were pushed into a corner and you did the one thing that good people do. You took a chance to help one of your family members. And then the final step is this alternative question like, did you do this crazy thing or did you just make a mistake? And that basically sounds like um we'll go with the same example. And Doug, at the end of the day, I just need to know one thing.
(42:27) Um, is this something you've been doing for several years in a row? Uh, because that's a whole another story because if it is, then we're we have to have a different conversation. But if you did this this this one time, that's not a big deal. And I need to know that it was just this one time. >> And then then it's like an admission of guilt though at that point, right? >> Yeah.
(42:47) And I I don't ever say this isn't this isn't illegal. So what I'm saying, it's not a big deal. People get over it. So socialize, minimize, rationalize, project an alternative question. So people understand it's not a big deal. It totally makes sense. It's not your fault. Are you a monster or did you make a mistake? That's kind of like the big five steps.
(43:07) >> Are you familiar with Chris Voss's work? >> Yeah. >> I don't know where you stand as far as his >> I I'm not familiar with the whole bunch. >> Okay. >> Vaguely. I had him on the show years ago and one of the things this this reminded me of he calls it tactical empathy where you want to make that person feel heard and seen but that's tactical like there's a method behind it.
(43:28) You're not just sitting there listening. You're trying to move the needle towards what you want. >> Yeah. >> And that reminded me of as you were like laying that out. I was like, "Oh, I can see like why even in movies or in shows where I've seen interrogation and stuff like why they try to make the person like for instance not feel like a bad person.
(43:46) " Cuz the end of the day, I would imagine that that person if they've committed a crime like that, all they're thinking about is how bad of a person they are, how bad of a human. So, if you can get them to not think that, not feel that way, you like lower their guard a bit to be able to open up and and answer more of what you want. >> Yeah. Absolutely.
(44:03) And this this started back in the 40s50s. There's a German interrogator, his name is Hans Sharf, and he was the OG dude. So if you studied any interrogation today, it's based off of Sharf's techniques. He was kind of the first guy to say, "Hey, what if we're not a uh and to these guys and like what if we actually like talk to them like human beings?" So he would take prisoners out like PS and take them on these five mile walks through nature and talk to them and um actually develop a relationship a a conversational relationship with them.
(44:40) So he's the guy who did this and he he's the founder of all modernday techniques of interrogation are based on Sharp's techniques. And if you ever go to you've been to Disney World >> Yes. You know, the giant entryway when you go in through the main gate is a giant colored tile mosaic. >> Yes. >> Hans Sharf made that.
(45:00) >> Really? >> That's a whole story for another day. But yeah, >> that's wild. >> Yeah. So, I think one of people's biggest fear is that they're being something somebody's hiding something from them like in a relationship. Would these inter would that interrogation protocol work in a relationship setting or um would you advise someone do things a little bit differently to find out if someone's hiding something whether they've stolen, cheated, etc.
(45:25) ? >> Yeah, I I would say that the number one thing is ask a few really good questions and you can ask the same almost the same word for word questions that you might use in an interrogation. like and you don't want to say did you do this because anytime somebody makes an a denial the next denial is more confident and more confident and more confident.
(45:46) So you want to avoid the direct did you do this question but more a better question is called a bait question. So let's say there was like a murder last night and I know that you probably did it. I called you into the station and uh I would set up the bait question so that you feel like the stakes are really really high. So here's how I do that.
(46:12) I set stakes and then I ask the question. So if I hold up a picture of a duck and say, "All right, I want you to tell me you're looking at a picture of George Washington." You're like, "All right." Then the stakes aren't high. So stakes increases behaviors. If I can raise the stakes, I'm going to raise the behaviors that come out of a person.
(46:32) So, the stakes, I might raise the stakes. I'm going to say, Doug, I appreciate you coming into the station here. U we've got about 38 officers that are canvasing the streets and going doortodoor talking to everybody they possibly can. Um, and I think you're a good person. I've just talked to a couple of your co-workers uh down there from 7-Eleven, and they all love you.
(46:53) They think you're a great guy. And I just want to say thank you for coming in. I know it's a Saturday, so I do have one question for you and I want you to think really hard before you answer the question. Please think hard because we're getting in a lot of data. These these police officers are scanning the entire area doing everything they can.
(47:12) Is there any reason whatsoever that we have a video showing your vehicle in that area? And you know now that if you were there and the moment that you say no, you're effed. You're done. But if you say yes, then you can maybe try to explain it away. Yeah, I pulled through there and nobody was home, so I left right away.
(47:39) Whatever you can explain it. So the bait question is brilliant because to an innocent person, they're like, "Nope, not at all." But to a guilty person, they don't know what evidence that we've collected. And what I've done is I've set up the mental image of your head of these cops going and getting all this evidence and bringing it in.
(48:00) So now you don't know what I know. And I'm asking you the bait question. So I did not say we have a video of you. I just asked, is there any reason that somebody would have a video of your vehicle in that area last night? Any reason at all? And then now you've got to just have that that moment. So the bait question is fundamental amazing.
(48:24) And the punishment question is is one that I think everybody should memorize is what do you think should happen to the person that that does something like this or did this? What should happen to the person that did this? Those are great with kids and they're great with adults. The punishment question. The >> punishment question.
(48:40) Yeah, >> that's a good one. Um, I think like master manipulators are good at making the other person question or not trust their own judgment. What are some ways they do that so that the other person on the other side of that can can pay attention? >> There's a billion ways that they might do that.
(49:01) I could tell you how to defend against it. That would be that would be probably way easier. >> Yeah. >> Um, number one is recap. So, somebody's like trying to make you doubt your judgment and they said, 'Well, you did this and you did this. You just recap what they said. It's like, Doug, let me get this straight. Uh, what you just said was that I haven't done this.
(49:19) I haven't done this and I haven't done this. Is that right? So, you make them say it again. And that brings whatever they're doing out into the light. They're hoping that you don't re re-examine any of that. So, that's number one. Number two is use the it sounds like phrase. And this is like, Doug, I've known you a long time.
(49:38) You're a good guy, and it sounds like you're asking me to feel guilty about this. And I I'm sure that probably wasn't your intent. You automatically say like, "It seems like you're trying to make me feel fear, obligation, guilt, confusion, make me confused about this thing." But you you give them all the credit, but like it's probably my mistake.
(49:59) I might have misinterpreted how you how you said that. Could you say it again? And now you now you make him say it again after having said that is one of the best absolute best. And just getting clarity that's that's like I would say that's your go-to weapon is clarity because anyone that's a manipulator is allergic to clarity because what they're going to thrive in is little ambiguities that your brain's going to feed off of.
(50:27) Little mind viruses like somebody comes in and says, "Hey, the boss really wants to talk to you. That's a mind virus when you're like, "Oh, what did I do?" You know, "Did I clock in late last weekend?" And meanwhile, it's nothing. But someone's facial expression makes you think that there's some big serious thing going on.
(50:44) But what makes it scary? Ambiguity. It's always ambiguity that makes things terrifying or confusing or uh make you feel weird obligation or guilt or fear. So, every single time that you suspect some of that's going on, you should get someone to a give me a recap of that. B, it this sounds like you're trying to make me feel X, which I don't think is you at all. Maybe I misinterpreted that.
(51:10) And C, the third technique is to openly say exactly what's going on and then ask him to restate it. And you just say what's going on right now. Like, Doug, we've been sitting here for a couple of hours. We've had a great conversation. And all of a sudden, I just hear this and then I'll just say exactly what you said.
(51:28) I said, 'I think that I misinterpreted that. Could you just walk me through that one more time? So, you're just saying what's going on and then asking for a recap. And that makes it twice as hard for them to resist kind of going back through it. And nine times out of 10, if the person's manipulative, they'll a have a hard time doing it and b when they do the recap, they'll soften it.
(51:48) So, they'll change the way that everything looks because you're asking for clarity. A person who's not manipulative will like, "Oh, oh no, I didn't mean that at all." And they'll go right back through and kind of like detail exactly what they just said. >> How important is uh maintaining your composure and body language when approaching someone you think is hiding something from you? >> I think it's critically important.
(52:13) Uh because you when you look like prey, you activate predators. Like when a brown bear comes up on you like all the state park rangers are gonna say like don't run. Do not run away because the moment you look like prey, you turn on the predator. So if my composure is way off and I look super nervous in a meeting and then I'm trying to say, "Hey, why don't you walk me through that again?" Somebody be like, "Nah, go yourself.
(52:42) " You know, it's going to be like not a big deal. They don't care. So composure, you don't have to be in charge. You don't have to have all this authority and status in the room, but being more calm than the other person will always give you an upper hand that that they don't have. So always like people compete on status and money and and all this other crazy crap that the western world competes on.
(53:04) Compete on comfort. Try to out comfort everybody around you. Spend a week doing that. Can I be more comfortable than the other person across the table from me? And if you can do that, you're going to get better and better and your skills will just start developing on your own. You're like, "Oh my god, how did I do that?" It it wasn't a technique.
(53:21) It wasn't what you said. You were just more comfortable than the other person was. That's all that you had to do. So, so many of these skills, like imagine if I had a a $10 million sales script, like the best sales script that's ever been written, and I give it to somebody with really bad social anxiety. The sales script sucks now because it's never the script.
(53:43) It's never the words and the tactics and all that. It's more along the lines of who who am I delivering this right now? Who is the person reading that script, going through that script? So, we tend to like over prioritize these scripts and techniques and little methods and stuff, sound bites. It's a lot more about who is defining the interaction which which helps us like with categories like I can put the category forward right away.
(54:13) Uh and who is more calm and if you want to add a third layer on there you will be in charge who whoever needs less from the interaction will control the interaction. Whoever needs the other person or needs the other person's behavior the least controls the interaction. This is the same in relationships, same in business, negotiations, lawsuits, all of that.
(54:36) >> I would imagine it's also important for people to practice emotional control techniques on their own so that when things do kind of get a little charged up, your body doesn't react as much. I mean, I've gotten back into meditation. I open up my waking up meditation app. I put on a 10-minute meditation. >> Yeah.
(54:55) >> Um, and it allows me to stay present, calm my mind. fitness is really important to me. Good relationships. Like would you agree that having practices like that are crucial, you know, outside of these techniques and we can talk about these all day, but you know what you do on the the rest of the time I think matters too, right? >> Yeah.
(55:16) And like do you have the skill of being bored? That's what meditation is. Like >> can I force myself to be bored for a little while? >> And that kind of calms you down. And if if you want to look at like the reason meditation works, the reason psychedelics work so well, the reason that like somebody goes to some badass seminar and their whole life has changed. It's not techniques.
(55:40) It's not, oh, I need to like I'm going into this meeting, I need to do box breathing for the first 15 seconds and then tighten my Keele muscles when they're doing this one part of the meeting. It's always perspective, camera angle. So, if I do enough meditation, I'm going to realize that a lot of this stuff isn't as big a deal as I think it is.
(56:01) It's just if I know how to shift perspectives, then I own so much of my life. I I automatically get it back because I can understand perspective of what's going on. So, if like somebody's like learning all these like go let's say somebody goes to the six week course on how to control their emotions. At the end of that, what changed? It's just perspective.
(56:22) the amygdala is still there. The same adrenaline, the same body responses might still be there. But if I don't see it as a threat, what changed? It's just my perspective on the issue. The issue is the same. I'm looking at it with a different camera angle. Speaking of perspective, like flipping this conversation on its head, you know, I think at the end of the day, people's ability to charm someone or to get them to feel comfortable in a situation, I think it's really important like in business and relationships, building connection, as long as it's being done,
(56:51) I think, in an authentic way where you're not the end goal isn't to necessarily take something from that person. Like what are what are some ways in conversation and connection that you think you can like authentically make that person feel good about themselves? so that you have a better chance of building a relationship with them.
(57:08) >> Uh number there's a few but and we definitely don't have time to go into all a couple of great ones are somewhere near the beginning of the conversation you can make a a observational commentary on how most people are wearing these masks and not being their real self. Then what's the other person going to do when you're like point outwardly and you're saying all these people there's so many people who are just afraid to be themselves.
(57:30) They live in this little prison of worrying about what everybody's going to think and that they're people that they wouldn't even invite into their house and they're worried about what they're going to think. Just acknowledging that brings so much of that person out where they realize, wow, this is somebody that's that is going to allow me to be more of me.
(57:52) So, anytime with a client, like if you're my client, uh I I work with like high-end executives. I work with Fortune 100 people. And when I see all these people, they're all like, "Oh, I've worked with coaches. I've worked with this." What they've done with all these coaches is develop the perfect PR campaign for their problems.
(58:11) So, they'll come and tell me all these things that they're they're going through and stuff. Uh it's never the main issue. The main issue comes down to perspective and how you're seeing the world and how much of you is showing up. That's it. That's it. There's nothing else. Because somebody said, "Oh, I'm I have this big merger coming up.
(58:31) I'm selling my company for $1.2 billion. We have this big valuation coming up." Well, is it a is it going to end your life? No. And like you keep asking these questions like let's say cognitive behavioral therapy. What's the end of the road there? It's just a shift in perspective. So my number one goal when I start working with any client is I want Doug here.
(58:53) I don't want the PR campaign that you've used with every other coach that's tried to help you that you said were not successful and I want you to be comfortable be bringing you back to the company and then you're like well the real me wouldn't wear a suit. I'm like no more suits don't ever wear a suit again. Uh and they're like well but this thing and now you're worried about social injury again.
(59:15) And then we get back to perspective again. So it's a perspective how much of me am I allowed to show loop almost all of our problems. So like if if you think of PTSD it's a perspective issue of like how I'm viewing that that situation and if I go on a big mushroom journey or the ketamine medically supervised journey what shifts the event doesn't change.
(59:40) It's just how I'm how I'm looking at the event. The camera angle shifts. Uh so like so much of our problem is that so everybody thinks they have these like 19 problems. It is I'm looking at something the wrong way and not enough of me is present in the situation or or feels like it's safe to come out. >> We've covered so much ground today.
(1:00:02) Um if you could leave the audience with three rules that you want people to live by for reading people, what would they be? >> For reading people. >> Yeah. >> Get really good at detecting change. Number two, listen to the story that that a person is living inside of and they're revealing through their words without anybody knowing it.
(1:00:24) Because nobody around you can hear any of the stuff. But if you listen closely, you'll hear that person's in a tragedy. This one's in a reluctant hero. This one's in the hero's journey. This one's in the wounded healer uh path right now. You're going to hear all these arc types throughout somebody's speech and they don't they never change.
(1:00:42) So, like if I'm selling something to you and you're in the wounded healer category, but I'm saying, "Dude, this is going to make you so badass." And I'm pitching the hero's journey, but you're a wounded healer, right? Uh, understanding people's story is really important a to be just a good person, and it's fascinating to understand what like what's going how their software works.
(1:01:03) And three, and this is like I don't know if it's a post-it note size thing. If you want me to go ahead and just I'll throw it out there in 30 seconds or less. Everyone you've ever met in your life has a fake version of you in their head. Everyone. No one has the real Doug inside of their head. Not one person.
(1:01:25) So if like everyone you've ever met, the version of Doug that comes out of their head and like stood in a room together and looked at each other and shook hands unrecognizable. They wouldn't recognize each other. Think about the the you that your grandma knew growing up versus the you that I know or the you that uh you just interviewed Hunter Biden that Hunter knows.
(1:01:48) Th those people wouldn't understand that they're the same looking at each other. They're two different virtual reality representation of me inside of somebody else's head. Always know that you are communicating from a point of whatever virtual person they have in their head that represents you. And part of grief, the big part of grief is when that grandmother passed away.
(1:02:10) That grandmother who saw you as like this smart little handsome boy and your parents knew you like you were kind of a dummy, but your grandma saw you smart and capable and all this other stuff. When she passed on, that version of you died. And that's a lot of our grief is knowing that that version of me is never going to see the light of day again.
(1:02:30) Is also dead with that person. So always understand there is a render of me inside of that person's head. And if if they are rendering me as a salesperson, I might say something really genuine and it sounds like a sales tactic. If their render of me is as a human being who's cool, wants to hang out with them.
(1:02:48) I'll say the exact same line and it comes across absolutely different. So keep in mind that that rendering issue. >> Chase, thanks so much for coming back on the pod. I think my audience is going to get a ton of value out of our conversation. Me too. I hope so.